Conversation 39 - Motivational Interviewing for Staying Grounded When Headlines Aren't...

When the headlines won’t quit and the room feels charged, how do we stay grounded, ethical, and genuinely helpful? We sit down with counselor educator and MI trainer Kim Barrella to explore motivational interviewing as more than a technique—it’s a way of being that centers autonomy, partnership, and compassion, even when politics enter the session. Together, we unpack how MI helps clients and clinicians navigate anger, fatigue, and moral distress without slipping into persuasion or avoidance.

Kim shares how complex reflections and thoughtful summaries can transform ambivalence—from “I’m stuck” to “I have choices”—and why that shift matters for LGBTQIA+ clients facing policy pressure and minority stress. We talk about aligning our work with shared ethical codes while protecting client trust, and how MI naturally complements modalities like CBT, DBT, and EMDR. You’ll hear practical language for real scenarios: responding to polarization in session, handling direct questions about your views, and finding sustainable actions when doomscrolling drains your energy.

This conversation also moves beyond the therapy hour. We explore using MI in supervision and leadership, naming the push-pull of advocacy, and building resilience through small, values-aligned steps. If you’ve been craving a clearer path through uncertainty—one that honors dignity, reduces burnout, and keeps the focus where it belongs—this episode offers tools and encouragement to carry into your next session.

If this resonates, share it with a colleague, subscribe for more thoughtful conversations, and leave a review to help others find the show. What MI move helps you stay present when the world feels loud?

Resources  from the episode:

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https://www.navigatecounseling.org/

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If you’re a counselor in Ohio and would like to get involved as part of production or as a guest, or know someone who might be interested, please email us at ohiocounselingconversations@gmail.com!

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Created by the OCA's Media, Public Relations, and Membership (MPRM) Committee & its Podcast Subcommittee

·Hosted by Marisa Cargill

·Pre-Production & Coordination by Marisa Cargill & Victoria Frazier

·Editing by Marisa Cargill

·Original music selections by Elijah Satoru Wood

Transcript

Setting The Stage In Ohio

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Today's episode is one we've been really looking forward to, especially given the moment we're all practicing in. We're joined by Kim Borella, a licensed professional clinical counselor with supervisory designation and the director of clinical services at Navigate Counseling and Consultation Services, a practice specializing in affirming care for LGBTQIA plus individuals, relationships, and families. Kim is a doctoral candidate in counselor education and supervision at Kent State University, where she teaches undergrad and graduate coursework in counseling, ethics, and motivational interviewing. She's also a member of the motivational interviewing network of trainers, and her work spans clinical practice, supervision, counselor education, and leadership at the national, state, and local levels. If you've been practicing for any length of time, you know that motivational interviewing is often introduced as a set of skills or an evidence-based approach. But what we really wanted to explore with Kim today is how MI functions as a stance when the world feels heavy, polarized, and uncertain. Especially here in Ohio, where counselors are supporting clients impacted by policy shifts, minority stress, access barriers, and growing fatigue within our profession. In this conversation, we're talking about what it looks like to practice MI in the midst of socio-political stress, how counselors can remain grounded and ethical when advocacy and clinical work intersect, and how MI can support not just our clients, but us as clinicians navigating burnout, moral distress, and professional identity issues. Whether you're an experienced MI practitioner or someone who's still finding your footing, this episode is about staying human, collaborative, and value-centered in the therapy room and beyond. Let's get into it. Cam, thank you so much for joining us. We are so excited to have you here today at Ohio Counseling Conversations and have this really meaningful conversation. Again, thank you for being with us today.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Yeah, thank you for having me. I have been really looking forward to talking to you about all things MI.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Yeah, yeah. So before we get into some of that conversation, do you mind sharing with us a little bit about yourself and your journey into counseling and the profession?

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Yeah, that's a really good question to start right off the bat, right? So I can't remember the last time I was asked to like how did you get to where you are kind of thing. So I guess thinking back, I was studying speech language pathology and audiology in undergrad. And I was taking a communication disorders course, and the instructor was talking a little bit about children with autism and communication, and that like really stuck with me. That I really was drawn to like the idea of helping people communicate to their loved ones.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

And at the time, I wasn't really thinking about it in this way, but I wasn't really drawn to like the technical or like the science-y part of the communication. I was much more interested in the emotional side.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

So nearing the end of the program and like, crap, what do I do after this? Talking with different people, different instructors, and they kind of helped me figure out that what I was actually drawn to was something like counseling. And here I am. That's awesome. So I kind of got into it.

MI As Stance In Polarized Times

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Yeah, I I appreciate you sharing that. I similar origin story with communication and really appreciating communication and recognizing how much it's meaningful and important in our lives. Yeah. You're joining us today to talk about motivational interviewing, and it is like part of a style of communication, really, and often described as respectful, honors autonomy within that approach. And I think what's important, we've had some past episodes where we've kind of given like the primer and what is MI and all of that. And that's really good and important foundation to have. But today, in our socio-political climate, people are coming to us and they're feeling overwhelmed or angry, sometimes even powerless. What do you feel like makes MI particularly well suited for this moment?

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Sure. That's so I guess I did I didn't really touch on this sharing about how I got to where I am, but I think another important part to share in that story is that as director of clinical services at a practice that is identity affirming, this is a very important time to be talking about this. So, which is, you know, another reason why I'm really grateful to be here and to talk about like how we can implement or utilize motivational interviewing in the work that we're doing with our clients, um, especially within the queer community that we primarily serve. So I think a good place to start with this with this one too is it could be really easy to get wrapped up in a conversation about all the things that are happening all the time in 2026. And that's regardless of like if we're sharing a position or if we have an opposing one. But because MI, like you said, Marissa, like it centers autonomy and lived experiences, but while also like emphasizing partnership, this is like a perfect approach to take in today's socio-political climate. Mainly because it is it it takes the personal heat off of us. Like with motivational interviewing, it's about the client, it's about their values, their concerns, their goals. And it it really like focuses the spotlight on them. And when we take that motivational interviewing stance, you know, they're viewed as the experts. So we're not deciding what the issue is, we're not deciding which way they need to go in these different pathways that are in front of them. Um, but I do think that it's important to note too, because I believe this to be very true, whether we like it or not, that counseling is political.

SPEAKER_04 7:19

Yes. And for me, we're not in saying it.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Yeah, like even if I I don't particularly care too much for that, I guess, all the time, but like we it's there. It's there anyway. And so, like, through using motivational interviewing, it's not to say that we're avoiding any political conversations, like we're not avoiding anything, but it's more or less like how we can keep the focus on the client and ourselves out of the conversation. So yeah, hopefully I'm answering that question. Like the focus is on them.

Staying Grounded Without Fixing

SPEAKER_03 8:00

Yeah, and and we're gonna keep talking about it. So, yeah, there's a I know there's a lot more to say, but yes, this is sort of helping us have an approach where we can honor and respect someone and keep the conversation directed toward them. Yeah. I I know like in my own work, but also in you know, conversations with other colleagues, like where we as counselors are increasingly holding more space for this distress and specifically related to current events, different policy changes and conflict occurring, you know, nationally, internationally, even like within communities. How do you think MI helps clinicians stay grounded and effective, like without slipping into like persuasion or avoidance and even burnout?

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So with motivational interviewing, and because the focus is on the client, like that distress, that powerlessness, the frustration, the anger, like all of that can exist in the room with us without it feeling heated or something that we need to solve, or something that we need to problem solve for the client or fix, you know. So the idea is to kind of shift from like, how do I fix something for the client, or like how do I help them figure out what to do? That's that's not our job. Like, that's not our role. So it's like not our job to rescue, it's not our job to problem solve or even give those ideas or resources until the client gives us permission to do that. Yeah. So when we shift from like, I have to fix something to like I just need to understand something, it takes that pressure off of us for sure.

Ambivalence As A Catalyst

SPEAKER_03 10:04

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I'm really excited about this next question because I think there are often like emotions or saddness that get a bad rap. Like, I'm I often like I'm hearing like things I say to clients where I'm like, anger gets a bad rap, but anger's not always bad. And I think the same is true with ambivalence. And ambivalence can be meaningful and motivational interviewing takes that stance and that it's like a natural part of the change process. How do you feel like that lens of it being natural is useful or helpful when clients feel torn between like values or safety relationships and survival, especially in the current climate?

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Sure. So I mean, you you kind of said it yourself already, Marissa, that motivational interviewing, it just anticipates ambivalence being a part of the conversation, you know. So we're not trying to avoid it, we're not trying to stigmatize it. In fact, I think that it's music to my ears when I'm hearing ambivalence, that I'm hearing two sides of the same coin, so to speak, because to me, that means that we're more like there's more movement or there's more like direction than when I don't hear any ambivalence at all. Yeah. So, you know, we kind of approach it, like I approach that at least, is like, oh, this is exciting. Like we can have movement and growth, and you know, that they're ready to talk about some of these things. So, you know, with motivational interviewing, we don't frame ambivalence as something being like bad. You know, it's it's okay to be unsure and it's okay to be undecided on something. Um but when we're getting like I guess like kind of putting more of like this socio-political climate into the into the conversation, that you know, cliches are cliches for a reason, but you know, being stuck between a rock and a hard place, because oftentimes it feels that way. Yeah. So when a client is, you know, kind of sharing that they feel stuck between authenticity and safety, because sometimes it feels like you can't have both at the same time. But with motivational interviewing, we're not asking them to choose. Yeah. We're not telling them that they have to. And so, you know, being able to like examine both sides, like I think that that could be really alleviating for a lot of people that like it's okay that this is feeling charged in different directions for you. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

I remember learning about ambivalence really early. I I'm maybe like, I mean, I'm sure I learned about it in my master's program. I don't want to like discount anything I learned like in the classroom, but that as part of our internship experience, we were required to get crisis experience and doing some crisis hotline or crisis work that learning about ambivalence in that context was that it was actually maybe in in some scenarios like a protective factor. And so I know, like, you know, there's always like exceptions to the role, but that it made me sort of shift to where I understood ambivalence a lot differently and respected that, like, okay, this is maybe not a bad thing, and that it's also a very human thing to have multiple kind of emotions or layers in regards to our own, you know, circumstances, life and emotions. Exactly. Exactly. You know, when we think about counselors and some of those worries that they may have doing harm is probably one of those considerations that comes up a lot when bringing in some of the socio-political climate, these topics that are coming up into session. What would you say are some principles or skills, you know, related to motivational interviewing that would be helpful for counselors to navigate conversations, you know, confidently, but also ethically?

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Mm-hmm.

Ethics, Autonomy, And Partnership

SPEAKER_00 14:22

It is just so serendipitous that some of these questions are coming up. And I know that you know, we had talked before we started recording that that this episode is going to be coming out after the conference that I'm going to be attending tomorrow. But my topic is about, you know, how do we utilize motivational interviewing in political conversations, especially with queer clients? And I think that this question is basically the premise of my presentation. So it's very timely. I think a good place, well, okay, so to try to narrow it down, because I think everything about motivational interviewing is great, but maybe starting with complex reflections. So it would be something, you know, reflecting beyond just the content. So like noticing or acknowledging the struggle and the difficult emotions that come up with that. So like really demonstrating that reflective listening, yeah, and helping clients feel heard and understood. And if I had to pick another, I guess I'm kind of doing 2A and 2B. I'm gonna put I'm gonna put two together. So motivational interviewing and like promoting autonomy, you know, it centers autonomy and putting clients first. Like it's the client's agenda, not ours. And I think a lot of people are feeling powerless or that they're they're feeling stuck and you know, kind of lacking a lot of control. But in the counseling room, they're in charge. You know, they're in charge of you know, decision making and problem solving on their own. And that could do a world of good when they don't really have a lot of power elsewhere, or it feels like they don't, anyway. Yeah. So, like the the second part to this, like to be, it would be pairing promoting autonomy with partnership or being able to collaborate and walk alongside the client. Because uh along with feeling powerless, they could probably feel alone. So if we're putting everything on them, that becomes pretty burdensome of like, well, I'm coming to you because I'm not really sure what to do. So it's finding this balance between promoting their autonomy while also partnering with them.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

So that might sound something like it probably does feel like you have three or four different options in front of you, and it is ultimately for you to decide. However, you're not alone in figuring out what's best for you.

SPEAKER_03 17:17

Yeah, yeah, wow. And we know how powerful the relationship is, and so feeling less alone in it is is critical.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:27

You know, we're talking about ethics and you know, even with that response, like I hear like counselor professional identity coming out in its alignment with motivational interviewing and that I think that there are other routes, you know, that are aligned as well with our ethics and our identity, uh, you know, social justice, respect, collaboration. And as you mentioned before, too, like honoring our clients' lived experiences and especially during social upheaval. I'm wondering how you see motivational interviewing aligning with our ethical responsibilities and maybe even some of that professional identity dynamic, too. Sure.

MI Beyond The Therapy Room

SPEAKER_00 18:16

So I think in a lot of ways, motivational interviewing is an ethical stance. So I guess a way that I think about this is like regardless if we're counselors, social workers, MFTs, or you know, other behavioral health professionals. So if we're looking at all of the ethical codes, ACA, AAMFT, NASW, they have like shared themes or standards that you know that we that we follow and we approach. And so, like a lot of what you find within those themes can directly relate back to something rooted in motivational interviewing or that motivational interviewing, like it it goes back and forth. Like, I guess to give an example among the different uh professional codes of ethics, like scope of practice, right? And being able to seek out consultation and supervision when needed. And like when we approach these conversations with a motivational interviewing framework, it is it's something as simple as like, this is an area that I'm not super familiar with. Would it be okay if I consulted with a trusted colleague to make sure that I am supporting you the best way that I can? And it is like a combination of like promoting autonomy, because they could tell me no, that they don't want to, you know, have me consult with somebody, but it can also be really powerful because it's like signaling to them that I want to make sure that I'm doing what's best you know for them and in a way that I can approach things. So like MI is a way, like a conduit, I guess, for like how you can talk about or conceptualize our ethics. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Oh yeah. I am like MI is an ethical stance. I I appreciate that, I guess, like framework and and it being a conduit, it makes sense. So I hope that resonates with everyone else listening as much as it resonated with me, because I think that that's powerful to like acknowledge like it's not only an approach or like skills in helping people, but it is it is an ethical stance. It's saying like this is this is how we do that, but like it's taking that stance. I know I feel like any of my counseling friends that I see in the last, I don't know, year, maybe, especially the last month or so, have been feeling maybe particularly bummed, is putting it mildly, but demoralized, exhausted, disillusioned, unhappy about like things that are happening. And and I really try to acknowledge with them, with clients alike, that you know, I'm a human first, counselor second. And I think it's important that we support each other. And that's one of the reasons this podcast even exists, is that we can, you know, be a part of a conversation and build community with one another and help people feel less alone. How do you think MI would be useful, not just for clients, but like internally, collegially, that we can support each other through this and help counselors have you know more clarity and resilience?

Integrating MI With Other Modalities

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Sure. I mean, that I mean all of your questions are really important, but this one too, especially because it is a very challenging time. Um you know, uh like we mentioned at the beginning of our time together that counseling is political, whether we like it or not. And so it's going to show up in different ways, even if we're not consciously thinking about that. And it's heavy. Like the work that we do is not easy by any means. Nope. It could feel isolating at times, especially when our clients are coming in and they're sharing these things. With us and then you know, we're seeing it you know play out in their lives, but we're also seeing it play out in our loved ones' lives, and we're also seeing it play out in our own lives, and it's just it it feels like it's hard to escape at times. So you know, motivational interviewing like so it it it is connected to behavioral health, you know, being rooted or I don't want to say rooted, but maybe being not maybe being, it was originated in substance use or or problem, like drinking behaviors. And but it doesn't mean that it has to stop with behavioral mental health or with substance use conversations. Like I tend to integrate motivational interviewing in conversations with supervisees, con conversations as a member of the leadership team at my practice. Like it it is it is a an approach to conversation, and we can use it intentionally in different spaces and also with ourselves. It's it's a reflective practice. So you know, like I think a really important question that I try to ask myself, like when I'm feeling overwhelmed or stressed, so pretty much every day, I I ask like, well, what feels like the most important to me right now? What feels risky? And like what would sustainable action look like for me right now? And I try to make it as like present or like in the moment as I possibly can because there are some days that I feel like I can like take on the world and like you know, run run for office myself or you know, which I don't have the bandwidth to do. But I think that you know, I have a lot of like oomph behind me. And then there are other days where I have nothing, you know. So I try to like keep it mostly present tense or like on a day-to-day basis, and it it helps normalize this distress that I think a lot of us are feeling. And it's not something that we need to fix overnight, or it's not something that we can fix overnight, even if we wanted to, or we could. So it it helps slow me down as well. Because it feels like we need to rush a lot.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

Yeah, yeah. I could go into so many things with that statement, but I don't want to derail like the original topic. But yeah, I think that like, you know, yes, this is MI focus, but like that speaks to the system influence, right? Like, and that we can acknowledge that and know that like we may not be able to change the system in a day, but what is you know something that feels actionable, like you're saying, in this moment with the present like focus? So maybe you already answered this with that last response, but like any counselor listening right now said, you know what, I want to try and apply more MI in my life, be more intentional, especially in regards to like present-day stressors. What's one mindset shift or practice you would most want them to take into their lives or their sessions with clients?

Live MI Lightning Round Scenarios

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Mm-hmm. A little can go a long way, I think, is is what I would is is how I, you know, I'm gonna answer that question. That like, you know, not in the sense of like using motivational interviewing sparingly, but like you can see a lot of difference by just integrating a little bit. And, you know, mentioning that like clients feel it, you know, we feel it, clients feel it. And when we kind of sit back and we slow down, we're not asking the distress to go away, we're not asking the anger or the frustration to go away. So in a world where like we might be feeling powerless or our clients are feeling powerless or misunderstood, that deep listening in those complex reflections that I was talking about, like those things can go a long way for people.

SPEAKER_04 27:23

I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 27:25

I like I'm just thinking about how I use it sometimes on my own, and and I am like, yeah, that is true. Like, and sometimes it it's reflecting those things back. I one of my favorite am I like maybe lines of questioning, right? Like in eliciting like some of that change talk is about like you know, fast forward if if nothing changes in the next, but it's still reflecting and acknowledging like where they are presently. But like how do we play that tape forward? What does that look like? And it's you know, my favorite word, like more care frontational, but it's still like that, yeah. You know, like it's confronting like that discrepancy, but in a way that, and I guess like you could be more direct with it, but I guess in how I approach it, it is including some of that deep reflection piece and acknowledging present day stuff, but where it's not working.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Sure. I mean, like on the day-to-day, because things are happening so quickly, and you know, it's like go, go, go, that like when we take the time as counselors to slow down and to listen and like you know, have that mindset that like my job isn't to fix, it's to understand that like it might be one of the few times in their day-to-day where somebody is like focusing on them and understanding or trying to, you know, trying to understand like yeah, what things are like for them. And so I think things can like change can happen, growth can happen when people do feel understood and seen. And MI gives us a way to do that.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

Yeah, and honor them, like that, you know, I I'm like a plain language girly, and mostly just because I think, yeah, I can use the clinical language. I've done, you know, like that kind of training, but but sometimes it feels disconnecting, like with clients who are like, oh, she's getting preachy on me or something, right? Like we we move into like a now there is like less collaboration and she's gotta be the expert or something. And so I think sometimes MI allows us to do that where we can just say, like, you're not a freak, like you're human, like this is this happens, like, and here's why it might be happening, like from what I'm hearing you say. But like, let's partner, you know, like let's help you come up with what works for you, what maybe feels like moving in the direction of you know positive change. Exactly. You mentioned earlier, like where MI's origin story is, you know, connected to substance use. And I think in my early, early, early days, you know, practicum, maybe even prior to that, I was like, oh, I don't know if I can work with people with substance use issues. Like, I just don't know. Not because I wanted like to stigmatize them, but because of like my own like family experiences and like discomfort maybe in in that regard. And so it was a me thing. But also I think a naive young Marissa thing where I thought, like, it's you know, you're either in like the AOD side of things or the mental health side of things. And that's kind of how yeah, a lot of like places might structure things, but what we know in the real world is like that is not how that works, like in dual diagnosis and like there's no cookie cuttering. And so I found a lot of value and actually did end up interning, like and working really closely with with substance use and realizing change is at the root of it, and that many people I I won't say all because right, speaking in absolutes, maybe is not perfect, but that many people who enter into counseling have something in their life they would like to see change. And it will require change on their part. And James hard, so hard, so hard.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

And um, even if they know what the change is, you know, or like the things that like it might not be what is expected. Like I'm thinking about a client coming in and you know, like what's bringing you into counseling, and they're like, Well, my wife told me that I need to be here. So maybe the change is to have the wife stop pushing into counseling or something, you know. So, like change looks like a lot of different things for a lot of different people, and so it's just being like open or like fine-tuning your ears to it.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:35

Knowing like maybe changes at the root and like the origins, you know, are connected to substance use. I wonder if, like, in your experience or or within your training, if you found that there are any clinical situations, presenting concerns where MI is maybe not the best approach, or where it needs to be really thoughtfully, intentionally integrated with a different modality.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Mm-hmm. So when I do when I provide motivational interviewing trainings, I oftentimes do that with a really dear friend of mine. And so over many trainings and kind of poking fun at ourselves, we realized that we kept saying to the attendees, like, the one thing we like about MI is, or the one thing that I like about MI is that. And, but it's we say that about everything. So it's not just one thing that we like about MI. So I'm catching myself think about that throughout our podcast. I'm like, did I say that already? Did I already say the one thing I like? But you know, kind of joking aside, one of the things that I appreciate most about motivational interviewing is that it wasn't created to replace anything. Like it wasn't created to replace, you know, CBT, DBT, any of the other approaches that are out there. You know, it's it's it's actually meant to be supplemental. It's easily integrated into things that you're already doing. It could be used before we get into a more structured approach. You know, I guess I'm kind of thinking about it too as like there might be times where you would want to tweak the intentionality behind the motivational interviewing framework that you're using. So I guess what I mean by this is like sharing with permission, you know, like if we're assessing for safety risks, I'm not going to ask them if it's okay if we can talk about that. Like if I need to provide informed consent about you know confidentiality and mandated reporting, like I'm not, I'm not going to ask them, like, is it okay if I share this information with you? Because they could tell me no. Right. But I'm required to.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

You know, so I want to be mindful with when I ask them permission to share some things. So like I want to, I definitely want to lean into it when like I see the opening for it. And then I want to really like scale it back when I know that I can't really, I I have to, I have to share these things. So I guess in that way, Marissa, it's like, yes, there might be some times that you know, MI, you don't have like it's okay to not use MI, but if you do choose to use MI, just being extra intentional with how you use it. And you know, I'm thinking about I I tend to use EMDR with some of my clients and how I implement that into conversation, how I implement motivational interviewing into conversations with EMDR, which you know, if you know a lot about the like EMDR and motivational interviewing, like how do you put those two things together? But you can, you know, and how you talk about different things. So, one, it was never meant to stand alone, I guess bringing in for a landing.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

It's never meant to stand alone. It's supplemental for sure, and it's okay if you're choosing not to use motivational interviewing for something. And if you do still choose to use it, just being extra intentional with it.

Boundaries, Self‑Disclosure, And Intent

SPEAKER_03 36:35

Yeah, yeah. It's it makes sense. The dots connect for me. I think it is important that when we, you know, learn different techniques and skills and approaches that some of them I think beyond being aligned to like our ethics and our professional identity, are sometimes aligned more with like our personal approaches and comfort and what feels, you know, how can I show up authentically as Marissa in my sessions with clients while still also being intentional that these are things that are useful and supporting the change process with my client. And that might look different depending on the client, but like that, you know, sometimes we have to really know the skills so that we can be intentional with them. You know, I for years taught counseling techniques course, like where you do your first, you know, like big mock sessions, but you're practicing these skills in smaller ways throughout the semester. And while the grading is intensive for those courses, it was always my favorite because I was able to help students become more intentional, like, you know, what made you ask that question, right? Like, let's be reflective in that. And, you know, there are certain things where it's like, yeah, you can be authentically you, and we want to be careful. But it's almost, I think, in a past conversation, and I'm forgetting who said it, but we talked about like self-disclosure and how when you're in that class, you're learning like use sparingly, not because we can't use it, right? I actually find myself using it pretty frequently, but that we have to know why we're using it and how we turn it back toward the client. Like, what what is the purpose of me disclosing this? Not because I am using this as a gab session with my client and like turning it into my own therapy, but because hey, I'm human and maybe you knowing like that kind of thing has happened to me. And like I wonder, like for me, this was something that was useful. And I wonder like what you think would be useful in in that situation, in your situation with it, but like that it gives people permission, like, oh, to to be human. But we have to learn like how to use that before you can just like go full steam ahead, right? Or otherwise it'd be like, oh, I just turned that conversation into something about me. And that's not how that's supposed to go. And it's this is the same idea, like being really intentional with how we go about it, because you gotta know the rules before you can maybe bend them.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And you know, I I it would be safe to assume that you know, many conversations about motivational interviewing would include something along the lines of like the skills that are found within motivational interviewing, so open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, summaries like those skills aren't unique to motivational interviewing. Right. But the way that we use them is unique to motivational interviewing. That's intentional. So yeah, that intentional use of those skills.

SPEAKER_03 39:59

Yeah. So we're gonna do something new today in our conversation. We've played some games on some of our other, you know, short form episodes, but we thought that it would be really helpful to maybe play a game where we're putting these concepts into practice that we're showing the application. So we're gonna do a lightning round focused on like real scenarios counselors in Ohio and beyond might be encountering right now. And hear from you like, how am I can show up in the moment? Not necessarily perfectly, but just like we're talking about really intentionally. So round one. Ready for it. Client says, I feel like the state keeps making decisions about my body and my family, and I'm just so angry all the time. Kim, what's one am I consistent response that acknowledges impact without escalating polarization?

Counselors, Policy, And Ripple Effects

SPEAKER_00 41:01

I would say something along the lines of it feels like a lot of what's going on right now is out of your control and it's impacting you and your loved ones. So that anger feels pretty normal. It makes sense as to why it's there for you.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

Yeah, it's justified.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

Yes. Yeah. Okay, round two. A client shares, my beliefs don't match what my family or church expects. And I'm scared of losing relationships if I speak up.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Man, unfortunately, I hear this one a lot.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

What am I move like helps surface values while respecting autonomy and readiness here?

SPEAKER_00 41:47

I can appreciate the heaviness that you are feeling, that tension that you're feeling between being authentic while also still wanting to maintain those relationships that are really important to you.

unknown 42:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

I appreciate like how your responses are like acknowledging, but not solving. I and I know like there might be some clients who want to fix, and maybe we'll we'll talk about that after this. But I you know, that it that is helpful. We're making sure we're acknowledging. So this one is a little bit more counselor focused, and so we might be able to use the approach in responding to a colleague who would say, I want to advocate publicly, but I'm worried it could affect my practice or my client's trust.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

So I have I have kind of I have two answers for this one, maybe. One could potentially be a little bit spicier and so could be edited out.

SPEAKER_03 42:49

We I'm always encouraging people go for it because you know there might be multiple right answers, right? And I think that that's part of like even recognizing and respecting ambivalence that there might be many right answers, so spicy or not.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

Okay. So I would say my my most immediate response would be like by going out and advocating for clients and you know things that you believe in, like you're worried that it is going to negatively impact your clients' trust. And maybe I need to put more emphasis on this part of like, and you're worried that it's going to negatively impact your clients' trust. You put that back onto them because what if it also impacts it positively that those clients are seeing you out there advocating or hearing about it, or you know, that other practices or other counselors are hearing that you're standing up for something that doesn't mean that it's going to be negative and it can actually be pretty positive.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

Appreciate it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

I think that that part of MI is helpful too, like playing the other side. Like, you know, maybe playing is not the right word, but you know, like allowing space for both. Maybe both is even the wrong word. The variety of like options.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

Because

SPEAKER_00 44:41

I mean, j just the reality of being a human and you know everything of today, like, okay, it it might positively impact clients' trust in some ways, and then maybe some other clients won't feel that way, you know. So I can I can appreciate all the different ways that that can go. And I think, yeah, you know, so I think if I were to offer like a more neutral rather than a like pointing out, you know, something like what I had offered before, you know, it's really important to you to protect your practice and your clientele, your caseload, and standing up for what you believe in. Like it's important for you to figure out how to do both of those things.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

Yeah. Yeah. Round four, more around maybe just like some of the fatigue of politics, the news cycle. A client comes to you to say, I'm exhausted. Every headline feels like a threat, and I can't stop doom scrolling. Is this client me? Is it this is me, this is me, my caseload, my colleagues, you know, the majority of Americans who use their smartphones. So surprise, I'm the client. Um what helps maybe shift this person, maybe me, to to more agency?

SPEAKER_00 46:18

I could understand how it feels like not much matters to what you're doing. And at the same time, I hear that you really want to make a difference. So I think well, okay, so my idea behind sharing something like that would be to like if you didn't like if it really doesn't matter, then you wouldn't be thinking about it, but you're thinking about it, so it does matter to you. Yeah.

Sustainable Action And Hope

SPEAKER_03 46:51

Like the kind of concurrent of of what's being said is that like you're spending time with this, no judgment on what or how much, but like you're spending time with this because there is something that is like meaningful or mattering within what you're consuming. Yeah. Yeah. Back to a counselor focus from five. You know, many of us may be experiencing some moral distress. And so a colleague admits to you I feel complicit when I stay quiet, but overwhelmed when I speak out. How do we normalize that tension rather than just try to resolve it?

SPEAKER_00 47:46

I think I would like I I I hear you. This one is a tough one. So let me think about this for a second. Yeah. You are feeling like you're being pushed and pulled in different directions, and that you really want to make a difference while also protecting your bandwidth. And it's really difficult to figure out what that fine line is between the two.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Yeah. Hopefully that was a an okay.

Closing Reflections And Resources

SPEAKER_03 48:48

It is heavy and it and it's tough. And it's not abnormal to feel both this and this. And so and even beyond like current socio-political climate, I think that that that response that is normal human behavior, right? Like that absolutely we get, you know, I'm sure our mutual colleague and friend Kaylee would would appreciate me saying this, but like with grief. And there's, you know, oftentimes it's very confusing for people, especially those who maybe have not like experienced grief, that like if a loved one who has been sick or struggled with something, that there can be relief. And it feels weird to be like it's not celebrating that someone has has died, but that there's comfort in it. And that's weird for people to like be like, well, why do I feel like better? You know, like or even though there is part of them that is also sad. And so it's like it's it's very human to hold complex emotions. And so I think like your response is speaking to that, and that, you know, yes, right now it is especially normal to be having complex emotions, but it, but even when the state of the world has seemed like less chaotic, let's say, uh, it is normal to hold hold space for multiple things. This next goes back to a little bit more client focus, and I and I think does happen, and I I find it happening, you know, frequently, more recently, but client is pretty direct and says, like, so what do you think about what's happening in Ohio or the US right now?

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Ooh, this is a good one too. So I don't want to, I don't know. I'm not trying to evade this question by any means or this prompt by any means, but I do think that it depends on who the client is and how I would choose to respond to this.

SPEAKER_03 51:06

I think, oh, sorry, go ahead. Well, yeah, like I and and with the MA M A M I focus, uh, you know, maybe with this client, there's a desire to stay, you know, relational, but use the MI stance and maintain some boundaries. Like if we're putting that lens on it, like would that give you maybe more context in how you might respond?

SPEAKER_00 51:36

Yeah, giving me a little bit more constraint by limiting all the possibilities. That's good. You know, I think I would say something along the lines of before I share my own views, I want to make sure that I understand yours. And maybe following up with would you mind sharing? You know, what feels most important for you to share with me in that realm. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:08

Yeah, there's so many answers. And I think you're right. Like we joke a lot when we interview, when we've done some of our, you know, let's unpack that shorter form episodes. That like it depends is such a common answer, but it's but we may tease and laugh about it, but I think to that point that there are times where that's the it depends is like acknowledging, respecting, and honoring that like not every client situation is going to warrant the same type of response, not because we're trying to be inauthentic or evade, but because we do care and want to be intentional about the relationship. And that might mean we also want to understand where that question's coming from. I'm pretty open with clients if they ask me questions like, you know, so and to be transparent, like even clients who maybe don't see things similar, like to the way I might see that similarly to the way I see them, I don't keep it a secret. But if that's not something that's coming up in the context of our conversations, I might still talk about the systemic impact on like they're presenting concern, but I'm not dubbing like, you know, a label on like political party or specific legislation, if it's it's something that they're not bringing to me.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Right.

SPEAKER_03 53:45

But I'm not not recognizing like the, you know, I kind of operate very much from like a feminist relational, cultural, like and within like integrating maybe some solution focused or am I and and what have you, and that within that, I think it's still being culturally responsive, right? Yeah. And I I hope that that doesn't seem like it's a shirking or evading responsibility, but I think it it's we're there to support our client and meet them where they are, and that that part matters too. And so, you know, for some clients, they might hear a lot and and that's meaningful. And for some, they don't need that from me.

SPEAKER_00 54:28

And I agree. And I I think that, you know, with that, it depends sort of intention, you know, like I it might be a hot take, but I don't think that it's bad to share within reason. Right. You know, like I'm not gonna talk about like the past, you know, however many years of like who I voted for. But, you know, like if they, you know, ask me some of my beliefs about some of these things and it's really important to them, and like the moment calls for it, I might share that. And I've also, you know, have drawn the line in the sand too, and saying that's not something that I feel comfortable talking about right now. It's not to say that I won't feel comfortable about that in the future, but right now I think you know it's best that we keep that focus on you. So really, you know, like I don't, I I think I guess promoting our own autonomy.

SPEAKER_03 55:28

And like again, again, bringing it back to that it depends is like it's an easy answer, but it's it's maybe like more nuanced than sometimes we actually acknowledge that the it depends is is partially us acknowledging that we don't have to be neutral, we're not like blank slate necessarily, but that also like we're there to serve the client and consider how you know that information would serve or not serve the client and the relationship that we have with them. And so I don't think it's about like keeping things secret or or anything like that, but that like what matters in this conversation and what is purposeful, the it depends, does encompass that, right? Yeah, yeah. So last round for the game, a client comes to you and really says, like, I just don't know if anything I do even matters anymore. How does MI invite us to like listen for or evoke, or not how, but what does MI ask us to listen for or evoke in moments like this?

SPEAKER_00 56:49

Like nothing really matters. I think this response would be best, I guess like my response would be best as a complex reflection of you know, it feels like you're spinning your wheels and you're not getting anywhere. And I guess my intention behind offering a reflection here would be to draw more information out about what they mean by that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:21

Eliciting like further discussion.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

Exactly. You know, it might even be like maybe taking it a little bit further of you're not really sure what else you can do to make a difference. Yeah. To to really, you know, I guess make this a little bit clearer and and what they mean by that.

SPEAKER_03 57:42

Yeah, bring it into like more focus for what it what does that mean when you say that, like what's not mattering. Okay, well, I appreciate you playing the game with us. Yeah, I think it is helpful to to put these things into practice and and understand it. And especially those who may be less familiar with what MI emotion kind of looks like. So I appreciate you you going there with us. Hopefully I did okay. Hopefully I did make the point. Okay, okay, sweetie. People know if they know. So every conversation that we have on this podcast, we ask this next question. It is, you know, related to the name of our podcast, Ohio Counseling Conversations. And we, you know, want our guests to maybe consider and respond to like what questions or conversations I should say, like you think counseling professionals should be having with each other andor their clients here in Ohio.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

Okay, so I'm gonna please reel me in if I'm going, if I'm yapping too much about this, because I was reeling question and and you have favorite responses. So get after it. This is a good, this is this is a really good one. You don't have to be a politician to be knowledgeable of what's going on and what is impacting you, and what is impacting clients and what is impacting the profession. I think that there it's intimidating. It can't be intimidating to understand all of the different policies and different regulations that are being rolled out. And I don't know if you've ever pulled up like the actual like dockets of what these bills in it. Like, I'm like, I have no idea what this is saying.

SPEAKER_02 59:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:41

I need to, it's like I feel like I'm decoding something, right? Like, yeah, and I it's it's kind of by design, I think, a bit uh to make things extra complicated, but you don't have to understand everything to stay informed or to ask questions or to be a part of conversations. Because even if I guess to give a very specific example, with all this stuff about House Bill 68 and working with trans minors in Ohio, some clinicians like I don't have anybody specific in mind, but you know, some clinicians might say, okay, I don't work with trans minors, you know, this doesn't impact me. Like it's okay. Like, I don't have to be as informed by this. But at the same time, it is impacting them. Like this, the bill, it's saying what you can or can't do with your license that you paid money for and you spent a lot of time and energy and dedication toward getting. And so, like, it's it's rolling back like confidentiality and you know, protecting clients. And so, like, while you might not work with trans minors, they're still kind of telling you what you can and can't do.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:06

Yeah, it's setting a precedence of also like then we have power to say what falls into that, like can or can't, even though like the board, you know, like has its own set, like we already have existing parameters of what we can and cannot do. And it's removing more from those those roles and responsibilities that we already have deemed.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:33

Yes, like this is delightful. Like, what do you what do you mean? You know, so it's like I I think yeah, it has a ripple effect.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:43

And like, yeah, you're gonna get me on this too. I I think what is important for folks to understand too, like I work with adults, right? So, like when when it's about, you know, adolescents, children, schools, even, right? Like it would be easy for me to be one of those clinicians that says, well, it's not the population I work with, so no big deal, no skin off my back. Except that, like, you even if we're not talking about like the legislative piece of that, which I think is important and and critical and very meaningful, is like the ripple effect also still shows up in my counseling sessions because it doesn't mean I don't have parents with children who are concerned about that. It doesn't mean or relatives, you know, siblings who happen to be over 18, or that I don't see them later down the road where this legislation has affected and changed the trajectory of their well-being.

unknown 1:02:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:50

And so, you know, it's so oppositional to like our foundations of of who we are and how we promote wellness, right? That that we have to see it that way too. Like it may not be the population you serve, but the population you do serve is still impacted by it as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:11

Yes. And and that is like, I think, to highlight the most, like from this conversation, from this part specifically, of like, does it okay? Maybe that's a little spicy, but like, does it really matter that it doesn't impact you when you know that it's impacting other people?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:30

Like, you know, like does it matter? Our ethical codes would say, yep, it sure does. And we're supposed to be advocating for systems that promote wellness, you know, like long story short.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

Yeah, like it's it's all interconnected, right? Like just because it's not directly like impacting our day-to-day, or we're not seeing it, like we still are. We're just not consciously, like, we're just not consciously seeing it. It's still showing up in our offices, it's still showing up in everything that we do. And I think again, to bring it in for a landing of like it's it's a good place to start thinking about how it impacts you directly, but that's not the place to stop with it. Yeah. Like, think about how it is impacting your profession, your clients, your clients, loved ones, your loved ones. Like, think about colleagues.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:29

Yeah, exactly. If they're like, I keep thinking about the ripple effect, and so I'm not trying to make it doom and gloom, but I think it's to your point of you know, it may not, this might be where you start with it, but let's not have it be where it stops. Like, we're already experiencing a shortage. There are already other pieces of legislation that want to make or present barriers to accessing training to become a counselor. And with that, like we want our colleagues to stay. And there's so many reasons to leave sometimes when like it feels like a system is against, and that doesn't serve us, it doesn't serve our clients, it doesn't serve the communities, like at large, it just isn't serving. Um and so it plays into like it maybe it it doesn't affect you dot dot dot yet. Yeah. And again, I don't want it to seem like dim and glim because I think that this is also an opportunity for hope, because by keeping yourself informed, you then have an idea and are able to contribute in ways where you can serve, even if that's outside of like your regular day-to-day with clients, that like you can write a letter, you can show up at you know, city council, you can do different things where you're in your community and still promoting the profession and the well-being of like your community at large.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

Absolutely. And and to connect it back to am I specifically, like am I it like our our question way earlier about you know, like motivational interviewing can help protect against burnout and overwhelm because you're taking the charge out of it for you so that like you can have more space to work with the frustration or the anger or you know, the misunderstanding, like when we're using those things and we're not deep in the mud ourselves, like we can do more. We could we could do more.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:47

Yeah, and I and I appreciate because I I know you had shared earlier, like your kind of personal reflection of when things feel heavy and it gets hard. And that some of that reflection is sort of like, what is the even if it's a small like actionable thing that I can do in the present moment. And I think that that's important for us as humans, but as counselors too. Like if we are feeling like oh this feels futile and like we can't, you know, we're not seeing the change that we want, but like what small thing can we do that might, you know, like not feel like a lot, but is it something and does it help you? Right? Like this isn't like me trying to give suggestions or even give myself a gold star. A few weeks ago I was just like man this is not good. Like right not very happy about the state of things and and I bake. I like to bake life gets busy. I was like I'm making my neighbor brownies because in community like with people like we feel sometimes better. It's like it is not me going out and changing the world but it's changing something in my like day to day like I really love my neighbors and like you know there are occasionally times she'll text me she's like my kid's bringing food over like I made this and she's bringing it over and so it's like okay well I'm not a cook I'm a baker. And so like I can't bring you dinner but I can bring you dessert. And so doing you know that small actionable thing it didn't change like my whole perspective on the state of the world but it helped me feel a little bit better in the same way like some of these actions that we can take it maybe it's not as delicious as brownies but but writing that letter or signing that petition or even just getting more informed helps you feel like you're contributing and that you did that small actionable step that maybe felt a little bit grounding.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:53

Absolutely and now I'm like okay well where do you live so then I could become your neighbor so I can get those brownies too but yeah no that's a really good point that it like any sustainable like action or change like it doesn't have to be directly related to the thing that feels overwhelming to you. Like it could be like baking or cooking dinner like those types of things and I really I really my go-to is typically like something that I can complete like a task that there's a beginning middle and end and I feel like I've like accomplished something.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:26

Yeah you know that off and it feels like it feels I closed the loop.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:34

Yeah and it's in my control it's in my control and I finished a thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:39

FYI and now like I don't know how many people are gonna listen to this and so I'm gonna like put the caveat in that like you know limited supply but I am known to bring baked goods to conferences and so if you're going to ACA and Columbus in April perhaps you find me I'm not guaranteeing brownies I have a very tried and true chocolate chip cookie recipe.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:08

So you know perhaps perhaps you know but while supplies last no I'm gonna tuck that away I'm gonna I'm gonna keep it keep it back in my mind.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:18

And soft plug for the conference that like we're OCA is a is excited to you know be the host state this year and so I hope to see a lot of Ohio counselors there and I think it's it's really exciting for us to to host but also to have the opportunity for community right now. Absolutely we need it we need it. Yes yes Kim thank you so much for joining us today this was awesome and we will have to have you back sometime we really appreciate you being part of this meaningful conversation absolutely thank you so much for having me I I feel I I feel very grateful for the opportunity and to share some of the things that I'm dealing with you know in my clinical work but also hopefully share a little bit of something about MI with others. Yes thanks so much and thank you for listening we'll see you soon again we want to thank Kim so much for joining us today and for bringing such clarity compassion and grounded wisdom into this conversation what we really appreciate about today's discussion is how motivational interviewing shows up not as a rigid technique but as a way of being with clients, with colleagues and even with ourselves especially during times of uncertainty and strain. From navigating minority stress and legislative impact to supporting counselor identity, advocacy and sustainability, this conversation reminds us that MI invites partnership over fixing and curiosity over certainty. For our listeners, we hope this episode offered not only insight but permission permission to slow down, to hold complexity, to acknowledge ambivalence, and to trust that meaningful change doesn't always require louder voices, just more intentional ones. As always, we'll include links in the show notes so you can learn more about Kim's work, trainings and supervision offerings