EP 023 Carolyn Pearson Safe Travels, Bold Tales: Inclusive Travel Risk Unravelled

Bio:

Carolyn is the CEO and founder of maiden-voyagage.com. Carolyn launched Maiden Voyage in 2008 after leading technology teams and travelling extensively for companies such as the BBC, ITV, easyJet and Sony Music.  She combined her tech and entrepreneurial skills, coupled with her experience as a solo woman traveller to create a company that is now recognised as one of the world leaders in inclusive traveller safety. Maiden Voyage provides education and training services for companies sending their employees on business travel. Carolyn has become a well-known figure in the security industry, having spent a  number of years on the Global Business Travel Association Risk Committee and is regularly featured in the press and conference agendas worldwide. She was recently received the prestigious Chairs Award at The Business Travel Magazine People’s Awards for trail blazing new ways of working in DE&I across the business travel sector.

Linked In
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cpearson/

Articles
https://www.linkedin.com/company/global-business-travel-association/?lipi=urn%3Ali%3Apage%3Ad_flagship3_detail_base%3BOU8Z1ezgRXCSOmwTslStMA%3D%3D

https://www.businesstravelnews.com/Management/Women-Business-Travelers-Personal-Safety-Is-Mission-Critical

https://skift-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/skift.com/2023/06/02/female-business-travelers-still-face-safety-concerns/amp/

Handles
Website  https://www.maiden-voyage.com/ 
Me  https://www.linkedin.com/in/cpearson/
Women's business travel community  https://www.maiden-voyage.com/community/ 

Security Circle ⭕️  is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

Yoyo 0:15

Hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. If poe is the International Foundation for Protection Officers and we are dedicated to providing meaningful education and certification for all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference to our members' mental health and wellbeing. With me today is a trailblazer in the travel risk business. Her name is Carolyn Pearson, and some of you may already know her. She calls herself a seasoned C E o. I'm gonna ask exactly what seasoned means. she's an entrepreneur, she's an innovator, she's a speaker, and she's also sitting on charity boards as a charity board trustee. She's obsessed with inclusive travel safety. Having founded Madam voyage.com in 2008, she's an entrepreneurial digital technology leader, having led tech and digital strategy for exciting media and travel companies, which include K L M B, BBC I T V, EasyJet, and Sony Music. What a. Background. Karen Pearson. How are you doing? Thanks for joining us today. Hi, Yolanda. Fantastic. Really great to be here. Thank you. Really the pleasure is all mine because I know you're busy. You are a seasoned ceo. O what does seasoned mean? By the way, you're not giving away any age though. I think it means that I've had a good basting, basically having a good basting. You, claim to be an obsessed, inclusive travel safety person. So tell us where did this journey start for. well the journey started from me when I was working for ITV and I was sent on a tech reque to look at the rights management system in Hollywood. And I had traveled a lot by myself. Thought how fantastic it would be to take the weekend prior to my trip and go to. I guess Santa Monica and get an outfit for the ELE party that was coming up and just have a really sort of cosmopolitan weekend. But actually traveling as a business traveler is different to traveling as a backpacker, isn't it? Because you're, you may be stuck in a stuffy business hotel. There's nobody around at the weekend, or you're not in a nice area necessarily, and I was just really bored and fed up and wanted to fix that by creating a network to connect women business. So a network, what was its purpose, So its purpose really was for women who were traveling. They had a trip coming up to register, put their travel dates and then they could search for other women traveling to the same city so that they could meet and have dinner or just go out, do some nice things together and, and just, I guess, make the world a smaller place by connecting and meeting with other travel. Crazy women. Yeah, travel crazy women. So, so traveling for work as a woman we know is less safe than traveling as a man, and there are a number of different impact factors, aren't they, in relation to that? Uh, let's talk about why 71% of female respondents in a recent global survey, said that traveling for work as a woman was less safe than traveling as. I think it's a number of reasons. The obvious is the levels of misogyny that we've got in society. There's a sexual harassment, there's say catcalling. There's physical sexual assaults. Even, even in the uk we're seeing a rise in the epidemic of violence against women and girls. And, we work with people who have suffered really horrific incidents such as, hotel rapes and and so on. But it's more than that, I think. Around, say pregnancy, somebody who may be traveling to a Zika area. We're seeing more menopausal women in the workforce and suddenly that added anxiety and all the things that come with menopausal also impact the way that we can perform on our business trips, and therefore we may not make the best decisions. With regards to our personal safety, there's all manner of things. Even today when things are becoming more open in the Middle East, there are still sort of cultural differences, still dangerous to report a sexual assault in some. And just things like the dress code, and how women are still received and perceived, not just here in the UK but outside as well. And this came up, didn't it, with Qatar, recently, where, the lgbtq plus community came under quite a lot of pressure to not go looking too gay. Do you know what I mean? I let's face it, that's what it came down to. Come and watch football come and be in our country. Come and participate, but just don't look gay. I mean, that, that was quite difficult and challenging and some people had a very difficult experience, didn't. They did. And actually, a number of organizations including Stonewalls, spoke out. They had journalists who sort of defected from, the Middle East, on, on that call. Talking about their experiences and what they had witnessed from friends and family. But it was taken down quite quickly. There was a real. I guess, polarization of people who wanted to just sort of bury that and, commercialized the football, but also people who wanted to speak out and use it as a platform to really gain awareness as we saw from the comedian. Oh, what was his name? Do you think it was Joely? Joely, yeah. I mean, look, lots of people spoke out, didn't they? So. But in a sense, what Qatar did with this melay of controversy was highlight that travel risk is present. Because, let's face it, the values that we have and adore in this country aren't values that we see everywhere else around the world. Are they? No they're not. and I guess it's difficult for us as an organization because we have people who are quite dogmatic about they're going to go to another country and they're going to behave or conduct themselves in a way that they do at home. And actually they're putting themselves at danger. They're putting their colleagues in danger as well. And we can't change the world by going there and making a protest, which is based on our culture and our ways of living. And our. Let's talk about some of the key differences then for men and women when traveling. What have you experienced? So, I think there was a piece of research which came out by the Global Business Travel Association a few years ago, and I think there 83% of women said that they'd experienced one or more safety related concerns, or I. When traveling on business what that resulted in was their performance declined when they were away traveling on business, but also what they did in their spare time changed as well. So what we found is that women would sit in their hotel rooms, they'd have room service, they wouldn't go out, they wouldn't get a break. And therefore the mental health was actually impacted because they weren't getting that break. Whereas I think, I was speaking to a man the other day and he said his wife said to him, the day that I don't have to walk home at night with my house, keys in my hand to protect myself will be a good day. And men, even now say to me, God, I wouldn't even think of doing some of those things that women tell me that they do on a daily. Yeah, and we've been brought up haven't we, as young girls to condition the way we behave. Certainly, from very young ages around where we go and who with, and how late and what we're wearing, and not revealing too much skin and wearing sensible shoes, we come from the same place there. But I can see what you mean when you say that women are sort of keeping themselves to themselves in their, in their hotel rooms. that's isolating, isn't it? And you think that's where the equity isn't there, when you think that isolation shouldn't happen so, so tell me about some of the things that maiden voyage do that. Support women travelers or, and let's be fair, any traveler that's particularly, going to an at risk country. So we, well first of all, just to, I guess, pick up on the point of an at-risk country because actually somebody asked me the other day, are there some places that are safer than others? And I talked a little bit around situational awareness and, the Coopers colors and. On Sunday, uh, my partner and I were out hiking in a field and, we were very much in the white or the green zone. We were looking, we were very much in the white and green zone actually, because it had snowed and I remember in the countryside. And, uh, we were sort of looking around, very chilled out. And then suddenly from nowhere my partner was attacked by a tyrannical farmer who accused us of trespassing. And, we run a public bridal way, and this guy clearly had got some mental issues, but it turned physical. And from the, I guess the sort of background that I've got, I know that, a small thing can escalate quite quickly. Somebody could end up really seriously injured. Somebody could end up dead, and we were in the middle of nowhere. And I have to say, oh, my self-defense training went right out the window at that point. So I wasn't prepared for what was happening. And so, I think it, it's not necessarily that a place is more dangerous than others. I think it's about having that preparation and that risk mitigation, having a plan and having a plan B and maybe a plan C as well to protect ourselves. And so typically organizations might bring us in to do travel safety training. So it might be as we've just spoken about, region specific workshops. So it could be for women traveling to Saudi Arabia, or it could be more generic. Can we run an inclusive travel safety program, which looks at race and ethnicity, gender sexual orientation. Physical, hidden disabilities, diseases and so on. And we've really pivoted as an organization. We used to be, I guess a by and for organization. We were running women's travel safety courses by women for women, but actually, In the last few years, we've seen the de and I agenda really massively open up, and organizations are now seeing that actually inclusivity, equity, and diversity are everybody's business. And so therefore, I love to run a workshop whereby we create a real understanding from, a white male manager who's sending a diverse group of individuals. Various, obviously business trip, understanding what those issues might be. And quite often they're things that you know, you wouldn't think of at all, but it creates people being really good bystanders, really good allies, and not questioning somebody if they seem reticent or, or nervous about a specific scenario, whether that's a certain country or a certain time of day to fly, or a certain colleague that they don't want to. I know. Big business, big corporate are taking a lot more measures, aren't they, for travel risk safety for their employees, because the driving factor is the, the insurance and the kind of mitigation against being sued, it's ironic, isn't it, that money or legalities become a driving factor for improving someone's safety rather than the fact that the clear and present risk and in the early days, this very much was a tick in the box. And so maiden voyage has always been, unfortunately ahead of its time. So as I kept inventing and innovating and pivoting and coming up with ideas, organizations were not convinced that they needed this. It was a nice to have. It was a, an extra thing. But I think nowadays the buyer has changed somewhat. It used to be the travel manager or the the head of protective services, but we're seeing more engagement now from hr. We're seeing more from the diversity and inclusivity teams. We're seeing people From the events management teams getting involved, and we're also seeing the travel management companies getting involved as well because they're being asked by their clients what they can do to support an inclusive travel program. And it helps, doesn't it, that organizations have d n I teams for example, whereas, five, six years ago that wouldn't have been the case. And so there is a consciousness of needing to be aware of these sorts of risks. Uh, but it sounds like you've got the right buy-in from the right people. But then Covid happened, didn't it? I mean, what did you do and how did you get through? So Covid was a bit like a reverse slot machine. It was like Vegas on reverse. Literally there was money going outta the business, faster than it was coming in. And prior to that, we'd had our best year ever. We'd, started to work with some of the big oil companies and Silicon Valley tech companies and various entertainment organizations as well as, smaller organizations. And suddenly, Not only were people not renewing contracts, but some people who just paid were actually asking for their money back. So we as an organization had to really sort of sharp our pencil and tighten our belts, and we had to let some people go and cook some luxuries in terms of the business and scale it right back. But one of the things I think that saved us is that we did did a lot of Easter, so we kept in, in touch with people. We offered a listening ear, so if people just wanted to ring up for a chat, we did that. We developed a Covid 19 travel safety module quite quickly. And also we partnered with Safe Chore and we put their risk map on the website, which provided all the latest information around. Covid travel restrictions. And, and actually even today we've got clients who are still coming to our website to hit that map to see what the restrictions are in certain countries. And then we just started sort of writing courses ready for coming outta Covid. And then as soon as, business started to pick up, we could invest in developing more courses and more e-learning. And we managed to bounce back. And in fact, last year was a, an exceptional year because. Some of our clients pushed our creative boundaries or stretched them further than what we thought we were capable of. And we had a couple of clients who had us actually filmed some documentaries for them. So we put together some really cool. Media pieces with some BBC journalists and, full sort of set of twenties and camera crew and runners and makeup artists and stuff. But also that we had some eLearning modules commissioned specifically for clients, which were branded. And so, they were nice to work on because they were different. But also we sort of became, I guess, part of their teams as well for, a few. I mean, look, I'm sure that you don't need me to tell you that being able to make such a good pivot at a time like Covid, I mean, many businesses didn't and couldn't and wouldn't do that. Sounds like a really smart move. Really just bringing travel into alignment with Covid. I think what always has stood me in good stead is that when your back's against the wall, that's the time that you get creative. And, I don't like my back against the wall. Too frequently, but sometimes you have to feel a certain amount of pain to give you the impetus to, to move forward rather than always doing the same thing and expecting a different result. That must be what that word seasoned means then, Carolyn. So look that's really good. Covid seems to have taken very much a sort of it's a shadow, isn't it, that follows us around everywhere at the moment. But everyone has fairly much, especially in the uk, resumed sort of normal and you, we no longer need to wear masks in medical facilities or go to the doctors and things like that. Do you see that changing? And I dunno if it's too early to t yet, or whether it's just a cycle of adaption that we're gonna need to get used. So I think the biggest fallout from Covid was actually a mental health impact that's had on people. And that's been, it's been negative and it's been positive actually because. People have been, I guess less keen to travel. They are more thrifty with their time. But also it's opened up conversations which wouldn't have opened up otherwise. And everybody is really talking about mental health now. and there are some medical conditions which, which have impacted people on business travel for years. Things like. With chronic fatigue syndrome, which might be a secondary sort of set of symptoms, based on something else that they've got. But of course it's very similar to what long covid might do to some people. So actually people saying, I'm happy to go on that trip, but I'm not taking a 4:00 AM flight or I'm not going out for dinner. And people were not questioning that quite so frequently. So I think there's a lot of good stuff came outta that actually. And of course people are traveling. There's more working from home. People are a lot smarter with their time. People are booking us to do workshops online now, whereas before a lot of them were in person. So it is really helped a lot of people and businesses who've embraced the way that the world's gone rather than those who've resisted it. it felt like a tale of two cities, really Covid. Cause I think introverts just loved it and just loved being in their homes and creating their lives. And I think the extroverts and those that really needed to have wings and fly were the ones that deemed to struggle the most. The ones that need, people, need company and need that social interaction. I was the first group. Just bought the house and we went into lockdown literally the week I was moving. And so you could, can you imagine how happy I was unpacking all my boxes, knowing the whole world had shut down. Basically it was, I was literally super thrilled. And then, but I also, that market that you talked about that is less likely to travel now and when I did go on holiday last year, I had the worst experience, and it wasn't the holiday, it wasn't the people, it was just the experience again of being in airports and just not feeling that I was treated particularly humanely. I just hated the whole thing and by now, I would've gone to, I usually go to Dubai in January for a cheeky. I've always booked two or three European trips to go see friends and pals and I haven't booked anything because I am so not inclined. So I am a part of that market that the travel industry need to sort of spice up, really get me feeling good about traveling again. Yeah. What do. They do. They do. And I've actually, we've noticed that gap. Somebody shared a horrific experience with me the other day where she was traveling through airport security with a pacemaker. And it all went horribly wrong. And she was sent back and forth and then she was because she became a suspect of, someone who was carrying a device. She was strip search, not once booked twice. She was humiliated. She was running for her flight. She was extremely. And as a result of that, actually we're doing some research and some work at the moment in the aviation and industry to see if we can actually improve that passenger experience and make it more inclusive. But as you say, yolande are also just making it like bearable. I dunno what it is. I mean, it's not because we spent months and years distancing ourselves from people for our own health. It just became I saw people as just. Bodies of germs. Does that make sense? I just like, don't touch me, don't breathe on me like this, like this. I don't wanna go to concerts anymore because it's just full of people and Yeah. So I've gone that way, aware of it. I'm aware. And, oh, the other thing as well is, I'm happy to share this, is that, I suffered some bizarre episode on the flight back, and I went into this really weird mental state, and it was because my body became hypersensitive to just being overtired. I think the flight was delayed by two hours. We were sat in the chair and the restriction I had what I believe is a mental claustrophobia, not a physical claustrophobia. I've never had any type of anxiety at all, and I've never been sort of an anxious person. But I developed this really, like, I was rocking in my chair Wow. Because I was so uncomfortable and I was in the middle. I had no elbow room. People will sleep either side of. And I couldn't get up and I couldn't walk up and down the middle. There was just something restricting me from doing that, and I was suffering a lot and I was conscious throughout the whole thing. I couldn't, I felt like this sense of agitation all over my body, but I didn't feel physically restricted. Well, or is it a physical claustrophobia and not a mental one? I dunno. But it was one or the other. It was one where I clearly knew I was safe. I was in a plane, but I. The most uncomfortable don't have gone a plane anymore. Now thinking, gosh, how, how long was the flight? It was only from roads to Stan Uhhuh, and so at four hours, that was a lengthened two six because of the two hour delay on and it was a late flight, so we didn't take off until one instead of 11:00 PM. And I think my body and you, obviously you traveled to the airport that day is a pretty long day as well. And, and I just think there were a number of different factors, but I just, I literally experienced for the first time this helplessness around this strong urge of feeling really bad. Can't, can't describe it at all. Did it go away when the plane landed, when you knew you could get off? I just, I just remember. And I, and I, I said to my friend who was sat next to me, I said, I'm so sorry if this makes you feel uncomfortable. I said, I just, I feel absolutely utterly dreadful. And she said, no, it's all right. She put a hand on my shoulder. She said, it's okay. It's okay. It's not long till we get home. And I just, I just remember, just dis knowing I was getting home. And once we'd landed, yeah, things felt better. But I, I will always remember that I was very conscious throughout the whole thing. It wasn't like I had an episode and I don't remember anything about it. It was the most bizarrest thing. So now you're nervous that you might get that next time you plan. Yeah, I'm thinking and I, and I think a, I'm never gonna get a middle seat again cuz I'm quite tall and I've got long legs and I think I won't, I think I'm really, it's a cool to travel with more luxurious style. I think Carol, less budget travel well travel less, but travel well. I think that's a new saying actually in the business travel industry. That's actually not a bad thing. And you, when you think that we can alter our carbon footprint, can't we, by traveling less and traveling well and we get a, we get treated well in the process. I wonder if anybody else I, I even felt like really hot then. Like I've got all hot just talking about it because I think my body was just under some sort of stress. Yeah, it sounds like a couple of therapy sessions might just be the way to go. I wouldn't be the first time anyone suggested. I'd take a couple of therapy sessions. Catalyst.

23:20

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Yoyo 24:05

So tell me what's new for you for 2023? Well, what is new for me in 2023? I have just undergone a sort of, internationalization piece of work with d I t. And I think it's a little bit, my calling as well because I don't do well. I'm part of the second group that needs to be out there and needs to be traveling and only feels normal when she's in an airport. So I'm really. Pushing now, sort of international contracts. We're doing some work with some of the TMCs in the US and doing some speaking engagements virtually and hopefully in person as well. So really I guess, concentrating on that market and also working with some of the people who are supplying the. As well in that supply chain. So I hope, hopefully I'm gonna get back out on the road again and have more fun and get around real people rather than, just sort of being here inventing stretchy legs a bit. 100%. What's the, I mean, has the travel industry recovered? Do you know yet? Or is it still on a path of recovery? It's still on the path of recovery. Some regions are recovering quicker. The Middle East actually is doing quite well, for various reasons as well as lots more people heading there. But I think, CO2 and sustainability and emissions and so on are really top of the agenda for a lot of organizations now who are looking at their travel budget. Asking their TMCs or travel management companies, what they're doing about sustainability. So I think generally we will see less travel but more meaningful travel. And maybe people consolidating trips as well. Certainly, I, the minute I get out of the country on a business trip, it will turn into a pleasure trip. But you know, it won't just be there and back in the day, I'll be a winner as long as I can possibly be. So Barbados on the agenda then? Yeah. Bit of the Maldives slip that in while I'm in the neighborhood. Yeah, the Maldives could tempt me out, to be honest. It really could, somewhere just really quiet like that. Anyway, we digress. Look, let's look at the kind of things that we need to think about as women, as women travelers. And you mentioned this before and it's just so simple and it's so relevant and I'm sure you've got more tips, but you said travel with a door wedge. I mean, how simple and effective. It's very simple and it's very effective, but I still manage to forget to do it. A few weeks ago I stayed in a hotel in London and it was very male dominated. I was the only woman in reception for both staff and guests. And the guy who was behind reception, I heard him announce a previous guests room number out outline, and I knew inevitably he was going to announce mine as. So I stopped him midway through and said, stop, just write it down. And there was a few other things that he did that was a bit strange, that made me feel a bit nervous. And and then he decided to escort me to my room. So then I explained to him why you don't shout guests room numbers out loud. We got into an annex and he didn't seem to know his way around the annex, so he got me out the lift on the wrong floor and I just wasn't really filled with confidence, this guy. And so when I got to my room, I realized that I'd forgotten my door wedge. And this hotel had some wine glasses in the room and there was some square. I've never seen a square sauce before. So what I actually did is I fashioned my own door wedge come along, which is I wedged the square sauce under the door and then I put a wine glass upside down on the handle so that if he did come back and turn the handle. The glass would fall on the saucers and smash and everybody would be allowed to that fact. But yes, obviously a door wedged because many hotels have only got one lock and people can access with a master key to guests can be allocated to the same room. We've seen incidents of, really horrific assaults in hotels where people have been given access to another guest room. So that immediately just takes away that, that risk. I mean, that's just, it's, look, it's profound that we need to do that, but, We recognize it is a necessity to start thinking like that. And I think one of the worst possible things to happen on this subject really is to be subjected to a sexual assault in a country that doesn't recognize women's uh, rights in relation to consent. And then realizing you've got absolutely no recourse. no police officers gonna support you. If anything, you are vulnerable because you've made a claim against somebody that could put you potentially at further risk. Have there been any cases, any particular high profile cases that you can talk about where you know that women have come under a lot of heat because of the country they're in and something's horrible's. Not recently, which I'm pleased to say. Mm-hmm. Obviously I'm still coming across cases of sexual assault in hotels. But recently a client got in touch and said, we'd like you to come in and do a course for a specific. Part of the world. And the reason that they'd asked me to do that was because they'd done an exit interview with a member of staff. And during that exit interview, she disclosed that she'd actually been subjected to a sexual assault on a business trip a number of years ago, and she'd never actually reported that to the employer. So obviously the employer couldn't have done anything about it if they didn't know, but they were absolutely mortified that she'd had to go through. That they weren't able to support her and possibly more women could have had the same experience, but they'd not had the opportunity or the knowledge to do anything about it. let's go through some of the travel risk advice that you provide as a business. Yeah. I, in the sense of the methodology. So now we are in a position, aren't we? Especially through the digitalization and the transformation from old ways to new ways. How much easier is it now to get the right information to people and how do you. So we, as you say, we work with large organizations, so a lot of the large organizations are blessed with a travel with management provider who does all the heavy lifting for that destination research. So understanding some of the cultural norms, the attitudes to women attitudes to L G B T. Communities and so that's done for a lot of employees. All they need to do is read the country report that's sent to them or go and find it on the portal. So a lot of it is that preparation and that learning about the destination, but then also thinking about their context because we are not all the same. We've got different risk appetites. For me I like to be in a room with a bath, on the first floor, and I don't want to be on the ground floor and all of these things. So knowing what is gonna make me feel comfortable and is going to make me feel safe. I don't want an adjoining room, for example, because of the noise that you get to the fact that the doors are maybe not as secure. working out also what you need as a traveler as a basic, or, as a basis to keep. Safe or feel safe. It could be certain dietary requirements you need to have catered for, or it might be a certain schedule that you've got. So anything that's gonna reduce the stress, which again, will then not impede your ability to make good quality decisions when you're traveling. Things like staying in touch. Who are you going to stay in touch with? Some common things around ground transportation. So, not having your name on sign when you arrive in country, but having other ways to identify your driver. Things like, protecting your belongings on board an aircraft or protecting yourself, from, Antisocial behavior and wanted touching, not taking, sleeping medication on a long flight because again, that would impede your ability to do something in the case of an emergency or not to detect a crime that was, being committed against you. So I think that the sessions really are absolutely jam-packed with, All these tips and basically the organizations can decide what medium fits best for their culture. So do they want somebody sitting in front of them having a conversation with them? Do they want to watch that on an animation? Do they want to watch it on a video? Oh, manner of different things that they might want to do that sort of fits in with how they consume learning and what their attention. for example, some companies might want to sit there for a full day. Other ones might want a full day's course in 90 minutes. And so, we have to talk like auctioneers to get the information across. Just so much information that it's delivered across, but also the pre-work that we do. Understanding the company, what resources they've got, who do they ring if things go wrong where the gaps might be, what the culture's like. Is it misogynistic in head office? Well, guess what? It's probably going to be even worse when people are out on business trip together. What countries they travel to, how are they travel? Are they staying in compounds or are they staying in five star luxury hotels? And so we always adapt all the training materials to fit. That specific company. It's never sort of, we turn up and do the same course that we did yesterday. sometimes I find, women don't want to make a fu, they don't want to ask for anything. and it's that whole, not drawing attention to themselves. And sometimes they will tolerate when traveling, things that make them feel very uncomfortable because God forbid they make a fast and someone says, oh, it's always, Emily complaining, and that's another. Hard issue, isn't it? That women should, we should all collectively feel more empowered to definitely speak up when, rather than retract and not make a fuss. Oh, I remember flying to Ireland with a colleague a few years ago before I had made a voyage and my bag got pulled over, went through the handbag screening and The customs guys pulled out some some tablets that they, that I got and they weren't particularly anything offensive, but I didn't really need my colleague to see it. And I was trying to stuff them back in the suitcase. And the colleague became really sort of interested. It was like, what is it? what did they find it? Was it condoms? I was like, really? It's just crass, isn't it? Yeah. I've, I can also hear the retort going, oh, I thought that was funny. Because it's just cause you think it's funny. It doesn't mean saying other people think it's funny, yeah. Uhhuh. But it's also disturbing that, close to one in three, which is 30% of this survey I looked at is basically produced by business travel news. you'll know them. Uhhuh 31% said they. Travel or go out, on their own at night, again, compared to 18% of men, less women are gonna go out, like you said, and go and enjoy maybe a local restaurant, or gonna experience the local culture in a safe way. It's a shame, isn't it? And that, I think that's why. It's because I want to really empower those women to do that. I think it's a travesty. I would never sit in my hotel room and have room service unless it was a very nice room and very nice room service. If I'm working in Silicon Valley, I'll go out to a yoga class. I'll definitely go out for dinner. I'll maybe look on my LinkedIn to see who's around, who I can meet up with, and I just really want to turn all of my business. To a bit of a holiday and just get out and see the place that I've traveled to. Cuz for me, that's the point of business travel is that connection and that exploring and hearing different languages and meeting different people and just getting versed in something different and novel. It's interesting actually, in the report as well, it talks about the percentage of women that resort to outward signaling, i e, like wearing a wedding ring, real or fake, to avoid unwanted attention. Now, I've done that loads of times, which is again, when I hear the words come up my mouth, I'm thinking I shouldn't have to do that. I shouldn't have to physically do something that stops a man approaching me that I don't. and yet we all do it. It's just, it's all be it. Become a part of like 1 0 1 survival guide, isn't it? For traveling on your own. God. just navigating life in general as a woman is a little bit like that, isn't it? But then when you've got the cultural differences, the different languages, the different attitudes to women, remember being in Istanbul just at the time that there was quite a few terrorists attacks, and not only was I, trying to walk around and not get blown up, but I was also, people latching onto me and just following me and, just like, God, sort of have to be hypervigilant in a, a relatively safe, country. Really. So objectively speaking, and I know you can't speak for anybody, I know that businesses, employers, will want to do the right thing. They will want to make sure that all of their travelers have an extension of safety that they would have going to their home place of. And, and I know that's difficult. And talking to other travel risk advisors in the past, we know that there's internal mechanisms and things to sign. It's a disclaimer. It basically says, I agree to read these instructions. And there's nothing really policing the fact that you've read those instructions. The employer can only sort of, Do, uh, due diligence really, I suppose, can't make someone read a document that could ultimately give them valuable information. And that's frustrating, isn't it? Because I think deep down humans, we like to feel we're safe. and yet we're sometimes less safe than we think we are. We can be in a bubble of what we used to say in, in our home country compared to going abroad. We can forget, we're, we're overseas. And where does the, where does the liability sit in your opinion? Knowing that the business can only go so far in educating and explaining and telling, and the employee will only go so far in how much they read, what is made available. Yeah. So quite often the information that's shared with employees is long. It's boring. Uh, it's the same thing every time. Particularly if they're hit with a 20 page travel policy. I'm not good with instructions. I'll press buttons first and then read the instructions later. So. Probably people aren't going to read that documentation, and that's when it gets into being a tick in the box. But also, employees do have a duty of loyalty and a duty of responsibility because if they're not informed and they're not sort of following company rules or regulation or they're. Booking off system or whatever they're doing. Then not only are they putting themselves at risk potentially, but they're also putting the company's reputation at risk. They may be putting their colleagues at risk the general public. And but companies don't really train in that. They don't explain to employees the consequences of not doing something or not following a particular procedure or explaining why that is. and I do still see organizations thinking this is either a tickbox exercise or it's not necessary. I literally spoke to the chief executive travel management company today, and he said that a lot of his clients have said to him that they don't need to do anything on inclusivity because their travel policy should be the same for everybody irrespective of their personal characteristics and irrespective of the fact that the new ISO 30 1030, talks about sort of minority groups. So I think it's probably in, in my I guess my opinion is 70% employer, 30% employee in terms of making this a safe. I like that. 31 30 as well. I've taken a look at it. I think it's smashing for a framework. It's a starting point, isn't it? For Yeah. businesses to get their gameplay in order, so to speak. Yeah. And I'd like to see all companies that advocate for international travel achieving this accreditation, but, Do you see a high uptake of the 31 30 at all? I am seeing more than probably what I expected. and just to clarify, it's a guideline, this stage. Yeah. It's not an accreditation, so it's it's voluntary. Organizations can do it. There's no. There's no requirement to do it. And technically there isn't, an official audit per se. What you can do is you can audit or be audited to sell for it by somebody else against the guidelines to say, am I doing all of these things? And there are quite a lot of things to do. there are some investments needed, whether it's training or risk assessments or whatever that might be. But it is a really good thing to do, even if you're a small organization. When we have more staff traveling for business and now we have associate trainers traveling for business, it's still in everybody's interest for people to know when something goes wrong, who they call, what they're covered for how it's going to be fixed, where the money's coming from and all of that. Prior to 24th of February, 2022, we would've had people traveling in the Ukraine thinking it was safe to be in the Ukraine. And that's an entirely different situation, isn't it, to be in a country and realize it's, some crazy Russians declared war on it. And you don't expect that when you are traveling for business. But I should imagine it did happen. Yeah. And actually I was in Marrakesh when the, the bomb went off in the, in the cafe. Wow. So, yeah, and that's why I think, if you look at a risk, heat map and you've got sort of red, amber, green places, a place can be very pale green, but on that particular day it can be very red for you depending on just the circumstances split second of farmer in a field. And so, preparing as much as you can, to. I guess drill some of the things that you might need to do. But I walk along the canal near my house and occasionally you get the odd flasher or the odd weirdo or, and so you, I'm always sort of, In the Amazon, a little bit on my guard, but I have to regularly sort of practice how you get your iPhone to call the emergency services without unlocking and dialing. 9, 9, 9. Yes. And you inevitably end up taking a photograph of my home screen rather than, yes, emergency services. But just a simple thing like that is a good drill to have, isn't it? Yes, it really is. And. I find myself also rehearsing how I'm gonna react if someone flashes at me. And I always shouldn't really be having to think about that. And I know it makes sense that we do, but deep down we all wanna go like, haha, you silly little man. But ultimately I do this avoidance thing where avert my eyes and go, I can't believe that just happened. Like, and then I'm, then I'm kicking myself. Like every step I take away going, I've rehearsed this, I've practiced this. Why did I still revert to, I didn't really see that, yeah. Oh, goodness me. First of all before we finish up, take us through what happened to Marrakesh. How did that affect you as a traveler? Well actually we were there for just a long weekend. It wasn't a business trip. I actually went up into the Atlas Mountains for a few days. That turned out to be the place where the two Scandinavian girls were murdered actually a couple of years ago. And so we'd literally left the city for a few days and somebody texted me and said, are you okay? Bomb's gone off in Marrakesh and went back and literally an area where we'd been the day before had been blown up. we weren't injured. Nothing happened to us. It was a tragedy for the people who were impacted by it, but In the world that we live in today things happen all the time, don't they? And you just have to count your blessings that it didn't happen to you at that particular time. Yeah, I was in Bali before the Kuta bombing in 2002. And not only had I been out there for several months, cause I was about to come back to the UK and join the police, I finally got my start date. So I did a bit of traveling beforehand, which is what you do. I didn't take a holiday for seven years. So it's a good job. I've got that out my system. And yeah, the week after we returned home was the kuda bombing. My, my dad was still in Kuta when that happened. It was very close. And all the people that we've been hanging around with, they were all like queuing up to donate blood at the hospitals and food banks and things. And my dad was there doing the same thing. And the story's a lot broader than that, as you can imagine. But we realized, had we stayed an extra week, for example, our faith could have been completely determined differently because of where we would've been and where, who we would've been socializing with. And our activities were fairly centered on being at. Social strip of pubs and clubs, which is exactly what they wanted to do, maximum event program on TV about that, which I need to catch up with. Lastly, Going back to the business travel news at the very end, a person called Giannis Janice, basically states that when it comes to travel for female solo travelers, technology on offer is, with few exceptions, pretty substandard. She also challenged the travel industry to consider trip planning through the eyes of a solo female traveler, and predicted a huge uptake for travel tech providers who could flip the switch on effective tools. And then she says, how many websites have filters, for example, that might cater for such needs? How many allow you to see female only commentaries and ratings for those travel technology companies that can really make an impact in this area? It's a huge financial reward on offer to female travelers will naturally gravitate towards perhaps even swamp travel platforms that can offer them the reassurances they understandably crave. I think that's gonna be the very core of what you do, isn't it, Carolyn? I think that's where I started, 15 years ago. And I'm actually a little bit surprised to see this having a bit of resurgence in terms of. Female only because we have, spread into, more of an inclusivity piece. Because if you filter for female travelers, why not filter with people who are on the autistic spectrum or L G B T travelers? Of course you can, everybody's talking about personalization in travel tech space, but I think it's more than that because we are not just one. I really about the intersectionality and, if I was gonna slice one way, maybe I'm not sliced the other way. And actually I think where tech could really take us is that we have a profile where we talk about what our specific needs are, not just from a gender and one dimensional perspective, but from a multi-dimensional perspective. So that my trip is absolutely the trip that works for me with, and everything that makes for. Hmm, 100%. It would be nice to see some different types of ways of reviewing places. I e, even if you are reviewing for the health and safety of that location, without it necessarily being too gender specific, we don't seem to see a lot of that. Do we? We used to have a a hotel certification program, and we've still got a couple of hotels that we're working with, but we we will be changing that because it was very much, we asked, hundreds of women years ago what they wanted from a hotel, what will make a hotel female friendlier. And even now hotels come to us and say, we want to appeal to the female traveler. What do we need to do? And my first question, Have you got double locking doors? Send me the photographs of you double locking doors. And I never hear from them again. Cause they don't have double locking doors. And that's not just for women travelers, it's for anybody. I've heard of people who, men being in hotels and Barcelona, had somebody break in and steal their belongings or assault them. So it is just, I think a common sort of standard practice. So I, in, in some respects, it's more important. Forming on those particular safety features rather than, how we treat women travelers. And I think secondly, if you have a standard, you've got to live and die by that standard. So there are, certain hotels, there's a large chain here in the uk. You've got a long female traveler standard. I think they might have just changed it to a loan traveler standard now, which has never announced room numbers out loud. Never put women on the ground floor. Inevitably, whenever I stay, when my colleagues say we get room numbers announced out loud. My friend complained about we put in the, on the ground floor and they put her in the basement. Yeah. It's it's still, a lot of work to do. I've done a lot of business travel, I've never actually requested to go to a specific location in the hotel. But you've got me thinking now that I should also be asking for the first floor, certainly never the ground floor. And maybe I could ask for locations where there are more women staying. It's safety and numbers, isn't it? A bit like that. I never thought about it, so you've made me think about my options. Travel safety and travel security is quite a serious subject, isn't it, Carolyn? Really? What do you do to take yourself out of a less, a serious mindset. Well, maiden voyages has really presented some opportunities to have a bit of fun. Anyway, I've got a bit of mischievous nature. But when I first started Maiden Voyage I was contacted by CNN and I was working for ITV at the time on the, south Bank. And they'd asked me to go into shoot a clip with them and Wired Magazine and they literally changed a few meetings, got a cap from the office. Recorded an interview and then literally went back to the office and just carried on with my day job. And I just loved the, how naughty it was how thrilling it was and how bloody scary it was to get up and do that. And I did something similar working at ITB in Manchester where again, I snuck out at lunchtime and did a pitch to dragons. And then literally went back to the office and carried on talking about it. Data security or something equally boring. Pitch to Dragon Stent. Is it really as terrifying as it looks like on tv? So this was with the researchers. You do that before you go to the dragons. And I'd peaked. I was a bit early in terms of where the business was, so I never actually went on. But it was pretty scary. But I, but I like scary. One of the things that I do in my spare time to push myself outta my comfort zone and to just shake off all these. This negativity, if you will, is that I've done some standup comedy courses. And what I love about it is that they make you perform on stage after two or three days training in front of a live audience with brand new material that you've just written. And it's bodily terrifying. But the good news is that if you don't die, then afterwards you, you think, well, I've just done standup comedy. I didn't die, so this can't be as bad as that. I just, that, that's got to be, I mean, look, I used to be a, a dj I DJ'ed in clubs internationally, and I I think I like the fact that I'm behind a box and I'm in control of what's going on pretty much like now. And, but I couldn't imagine. I think the worst thing would be to get on a stage with a microphone and the thing, is my material good enough to make people laugh? That's terrify. But, but equally thrilling. Equally thrilling. I also remember when we first had our female friendly hotel certification Richard Branson opened up, Virgin Hotels and they marketed Virgin hotels as female friendly. And they'd put these seats in the shower so you could shave your legs. I. Sex toys and vibrators or something in the mini bar. And so I went to, I think it was TK Maps or somewhere and bought some red underpants. And then I took them to the local, t-shirt printing people got them to print female friendly on the back of these underpants. And got a gifting company to ship these to Necar. But it was a disaster because they literally went everywhere. We were tracking this parcel. I think they went to China at some point, so I'm not sure if Rich ever got his pants. Oh no. And and you haven't asked him to find out. Maybe he's wearing them. He might have forgotten all about it. And then he what? He what? And he's telling this story around the dinner table with Carolyn about how he got. Delivery of pants, and he doesn't know to this day, but they're the nicest pants he's ever had. What was your comedy about, by the way? What did you write and how successful was it? Uh, well, some of the stuff I couldn't possibly share on your podcast, cause I'm not sure if it's got an age limit or not. But I, I did talk about, things like situational stuff like, being in a cabin and, the overintrusive question that you get from cabins about, have you been on holiday? Who have you been with? But do you not have kids? Why do you not have kids? Is it you or him? That kind of stuff. Yeah. But I, also did actually get, the gig that I lasted was in Wales and I had come across the Sex with Emily podcast and literally got everybody in Ilin to download the Sex with Emily podcast. So I'm expecting if I go back in about five months, there'll be a baby boom there. You're right there about taxi drivers. I got in one the other day and I, I don't go to London so much now. I'm being coerced out gradually. I'm going in again on Friday, but I, I went in for an As is, seminar and. And on the way back home, yeah, the taxi driver says,, have you got kids? And I'm just like, I just literally said, don't talk to me. That was it. I said, don't talk to me, because I just get fed up of being nice when the situation doesn't deserve it. And I could have turned around to him and said, look, really, that's none of your business and I really don't wanna talk about it. And it's not a good conversation for me to have. Or I could have even sort of taken another approach and said, it's not really a good question to ask a woman these days, and these are the reasons why I just said, don't talk to me because I just got fatigued. With it. And I don't want to get to that stage where I stop being a positive communicator and educating and helping people to change just because I'm becoming fatigued about the, the way I said. How on earth did you change that subject to comedy? Cause I just, I felt like I brought the tone right back down then. Like, how do you make that. I just, in my head I was like, response, a, B, C, D, other, and it, I was just going, oh, I haven't got the energy for this. So, real life of it. How did you make it funny? Oh, well, I think it was just how ludicrous the questioning was and the way it just continues. And I think with comedy, it's always in the timing, right? Yes. It's, I've never been a good joke. I think I'm quite funny. Yeah. But I've never been a good joke teller cuz I'm always laughing at the punchline before it happens. And you know what, Carolyn, You're not meant to laugh at your own jokes, are you? Correct? It's really uncool and as I learned to my peril over the years And I don't really like to tell jokes for obvious reasons, cuz obviously I can't. I sat down with my dad once and I was in my forties and my dad was telling a joke at the table and then he laughed at his own joke and I went, God damnit, that's where I get it from. Exactly. Does the same thing. No. At the end of the day, if you think you're funny, that's all that matters. Right. Yeah. I'm just gonna stick with that, Carolyn, and then please just, if you do nothing else after today's podcast, please just sign up for a standup comedy course because you'll thank me for it forever. Wow. What great advice. I might just look into it. I'm always up for a challenge. Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time today and for certainly making travel risk an exciting subject to talk about. Thank you. we will obviously put a link to your website and your LinkedIn profile on your bio as well, so anybody can follow up. If they need any advice on any type of travel around inclusivity or any marginalized community, Carolyn is the place to go. Carolyn, thank you so much. My pleasure, Yolanda. Thank you. B