The Human Condition with Punam Farmah and Peter Blundell

In this episode of Person-Centred Conversations, Punam Farmah and Peter Blundell  @drpeterblundell discuss the human condition, post-humanism and person-centred practice. They refer to a paper by Gillian Proctor, the link to which is below. This wandering discussion connects and disconnects with various themes, and we encourage anyone listening who has a response to our discussion to record something of their own and submit it to the community to share.

Gillian Proctor (2024) - The illusion of separateness - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14779757.2025.2463585

Punam Farham's website - https://redmaplecounselling.com/

Peter Blundell's website - https://www.peterblundell.com/

Person-Centred Practice Community

Transcript

Dr Peter Blundell: 0:03

So, hello everybody who is joining us, either watching or listening on the podcast, whichever way you're accessing this, uh, content. Um, welcome to another person-centered conversation from the Person-centered Practice community. I think this might be like the fourth or fifth. Uh, one that we're gonna be, um, releasing. Well, we hope we'll release this. We haven't recorded it yet, so we don't, we dunno how it's gonna go or which direction it's, it's gonna go in. But I'm joined today, uh, by, uh, Punam, um, Punam welcome and, and thanks for joining me on this conversation. I'll, I'll ask you to introduce yourself in a moment. Um, what. I asked Punam what we could talk about for this, uh, particular conversation, what we were gonna kind of limit ourselves to, or, or try and discuss. Um, and Punam suggested talking about the human condition, um, which, you know, is a narrow, a narrow topic. That road topic to cover in a, in a, you know, 50 minute kind of podcast episode. Um, so that's what we're gonna try and discuss today. Um, and I'll, I'll, yeah, I'll introduce that topic in a minute, in a little bit more detail. Um, but Punam, do you wanna introduce yourself to anyone who, who doesn't know you or.

Punam Farnam: 1:11

That could be a fair amount of people. Um, you know, I'm fairly anonymous. Um, hello. Afternoon everybody, wherever you might be in the confine of this ever expanding counseling and psychotherapy universe. Uh, my name is Punam, Punam Farnam and I'm live and well kicking here in Middle Earth in Birmingham. Um. I'm a person centered counselor and I also teach counseling as well, so I, I don't know, in fairly Greek fashion, ancient Greek fashion, I tried to corrupt the youth for tomorrow and in counseling psychotherapy. That's a fairly interesting gig I think.

Dr Peter Blundell: 1:45

Um, thank you. So we just thought it'd be interesting to have, just have a conversation and just kind of see how each of us connects with this particular topic. So when you su suggested the human condition, I was, I was kind of thinking, oh my goodness. Like, what, what are we, what are we actually gonna talk about here? And so have you kind of Google it and look it up and kind of see how, what does, what does AI or Google kind of tell you that the human, human condition is, it's,

Punam Farnam: 2:09

the human condition has been, it's been plaguing. Poets, storytellers, scientists, counselors, since the dawn of time really, isn't it? And be it in literature, be it in movies, you know, everything is about the human condition.

Dr Peter Blundell: 2:23

Yeah.

Punam Farnam: 2:23

Um, and here we are, two therapists that over Zoom talking about the human condition. What does it mean to connect with one another? So you are hundreds of miles away, up north, Dr. Blundell. So, and yet you and I have connected. Um, and we connected many moons ago with a single tweet of all things. And you know, that human connection between you and I, we've met each other a handful of times and it's, it's always been, what do we mean in this universe, this ever expansive universe? What is it that our lives have that connects the both of us? The human condition more broadly speaking. I say it's been plaguing people for centuries, but I'm gonna misquote Shakespeare to you now, Dr. Blundell. And you know, what was that line from? Is it Hamlet to be or not to be? That is the question. To face these slings and arrows of an outrageous fortune and being as a person-centered human being. Counselor. For me, it's a philosophy. It's a way of life. So what does it mean to be, to live our, my life in a way that actualizes my potential? What is it to work with somebody? Be it as a clinician, as a counselor, there's probably people bristling at the very word clinician, or to be a tutor and to be in team potato. We all know about Rogerian and potatoes, or at least I hope we know about Rogerian and potatoes being kept in the basement to have the optimal conditions. The human condition is a state of being and we are here to actualize our part potential to moving with our telio and our eudemonia. Just throwing in a bit more Greek for you, what does that actually mean? And we can Google it figuratively or not until you know, the proverbial cows come home. But what does it mean to be human?

Dr Peter Blundell: 4:07

I love that you chose this as a, as a, as a topic. And then how I, how I've panicked in terms of how on earth are we going to cover human life, birth learning, emotion, aspiration, reason, morality, conflict, death, all of that. Biology, literature, philosophy, psychology, religion, you know, I got to, that's what, that's what Google tells me is kind of the part of the human condition. Um, and I suppose. It's interesting, we might talk a little bit about this later. As soon as we started to talk about the human condition, I kind of then started to think, well, hold on. There's lots of stuff going on now around about posthumanism and kind of what it means beyond being beyond the human. Um, so we might kind of interlink with some of that. Um, but I suppose, um, maybe because maybe people don't know you, can you say how you did connect with the person centered, um, approach in your own life and kind of what that meant to

Punam Farnam: 5:00

Rebellion growth, um, and re recalibration of life and the world as I knew it. Um, I mean, I come from the South Asian community. There's there's ways in being in the South Asian community, be it in conditions of worth cultural and collectivist cultures, rather individualistic culture. So there's a whole load of, you know, the lasagna, nevermind potatoes, a lasagna of different. Things. And for me, the rebellion was about who am I? Who could I be? Who do I have the potential to be? Um, and I don't know whether this fits. I spend half of my life pretending to be James Bond, taking risks, being adventurous, finding out what gives my life color and vu, what puts a smile on my face, and who can I be with authenticity? What is it that motivates me to do what I do? And so my calling to. The person centered approach. I know if I can, if I can say that my job is a vocation, be it as a teacher, be it as a counselor, it's like, oh, this is shiny, this is interesting. And you know what? I feel good doing this. I feel good reading about it. I'm a bookworm. So, you know, reading Carl Rogers' great big to of book has, you know, was really interesting and being trained of this is how you could look at life and it's about you. The very first proposition, if I get it right. The organism at center of their own phenomenological field. You are the center of your own universe. And I say this to my students, if someone tells you that you are not the center of your own universe, they are lying to you. So finding out who you are in this, you know, massive place of a universe, a person centered approach was a illumination, a torch going off and kind of illuminated the path that I found myself walking on.

Dr Peter Blundell: 6:46

I mean, it's such a, I hear, I feel like I hear that a lot when I talk to, uh, practitioners who are passionate about the person-centered approach, that it's something that they connected with. I was also really interested there, you were talking about,'cause one of the critiques around person-centered is about that individualistic, kind of westernized view of the self. But you were saying there that you come from like a collectivist culture. Um, and, and yet connect with this, and I was just wondering how those things kind of marry up for you. It's a really,

Punam Farnam: 7:10

really complex thing because it's like having a foot in two camps and it's cultural identity is a very complex thing, and historically, culturally, it's. Therapy as a, you know, Northern American, white, European discipline is at odds with what is in, you know, south Asian, far East, middle East, et cetera. And that I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I can get world peace with that But it's a case of, it's a reconciliation. For me, there's lots of different aspects of those cultures and identities that can go in together. And for some, understandably so. There is conflict, um, but it's also about flexibility and individuality. I can be one of something or none of something or everything that's up to me and how, you know, a bit like, what's it name, Piaget in terms of the, um, active scientist in the world around me. What, what chimes with me? What resonates with me? What can I absorb in my self concept that I agree with? Whereas there's other things that I don't need to assimilate and accommodate because they just don't fit so. For me, it's interesting, double helix in a kaleidoscope of experiences really, and choosing what makes, what gives my life a vu, how do I live this day?

Dr Peter Blundell: 8:24

And so there's an interconnections between your collectivist culture and, and the westernized idea of self if you like, and where you've found a place where blows. Different aspects of those things rest within you?

Punam Farnam: 8:36

Yeah. The different aspects, different configurations. I guess Mearns and Thorne might have a different view on it, but it's who am I to whom? Who am I to myself and to be authentic with it. And yes, there's gonna be people who go, hang on a minute, this isn't, you know, where you come from, or. How you do things as well. Surely it's up to me. I can define me, who I am, how I am, et cetera, et cetera. So for me, it's a interesting accommodation and equilibrium. It doesn't mean it's concrete, but it's quite flexible really.

Dr Peter Blundell: 9:06

What, um, one of the questions that we'd, we'd also had then was what aspects of the person-centered approach do you find challenging? Um,

Punam Farnam: 9:17

It's always that advice and non-directive thing of you should do this, you could do that. Have you tried this? Uh, and uh, I think I, I will always find that a difficult thing.

Dr Peter Blundell: 9:30

Mm.

Punam Farnam: 9:30

And it's a case of, you know, these are all your ducks, these are all your options. How do you want to rearrange them? Where do you see these duck fitting? So I think for me it's that sitting on the hands kind of. Not moving someone's figurative ducks.

Dr Peter Blundell: 9:46

I

Punam Farnam: 9:46

think, um, having autonomy and agency, what if your client doesn't, you know, doesn't know what autonomy means or feels, or, I dunno if there's a Punjabi word for autonomy and agency. There's certainly not one for counselor. Um, so I think that definitely the, the epidemic kind of distance between a clinician counselor. And in that person centered universe.

Dr Peter Blundell: 10:12

I'm just thinking about that, that complete different frame of reference of the, I was, I was speaking to some students about this the other day, you know, the privileged position that they, that they're in and they, or they don't always feel that, that they, that the students I teach on a master's program, they spend a year reflecting on their own process and how they interact with other people and all of those kind of things before they even get to see a client and. The privilege in that is that you already arrive with this. Um, uh, and some clients will have that, but already arrive with this, going through this whole process of exploration and expansion and reflexivity and terminology for some of the things that are going on within themselves. And then you sit in front of somebody and they're from a different culture and they don't have, as you say, they don't have a word for therapist, or they don't have a word for boundaries, or they don't have a word for whatever it might be, some of the emotions that they're feeling and actually trying to. Get into somebody else's frame of reference and, and, and not just stick in your own, you know? Mm-hmm. That's really challenging.

Punam Farnam: 11:10

And it's, are we, oh, what are we doing? Are we encountering someone in the same way that, you know, Rogers described it, of we've gotta step in somebody else's frame of reference whilst keeping a, a foot in our own. Um, and what does it mean to, to jump into somebody's frame of reference, as it were, whilst remaining in our own? It's a bit like a Venn diagram, I suppose she says, waving her hands around. Um, so you know, those, those two individuals. Who are creating that Venn diagram, they will separate, the encounter will be over, but we will take. Well, I hope we do. We will take something of each other and give something of each other in this same, you know, the encounter that you and I are having today. It's you and I with a Zoom screen. But beyond that, if anybody actually wants to hear Punam and her interesting Birmingham by accent, they will take something from this. They'll take something from you and I and we won't ever know unless they of course, you know, leave a comment underneath. It's, it's that in terms of what does it mean to be part of somebody else's universe, um. I think you mentioned in a paper before, um, Proctor one, and there was something about interconnectedness and connectedness and how as beings are, are we ne we are never in isolation, we're never just a, a molecule or atom. We're part of something else. Um, and I wonder,

Dr Peter Blundell: 12:30

I I just wanna add, I just wanna add in because I don't think I've, I don't think I've mentioned that we discussed that that's true before we started recording. And it was, uh. It's a paper by Gillian Proctor. Um, which, and the reason why it came up is because we were revisiting Carl Rogers works. We were kind of, uh, re rereading On Becoming A Person. And then we had a conversation about, well, yes, but what, what's it mean post humanity in terms of posthuman looking beyond the human? Um, and Gillian Proctor had written this, uh, paper. Recently around congruence through a post-human perspective. Um, so we can put the link to that in the show notes, but I'll just to give people a sense of kind of what she was talking about, I really can't summarize that paper in such a short period of time. But there was a quote that I thought might be quite interesting to read out, which was, um."The awareness of our interconnections and entanglement and entanglements is a choice for focus and changes both our organismic experience and self-concepts, concepts. It matters how we experience and understand ourselves in relation to the universe. I am arguing that how we choose to focus on increasing our congruence is an ethical choice. With political implications, we can choose to remain inside ourselves as a separate organism and reinforce our sense of separation, or we can choose to focus on how we are interconnected and elaborate and magnify those experiences of

Punam Farnam: 13:58

Interesting words. Hey,

Dr Peter Blundell: 14:00

I mean, there's so much in that, but I suppose I feel like what Gillian Proctor was talking about there is that opening out to the other, but also. To the world around us as well. And not just that congruence within ourselves, but also the congruence with which we live our lives with the rest of the world and humanity and everything else that goes along with that.

Punam Farnam: 14:20

I was thinking about this. This is, this is as related, it's not a, you know, tangent. This is related. And I was thinking, you know how, obviously we spoke beforehand and I was thinking, you know what, ask Peter about hermits. Here we are talking about the human condition and connection. And you know, with what, what you just said about Proctor, what about hermits? What is their sense of being? And you know, you get what they ecclesiastic hermits or the hermits who usually have a, a, a religious, you know, aspect of their life. And they are hermits, they seclude themselves. And I'm just wondering, I was fascinated as, as you, you know, I just sat there eating your lunch thinking, what about permits and connection and frame of reference?

Dr Peter Blundell: 15:01

Does that make Well, I mean that's, that, that, no, that doesn't make sense. I, I, it's made me think about. Isolation and not being connected to other people, and how that happens in lots of different ways. Not, not just necessarily people who maybe choose, choose that or don't choose that. Mm. Um, and what, yeah, what do, what, what does that mean for people in terms of feeling seen, listened to, heard, connected to other people? Um, um, it's an interest. That's an

Punam Farnam: 15:30

You know what? We are five years away from the anniversary of a certain pandemic, which officially isn't over yet, and human connection, loneliness, the human condition. It was, it was a fascinating time and it still is. We still, we've still got the ripples of everything, of not being able to go out to be socially distanced. A hug, Peter, I dunno about you, but hugs during that time were effectively illegal. And, you know, human beings, you know, no person is an island. To slightly alter the quote, it's human connection is just, it's fascinating.

Dr Peter Blundell: 16:10

And I suppose that's about, well it's about therapy in general actually, but I'm thinking about the person centered approach is that basic, you could be isolated on your own and you could do a lot of introspection, um, potentially, and how that is different from. An exploration through relationship with, with somebody else. Mm-hmm. Um, and how, um, actually how significant, yeah, how significantly different that can be to explore aspects of yourself with another human being, um,

Punam Farnam: 16:42

and therapists as mirrors, as illuminators, to have someone walk with you with that torch. Illuminating. What if you are the one holding the torch all the time? There's only a certain amount of feedback or reflection you can do. I mean, how many of us as students, a therapists have looked at the JIHARI window, looked at the results and went, oh, well that didn't possibly be true. And eventually finding oh hang on. Maybe I do need to take on a bit more feedback and you know, maybe I'm not as open as I thought I was. It's, it is an interesting, fascinating kind of, you know, spectra of arguments and ideologies, isn't it? It's a case of, are we. Alone, are we not? What does it mean to be in relationship? You used that word there in terms of what does it mean? How do we define it? How do we encounter people? What are we looking for for a relationship? You know, you have that cliche takes two to tango, but what if you just wanna do a bit of, you know, river dance by yourself? It's if a kind of, what does it mean from a person-centered perspective? What am I doing? Am I doing it alone? Who am I doing it with? That encounter between a client, a clinician, human beings, what is going on in a transpersonal magic kind of way that allows it to happen. Um, you speak about, you know, the post-human world, and I, I won't lie to you, Peter, it reminds me a little bit of Terminator. That really does with AI and you know, with lots of C-B-T-C-B-T in particular therapies that are bot based. It's, it's, it's quite scary really. I mean, imagine you and I sat in front of a Android therapist, what would that be like? And,

Dr Peter Blundell: 18:31

and I, I absolutely get that. And there is, there is definitely part of that that, um, terrifies me because I'm like, actually that's. Where's the human connection in that? And then there is also part of it where I'm feel like, um, do I have a prejudice against AI technology and AI therapists And, um. Have seen and witnessed people use AI in creative ways to help their own process and explore aspects of themselves. Um, and that does not mean I'm like, supportive of, of, of AI and, and everything that it, that it's gonna do. Um, but maybe it does change. Mm-hmm. The notion of what it means to connect with another being.

Punam Farnam: 19:22

Mm-hmm. And we are talking about humans. What about horses or other farm yards of animals? It's a case of, you know, we, we, what is being, is it purely human? Is it something else?

Dr Peter Blundell: 19:35

And maybe that's also maybe something I think that posthumanism. Is talking about and kind of what Gillian Proctor's talking about in that article in terms of when we're doing person centered therapy and obviously the focus is on, on the person, on the client in what's happening in that relationship, but sometimes maybe could that make us blinkered to other aspects of being, um mm-hmm. That aren't just about the person. Mm-hmm. Um, and expanding out to something that's maybe more, um, not more, um. Greater connection with. Mm-hmm. More than just relationships. I don't wanna say more than I want, wanna, it's a different way maybe.

Punam Farnam: 20:17

Yeah. And I think, what is it? How do we label that? How do we identify something that our beautiful human brain hasn't quite computed yet? And AI is interesting'cause it learns from humans. So it's by virtue of what it is, it is limited by human imagination. So, you know, it could, it could be everything and

Dr Peter Blundell: 20:38

anything and, and also can't function necessarily without it.

Punam Farnam: 20:41

Absolutely. Probably. Well

Dr Peter Blundell: 20:42

without, well it can, I suppose it can actually function now, but I suppose the, what you're feeding into it.

Punam Farnam: 20:47

Yeah.

Dr Peter Blundell: 20:47

Um,

Punam Farnam: 20:50

And what purpose does it serve?

Dr Peter Blundell: 20:53

I feel like you're giving me more questions than you are. I, I had all

Punam Farnam: 20:58

the answers that surely as a therapist, I'm not meant to give you all the answers. Surely that is part of the deal, right? I help you get the questions and then we answer them together.

Dr Peter Blundell: 21:09

Um, one of the things we also did, did was, I know we got the different parts of it, but we both kind of reread Rogers On Becoming A Person.

Punam Farnam: 21:18

It's a big book. You could use that as a door stop if you really wanted to.

Dr Peter Blundell: 21:22

It's, it is a big book, but it's like I, we were talking about before we came on that we'd like, it's nice to revisit, um, some of the texts, some of the kind of work of Rogers even though we've kind of read them before and kind of, um, look at them afresh, I suppose. Um, one of the things I, um, noticed or was talking about, and I, I was laughing'cause you were asking so many questions here. Um, and. For me, that was a, like an indication of like, we're in this space of, we don't know, we're, we're, we're questioning, we're querying and, and kind of what it, what it's all about. Um, and one of the things that I was reading in Rogers is sometimes it's critiqued Roger's theory for being very kind of static and, um, it doesn't shift and it's kind of like, um, not expansive and just reading in some of, uh, Roger's work, one of the quotes that I was looking at was that. Um, and he, he writes this, I am sure that I do not see it cl clearly or completely since I keep changing my comprehension and understanding of it. I hope you'll accept it's a current and tentative picture, not something final. Um, and that's when he was talking about the process of therapy and kind of, and kind of what happens. And I just, I thought it was interesting to read that and kind of think actually. Rogers was not kind of like, this is, this is the final thing and this, this is how we need to view the world. Actually, it was a, it was an ongoing formulation, an idea about what might be going the therapy

Punam Farnam: 22:52

I think as humans, humans, we are always evolving and he, you know, Rogers from, in my mind at least, came from. Hang on a minute, and agnosticism of a kind. I don't know this, I don't know that. What do I know and what position am I in? It's data-driven in a, in a soft, empirical kind of way, but I think it's lovely. He says, here's an idea. It's not the fully baked one, but you know, have a crack at it and see what happens. It's a bit like you could have, here's a recipe for Victoria Sponge ever fixed. Everybody changes Victoria Sponge

Dr Peter Blundell: 23:24

and, and isn't the cake always different? No matter who makes it always,

Punam Farnam: 23:27

always delicious?

Dr Peter Blundell: 23:28

Yeah. Well, so if you,

Punam Farnam: 23:30

eh, mostly,

Dr Peter Blundell: 23:31

mostly, mostly,

Punam Farnam: 23:32

mostly if you

Dr Peter Blundell: 23:33

like Victorious Sponge,

Punam Farnam: 23:34

if you like that. Oh, the cakes are available. I quite like Black Forest gateux myself. Um, but I think that's a really lovely, it's not a cop out. I won't say that. It's, it's a, this is ever evolving nature of human beings and we haven't got to a point yet. Perfectionism. Is that even possible? Is it an interject? Who knows? But this is what, it's a very moment. It's a very phenomenological, this is what I've got, take it or leave it kind of thing. Is that vulnerable kind of offering? And I guess, yeah, I understand that. You know, there's a criticism to be made of, it's not fixed. We can't test it, it's not finite. What do you want me to do with this thing? And I think that then kind of bypasses the human condition, the human experience of the here and now that he talks about. So I think that's a, that's a really lovely reflection actually. you know, thinking a person centred cake, Peter.

Dr Peter Blundell: 24:31

Person centered. Kate, what would that look like? I'm not sure. Post human cake

Punam Farnam: 24:37

answers on a postcard, please. There are no prizes.

Dr Peter Blundell: 24:41

Um, how do you, how do you think you will keep a connection with the person centered approach, like going forward into the future? Like, how do you maintain, sustain, I don't know, they're the right words, but, um, a connection to it.

Punam Farnam: 25:00

Reading the works, meeting with you fellow practitioners. I mean, we're talking here as two members of the community and I think that's really important. Connection and interaction and what do we bring to each other's lives? Um, and what do we do with it? And I think that's really important that fraternity. And we have differences. We have so much around us that is unique. One person has a different view to another. You and I both teach in different ways and two different students, and I think it's really important that we are a community and hopefully that's what I would take from it. And I learned from everyone that I meet, I learned from you a great deal. And I think that's integral to, for me, that connection, that solidarity and fraternity.

Dr Peter Blundell: 25:51

It's really interesting for me to have those conversations like with you and other person centered practitioners and really, it, it, it keeps me inspired around the approach and also like these challenges that I get from people in terms of. Maybe I think I, I've become a bit blinkered in terms of how I'm seeing the person-centered approach and, and having that kind of, um, discussion and challenge. And when you feel like, not that you're coming from the same, you, you're coming from a passion for the person-centered approach, but not necessarily, um. There's enough shared, something enough shared there to be able to have a discussion about it and to have like a productive, productive, I don't like that word, but a passionate discussion about it. Yeah. Um, and see where those differences might line. And that constantly helps me clarify, oh yeah. What is it I'm doing here? Like, am I thinking about the, this concept in the right way?

Punam Farnam: 26:45

Mm-hmm. I think the passion is really important. It's, and I think you asked me this right at the beginning, what drew me in? What keeps it alive?

Dr Peter Blundell: 26:53

For

Punam Farnam: 26:54

me, and one of the many things that keeps it alive is when students get a concept or apply it or use it in their work, and it's, it's kind of a seed has been sewn and it's cultivated. It says net six, necessary sufficient conditions. And when that happens, that reminds me of why this approach exists, what I get out of it, how it has a potential to to change, to impact. Really,

Dr Peter Blundell: 27:24

I love those moments. I feel like, uh, being a, a lecturer or a, you know, a facilitator, however you want to kind of describe that kind of teaching approach, I feel like I, I feel like it's a privilege being a therapist. I feel like it's a privilege being a person centered therapist, but I also feel it's a privilege being a person centered teacher or, or facilitator because I feel like. It helps me feel, connect, connected to the approach, and I feel like I'm constantly learning from others' experience. Mm-hmm. Um, as they understand critique, query, ask questions. Take risks, um, in their own practice. It's kind of, it's inspiring to be around that a lot of the time

Punam Farnam: 28:07

and that risk is really important. Somewhere in that book of his, he does talk about risk and the capacity to reach out, the capacity to go beyond our comfort zone. And I think many, many moons ago, perhaps in my early training, I watched, um, a TED Talk by Brene Brown. To dare greatly, and you know, we can debate how much we think Brene Brown is person centered, but to put oneself out on a limb, we do that all the time as clinicians, as students, to, to grasp a net. That feels so powerful and so strong as a, a way of being. There's a risk in there to be open, to be aware, and to dare greatly knowing that it could all fall down. But you don't know that unless you try it

Dr Peter Blundell: 29:02

and how Yeah. How difficult that can be to mm-hmm. To do that from a, from a therapist's point of view, but for also from a client's as well.

Punam Farnam: 29:14

And it's a difficult thing. I mean, as therapists, we are there, we are extending an olive branch, as it were. And a client or even a student making their tentative journeys into counseling is like therapy, be it to go to the class, be it to, to Google the therapist. It, there's a, an outreach there of that, you know, I'm here, I am lost, I'm incongruent, I have distress, and something has to change. I cannot do this alone though. Having that openness, that risk. It is what I think is a part of that actualizing tendency that we have as human beings really.

Dr Peter Blundell: 29:54

Is there a particular aspect of person centered theory or practice particularly connect with?

Punam Farnam: 30:03

Let me see. The Actualizing Protect is definitely part of it. Mm-hmm. And the fully functioning, what does that actually mean? It means different things to different people. And I'm actually teaching this next week actually, so it kind of refreshes my mind of what does it mean, and part of the definition is creativity and openness to new experie. And I think it's that. It's a case of what could be, could be. We don't know it until we tried it. And that experimental kind of, let's have a look what helps, what contributes

Dr Peter Blundell: 30:38

and, that openness, I don't know how I'm gonna experience this. It's a new experience and my experience of that, that openness to this could go any which way.

Punam Farnam: 30:47

Mm-hmm. And I won't know. I won't know what's acceptable to me. What is And I'll be able to build my sense of self, my universe from this it's curiosity. Hypothesis testing of which ways it gonna go, you know?

Dr Peter Blundell: 31:06

It's one of the reasons why, and I think I've spoken about this in a, another conversation, my difficulty with, uh, personal development and encounter groups because the excitement of, oh, this, I don't know where this could go and I dunno how I'm going to experience it. And also the dread, I dunno where this is gonna go, but I dunno how I'm gonna experience it. Yeah.

Punam Farnam: 31:30

And how often do we say to our, you know, clients or even our students, you don't have to know where it's gonna go. And why is that important to you? Do you have an agenda here? What do you want as an outcome? And Yeah, I, I think I agree with you actually. PD groups and Encounter groups. I, to this day, I still find them interesting and like even talking about them that here they make me feel rather vulnerable, you know?

Dr Peter Blundell: 31:58

Yeah. I, I, that is my experience of, um. Personal development and encounter groups as well. And also I've had some amazing, uh, moments of connection and, um, realization as part of, as part of those, groups. Um, and also again, I was reading, uh, Rogers' chapter on that idea of processing. He was talking about. The more people are exposed to kind of those conditions, that the person becomes more content to be a process rather than a product. And I feel like the more encounter groups that I go to, the more I feel that, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. The more I can feel that fluidity of process and actually if I haven't been in one or attended one for a while or whatever, and I can see that it, that, that, yeah. It helps me with that part of my process to become more of a process.

Punam Farnam: 32:54

So it meet some kind of internal drive. Yeah. It kind of, it it kind of fills up that cup Yeah. Of whatever it might be Yeah. That you want or need. And we don't have to have words for it. We don't. It has to, it can be whatever it is within you. It's a stimulus response. They ha it meets something within you.

Dr Peter Blundell: 33:13

And that it, it was interesting there when you were saying, oh, don't always have. I don't need to have words for it necessarily. And I think one of the conversations I had with Helen was actually trying to describe to other people, like, your passion for the person centered approach or your connection to it, or your experience of it, or the embodiedness of it, um, can actually be really, really, really difficult because if you haven't experienced it, um, actually it can appear, um. Odd, unusual, weird, or, or whatever to other people.

Punam Farnam: 33:50

It can be a bit of a, it can be, sorry to interrupt you. No, it's okay. It can, it can feel like a unicorn. Mm-hmm. You know what you're describing and you know what's happened, but you still end up with this. Did you really say that kind of thing.

Dr Peter Blundell: 34:03

And other people, and other people don't really believe it exists.

Punam Farnam: 34:08

It's, you know, this is one of the many things, but I'm teaching it. I can. And you know, I said, I'm teaching next week. It's that phenomenological experience of being there and looking at it and delivering it. And it goes from being, this is gonna sound, this is gonna sound really pompous and I apologize. It, it goes from being Roger's theory to Punam's way of this is what I do for a life and a living. Punam's way of being? The way of being. And you know, I. I pace up and down my room, Peter, I have a clicker, so I often teach from different places in the room. I, I wave my hands around.

Dr Peter Blundell: 34:45

I can imagine you teaching.

Punam Farnam: 34:47

Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's interesting. Um, I wouldn't take that as a compliment. That's alright. It's, it's, it's a case of. But you can see it. You're a person, centered person yourself. So it goes, you know, we can't explain this unicorn, but you've just said, I can imagine it.

Dr Peter Blundell: 35:03

Yeah.

Punam Farnam: 35:03

So it, it's that, and I can stand there like, this is what I do, this is how I do it. This's not a magic trick, but it feels magic and, and let's that illumination again with student going, oh, I get this and I get that. So it is, it's a unicorn. I think it's a very interesting unicorn. does exist. It's not magical kind of creature. It, it does exist.

Dr Peter Blundell: 35:26

Um, I feel like I was thinking about the conversation that we've had and I'm wondering if it will make sense to people because I feel like we've gone up, gone so many different directions, but also it is a. It is a person centered conversation, and I feel like this is the type of conversation I have with lots of different people. Not exactly this conversation, but that kind of passion for the approach and kind of what it, what it means. I'm wondering, that feels like a kind of a nice point to kind of end on. Um, unless there's anything else that we haven't covered that you felt like you, I feel like we've covered everything and nothing to say and nothing in between.

Punam Farnam: 36:11

There you go. That's the human condition. Yeah. The vast expansiveness of it.

Dr Peter Blundell: 36:15

Yeah. Um, you know, it's been absolutely fantastic. Um, and hopefully, um, there will be some other people who kind of wanna have these person-centered conversations. So if you're interested, um, send us an email and we'll send you details and if you wanna react, respond to kind of our conversation or have one of your own then, and you could let us know. Um, so from everyone here at the Person Centered Practice Community, thank you very much and we'll see you soon. Bye.