EP 025 Thorsten Neumann on Asset Protection in the Supply Chain 'Modern Technology Makes Your Life Easier, But It's Not More Secure'

BIO Thorsten Neumann

President & CEO TAPA EMEA

Thorsten Neumann has 20 years’ experience in leadership roles in the Industrial Loss Prevention & Security industries.

After joining the Transported Asset Protection Association’s (TAPA) Board of Directors in the Europe, Middle East & Africa (EMEA) region
in 2003, he went on to serve as Chairman of TAPA EMEA between 2006 and 2019 before being appointed as the supply chain security and resilience Association’s first-ever full-time President & CEO in 2020.

Since then, TAPA EMEA has built a full-time professional team to support it membership of nearly 800 companies, including Manufacturers, Logistics Service Providers, Insurers, Security Service Providers and Consultancies, as well

as Law Enforcement Agencies and Associate Partner organisations from across the EMEA region.

As well as its highest-ever membership in the region, TAPA EMEA is also seeing record growth in companies achieving certifications for its Facility, Trucking and Secure Parking industry standards. Supported by the Association’s biggest-ever training programme. In 2022, the launch of the TAPA EMEA Intelligence System (TIS) now provides members with a new and intuitive intelligence tool to support their risk management and loss prevention strategies by providing a searchable database of all cargo crime incidents reported to the Association.

As well as representing TAPA EMEA during its work with, and support of, Europol, INTERPOL, the European Commission, and other supply chain security stakeholders, Thorsten is a NATO Civil Expert for Transportation, Communication & Cyber Threats.

He also serves as Chair of the Board (Vorstandsvorsitzender) of ASW NORD, the Alliance for Security in the Economy of Northern Germany (ASWN).

Earlier in his career, Thorsten spent 10 years with Motorola and 7 years with Nokia, initially as Head of Supply Chain Security and ultimately holding the position of Chief Security Operation Officer. Following the acquisition of Nokia in 2013, he joined Microsoft, holding Director roles in Europe and the United States.

He is now based at TAPA EMEA’s offices in Germany.

To learn more about TAPA EMEA, go to

www.tapaemea.org

https://www.linkedin.com/in/thorsten-neumann-54644842/

www.tapaemea.org

https://www.linkedin.com/company/transported-asset-protection-association-emea/?viewAsMember=true

Security Circle ⭕️  is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

Yoyo 0:15

hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. Ifpo is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, and we wanna thank all of our listeners around the world. Thank you for listening. We are dedicated to providing meaningful education and certification for all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference to our members' mental health and wellbeing. Now, today I have with me, A very special man. I say this all the time, um, Thorston, you are special. Thorston Newman, who is a senior supply chain and security specialist with more than 20 years of supply chain and logistics background. He's also the president and c e o of Transport Asset Protection Association. Tapper, as it's widely known and he's also a NATO industry expert for transportation. Communication and cybersecurity areas. And the chair of the board for a s w North Germany. Well, welcome Thorston Newman to the Security Circle podcast.

Thorsten Numann 1:16

Thank you. Thank you. Um, it's really a pleasure to be here today, so thanks for the invite and I'm looking forward to share the experience.

Yoyo 1:24

Well, I'll ask you that question later. You can tell me whether it was good. Um, so Tapper, there'll be some people here who won't have heard of Tapper,

Thorsten Numann 1:34

right. TAPA actually is the, as you already said, the Transported Asset Protection Association. Um, I'm taking care of the region, Europe, middle East, and Africa. And TAPA was founded actually 25 years ago in the us. By high tech manufacturers. So when we started 25 years ago, we've been called Technology Asset Protection Association. But over the time we really transformed and transitioned into the transported cause. What we identified as the industry is really that. It's not one specific industry which is targeted by organized criminals. It's all industries. Because, the world is changing, economy is changing, technology is changing, so therefore the risk is changing every day. And whilst, for example, 20 years ago, it was specifically the high tech industry which was targeted by the organized criminals because as we can imagine, uh, Now because the market change, you see that all industries are under attack. A good example is 10 years ago or 15 years ago, before the worldwide web came, um, we have seen black markets. So you knew that you were buying a stolen item. Now it's invisible. You have no clue if the item is stolen or it's counterfeit or it's carousel fraud or whatever. And that's the biggest challenge because the criminals are using exactly the same supply chain and the same marketplaces as we do. So if you go to the big marketplaces in the world, whatever the name is, it can be, the eBays, the flip cards, the Alibabas, the Amazon. As soon as we talk about a marketplace, There's a risk that you buy stolen items, but you don't know it because you receive an invoice. You have a genuine seller, but the seller who's selling it to you. Buying it from the black market. So that's really quite important. And Tappa is the unique industry association, really connecting the dots within an end-to-end supply chain solution. Because our members are not only say manufacturers or logistics providers, we really cover the entire supply chain. So over the last 25 years, we really started from a manufacturing driven organization into the entire supply chain. We have manufacturers, we have. Shippers, logistics, service providers, trucking companies, ocean vessels, airline companies, rail rail. We have retailers, we have insurance companies. We have, really everything what is covered within the supply chain but another unique situation we have within the transport as a protection association is we are very, very, very connected to law enforcement agencies all over the world. So in Europe, middle East and Africa alone, we have more than 300 police contacts really. Supporting what TAPA is doing. And as every house is built really on, on, on your, on your basement. And if you look at it, so our base is really the members, it's really, it's really you. It's really the people on the ground in the field, and. Creating the network. And of course then you have the different pillars, where you say, okay, this is what I need to focus on. And the biggest really pillar we have is our standards. Um, we have different standards within the industry and the second one, and I know that we will come back to that later. So that's the reason why I'm now focusing on. So it's the standards. The second one is really intelligence. Intelligence is key. And um, especially Tap Me is proud to have the biggest intelligence platform in Europe, middle East, and Africa, which is also used as I said, by more than 300 police forces. And Europol. Within our region, we have more than 70,000 incidents. We have listed hotspots. We know exactly where the criminals are acted, and that's for us the most important thing. And last but not least, what is also quite important, oh, we have two more. Uh, but one is really training, Train the people, create a mindset change. Tell the people where the risk is, and tell them it's not you. Who is the target? It's the entire industry. Who's the target? So on Monday it's Apple. On Tuesday it's Microsoft. On Wednesday, it's still on Thursday it's hp. And on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, criminals enjoy life. They lay at the beach and they drink Cape. So that's really quite important to understand that, so. Every freaking industry is the target. Everybody can be the target. And it's not the question if you become a target, you know it's only the question when you will become the target because it's out of question that you will have losses. It's out of question that you will have an interruption within your supply chain. And that's exactly where we will focus on. It's the resilience part. And last but not least, as I already said, you know the members, the standards, Intelligence training, it's the networking opportunity. Why do you need to reinvent the deal when one of your peers, and I'm not saying competitors, because we are the security field, we are not the sales field, we are the security, we are the risk mitigation field where you need to ensure that you can mitigate the risk for your company to the lowest level possible. Okay. That's also quite important. If you look at it, we are 25 years on the market. And there's a reason for that. Of course we have tons of great products, amazing technology, but we still have a risk. And it's quite important to understand if you develop the newest technology in the world, criminals are developing another counter technology. You can have the best things in the world, uh, criminals are not following everything. What we do. If, if you are running an industry, if you are running a business as we all know, Um, you always need to follow ethics. You have southern requirements, you have a code of conduct, um, whatever it is, criminals, nope, they don't care. And that's really quite important. So with more than 878 companies supporting really top of Europe, middle East, Africa alone, we are growing every day.

Yoyo 7:25

Organized crime is on the up and you paint a really sobering picture of just the magnitude of what we need to be on top on as security specialists, but with organized crime on the rise, especially in Europe that I read recently, what are we gonna do about it?

Thorsten Numann 7:46

Yeah, it is very difficult, so let's be very open and honest. Um, our world is also very media driven, so whatever the media is saying, no, people trust it. And that's really something where, especially we are also driven by the politicians and cargo crime is really not a sexy crime. It's not big in the media. If you have a bank robbery today in Berlin, and the bank robbers will have like, say, 300 euro cash. It's in the media, it's everywhere, but at the same day, you have a hijack of a cargo truck somewhere in the same area that's 10 million euro. You won't see it, because it's not, as I said, it's not very, it's not very sexy, for the media. But what we can say is that, especially in the area where we are right now, especially in the scenario where we are right now, um, prizes are going up like crazy. Energy is going up like crazy prizes and. I would like to say that in Europe, but maybe also the rest of the world, we are coming closer and closer to a kind of a recession, which means organized criminals are really always increasing when times will go bad. Organized criminals are always more active than before. Um, If you look at the type of principles that's already said, I think what is the most important thing is really think about the possible scenarios, be prepared, um, think about in some cases really the scenarios you don't want to see. But let's be very open and honest. Over the last three years, we have seen so many crisis we've never seen before. Covid, so the trade war. The war on Ukraine, and unfortunately more will come. And this is exactly what we tell, the business leaders over the last 25 years. But what is also quite important is the same like with politicians, with media and with the business leaders. When we talk about security, when we talk about risk mitigation, when we talk about something, they do not want to hear that. Unfortunately, there's always an incident. Then they realize, oh, oh, we need security. So why do we always need an incident? Why is always something needed before people will wake up? Why can they not understand that? The proactive approach, and the aim to go for resilience is more important than any reactive approach. So why do I need to have a car or a hijack? Why do they need to be, really a big incident? No, mitigate your risk. It's the same, like you would never leave your car open at home, because it's in your mindset. You will close the door at your private house. Why? It's in your mindset. It's a daily routine, and that's exactly what people need to understand. Also, the business, yes, we need to sell stuff, of course, otherwise you're not successful as a businessman, but you also need to mitigate your risk.

Yoyo 10:32

But when you look back to the great train robberies of Este, your, there's always been a danger that, a valuable shipment going from A to B is gonna at some point be intercepted by bandits. But the organized criminals are a lot more organized now, aren't they? They have a lot more time, like you said, they don't have the governance to conform to. They don't have the regulations. They can even run businesses where all of their employees feel that they're in illegitimate business to have the plausible deniability and it's a lot more sophisticated now. So I love the fact that in your membership body, your members can feel very connected to getting the right information, sharing best practice, and just meeting the challenge with like minds. What's Tapper got coming up in the next year? Anything exciting?

Thorsten Numann 11:28

Yeah, absolutely. So if you look at this, if you look at the technology, and if you look also at my background working for the last 21 years really for high tech companies, um, I'm driving, especially the digitalization into the top of Europe, middle East, and Africa organization, and, What we will focus on in the near future is first of all, is really a so-called supply chain cybersecurity standard. We have tons of cyber standards, but unfortunately we do not have really a strong supply chain cybersecurity standard, which is really focused on the threats we have within the supply chain. Let me give you two examples on this one. We know. That the industry is going into a G P S tracking, but the criminals are going into more and better and more sophisticated jamming technology. They also go into spoofing technology. So, as I already mentioned, all these crazy technologies they do develop to really attack us on a way where, we cannot really, um, protect ourself in many directions. So what is also quite important related to the criminals is really, how they use the modern technology. And as you already said, we see. Cargo crime already from the beginning of the mankind. That's really quite important. We saw it was the train robberies. We saw it was the pirates, attacking the other ships, and now we see unfortunately, more and more modern technology. As already said, we are also investing into artificial intelligence. That's really quite important. So you will see, for example, that our training is using avatar technology. Why? Because now we can translate our training into 81 different languages on a very easy way. So let me give you also examples. Like if you look like. Jamming technology, if you look like the newest lock technology, as soon as you have this new technology, criminals are using the best jamming technology in the world. Of course it's not easy for you as a normal person to buy it in Europe, but you even do not need to go to something like a darkness. You order it. For example, in the Czech Republic, you order it in Poland, you can order it still in China, go to Alibaba, go to Flipkart in India. And a very good jamming technology costs you. It starts from running Europe. It's not the best one, but if you invest already two and a half or 4,000 euro, you can jam the entire street. There's no GPS anymore, there's no GSM anymore, and. If you would like to have some fun, go in front of a McDonald's restaurant or not. No, no names Go in front of the restaurant, switch on a jamer, and there's no activity anymore in the restaurant. Why? Because our technology, our world is based on wifi technology. There's no cables anymore, so everything is transmitted over the air, and jamming is a very easy technology. The technology is that you are screaming into a, into a room with a stronger signal. Then the signal they create, that's all what you do. So it's very easy, so the, the technology they use, it's a very easy technology. It's the same with spoofing. The only thing what you do is you mirror the signal and you make it stronger than the original signal. So, which means you believe that your product is at place, a and I tell you it's there, but in reality it's not there anymore. Cause it's already stolen, and that's what I'm doing. I'm using your technology, creating a strongest technology on top of it and destroy your tracking opportunity. Of course, now what the industry is doing, they create another technology. But for me, the best example is always when you go to the normal life, so look at pay tv. Okay? We know pay TV for the last 20 years. We started with little cards, like little sim cards, protected, R F I D cards, N F C cards, whatever it is, there's always a little ship on it. Criminals, were always in a position, to create something which will ensure that you can look. Cheaper or without any cost pay tv. So now it's the same technology and now it's really a streaming technology. So which means you see exactly the same what other people will see, but you see it with a timely day. It's again, it's a great technology. And if you look at the market right now, like for example, you can order a very nice gimmick right now from China, which is reading every ship in the world. So if you have an excess control card, I can read your excess control card. Yes, I need to have it physically in my hand for, let's say 30 seconds. But the biggest threat we have is the insider threat. 70% of all cargo losses are linked to insider knowledge. It doesn't. 70%. 70%, roughly 70%. Listening to insider knowledge, it doesn't mean it's your employee. It means that the employee is leaking information to the criminals they can use against you. Sometimes it's via social media because people are proud to transfer the newest iPhone. People are proud to say, Hey, I'm driving next week to the Mobile World Congress and I have the newest technology in my truck. And that's exactly what criminals are using. And at the second I have your car key, for example, keyless. Go another example. Man, what a great technology, new technology makes life easier, but not more secure.

16:36

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Yoyo 16:49

I have to say, I think, I think new technology makes life easier for criminals because we don't seem to at concept design in security well enough with everything. Do we?

Thorsten Numann 17:01

Yeah. Because it's not in the mindset, so why should an engineer think about security when he's thinking about customer experience? Because security always makes your life. I don't want to say harder, but a little bit more difficult. If I'm saying to you right now, if you still have a four digit pin, I can, I can break your pin within less than 30 seconds. If you still use a four digit pin, use at least a six digit pin. I will always recommend that you use an eight digit pin. Believe it or not, as you said it, you know what is the most common password still in the world? Four times zero password, or 1, 2, 3, 4, or the word password or your name. your birthday. It's crazy. It's easy stuff, but that's exactly the mindset change. That's exactly what people need to understand. It's exactly how the world is really now around us, again, which is very important. Modern technology makes life by far easier. Of course, I love keyless Go. It's the most unsecured system in the world. I can break into your car in less than 10 seconds. Start the car, steal the car, and you know what the best is. No damage to your car. 20 years ago, you always had damage. When people broke into your car, you had a smashed window. You had something dense in your door, whatever. Nowadays, no, because it's keyless, everything is easy.

Yoyo 18:20

I miss the eighties. You know when it was always the car radio being stolen in a smashed window. Correct?

Thorsten Numann 18:25

You actually, right. Nobody would steal a car radio anymore. Why? Because there's no market anymore. No. That's the point. But now they steal your airbags. They steal your catalysts, they steal everything because this is the market. Yeah, this is the big market right now. And what is quite important is really that even if you to believe, in let's say some of the European countries, like for example in Germany, you would say, yeah, but come on, who is buying a stolen pharmaceutical product? Yeah. Maybe not in Germany, maybe not in the uk, maybe not in Denmark, but in Nigeria and South Africa. In Burkina Faso, wherever you want. There's a huge market. There's a huge market on that. It's the same like with old tires or catalysts. As I said, it's not a big market in Europe, but there's a huge market in the Middle East. There's a huge market in Asia, and that's what people need to understand. Globalization, it's amazing, it's a, it's an amazing opportunity for the industry, but it's a, it's a significant risk and that's also what people need to understand. it's really something where, A lot of people, a lot of the industry leaders do not think about it. They do not really think about, as I said,, that's the biggest benefit of Tapout. We have an end-to-end supply chain. We have everybody involved. We are not specifically looking at the trucking part or the ocean part, or the logistics part. No. We are sitting together the same table. It's the manufacturer, it's the logistic service provider. It's even the end retailer. It's the consumer. Why? Cause we all are in the same boat and that's what people need to understand.

Yoyo 19:59

I mean, pirates have been around again for centuries and have been the content of many a great movie. But, what's it like now with ocean shipping what's that like at the moment? Is are we able to manage it better or is it all about avoidance and not going into certain hotspot areas? I

20:16

think

Thorsten Numann 20:16

it's a both, I think it's a mix of both. as we all know, there was a, a couple of years ago we had significant challenges at the coast of Romania and we also had other challenges, and, um, but I must say, especially in the ocean industry, a lot of the nations will support you. So you have big army vessels, supporting you. You have a lot of technology and. It's not easy to attack the big ocean vessel. But again, time will show us, because risk is changing every day. And what is interesting really is if you look at some of the extreme cases, if you look at the case where you see an, an entire train being hijacked by criminals, and then you ask yourself the question, how is that impossible? How can you hijack an entire cargo train? It's, how can you hijack an entire car aircraft? You as a normal person, you would say, no, no, no. That's not possible. It is possible, yeah. How's it possible that criminals are jumping on a driving truck on a German highway? It's driving. It never stopped. It was loaded. It was driving in Germany, 800 kilometers. It never ever stopped, and it arrived at the final Destin destination, and it's empty. It's completely empty. And then you ask yourself the question, how is that even possible? And what I always saying also to the business people, I say, Hey, what's Hollywood movies? Everything. What you see there is already there. Believe it or not. Mission impossible is possible, and what you see there also is modern technology. It's the same with with cyber attacks, hacker attacks. I would love to meet only once the Nigerian prince who was giving me 5 million Euros,

Yoyo 21:55

I know, you're not the only one. I've got several princes that contact me regularly to tell me, uh, that I'm owed lots of monies and I don't, I don't, I just delete, don't think for one minute,

Thorsten Numann 22:07

believe it or not, but it's true. Who, for this stuff, yes, but it's still there. That's the reason why they're still doing it. And you know what? Now they're going into other technology. Now they contact you on WhatsApp. Now they contact you on social media and now they say to you, oh, no, no, no. I only need this. And then I can give you that. Yes. Yeah, yeah. This is exactly the risk we are carrying every freaking day. I've

Yoyo 22:30

seen this new thing on Facebook, and it's usually in all of the buying and selling, uh, pages, the local buying and selling, and people keep providing links. Uh, they've got profiles with no friends, so they're brand new. They're literally just what you call spoof profiles. And they want you to click on a link because if you do, you are gonna get this free gift bag or you're gonna get, and they're using big names like Asda. Yep. Here is a massive supermarket chain, Walmart. Um, recognizable brands 250 and they're using dollars, which is the big giveaway because I think here in the UK as well, we're pretty, sort of aware now of these scams that say you can earn$1,200 a week when that's not the currency that we have in this country. But click on this link. And, and again, it's, I wish there was more regulation. I wish there were more filters to. Because I find myself blocking these individuals cuz I don't want them popping up on my feed, but I'm blocking them and I'm thinking, why aren't there more filters to detect this kind of anomaly within the system to stop it getting through to potentially vulnerable, gullible end users.

Thorsten Numann 23:40

Mm-hmm. I think the biggest challenge on this one, again, is really, so what do you want? What do you want as a company? You want that people use your. Product. That's what you want. And of course, criminals will always use it, against you as you said. Like, the, the big stuff on, oh, now you can buy the newest Nike shoe, for 2 99, because it's our opening deal, and believe it or not, people click on it. Yeah. And I'm like, No one in the world can sell you this shoe for this price. There's no way. It's, it's, it's a scan. It's very easy. Yeah. But now think about the new technology as already said. So we are now testing artificial intelligence and I don't know if you did it already. Check, check P, check really some of the stuff. What's on the market right now? Yeah. We are right now checking our avatar technology. And I must say five years ago you saw it's in avatar. You really saw it. You had this little kind of hiccups, where you saw, okay, it's the same, it's very easy. Or like two years ago, when we saw this, how do you call it? Um, when celebrities, were in movies, they've never been, yeah.

Yoyo 24:42

They fake dig fake. Oh, scary. That

Thorsten Numann 24:44

is so scary. I call it already. Wait, one more year. It's not deep fake anymore. It's real fake. Mm-hmm. It's really real. You cannot see it anymore. I need your voice for five minutes. Yeah. I need your video for two minutes and I can create A perfect avatar out of this. Yeah. And you even won't realize it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I'm asking myself the question, what will happen in a German court? When you are sitting there and you've been confronted with a video where you say something you never said. Yeah. And the technology is so amazing, and if you look at, go back 10 years, go back 20 years, technology was developed, over a period of time. Now this the speed of the technology, it's crazy.

Yoyo 25:31

But like you, I can see that massively disrupting the criminal system. The criminal justice system, because the onus is gonna be on your ability to provide credible witnesses, independent witnesses, as to your location, because the video, could be so artificially produced. Yep. Which is why it's then that leads me very quickly and very excitingly onto this kind of like the whole Trump piece where, you know, anything he says, he's got this huge amount of following of people that will believe it. It doesn't matter what happens, he can call it out as fake and there'll be a huge amount of people that believe it and that influence, it's, it's just pretty scary, really, that even as a rational, sensible person, you can find yourself thinking. Did we really go to the moon? Yeah. Look, I believe we did, don't get me wrong, but you find yourself thinking, is it possible someone could have made that up? You start to just, I don't know if that's just critical thinking. Yep. Or being open to other ideas and theories. Yep. But there are, there are people who are all too ready believing the things they

Thorsten Numann 26:34

shouldn't. I agree with you. Absolutely. And this is for me, also one of the biggest risks. Cause especially now, we always have the generations, we have generations, which were growing up wise, you're still at physical loss, you know exactly what, that's what I mean was the mindset change. That's exactly what I mean was that people need to understand that and the next. One to five years. We carry it by far higher risk when we talk about modern technology, and we still use the password. Password, and we still use the four digit 0, 0, 0, 0. I hope that the next generation is more sensitive on this one, and I hope that the next generation is more sensitive on sharing personal data. Right now, I must say, I don't want to say there is no hope, but there's always hope. But I must say this is not what I'm seeing. Okay. And with the new technology, and I'm a geek, I really, I love technology. I have tons of technology at my house, but even I'm sometimes like, oh my goodness, what the risk is behind this technology. It's crazy. And we tested some stuff where I was already saying, you know what, oh man, this is not fun anymore. And as I said, and I don't want to say the product name, but I have a very small device. As I told you, and I can read all your credit card information within second. I love people, when they have, oh, I don't have a physical lock anymore in my house. I have now this. Little keypad, and I have my four digit, four digit pin to open my house, and I'm like, oh, perfect. Give me 10 seconds and I'm in mouth. Yes. And then, oh, what do you mean with that? Yeah. As I said, modern technology you think makes your life easier, but not more secure. I

Yoyo 28:13

have a phrase, and I can't remember where I got this from, but I use it a lot, especially when I deliver keynote speeches and I say, look, half the world is paranoid and the other half of the world is using password as password. Yes.

Thorsten Numann 28:25

And you're right, you have right on this one. And um, this is the world we are living in.

Yoyo 28:33

So what's the next big threat? Let's do a little bit of horizon scanning. What's coming up do you think? On the spot. Question Thorsten. Yeah, I think, I think

Thorsten Numann 28:42

we will always see physical threats, with the organized criminals. As already said. We will always see cargo crime, but I think the next big thing is really, um, going into everything, what is linked to cyber. It's really going into credit card fraud, usage, fraud. As I said already, for me it's not deep fake anymore. It's real fake technology. Artificial intelligence will change the world. We can do whatever we want. Artificial intelligence. Computer power, will change the world. It's crazy if you see how fast, the microprocessor technology is really developing. It's, it's completely changing the world. If you look at the quality of, of fake videos, if you look at the quality of fake news, it's, the quality is so good. I always say to all my friends, don't check this. Don't go there. Check at least three news channels, but don't do me a favor. I still ask myself the question why some of these platforms are called social media. Cause for me, this has nothing to do with social, very antisocial. It is an antisocial media, and I'm sorry to say it, but yeah, I would, I'm, I'm, I never say never, but I will never check really social media for news. And I'm always checking at least two or three different channels, before I would say, yep. Even Germany, I'm sorry to say it, we have two different news channels. Two big ones, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Hundreds. Yeah. But we have two big ones. Yeah. I'm not saying you cannot trust them, but listen at least to

Yoyo 30:08

one more. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. I, um, I was reading recently about insurance, so insurance is becoming a huge issue and I'm gonna talk to you about where insurance fits within the Tappa supply chain and with all of your members and their clients and suppliers and providers because we know of late where, where there have been incidents of flooding. Homes can't have insurance. We now know certainly in America and Australia where there are, uh, hotspot areas for fires. Those beautiful homes are now no longer able to be insured. We've also, and I have got a podcast coming up with a, a very good peer who talks about insurance in the cybersecurity industry and how insurable a business is. If it falls, fail to ransomware, attacks, loss of personal data without having, um, And I think this is yet to be agreed, a standard of data protection and information security within the business processes and procedures. So,. A business we know will more needing to prove itself if it hasn't got basic cybersecurity essentials. It hasn't got a great information security framework and it hasn't got great policies around cybersecurity. So we know that's a huge area and the podcast I have coming out. We'll be talking about how, that particular peer of ours had to co contact 20 companies to get insured, and he's an expert. Now we're looking at the supply chain and organized crime. How do you see insurance shaping and changing the business practices that we're gonna need to be adopted to remain viable?

Thorsten Numann 31:55

Yeah, I think. We already, we already have the situation that some insurance companies are saying, I don't want, or I do not want to insure your products anymore. And I don't insure your shipments anymore because my risk is too high. We have it, it's already there, so for example, one of the biggest insurers in the world, Lloyds of London. They announced more than 15 years ago already. I will never, ever insure smartphone shipments because the risk is too high. They changed because the industry is changing because they said, oh, Tappas doing a great job, to mitigate the risk. But I, if you look at the future, I would say that more and more companies face exactly the same risk as you said it with Australia or the flooding areas where insurance companies will tell you. I will insure you. It costs you a fortune, um, and otherwise, especially if you talk about cyber risk, but also with cyber crime. So insurance is of course, is the last step of risk mitigation. It will never recover your products, or not quite often if you have a cyber attack, what is your biggest loss? It's your data, it's your knowledge. Do you, will you recover it? No. What is your insurance covering? Potentially, it's your business impact, but your products, your information, your knowledge is gone. It's out of your hand. It's the same like, and of course it's a strategy. When you have a big fire, your house is burning down. It's your house still there? No, your house is not there anymore. You lost everything. You lost all your personal belongings. You lose everything. What is your insurance paying to rebuild your house? Nevertheless, if you've ever been a victim of one burglary, you will change your life. Insurance will cover it. Of course, they will repair your window again. They will hopefully, give you the money back for your TVs, your other stuff. But your life will change because you became a victim of a crime. And that's what people need to understand. So I think the insurance market is, um, also, a big change. And we will see more changes, of course, because the risk is changing.

Yoyo 34:02

Yeah, uh, I, I get that completely. And I love your phrase, insurance is the last step of risk mitigation. I mean, I get that it's so simple, but just to hear it in those words, there are so many more steps Oh yeah. That practitioners need to be putting in place before insurance becomes something to lean on. Although I think sometimes I think organizations can be really scared to not have insurance. Um, and that's gotta be pretty tough, hasn't it? So what, so, so does a business' operations in respect of risk mitigation change because they haven't got insurance? What more do they do because they haven't got insurance?

Thorsten Numann 34:40

It's like becoming a member, in a local gym or a fitness club, you go there, you are very enthusiastic. You pay and after four weeks you stop and after 12 months you realize that you still pay. Is it better for you? Yeah, you still pay money, but you don't lose weight. Why? Because you're not active, proactive. Think about it. I always compare also, as I said, and you, I think you realize that already. Um, and now I realize how old I am already. So 40 years ago, or 35 years ago, let's make it this way. We had big advertisements in German tv, buckle up before you drive. Buckle up. Yes, buckle up. You had those two. Yeah, it

Yoyo 35:17

stopped, right? I was, I was in the uk it was called Clunk,

Thorsten Numann 35:20

click. Yeah. We, and, and Germany was called, uh, the zip in it's very, but we called it Buckle up. Buckle up, and, and as I said, now you need it anymore. No, because it's in your mind, exactly. The first thing I do before I start my car, I buckle it up, and that's exactly what people need to understand. And my, I hope that the politicians will understand. We need to do more, especially related to modern technology and the threat of social media and the threat of really cyber crime and the threat of artificial intelligence, because now is the time, otherwise it's too late.

35:56

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Yoyo 36:55

And also, the law enforcement can't fix everything, but I do think that the, the penalties need to be a lot higher and a lot stronger and a lot more serious. It's a bit like this, we, we always have somebody come up on the neighborhood community and will say, guys, there's some people were going around checking car door handles on the street last night. And I just, I put this comment there and I realized this could be fairly flippant and it's not me to be flippant, but I said, look. The reason these groups walk around neighbors checking car doors is because some Muppets don't lock their cars. Correct. If they tried a hundred days in a row and didn't get into one car, they'd give up. Correct. So the, and even in relation to our own personal environments, the more cameras you have, motion sensors, the ability to see activities that surreptitiously going on in your neighborhood, your property keeping neighbors. Connected with activities going on. Communicating Well, these are all things we have a responsibility to do to protect our, our livelihoods and our, and our assets. But gone are the days where, we could leave cars and windows and doors open and then expect the police to catch the criminal. It's a very different environment. The pressure has become very much on us to put in as many mitigation layers. And a lot of us are doing it very naturally. Like you said, the mitigation layer where you get in the car is to put your seatbelt on the mitigation layer when you leave the houses to lock the house and double check the handle, make sure it's definitely secure. And I think businesses have the same responsibility, don't they, to do the same because it's not just down to law enforcement anymore. It almost feels like all of the responsibility is on the owner of the asset. To do everything they can to protect it. Um, and, and that's just, I think that's the only way to be right now. But I wish the penalties were a lot more severe.

Thorsten Numann 38:47

A hundred percent agree, and you're absolutely right on this one. That's also another reason why car criminals are very, very active, because the penalties are very low. Yes, the risk is very low. The penalties are very low compared to other activities where organized criminals are also active. So it's a very, very aggre, very attractive business model for.

Yoyo 39:05

Yeah. Not for me though. I've never been on the Darth Vry side myself. I'm always more on the

Thorsten Numann 39:11

Jedi side. Absolutely. Cause we are the Luke Skywalkers and you're absolutely right. We are the Joda and we are not going into the Kins or the Darth waders. You're absolutely right.

Yoyo 39:20

100%. So finally, Thorson, you're incredibly engaging to talk to. I can see why being the president of TAPA is a really good role for you. What keeps you awake at night?

Thorsten Numann 39:33

That's, that's, that's always a great question. Um, I think right now it's really more, really, I have three kids, I'm married, I have three kids, so I have a boy, a devil, and a terrorist. And what keeps me up at night is really like, where's the world going to, okay, what can I do to prepare my kids for the future? And that's really keeps me up at night, so it's really. What, what can we do to prepare the next generation, to really become more engaged and again, create a mindset change. The world is great, technology is great, but really accept the risk we are in and the risk is different when you are living in a nice little neighborhood where I'm living or if I'm going to Johannesburg and South Africa. Yeah. But when you accept it and when you really. Create it in your own mind and accept the risk. The word is still great. Even Johannesburg is amazing. I love it. I love Sao Paulo. It's everything is high risk countries, high risk cities. Accept the risk and really go into a direction where you say, Hey, if I accept it, the world is great.

40:49

What you've just heard is my first conversation with Torsten Newman. At the security circle due to high demand, we didn't get a chance to publish his podcast before the TAPUR MEA Amsterdam conference, which happened last week. So we made an arrangement for me to catch up with him again, after the tackle conference. To see how it went. And this is what he said

Yoyo 41:13

Torsten. You've just had the Tapper conference. How did it go?

Thorsten Numann 41:18

It was amazing and it was, I'm still speechless, I must say. I'm really, I, I, I, I'm even so emotional related to last week because, um, after really 23 years now, um, doing conferences, this was, I would like to say one of the best, we're not even the best conference we ever had. Uh, we had 550 registrations, roughly 526 really professionals showed up at the conference, which took place last week on Wednesday and Thursday. Um, we had really an outstanding speaker set up. And, um, I must say also the, the gm, the feedback, if you look at the external speakers or the speakers really representing tapa, Europe, middle East, and Africa as an association, um, was really, really, really intense. Of course, networking, networking, networking is one of the biggest things. And last but not least, um, the cocktail event was an amazing success. The feedback was also great here, and we finalized our conference, um, was a big surprise even for me. So I had no clue that this will take place. But we had an amazing tapper EMEA firework at the end of the conference. Um, and a as it's really, it, it's always this kind of stuff, small things. Makes the difference. Um, if you look at also, the discussions we had, if you look at the feedback from, yeah, law enforcement agencies or ministries, or Europol was there very good feedback. The I I U, so the International Root Union and Luca was there, very good feedback, but also an amazing presentation from her. You will see some follow ups of course, um, related to the conference. Uh, you will see also a special Vigilant magazine, which will purely focus on the conference, including all the speeches. Everything will be on our Tappa Europe release in Africa, YouTube channel Pretty soon. And, um, we all, we, we even showed that we are resilient, um, because one of our speakers, um, was not in a position really to come, or he was there already. Uh, but he was forced to leave within one hour and we immediately had a, had a backup and the backup jumped in and gave an amazing presentation, which was Marco Feldberg from Computer Vice. So, our lottery, and that's for us also very important. Um, we always have a lottery where the members, because we spend two days in a very nice environment, we have a nice hotel, we have nice food, we have nice drinks, so we always donate something. And, we spend 10,000 euro to the Linda the mall. Association and I'm pretty sure we made even more money this time, which we will donate next time. So, which is always great to give something to the people and really to the young generation, which are not in a situation where we are. and really challenge, uh, and challenging situation. So from that point of view, As I said, I'm still, I'm temporized, I'm still temporized from last week. I'm still completely emotional. Um, and it was really an amazing event.

Yoyo 44:09

Do you think that since Covid, uh, certainly when it comes to in-person networking, everyone's just getting a lot more out of it now, So before it was like same old, but since Covid happened, It's just you, you come away and you just feel like there's immense satisfaction that it was really worthwhile.

Thorsten Numann 44:27

We had a great discussion with some people, and I must say, um, since Covid, there's one thing I don't like anymore. Um, compared to prior to Covid, I think traveling by airplanes, uh, Really sketchy nowadays, and I don't know why, but it's really crazy. Yeah, you're right. Before Covid, everyone was relaxed. I'm like, what, what the heck happened?

Yoyo 44:47

Covid happened and all of a sudden flying became a process. And it isn't something that we do that's fun anymore. And when I had a chat to Carolyn Pearson around travel, I, we, we had this very same conversation. I said that the travel companies, the travel operators, the plane companies, they need to make travel fun again because we've lost the fun out of it. It's just become the process that we all have to go through and

Thorsten Numann 45:11

it's not nice. I agree with you and I totally agree, and therefore, Our conference was not a process. Our conference was so emotional and people really loved it. To see, to see people again after, after I'm, I don't wanna say after a couple of years because we had a conference last year, which was also great success, but we had a lot of people, which were not in a position to come last year, but they've been there this year. And of course this was really a kind of a completely game changer. And, Webinars are okay. Live stuff is okay. Virtual conferences are okay. We must have them and we will, the world is changing on this one and it's crystal clear that the world will change also, but it will never replace, um, a networking opportunity, which is a face-to-face one where you see each other, where you hug each other, where you drink together, where you party together, where you dance together, whatever it is. I'm stopped now, right here. Um, but it's really this kind of. Emotions. I strongly believe you will be not in a position to do it virtually. But again, a virtual firework, I think it's completely different than a live firework, a virtual music is great. The life band was amazing. It was amazing to see really, that people were so relaxed and really enjoyed the time one of the biggest things you know, I've ever really had was that I was approached by two other industry associations we worked with for quite a long time, and both of them came to me and they said to me, Tosin, what can we do? To ensure a similar kind of energy and this kind of stuff, at our conferences, and I said it's very difficult because it's the culture and we created this culture, this culture of. Trust this culture of really, um, temporized energy, over the last 23 years. And this is the biggest point. And I told them, crystal, yeah. I said it's really, it's a mindset change what you need to drive, towards the culture you want to achieve, but again, it was great and I would really love that you share all the information and, um, if there are questions, we are always here to answer them.

Yoyo 47:09

Brilliant. Torsten Newman, president of Tapper. Thank you so much for joining us on Security Circle.

Thorsten Numann 47:16

Thanks for the great opportunity.