The Dangers of Layback: Why Pitchers Get Hurt, ft. Jason Colleran

Stop stretching the shoulder to a place it can’t control. We dig into the myth of “layback” and explain why forcing passive end range is a fast track to labrum wear, elbow pain, and shortened careers—especially for growing athletes. With inventor and coach Jason Colleran of Kinetic Arm, we unpack what actually builds safe velocity: thoracic extension, scapular depression, and pec extensibility that create a stable power position, plus foot and hip mechanics that unlock rotation without requiring the shoulder to bear the brunt of the load.

We break down the difference between range of motion and available joint position, why timing and center of mass matter more than still photos, and how a simple change, such as externally rotating the back foot, can open “layback” from below rather than yanking from above. Jason shares how constraint-based training and the Kinetic Arm sleeve provide proprioceptive feedback, limit harmful passive extremes, and support post-op throwers rebuilding horizontal abduction and external rotation. We also focus on the scapulohumeral rhythm, avoiding upper trap dominance, and offloading stressed tissues, such as the supraspinatus, by improving the first degrees of abduction and upward rotation.

Along the way, we call out the training culture that confuses volume with intention and protocols with precision. Maxing in passive ranges, cookie-cutter rehab, and viral cues that ignore structure all drive the injury epidemic. The fix is simple, not easy: assess daily, define a clear goal for each drill, align lines of force with anatomy, and teach athletes to own mid-range positions before they chase speed. When the chain is set—foot to hip to trunk to scapula—the arm stops compensating and velocity becomes a byproduct of efficiency, not a gamble with connective tissue.

If you care about throwing harder and longer without sacrificing your shoulder or elbow, this one’s for you. Subscribe, share with a coach or parent who needs it, and leave a review with the biggest myth you want us to tackle next.

Transcript

Welcome Back & Mission: Save Arms

Dr. Kevin 0:02

Hey everybody, this is Dr. Kevin McGovern and uh we're back. We took a little time off with the Velocity uh RX podcast. Um so please like and subscribe. This helps us out. This gets our message out to help me save one million arms. Um I'm gonna be more uh pinpoint on the next few podcasts about uh educating the public about certain concepts of pitching. And the one near and dear to my heart is something that is actually a made-up term. I looked through all of my textbooks before coming on today, and I did not see the word layback in any of those textbooks. Okay, so layback is a term of essentially stretching the joint, the shoulder joint well beyond its normal range of motion to a weakened position to throw the ball as hard as you can the other way. Don't really understand that. So I brought on an expert to talk about that today because I'm not sure if he fully understands that twisted science. And his name is Jason Colleron. He's been on my show, I think this might be his fourth time with me, and I thank him very much. He is the owner inventor of an unbelievable piece of equipment called the kinetic arm. And guess what the kinetic arm does? Oh, yeah, it prevents the arm from getting into excessive layback. So, Jason, thank you very much for coming on. And while you're introducing yourself, I'm going to put up uh on the screen some pictures of, and I I warn the people uh watching uh on YouTube, these will not be uh pictures that are are you have to I keep putting them up with caution. Okay. So, Jason, again, thank you very much for coming on. I appreciate it once again.

Passive Range vs Active Control

Jason Colleran 1:41

Yeah, thanks again for having me. Um always a pleasure and looking forward to to diving in in deeper and um you know giving some some context to the you know the the terminology that's that's used and made up, as you said, um, but also giving a lot of context and education and and uh kind of visual examples to help you know parents and and a lot of a lot of practitioners that need it that may not be familiar, um, you know, we can help them give a get a better understanding to protect these arms. So looking forward to diving in.

Dr. Kevin 2:12

Awesome. So I'm trying to share my screen. Oh, there we go. So um as you can see, so this is a um a picture of what people have called layback. Um, and you can see it has essentially my Tommy John injury formula of drift, which means the center of gravity has gone forward first, drag the back foot and shrug, meaning we're we're using our upper traps, and that all results in this ugly picture right here. And this is a uh this is a a high school uh senior who's you know, I would say 45, maybe that's even 75 degrees past uh normal external rotation, Jason. What what say you from this position here?

Jason Colleran 3:04

So for me, it's always I always look at it, you know, first in uh in the static position. So I always bring up as an example, um, you know, no thrower on earth can actively go all the way back into that range where they end up into this this as you say, made-up term of layback. And it's similar to uh, you know, Pilates in the the fitness industry, but there's a lot in baseball where people just make up terminology. And it's it's unfortunate because where we have a breakdown of communication and there's there's no stable foundation in which to communicate with, I think that's a big problem. So we have these made-up terms such as layback, but um, yeah, if they can't actively get there and muscle stabilize joints, then we're passively putting that into a range where now all that stress is going to go to the connective tissue. And instead of looking at uh you know range of motion, I always say we should look at the the range of available joint position, which you just showed we're we're far exceeding the active range of available joint position. Um so if we're constantly forcing it back into this position, how much is enough? Because I've never seen one go you know 360 degrees and then come back up because mechanically that's inefficient. Um and then all with timing, it's probably just not possible, but not only active range of um or active range of control as well as you know available range of joint position. So it's it's unfortunate to see the the stretching and smashing and jamming that's going on and putting them into the the positions that are really accelerating the injury process because they think that that's gonna get them velocity. Well, it's also gonna get you injuries.

Kids, Stretching, and Injury Logic

Dr. Kevin 4:41

Unfortunately, yeah. So here's a here's a little guy. I mean, look at the position uh of of the of the elbow. Now I know it's an AI, so AI mess with his fingers, but I could throw up the the shoulder position is exactly the same as as the as the real photo. Um I just don't see how the shoulder can take that um time and time again and the elbow and still be okay. What say you?

Jason Colleran 5:10

And even just a basic example that I've I've brought up recently with um you know stretching and going into passive ranges. Did you see that castle flex product that Ronald Acunia was endorsing?

Dr. Kevin 5:21

No, I haven't. Tell us about that.

Jason Colleran 5:23

So you guess you put your foot in it, it's a strap, you you pull on it. So you're going, you're pulling into dorsiflexion, and you're almost pulling into knee extension um and full hip flexion. So I think the goal is to, as they say, stretch, which what does that mean? We're elongating it, but essentially when you when you continue to do that and you do lengthen that tissue, now you've destabilized the structure. So if the connective tissue around that joint, the joint capsule is now uh a longer range than it should be or a longer length than it should be, um, you know, he ended up with two ACL tears. I'm not saying the device did that, they pulled the ads real quick, but you know, my wife and I went to a game and and they were uh pretty aggressively, passively stretching them on the field, and she said, Why are they doing that? And I said, Because they don't understand structure and function and muscle inhibition. So just something that basic, and then we look at something as complex as you know the shoulder, um and then we think, okay, what are we really doing with the shoulder? Because as you know, uh at the probably the high school level, definitely at the college level, I'm sure at the professional level, the the the large majority of these athletes have asymptomatic labrum tears.

Labrum Limits and MRI Reality

A Safer Power Position for Throwing

Dr. Kevin 6:35

Oh you just again, the you know, the people that are teaching that have never been in a gross anatomy class, have never examined the dead body, right? You take, you know, just so people know the labrum is this piece of cartilaginous tissue that goes right on top of the humerus, and it only has so much give. So when you take the shoulder, 45, 75, 90 degrees. That picture I showed you, that little eager, that's 90 degrees past the stop, like the stop sign, stop. It just it can't. And it and it, you'll you'll get stretched out labs, and then people will look at MRI and be like, oh, I have a you know a 35% slap tear. Well, yeah, of course you do. Like there's no you can't get that. And I don't and everyone teaching that, so I'm gonna put up a I'm gonna put up um everyone's like, well, you should put up you know what you teach, so I will do that. So here is my layback. Now, layback, again, is the cocking phase of throwing, right? We have it in tennis, we have it in football, we have it in the javelin, but no one except baseball goes 90 degrees past the endpoint. So I believe that you get layback from thoracic extension, scapular depression, and pec extensibility to be in this position like he is here. This is a power position. One, I wouldn't want my face anywhere near this hammer fist that's coming down, right? I wouldn't want to be a board that's gonna be in front of him that he's gonna smash through. Now, he does have his foot, his tiptoe in contact with the ground, okay, but his arm is in extremely significantly better position. And as if we fast forward two or three frames of the still photo, he does get his foot off the ground, which allows him to rotate around the front foot. Okay. You cannot rotate around and have rotational force with two points of uh two two levers into the ground, right? Because then it's just gonna go up the kinetic chain. Just like you don't have a merry-go-round that has two posts, it has one post to spin around. Human bodies the same way. When you have two posts, the body tries to spin, the force is shot upwards into the shoulder. I don't understand dragging the foot. No, quarterbacks don't do it, tennis players don't do it, javelin throwers don't do it. Why do pitchers do it? I don't get what say you, sir.

Jason Colleran 8:57

I think it's it's always interesting to look at anatomical function and in that picture where it looks like the center of mass is more, I don't want to say over the front foot, because anatomically it's gonna let them pull more with the trunk flexors.

Dr. Kevin 9:11

So that was um, I mean he's in basically a mini lunge, right? He's really centered over a center of mass there.

Footwork, Rotation, and Layback Illusions

Jason Colleran 9:18

Yeah, so that center of mass is almost over that front point of contact or base of support. Um, when it's in the middle, it's kind of like kind of like hitting. If you're out front, you're not gonna have much power. If you're in the rear, then you can use what you have for power. So um Chris Butchak brought this up to me. He was a first-round draft pick way back at Auburn. He's a local local instructor, great guy. So he was talking about kind of um rotating on on planes, so it's almost like purely rotation this way and then almost extension flexion this way. So he was talking about finding kind of the the most efficient combination of those two, and I thought that was really interesting. But when you when you talk about the the foot position, um for the listeners at home, stand up, get in like an athletic stance, and then drop one foot back, so it looks like you're trying to go into layback, right? So keep that back foot flat, so they'll be just like this, and I'll rotate back and see how much layback you get. And then I want you to do this pivot that back heel so your foot and your hip are externally rotated, and then you'll find that you get more motion. So just another example of how structure dictates function. So for coaches, and I I actually uh brought that up to a pitching coach, um, you know, does a lot of motion capture, great guy, very, very in-depth, but it's these little details that coaches and parents are missing. So sometimes look at the foot position because if you're looking at something in slow motion or a still shot and thinking, damn, they're not getting much layback. Well, if you limited that range of motion below that, then it's gonna limit the range above that, or you're gonna have to create these you know structural defects to try to achieve what what you think should be the superficial end range. So that's um, I urge parents and athletes to do that just to see, oh wow, maybe I do need to look a couple levels down because I can I can stretch this all I want, but if I'm limited in range, you know, at the trunk, at the hip, at the foot, then I'm just gonna keep stretching and stretching until something breaks. And then as you're showing in those examples, um, you know, the arm's gonna have to compensate. So now we're driving shoulder and elbow stress up.

Drift, Timing, and Lost Velocity

Dr. Kevin 11:33

I'm glad you mentioned foot position. You know, front foot position is really dictated by or you know, front foot strike, by you know, where the center of gravity is, right? So many kids don't move correctly. So many of these pitching gurus are not teaching kids how to do fundamental movement. So they're literally letting them drift, right? Because you lift your leg up and do, I mean, I got a picture of David Cohn in this unbelievable one-legged, one-legged squat. Look at Roger Clemens, look at Kurt Schilling, look at Greg Maddox, look at all the pitchers of yesteryear. You're going to see a nice vertical drop and then and then move forward. But now they're letting these kids just drift forward and they're like, oh, they're promoting. Yeah, it look every time someone drifts, the arm never, ever catches up. It can't. Okay. So then you get all your center of masses forward, and you just mentioned it hitting, it's stepping in the bucket, right? If you put your center of mass all the way forward when there's a curveball and you got fooled and you're hitting off your front foot, you can't do it. There's no power. But yet you're teaching someone to throw the baseball at max effort by doing mechanically opposite of what you would teach hitting, and it's the same rotate, it's basically the same kind of rotational movement. Okay. And it while you're doing something that you didn't teach 30 years ago that you're doing now, yes, or pitching's throwing harder, okay, great. But the radar guns are down to the you know, point, you know, could take miles per hour out to three digits now, okay? Before they were getting it right at home play. So, you know, I've even had people try to tell me that Nolan Ryan didn't throw didn't throw 90 miles. Not only didn't he throw 100, he didn't throw 90. I've got a viral clip over a million views, just one moron on there saying that he didn't throw 90. Dude, are you kidding me? Like it's it's in it's insane. And you know, I guess if you want to, you know, like last night, right? You want to watch two pitchers, okay, one former Cy Young winner and one guy who could be a Cy Young winner. If you want to watch them be out after three innings, great. If that's if that's your product, fine, you know, if that's what that because that's that's what you're getting. So they're either out because they're ineffective and can't throw strikes, but all of them were you know, 95 plus on the gun, they're out, you know, and or they're hurt. And those are the guys that made it. How about the tens of thousands that haven't made it? Which is why your product is is helping so many kids who to understand, because not only is your product you know, bracing them, it's also giving them kinesthetic sense on on where to stop. That's been the feedback of of my guys that when the brace is off, they now mind-body know, okay, this is my stop, this is where I need to stop.

Kinetic Arm: Constraint, Feedback, Support

Jason Colleran 14:18

Yeah, with with young kids, so uh we could say that the the bones are growing faster than the muscles, so they have these longer levers and they have to produce more torque uh reforce, and um you know that's that can lead to evulsion fractures, but a lot of times we see the arm kind of lag behind. So the the parents and coaches get frustrated because hey, get that's one thing you hear a lot, get your arm up, do this, do that. Well, again, we have adults throwing a five-ounce ball and kids throwing a five-ounce ball, but in I think every other sport, soccer, basketball, football, we use a little bit of common sense, baseball is behind, and they throw a lighter ball. So they're not using a 30-ounce bat, obviously. But anyways, so if neurologically the brain is orchestrating the most efficient solution for them to throw that ball, they may not be strong enough to have, I don't like saying motor pattern because pattern indicates that it's the same every time, and it's definitely not. So I'm not gonna stay away from patterns, but with that movement that we want them to repeat efficiently, what the kinetic arm can do is it can prevent that arm from lagging behind. And then what that's gonna do is offload stress from that anterior shoulder and the elbow. So if we can prevent the permanent structural damage on these kids from a young age, how many years can we be adding to their playing career? Even if they just want to have fun and we can keep them healthy and out there doing what they love, that's a big win. And even up to uh you know, high-level college and professional guys, what they've said is you know, because it covers so much surface area, um, they get that kind of proprioceptive feedback element. And some of them have said, wow, I didn't realize my arm path was so sloppy. So a lot of times we'll hear that it it kind of helps to you know correct their mechanics or you know, optimize them. So it's um, and to your point with with layback, uh, what a lot of physical therapists have said is they use it as an active constraint. So if you're returning to play and you're maybe not comfortable, you know, going into this made up layback, um, you know, it can it can help to give more support. And then in my facility, I think it's close to a dozen guys after a slap repair, labrum surgery, and about the same after Tommy John. So they've been cleared to throw, they still have that anterior tilt and they're kind of throwing darts. Well, when they put on the sleeve, it's almost like their brain senses, okay, the the demand for force output or stabilizing that that structure isn't as high. So we'll see them actually start to go into horizontal abduction external rotation or layback as we call it. So it's interesting to see the the many ways that it helps. But um, you know, we're really in baseball, we're exceeding the the stress threshold of the tissue in the structure. And that's you know, uh, you know, while we're chasing velocity, we're also chasing injuries.

Scapulohumeral Rhythm Done Right

Dr. Kevin 17:07

100%. And you you mentioned another thing about the surface area. The other thing that I mean, constantly I see kids that cannot that destroy the scapular humeral rhythm that do not move. So for those playing at home, depending on what textbook you read, for every three degrees your arm gets into elevation, abduction, anyway. Your shoulder blade needs to turn into the spine and depress two degrees. Some some people have it a one to one. I learned it is three to two. But what we never want are the beach muscles to fire, right? The upper traps. When I see, you know, the inverted W, the T, that's all firing the upper traps. That's making the shoulder blade move opposite that it's supposed to. And when that happens, start the egg timer, you're going to get hurt. So the kinetic arm, because it has articulation to the shoulder blade in the back, really promotes and helps them keep their shoulder blade in a downward and depressed area, inhibiting the upper trap. People find it easier, especially after doing a multitude of scapular depression exercise, which I make them do. They feel now that they really can then feel that you know, thoracic extension, scapular depression, and pec extensibility. My AK layback, as we saw in that picture. So that's another benefit of this.

Jason Colleran 18:23

And and also talking about the kind of the musculature. So we've got the rotator cuff that kind of compresses that humeral head into the the glenoid. And as you mentioned earlier, the labrum, kind of the the cartilaginous surface that almost makes it a deeper socket. And it's not a not a very deep socket, it's almost kind of like a golf team.

Dr. Kevin 18:42

Very that's a great analogy.

Jason Colleran 18:44

While the sleeve is on, it's also helping to offload that mass. So we've got to think if you're standing up and you're under anesthesia or you wanted to Botox your shoulder, it's gonna fall right out of socket. So there is a there is a little bit of muscle tension, and that's not to say that contributes to fatigue. It's it's kind of um, you know, it has to be there to keep your shoulder stable. But with all this throwing and all this distraction force, it's more stress on the musculature and the tissue that's keeping that shoulder complex stable. So another thing is um we have a you you've probably seen the almost uh kind of home plate-shaped polymer on the top. So we think about like the superspinatus, that's about the first, again, depending on which textbook, 10 or first 10 or 15 degrees, yeah. Of abduction. So we're putting a little bit of tension into abduction to hopefully offload that because if we have that that anterior tilt or that depressed scapula, that's kind of our preset neutral that we're working from. I mean, when we're going up to the side, if if this is the humerus and this is the scapula, we don't have that upward rotation, it's almost causing impingement. So that's another goal that people probably won't realize, and that's okay. Um, but that's one of the goals that I had was to help with that first 10 to 15 of abduction, because if we can cut down on you know something like superspiratus tendinitis and take some load off that tissue as well, even if we're getting impingement, hopefully that helps.

Coaching Errors and the Injury Economy

Dr. Kevin 20:14

So just another It definitely helps so nicely because you know, no one, all these kids have protracted and elevated shoulders. Why? Because they're on this all day, right? Or they're playing video games, they're not it's I no one has has passed my my shoulder coordination test, my game test, which really is just measuring the scapular humor rhythm. So if you're failing the scapular humor rhythm and then taking a ball and throwing it at maxed effort, your your chances of staying healthy are are slim to none. And the kinetic arm definitely helps with that mechanism. Like I can I've I I have seen kids before now, like you can have them throw and move, take it off, and their shoulder blade moves better. So bless you for seeing, and I'm not the you know, I'm a form I'm a reformed altar boy, but bless you for creating a product that is helping so many kids, adults, and you should have 10 times more. We both should have 10 times more traction than we than we do in the game because the injury epidemic continues to get worse. You have people teaching literally the wrong stuff. Not not not like you know, I wouldn't necessarily just stuff that is literally a no-go. Like literally a no-go. And you know, they're getting the clicks and the likes, and the injury rate just keeps going up and up. And I don't know if I told you that you know, I had my first gal a couple years ago with Tommy John surgery because you know her coach was throwing weighted balls out in the outfield, like uh, you know, teenage girl, you know, 14 years old, completely not developed to to do anything that anywhere near that kind of exercise. And you know, I can't necessarily fault the coach, he doesn't know. He looks at like YouTube, like you and I do, and he just doesn't he's trying to help out. Oh, this worked. Look at these guys are saying this. Look how many likes they have. Let's try this on the field tomorrow.

Jason Colleran 22:14

And boom. And that's yeah, that I always say the the road to injury is paved with great intentions. Um, but it's it's not what these coaches don't know that's the problem, it's what they think they know. And you know, maybe maybe they learned it, or it's like a game of telephone, right? So it gets distorted every time it's relayed or every time it's copied, and um, they're quick to regurgitate, pardon my language, some bullshit that they heard from a social media guy because he has a big following, or um, you know, the person's been around for a while. And another another one I like to say is just because they got to the the top of the the hill first, it does not mean they belong there.

Speaker 01 22:54

That's for sure. That is for sure.

Jason Colleran 22:56

You look at some of these guys that have big followings and they're doing heavy symmetrically loaded lifting, um, you know, just flipping it, it's it blows my mind. And uh they have a lot of injured guys that are hanging around their facility. So some of the guys that I had that were out of Van Dy, they said, Hey, how come so-and-so in Florida, how come he doesn't train us like this? I said, Well, he doesn't understand resistance mechanics, he didn't didn't play. He was a tennis player and a power lifter. That's not baseball. So if if you're not able to apply force with precision and also keep in mind that structure dictates function, you know, being able to lift heavy things and uh use some big words, it means nothing if you don't if you don't understand the practical application.

Dr. Kevin 23:34

And how many Tommy Johns has that person had in their major league organization they now sit at the top of the heap of? Too many to count. Including including the franchise who plays right field.

Jason Colleran 23:46

Yeah, I just uh I sent a message through social media to their team doc. It probably won't get there, but um just saying, like, hey, you know, he needs a he needs a kinetic arm. But um on that note, one of the organizations we have talked about in the past, uh, that's had a lot of a lot of pitching injuries this year and you know, big hamstring issue in the past, they their medical director recently reached out and and ordered more. Um, we just had a catching coordinator, you know, from one of the other teams reach out and um some rehab directors from another another organization.

Planning Training: Structure Dictates Function

Dr. Kevin 24:16

So I think I think they're starting to understand, okay, if what we're doing year after year is not, I'm gonna call it not successful, because if you have, I mean, yeah, there there's gonna be accidents here or there, and and or not nothing, not just none of us are saying that we're gonna 100% prevent injury. That's crazy, right?

Jason Colleran 24:36

And I will I will throw out it in their defense so I don't make too many people mad. Um, by the time they're getting these athletes, they're pretty beat up already. However, knowing that, I think they should really uh the you know do no harm, but really proceed with caution and train them in the most safe environment they can and be precise. So when I see um, you know, I was at the the Reds facility and talking to a strength coach, and um one of the pitching coaches was there, a great guy. And this you know, strength coach is talking about playing with these water bags, and I said, Well, what's your goal? And he just kind of looked at me and I said, If you don't have a goal, why are you using that tool?

Dr. Kevin 25:16

What's your goal? What's your intention?

Jason Colleran 25:18

Well, I said, Read only this. What's the what's the line of force? What's the point of application of force? What's the axis? What's where's the moment arm? And what are you doing? He no idea. So it's it's a lot of this monkey see monkey do, and in these organizations, you gotta remember, they're cheap. You know, they spend a lot on on uh athletes, but um, you know, to get a kid fresh out of school that wants some clout, um, you know, you're you're not gonna get the best results from that. And uh, you know, I feel like the CSCS used to have a little bit of prestige, the RSCC, same thing. Um, but seeing uh like who's it, Chris Romano, he's a local guy that was trying to badmouth his sleeve, and it's like, wait a second, you guys kicked me out of your Facebook group because you're telling people that push-ups are dangerous for kids, and they should be doing a dead hang. Where do those foreign flexors attach? Right at that medial epicondyle where you're gonna get the damn avulsion fracture. So it's okay to use your brain, even after you have a degree or a certification, you can still use your brain and put a little bit of common sense into that.

Protocols vs Precision: Therapy Critique

Dr. Kevin 26:20

Just a little bit, just and then you know, they they always have to be right and they can't be proven right, which is like you know, like I didn't want the back up what you said about you know getting these kids injured. I I had a a player from Pennsylvania came out a couple years ago. He was at Coastal Carolina and then went to Virginia for his lap. But you know, Coastal Carolina was one or two years removed from winning the national championship, and he was getting a lot of time because they had six guys injured. And I said, What are they doing? And the mother said the greatest thing to me. She said, She's like, Well, you know, not for nothing, but how do you know that they didn't already come to school injured? And I'm like, you know what? That is one of the most intelligent things I have heard. Yeah, I don't know that, right? They may have come to Coastal Carolina with 400,000 miles on an arm that only should have 25,000 miles. You're right.

Jason Colleran 27:25

You're right. Yeah, to the same point, I think um, I think a lot of the a lot of the not blame or responsibility, but strength coaches. What are we doing? There's uh I think it's Lee University in Tennessee, one of their one of their you know, stud outfielders uh had some draft interests. I think it was two years ago. Uh so he's deadlifting. Of course, I want him to max out because that matters. You're you're not gonna be the strongest kid on earth, so just just give it up. And by the way, rip my peck off the bone with a strength coach, never would have maxed out, never would have gone into that passive range. I can't actively get to on my own. So let's apply max load there. Really stupid. So they have him deadlifting kid shoulder pops, gets the MRI results, and uh torn laborum. So he's out. And the goes and tells the coach, coach says, Bummer.

Dr. Kevin 28:15

Bummer.

Jason Colleran 28:16

But at in my facility, we'd see uh, you know, kids come in, um, or they'd tell me what their strength coaches were having them do. They'd they'd load up hundreds of pounds on the hex bar, jump up, and then try to stick the landing. I just if you place a five-pound weight on your foot or you drop one from eye level, are they the same? We could just say force equals mass times acceleration, which is a small wormhole that we could also go into, and it's not exactly not exactly correct. But um, just as a basic example, so um, yeah, I think I think a lot of the responsibility is on on these coaches, and it was on uh on I think the first or second podcast I did with you, um, that I kind of had this this epiphany when we were talking about uh you know Tom Brady's strength coach. And I thought, wait a second, it's not what he's doing that's making him successful, it's what he's not making.

Dr. Kevin 29:10

Yeah, look how much heat that guy took, right? I mean, Tom Brady, the only time Tom Brady ever missed time is when his own lineman rolled into his leg and he tore it, which is completely there's no way he could have prevented it. Other than that, the guy played what, six, I mean, ridiculously, yeah, it's what he's not doing. Exactly.

Jason Colleran 29:28

And it's you know, I've I've had um I've trained some of the best fighters and and world champion grapplers in the world. I mean, incredible athletes, and they'll come in. Have I showed you how one can completely shift his tibia under his femur? No, really. Oh my goodness. Oh, yeah, I got him iPad right here. So almost I don't I don't know if he has any ligaments left in his knee, but uh and he's still he's still fighting, animal at the highest, at the highest level, but that uh you know, playing meniscus tears, but the amount of the Amount of things that I've had to work around and be real precise with, I'm not beating up these athletes because they're already beat up from sparring. But at the same time, these five, six, seven-hour practices where you're just going through the motions and you're not getting able to rest. And you're, you know, we used to have coach, oh, we're gonna take 300 swings today. What's the goal?

Speaker 01 30:21

What's the purpose? What's the goal?

Parents, Gurus, and Misplaced Trust

Jason Colleran 30:23

If your swing goes to to hell after you know 10 hard swings, then you're just causing issues. But um, you know, it's they don't understand that these athletes they're already overstressed, and then they want to add more load to that without understanding that if there's some kind of asymmetry, maybe at the hip, maybe at the foot, maybe with the the spine.

Dr. Kevin 30:43

And there's and there's always asymmetry. Always all every single day. There's I could adjust. Well, there's always asymmetry.

Jason Colleran 30:55

And that's that's a a conversation that I have that's tough with strength coaches. Um, you know, this guy that he I don't think he ever worked in my facility. He wanted to, he's got his online training and you know, kind of self-proclaimed expert. He's young, they're all young. They're sipping uh, you know, child latte on their parents' balcony, telling you they're a life coach, all that stuff. But they said if if you show up and your your coach or trainer doesn't have a plan for you, then they failed. No, you idiot. If they have a plan for you, that means when you showed up, they didn't ask, when did you train last? Are you training today? Are you hydrated? When did you eat last? Exactly.

Dr. Kevin 31:30

What's your alignment look like? How's your foot moving? Is your spine in alignment? How's your shoulder blade moving? Yeah, exactly. The plan is dictated by the structure of what they present right in front of you at the time. Because guess what? He can look completely different the next day.

Jason Colleran 31:43

What is available at that time, and you only need to work with what is available. If something's not available, that's brilliant, you're magnifying these compensation patterns. You're that's your fault. Now, of course, oh it's well, it's what everybody's doing, it's seem safe. I mean, that these assumptions are what uh what are creating a lot of these injuries, and you know what they say about assume, right? Makes an ass out of you, not me.

Dr. Kevin 32:07

That's uh that's it, right? I mean, it's just you know, everyone will like, oh, when I went to last therapy, they had a whole exercise plan. I'm like, you realize that you present differently every day. And yeah, today we just worked on fit to stand because you had X, Y, and Z. But the reason why they can't do that is you have to understand the why. You got to tell them what the Y is. And if you don't know what the Y is, because you got your degree from whatever, knowing the Y is the key to keeping people healthy and getting them better. Why we're doing it, what purpose, why they got injured, the why. Three most important, the three most important three-letter word in the dictionary. Why.

Evidence, Innovation, and Real-World Results

Jason Colleran 32:53

And with with my my clients or athletes, or you know, if I was doing an in-service or um, you know, consulting, I always tell them, I want you to challenge me. I want you to pick apart every damn thing I do because there's always gonna be intention behind every single thing that we do. Why it's paired up that way, what comes first, what comes second. Um, but back to what you were saying about the uh, you know, the the plan when they go to therapy. I went through that with my peck, who was ripped off for two years. Then I'm going to someone, oh, do you notice everyone always says that they're the best? So I go there, oh, this guy's the best. So I'm in there, and I'm I'm not saying anything negative, but I'm in there with well, about the the physical therapy I am, but not the people in there. So I'm in there with um obese women, you know, all over 50, and we're all going through the same exercises.

Dr. Kevin 33:42

Did we have that makes a lot of sense?

Jason Colleran 33:45

It makes a lot of sense, right? Unless maybe I have this uh this weird, distorted uh view of of of myself. Maybe maybe I was just like them and uh I'm at I'm in the wrong, but I I doubt it. But um, why am I going through the same basic preset protocol trash as they're going through? And then wouldn't you know it at the end of that? I still couldn't even do a modified push-up. And then I get it to an upper extremity class for the the muscle testing internship that was 11 months of drinking from a fire hose. So we put Pec major in a shortened position. I can't resist at all. So what good was all that physical therapy and corrective exercise, which almost is all BS, if we didn't neurologically turn that back on and gradually raise that that threshold and have strategic progressions. So it's always, you know, with that, it's C symptom, chase symptom. Well, just because that's where the smoke is, doesn't mean that's where the fire is.

Dr. Kevin 34:43

If you chase symptoms, you are never going to get your athlete better. You are never going to get your patient better. Symptoms is what it is, a symptom. If if you don't identify the root cause and why it's the root cause, go to another place, turn around and run.

Jason Colleran 35:00

Yeah, right away. I had um this this mom brought her her son in. I think he was around 12 or 13. Sever's disease, Oscar slaughters. Um, wow. Wouldn't you know it? He came in because his arm hurt. And I I told her, um, well, the issue is if he can't get that ground reaction force or push off and use his lower body, naturally he's gonna try to use everything else that is available until it's not available. Now we have pain. And she said, Well, I think he just needs a pitching coach. And I wanted to say, just because you can neuter a possum, that does not make you an expert, you know.

Dr. Kevin 35:36

But really, it's like the old Tommy boy. If I want to get a T-bone and I look up the butcher, yeah, exactly.

Final Takeaways & Where to Learn More

Jason Colleran 35:46

And it's um, but it that's another another aspect is these egos, you know. Uh people that think they have clout because they worked, and some some that um you know came out, I'll just throw it out there that the Dodgers organization with their high injury rates. You got guys like like Croton and and Buffy and all these other guys that think they're magnificent. It's like, what was the injury rate when you were there? And if you were making such an impact, why are you not still there?

Speaker 01 36:11

Exactly.

Jason Colleran 36:12

If you showed, if you showed that value and you bring that much value to where the the organization is going to get a return on that investment, which is probably not that big, why aren't you there anymore?

Speaker 01 36:24

It's a great question.

Jason Colleran 36:25

Now, um, Ryan Yoshida from Armored Heat, he's a great guy. He's a he's ahead of the curve. I do like him. So I like some of their stuff.

Dr. Kevin 36:32

I've seen some of their stuff.

Jason Colleran 36:33

Yeah, I'm not I'm not lumping him in there. We've we've had some uh some great phone discussions, and also he's not a not a clout chaser.

Dr. Kevin 36:39

So and then well, then you got the parents who chased who chased that, right? I mean, yeah, gotta keep up with the job. Oh, my kid, not only they chased a travel ball, but then they you know trick chased these gurus. And you know, I did a whole podcast on the you know parents contributing to the injury rate, because they do, because they don't, you know, they don't listen to experts, they listen to perceived experts, right? Or or social, like, you know, what is their background? Do they you know, but I don't know.

Jason Colleran 37:10

That's the that's the tough part. And um, just because someone played at a high level, it doesn't mean they're qualified to give instruction. I've worked I've worked with and around some of the the best athletes in the world, some of the best fighters in the world, and um their instruction is terrible. So just because they were able to do it, it doesn't mean they understand why things are done that way. It doesn't mean they understand how things function, it doesn't mean that when their trainer was taking them through something, they didn't understand that there was there was actually a goal. Um so I gotta show you this real quick. So can you see that non-union fracture?

Dr. Kevin 37:51

I can. Oh, the color, whoa, what happened there?

Jason Colleran 37:54

So, first rib. So, this is a uh, I think a 12-year-old softball player. So goes in, has a fracture of the rib, and do you know what the so the ortho sends her to physical therapy? What in the hell or God's green earth or whatever universe you come from do you think a physical therapist is gonna do for that fractured rib? Mobilize the damn thing and let it heal. Right. The truth is it's crying in pain.

Dr. Kevin 38:17

And that's up with I bet you had had her do I's, y's, and t's, right?

Jason Colleran 38:23

Yeah, that rolling up by the way, that that throwers 10 needs to be put in a garbage can and and wheeled out to the curb. Like, for God's sakes, for to be called to use the name institute in medicine, and you're that far behind to where you're still not even looking at foot function or the trunk. And I know this because I've had patients sent to me from those PTs. Well, they didn't send them to me. The athletes still had arm pain after they finished PT. So I don't know if the insurance got sick of paying for it, uh, but they were clear to throw. And again, they have no scapular retraction, they have no trunk rotation to their throwing side, and that's not even including a lot of the jacked-up hip and and football.

Dr. Kevin 39:01

After already going to a guru, right? That's what makes you that's what pisses me off.

Jason Colleran 39:06

It does a guru. And um, you know, I was I've talked to a couple research groups recently, and um, you know, some call them research groups, some call them innovation. Look, there's been no innovation from these places. What has what has made a noticeable difference? Um, and I always say if if you look at you know the kinetic arms testimonials, reviews, we haven't paid a single dollar, and I haven't seen any product out there that has that many compelling stories and uh you know positive feedback. So um that's why I always say I I you know challenge whatever research organization, whatever group is selling products, uh, you know, as we've said, we can do it live on a stage. Do your investment, give your correctives. I won't watch, I'll show you every single thing you missed and how to be more efficient. Um, but it there's there's got to be change. And um, you know, the the first one through the wall gets the bloodiest. And uh, as you know, I'm more than happy to be that guy. So um, yeah, I love the breaking down the science of it and uh you know looking at how things are done. But it's it's just interesting that there's this kind of narrow academic spectrum where you know if someone learns something in school or in a certification, it's probably outdated. It might be the professor wrote the textbook, but um, you know, a college is a business. You know, it's they're not they're not looking to give you the latest and greatest, they've already got the curriculum preset. So I think I was talking to uh a neurologist and she was telling me it's about 10 years from when something is kind of proven in research until it becomes common practice. So, of course, we've got the uh insurance company loopholes and things like that.

Speaker 01 40:41

Oh, yeah.

Jason Colleran 40:41

Uh dozens, dozens of stories with uh with that stuff, especially when when I had to go to Germany for two major reconstructions um after educating the surgeons here. But but yeah, back to back to layback. It's uh it's kind of like these Pilates terms where they're saying you gotta get long here. What does that mean? Or they it what drives me nuts, and I know I'm going on a rant, engage your core. Did they fall over when they walk through the door? Then shut up about the damn core. And let when you sit down and and you're on the toilet, you really engage your core.

Speaker 01 41:16

Absolutely.

Jason Colleran 41:23

It blows my mind. That is buzzwords.

Dr. Kevin 41:26

Well, Jason, I appreciate you taking the time to coming on again. And how do people find the kinetic arm? How do they get in touch with you? This is a great product that I wholeheartedly endorse. So tell tell the audience how they find you.

Jason Colleran 41:39

Uh go to thekineticarm.com. We've got some uh some great information on there. Uh on the How It Works page, we've got some some recent research case studies, uh, some that we haven't put on there yet that are that are pretty excellent as far as what the data's showing. Um, and we didn't take part in any of those. Those were just done off site. Um, so it's it's great to you know have people reach out. And recently the the Georgia Tech Biomedical Engineering students reached out, and um, that was great. But yeah, visit visit uh the kineticarm.com on social media at the kinetic arm. And um, if there's any any question you have that the website can't answer, we'd be more than happy to help. So thanks again for having me and you're welcome.

Dr. Kevin 42:21

I love it. So you can visit my social media at dr kmcgovernpt, uh, my YouTube channel. Please like and subscribe. And thanks for listening, and we'll see you soon. Thanks, everybody.