Alyssa: [00:00:00] You're listening to another episode of the conquering workflows and systems for bookkeepers and accountants podcast. With your host here. Alyssa Lang. And this week we're actually hearing from Jennifer Kirkman over at untamed creative, who, by the way, used to be one of my lovely employees. Who's now spread her wings and started her own business. Really focusing on creative copy and making sure to like really break those changes on the normal way that people are marketing or the way that they're saying things in their copy. Maybe that's their website, social media, whatever that looks like. So it's been such an honor to be able to interview here, here in this episode. And she's got a lot of great tips to share. And so I wanted to share, before we dive into the episode, what you can expect from this episode.
Alyssa: So a couple of different things that we talked about is how to really determine content ideas based off serving your clients. So she actually discusses some of the options on how to gather data and information and surveying your clients to ultimately be able to get ideas for what to write or ideas for content in general.
Alyssa: We also talk a lot in [00:01:00] dive into AI. So I know a lot of people have questions about using AI. So it's artificial intelligence. To be able to write copy for you. So she's got a lot of great tips, feedback, ways to leverage it and things that you should be avoiding when it comes to AI. And when to use AI versus actually bringing someone into work with you.
Alyssa: So we talked about, like I said, serving your clients, which is going to be amazing, especially for those who are process oriented. Like I am, I think it's going to be a great way to really see what people actually want to learn from you. So Jen's got a lot of great things to be sharing here. We talk about a lot of different tech that's use and also ways to work with her.
Alyssa: She's an incredible copywriter. She copyrights for both Workflow Queen and she also does it for my firm, Magnetic Bookkeeping and Consulting. So, I am so excited and I can't wait for you to hear this episode.
[00:02:00]
Alyssa: Hey everyone, and welcome to yet another episode of the Conquering Workflows and Systems for bookkeepers an accountant's podcast with your host here, Alyssa Lang, the Workflow Queen. I am so excited, as I probably say, at every beginning of every episode, whenever I'm about to introduce a lovely guest, but I'm actually really pumped because [00:03:00] this person, not only do I get to continuously work with on a contracted basis, but also someone who used to be one of my employees, and it's just so incredible to see her growth in the things that she's done. As a business owner herself, and so I am so excited. Jen, thank you so much for joining us today, and please feel free to introduce yourself, your business, and who you are.
Jennifer: Hello and hi. And I am so excited as well to be here. And it's just like, who would've thought we'd be in this, podcast episode together? So, I'm so excited. I am Jennifer. I'm the owner of Untamed Creative, and I'm a copywriter for business owners pretty much who wanna create an unforgettable brand voice that feels authentic to them. Instead of sounding like a generic nothing burger. I also look terrible in stripes. Don't even, don't even try , and and, I always pretend I know how to do stuff like crochet. And I will always say yes to ordering a pizza. [00:04:00] I cannot wait to hear what we un uncover in this episode.
Alyssa: It's gonna be great. I'm so excited. It's so funny cuz I actually really enjoy crocheting and like the only thing I can really do with it is like a simple, like, I don't even know what they call it, but like a simple blanket. And I've been crocheting a really soft one recently, but I pretend like I know what I'm doing, but half the time I'm pretty sure I missed the loops.
Jennifer: I mean I, my grandma tried to teach me several times and I kept making triangles. I was like, I, this isn't, this isn't for me, but hey, I can crochet on mean triangle. So, . Um, that's something
Alyssa: Grandma did good somewhere,
Jennifer: right? Sorry, grandma, I'm trying.
Alyssa: Well, I'm super excited for you to be here. Thank you so much. And , like you said, like who would've thought, like, this is where we would be like, I think What, how long has it been since you worked? Is it a year ago?
Jennifer: Two,
Alyssa: Two? Oh, shoot!
Jennifer: I started, I started, um, in 2021 in like late February with [00:05:00] you. And then, and then I've been, doing my own thing for about a year now. Um,
Alyssa: oh my God.
Jennifer: Oh my gosh. I think February 3rd is my anniversary. So anyway, so
Alyssa: that's in like two days as, as we're recording it.
Jennifer: It's pretty wild. Like, I can't, I can't believe we've been working together for two years already. Like what is happening?
Alyssa: It's so crazy. So for a little bit of background, for anybody who's kinda listening, so I run Workflow Queen over here where we help bookkeepers and accountants.
Alyssa: So Jen was originally brought on as, I think when we hired you as an employee, it was just an assistant, correct?
Jennifer: I was like gonna do community support and like assistant type work.
Alyssa: So it's so interesting because in a part of our onboarding for any new employees is we create this like lovely little almost like this document that asks 'em about themselves. Like what buttons to press, like what not to press. Like essentially like how to really get the best out of every person that you work with [00:06:00] and ask them things like favorite drinks, like your favorite snacks, like which we use that stuff for, like when we wanna send them gifts and stuff.
Alyssa: Well, anyways, Jen wrote out her, so it was a part of like our onboarding process. Jen filled it out and I was like, This sounds like a story. And I was like, Jen, this is incredible writing. Wasn't that how it like came up? And I was like at the time was looking to hire an in-house copywriter. Like I was planning to hire an employee, but this was like months after you were working with us. And then all of a sudden I was just like, oh my God. Like, do you wanna do some stuff? And then you started with like couple posts. Was that how it worked? I can't even remember. It's been so long.
Jennifer: I mean, I think I just was. I did a blog or two, and then we were like, okay, this is working out well. And then it just kind of carried on from there. And then we were doing, you know, launching your, workflows in a weekend. We did, you know, sales pages and emails and stuff like that for all of that stuff. And it just kind of spirals from there.
Jennifer: And it was like so weird for me because I've always [00:07:00] loved that skill that I've had and I just never, ever thought somebody would like pay me for it, you know? And so you opened me up to a whole, a whole new world, you know? So Thank you.
Alyssa: It's cheesey but it's great. No, but it's awesome though. Sometimes it's, I mean, everybody doesn't know their potential until someone gives 'em the opportunity to see it. Like, you know what I mean? And I think that sometimes it's just, and I'm not saying that's technically me, but you've always had this skillset, like you said, it's just sometimes just knowing that it's there and.
Alyssa: I'm happy. I'm, I'm super pumped. Not only by the way, guys, so not only does she do still do the copy for all of our blogs, all of our like Facebook posts, pretty much like emails, everything. She also does all the copy for Magnetic Bookkeeping Consulting, which is my firm. And so you do the emails for that?
Alyssa: We are gonna. By the way, Jen, I was gonna ask you, we wanna roll out blogs pretty soon here. So , so she will be eventually doing blogs as well, but right now we started out with emails with Magnetic and we [00:08:00] just wrapped up literally today an amazing like marketing campaign that I'm doing for Magnetic to attract people.
Alyssa: and essentially she wrote the landing page for like, it's an opportunity for business owners to get a free diagnostic review. So she, you helped me with the landing page, the thank you page, and then the ad copy cuz we are gonna be running ads, to that lovely landing page. So Jen has also worked, I'm, I believe you actually worked with other bookkeepers and accountants as well, right, since then?
Jennifer: I've written, gosh, I can't, I don't remember a handful of websites for other bookkeepers that found me through your community and, some of 'em I've met in real life because of the, uh, retreat and so it's been so fun. Like , it's been so funny because who again, who would've thought I would be writing about you know, reconciliation and things like that. But I, I found you through Bookkeeper Launch and so, because I [00:09:00] went through it, and then now I'm writing about bookkeeping and accounting and things, and it's just like, what, what's hap-- what is life? So so it's very, very interesting, to be able to write for this world because it's just so, I think it's one that people expect to be a snooze fest. And then
Alyssa: yes.
Jennifer: When I get clients in the bookkeeping industry, they're like, I don't wanna be that. I don't, I don't want to be boring. I don't wanna be generic. And I definitely don't want people's eyes to glaze over when I tell them what I do. So, that's something that I've been able to, I, I think that's something I've been able to, support people in this industry with, is, Letting them use their actual voice. And, and I think you're a really big, um, advocate for that too. And like, I think that you inspire people in your community to do the same because you don't have [00:10:00] the,
Alyssa: Like the regular approach.
Jennifer: Vanilla-- like the vanilla approach to it, because that just wouldn't be you anyway. So it just, that wouldn't make any sense. And not to say that, you know, having a more serious voice or tone is a bad thing because there is, an audience
Alyssa: appropriate time
Jennifer: well to that. Well and there's there's also a ti a time and place to be more , serious. But I, I think. I'm not saying like everybody has to be, you know, jumping off the walls, in their brand voice, in their copy. But if that is you, then yeah, it should be, right. Like if that is who you are in real life, then I highly encourage people to just show up the way they are. Even if it's for their business, even if it's for their website, whatever it is.
Alyssa: Yeah I definitely agree. I mean, you already know that about me where I'm very like big about like I've got tattoos, red hair, I've got different type of approach, especially to this industry. A very serious industry, like you said, it is no joke what we do. [00:11:00] It is not a joke to mess up loans or mess up journal entries like affect somebody's taxes or the money that they pay out or the health of their business. Like that is not a joke in any capacity. But there are ways to be able to get the message across to people in a way that doesn't sound like, look at me, suit and tie. Like, and like I, like you said. It's, that's not that it, that's wrong. It's just that's how it's been done for so many years and now the new generation is coming where it's like personality is actually a really, really big thing. And I think it's something that a lot of people forget about.
Jennifer:
Jennifer: And I think one, one of the reasons that I became so strongly passionate about, helping people in this specific way is like I am sick of seeing people diminish themselves or make themselves small because they're afraid of like, I don't know, turning away a client, you know, because they're like, oh, you, you have, I don't know, like you say, badass on your, on your [00:12:00] website.
Jennifer: you know, and so I feel so so strongly about that, about not, and especially, especially women, but like, I feel passionate about the fact that we don't need to shrink ourselves down for something that we believe in. That's what I hope to bring, uh, to people.
Alyssa: I definitely can agree. I mean, ultimately at the end of the day, like you're, I remember when I first started, like I do know that there's a lot of people who are listening to this episode who are maybe newbies or people who are also well seasoned. When I was a newbie, I tried to fit in that same bucket. I wanted to wear like long sleep. I would cover my tattoos during like, cause I used to do some in-person appointments for taxes when I did taxes many, many moons ago. and. , I tried to hide myself and I would always think like, oh my God, like people are gonna judge me and think I'm this bad person or not.
Alyssa: Take me serious and don't get me wrong, I've had once I finally let myself free and kind of broke those chains of like what everybody says I need to do, and I started to be myself and show up [00:13:00] authentically, I actually attracted the right people. But don't get me wrong, I've had had people on like Facebook ads literally be like, "how can you take her serious? She has tattoos!" I'm like, well, thank you for judging me. Like that's just not good. And two, it's like, that's okay. I'm just gonna block you and I hope you never, ever interact with me in the sense of like, you don't deserve to be surrounded by the awesomeness that I'm gonna create with the community that I've created. And I think that that's something that you've helped.
Alyssa: It's so funny cuz I was just on a call yesterday with Melissa Hoan, which I know you know who that is. And, uh, me and her were on this call together yesterday, and she was going through that page that you did. So the copy, right? So this is after I built it out on the landing page for Magnetic, and she reads through and she was like, literally every word that I read, I read it in your voice. And so if somebody, by the way guys, Jen is the one who wrote it, but she understands my voice. One, Jen worked so closely with me that like she knows how I speak, the lingo I use, and stuff like that. [00:14:00] If your copywriter needs to get it so down that someone else can literally read it in your same voice and so props to you Jen, for like just crushing that
Jennifer: Thank you. Yes. I feel like I am you sometimes
Alyssa: It's like I'm channeling my inner Alyssa Lang
Jennifer: Yes, I do believe we are one at times and that's what is so fun about working with somebody long term is I become like a mind reader. and it's really, it, I mean, it makes my job, more streamlined too because it's just like, oh, I know exactly how you'd respond to the, you know, and, um, but I also think that our process too is helpful because, You know, for your emails and blogs and things like that, our process is that you deliver a loom video of you just explaining, in your own words.
Alyssa: Aka blabbing. Me blabbing about things. I get distracted really easy on Loom video.
Jennifer: Well, it's [00:15:00] usually, it's usually just Harley like eating something he's not supposed to eat. But like, you know, that really helps because it is like we're having a conversation. And so I pretty much just carry that conversation on in the form of, you know, whatever it is I'm writing. And so that is really a beautiful way to like, help translate what you wanna say into what we're gonna put out. So I really like the way that we, have it set up.
Alyssa: Yeah, definitely. I agree. It's so funny cuz this is gonna spin off into so many different directions, but I feel like so many ideas are just coming to my mind. I can't even like, help myself. One thing that you were talking about is the Loom videos and so for some people, they're not gonna be able to really hire someone like you right off the bat because budget wise, and let's be real, like that is a real thing. We have to honor that and respect it. so people who might. A little bit newer into the industry, maybe they just don't have the budget yet to hire, hire an outsource. Which by the way guys, [00:16:00] it is like one of my favorite things to outsource is literally my social media management, which is done by someone different. And then we have Jen who does all the writing and all the copy. And because for me it's. I think it's a waste of time in my head. Like for me to do it , like I don't wanna do it.
Jennifer: It's easy to overthink if you're doing it yourself, it's easy to overthink it.
Alyssa: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I can agree. So for anybody who is more on the brand new stage, do you recommend them maybe filming themselves, just talking over Loom versus like trying to stare at like a blank page and maybe just like listen to themselves when they like are just trying to get something out there. Or maybe they're just dipping their toes into social media. Would that be a good recommendation for somebody?
Jennifer: I think you don't necessarily need to, do a loom if there's nothing to sh you know, cause it's really a screen share thing. So if you wanna do like voice notes on your, phone or whatever, I think that for some people talking it out is really helpful. [00:17:00] But like, before you do anything, I think the best thing to do is understand what your ideal customers like want to hear. So, I have three things you can write down kind of get the ideas flowing, but basically like, okay, take, set yourself a timer for 15 minutes and just write as many things as you can in these three categories. So I want you to write down everything that your customers, like your ideal clients, write down everything that they fear in one category.
Jennifer: Like what, what are they worried about? You know, daily life. what do they hate? . Like, what are things that piss them off about their business or about, you know, whatever it is. And then what do they want? Like not just surface level wants, like what do they truly desire? What do they really, really, aspire to? Okay. Those three categories are really good. And then [00:18:00] write down as many as you can, 15 minutes and then stop. Then look at that list and each and every one can be, something you talk about in an email. It could be, or, or Instagram. I'm just thinking email cause that's what we were talking about, but it could be any kind of content. and, just start talking about it, you know, and a lot of people, Have, you know, a Voice note app on their phone, or you could vox yourself if you use Voxer you know? Something like that where, or of course if Loom makes sense for you, yes. Do that.
Jennifer: but I, I think that people benefit a lot from talking it out. You get a lot more, like fluidity when you're talking , even it comes to yourself or maybe, you know, maybe. Get on a Zoom with your friend and just be like, hello. I'm gonna tell you about stuff that you don't care about, but just pretend you do, you know, and just like, just talk it out. Record the, call and you can transcribe it too if you want, if you wanna go that far. But I like, [00:19:00] my process is listening to, a video from a client. So we'll use you, for example, I listen to your video and I just write bullet notes down. And then from. . I just spin it into a, a story that people wanna read and so that to me makes the most sense listening and taking down notes, like you're in, you know, high school or whatever. And just helps to, , retain it. For me, going through a transcription is so,
Alyssa: it's kind of hard. It's like very monotoned.
Jennifer: It's, it's the opposite of hands-on. Like, you know, it's just, it's very, it's very, You don't feel connected to a transcription for me. So I, that's why I like to hand write my notes, which don't worry. Sustainability, I have like a reusable notebook. But anyways, it's, it's the best way for me to feel like I am, embodying that story, whatever the topic is. Okay.
Jennifer: So that's what I would do [00:20:00] and I would absolutely recommend building a list and emailing your people. And then I think writing those emails yourself when you're new is an amazing way to learn your, your voice. Like what, what do you want to sound like and what do you, like what is your. Reader connect with, cuz people will hit reply and they'll be like, thank you so much for saying this, or, you know, this was so helpful, or whatever it is. And then you can see, okay, people are responding to this. And then when you are ready to pass that off, I mean it, you already understand what you want to get out of it and what it should look and feel like. I think
Alyssa: and the trends almost,
Jennifer: it's easy-- Yeah! and you have, data to have a baseline of like, okay, this is what I'm used to. So, this is where you would like to at least start from and then hopefully grow, uh, once you outsource. So, [00:21:00] I think that writing your own content, is it, yes, it takes time, but it's a hundred percent possible if you take the time to map out like your plan for the month. You know, once a month. Or sorry, once a week for a month. So four emails. Write 'em all in one day. You can do it. It's possible. And. I won't. Okay. I've been talking for a long time, so I'll pause, but like, I have a, a method of like writing an email so that it doesn't take you seven hours. Which if you want me to get into that, I can, but it's, um, possible
Alyssa: Yeah I think it'd be really interesting for other people to hear some different aspects of how to write emails. My question is based off of me being in the industry and being, having the experience of like, Use, I don't think it's the norm for our industry. Like for the account-- I'm talking about the accounting bookkeeping side for us to actually send emails, which is really interesting. a [00:22:00] lot of people don't use a platform. A lot of people aren't familiar-- I do mostly because I know the power of the marketing and also especially what I do at Workflow Queen makes me understand that leveraging email is a good thing.
Alyssa: Remember we started off with once a week for Magnetic, and then I chose bi. I think it's biweekly now is the emails because. The, it's just a different audience. So I'm really curious if maybe there's tips when it comes to, not only maybe email, but maybe something like Post. Cuz a lot of people are moving towards, posting on their Facebook page, posting on their Instagram. Like, while they may not have rolled out, behind the scenes, like for us it's Kartra or, you know, uh, what are the other options that MailChimp, stuff like that. Some people just don't have that set up and it just, they don't have that desire. Like, what would be your recommendation on deciding on where to, regardless of what you're writing, where to showcase it.
Jennifer: Hmm. That's an excellent question. I, I think, I mean, the classic answer is, you know, where does your ideal client hang out?
Alyssa: Yes.
Jennifer: Well, what if you don't know[00:23:00] ? My response to that is like, where do you like to be? Because if your ideal audience are mostly on, I. , but you physically cannot handle going on Instagram because it's just whatever, overwhelming or too much, whatever it is. which I understand by the way. I would say. Okay. Is it more comfortable for you as a person to invite people to onto your email list and then email them? It's much more intimate. It's much more quiet, because you're. Competing with all these other videos of people doing all these things.
Jennifer: So maybe that's where you feel more comfortable. So that's where you choose to do your content. Maybe, you know, like you said with Facebook, a lot of people enjoy being on Facebook and their clients are on there and so maybe that's where you focus your attention.
Jennifer: I think it doesn't hurt to A.B.T. Always Be [00:24:00] Testing. Try something three months, one quarter try Instagram is, that's not really feeling right for you. You wanna switch? The reason that people like, okay, I'm gonna go back to your, point of a lot of people in this industry, specifically the bookkeeping and accounting industry, aren't emailing their lists or even maybe building a list. And I think that's actually to your benefit because people aren't emailing their list, or building. So you're the only bookkeeper in their inbox going, Hey, I've got stuff for you. Do you want it? You know it's free and you're not, you're not competing and you're not competing with all these other bookkeepers in somebody's inbox. And so I think that that's actually an advantage. And to that point, I would. Do an email list, you know? . and, and it's just once somebody even trusts you [00:25:00] enough to give their email over, that is, that's like taking them on a first date. That's a very big deal. And as long as you treat that act with respect, I think that it just can only help you. And yes, people will unsubscribe. That is just gonna happen. But--
Alyssa: that's natural.
Jennifer: Yeah! But at least you're in, you know, like not every relationship works out and that's fine. I think that email is just so much less pressure. And there's less like song and dance. Like Yes, literally, but also like there's less competition for attention. And yes, we all have inboxes that have tons of emails, but if you're writing them regularly and you write ones that people want to read, then there is no competition because they'll set aside time to read your email. So
Alyssa: Yeah definitely. Great. I love it. [00:26:00] This is all very exciting stuff. Now, one thing that we were talking about before we got started today, and before we hit record, was I was like, Jen, I feel like the discussion around AI needs to happen because I think that right now there's a lot of noise in the online space that I've seen very recently, especially in the accounting industry about ai, not only for the copywriting side, but also for like the work that we do, and I think everybody is concerned from any industry, like a lot, a lot of AI is taking over a lot of different things. And so right now one big thing is, what is it called? Jasper Chat, G D P or whatever it's called. I don't use either. But I'm just really curious to know. From your perspective, like what would be the benefit of working with someone more personably and more in a relationship way, like, like this, the way that we work together? Like how you crank out the blogs for us, the emails, and you listen to the what we need and what we want the voice. What would be the benefit of that versus going something like AI or something that [00:27:00] can, you can throw in a couple letters and then it just cranks out a blog. How, like what, what's, what would be. I, I don't wanna say what's the point, but you get what I'm saying, ?
Jennifer: Well, okay. So of course with every situation there's pros and cons and yada yada, but, okay. I have two, I have two very strong opinions about this. And I, I think that just like, just just to start off, like if you don't think AI is a thing, going to be part of our future. I don't think you're paying attention because it absolutely is and when we're talking about like cranking out content in terms of like writing, Ja, oh my gosh, the name of this product is so ridiculous. No one can pronounce it. Chat, g p t, it doesn't flow anyways. When you. Look at something like that, or you look at Jasper and you want them to crank out, quote unquote [00:28:00] content for you.
Jennifer: My experience, cause I've used both of them. My experience with them is that they take, like, it, it, it takes enough effort for me to tell it what I wanted to write about, that I could have just been writing it. Like it takes, thought and intention to tell it, okay, I want you to write me a blog about da, da, da. These are the keywords I want this, you know? And so by the time I've done all of that, and then I've generated things and I've, you know, sometimes it repeats itself, which is fine. You just have to go in there and adjust. So once I've done all of that, I'm like, I could have written two hundred myself, you know. So for me, because I have this system kind of down, it doesn't make sense.
Jennifer: Now if I want to say, Hey, generate 10 blog post ideas about the [00:29:00] benefits of hiring a bookkeeper. Something like that. That's great. And that's a good jumping off point if you want to say, Hey, chat, G P T. What are three things that, small business CEOs want? Okay, well maybe he'll have some, Hey, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it'll have something to share that's helpful. To get the ball rolling, get your juices flowing, for content ideas. That's totally possible. I think, and I, I know I said this to you before, I have never met a robot I want to get brunch with . And that is what a person, a human person brings to a copy that's, authentic to whoever is behind it, you know? And so I think that there is no, like right or wrong way if you are trying to put out content with like [00:30:00] minimal effort, then AI has really good, tools to do that. If you want to put out content that's going to connect with people and make them think, and make them, you know, have emotions or reactions about what it is you, you have to say, then. You can do it either totally from scratch, you can do it with, you know, AI generated, ideas that you can then add to, but you can't do that with 100% AI generated stuff.
Jennifer: And my soapbox moment is like, I can't stand content for content's sake. I feel like it is such a waste of time and it's not going to get you connections. And what I mean by that is like an emotional connection to anything. People can tell at this point, like, [00:31:00] we have so much user generated content at our fingertips, which by that I mean like the reels and the, and tik toks that are just a person in their home doing things and it, it, that generates a connection. Cause they're, cuz you're like, oh my gosh, I love her rug. You know, you can like see people living in their life. And so that creates emotion and that's what makes people want to hire you or want to learn more about you or wanna work with you, whatever it is.
Jennifer: And I just, I feel like. There is not a robot on this planet that is as funny as me, . and you know, like I just feel so good about, that personality factor that I'm able to give to clients that having AI as like a buddy can be great. It's really gonna be a personal preference of, what? You want your content to [00:32:00] be like and how much time you wanna spend on it. .
Alyssa: I think I can agree. I mean, I think AI has its place, like you were mentioning. It's like it could be a great, and I'm sure that you guys even use it, like I can only imagine that copywriters use it now that it's become more and more exposed. I'm actually really curious about that. Have you noticed like what you do, like your industry actually starting to leverage it in a way to kind of give a good baseline when starting to write the copy or write content?
Jennifer: I am still, like I said, I'm still trying to figure out if it's worth my time or if, you know, because I've tried to write stuff with it. Or at least get like an outline for things and again, I just feel like by the time I tell it what I even want, I'm like, I could have just been doing it,
Alyssa: written it.
Jennifer: So yeah. So that, and that might be just because I need to learn more about how to use it best. But anyway, there. Absolutely benefits to using it to give you, an [00:33:00] outline for a specific type of content. So like, if you're writing, sales page for something, or maybe a Facebook ad or something like that, you can use it to generate ideas and generate like a general outline of like, okay, this chunk is going to be about a pain point. This section here is gonna be about the benefits of your solution. This, you know, whatever. So you can use it to generate. I don't wanna say a template outline is probably the best word for it.
Jennifer: So, that you can go in there and then fill in the actual stuff. because one thing that , one thing that a robot cannot do at this present time in 2023 is write a sales page or a sales-- a piece of sales content about something that you created, you know? So if you have, you know, let's say you have like a little mini course [00:34:00] about how to maintain your QuickBooks, in 15 minutes a week, something like that. And you wanna sell a passive course about this topic, the AI robot. Are not going to be able to understand the benefits of your offer. They're not gonna be able to understand, how it connects to the people that you are trying to reach. And so that's where, a human comes in and it's really helpful to understand the difference of between, like understand the, the limitations that AI has at this time, at least.
Alyssa: And I definitely think, like you had mentioned, you kind of hit hit. What is it? Hit the nail on on that. You know, I'm terrible with like slogans.
Jennifer: Is that
Alyssa: what it is?
Jennifer: Hit the nail.
Alyssa: You know what I'm saying?
Jennifer: Nail on that.
Alyssa: I'm like the worst with this kind of stuff.
Jennifer: No, it's the funniest thing ever.
Alyssa: It's, it's even, just as bad as, were you there in [00:35:00] Nashville? So we did a retreat in person guys, and Jen was there, this is when she was working with, for me, and, she was at the Nashville retreat and everyone was making fun of me because I said, "fagitude" and I thought my whole life that "fagitude" was fatigue. Like, and nobody corrected me, nobody. I literally stood on stage at BKX in front of hundreds of people and said, "decision fagitude".
Jennifer: I, I don't know why no one would've.
Alyssa: Nobody, you know, who did? Serena did. Serena Shoup did. Oh, of course. So we were sitting at this thing with students at the Nashville retreat, and she goes, listen, I have a, I have a very serious question for you. Yes, Serena? What is "fagitude"? And I was like, you know, kind of like when you're really tired. And she's like, spell that for me. It was so embarrassing and everyone was dying. I literally, I'm like, how it is? Nobody. I was like 30 when I had done the speech. How did nobody tell me this? I've done like podcast episodes, so anyways, I'm the worst [00:36:00] with slogans. I will probably mess something up. For the longest time I thought that the get-go was a get-go, like a gecko like a, like an animal.
Jennifer: Oh my gosh. Wait, I think there's another one that I always thought was so funny and I can't-- can't remember it now. It doesn't matter, but yes, you, you have, it's, it's a very charming quality and I think that people get joy out of it. So
Alyssa: I think they're like, okay. At least I'm not crazy.
Jennifer: Don't be embarrassed. It is what it is. You're good.
Alyssa: I totally brought, we were talking about, but essentially like ultimately you can. This AI generator or whatever this looks like popping out, just generic stuff, but like you said, where it really comes in handy working with somebody or, or learning it while you can, and like everyone knows here who's listening to this podcast, I am all about outsource your ***. Don't try to put *** on your plate that you're, is not your zone of genius. I am not a copywriter. I actually really like to write and I actually can do a pretty solid, decent job. But I [00:37:00] just find it for me that I can be serving my business in so many better ways by just giving over the work to someone to do it for me.
Alyssa: And so, yes, these AIs will be great for just a quick little foundation, but like you said, if you're offering some sort of, you know, QuickBooks in a Weekend or. You know, a free diagnostic review. The benefits of working with me to get a diagnostic review are gonna be so different than five other accountants, because I'm gonna have a unique approach that AI cannot recognize. And so I think you kind of really nailed it there about how important it actually is that when you are talking about your benefits and talking about your unique approach, because that's just as important. Is these AI softwares cannot do that for you. And the only way that could person, that can convey that is you or someone who understands you thoroughly to be able to translate that for you
Jennifer: And, you just made me think of something else, which is if AI needs you to feed it, everything that it needs to know in order to churn out [00:38:00] something that makes sense, it's only gonna know as much as you are able to tell it. And what I find is that sometimes people like physically don't know how to describe what it is that they're offering, because you're too close to it and you're in your head about it, and that is so common and so normal. So, if you don't know what to tell the AI to write about, it's not gonna be able to do the job well. And, and that is okay.
Jennifer: Because a lot, okay, so if I, if I have. A new client or you know, somebody I haven't worked with, and I'm like, okay, so you need to tell me everything about this offer and why people, why should people buy it from you instead of, you know, Joe over here. I can't tell you how many times I get like blank stares like, Well, I don't, don't know. [00:39:00] I'm like, okay. So that's the first thing we need to focus on, is like, why are people buying it from you? Or why should they? And so, you know, imagine you're sitting there at your laptop and Jasper's like, Hey, what do you want me to write about? And you're like, I literally don't know. Okay. Well then that's, that's work that needs to be done, before anyone AI or human can write well about your offer or your service. Is that right? .
Alyssa: I definitely can agree. I think that that's where people struggle. It's like, what do I, how do I explain what I do without sounding like, we reconcile, we do this, we code transactions. It's like, no, let's fluff that *** up, because ultimately that's gonna be what's gonna get people excited because nobody really cares about coding transactions.
Jennifer: Yeah, pretty much. They, you know, they, they don't, and they don't even know what that is. And that's
Alyssa: exactly.
Jennifer: No, that's fine because that's why y'all have jobs. People don't know what it is cause they don't wanna worry about it. They don't wanna bother with it. I literally know [00:40:00] how to be an effective bookkeeper and I don't wanna do, I don't, that's why I'm here, you know? I don't want any part of it. And there's so much, there's so much joy in paying someone else to do something if you can, to do something that you don't wanna do. It's, it's a beautiful thing. So, I can't speak to it enough. Like I will give-- social media is one of those things for me. I, I haven't, I don't hire anyone cause I like basically don't exist on social media, , but but I, if I needed to, I would. Here's my money. See ya. See ya. Never .
Alyssa: It's like, okay, good luck. That's how I am with Kiara. So Kiara does our social media and I just love her because I never have to tell her anything. She just follows, honestly. She follows the blog. She, she's inside of all my programs. Like she listens, like, she's [00:41:00] just like, I love it. So it's nice because I don't have to touch it and it's my favorite thing. Those are my, my favorites.
Jennifer: Yeah, she does a great job. And then you don't stress about it. Like you just said, you don't stress about it. You're just like, I'm going on a cruise. Bye! And you know, .
Alyssa: Yep, definitely. I can definitely agree. I think this is great. I think a lot of people are gonna really benefit from the conversation around ai because I feel like there's a lot of pressure from like the "gurus" and I'm doing the bunny ears. But you can't see it like saying ai, ai, like you gotta have AI it's gonna replace you, it's gonna do this, it's gonna do that, but it never can do it as well as what we do. Yes, humans have errors, like there are issues, but also AI can never perfect. And so I think it's gonna be really good for people to understand that maybe if they're at a certain stage in their business, like leverage it, but don't rely on it because it's not gonna be. The voice that you want, the voice that you need. And then we all know the simple solution, is just outsource it because what's the point of like sitting here and trying to figure it all out when like,
Alyssa: I'm not gonna be a [00:42:00] copywriter and I don't wanna be, and I just have so much respect for, for you, . I just don't, I'm like, how do you, I, I would like legit, he'll be like in the shower every once in a while and be like, I wonder if Jen ever just like stares at her computer and just doesn't know, or is like, does it just come out like lava?
Jennifer: Sometimes, um, I'm thinking about you--
Alyssa: TMI I know.
Jennifer: I'm like, you're, you're thinking about me. Um,
Alyssa: It happens. I swear to God. I'm not even joking. It has happened multiple times lately, and I don't know why. And it's probably because we have so many open projects with like the new marketing campaign we're doing at magnetic. Oh my God. But that's a real question selfishly for myself. Do you ever get stalled?
Jennifer: Are you kidding? Of course. Yes. And, and I just , I just recently had, a situation where I was just like, I have been [00:43:00] staring at this blank. Page for so long that I now forgot who I am. Like I just don't even know what I'm even doing here. And so, you know, there's always gonna be times like that. And, and there's also, you know, sometimes you're just, you can't shut your own brain off and there's just life is happening around you or whatever it is. And so there's always something, that like is a threat of getting in the way of actually putting words on the page. So yes, 100% That does happen, to me, but I, I think it's to be expected. We are human a hundred percent. Yes. So it's, a beautiful thing to be able to work with-- people will, like clients that I have like, on retainer or long term because that goes away. The more you do the work, the less you don't know what to say.
Jennifer: Right? And so I think like, okay, so [00:44:00] if you're, at home writing this yourself, doing your own emails, doing whatever, even if you just do the work and no one ever sees it, that's okay because it's like, You know, learning how to ride a bike or something like that. The more you're, that you're gonna ride it, the more you're gonna feel confident in it. So, you know, there's there's a famous quote from Stephen King about riding, and he says, write for the trash can. And that basically just means if you feel like you don't want to write or you feel like you don't know what to say, just force yourself to write something, even if it's absolute garbage. And then what you'll find is most of the time you end up getting in some kind of a flow and then something good comes out of it. So I always have, I have a 20 minute rule, so Right. For 20 minutes. If it's still garbage after that, then just walk away . . But if it's, if you start to notice that like, oh, stuff is [00:45:00] actually coming out and it's, and it's good, then, you know, ignore your timer and keep going. But
Alyssa: sometimes you just.
Jennifer: No, you gotta just let it out. , you gotta let it out. And, and having like your list of stuff that you wanna talk about, like from earlier in this conversation, if you have your list, that's super helpful. But also like, if you don't know what people even want to read about or, maybe learn about from you, have you ever asked them? You know, like, I have a very strict policy with my clients. Like when I do, especially, well, when I do one-off projects with them, not so much with you because we've been working together for so long, but when I have like newer clients that I need to get to know them, I have, a survey that I make them send out to their, you know, favorite clients or the most successful ones or whatever, and we pull data from these surveys and then I just use [00:46:00] those words that their clients themselves are using. And then I'm like, oh, this person says that they were concerned about, you know, if they're, they were gonna get the value for the money when they hired this person. Great, let's talk about that. You know? And so that's, and I gotta have myself, but that's called voice of customer data. It's very, very, very, very helpful in marketing. So, anyway. So if you don't know what to, what your people want to read about, just ask them! They'll tell you.
Alyssa: And a great recommendation. So I know a lot of, our listeners aren't on, like I said, like an email list. They just don't have anything like that. There's so many other ways people, you do not have to have this fully flushed out system, 10,000 subscribers and blah, blah, blah. You really don't have to have all that. You can simply use your personal Facebook and literally maybe if you do taxes and you're like, Hey guys, what's the one thing that stresses you about, or, can you please fill out this form that has like multiple questions like, You know, pain points essentially, or like what would you like to know more about what, when it comes [00:47:00] to taxes, whether that's on your personal page, whether that's on your business page, whether that's just like finding a mastermind of your ideal niche. So like, let's just say that you help photographers go to a photography Facebook group. Don't be spammy and legit.
Alyssa: Ask a question and say, I'm really trying to. A foundation to understand what people want with your type of person, photographers. Can you please fill this out and help me out? You're not gonna get everybody in the whole room flooding over to, to fill this thing out, but any data is better than no data. And so whether you have a list or you don't, or you're just overwhelmed by that word, just think about where you can just find at least like five people to respond. And simple Google form, I'm assuming is what you'd probably suggest. Oh .
Jennifer: If you, don't wanna get all all, um, fancy Google form, people will answer it. And I would also highly recommend open-ended questions.
Alyssa: yes.
Jennifer: Instead of
Alyssa: 100%
Jennifer: multiple choice because [00:48:00] you're not gonna get as valuable, responses if you give them answers to choose from. And if possible, like get on coffee chats with people, that you would love to work with. Not like to sell them, but just say like, Hey, uh, I really like your business. I really like what you're doing. Can I just ask you questions about like, how you feel about bookkeeping, for your business? And buy them a co-- like send them a Starbucks card and be like, can you talk for 20 minutes? You know? Because getting people on video, so I do my, I do my client surveys through video ask, because it. Gives people the option to do a video response or a voice response, or they can type, but, you know, I prefer the other two. And that, and they, they get five minutes to answer each question, and then, I mean, the, the responses I get from those versus, written responses are light years different, so. [00:49:00] But yes, if you want. To just get something out there, totally do a Google form. Yes.
Alyssa: Just like get it, get it out there. People we don't need to make, it's like anything that I ever preach, which is always like, done is better than perfect and you can go back later and fix the process. And I do that and I stand by that with everything that I do. It's just like it stalled me so many times in my working life. that sometimes just get a simple Google form. Like Jen said, the biggest piece of advice is the open-ended questions because trust me, that is the best way. And an example of that question would probably be something like, if you can add all of your problems solved and I don't know, what would be a good open-ended question, then you'd recommend I, I have three for you. Oh, perfect. , well listen up.
Jennifer: So the, the I'm, I guarantee I won't remember them all off the top of my head. So I'm just gonna do three for sure. But when I have these, clients send these surveys out, I want to know what was going on in your business before [00:50:00] you, like started looking for a solution. So, you know, in, in your case, solution would be, bookkeeper or taxpayer or accountant, things like that. What was going on in your business? What were your doubts before hiring me? If you haven't worked with this person though, you can say like, what are, what concerns do you have around hiring someone? And then, if, if this is somebody who you have worked with, and you're, you're interviewing like a, a current client or a previous client, you can say like, how did your life. Improve after working with me. but if, if this is somebody that you're just like genuinely doing market research with, this is not a client, you can just ask them what would be like your dream scenario if you hired a bookkeeper. And those are three really easy questions to start with. I have more like if you want to. Really dig in, but like generally, we wanna keep it short and sweet for, especially for people who you don't know.
Alyssa: [00:51:00] And you don't want people to have, you don't wanna make people feel like it's a chore for them to do it. I tell people this all the time, don't make people have to go out of their way, like, Even more than they need to. And that's why sometimes you can entice people with like a gift card or like Jen said, like a Starbucks card. It's like for anybody who fills it out, like make sure to put your email, we'll go ahead and send you like a 10 hour gift card. For us, we raffled off and we did it to my subscriber list. I raffled off, I think it was a 25 hour gift card. It was originally when I launched a podcast last year. I wanted some feedback on like what everybody wanted to hear and so I was like, I picked somebody. And that's another option too, is so like that can get people in the door. I think this is all so amazing. I know that we can talk forever and ever. But one thing that you pinpointed, which actually goes into something that you're kind of offering actually, I believe, to our lovely audience. You talked a lot about the voice of customer data and what that pretty much is like. Do you wanna kind of dive into that? And I believe that's something that you. You have correct. Like that you have for people to use for themselves? I do, I
Jennifer: do have it for the people. Cool. [00:52:00] It's very, easy to use. I have had really good, customer data responses about it. and so it's very, , it's very meta. So I have this. Beautiful email course, which basically just means you're gonna get an email every day. And it's just an introduction into what voice of customer data is and how you're meant to use it in your marketing. and then it also includes a spreadsheet, so that you can create like a database of any feedback that you get, any kind of testimonials and how to pull really helpful. Snippets out of that data that you're collecting. So, it's color coded, it's filtered. Beautiful. I'm very proud.
Alyssa: I mean, who doesn't love a spreadsheet over here? Exactly.
Jennifer: Exactly. Yes. I'm speaking your language with spreadsheets. So, I think it's just, I, I've had people like voice Note me or whatever, voice message me, and they're like, oh my gosh, [00:53:00] this is, So fun and so helpful. And I have people that refer back to it constantly when they don't know what to write about that week or whatever it is that they're doing. So, , so it's really helpful. I gave you the link so you can put it in the show notes.
Alyssa: So I'll, for anybody who's kind of listening, I'll make sure to put that LinkedIn, and it's a, it sounds like it's an asset, it's like a spreadsheet, something that you can along the lines of when you start to actually survey your clients or survey people in general or survey business owners, whatever that looks like, right?
Jennifer: Mmhmm. And there's, there's ideas for questions in there too, which I mean,
Alyssa: oh, perfect.
Jennifer: I also just. Told you what some of them are. So , it's very helpful. .
Alyssa: We're halfway there, my friends. . And now you can have the actual thing. And we all love spreadsheets. Don't, don't, don't pretend like we don't over here. Like there's so much fun. We all nerd out over a pretty color coded spreadsheet Is my jam. Conditional formatting is queen, even though I terrible at it. But anyways. So I'll link everything in the show notes for the, you call it the voice of [00:54:00] customer Data course, correct?
Jennifer: Yeah it's totally.
Alyssa: I'm super excited and, um, for anybody who wants to maybe get ahold of you or maybe wanna work with you, which by the way guys, this is my shameless plug for Jen to say like how much she has been such a great asset for both of my companies. One's an actual bookkeeping firm, and then the other side is here at Workflow Queen. So if you've inter ever interacted with any of our copies. So I have been super happy with her and she makes my life easy. I barely record a couple looms every once in a while, and she runs with it. So also granted, we've been working together for a while, so you gotta know my things. but where can people find you, interact with you, come hire you, whatever that looks like. Well,
Jennifer: I, I do have a website, untamed creative.com, but I think that the most joyful way to get in touch with me if you have a burden question, would be to send me like a voice note on Instagram or something like that. And, I [00:55:00] will be happy to answer any of your questions. I think that this has been so fun and. Just a joy. And oh, by the way, I'm in my closet. So, um, what, what a plot twist for this Wednesday. Um, I didn't know we were gonna be recording in a closet, so, I just think this was just so fun. And thank you for having me on here.
Alyssa: You're absolutely welcome. So , if anybody, if you love this episode and you wanna share it or maybe just share with Jen so she can have her own customer data, share with Jen what you absolutely loved about this podcast. Feel free to tag us over on Instagram. You can tag Workflow Queen and then at Untamed Creative, correct?
Jennifer: Yep. It's @untamed.Creative on Instagram cuz some sneaky sneakerson already had it without .
Alyssa: That's what trademark lawyers are for. That's a whole nother conversation for a whole nother episode. But thank you so much for everybody. [00:56:00] If you like this, please feel free to leave a review. We'd absolutely love it. It really does help keep the show alive. Thank you so much Jen for being here and thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge. I can't wait for everybody to share how much they absolutely love this episode. And thank you.
Jennifer: Yay. Thank you.
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