Welcome to Person-Centred Conversations

In this episode, Peter Blundell and Helen Skelton introduce the Person-Centred Practice Community, a space for exploring person-centred counselling and psychotherapy. They share their journeys into practice, reflect on their connections with Carl Rogers' theory, and address common stereotypes about person-centred practitioners. This warm and insightful conversation invites listeners to contribute their own experiences and be part of this evolving dialogue on person-centred practice in a modern context.

Brodley, B. (1999). Reasons for responses expressing the therapist’s frame of reference in client-centered therapy, The Person-Centered Journal 6(1). 

Person-Centred Practice Community

Transcript

 Episode 1 - Person-Centred Conversations

Episode 1 - Person-Centred Conversations

Dr Peter Blundell: [00:00:00] So, hello everybody, whoever is listening. Um, my name is Peter Blundell. Um, I'm here with my friend and colleague, Helen Skelton. Hello, Helen. 

Helen Skelton: Hi. 

Dr Peter Blundell: So we have had many, many, many conversations over the years. We've known each other a long time now, um, about the different conversations that we hear around person centered theory and practice.

So, um, in the teaching that we've done, the conferences we've been to, the person centered communities that we're involved with, we have had so many conversations about, uh, person-centred practice and theory, and it was actually Helen's idea, um, that it might be good to have some kind of community or podcast that brought some of these conversations out, uh, into the public forum a little bit more, because often they're, they're behind closed doors.

So this is the first episode, if you like, of, um, trying to bring that idea to fruition. Um, Helen, I don't know [00:01:00] if you want to, say a little bit more on that. 

Helen Skelton: Yeah, I think, um, we both felt that we were part of together and in wider communities conversations with person centered practitioners who spoke about their work with so much love and so much passion and so much heart and, um, Saw so much effect, so much transformational effect in their clients lives.

Um, you know, their, their, their, their passion wasn't separate from the success of their work, if you like. Um, but that, that has been increasingly receding into the background that that doesn't feel like there's a, a kind of mainstream or public conversation about person centeredness. There are lots of conversations going on about questioning it.

Questioning its effectiveness, questioning its validity, questioning its values, asking [00:02:00] whether it's enough. And that's all, you know, of course, a constant conversation. I think it should be in any theory, you know, are, is what we're doing enough? Is it appropriate? Um, but there's so little public conversation coming from the kind of heart of person centeredness.

And I think we both wanted to bring that, um, bring that out and make that possible for people. 

Dr Peter Blundell: Yeah, and I think there's, um, I was thinking about what you were saying though, and it almost feels maybe like to some of us, maybe not all of us, that the critique of person centered approach sometimes drowns out the passion. for the approach that many, that many people have, um, and that's not to say that these conversations aren't going to critique, uh, person centered theory and practice, but I suppose one of the things we wanted to draw out was some of that passion that people have for the approach and to hear how different people understand it, interpret it, and, um, use it in their, in their counselling practice and beyond [00:03:00] that as well.

Helen Skelton: I think the other thing I've seen particularly in, you know, newer practitioners or students and supervisees is a kind of growing confusion because there are so many questions out there and so many critiques out there now. There's a lot of kind of internal confusion in people about, you know, what, what do I think?

What do I, and there's comparatively little offering that's not in books. There's some, you know, wonderful, wonderful written work. But there's comparatively little conversation out there coming from the other side to really help people find balance and work their own way through it and unconfuse themselves.

So I'm hoping we can redress that balance and allow people to really think about, you know, a much bigger picture and find themselves within that. 

Dr Peter Blundell: Um, I think that's important. And I think, I mean, I'm an academic, so I love all the theoretical stuff. And I know you do too, reading all the different papers and articles that come out, but not everybody is comfortable reading, um, the [00:04:00] theoretical stuff and, and access and some stuff is not, um, accessible to people in terms of affordability of textbooks and some articles of behind paywalls and things like that.

Um, so I think part of this process, what we hope to do is break down theory and a very personable way so that we can have conversations about a book chapter or a piece of theory that that we know about and actually talk about what does that actually look like in practice. 

Helen Skelton: Yes, absolutely. Um, I think much, you know, that's where people like online events are so important because I think much counselling and psychotherapy theory is inaccessible to people.

You know, the books are incredibly expensive. Um, library, libraries aren't necessarily very well stocked. And, uh, we, we're learning more online. So people aren't even close to, To library so we really need to make these concepts these ideas and what for me are transformational observations on [00:05:00] life available to people in a much more accessible way.

Dr Peter Blundell: Yeah, I was thinking about I work in a university so have quite a lot of access to the textbooks and the, and the journal articles, but even then there's limitations in terms of what I can get access to. And I'm thinking about all people who had learned in colleges or small institutions or little community groups that really, you know, maybe I've got Rogers original book or whatever but but maybe don't have a lot beyond that.

So, um, yeah, so I think trying to bring that. out in these conversations would be really good. And also highlight resources that people might not have even heard of, you know, that have been useful for, for our practice. 

Helen Skelton: Yes, definitely. Definitely. I think too, it's things like, you know, working in a university, you'll have access to journal articles, um, through the online libraries.

And of course, the minute people finish training, some training institutions don't have access to those journals anyway. Um, I've recently [00:06:00] finished teaching and suddenly, you know, my, the, the access that I have to things is significantly reduced unless I pay for it. Um, and, and I really feel that compromise for people.

Dr Peter Blundell: Yeah. And I suppose having these conversations is hopefully a resource people can have that's open access that they can listen to whenever, whenever they want. Um, one of the things. 

Helen Skelton: They that I, you know, I hear a lot of people saying that the theory is really dense. You know, I think all, all psychological theories are dense because they're about humans and we're really complicated people and living really complicated processes.

So in a way it can't be anything but dense. And Rogers was writing as a scientist. He was asked to write as a scientist. So he, the earlier things anyway, were written in very particular language at a particular time. Um, but for me, it's important to. to say, you know, as a teacher, I've revisited it many, many, many times.

So it's been easier for me, perhaps I've had [00:07:00] more access to it in that way. But there is such personhood in it. And it speaks of such real things to me. And I think that doesn't necessarily come across when you're doing reading for the first time for an essay, and you've got all that stress and panic and pressure.

on you to get this right. It's like there's no space for you to think, what does this mean to me? What is it? What, what is the living process that is being described here? And that's what I love about it. And that's what I hope out of our conversations, we can, you know, really bring the theory to life that this is an observation and description of living process.

Dr Peter Blundell: Um, I love that. And, um, I really hope we can do it justice in some way. Um, and I, I totally understand. I remember when I getting first introduced to Carl Rogers theory and finding it, the language quite clinical and quite, um, hard to get my head around, and it didn't marry up with how I was seeing it lived.

in, [00:08:00] uh, the, the learning space, you know, and how, and how different that was. And I think, um, yeah, there, there, there, there's maybe definitely a need there to kind of make a connection between those two, two things, the theoretical stuff and then, and then how it's lived, I suppose. Yeah.

So before, so I think how we're going to do this is we're going to talk in a moment about how, uh, our own training and kind of what brought us into the person centered approach in the first place. But just before we do that, I just wanted to talk a little bit about how we see this kind of podcast and community developing over time.

So while it was Helen's initial idea to kind of do this, and then we've decided to record this first initial episode. Um, the idea is that we're inviting. Other person centered practitioners anywhere in the world, you don't necessarily have to be therapists, say, for example, it could be anyone who's interested in the person centered approach to join the community that you can follow us on social media and put the links in the, in the show notes to this, [00:09:00] but also to send in your own recorded conversations so that we can share them on the platform.

So it's not about one person or a group of people, but it's actually about the wealth and breadth of the person centered, uh, theory and practice, um, and the people who practice it. Um, so all we would want is we want to make sure that it meets our values so that it's theoretically correct. So there isn't something really random in there, like, you know, there's 31 propositions or seven conditions.

And if you don't know what I'm talking about, hopefully we'll delve into, delve into that as part of this discussion. Um, and then we also want to make sure that anything that we're putting out on our platform Um, fulfills, um, our anti oppressive values. Um, and so making sure that it is, um, the discussions are kind of appropriate and, um, thinking about the safety and security of particularly of any marginalized groups, um, or communities that you might be discussing or representing or talking about as part of the, as part of [00:10:00] the podcast.

But generally apart from those things, um, we'll review it obviously, and then hopefully be able to get. Um, more discussions out there. So if you want to know about that, um, we will put an email address in the show notes and you can email us to find out a little bit, a little bit more about how you could go about doing that.

Um, so that said, we're gonna talk a little bit about our training, um, and why we got drawn into the person centered approach in the first place. Helen, do you want to go first? 

Helen Skelton: Yeah. Yeah, I want to go back to way before my training, I think, if that's all right, just, just to start, because it feels like a really important journey to my training.

Um, I worked my first kind of proper job, if you like, um, was working as an editor for a publishing company that specialized in therapeutic and social work and those kind of helping professions, uh, professional books. [00:11:00] And so I began to work with a lot of therapists and, um, At that time, it was kind of pre word processor, really.

I mean, that's how old I am, but people would send in typed manuscripts and I would work, uh, to help them make it into a book. Um, academic writing wasn't so kind of. generally accessible to people then either. So I got really immersed in conversations with the writers and their concepts. Um, I'd already come from a background.

I was a massive reader as a child. So, so really kind of internal human processes were the thing that I was interested in from being really little. I would never have said that then, obviously, but, but that was my fascination. And that was the first point at which I thought about training to be a therapist was probably when I was about 25.

And I was just increasingly fascinated by this world that I was looking at. And I was in London at the time and I did a couple of night classes and I knew about the [00:12:00] Tavistock. I worked with people at the Tavistock and it was all really fascinating, but I kind of. kept putting off the training and I kept thinking I can't afford it or now's not the right time and something was kind of not happening to help me begin it.

Um, and then I, I ended up moving out of London. I had children, life took over, you know, I became a kind of busy, busy person. Publisher and, um, and mom and all of those things. And then it was like, no, this is still, this is still shouting to me. This is where the direction I need to be going in. And I did another course, which was, um, both psychodynamic.

It was a kind of free training course and it was psychodynamic and person centered. And that was kind of a gift and it, it lends away the course itself lends away from person centered, but it was kind of teaching it because it felt it had to I had the feeling the truth. The trainer certainly was not person centered lead.

Um, but [00:13:00] there was one summer and I apologize to my kids now because I sat on holiday and I just pretty much read Rogers. On holiday, which I know is not normal and I'm not expecting people to do that, but there was something in it that really gripped me. I think I began with on becoming a person. So the less academic end of it, but something had really gripped me.

And by the end of that summer, I, my life had fallen into place. In a way that it had never had before. And I'd been in and out of therapy. I'd had bits along the way and hadn't really met me. It had hadn't helped me, but I knew there was something in it that should be helping me, but it wasn't. Um, and suddenly reading Roger's ideas helped.

Me make sense of my life and what had happened to me and why I was the way I was and why my own psychological distress. I'd had a lot of anxiety and depression in those years. [00:14:00] Uh, why that way it just kind of made everything settle. I realize now in in contemporary language. I kind of. started to become downregulated for the first time ever.

And that was just because somebody was offering me an understanding of this is what has happened to you and it's okay. And it was like, yes, you're so right. This is what has happened. And I can breathe. And then it was like, And this is a way of being in the world that completely matched my own desires.

So it was like, that is the person I want to be. It's not like he gave me those conditions or that attitude. It was just, Oh, they are the words for it. They are the words for what I'm looking for. And they are the words which feels right for me to be trying to be and I've really seen how I was kind of living so aligned to other people's values and, and generally a [00:15:00] totally incongruent person and that my, my distress had come from extreme incongruence.

Um, so he kind of gave me permission to both understand my life. And what had happened to me and that there was a possibility of being the person I felt I was deeply inside. And, and even now when I'm saying it, you know, that, that is moving. It brings tears to my eyes and it was a transformational summer for me.

Um, and after that, I kind of looked around a couple of courses or a few courses in my local area. And I guess, again, I didn't know this language at the time, but I was really beginning to develop an intern. And it was like, boom. Here's an internal locus of evaluation. And suddenly it was like, course doesn't feel quite right for me.

I would have never done that 10 years earlier. I would have thought that's the course that's like, that's the one I'm meant to do. I'll do it. And I realized that that's why I hadn't trained all those years ago was because [00:16:00] actually nothing was quite aligning to me. And I was waiting for the thing that did.

Um, and then I found the course at Metanoia. Um, I had met a couple of people who had also done that training. Um, and it just felt right. It was long. It was going to be a long training. It was going to be a big training. I had no idea how expensive it was going to be when I went into it. I have to say, um, I hadn't added all of that up, but I, it just felt like the thing I needed to do and that I really wanted to do something that was immersive.

And I think I, I understood for myself that if I was going to be helping people, I, uh, part of my own insecurity is that I need to do things thoroughly if I'm going to do them. And it means I don't start lots of things and I'm learning to start things better now and not worry about it. But at that point, it was like, I really need to.[00:17:00]

To understand this the most, because otherwise I won't be good enough to help people. But actually it was amazing because it meant that I really had time and space, which I know is a phenomenal privilege and luxury, to be immersed in these ideas. Um, so I spent five years there and, and that process continued of, um, Becoming a person, you know, me becoming increasingly, um, the person I felt comfortable in the world and, and also being able to help people in a way that felt aligned with myself.

So I wasn't applying a theory to somebody or I wasn't doing a job. It felt like I can do this because it feels honest. I think. And that was a very powerful experience. And it hasn't stopped, you know, I don't feel like I've stopped. The training was just the beginning. It goes on every day. 

Dr Peter Blundell: It's lovely to hear that.[00:18:00]

I was just sat here thinking how long we've known each other, but we've never had that, this conversation. Until right this moment, and I was thinking all the other conversations we've had, um, and I've not heard, I've not heard that journey before. So that was, um, that was lovely to hear. Um, and I feel like that journey, that transformational bit, I feel like I've heard so many people talk about that when they've connected with the person centered approach, how meaningful it's been to them.

Um, So I was thinking about my own journey and there's similarities there. So I, um, so way, way back before, uh, I'd even done my degree or anything, I was working in, uh, finance, uh, um, yeah, um, loans and mortgages and things like that. Um, and, you know, did not enjoy that at all. Loved the people I worked with, but really did not enjoy that, [00:19:00] uh, at all.

Um, and I was in a, I was living up in Scotland. It was a, I was in a relationship and I'd moved there because of that reason. Um, and then I'd kind of just needed to find a job when I was there and kind of fell into it. And I actually tried to start an introduction to counselling course. While I was 10 week course and I actually dropped out of it after three or four weeks.

It was, I think it was a person centered course, if I remember rightly. Just, and I'd forgotten about this, but just reminded me as you were, as you were talking, that, and thinking back why I dropped out, was I was so emotionally unregulated that I couldn't cope with that feeling. Process, even on that introductory course, the commitment to it, the personal exploration, the sitting with my own process, um, just it, I was not, it was not possible for me.

Um, and, and so, I mean, I, I dropped out, it was only a short course [00:20:00] and it's strange because at the time. I almost thought this is not for me, but then there must have been a part of me that, that some of the things that I'd learned on there stayed with me in some way. And so, um, I didn't go to university until I was 26.

So I left Scotland. I broke up with the person I was in a relationship with. Um, and I went to university at 26 to do psychology. Um, and as I was doing that degree, uh, realized that this was not going to help me work with people. At all. And I had some wonderful tutors and I did learn about, um, some counseling theory and, um, some things that might be useful, but practically I was like, well, I know all this theoretical stuff.

I don't, I don't, I don't know how to work with people. Like how, you know, how, where'd you learn to do that? And that's when I came back around to the idea of, oh, maybe doing this introductory [00:21:00] counseling course again would be the best way for me to do that. Um, and so. So I did that, only expecting to do this 10 week course and kind of, you know, learn the basics or whatever.

And as soon as I started it, a little bit like your journey, started to realize I've never heard of Carl Rogers before. Um, didn't understand person centered theory, uh, or process, and quite quickly realized that this seemed to be the missing piece for me in terms of, understanding my own process and why I dropped out of that course in the first place and why I struggled emotionally a lot of the time.

I should say like full of anxiety, um, bouncing from one thing to the next, trying to almost find my place in the world, but based on all those other people's opinions that they thought what I should be doing or shouldn't be doing. Um, so after doing [00:22:00] that 10 week course, I then, um, I then went on to the, uh, year long skills course, and then went on to do the diploma.

So mine was all at level two, three, and then level, level four. So it wasn't a kind of, uh, you know, the full on degree or master's level. Um, but I would say I'm just thinking back to the whole, that would be like three and a half, four years of training. For me, that was a really, really, really painful process.

That self introspection, whilst also doing it in a group process, I found really, really painful, um, and quite difficult. Um, and there was lots of reasons for that. There was different ways it was facilitated. There was maybe just sometimes the size of the group, um, and just my understanding of myself. It was really, really difficult.

And so. I've always had this particularly in groups almost like this [00:23:00] love hate relationship where moments of connection and community and transformation for me, but then also really painful processes, which continues this day now I can, I can have both in it in a group setting in a very short space of time.

Um, and it wasn't, I fell in love with the person centered approach. But I don't think it was until a couple of years after I'd completed my training that I actually realized how much I'd learned as part of the process. And it took a long time for it to sink in for me. Um, and for it to, yeah, I suppose that for the incongruence within me to kind of shift and settle a little bit.

Um, and it took me a long time for that, that process to kind of embed, I suppose. Um, and so [00:24:00] now I still see myself on a learning journey around how a person centered approach, I teach it like my students might hear that I'd be surprised to hear that I'm going to teach on a master's program and seeing people go through their own transformational journey is a privilege.

Both as seeing clients and also students, but also I think for me being able to see how each person's journey has been so unique and that each therapist that leaves training is completely different from the last one. Um, I find absolutely amazing and reaffirms the approach to me. The more I see that, the more I believe that it is the approach that's best for me and that I believe in.

Thank you. So, yeah. 

Helen Skelton: Yeah, I, I really resonate with that. I, I think, like I said, the training was [00:25:00] only the beginning of, of my learning journey. And I think,

you know, one of the amazing things about this work is that I think I become a different person after every single session. I've learned something and I change. It's not just the client who hopefully changes or find something that helps them change, but I change and. That continuing daily growth, if you like, or expansion.

I don't like the word growth much because it suggests it's been hijacked for me and it suggests we have to be going in a positive direction. I don't know what that is. So that I use expansion instead generally getting bigger. Um,

I, I kind of can't quite separate that from the training journey. It doesn't feel like it's ever stopped or ever will. And that's, you know, part of the beauty of it. [00:26:00] Um, and the humility of it, you know, I'm, I'm never done. I'm always a student. in this. Um, and one of the things, well, I wanted to say two things, you know, one is that I've stayed in a group.

I have a phenomenal group here. If there are five of us, um, who have been together for a long, long time now, and it is very, very challenging and we each practice in a different way. But I would say that those person centered values are Clear in all of us in and they manifest in very, very different, different ways, but part of it has been the depth of the.

You know, UPR empathy and congruence in that group over many years. It has been painful. It has been shameful. It has been the most expansive thing I've been in. It has been the most loving thing. You know, it's, it's really been a very powerful [00:27:00] experience. And that kind of group setting of person centered offerings, I think is a, is a really has, has been, I'm an only child.

I was never a group person. You know, the, the. Going into the group in training was excruciating, but I've also found my biggest learning has been in person centered encounter groups, I think have been, or any kind of group have actually provided me with my biggest learning about who am I in the world?

What are my judgments? You know, how, where, where are my limits to empathy? How can I learn to be brave? How can I dare to be congruent and brave? There's just been nothing like it. And the other thing I just want to speak to was you began to suggest a kind of spaciousness. I think in the approach, and that's one of the things that I haven't really found in many parts of my life, you know, what I loved about personality theory, for example, if we just sort of bring [00:28:00] theory and practice or theory and living together is it kind of goes just far enough.

For me, and it stops at the point of typologizing or categorizing or pathologizing and there feels something very, very deliberate and generous. In that, you know, it's like, these are and of course it all came out of observation. It was research based. So this wasn't a theory that then can we see it happening.

It was like, this is what I have seen in all these recordings, like these are the general, um, experiences that we go through as we develop that cause distress and incongruence. And, and I don't really haven't yet met anybody that that doesn't fit into in some way. Um, and then it's like, and what is the space for us to understand ourselves?

Really, like you say, uniquely, [00:29:00] really, um, and I don't mean individually, you know, I don't think it's an individualist theory at all, and perhaps we'll come on to that, but, but really have the heart to appreciate the wonder of each individual person's version after that. 

Dr Peter Blundell: And I think for me, I've spoken about this on another podcast, actually, there was a revelation around separating out different people's processes.

And seeing them as distinct and how I can influence somebody else's process and impact it, but it's still not mine. And it seems like such a, even when I talk about it now, seems like such a basic thing. But it's still something I have to remind myself about constantly. In terms of. how I am in the world and what is going on for me, it's not necessarily what's going on for everybody [00:30:00] else and being able to understand that and explore that and, um, yeah, and that idea of expansiveness for me is, well it's an expansiveness out with connection with the world but for me it's also an expansiveness inside as well as I explore the depth, the depth of myself, um, and yeah, that's Amazing, because as part of developing as a therapist, it's not, it is about your client, but obviously you need to also be congruent within yourself and within the relationship to give the best for your client.

So I need to do that self exploration as well. 

Helen Skelton: Somebody once said to me when I, when I, I think I was probably in my first year of training and I went to somebody who's now a very, very dear friend. But then was a kind of, um, revered elder that I was slightly frightened of, I think. I remember having a conversation with her and I said, okay, I think I get empathy and UPR, which [00:31:00] I kind of did in my, in my way, but that has also expanded massively.

Um, but I don't, I just don't get congruence. When did you get congruence? And she said to me tomorrow. And I absolutely love that. And I remember it so clearly because it's like, yeah, that I mean, actually, I think my understanding of empathy and UPR changes by the day deepens by the day. Um, and I don't think that will ever change.

ever change either. But really that understanding that congruence is always something I'm kind of growing towards or, um, becoming, you know, and that that's a never ending process. It's such a generous thing. 

Dr Peter Blundell: I think I was thinking about the difference there between when Roger's talked about being congruent in the relationship.

And I think that's what I'm always trying to work on with, uh, with, uh, with a client. Um, And how that doesn't necessarily always mean that I'm completely congruent in the rest of my, the rest of my life, [00:32:00] you know. Um, or with the client for that matter, it's always a work in progress. But, you know, that, that working towards congruence for me, it's always a, it's always a process.

It's never, never, never to be achieved, you know. 

Helen Skelton: I think that with all of the, um, all of the conditions actually, I think, and I include, Condition one in that psychological contact and my understanding of that has changed over the years, um, particularly as we bring in kind of neuroscientific understandings and, and, uh, embodied somatic understandings.

I think we can understand, or I've come to understand psychological contact in new ways. Um, But I think all of those things are an intention. You know, the minute I think I'm an empathic person, I think I'm in trouble. Or the minute I think, yeah, I don't judge people, I'm in trouble because I'm not always empathic and I do judge people.

And [00:33:00] it has to be a decision and it has to be a practice and it has to be an intention. 

Dr Peter Blundell: I say that to a lot of students. The moment that you sit in front of a client and think, Oh, I know what's going on here. I've got, I really feel completely understand this. That's when you really need to focus on your empathy.

Because you probably haven't, you're missing something. Yeah. Because how can you possibly know? 

Helen Skelton: That person's experience, like, yeah, you might have got some of it really, really beautifully. Yeah. But yeah, these are, these are always things that we're kind of, well, for me that I'm leaning into. And like I say, it's a choice, you know, every morning, the older I get, the more I understand how important practice is to me that having daily practice, that life is a practice, that it's a choice that I, how I choose to engage.

And I think it's a daily choice. Like, am I going to try and be empathic? Um, [00:34:00] am I going to notice where I'm judging this person and try to move away from that? Maybe we'll come later, but I've really begun to think of UPR as taking people seriously in an incredibly deep way rather than non judgment recently, which has helped me.

Um, and, and am I going to try and be as congruent as I can be today? You know, 

Dr Peter Blundell: I love that taking people seriously. Um, I think there's, you know, just thinking about that and I'm thinking about how many clients and include myself as a client have gone into therapy and worried. Are you going to believe me?

Are you going to take me seriously? Is what I've got to bring enough for therapy? You know, um, um, And so that idea of, yeah, taking someone seriously when they're sat in front of you and what they're, what they're bringing. Many people won't have had that before.

Helen Skelton: For me, it's part of like, judgment is part of that, but the point of not judging somebody, [00:35:00] you know, yeah, the amount of clients I've had who don't, It's not even that they don't think they're going to be believed.

It's going to be, I believe you, but you're thinking's wrong. You know, or if you just, and it's actually, can you take, I can, can I really take your experience? Seriously, I think I learned that working in universities actually with, um, as a therapist in universities and just that moment of being taken seriously was really transformational for young people.

You know, often they came in with some of them with little baggage, some of them with tremendous baggage already in their young lives, but with little baggage comparative to having families and children and mortgages. And there was a point at which it's like, you're not a teacher or a parent. You're not telling me I should be doing it like this instead.

Like, Like you're actually taking what I think seriously and just that [00:36:00] moment was transformational. It was like, okay, I can, I can go and be the, I can take myself seriously out there in the world. Really. 

Dr Peter Blundell: There was, there was a, um, there was a psychodynamic therapist on social media who had said something along the misquote here, but it was along the lines of most clients Most clients arrive and aren't serious about change, they don't ultimately want to change, and that's the battle.

And I remember reading that quote and thinking, I think I agree most clients don't want to change, but I don't see that as the battle. With the person centered approach for me is that idea that You're okay as you are and that I'm creating a space for you to explore that and I have found more clients do change by offering that space and that approach [00:37:00] or those conditions or those attitudes and, but I have no investment in terms of whether they do change or not.

Does that make sense? 

Helen Skelton: Yeah, absolutely makes sense. And I was thinking, you know, for some people, it might be, no, I can be more of my, and actually that's the change if you like. Yeah. Be more of myself rather than having to be different. I can trust myself and what a gift that is. Um, and there is change in that, if you like, in, in the shift to trusting, but yeah, I have no investment in what the direction is.

And I'm interested in the don't want to change because. You know, when, when we think about how neuroscience has informed therapy and how important it is, particularly to understand, you know, our nervous system and threat, which Is, is everywhere. The understanding of that is everywhere. And I think it's so important that fight, flight, freeze, fawn response, you know, it's [00:38:00] so powerful to understand our processes.

And Roger said, you know, almost preempting for me, what came beyond the scientific understanding that came later, how can I not be a threat to this person? And he kind of understood that threat reduces the capacity to change, whether that is. having the confidence to stay the same or having the confidence to be different.

He really understood that threat is what gets in the way. And for me, what isn't spoken about enough, um, is that change is absolutely terrifying. And it's not that people don't want to change. It's that it's terrifying to change our whole systems of life based on us being the same, you know, and, and, If one part of the puzzle changes, the other parts have to, and people don't want to when it's not their process.

[00:39:00] So they resist and it becomes more frightening and more shaming. So I think there's a, I, I don't want, I don't know who that person was. I'm not sort of picking holes in that, but for me, a sort of more humane way into that is for most people, change is really frightening and how can we just allow space for that to be and see what happens.

Dr Peter Blundell: And that's to see what happens for me is really important because it could go anywhere and the more, this is a bit similar to what I've said before, but the more I've become certain in what I think the client should be doing, the less safe space I'm creating for that client.

Helen Skelton: Yeah, trust is,

trust is so important for me in my work. And that's, again, where I've, I wouldn't say [00:40:00] I incorporate loads of different theories into my work. In practice, I don't think it looks like that, but I'm a I'm a kind of collector of ideas. I've always been that. So I love ideas that come from all sorts of things and they inform who I am.

And, you know, I certainly don't feel like a rigid or limited person, but nothing yet has kind of brought the foundations for me. They're all little additions that help me understand the world or relationships or myself, but nothing has provided the foundations yet for me in the way that I am. person centeredness does.

And one of those is my belief in the actualizing tendency. And I want to say really clearly that one of the things that gets mistaken so often is the understanding that that's some kind of moral thing or that that's something towards positive growth. The actualizing tendency is just like a plant. We just keep growing [00:41:00] and the formative tendency, we just keep going and getting more complex.

Like that is all it is, is an observation that we are constantly changing and becoming more complex. There's nothing about enhancement or positive growth or anything, you know, in that for me. But the thing that it gives me my, my trust and my faith in the actualizing tendency is my capacity to trust other people.

And there's something about pacing that they may not. grow, change, whatever that means, stay the same, whatever that means, in the timeframe that I expect or might work for me or, um, that might make me feel comfortable, for example. But I really have learned that if I can provide this

space that is genuine, genuinely [00:42:00] without threat, and that is a hard thing to do. And again, it's a practice and a decision and an observation of myself every day. Um, I can trust that something is going to happen for that person, which is, I'm going to say better for them. I hate all these words, but, but something of is that place where people can feel more settled, feel more peace, feel more alignment.

All those, all those concepts and trust is so important for me, you know, is, is I do trust that given these conditions, if you like, given this, this space. Something is going to happen for you that is going to help you. 

Dr Peter Blundell: And that for me, as you were talking is where I have a, an issue or a difficulty with the idea of goals in [00:43:00] therapy in terms of when I'm working with somebody.

Yeah, probably most people come with some kind of goal that they want to work towards. But for me, the amount of times I've seen as part of the process that that isn't actually what I Is worked towards in the end, it is something else because of the incongruence, because quite often as people were working towards other people's objectives and ideas of what we think we should be doing that actually, I'm not saying I never set goals with clients or don't allow them to set goals, but what I think what I'm saying is that quite often they shift and change and the realizations or the piece or the whatever the shift is that happens isn't, isn't always aligned with Those ideas of what people arrive with in the first place.

Helen Skelton: I might be making a massive generalization, but I actually can't think of one [00:44:00] client or myself where the initial goal is where the, where the trajectory has gone. You know, there's always when that space around it opens up. Oh, there's some actually there's something else. And that goal is just a kind of symbol or a magnet if you like to draw us in a particular direction, but it's rarely it.

Yeah. It always seems to transform into something more, um, internal, something more personal, something more, uh, frightening and potentially shameful. Um, something much more delicate and precious, actually, than, than what, what is kind of cited at the beginning as, as the goal. 

Dr Peter Blundell: Um, it's now reminding me of, um, the challenges that some of us as persons and developers have. working in other organizations, [00:45:00] and um, I remember Actually, I've seen this in multiple organizations, actually, not just ones I've worked in, but like, say, an organization like a grief counseling setting, say, for example, and, um, and the policy of the agency is, well, once the clients work through their grief, then you need to stop working with them. You need to stop working with them then because it's no longer about what the server is providing. I've heard students kind of ask that question, might not just be grief counts, it could be, you know, any, any topic, if you like, or theme, um, and how reductive that is and how, how do you, how do you know that this is no longer grief work, if you like, however you're labelling it.

Helen Skelton: Well, also how damaging it is potentially in terms of it leading to incongruence, you know, actually for me that is instilling incongruence because it means that 10 years later when that person is feeling terrible about something. There's a [00:46:00] resistance to understanding that this is grief, because it's like, oh, I worked through that.

I've done that. And you know my experience to look grief never ends. You know, grief actually gets bigger in lots of ways. It changes and it shifts and it transforms. But if we're telling people we've done something, they're even more confused when it comes back, it can't be. 

Dr Peter Blundell: I was thinking of the idea of the, the, that grief example I've given is the idea that, Oh, we're just doing this. And then we're moving through something and it, and it, and it's resolved. And I suppose what I was thinking about was. Okay, so we've talked about grief, but then we'll talk about this other thing which might seem completely unrelated, but actually quite often will be interconnected somewhere. And so we're not going like this, we're going like this, but actually it's, it's, Potentially, well it, not potentially, it is all interconnected in terms of a person's [00:47:00] life and, and how they experience the world.

Helen Skelton: And it can work the other way, can't it? Sometimes, you know, kind of, I don't know, a problem might be something that's happening at work. And that's what comes in and that's what, and then there's a discovery that actually the thing is grief. What is happening at work is that things aren't working out as, as we longed for, as we yearned for and dreamed for.

And there's something much greater. greater going on below it. Um, that people are carrying. Yeah. Much more isolated and lonely way and unwitnessed and unheld way. 

Dr Peter Blundell: Yeah. I was thinking about that idea of, of someone struggling with work and wondering why all of a sudden can I not cope with work and, and that very closed box of, Oh, it must be work.

So let's explore every aspect of work potentially. And you're stuck in this very narrow. idea of experience. And as you say, if it's something else, like grief or something that's over here, that we're not [00:48:00] even going to go there because that's not, that couldn't possibly be about what it's about. We're limiting, limiting somebody in terms of that exploration and, and yeah, yeah.

Helen Skelton: There's something too about, for me, there's a, I don't want to be too, um, What do I want to say? I don't, I don't want, I don't mean this in a rigid or a limiting way. And I don't think that this is all that therapy is. I think people come for many reasons and there are many ways of addressing what people need.

Um, and every client will, will, will, I guess we'll come onto that. You know, one of the misconceptions about person centeredness being rigid. And for me, it's the most creative approach, but perhaps we can come onto that later. I never worked the same with anybody in the same way. Um, But there's something about therapy as a sacred space.[00:49:00]

And I know that that that will invite criticism and I'm here for it, but, um, there's something, you know, quite often students, you know, beginning and I understand the question is, you know, but if you know something, why wouldn't you tell them? Like, if you've got some advice, why wouldn't you say it? Isn't it, you know, unethical to withhold it or something?

That's a really complicated thing. And my, my answer is generally it depends. in lots of ways, because I do think withholding of information is an act of power. So I think we have to be careful. Um, but there's something about looking at the person in the wider context of their life. And you can be sure that the mom or the friend or the boss or the aunt or the dad or whoever it is, Their lives are filled for most people.

Some people, of [00:50:00] course, live more isolated, lonely lives, but many people, Instagram, TV documentaries, whatever it is, are bombarded with advice. And most of the advice is probably good and comes from people who love you and comes from people who want, who want the best for you. But what there is so rarely in the world, particularly in the world of social media and internet where we're just bombarded with things all the time, is space.

And space to kind of sift through all that and go, what really relates to me? What do I really think? What part of what all these people are saying to me really touches me? What part really helps me? So I don't want my voice on the whole to add to the cacophony that's already out there and there's something about

what kind of sacred [00:51:00] emptiness can I hold where more bombardment doesn't come in, where more noise doesn't come in, and where there is just the place of silence, if you like, and I'm kind of talking about how can we gradually reach a place of internal silence where you can go, Oh, That's my bit. That's the bit that works for me.

That's the bit where I'm not trying to please him or do it for her. You know, this is where I feel peace. And I think there is something about really remembering that sometimes I'm not going to say that it's rigid and that's what therapy always must look like. But sometimes that sacred space is the thing that we can offer that the world just doesn't offer and that is a gift.

for that. 

Dr Peter Blundell: And one of the things I was thinking about when you talked about, I was, that Civ idea is if you become the sieve for the client, then, [00:52:00] um, they're not trusting their own internal, uh, locus of evaluation. It's now, Oh, the therapist is the expert. They're sieving through all this information and they'll tell me what's the right thing to do.

And as you say, it's more nuanced than that because there may be times when you might answer a question or, or, or even give advice potentially depending on what, what, what it, what it might be. Um, but generally there's a, there's a risk with that if you do that.

Helen Skelton: Yeah. And that's part of our own, you know, going back to being congruent therapists, I think that's part of, The art of therapy is making those clinical decisions.

Um, and those assessments on a moment by moment basis, like, like I've got, and it's, it's complicated, isn't it? I'm listening to this person and I'm thinking. Is this going to be useful? What is the further impact? You know, you've done grief, just to use that as a kind of [00:53:00] clunky, um, example. But you know, what is the wider impact of, of this thing that I want to offer going to be?

Is it worth it? 

Dr Peter Blundell: Is it worth the risk? 

Helen Skelton: Is it worth the risk? And sometimes it is, and sometimes it's not. 

Dr Peter Blundell: Sometimes we don't know the answer to that until after we've done it.

Um, so I think we've got about half an hour more time that we, we, we scheduled and we said we were also, we thought this would stimulate quite a lot, lots of discussion between us and potentially other people out there who might be listening to it as well. But we thought we would chat a little bit about some of the common misconceptions around what it means to be person centered.

Um, and I think it's an interesting. question because I feel like, and maybe I'm completely biased here because I'm person [00:54:00] centred, but I feel like the stereotypes around person centredness are quite rife within the profession and sometimes I feel like we get a harder People are harder on us than other, other modalities.

But I'm sure other people in other modalities might be listening to this and going, Oh no, it's far harsher for us. So it's probably because I'm within it. Um, but we thought we'd kind of talk about some of those and, and, um, yeah, see what they are and, and how we feel about them. Did you have any particular ones that came to mind?

Helen Skelton: And I just wanted to support what you said that I. One of the things that I find sort of breaks my heart a little bit each time I hear of it are courses where, you know, they, there may be a kind of integrative approach or a combined approach to things. And there may be, I mean, I've heard of one recently where, you know, it says that we, we, person [00:55:00] centeredness is part of it.

And there's literally two days on the course, which teaches the core conditions. Um, and taught by somebody who's never studied person centeredness. And I always find that just a little bit heartbreaking because there are so many assumptions made that it's this simplistic thing. And I, I guess that leads on to, you know, the ideas that there are really only three conditions and many people do come out not knowing that there's six and that all six, six are really important.

Um, and that it is simplistic. somehow, and that it's kind of kind and nice, um, and not enough. And actually when I did my, I did a master's and my research was into where the person centeredness is challenging. So that's another misconception is that it's not challenging enough. You know, that [00:56:00] hasn't been my experience.

Um, which way am I going to go here? I think there is a way that person centered practice can be passive and unchallenging. I don't really call that person centered practice. And I think that lots of, um, more contemporary developments, shall I say, have come on the back of that kind of practice. And actually, for me, the development is how can we make, how can we turn that into person centered practice, rather than being something passive and, um, superficial, if you like.

Um, superficial doesn't sound like a great word, but it, you know what I mean, kind of surface level, um, non intentional work. 

Dr Peter Blundell: Um, that, that feeds into me, that idea of. [00:57:00] And again, I don't know if, if people are practicing like this, but again, I, it's that stereotype of the therapist that sits and nods and doesn't, and doesn't say anything.

Or when they do say something, they just repeat back the words that the, that the client is saying. Now, that could be very powerful, an empathic response, but there's something for me around that. way of being and you've got part of the conditions is that the client receives your empathy or feels it in some way.

And if you're practicing where you're just repeating back the words the client in a robotic fashion, whether there is intention behind that or not, if that does not land with the client as feeling heard, then you're not, you're not providing the right conditions for that, for that client. So that for me is that, [00:58:00] that there's a stereotype out there, maybe some people are practicing in that way, but if they are then that the conditions aren't being, the conditions aren't being met.

Helen Skelton: And where is the assessment in that as well? You know, there's something about the importance of ongoing assessment. It's like, how can I tell from the client's responses? How can I tell that they're receiving my empathy, that they're receiving my nonjudgment and that that's an ongoing part of, of the practice for me.

And one of the things I feel very passionate about is that each of those conditions provides Deep challenge, you know, they've provided me anyway with the deepest challenge I've, I've had both to offer them actually and to receive them. I think genuinely being in psychological contact with somebody is very, very difficult.

I think it's frightening, you know, it's like the looking eye to either. Not that that necessarily means it, but actually daring are [00:59:00] our hearts speaking, are we?

Are we listening to respond? Or are we really deeply listening and taking in what this other person is saying? Are we risking? You know, all of that I think is deeply challenging for people to be in genuine psychological contact. Can we genuinely offer empathy to another? Like you were saying, can we really see what is mine and what is theirs and keep, keep mine out of it.

And to receive empathy is extremely challenging because. It's not necessarily about kindness and there's something about if we're only reflecting the parts of the client that the client wants to see. We're offering limited help and actually part of the empathic responding and where UPR is so important is can we also reflect, uh, bear with that word because I know Roger's never really used it, [01:00:00] but you know, can we offer the client that mirror to the parts of them that are most unbearable to see that is also deeply empathic transformational practice.

And risky and dangerous. And that is the challenge of empathy. Can I see those parts of me that I feel most shame about? I feel most discomfort about. I think genuinely receiving empathy is, is incredibly difficult and incredibly challenging. Again, I think UPR, because those parts of ourselves, we feel no UPR for, you know, we cannot believe they can be accepted by another person.

So actually believing, receiving UPR is a, it's a very challenging offer to people. Can you trust that I still accept you even though you've told me these things? That you can't accept yourself for? It's a deeply challenging offer to people, genuine UPR. [01:01:00] Um, And again, the congruent therapist kind of inviting congruence from the client.

Congruence is terrifying. You know, that's been my experience. Actually, being who I feel I am openly in the world has been the most terrifying thing I've ever done. Still is. I did it last week, was terrified, went horribly wrong. It was like, it's like, that is a very, very challenging process. The invitation to, to be congruent with another congruent person is a very, very challenging process.

Um, deeply risky, deeply threatening. So I want to kind of unpick in that way, the, the misconception that, that person centeredness is kind of tea and sympathy. Or it's not enough. I think actually it is a deeply chat or there is an invitation [01:02:00] in it. If both parties wish to engage in it. And the therapist really has to make that choice and invitation in it to be so deeply human in a way that.

We don't often dare to be, um, and that's powerful and difficult and, and scary and challenging and beautiful on when we can enter into when we can dare to enter into that dance with each other. 

Dr Peter Blundell: And for me, that's the depths of the person centred approach, and how I'm constantly learning about that. And.

Students often ask me, have you trained in other things? And I've like, I've done training in lots of other bits and pieces of different types of therapy. And I still feel like I've not mastered the person centered approach. So to, to feel like I need to do anything else when I haven't fully, fully [01:03:00] gone to the depth, I don't think of what the person centered approach can do.

I have no particular interest in trying to draw things off the shelf when, yeah, that this for me is The approach I'm committed to and learning at depth and the more other things that I bring in or draw in, I feel detract me away from the depths of that approach because all of a sudden I'm not delving in deeper and pulling away from the person centered approach for me.

Helen Skelton: Yeah, I, I really agree with that. And I, and I want to talk to, um, You know, I, I think it's very difficult to articulate and I, and I think I get what you're saying and I think I feel what you're saying and I think it can be hard to articulate and that leads to another misconception, which is the person centered practitioner is just doing one thing and they have an [01:04:00] agenda.

Um, you know, we are just offering. One thing, um, and that it is led by the person centered practitioner. And there's something for me about, you know, I use the analogy of dance quite often, each client I will do a different dance with. And it is very, very responsive. You know, if I'm just standing on one side of the dance floor, doing my thing, and they need me on the other side, this is not going to work. You know, my job is to be responsive to them deeply, empathically, non judgmentally, congruently responsive to them.

And that is a very alive and active process. I'm one of the parts of the approach that's I haven't actually seen taught in any program, really, including the one that I've taught on, [01:05:00] but speaks to my heart is in on becoming a person when Rogers describes this as a theory of creativity. Um, and in the seven stages of process, you know, the, the idea of fixity to flow, what he describes it as, which I think is so beautiful and kind of makes my heart sing is that this is about creative living.

And that's the sort of existential end, I think, of the person centered approach. It is about being in a place of self trust where you can make moment by moment choices that come from a place of openness rather than defensiveness and come from a place of hope and creativity and living the life that we really most want to be living and being the person we really most want to be being rather than being who we think we need to be or ought to be or should be or [01:06:00] you know that that really getting into that place of non defensiveness is about choice Um, you know, all the Viktor Frankl stuff, it's where it all merges for me, it's like, what can I do with this?

Who do I want to be in this moment? And I think that's what Rogers was also talking about, you know, in this theory of how can I live a creative life? And for some people, that might mean painting. For other people, it might just mean being genuinely free to choose how I respond to this moment. Um, and that that is creativity and I don't think that gets spoken about enough and so this misconception that the person centered person is just offering one thing.

Um, and, and it is directing people in one direction. That is not my experience of my work. And that is not my experience of the theory. And actually this [01:07:00] really, and that's the thing about why I don't think it's an individualistic theory either. Roger spoke about once we are free, we are also pro social.

We want the best for ourselves and for our communities, because we understand that that we are community. We can't have the best for ourselves if it's not also the best for our community and that is also for me, absolutely, in Roger's own words, and that we learn to dance with each other. in a, in a responsive, beautiful, um, creative way.

Dr Peter Blundell: It's making me think about non directivity. And, um, for me, it's always that, what feels like a paradox by not, by not doing something, by providing an attitude and the conditions that change happens. But not necessarily in the way that you would expect and that idea of [01:08:00] actually to have that space to, to understand who you are, are actually enables you to be somebody different, somebody different, if you want, if you wish, you know, um, and so that idea of creativity for me is tapping into. whatever it is that you want to do, or however it is that you want to express yourself, um, that is guided by you and not necessarily guided by any other person, organization, or system. 

Helen Skelton: I think that's really important. 'cause that leads us onto the, you know, one of the most common misconceptions that non directivity means.

The therapist doesn't do anything. Honestly, the heartbreak, I feel when I hear that, um, we are always doing something, you know, if we are congruent presences, I love Sherry Geller's, work on presence. You know, if we are, if we are congruent actual presences, we are always doing something. That's where it comes back to choice is, [01:09:00] is what do we wanna choose to do.

Um, we do set parameters, you know, we have contracts, we have time limits. We agree to be there at a certain time and to stay for a certain time. Um, we choose to which bit is use, we think is most useful to respond to. We're making decisions all the time. So non directivity for me is absolutely nothing to do with not doing anything.

It's to do with trust. And sometimes I think, how would I conceptualize non directivity? And it's something like my deep trust. in the capacity of the person to be self governing. And that's what I need to remember. And that is the attitude that I want to bring to my work is trust in that person. Um, I had a client who once spoke about our work as a nuclear container and he said, you know, [01:10:00] you are the container in which all the chaos can happen.

And there is something about, I really have to pay attention to what I'm doing. So I'm not doing nothing. I am making sure that container is leak proof. I am making sure that that container is safe. Um, I'm making sure that I respond in a way that I understand is most helpful to this person. And that will be different from the client I had before.

Um, but I am not getting away, getting in the way of their capacity to be self governing. I'm not getting in the way of a generosity and a love and a trust in that person and their right to be self governing too. 

Dr Peter Blundell: Um, which leads me to the idea of, um, person centered therapists are not allowed to ask questions.

Which is a, well, I actually know some people do teach person centered [01:11:00] therapy, a theory like that. You know, is that a question should not, should not be asked. Um, and for me, I do ask questions. And for me, it's about that. about the conditions and is this coming from a place of empathy of really trying to understand what it is the client is trying to talk about and share as part of their, as part of their process, not necessarily just because I'm interested in what about, what about this, say for example.

Helen Skelton: Yes, absolutely. I really like, um, Barbara broadly provides some kind of a kind of guidance on, you know, when I think she speaks when, when is when to speak from a therapist frame of reference. And I rarely find anything different than she said, I really like that paper. 

Dr Peter Blundell: We can put a link for that in this show notes.

Helen Skelton: It's very short, I think, and it's very instructive. But one of the [01:12:00] biggest things and I'm a question asker for sure. Um, and again, moment by moment assessment of that. But for me, it is about empathy. You know, there is something if I assume I understand, there may be arrogance in that, you know, there may be a lack of humility in that.

And there is something Particularly as, as our understanding has grown, particularly issues of identity, intersectionality, like we said at the beginning, you know, anti oppressive practice, there is much I don't know and there is much I don't understand. And I need to be aware of that and how that affects my empathy.

And I really may need to know more, you know, and, and sometimes I might say, can you help me understand that a bit? a bit better that phrases like that, I, I think I probably use quite a lot because there is something about, you know, Margaret Warner's levels of [01:13:00] empathy. Like, yeah, I might get a basic understanding.

Can I really understand how that is for you? Can I really understand what it is like to be you in the world right now? And sometimes I need to ask more because otherwise I'm assuming I know. 

Dr Peter Blundell: And some of those questions for me, link in to unconditional positive regard because they indicate like a client might be sitting there going, do you really care about me and my life and what's and what's going on.

And I think a question can indicate here. I am curious. I am interested. I do want to, like you said, want to take you seriously, um, and explore this, you know, um, 

Helen Skelton: I think that goes back to the, to, to my kind of reconception of UPR as taking people seriously. Which incorporates nonjudgment, but it's much deeper than that.

Um, and I can picture clients now [01:14:00] who, again, it's challenging. It's like, are you really interested? Like, are you really asking me? Like nobody's ever been interested. Before even on kind of what does that word mean to you or something like I just want to I want to make sure it's not my meaning. I'm imposing on my understanding.

I want to make sure it's yours like the shock for people that somebody can be genuinely interested. And often there is work in in that I know there has been for me like, I don't know whether I believe you. You know, I don't believe I don't know whether I can hold somebody being interested in me because it feels frightening.

But for me, there is an invitation to locus of evaluation in that, and I don't mean that in a kind of mechanical way, um, you know, to really touch somebody's soul. I mean, in that way, and it's a very beautiful offering to genuinely be [01:15:00] interested in somebody rather than to make assumptions about what, what they're talking about.

Um, so yeah, I think questions are a powerful demonstration of an intention towards empathy. and uh, and are taking somebody seriously. And a congruent awareness, it links with all of those conditions to me, a congruent awareness of, of, of what I don't know, or of what I think I know. but might not be relevant.

Dr Peter Blundell: Um, I feel like I should have asked this at the beginning and now I'm coming to the end and I'm thinking maybe, maybe, maybe I'll, maybe we'll ask this question but, um, because it might be interesting, actually maybe it might be interesting doing it this way, people hear you describe your practice, how would you label your approach now?

And is it important? Is it even important?

Helen Skelton: In some ways, I don't think it's important. And in other [01:16:00] ways, I think I almost think it's sort of politically important, because I do feel like the person centered approach is under attack, um, in a way that I don't think is fair right now. And I don't think is deep. And I don't think is respectful, um, of.

The depth in the approach and the beauty and the, and the simplicity. Um, you know, I think that those six conditions are. ever visitable and how they manifest in the world comes out in so many different ways. You know, the more I visit empathy, the more I visit UPR, the more complex, the more deep and offering, um, they become the more creative they become, but I rarely need.

It's [01:17:00] like they become bigger concepts to me rather than different concepts. So. I would probably describe myself if I had to, and I've had this discussion with Sheila Haugh a few times. Um, I think my practice is probably different from Sheila's. I think, I think it's different from yours. I imagine if we all watched each other, but I think I would describe myself as a classical person centered therapist in a contemporary world. So I think what I mean by that is that my knowledge and understanding has expanded. beyond the approach in terms of neuroscientific understanding, how these things inform me and who I am and how I understand human process. Um, in a way that Rogers would have supported, you know, he was a researcher.[01:18:00]

He wanted new evidence. He, he, he was creative. He, he wanted to be, beware the iron chains of dogma, I think he said. So, so yeah, I think I still the six conditions. And the theory of change that comes in the seven stages of process and the idea of moving from fixity to creativity are the underpinning values of my work.

You know, there are no others. I can keep coming back to them. And I can try other things and they don't help me as much. They help me a bit, but actually they help me understand my empathic understanding or my empathic limitations, or they help me understand where I'm not, you know, again, my, my congruent limitations or my judgmental limitations actually in the being that I offer.

Um, yeah, [01:19:00] the other things, other, other ideas help me help inform my practice of those six conditions and my understanding that. given trust, people move from fixity to flow or towards creativity. And in the end, I've, I've never found any concepts that work better. Um, so I guess in that way, I would call myself a classical person centered therapist.

Um, but that again, is not a rigid thing. It's, it's a practice and it incorporates and it gets wider, it gets deeper and it gets broader. 

Dr Peter Blundell: Um, I, It, it does make sense and I, I'd just be very interested to hear how people heard you describe your work and understanding of theory and then how you label it and I just wondered, wondered, wondered. what that journey might be like for people. Um, I would [01:20:00] describe myself as a person centered / experiential therapist. If I could increase the letters of the person centered, the size of the letter, the font, and then reduce the size of the experiential, I would do it that way to represent where the core of my practice is.

Um, it's interesting every time I hear that word the classical I. I have a reaction to it. Um, because I feel like it has actually, this is maybe more an external locus of evaluation. It's not necessarily my feelings about it. I worry how other people interpret the idea of, of, of classical actually. 

Helen Skelton: Yeah, I completely concur with that.

That's my fear in saying it is that I think it. Yeah, looks in people's heads. It makes my practice looks and I fear that that people will imagine my practice to be something different than it is. 

Dr Peter Blundell: Absolutely. I imagine a rolling [01:21:00] of eyes and people imagining you're practicing therapy like it's the 40s.

That's, that's, that's, that's on one side nodding and being being nice. Exactly, exactly, exactly. And. So we have so much more that has come out since then in terms of research and practice that kind of the depth to it and for me, um, so I can, so that's why I use person centered / experiential, but I also, I limit that experiential bit because it is a rarer, much rarer element of my practice and actually it is something that I draw upon to very specific things and actually when I think about that aspect of my practice it is a little bit more, um, I feel like I'm going to go against everything I've just talked about but it's a little bit more around helping people with specific symptoms of something where they want [01:22:00] them to be, they want them to be reduced.

I'll just give an example. Um, phobias say for example, um, so I would never, if someone arrived at therapy and was like, I have a phobia, I would never just delve into it. Right. We're going to do this and we do this to kind of really alleviate those symptoms. I would have a per, a person centered approach, which would be to explore and talk to the person and, uh, uh, talk about their life and find out what's, what's going on for them.

And a lot of the time, that person centered process Will alleviate the, uh, symptoms of the phobia Quite often, not always, but often. But if after going through that process that symptoms are still there and the client is, I, I want to get rid of the, I want to get rid of these symptoms, there may be occasions when I feel like I would move into activities or, or [01:23:00] things that I would do with the client to help. alleviate. So for example, like exposure therapy, where we might kind of work towards, you know, facing the phobia or something like that. It's a crude example, but because that's what the client is asking for in terms of, um, help. Um, but that's very rare that I would do something like that because I feel like through the person centered process that I would usually get there anyway, but there are occasions when that doesn't happen.

Or maybe it would happen if I worked with the client in a classical person centered way for three years. But they need to get on a flight and go somewhere in two months time or something, you know, so I try might have more creative ways in terms of how I might work with that with that person. Um, but it's, but it's always firstly informed by.

The person centered approach. 

Helen Skelton: That's, that's exactly how and how I would describe my practice. And I just wanted to add a [01:24:00] couple of things that I thought of as you were speaking. Personally, I'm also very, very informed by existential thought. Um, that's a really important guide for me. And I think that there are, you know, at, at that end, understanding what freedom means, understanding what congruence and responsibility I think really within the stages of process, Rogers talks about existential living.

Um, so I think that there's a huge crossover between existential understanding and person centered understanding. So that doesn't conflict with me. It, it, again, it helps me deepen my person centered practice and helps me deepen my understanding of what it is to be human in the world. Um, but my actual being with people informs my empathy, really.

Um, I think my actual being with people still is led by the practice of those six conditions. And I was going to say, you know, my biggest [01:25:00] growth area really at the moment is, um, understanding somatic work better, understanding body work better. Um, I, I absolutely think that we are experienced whole body experiencing beings.

I think that an emphasis on thought. Is limited. I think that the idea, I actually think that the primacy of feeling is limited. I like the idea that things are sensations, you know, if I get a, if I get butterflies for some people that indicates terror and for some people that indicates. excitement. So I don't think that feelings are facts.

You know, I think it is how we experience things and the meaning we make from that. And I think that that again, deepens my empathic practice. And what I'm kind of developing at the moment is if I'm thinking empathically, it's like, what I'm trying to [01:26:00] understand is how, what is it like to be you in the world generally, and this moment, and that has to include Soma.

You know, to just be listening to the words that is ignoring the whole person. Um, so I'm finding it powerful with clients, but also responsive to developments post Rogers' work that I think he would have embraced. But all of it for me leads into empathic understanding. It doesn't challenge empathic understanding.

It's about deepening my empathic understanding to include much more of the person than perhaps we knew about in the 40s. Um, So again, it's like, that's why I can't move away from calling myself classical in that way because everything brings me back to how do I deepen this work, how do [01:27:00] I make it the biggest offering I can, the most generous offering, the most helpful, you know, I think, one of my favorite. quotes of Rogers is how can I be of most use to this person? Um, so all of those things kind of inform how I can be most used to this, uh, of most use to this person and

just doesn't really step outside those conditions. Yeah. You know, it doesn't step outside those conditions. 

Dr Peter Blundell: Because I think any aspects of practice where you might think, Oh, is that person centered? You can sit and reflect back, think about how does it or does it not meet those conditions that were set out at the beginning, you know.

Helen Skelton: I invite students, you know, there's always that thing from every course, you know, the person sent to police. And I know that that is responded to in a lot of the critiques currently. And, and [01:28:00] again, students or supervisees who come from court and it's like, it's but that's not person centered. And it's not my question is, is it empathic?

Or does it offer UPR? Is it congruent? You know, we, is it person centered? It's a sad question for me. You know, that's not the point. I am not trying to be person centered, if you like. I am trying to be these things, which, which is a person centeredness. But my question really is, is it empathic? Is it responsive?

Does it take somebody seriously? Are you getting in their way? Is it congruent? Is it in contact with them? Or are you avoiding or separated, disconnected from them? You know, those are the questions. 

Dr Peter Blundell: And there's two things that come up for me then. One, that's about the attitudes of the therapist. Seeing a transcript without hearing that client [01:29:00] work and saying that's directive or that's not empathic or that's, it's impossible because it's bound within the attitude of the therapist and how something is said and where it's coming from and the relationship with the, with the client that you've got.

Helen Skelton: Deep sensing. Deep empathic sensing. Yeah. 

Dr Peter Blundell: Actually, it's, it's okay with the knowledge and love and experience that I have within me. Can I capture and understand what it is that you're experiencing right now? Um, and come from that place.

Helen Skelton: And everything has to have frameworks, you know, there's very little that. that, well, I can't really think of anything that doesn't have a frame. You know, we have frameworks and rules and guidance, and we might break them in anything and experiment sometimes, but if I think, how am I helpful to somebody and I don't have any core values. about what I understand help to be and what I understand help to produce. [01:30:00] I'm floundering, you know, I'm in an enormous ocean with nothing to guide me and I'm less likely to be helpful. So I think I do need an understanding that of what help looks like. And what kind of help does what, you know, it's like, I can't bake a cake without understanding that flour and butter is going to be involved somewhere. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, I can't help people without an understanding of what that is. Um, and that is for me, that's kind of values and foundation and depth, rather than rigidity and, um, yeah, some kind of guide that we must not. divert from. It's the thing to help the thing provide, help the work provide creative, creativity safety. particularly and um, rigor in the best meaning of the word. 

Dr Peter Blundell: [01:31:00] Helen, we've been speaking for an hour and a half off and I feel like we could do the rest of the day on this. It feels like we've just summarized the past five years worth of conversations in this hour and hour and a half. Um, is there anything else that we haven't covered that you, that you wanted to mention?

Uh, I'm sure we can come back again, um, and have more conversations if we forget anything. 

Helen Skelton: Yeah, no, let's agree to do that. Yeah, my head is alive and buzzing with lots of great thoughts and ideas and to pick one isn't going to work at the moment. 

Dr Peter Blundell: Okay, we'll leave it there. Thank you everybody for listening.

I think this might have been split out into multiple episodes when you listen to it. Um, but what we do is we want to invite, um, responses to our conversation, things you agree, disagree with, maybe aspects of your own practice. So, yeah. You can tag us on social media or you can record your own discussion and send it into us.

I'll put the details [01:32:00] in the show notes. We are particularly interested in those people or practitioners from marginalised communities who may want to contribute to this discussion and talk about their own experiences of person centred theory and practice. So from this, you know, first episode of person centered conversations.

Helen, thank you so much. I hope we can do it again soon. And, um, yeah, let us know what you think. Thanks very much, everyone.