"Tumbleton & Unbowed and Unbent" HOTD S3 | EP4 & EP5

For our 90th episode of the pod, we combine our coverage of House of the Dragon Season 3 Episodes 4 and 5 and discuss whether the story is building tension or stuck at a stop sign. We dig into character lows for Criston, Aegon, Aemond, and Rhaenyra, then end on the chilling message sent by the Gold Cloaks sequence.

Transcript

Welcome And Two Episode Format

SPEAKER_03 0:14

Welcome to Dancing with Dragons, a podcast dedicated to the world of a song of ice and fire created by George Armine. My name is Tony. Here I'm my co-host Minwa. In this podcast, we delve deep into the lore, characters, and of course the shows of Game of Thrones, a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. The show we'll be reviewing today, The House of the Dragon, will be giving you a two-for-one special. We'll be discussing episode four and five of season three titled Tumbleton and Unbowed and Unbent. Meanwhile, it's been a while since we covered two show episodes into one podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Uh yeah, it's been a while since we've done this. Like combined two episodes of Game of Thrones slash Hassel Dragon 1. I think the last time was when we covered season two of Game of Thrones, but actually it kind of worked out for the best. I know you were busy and that's why we couldn't record last week. But um seeing episode five this week, and now when we were reviewing our notes prior to recording, I think we both kind of agree that it kind of makes sense to cover them together. They work well to to be covered and combined together. There's a lot of um connections, even though episode four last week was like a mid-season episode. Not like not much happened for us to be like, oh, it needs its own separate thing. It works well at episode five.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

I think it felt like a long episode instead of two separate ones. But yeah, like I mentioned last

Vacation Viewing And Spoiler Dodging

SPEAKER_03 1:38

week, uh I was going on vacation or holiday, and I was gonna try my best to take my equipment, and then at the last second, I said, you know what, I'm just gonna focus on vacation. So the House of the Dragon can wait a week, it'd be fine. And then it was very difficult to not uh get any spoilers, even though because now with the show and the book not even being as closely knitted, I mean, together, you know what I mean? I I knew that going online, like I was going into my personal Instagram because I don't get that on my feed, like it's not on my algorithm, like we have the separate, you know, Dancing with Dragons Instagram, and that is just completely like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Like it within seconds of an episode of finishing, you have HBO already putting up spoilers. I remember when Jace dies in the first episode, literally one minute in 7.01 p.m. when it finished airing, already they had you know the Jace's death scene up on HBO, so it was very hard to not be spoiled. So I ended up watching episode four on the way back to the States on a plane, which was very weird because I'm very picky about seeing shows like this. And Christopher Nolan would have been disappointed seeing me and my little phone watching it's okay, it's okay. Yeah, it was okay. Uh so yeah, it's as long as you watch it. Yeah, it was fine. I mean, I I think it was worth it going back uh for the vacation. It was a very special time to go and to take the kids, you know, especially taking them to where my parents were born and raised. Uh, so I mean I could go on and on how great it was, but uh, I think we need to just get started and start with episode four. And for this, uh for this particular podcast, we're gonna try to combine the episodes together. That way we're not doing one episode than the next. So we'll we start talking about Kristen Cole. We might be discussing him in both four and five.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Okay, let's get started. I'm glad you had a great weekend, and I can't wait to hear about it after we record. Uh, but yeah, I think we this could easily be a two-hour recording, even though even if we we just focus on the episode, so we might as well just uh try to um talk about it. I think we can start off with one of two um unlikable characters, and that's either Aegon and Laris or Kristen Cole. Who are you feeling more

Criston Cole And War Weariness

SPEAKER_01 4:09

right now, Tony?

SPEAKER_03 4:10

Who do you want to talk about? Uh let's just get crispy out of the way. Um, okay. You know, um, what's his name, Fabian? Um Franco. Yes. He's a great actor. I really enjoy him, uh, but I'm just tired of seeing him already. Um, it's just like he his nihilism has reached a point where he just like, okay, we get it. You know, we're you're marching towards your death. Poor Sir Sir Gwen is like, please, can we just turn around and go to my uncle? I don't want to just face this uh death that you're you're yearning for. Like he he he knows he's gonna die, so he's just like, let's just go. Like, there's a line where he says, Let us become raves. Like, he's outmanned, he's outgunned, and yeah, he just he keeps saying, our fight will be not clean, but it'll be pure, it'll be man-to-man, and it'll be free from dragons. And that's why he wants to do like this guerrilla warfare type. And I think in episode five, we get that that opening scene with Lord Tully and Roddy the Ruin. There, you know, and Roddy the Ruin is just like he has ants in his pants, meaning like he just wants to go out there and he's tired, he just wants to go on a fight. And this is a big, like a big uh switch, not not a switch of root, but a departure from the novel, which the winter wolves and and the river men were the ones who were doing the guerrilla tactics towards Kristen Cole and Gwen. So they kind of switched it up, which which it's fine. I'm I have no no no qualms with that. I just have qualms with seeing Kristen Cole like 10 times in these two episodes. And okay, let's let's get to it. Like you're in despair. He does have a nice little monologue about how he became he came from nothing, and he and you you people, you rich people, let's get let's get on with it. Let's let's get on with the battle over where everything unfolds, and it's just I don't know. Maybe I'm I'm being nitpicky.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

I just feel like no no, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

I agree if all redundant.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

I think Kristen is a bit, I don't want to say boring this season, but there's just not much going on with him. Uh and in the book, Gwen, who he's with, like he's already dead at this point. So I don't really understand kind of what they're doing with Kristen and Gwen. I think they're just trying to um, I guess, pinpoint or like plot where certain book plots are gonna be. Like they're gonna be like, okay, this is gonna happen in this episode, and they're just kind of fitting the time until and the show gets there, gets where they need to go, basically, and his scenes are more or less kind of just uh I don't want to say fitter, but just trying to show us, you know, with like the journey, I guess. And it is a bit repetitive, and I I guess we get um interesting moments like that speech we got at the end of episode five. But I found that to be kind of an uh interesting and uh interesting speech in the fact that in the way that he's lame, but he doesn't see it because he says something like they will remember me as the greatest warrior. I'm the he says I'm the Rem's greatest warrior. No one thinks of Kristen as the Rem's greatest warrior. Well, he's that just shows his ego.

SPEAKER_03 7:23

I will say that he is pretty badass.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

I mean, he he's good, but Damon exists, Tony. Everybody knows that.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

I mean, he def defeated Damon in a joust, but I guess that's not a real fight. No in the first episode of the show. But yeah, I mean, he could he could say I'm one of the greatest, but he just said, I'm the greatest.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

I am the greatest, and they'll sing songs about me. Uh who come on, no, and like that's no, you don't get remembered, Kristen. And um uh all this because he was rejected by a teenager. Oh, please. His fragile ego. Um I don't know if I mentioned this maybe in our episode three coverage. I don't think I did, but I think that's something we've been seeing in this season is a growing anti-dragon slash anti-Targarian um like mindset and kind of resentment towards the the Targaryens and their dragons. And you see that with so many characters in these two episodes, and Kristen is one of them. He um you know, he says something as well, like this isn't between these dragon riders in the green and black, I'm fighting for myself. And I mean, he can let we can let him think that he's fighting for himself, but at the end of the day, it's not, you know, he's he's not living for himself by doing all this. And I don't know, Kristen was one of the examples of the anti-Targarian mindset. He says a couple of lines, I think, in episode four, but unfortunately I can't remember it right now because it's been a couple of weeks, but he he does we do see his resentment now. Um it's a spreads to the red.

Aegon And Larys Tough Love

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

So with Aegon and Laris, I I thought I was gonna hate these two together because I, you know, I they're two Laris is so so hateable. But I don't know, for some reason this season, Laris is becoming a favorite because you know what I mean? Like he he's keeping it real, and the fact that you have Aegon who, despite being a terrible man, which I'm gonna play the audio, his stubborn arrogance and refusal to be humble, it's it like humanizes, it humanizes him. He's just like, I'm not gonna do this, you insolent ape. Like it's just he could have been killed so many times already, but I just find like he's sticking to his guns, he's not gonna do what these you know low mourn are are saying. But there's there's the scene that I want to put on, like he's complaining about how if only he had the advantages that Eamon had, if only he had the love and support uh from his mother that Aaman had, oh that one eye he can't, you know, referring to him. I could have been this king, and I and and and he hates the fact that the realm thinks he's dead and that Aemon killed him. Like he can't stand that. This is from episode five, and like we mentioned already, we're gonna be going back and forth. Laris has this takedown of Aegon, and I think it's so it's probably one of my favorite scenes of the sea of the season so far, because it's every word is precise, like missile to this guy's heart. Yeah, so and he just sits there and takes it. Let's hear Laris talk to Aegon and and put this boy, this boiled brat, into his uh rifle place.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

I must say, your grace, what all this time we've been together from the moment you were injured, in fact, flying drunk into a battle to which you were not invited. You've done nothing but whinge and self-flagellate with a tenacity I find is astonishing. You who had every advantage in life, you who had every chance to shine, firstborn son, prince of the realm, the finest tutors, the finest knights instructing you in the sword, the dragon so beautiful they named him after the sun itself. You could have risen to greatness, but instead you trampled your birthright in the mud. He lazed, reveling in mediocrity, fucking anything in sight, and drinking yourself into oblivion with your sycophantic friends. I'll tell you the truth. You are a terrible king. You are a terrible man.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

Okay, I mean that's just epic, and I I could hear that over and over again. Um so satisfying to hear that as well. And you could just see his face, and Tom Carney, I like I he's been like he's playing this horrible character, and and but he's playing it so great. This little takedown just reminds me of Tywin taking down, not talking down to Tyrion. I think it's season three when Tyrion is demanding Casterly Rock. But with that one's even worse because it's just vicious attacks towards Tyrion. I'm not saying it's comparable, but just reminds me of somebody just sitting there listening to somebody insult you. And uh this one, this one for for for us when we see Tyrion being attacked, it's painful because you know we love Tyrion and it's just time when it's such a horrible person. But this is like I have a smile on my face, and I was laughing when I was listening to it. Uh but anyway, yeah, I I I think um the this this scene was great, and like like I mentioned, Laris, who um I don't know what he's doing to his hair, but it looks great. I mean, some people were saying, like, where where is he getting these products? And because his hair wasn't like this in season two, and all of a sudden he has his his fluffy hair, and all of a sudden he looks like a model. But anyway, uh I know I did see that.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

I did see people say, Oh, wait, he got to glow up. And I was like, Okay, like I guess I can kind of see it. Um, but yeah, um, with this scene, it was very satisfying. And in episode four, we do see Aegon and um Laris interact with like a group of outlaws, and they're kind of like seeking refuge there. I like I will we will get to Sunfire at some point because that comes after they they see Sunfire. But um during that scene where Aegon is kind of forced to interact with that group of outlaws, and they were yelling at him, and he was yelling back, and then Aegon at the end was kind of forced to kiss the guy's feet. I was like, okay, this is like possibly Aegon at his point, you know, he's is he being humbled or is he filled with rage? And I think that this episode showed us kind of that transition from being full of rage but then also being angry but still being humbled and I guess kind of I don't say seeing the error of his voice because that's too much for Aegon, he would never get to that point. But I mean he's uh finally humbled and at his lowest, which is after uh Laris like scolds him basically and puts him in his place. So um yeah, I I just I thought that that was an interesting transition because we did you do see that like a glimmer of a glimpse, like a glimpse of that in Aegon in the last episode. Um and now we'll see where he goes from here. And what I think is interesting about Aegon as well, and we do see this with Aamon too, um, it's that uh he kind of needs this, he needs someone to push him. You know, we do like both brothers, they need someone to support them. They're very not self-reliant, you know, they're not independent people, they depend on someone to kind of uh I guess give them a boost. And uh Aegon needed to hear everything that he heard from Laris. And I think that um Laris's speech is definitely going to have an impact on Aegon uh because he kind of I guess wants to prove Laris wrong. And um, he was also weirdly made aware of his own potential, where I don't think anybody else saw that in him before when Laris says, You had this, you had this, you had this. I don't think that anyone kind of sat Aegon down and told him, Look, you have this and the like it actually kind of spoke to him like a child and said, You can do this, you should do this. No one taught him in that way. So this is the first time I think that he's being made aware of it all and of his own potential, and not his own potential that he's a good person, but that he had so much in his grasp and who he really is as king, not just, you know, because they even when he was king, they treated him like a puppet. He wasn't like a very good king that was independent. And I don't know, I I I hope my points come across. I think I kind of rambled and what I'm trying to say is that um he got the push that he needed from Laris in the tough love uh sort of way in this episode, and we'll see with Aim and when we get to him, the kind of soft love that he needed, I guess, to kind of get that push. So it's very similar but different in my eyes.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

In the defense of uh Aegon, believe it or not, I mean he was never prepared to be king in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. Like he was never made aware of what he had access to.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

Yeah, I mean he and he didn't even want it all the way until the coronation, like even when they were going to the dragon pit, he's like, Ugh, do I have to do this? Like, really? Like, mom, mom, I like complaining. And that's when Allison, oh, you're such an idiot. Like, you know what I mean? Like, he he saw it when he got the adulation from the crowd, like, oh my god, I'm I'm king now. Uh what am I gonna do here? Um, I will say that for some reason I figured that I don't know why I thought this, but like when he's getting picked on, he's getting the knife to his throat, he's kissing this, he's by by and then and they're in rook's rest, correct? That's where they're at. And is that that's Mayle's head that's on the oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

We're talking about that.

SPEAKER_03 17:43

Yeah, that's Maile's head. So which head would they I don't understand that didn't they parade a head into King's Landing? Right?

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Did we see the skull though of Mayle's in this episode? I think we did.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

I thought, oh man, that's somebody's head there. I will look into it, but um, yeah, for some you might have uh clocked up uh plot hole there.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

I didn't even realize that, I forgot that.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

Unless no, yeah, that okay, yeah, because this is remember the oh Aegon slaying the dragon.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

Oh well, okay.

Sunfyre in action?

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Uh so anyway, back to the point I was gonna make is that I honestly thought that freaking uh sunflower is gonna appear out of nowhere and like get me too and like fly away, and then he's gonna drakar us all these all these guys, and just and that's how they get you know to where they're gonna get.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Uh but I'm like maybe episode six or seven.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

Maybe. I mean, like I said, this is not nothing in the book, so we're not spoiling anything. Yeah, um, it was nice to see Sunfire, and then he's kind of saying, Oh, she looks dead to me. But he's like, she's breathing, and he would know about his dragon. I mean, he he and the guy's like they have a connection, yeah. They have that connection, so he knows what's going on. So that that's gonna be interesting to see. And then uh the guy we thought died in the gullet is alive. Remember Tyland? Yeah. He just appeared out of nowhere. Uh, and it was kind of funny. They were talking about going to uh across the narrow sea. Oh, we're gonna go to I don't know, everybody wants to go to Pentos, or it's just he disappeared. Uh so yeah, I mean, good to see that he's alive, I guess. But I wanted to see how did he survive that? How did he swim from that's pretty like we don't get to see how he survived anyway?

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah, and I mentioned that in this episode

Aemond At Harrenhal Gets Exposed

SPEAKER_01 19:34

we see Agon at his lowest, and I already mentioned him, so let's just move on to Eamon because he's also, I think, at his lowest in in uh this episode. He is, of course, in a classic Heron Hall fashion getting nightmares, is waking up in the middle of the night, is very fearful. There's a very interesting thing that he says in this episode. Um when he wakes in the middle of the night, he says, Um, she saw it, she said it'd die, that I'd ruin everything. Um, I'm only assuming he means Helena, but you seem to have another opinion or not. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

No, I'm saying, um, are we talking about episode five?

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

Since we're doing two episodes.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

We're doing two episodes, because we don't see him in episode four. In episode four, if I'm not mistaken, we just see Kristen Cole and Gwen show up at high tower, at Tyron Hall, and then kind of just bounce.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

And then we see Alice Rivers. That that that's the okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Eamon is Yeah, like there wasn't much going on there. Um, so in episode five, um, yeah, as I said, Amon had that vision where he says she saw what, she said I'd die, that's how drew and everything. I'm assuming he means Helena, because Helena also spoke of having a vision of him at the same time. And um Helena, we did hear her voice when Damon was in Heron Hall, so she could have like some psychic connection to that castle. We don't really know, but that's I'm assuming. Um, and then he mentions having nightmares of Aegon on fire, and um, I think Aegon is dragging him into the dark while Aegon is on fire. So I'm assuming this is his subconscious and internal anxiety manifesting through that um nightmare. Um, that Aegon knows of um the murder attempt and uh intention to kill him, you know, and he's just worried about the consequences that that that might have. Um and his last dream, I believe, was about Vegar, and that's what he actually says to Alice at the end, and he says, like, I I think she left me, and then or something like that. And Alice says she did leave, like Vagar did leave, and you know, it we see that in this episode as well when she burned the uh we see the camps on fire, I guess, the the the Team Black's camps. Um, so I think it's a very interesting moment for Eamon because we truly see him stripped of everything that makes him him and everything that he hides behind, so his family, his dragon, and even his eye patch actually, because we see a rare shot of him with the um of his sapphire eye. So he's just completely like bare in himself, and we see um, I guess for someone that seems so How do I put this? Um, power film. We see him at his most vulnerable in this episode, and he's even like seeking comfort in the hands of Addison. And you know, we see his weird, sorry, see this mommy issues manifest with her as well. And we've seen him chase that comfort in the past with uh uh you know other people in episode two. She's a woman we saw in this season as well. I think her name was like Celise or something like that. So sorry if I'm fine.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

Is that uh when um in season two when he's like naked in the in the how in the harem? Yeah, and he's like in the arm. Is that what you're talking about? Like he's in that beetle position with the woman like like uh carnaling him. And that and that's Alice is taking that role of and she knows what she's doing. Oh poor baby.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

She completely poor baby, come, come here.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

I'm gonna I'm gonna I'll take care of you.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

And and that's exactly what he needs, you know, and she knows that. So she's not like showing him any judgment or anything because she knows that she could get what she wants, Heron Hall, through him, since she's not getting that through um Rhenira and Damon. Arguably at this point, if she just chopped his head off and then shipped it off to to Rhenira, Rhenira might, I don't know, like I why why not try to do to do that? But I don't know. She doesn't she's on bad terms with Team Black, so it's understandable why she's doing this. And I thought it was just interesting that we see both brothers um completely codependent and very weak and at their dullest in this episode. So yeah, um, yeah, I thought that's amen for for for you. I don't know if you have any other comments on him.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Well, I'm just gonna say that the Alice River's it feels like um I've seen like three scenes with her welcoming somebody into Heron Hall, and it feels like the same. She's warning them about the castle. She does say something cool about the history of Heron Hall and how it was built, and and that is nice to hear, but it just feels like it feels redundant already. Okay. This is the third time, first with Eamon, then with Cole, and then these I think it was four times, like people trying to get into Heron Hall because the bounty of you know, Rennero put the bounty on Eamon's head, and it's like, okay, is it gonna pay off here eventually? There's a lot of time unaccounted for. So obviously, the showrunners and writers have to create drama, create these scenes, uh, because it feels like we either complain it's too fast or now it's too slow. There's no middle with this show. It's like, okay, you're going too fast. All these time jumps. And now it's like, all right, these last three episodes feel like one day or two days. What gets me um, I guess, nervous is that well, there's only three episodes left. Like, if there was 12-15 episode season, I'll be I'll be okay with this. I'm I'll be fine, completely fine with these slow burn, not really anything happening. You know, the you're playing chess very slowly, the timer's there. Like episode four and five are together, and it's like we're at a stop sign, and we're seeing the traffic go by and we can't go. It's like, okay, let's let's go already. We can't. I don't want to sit here in the stop sign. You know, you have to advance. Uh, and then I see like the previews for the next episode, and and it feels like more of the same. Like we're talking, we're not, unless they're leaving the battle. I won't say which battles because I don't want to spoil it, to the last episode, or like end of episode seven and all of episode eight. I enjoyed the episode. I won't give my rating yet, and I think it's well acted, but I just feel like we're getting two similar scenes in both the last two. I'm I've said that so many times already. Uh, so that's my biggest frustration is just the redundant scenes with Alice and um Cole. Those are the two biggest ones.

Ormund Hightower And Daring Ambitions

SPEAKER_03 25:54

But um, I wanted to talk about Orman in episode four. And my little I had a little pet peeve here. Uh I don't know if you felt it, but did you the way he was speaking in that opening scene to I forgot who it was, it felt contemporary, the the dialogue. It didn't sound Game of Thrones-ish to me.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

I saw someone make the same comment, but I personally nothing stood out to me, so maybe I was I just need to re-watch it, but I did see someone say that.

SPEAKER_03 26:25

Oh, okay. Yeah, maybe it's the tone of the way he delivered it. It felt like I was watching a show, like a contemporary show, and it wasn't the way Kristen Cole was speaking. And the more and more we see him, the more and more we see that he's actually a madman. Like we we thought that he was like level-headed. Oh, he's the level-headed hightower, and Darren seems like a good kid. And we get Allison who said, Oh, the best thing I did was to send him to Old Town. And he he wouldn't, I wanted a hightower child and not a Targaryen. Now we see that this poor Darren is well, well, well, you know what I mean? Like he's been like basically brainwashed his whole life uh with Ormin and calling him sire.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Yeah, God. You're right. What's that all about? Yeah, my God. That's a good point. Yeah, I I I kind of really like that Ormond is actually corrupt this way. Um, just because you know, when Addison says that, she's like, I want to send my son to be high, I want it to be good. That's her old belief speaking. But when she says that to her near, you can kind of see like something in her eye that says, she I think she has a line as well where she's like, but I don't know what his fate is. So she's kind of admitting that that was my old belief, but I don't know if I even believe that now, because of course Addison wasn't aware of like kind of the abuse that she experienced or like the uh I guess brainwashing that she herself experienced for the longest time, and she's only now being made aware of it after seeing the effects of how repeating that pattern uh resulted in like the craziness that are her two sons, which are Agan and Eamon. And sure she blames it on their Targaryen-ness, but I think she kind of knows that it's not entirely the Targaryeness. Like that was her admitting that, I guess, and directly to Renir on that scene. And I love that we can kind of see people that are mad, I guess, or insane in a way that isn't just a Targaryeness. Because it feels very, I guess, realistic the way Ormond is the way he is, basically, because he's clutching on to religion to kind of validate or as an excuse for why he is the way that he isn't. Yeah, is saying that, oh, you know, but we are the correct ones, they are not, and it's it's they're savage on there.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

Yeah, we're superior. His his uh supremacist monologue, I think, in episode five, which is how like they're savages and they they only the only reason why they're in power is because of those abominations of beasts, you know what I mean? So yeah, we we gotta see how it plays out, but he he could be a good villain, and James Norton is his name. He's just a really, really great actor, so he plays it really well. Yes, I mean he there's that one scene where he goes insane and then he goes in breeze because he gets he gets the Raven from Gwen saying that not that that Vagar is not coming to pr you know to to aid them, and then he's just like goes insane for like 10 seconds, and which is a funny little thing because right before he goes insane, you can see Daron tell like the cupbearer, like, get out of here, like go. Like he he knew he knew that he knew it was what's coming, he knew that he was gonna go berserk, but the way he just stopped and just took a breath and go, okay, I'm back. It was it was really good. Maybe uh he has corrupted Darren, but Darren does have a good side in him because we see him wanting to protect the um Tumbletonians, I guess. Yeah, whatever that's Tumbletonians, uh, because he said, No, they they attacked his you know his wife and blah blah blah blah blah. They have a right when they wanted to kill the guy, I forgot the guy's name, but he he was defending them. Like you could see that he has compassion towards people, you know. Orman's like, yeah, okay, whatever. I lied. This is the way we had to do it. He struck a high tower, so we that has to be remedied, and we have to take care of him. Uh but this is funny that he he despises the dragons, but in the that final scene is like you can see Tesereon burning the body, he's all he looks happy.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Yeah, yeah. Because it works if it's like he's happy with it if it's what he wants, you know, if it's what he approves of.

SPEAKER_03 30:46

Otherwise, and it is funny, like when we uh we saw the trailer and then we heard him say, My job is to put the rifle king in place, and we thought he was talking about his nephew, you know, Aegon, and then not realizing that his master plan is to have Daron be king. Uh he wants a high tower king, not a Targaryen king. And we get to see uh how did he make that coin so quick? How does how does that work? Daron's face. Uh, we were talking about a lot of a lot about episode five, so let's put the brakes on because in

Daemon And Rhaena With Sheepstealer

SPEAKER_03 31:23

episode four I want to talk about my favorite scene of that episode, um Tumbleton, which is um Damon and Raina. And and before we get to that, actually, Damon goes to the veil and he talks to Lady Jane. And I don't know who's the costume, we got a department. She looks amazing.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

I mean Raina or Lady Jane.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

Lady Jane.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

Incredible, incredible stuff. And you know, Damon wants gold, he's their broke, basically. And to think about 10,000 dragons is nothing, like coins. Because I remember in Game of Thrones, uh Littlefinger was like, oh yeah, the Crown is in debt, like 3 million, 6 million, or something like that. So 10,000 coins is nothing. So anyway, uh Caracas is all jumpy. I don't know, she's just out of sorts, and you knew that was coming, right? Like when you saw that, you knew that Carasis was gonna go and find Sheep Stealer.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:25

That that was something. Um, but what was your thoughts about that scene?

SPEAKER_01 32:30

I thought it was like well done. I don't really have a lot to say, so I I'll just pass the mic to you very soon. But um, I thought it was well done. I thought her outfit looked very Star Wars y. That was one of the thoughts that I had in mind, okay, especially in comparison to Lady Jean's um outfit, like just before that. So um, yeah, that that was like a random thought that came to mind. But um that's very interesting. You know, we we see or have seen that's something that they're gonna highlight this season is the growing tensions between Ronera and her two most trusted advisors, Damon and um and Missaria. And uh, I don't want to jump all the way to episode five, but I will say, since I'm on the topic, that's after episode five, we see them both hiding a secret from her, Missaria with the pregnancy of Helena and not her not doing anything about it, and Damon with this. And it just feels I don't know, um, like I understand why Damon did with heated, of course. You know, that's his daughter, and we never saw a scene of them together prior to this. So, and it's understandable, I guess, why he covered for he feels he owes he owes her because she was always like the forgotten child, and it makes sense to me. I know there are so many people that are against this, but to me it just makes sense. But I wonder what they're going to do because in the book, like that's pretty much it for Nettle's character, who's Raina's replacing. I don't want to spoil it, but if I'm not mistaken, she kind of just disappears as well in the same way Raina does just flies off. So I don't think that the show is gonna do that. I think that's to add, you know, they can't just do all this and then just have her disappear. I think what they might do is they're someone's gonna spot her flying off somewhere, and word's gonna come back to her near at some point this season, and that's gonna drive a wedge between her and Damon. She might stick to Missarium, so something's gonna happen with Missarian. I don't want to talk you know more about yeah, more about my predictions, but I'm just gonna say that I think it leaves us questioning what they're gonna do with her even more. But I think I I just think that that's what they're gonna do, and I I have no idea, honesty. That's just my comment on it. I have no comments on CNSF, it just leaves us more confused, I guess. But yeah. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Next week they uh episode they release some images, and you can see Raina. Oh, I didn't see that back at the veil. So we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:50

So is Lady Jane uh gonna alert Ranera about this? Uh but to for me, this episode was so great just because of the acting, and um I I because she ex she doesn't she's not asking for forgiveness, like she's she's explaining herself and she's accept she's gonna accept isolation. That that's like she doesn't want to face Ranera, and she has too much skill, obviously. Yeah, uh what makes this scene so effective, in my opinion, is Damon or Matt Smith's acting. Uh, because he's not impulsive, he's not the hot head Damon, he doesn't storm out, he's just not giving orders or demanding that she follows. He's just he's watching her, and for the first time, like he's like seeing his daughter, and he's seeing that like like he can't believe that she did this, and you can see his face, it's not of anger, like it's just of what am I gonna do? Like, I can't obviously kill you. I'm not gonna kill my own daughter, I'm not gonna bring you in. What do I have to do? The the scene, the silhouette of her behind the fire of Sheep Stealer is a great her leaving with Sheep Stealer and the corax of the standoff there. Once she pulled her thing, I said, Oh, there's nettles. Because we we thought about it, we said it, and she's leaving, and then I had no idea that I should have known better, but Damon looking down and she and the sheep herder, and I go, I should have known that he was gonna kill the guy and just say, 'Oh, yeah, we got this. This is the guy who wrote sheepsealer,' and him trying to convince Renera, look, you know, nobody's gonna be stupid enough. You cannot uh tame a wild dragon, let let sheepsealer be. And her saying that she wanted to see the the person face to face and like to bring closure. It was nice, but I also think that it has to come that this has to come back to to Ranera because then you have Bela. Bayla, that's her sister. And what is how is Bayla gonna react to her sister being her actions led to the death of Jace? Like, that could be another more tension, so it's just so much stuff that can be done with Raina's character. I don't see Rhanera killing Raina or doing so. Maybe she imprisons her. I don't know. Uh, by the time we get to that, you know, Ranera's gonna have so much stuff in her head and thinking about what am I gonna do with this, like all the inner workings of just the red key, not even thinking about the the people of King's Landing, the other people like she she's gonna be like her mind is gonna explode for all the responsibilities she has to worry about. That yeah, thinking about race, like it's just gonna maybe that's what the boiling point that's gonna happen for her,

Ulf's demands

SPEAKER_03 37:37

you know. And then you have people. Let me just get this out of the way. Uh, you have like people like demanding, not demanding, but wanting an audience with her, like olf and Hugh, and say he was like, Yes, yes, well, I get a house, I'll I'll get you the house. And he wants to go to Tumbleton because that's where his wife is at, because Ulf was gonna be there, and you saw that a mile away. It was nice to see Vermer Thor uh flying with with Hugh, but then you have Olf come, and there's a scene of Olf going back to his bar or his tavern, which is so silly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you become rich, not even rich, when you become a celebrity, do not go back to your old stomping grounds because the first thing that happens, oh you know, everybody thinks you're a lord, no, you're a you're a knight, you have a dragon, you must be rich.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Yeah, you know, and they're gonna like the people there aren't his friends.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

No, no, so then you have the guy say, Oh, drinks, and then all of a sudden it's drinks for everybody. So yeah, uh what he him yeah, him demanding him going to see Renera and going, Well, um here's a couple things I want, and it's just for his friends, because he probably he's in so much debt to these people, and she's like, What? Like, you know, you can't go there anymore, like you belong to me, kind of, and it felt a little the way she said it felt very uh dismissive.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

Uh yeah, I I think maybe like it could have come across better, but um I mean she's right, he's completely right.

SPEAKER_03 39:11

It's nice to have this character, even though he annoys me. And you know, George is so good, you know George was gonna give this type of person a dragon. You know, like he's for the fun of it, just to see. He's you know, he's gonna have somebody who has no education, is basically a drunk. Let's give him one of the most powerful weapons in in the world. So back in season

Helaena Pregnant

SPEAKER_03 39:37

two, we got the episode Son for a son, and we both talked about it, and we talked both talked about how they're gonna rectify or replace this kid that in the book, well, Halena has three children. The youngest named Maylor was a son, and she had to choose between one of the three, and she she picked Maylor, and then she ended up killing, they ended up killing Jaharris, and Maylor was there. You know, he survived, and pretty much they told him, You're gonna live knowing the fact that your mother chose you. And Helena went into a depression, and we were thinking, okay, so how is this gonna work? Maybe Helena will just get pregnant. I think we mentioned it earlier this season or last season, they'll they'll figure it out. So I don't understand. Here's my question to you are they just rectifying this or be like, okay, let's have another kid here, or was this the plan all along? Why not just have her have the three kids in the first place from the beginning?

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Tony, I wish I knew. I wish I knew because I think um a part of me is worried and kind of believes that it might be just like a fix it in a way, like a quick Yeah, put a band a Yeah, put a band-aid on it, basically. Yeah, like we don't they don't know what else to do. So I it does come across that way because as you said, why not just include him in the background? Same thing with Daron, like they would just it feels weird when you just add the character and be like, yeah, he was there all along, or he just is gonna come in this other way, that doesn't make any sense. So I have a prediction as to what they're doing and and how they're gonna do it, which is gonna be a spoiler, so I won't talk about stuff I'll talk to you about after finish recording, or we'll do a spoiler episode or a spoiler section one day, but it just does I don't know why they, as you said, they didn't just include it in the first place. Because funnily enough, this is the mistake that not the mistake, the omission that George was so hung up about in his um blog post when he called out the creator for creators of House the Dragon, he called it Toxic Butterflies. And I think we mentioned this in our coverage of episode three or four. I I three or not not four, three, where there's the book that uh Helena has and it's a butterfly, and we said, Oh, that's a mention, that's a reference to George's blog of toxic butterflies, because it was the toxic butterflies of Noth and stuff. But in that blog post, he was saying that omitting Mador is going to like set off a butterfly um butterfly effect that would like mess up the timeline. And they kind of didn't admit that, the showrunners last season. But then now suddenly them including Mador or like trying to like doing the storyline feels like they're admitting that George was right. Again, I I I think I know what they're going to do. And I guess I kind of see it and why they're gonna do it, but I actually you know what?

SPEAKER_03 42:36

Let's um okay, I'm gonna put

Helaena spolier chat

SPEAKER_03 42:38

a timestamp on this episode, and we're gonna talk about spoilers for one minute because we have to talk about it. Um so spoiler chat starting in 3-2-1. Okay. So Helena, when Maylor is picked and they kill Jaharis, Helena goes into this deep, deep depression. She's in her room, she doesn't come out. Um what happens is one of the guards takes Maylor to like have him escape King's Landing. They find him, he dies, and then Helena kills herself by jumping off the building, which is so weird because she's like, I need to see the moon. And then she's like next next to the window, and we're like, My god, what are we doing here? What are we doing? Uh are she gonna do a talmon right now?

SPEAKER_01 43:30

So and and Alison says the window will do. I need uh oh, I just felt so uh but also, and I don't think that's what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

I think what's gonna happen is one, she's not even showing, right? She's maybe three months pregnant, four months pregnant. So that means there's another five months before she gives birth to this child. I I don't think Renera's in in queen for that long in the in the novel. Like it's her her reign is so short. Uh so they will. Have to expedite the pregnancy, but oh, she's giving birth. If it's a male, even it doesn't even matter, right? It's what's gonna happen is they might just kill the child or take the child from her, and then what's gonna happen is that in this episode, she's with Jahara and she's telling him, Don't touch that. That's the leaves of nightshade. It's very poisonous, it's very poisonous, yes, and that is foreshadowing. And if this kid passes away or something happens to Jahara, she's gonna eat that or she's gonna drink that tea with the nightshade, and that's how the way she's gonna kill herself. I don't I don't think she'll jump on the yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

No, I kind of like semi-agree with you. Um, I think that it is going to happen through the berries because of the foreshadowing in this episode. Um, but I think that the window could either be like just for us, like just for us book readers, or it could be that like it's gonna sound bizarre, but like she eats it and then falls off, you know, like it still plays a role. Maybe, but it feels a bit weird and cartoony, but it could happen. Um, but the thing is, I don't know if you remember this Sony in in the trailers. We were talking about it. There's a scene where Helena's giving birth.

SPEAKER_03 45:15

Oh, we we didn't realize that we thought it was something different or a different thing.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Yeah, we uh we were like, Helena's pregnant, everybody pregnant. Well, so I think that we actually are going to see her deliver the baby. I don't know how, or if it's just gonna be a vision, I don't know, but I think we might see her deliver it and then have them like kind of take the baby away, or the baby dies in childbirth, and then Helena kills herself with the berries.

SPEAKER_03 45:41

Or maybe yeah, I mean, or or she has or she's um what is it called? The baby comes too soon, it's premature. And yeah, oh yeah, that's a good that's a good uh uh and that's she becomes depressed. Okay, so all

End of spoilers/Alicent's plan B

SPEAKER_03 45:55

right. Spoiler is done. Um okay, so we have uh the Grand Maester comes with the T or the slash plan B, and Allison wants her to drink it. She is adamant, she does not want to drink it. That's mine, it's mine the way she says it. It's you know, basically my baby. And Allison is giving her prudent advice. Like, look, that's a challenge for Joffrey, even when she says Joffrey, uh, or from Renera herself, like that we can't have that as a male, especially if it's a male. And she doesn't want to do it, and that as she sticks to her guns, and then we get the the the scenes with Masaria and Allison felt like okay, is Masaria falling for that so easily? But just the way that Alison was talking to Masaria and kind of convincing her, oh you know, one day Ranera's gonna turn basically saying Rhanera's not your friend, she's gonna turn on you and a dime. We'll see. You know, we can see it a mile away. We can see that Masaria is gonna do something that's uh against Ranera and Damon. And because you know, they have that contention, and I think Allison um again, there's a lot of Allison in the show, which I don't mind, but it just feels like we're getting a lot of scenes with her. But she also is trying to convince she wants to leave, and she's trying to convince Helena to leave Jahara. Like we can't leave that. She's gonna she's gonna slow our progress. We can't leave with her. I like how she says, you know, Renera will not do her any harm. Uh but then at the end, she convinces her. Uh is she lying to her? They say, Oh, Jahara's gonna meet us there. I think she was lying to her.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

I think she was. I if I'm not mistaken, she kind of clocks it and calls out Alice when when she when when they could try to escape, she's like, Where's Jahara? And then and Alison's like, oh, I don't know what she said, but something like that. Like she kind of brushes it under the rug or something. And yeah, I I yeah, I definitely think that Jahera's gonna be just left alone. I think Alice she cares about her children or Helena, but not her grandchildren.

SPEAKER_03 47:58

Yeah, it's just like, yeah, we'll just leave her, she'll be fine here. Yeah, let's talk about

Rhaenyra keeping it together

SPEAKER_03 48:03

Renera in these two episodes. It feels like, you know, I I feel for her. She's trying to do her best to be the best queen she can be, ruler. And it seems like every time she takes two steps forward, she has to take three steps back. And either the rats or the the the gold, and now she has to worry about gold cloaks being killed. But the one thing I have a question about these murders, you know, with her getting King's Landing so easily with no troops, it's just her and Damon flying in there, and all of a sudden they they can take control of King's Landing. And in the novel, you have all the Valerian fleet come with the soldiers and they kind of take care of business. Is that with without the the Valerian troops, they couldn't round up all those high tower sh soldiers. You know what I mean? So they still have high tower soldiers running around. And you know, and those are the guys who are, you know, basically are are the spies or the double agents, double agents. And we see the guy from episode one. I think you shared it on your story, that it's the guy who's sending the the ravens to to hide the ormen.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

Yeah, the guy from episode two who was like at the top of the keep, kind of protecting it like a the the guard of uh yeah, yeah, with the scorpion. He's back part of the guard of the of the of the keep. Like he's I don't know, would he be considered a king's guard? I guess maybe I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

Uh uh no, I don't know. I don't think so. Just a soldier.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

He's just the gear, he's a soldier, yeah. So he's there. This is wearing green, so I was like, I don't know, maybe if that's the new soldier. And now he's the spy, he's the guy that sends the letter to Ormond. Yeah, so it feels like an oversight.

SPEAKER_03 49:47

It feels like something that Damon would have done. Like, okay, we need to round up every single high tower soldier and get rid of them. Yeah, that's it. We we can't have the we can't have anybody there, and and now she has to deal with that. Her thinking is I get to sit on the throne and I get to roll. Now she has to figure out like it's not outside force forces that are gonna get her, it's the people or the inside, like the treachery within is what's gonna get her, and then she has to deal with all this, and she has to deal with these people in the small council. And I and I the small council meetings are kind of funny because you have Mandalori and Sabbath the fray there, and he's like, Yeah, yeah, by the way, that's the this, and that's the he's like doing a play-by-play of everybody, everybody who's talking, oh well, that's um that's this, and that's and she's like, Oh, okay, like giving her giving her the tea or the gossip, which is funny.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I knew you were gonna comment on that.

SPEAKER_03 50:43

Yeah, I thought it was a funny little scene because he's just kind of like, Yeah, that's uh I think I actually calls Masaria the whore. Yeah, he did say that.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

Uh was it's him or was it Sabbath?

SPEAKER_03 50:55

No, no, no. It was it was I don't think she says a word, and then she does uh when they leave and uh Ranera follows Damon and she goes, Is this how it goes? Is this what this is all about? These meetings, so that was kind of funny. Uh oh,

Corly dismisses his queen

SPEAKER_03 51:12

I forgot to mention that in episode four we had Ranera ask for Corlus. She says she wants to speak with him. And Corlus is like, No, I don't need to go. I don't I don't need to talk, you know, whatever, whatever. You go instead. And Alan's like, um, me? Like, I can't go over there. And I and I think it's a big F you to Ranera, like, okay, you're not gonna you're not gonna legit legitimize my sons. So now I'm gonna have I'm gonna send these quote bastards to your council meeting and they're gonna speak for me.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

And you you have to listen to them.

SPEAKER_03 51:47

Yeah. You have to you have to listen to the counsel of these quote illegitimate children because you don't want to legitimize them. So I thought that was a big, you know. I I I can't wait to see them talk face to face again because I you know he he's going out to um take care of the triarchy who are just when they're running rap.

SPEAKER_01 52:07

Like the remaining triarchy, which is kind of like it's it's a lame thing for him to do, but I understand uh I think it was uh Alan who said something like he just let him go. He needs you know, he he feels down, he needs a win, he needs to be this element. Yeah, so like just let him go. So I understand, like it was a good explanation, I you know, for for people that wanted it, like us, the viewers, but I mean, step up, man.

SPEAKER_03 52:37

You know, it's not yeah, because Renero's like, oh, he could have sent anybody to do that. Yeah, it's not that's not worthy of him, of his position. He's the hand of the king, the queen. Yeah, he shouldn't be out there. Uh

Baela & Addam

SPEAKER_03 52:50

actually, this um I completely forgot because this is the beginning, episode five is um Adam Hall and uh Bela, they come back, they're trying to find Vega, they can't find her. Adam is all Lady Bela needs to rest and she needs to eat. He's so worried about her, you know what I mean? And she's like, No, I don't have to do anything. Let's go right now. The the the way they were acting together is like, is this gonna be a romance here? I mean, don't they know they're like cousins or whatever they are? Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:21

I mean, uh he's her uncle, isn't she? Isn't he? He is her uncle, her half uncle.

SPEAKER_03 53:29

Yeah, half uncle. But that doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

For them, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:34

Well, I don't know if the Valerians do that. Oh, they do that, right? Incest?

SPEAKER_01 53:38

I guess, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:39

Yeah, so anyway.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

Yeah, we said that's what's funny. Yeah, I guess I guess they do.

SPEAKER_03 53:43

It's gonna be interesting to see what they do with these two characters because this is completely different. A big change if if they go down this road. Um, I mean, they'll be a good-looking couple, I guess. Yeah, but she does mention, like, in this episode, is that I would have been queen, you know, like talking about you know Jace's death. Um, but so we talked about

Show's insistence to show SA

SPEAKER_03 54:08

episode two and three, and we were disappointed that we kept seeing these scenes with women being assaulted. Disappointing to see that because we had both writer and director be women. You know, we kept saying, Okay, why do we need to see this? Why is so then we get this episode, episode five, where we have two people, actually, episode four, we have Hugh Hammer's wife, Cat, almost assaulted by well, actually, she was by the high tower soldier, and then in episode five, we have Alice Rivers, and then we get Amon come out to defend her, and which is a okay. I mean, I I don't even know what to say anymore. If you have anything to say, I I think we could have gotten we could have gone Aemon fight scene without that.

SPEAKER_01 54:59

Yeah, definitely. And it wasn't just those two scenes when um Missaria figures out like she figures out that someone drank moon tea, she goes to visit Telena and Alison, and then um she asks uh you know uh what's her name? Alison says, like, oh, this is mine. Uh and then she says, Oh, like did you take a lover or something like that? And Missaria asks her, who was it, like a lord or someone that's not a lord? Um, and then Alison says, Oh, you know, as well as like everyone, the like indignities that women face. So is she implying that like she was assaulted and she's lying about it? Because she was in a in a consenting relationship with Kristen Cole. She wanted like that's what we were showing. So I I'm so shocked that that line was included because why? W why any of it? Like, and especially that line I felt was horrible because uh I mean Anna was you know in a marriage that she wasn't really consenting to. She wasn't a forest arranged marriage, and she didn't, you know, uh she was a child, so all of what's went down with the vessel can be considered assault and makes sense. But of her to her uh just to have her lie about something that didn't exist just why why?

SPEAKER_03 56:15

I mean, I guess she's trying to protect Helena.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

She doesn't want to Yeah, I understand, but it could have been done in in you know in a different way. There was no need for that nine, the scene would have worked just as just as well without it. Yeah, just that would have worked fine. So I I am disappointed that we're getting these um I don't see these issues, but that we're seeing this in episodes that are directed by women. And I guess you could make the argument that Alison's you know her high toweredness is that she's kind of hypocritical, you know, she's like religious, but like she does you know, she had no hair and yada yada yada. She like they they have that um hypocrisy within them, but at the same time uh sh we've seen care a character arc with that, we've seen her become a kind of like a I don't say a better person, but we've seen her I guess grow. That's what I'm trying to say. We've seen her grow and the new Anna sentence, I guess, uh wouldn't do this. I understand she's saving herself, she's saving uh her daughter, but the scene could have worked without it. Why?

Targaryens praying

SPEAKER_03 57:20

Uh speaking of religion, uh let's go to well, I think my maybe my favorite scene is Renera in the set, kneeling and kind of praying. And because she there's a great conversation she has with um the Grand Maester Orwell saying that the high set then refuses to anoint me. And he says, Do you need it? You have your dragons, you have the power, you sit on the throne, and she says, Do you think they are in cahoots together? And and it and for a person looking out and to in, I mean, a person looking outside that will look that way, you know, the high towers, and they really are into their their religion there. Oral says, No, they're not gonna do that, they're not gonna have allegiance with the house. Maybe that's the reason she felt compelled to go pray. Maybe they'll people say, Oh, by the way, the queen was at the set. Because there's people just milling around. And there's no like it's it's funny, there's like no queen's guard anywhere. It's just like Damon. Like anybody can go out and do something to her. But the fact that you have Damon's like his face is like, What are you doing? What are you doing here? Uh, and the having that whole conversation mostly in high valerian is so good. Like, uh, I can I wish one day we could have a whole episode of just high valerian. That'd be pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Oh, that would be cool. That'd be cool.

SPEAKER_03 58:56

Despite ruling Westeros for over a century, they haven't stopped being Valerian, you know. They they keep that cultural identity alive and speaking to each other in that way. But to see them see her turn to prayer, I'll just laugh because you could tell it tells you everything about how dire the situation is. Like, uh, what else can I do? I guess I can pray and see if you know something happens or something good has to happen to me sitting in this throne. Like, please help me. I've been I've been queen for whatever long, and I I haven't been able to relax or nothing good has happened.

SPEAKER_01 59:40

I I don't like saying it in this way, but it's kind of the only phrase that came to mind when I was thinking about it and her in this scene. But I guess all

Visery's kids whine a lot

SPEAKER_01 59:48

of Viserys' kids are kind of in a I guess a complaining mood in in this episode. You know what I mean? That what's that that's what we see with Reneira, Aegon, Amen, um, not Darren, because Darren, you know, it's just like off doing his own thing, but they're all very frustrated and kind of in a why is this happening to me? Why did this happen to me mindset, all of them, which is a fun uh which I found to be very interesting, like link between them, you know, the the siblings. Uh Renera is saying, like, why is my my brain so hard when the seconds I stepped onto the crown? And you know, Aegon is saying, like, oh my whole life was hard because everybody, you know, liked Eamon for for speaking highway, and I was always falling behind, and then Eamon is always saying, like, you know, I was the one that they weren't paying attention to, and I was, you know, I I I was this and that, and I I have no eye. And I just like to say that, but something like that. But it was a funny scene, and like when you talked about it, you really highlighted that like that how funny it is and how good how good of a scene it is. So uh yeah, I also think that's also like more than the comedic aspect, I think it was just Damon being a good partner and being there for her. Yeah, and I think it also shows the the the difference in the support that each sibling gets. So you you have you know Eamon with his kind of uh mommy issues support that he needs and gets, and then you have Eamon with his tough love uh you know support that he gets and needs as well. Aegon, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:10

Oh, they said Aemon and Eamon. No, never mind, sorry. Oh, sorry, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

Second one was Aegon, and then you have Renero who gets I you know, like funny enough, saying this for Damon, but the most rational, best one among them, you know, who's advising her correctly, saying the right words, being a good partner for her. And yeah, it appreciates it that so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:30

I I also feel that them speaking in High Valerian just feels authentic. It's not like a gimmick. It feels so real. That's that's her secret language. Like, this is how we're gonna talk. Nobody's gonna know what we're saying. That's what makes it if they just spoke in English the whole time, it's still be a good scene, but I don't know, the high valerian just elevates it for me. Oh, let's talk about that

EP 5 ending scene

SPEAKER_03 1:01:54

last scene with the gold cloaks. You feel like at that that end scene felt like a horror movie. I see you like what's this ominous music coming, and it's not shocking because it's bloody, it's shocking, it feels like a theatrical horror scene.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:11

Yeah, you know, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:12

Someone is sending a message, and the messages, the old rules don't matter anymore. You know, this is like the turning point of who's gonna happen. And the funniest thing I saw is the image for next episode is Damon disguised.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:27

Amund is in disguise?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:28

He's disguised as a gold cloak. He has his hair and tucked into the the helmet, and he's gonna go and find out who's doing this deed against his his Damon's one of those I gotta do everything myself. I gotta find this guy. So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

That that last scene, that last shot was kind of horrifying. I like the way that you described it as something almost theatrical. And actually, I didn't get any spoilers for the episode except that last shot, and I just went, wait, what is this? This looks very, very scary. Um and it didn't like crawl my expectations of the episode whatsoever, but it freaked me off because I just said, How are we gonna get there? What's gonna happen? And then obviously it makes sense and everything, but yeah, it's uh it's a memorable shot for sure, and you know, just solidifies that. I don't know if we mentioned this, that it was the Greens that did all of this, you know, the the team Greens and and Ormond and and and Co. who have been doing this to kind of weaken uh Renero's rule because now uh the keep is defenseless. There's no there are no troops, there are no men there to defend the castle. They're defenseless, they only they have dragons, sure, but they could be attacked by an army at any moment, and it's uh brutally clever tactic, and I hate that they did that.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:44

But also, I want to talk talk about and I and I we forgot to mention is that episode four, you had the writings on the wall, you know, the queen of bastards. Oh, right, queen of bastards. Whoever wrote that, the font was really nice. If it felt like like very modern, yeah, it felt modern, like that's perfectly written. Also, in episode four in the beginning, for some reason, like the high tower soldiers are moving into Tumbleton, and they have very modern-looking bags. I that threw me off. Did you see that? Like they're booked, like they're it looked like something you can buy now. Like again, that's just an epic. Okay, Renera reacts to the descent with you know the writings on the wall. She goes to Sir Luthor and say, Hey, you need to find out who's doing this and and get, you know. But to Sir Luthor, those words of find out who's doing it is let's get all these people and take care of them. And they they kind of go overboard and and start basically maybe killing people. Damon says, Look, we can't go off the rails because somebody wrote something on the wall. And then the one thing that you mentioned, because uh, I think the last episode is that oh, they didn't mention the tax because I remember in the card they talk about you know they raise taxes on the people, and then you have Mandaly just quietly say, Nobody listens to him though. He goes, Anybody thought about a tax? And those you know, those people of King's Landing, they're very fickle. Like they are if they're fed, they're oh the queen, we love you. Once the roof runs out and they see the gold clothes just going wild, they're gonna turn, right?

Ratings, Final Thoughts And Next Week

SPEAKER_03 1:05:27

Before we go give our rating, any last words about episodes four and five?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

Um, I thought that they were um decent episodes. I thought that, you know, I've seen, I guess, bad reviews or criticisms of both online. People were saying that, you know, we didn't get much in these episodes, and I understand. Um, maybe I thought episode four was uh stronger than episode five, but yeah, I I did expect more from episode five, I guess, in a little bit just because the pacing was a bit off. It felt like it wasn't going to end in a way, just because it just kept going on on. And they kept cutting, cutting, cutting. So it just felt a bit slow-paced and uh slightly uh long. So I understand the criticisms for that more. But I thought I think in hope, I guess, that they set in place interesting, um like they set their the characters in interesting places, and now we get to see where they move. So especially for episode four, you know. So I'm very curious what's going to happen with with uh Helena's pregnancy first and foremost with Reina. Um, because you know, you said now that there's a sit of her in the veil for the next episode, and I really don't know what they're gonna do with her. Yeah, uh Damon and Renera hoping that stays strong despite everything and despite the secrets. The Daron thing is like mostly a show's invention, the them plotting to put him on the throne. So again, curious to see where that goes. Um, episode five might be the weakest of the season so far, and I hope next week isn't um like is a bit stronger.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:56

Um, I the one criticism I have, I've mentioned that we have a couple storylines that are idling. There are moments where you're clearly waiting for the next domino to fall, but instead of being invested in the scene that's happening right now, uh but it's not enough to hurt the episodes overall. Like right now, episode four is at 7.6 on IMDB, and episode five is seven point nine, which I thought it was gonna be reversed. Um and I think uh you just said you think episode five is the weakest. I think I prefer episode five to four.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:34

So like I have episode well actually let's just rate episode four first.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:40

Episode four had given um eight point three. I don't I can't keep track of what I ranked everything, so I'm just gonna say eight point two is what I'm eight point three is what I'm well I think you you you rated uh Renera's triumph eight point three or like it was pretty what yeah was it that low?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:07

Maybe it's an eight point eight. I don't know. Uh we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:11

I don't know, because Tony, you know what? I only rank when I talk to you. When I'm assisting and watching the episode, I don't keep track. I I just enjoy it. So I need to write down what I say and get like my rating as soon as I finish watching the episode. So I'll try to do that next time.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:26

I'm gonna do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:27

But for now, yeah, episode five was my least favorite. I liked episode four, I thought was decent. And I liked Rainier's Triumph. And yeah, I like episode one, two, and three. More than then four and then five. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:38

Okay, so what's five? What do you have five at?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:42

I guess like let me give it to seven point five.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:47

So okay, okay. I'm gonna give episode four seven point five, and I'm gonna do um episode I don't want to give episode five an eight, because I don't think it's an eight. Uh IMDB has it at 7.9. I don't want to copy that, so I'll just do 7.8. Like I said, it's well acted, beautiful, you know, it's beautiful to look at. But I think we're just right now we're idling in the car waiting for something to for the episodes to go. And hopefully uh next episode we we get more of a um a outline of what's really gonna happen or something happens. I know these it it feels like it's building up to to something, but okay, we can't be building up for four episodes. It has to has to happen, but okay, so uh we're gonna for our next episode we'll have it in our regular schedule. Um, we're back and it's going to be uh three more episodes. That's crazy. That we're already almost done.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:46

Yep, that's all from us um on this week and or this episode of Dancing with Dragons. We hope you enjoyed our dual episode coverage of season three, episodes four and five of House of the Dragon. We'll be back next week, as Tony said, discussing episode six of the show, and we're very excited to see where the show takes us and our characters. Until then, be sure to follow us on Instagram at dancing with underscore dragons for updates on the show and on the podcast. And of course, be sure to add, listen, and download our episodes on your preferred listening platforms. And if you get the chance, please give us a rating interview as well. We'd really appreciate it, and thank you guys so much for listening.