EP 026 Miranda Coppoolse, From Victim to Rescuer: A Heroine's Journey In The Shadows

Miranda is a leading international operating security and behavioral analyst with over 25 years of experience.

She has been an awarded Global Security Influencer for Security and Fire (via IFSEC) in June 2021 and for the International Security Journal in December 2022. 

She is the Founder of MC Global Security Consulting and the co-founder of Salus Operational. 

Next to that she serves as a Board member on several international Boards and is active on various international security groups and networks. 

Her free time she volunteers to fighting human trafficking by assisting various organizations, globally.

Miranda is well known for her leadership, coaching and trainings for various international organizations and industries. She has an extensive background in working with law enforcement, executive & close protection, aviation, counter human trafficking, counter terrorism, humanitarian, corporate and private security organizations.

During her career, she has lived around the globe, gaining a broad understanding of numerous languages and cultures. Over the years she has built a large valuable international network and following.

Her core business focuses on:

• Behavioral Analysis: Advice and Training.

• Psychological Threat Assessment Analysis reports.

• Confidential Mentoring & Coaching Services
• Counter Human-Trafficking Education
• Behavioral detection and negotiation training 
• Forensic Interviewing

• Investigation Analysis and Interrogation Support
• Close Protection assistance

• Insider Threat and Fraud Advisory and Training.
• Physical, Corporate and Aviation security

• Security Risk Assessment Analysis
• Behavior Analysis implementation for Security, Risk & Contingency plans 
• HEAT (Hostile Environment Awareness Training)

Miranda obtained various diploma's and certificates from the following:
Dutch Police Force, Royal Netherlands Military Police, Ministry of Justice and Security, Maritime Academy, Wesleyan University, Leiden University, International Institute of Certified Forensic Investigation University of South Florida, Professionals, ALIVE, ISRM and more...

For a more detailed description of her experiences and company services, you are welcome to visit her LinkedIn profile or company website https://mcglobalsecurity.com/founder

https://www.linkedin.com/in/miranda-coppoolse-025b0032/

Details of organisations Miranda supports to find out more or donate to:
https://www.salusops.org/about 
https://www.theasservoproject.org 
https://www.joy.org 

Security Circle ⭕️  is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

0:00

Hi. Usually when I interview guests on the security circle podcast. I always have a chat with them beforehand. To scope out their story, their journey. And what motivates them. When I first spoke to Miranda we had a very, very good Frank in-depth conversation. But it was only in the recording session. That she told me her whole story. And it literally took my breath away. She's very brave. She's a sensational woman actually. And her story. Her journey. Was just phenomenal. I hope you enjoy this podcast

Yoyo 1:05

Hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. If PO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers. We are dedicated to providing meaningful education and certification for all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference to our members mental health and wellbeing. Don't forget to give us a like on whatever platform you are listening to us on. It really matters to us. Also, if you check out our website, www.ifpo.org, you can sign up and receive our podcast each week and never miss them. Our audience is global, so wherever you are around the world. Thank you so much for joining me. My special guest today is in the Netherlands in Amsterdam. She is Miranda Ka Polso and she's a behavioral analyst with a focus on security protection and combating human trafficking, and we will be discussing her career achievements and challenges today. Welcome Miranda to the Security Circle podcast.

Miranda 2:06

How you doing? Hi. Thank you so much for having me on. It's it's an absolute honor. Thank you.

Yoyo 2:13

Now, I honestly, I've been really looking forward to this. Human trafficking is a big subject. I know. We're gonna come on and talk about that very shortly. A light is gonna come on, I would say in relation to some of the things we can learn from you about human trafficking. First of all, look, you know, I know you're into martial arts. I know you haven't done it sort of massively competitively, but a lot of people that I talk to about martial arts, they seem to find the discipline is very good for their careers. how is martial arts good for you?

Miranda 2:42

In so many ways just to control so many How do you say that? Sometimes you just wanna blur things out and you know, I learned over time because I'm quite blunt, just not to do that just due to martial arts, but that's one of the many reasons. So, of course, I find that especially girls from childhood on should do one, at least one form of martial arts just to, you know, be safe or be like a surprise, let's say. I mean, men usually overall or have much more strength, but if you can be a surprise to them hopefully it gives you some time to to get away. one of the reasons I really did it. And of course, due to my work and due to my past, I found that I needed to, yeah, take care of myself. The best I can. Let's say not like, a Thai Box or Kraft Maga Wonder woman.

Yoyo 3:44

To some you will be for sure. But to your point about, you know, young girls doing a martial art, gosh, I think if there was anything that I regret in life, it's not doing that when I was in school, because there have been so many times that I've been on the tube and some guys inappropriately touched me and I kind of just wanted to do one of those really slick John Wick moves and go, oops. Oh, I'm sorry. Have you tripped over? Do you know what I mean? I'd like a very special skillset for things like that, for situations like that, you know? Yeah. And I guess, does it give you more confidence to, to

Miranda 4:19

know that you can? I think that's it. I think it's the confidence. Not that I'm never afraid though. I mean, I end up in the most crazy situations and trust me, I'm afraid many times in my life, and I have been, and still I'm sure in the future will be. But it helps. And I also know, especially from talking with so many murderers and serial killers throughout my past, and also traffickers because I interview them as well, just because I'm fascinated by what's going on in their brain as a behavioral analyst. But they just pick their victims even on the streets by the way you walk. So the more confident you are, even, you know, subconsciously, you just have a certain. Air over you. I don't know. Certain behavior, certain posture, let's say that make them think twice before they come and attack you. Yeah,

Yoyo 5:14

they're almost incredibly good profilers, aren't they? Because they're profiling your vulnerabilities like literally in a snapshot. there are some techniques. In fact, I only know about this, I only know about this because we did another podcast with, a man called Andy Neil, and he is an ex-military professional. He's set up his own company, his own business. And he's just recently at the, kind of at our age in life just done a master's degree. And he chose, non-verbal body language as his dissertation. And in the podcast he talks about some simple things you can do, which I never knew about. That just tells one of those predators, not me. You know? Not me. But I think you've dropped a really interesting hook there, which I have to pick up on. You've talked about just now talking to murderers. Is there any particular case, I mean, you're a bit of a mind hunter expert. I dunno if you've ever seen that series. Love it. But tell me about a murderer that you've spoken to and what serial crime movies and TV programs do you

Miranda 6:17

watch? Well, honestly, I don't watch a lot of TV because I'm really busy and I find a lot of things on television very negative. So I try to avoid that because I am encountering so many negative stuff in my work already. So I wanna do happy things when I'm free. But And also most of detective series are not really like how it is in real life. I agree. So it's kind of frustrating when you are watching it if you are in Yes. Already. If you've been there, you probably know all about that. Yes.

Yoyo 6:54

Yeah. Yeah. I remember when I was in police training and we had the bill on, and this was a serial drama that was on every, it was a lot, on a lot. And it had been on for years, and they were arresting somebody in the program and we all went, that's not a lawful arrest.

Miranda 7:10

So we kind of saw through it as soon

Yoyo 7:12

as we started going through police training. But yeah. So, so tell us about, you know, what intrigues you when you're talking to murderers?

Miranda 7:20

Well, I just wanna know. Specifically what's going on in their head? Why are they capable of doing it? And why do they come up with that in the first place? And I've learned over the 30 years that I'm doing this now, that most people are not born evil. Of course, some people are born a bit wicked. But most of them it's because of the way they grew up and the things they've encountered especially, but we will get through that in the trafficking world. But yeah especially during my policing time and and as a profiler also in, in all those years I've spoken to so many people and one of the I can call him a serial killer. I cannot mention his name really because there's still another case going on for as far as I know, after all those years. So he's been in and out prison. He has some good lawyers but that guy had 25 murders on his name already and a kidnapping. the fact was I was expecting the most evil person to talk with, right? And I came there and then was sitting down and talking to him, and it was just like talking to. One of, you know, the guys in the field even, or you know, on the streets, it's just an Everest guy with a lot of humor. and I was like, oh my gosh, I can so imagine that you fall for his talks. Yes, he charming. Some people are just magnificent, I have to say. And just bonding with people. And that's the way they alert our victims into, you know, their trap. Yeah.

Yoyo 9:00

I think it's been quite widely documented, isn't it? That people who kill are also incredibly charming. It's one of the traits that they have in well, think of Bondi. Yeah. He's another classic example. Yeah. Sociopathy is about almost manipulating other people, isn't it? By the signals and body language that you use. Yeah. Yeah. I think as we grow up, we kind of form this image in our head that people that do bad things must just be bad people and they must just be totally evil. I dunno if that's just our human way of coping with it. So when they're charming and nice to you, how did you deal with that in that situation? Do you remember what you were feeling?

Miranda 9:41

Do I remember how Yes. I do remember that I was thinking almost loudly, like, how can a nice guy like you do such evil things be in a prison like this? Yeah. Right. Yeah. But yeah, eventually you can see the way they answer. They have a slightly different way of of, I don't know, expressing their emotions almost. Like if it's sometimes with a delay or a bit too early. and always that little smirk. On their face as if it doesn't face them in a way. So, and also playing the innocent, you know, if, or, you know, giving the, putting the blame on the victim kind of. So eventually, of course, I knew the whole story and I met with a couple of few times so you can see a certain process that they are going through when they are planning whatever they are, you know, due to get person. But yeah, it was yeah, I have to say some people are just easy to talk with. Some are just absolutely scary to talk with. Of course. I've also spoken to a guy that his imprisoned lifelong now he was, he's convicted for terrorism. And. He was just wicked and scary, just had a certain vibe around him that makes you feel uncomfortable. How would you describe that? The vibe? Almost hostile. Yeah. Like, as who do I think, you know, come talking to that person and almost their pride of, you know, speaking about what they've done just because people have another religion or, you know, because this was about terrorism and in this case it was a guy with a Muslim faith. But any extreme. Because again I just know so many amazing Muslim people, they are super kind. Yeah. And they absolutely are discussed by what the extreme people do. Of course. Yeah. So, and a lot of victims, as we can see all over the world are a lot of people, a lot of Muslim people are victim, I have to say of, you know, all the terrorism. So, yeah, we have to be aware, just not put them all under the same umbrella because they're not, and that as a behavioral analyst, I just really try to see the distinguish yeah, to distinguish, let's say the difference. You've

Yoyo 12:16

described two very different types of criminals really haven't you? You've talked about one who is very sociopathic and the other one who is radicalized. And they display different behavior. Behaviors between them, don't they? Would you say that it's quite clear cut or have you spoken to and been in contact with some other killers who have had completely contrasting behaviors for the crimes they've committed? I would

Miranda 12:44

then say more that, that would be the traffickers we eventually commit murder. Yes. They have again, another and yeah, just another demeanor even. Right. You know, they're all completely different people, but all with the same goal that anything that they feel is, you know, not okay for them to be in their world just need to be eliminated. For whatever reason. So, and we're

Yoyo 13:14

gonna talk about the sort of the psychological makeup of a human trafficker very shortly. I remember being in Police interview cells as a young detective and I interviewed a man who had tried to run over a female police officer. He literally tried to kill her. And I was speaking to him about an unrelated offense, actually disk driving, which was an a rare opportunity to see if we could get some closure on that case. And he just literally, after I secured his name on the recording tape solicitor was with him. We went through his name, date of birth, confirmed who he was, and then he literally leaned forward to me and he said in a minute, I'm going to punch your effing teeth out. And I looked at the solicitor who kind of wanted to crawl through the gap in his chair. And then I looked at the defendant and I said, right then we'll leave it there. Shall we

Miranda 14:10

actually

Yoyo 14:10

called an end to the meeting? Yeah. And I was keeping an eye on the panic

Miranda 14:15

button in the room thinking this guy's gonna leap at me any

Yoyo 14:18

minute. And it was genuinely, even though I was in a police station, the most terrifying experience I'd ever had in relation to apprehending, you know, immediate and unlawful violence. How have you been in any sort of situation before? It might even be in your police career, for example, where you've just genuinely thought, okay, this is it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be hurting very soon.

Miranda 14:42

Ah yeah., I've been in, in fights of course, but Thankfully I had amazing officers who were backing me up, or I was backing them up in any way I could because, I was a chief at that time. So we were not really allowed to be that operational, but I tried to be with my people as much as I could. But yeah, I remember a fight at a courthouse where we had someone in, we have those courthouse prisons before they, you know, go to the judge and all that stuff. So, yeah, and I don't remember I don't recall exactly what cost the rage, probably the long waiting times. But yeah, we eventually got into a fight and I remember having a tie that one of those clip ties. Because of course we don't have the ties that you tie around your neck because they can strangle you with it. So I remember the person took the clip tie and then the team came in. We pressed him in backed into his cell, went out after a fight, of course. And Dan eventually, I remember I had my tie, but the little iron clip was missing that man be because they could, they are so inventive, they can make like little knives and whatever, you know, out of that or so we had to get in again into a cell with an aggressive guy. And we went in and eventually found a little clip. But he gave it his all and yeah, I was quite bruised, I have to say. But yeah, things sometimes need to happen, right? You cannot give that to them because they bring it back to jail and. You dunno what they're going to do with it. So, so look,

Yoyo 16:27

tell us why you joined the police. A lot of people have very distinctive reasons for joining the police and a lot of people who know me know that I was very triggered by nine 11 and just wanted to change the direction of my life. And I joined the police 11 months after nine 11. What motivated you to go into such a brutal job?

Miranda 16:49

Well then I have to take it one step even further back because I actually, I was working in retail for many years before as a country manager. I was running a couple of shops and it was just not my thing anymore. And back in those days, she didn't have a security department that was in the nineties early nineties. And I was like, you know, I just need to do something else. And I had a pest of a lot of violence myself, my personal pest. It's not a secret. A lot of people know it, but I'm not really like very open about it. But I have been part of a trafficking gang, which I didn't know about. I was I had a challenging childhood and eventually met the wrong people. Ended up in the wrong group. Well, all the horror that you can imagine that they can do to a girl. I went through and eventually I escaped a kidnapping. I came out and I remember being in a shelter home and looking at all the females and mothers and children really. And I was like, I don't wanna end up like them all, you know, traumatized and hard to build a future because of their grieve and their trauma. And so I was like I need to turn this around and yeah, do something good with it, with my experiences, because otherwise every, all my escape was for nothing. And all the horror wa ha, you know, was for nothing. And then they won. And I just didn't want them to win. So all the inside knowledge that I eventually had, I thought could be, you know, if I just worked on that eventually help the people getting away from those trafficking groups or criminal groups or gangs But anyways, when I left the shelter, I met a guy, he was a detective. And we started, you know, dating for many years. Eventually it didn't work out, but we are still good. and probably it cost because of my trauma that I was still dealing with, of course, at the time. I just knew I needed to get out of the retail and do something in security just to, you know, try to at least, even if it was for one person, make a difference in the life. And then an acquaintance of mine came to me and he said you know, we have a special group at the airport and. It's for high risk clients. We do profiling and you know, we need a lot of people now for that because the world is changing. So, I went there and, but because I've been a manager for like a couple of stores for I don't know how many employees I was, and with all the respect by the way I could not go back to just being a security agent because I was so, used to, you know, help and support and take care of other people. Plus I had not a six, but a 7 cent to everything I've went through. So after a couple of months I was like, you know, maybe I shouldn't do this because I'm every time seeing things that, you know, are being missed. Little threats or signs. So eventually I just wanted to quit. And then, a guy walked up to me and he said I am so and so, and he was an Israeli guy and I'm from that internet organization and we really would like you to come join us. But because you're not an Israeli, you cannot apply. But we scout people who we find interesting to work with. So well, long story short, I eventually did that. So I became a profiler and that is now I'm talking about 25 years or something ago when it was not even a thing. It's now very like you have the predictive profiling and they have so many names for it now. So, yeah, I became The supervisor and a trainer later. So I trained people in profiling from, I don't know how many security organizations, also for airlines. And eventually I worked a lot with of course Dutch police. And I found it interesting also the whole policing because I thought I would probably, be able to make more of a difference if I eventually would go into police. But it was still so much well fun, I wouldn't say. But it was so interesting to profile and you know, I've seen so many things and I've kept so many people, even even a minister one day who was smuggling, well, it's, it was all over the news. It was an Israeli energy minister, I won't mention a name. He was smuggling. Chocolate covered ecstasy pills. Nice. We told them m and ms. Yeah. But of course we found out it, it was something different. And he was traveling with a passport that was tempered with, and so yeah his whole behavior was just off. And so yeah, and many things we found, you know, babies that were not alive anymore, but stuffed with drugs. We found people with dead body parts or people body parts in their in their suitcases, drugs. You mention it. And it was such a good learning school in so many ways because you work with so many international people, you know, from all over the world, especially at airports. And eventually I was like, Yeah. You know, after a couple of years I was talking to someone from the police and they were like, we really would like a female chief. Are you willing to apply? And I was like you know, maybe it would be nice to do something else. Let's go for it. and I got hired. So that's really how I got in. Wow.

Yoyo 22:43

So, and look, everybody knows that working in the police comes with challenges, but it also comes with highlights, doesn't it? What's the one thing that you look back in very fondly about your time as a chief of police, that you think, you know, that it was all worthwhile.

Miranda 23:02

My officer. I'm still in touch with many of them, my colleagues from back in the days. I mean, you know, there's a camaraderie there that well, you probably will acknowledge that. I don't know. You can hardly describe that. I hear that a lot with military guys as well, or, yeah. Also in close protection nowadays. I mean, I mean, it's different, you know, you depend on each other. Sometimes, you know, life and death situations because you do with so many crazy things and you see so much horror. So it's, yeah. And you cannot share that with a partner or it's family members because they will not understand. They will listen to you and see a movie probably in their head, you know, they, they cannot comprehend, let's say. So yeah, I still. I think that was the highlight, really, just to see where their hearts were and how we supported each other. And yeah, there's so many good police, and especially now what I see the last couple of years with a defunding police and, you know, so many awful things said by citizens. you know, if shit hits the fan, the first thing they do is calling the police and expecting them to be there. But as, as long as they don't need them, they just, you know, visit the police at their homes and threaten them and their families, or even kill them and hurt them. My God, you know, what's going on in this world? What has something has gone wrong in the brains or a education or upbringing of people, the disrespect that there is, but don't you

Yoyo 24:43

think the media is perpetuating that discontent? Absolutely. I'm hearing in the uk yes.

Miranda 24:50

And sadly of course there are still a great journalist who really try to make a difference. But it's all about, I think, making money and getting as many followers as you can. And apparently lying and violence is something that pays off. You know, that, that creates followers and yes, and it's sickening to. And that's me personally, that those people who do that should be put on a list and if they call 9 1 1 or one two, or whatever is the alarm number in their country, they should not get any help. You know, you think need. Yeah. I really, it's just, it's ridiculous. You know what if it is your child or your mother or father or brother or sister or best friend or partner or your, yourself or even your animals. Some people only love animals. I'm fine with that, but you know, if the people that usually run towards a threat instead of running away just to help you I just, well, you hear it already. I just cannot get over that. It's just insane to me. We

Yoyo 25:59

used to say, you know, that you'd get either punched in the face or kissed in that job every day. Metaphorically. Right. In the sense of, you know, you can turn up to, as I did once, a car upside down, flipped on its roof. Yeah. No one inside it, middle of nowhere. And a man just standing by the side of the road just sort of scratching his head. And I said, have you seen the driver? And he said, oh, that, yeah, that's my car. The roof had compacted to the same line as the top of the door, the si. Wow. Yeah. And I said, how did you get out? God damnit this and he said, I dunno. And he crawled out the back of the window, I guess. Yeah. And it and on that day I literally I grabbed his arm and I said, do you know how great today is? This is the best day of your life cuz you've been given a second chance. Right. You know, it could have all ended. And there's that whole kind of experience on how you can be the one person they wanna see when they're, they're hurt in a car or you know this, or they're facing some kind of huge crisis. You are the one person they wanna see. Yeah. But most of the time you are the one person, they're running away from out the supermarket trying to carry 24 cans of Heineken larga, which is very difficult running with that amount of beer on your shoulder. But nevertheless, you know, I'm putting a bit of comedy into it. it's a hate and love relationship, isn't it? It is. Yes, it is. I never had a boyfriend. When I was in the police. I had too many men asking me if I had handcuffs, and I'm like, of

Miranda 27:31

course. You know? Oh my gosh. Yeah. I'm so tired of that. I know. It's handcuffs

Yoyo 27:38

And already switched off next, you know. Right.

27:45

The security minds matter project was formed. To help tackle the worsening state of mental health and wellbeing in the security sector. With a focus on frontline security. Security officers are the outward face of security and many, if not, most cases and provide vital roles in protecting people property. And assets. They need an increasingly wide range of skills, education, and awareness of the importance of mental wellbeing and the understanding of coping mechanisms, tools and support when they need it for themselves or others. Whilst we have a long way to go. We are delighted. That the security minds matters program has tech security mines matters. Has been recognized at the FSM awards by winning the security campaign of the year. Look out for hashtag security minds matter and give it a like on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram.

Yoyo 28:45

when you were younger, do you remember what happened? How old were you

Miranda 28:49

Well, it's a long story. It started when I was really young and some bad things happened with people that I knew they were not family, but they were friends of the family and You know, being sexually assaulted and threatened and all that stuff. and just feeling unsafe as a young girl. It just does, of course, it just puts your world upside down. And I was not able to really recover from that. I could not focus really at school anymore. And I didn't feel, you know, that I could talk to anyone about it. And when I tried, it was just done like, ugh, you know, get over it. We all go through that shit, or I don't know. It was just but that's me. I'm not saying that the people around me did anything. The good people, I mean, did anything wrong. They just didn't know any better. And I was not much of a talker. So yeah, I just Ended up in, in the wrong hands eventually. I,, lived on the streets for a little while, walked into people that, because as a little girl you need some sort of protection. So you joined groups and it was unfortunately the wrong group. You know, you're so naive when you're young. And although I was yeah, quite as smart as at least that I pretended to be at my age but of course you're not. I mean, now with after studying so many things make sense also, right? That they now say, oh, your brain is not fully grown when you're 25. Oh yeah. I get that now. And I see that with so many young people who think they are way smarter than their parents. Right? Yes. so yeah, now I know how to deal with that. But at that time and especially at that, Era. I mean, there was no internet back in those days, no cell phones. It was a completely different world, right? Yeah. Everything happened on the street. So, yeah, I just ended up in the wrong hands and it, it turned out to be people that were dealing in drugs and weapons and females. At that time I was not familiar with trafficking and the word never existed. Then. So, you know, later after struggling and fighting to get through, and losing my daughter I just felt, I just, I had one chance to survive and and I managed to escape after many attempts and stay out.

Yoyo 31:06

Wow. And I guess, look, that's something that makes you so. Formidable and successful today is that instinct to survive. Some don't make it, do they? They don't have that. And they can almost become very much acclimated to their environment and feel too scared to leave. It takes a lot of bravery to leave.

Miranda 31:27

I don't know if it's a skill. I think I was just lucky to be able to have that courage at that time. And I think the courage was mixed with so much fear. I remember like trembling, like literally shaking out of fear. But yeah, later on it just now brought me so much because I've seen the inside out r really of those organizations. So, I know how they think and operate and will react, and it's just so helpful, you know, although I hate that I had to have that experience but at least I'm now trying to do something with it. But it's so hard to get out and so many people, I hear so many still also with domestic violence. Why doesn't she leave? Or, you know, but it is the fear and they just brainwash you into that. Nobody loves you and likes you anymore. I remember having to, to write the farewell letter to my family. and I just believed what that, what they said was true because they make you sleep deprived. They, you know, they don't give you food or hardly they lock you up chain you, so you just get so brainwashed.

Yoyo 32:44

And. And yet I think what you have done and you said that you took several attempts to escape. Yeah. And I think that just goes to show how deep down, strong you are, you know, because some people may have only tried once. So you've now sort of made a career out of a kidnapping business in the sense of combating it, raising awareness. Take us through now because we can clearly see your journey and what's motivating you to get on the right side of human trafficking. Let's talk about what you are working on now and how you are trying to make a difference.

Miranda 33:21

Yeah. Well, eventually I focused only on security for a long time or a law enforcement in the mix. I went to semi law enforcement and I did security jobs, and I became a security consultant. But every time somehow I walked into people who were, you know, doing something with trafficking. And I felt so compelled to just help because sometimes I had answers that they didn't or I just, fell for the victims because I knew exactly what they were going through or so eventually I joined a an organization many years ago. And that's where I really saw what was going on. And that organization worked internet. So eventually I became a trainer. I trained the rescue operators also for them what to expect, especially on behavior analysis and culture. Especially because of course we travel all over the world and by the time that I joined Lyft, have lived all over the world. I've lived in the Middle East, worked there extensively, lived in the US in Canada, and in Europe. Of course, worked in Asia. So it all helps all that experience. And I'm a person that likes to share and make people better. I don't like that people, you know, are also siloed because we cannot stop the evil, whether that is in security or close protection or trafficking or law enforcement. If we stay siloed, we need to work together because that the, that's their strength, you know, from the criminals because they know we are so divided and don't wanna share. So they always have a win out of that. Anyways, so, yeah, so I eventually became a forensic interviewer because I always saw and even experienced myself of course, that victims of trauma and especially of kidnapping or trafficking, it was more like an interrogation than that. You had a conversation that you felt safe in. And it had nothing to do with the officers who did the interviews. It was just because she could not, I don't know it was just not safe enough and you always felt like you were the blame. There was oftentimes the question, well, what were you wearing or what were you saying? Right, incredulous. And I'm like, there is, yes. So that was something that bothered me. And so I, I made. Turned, I made a whole new forensic interviewing program. I tried to help you know, close protection law enforcement, just to train them, and even in hospitality just to see who's coming into your venues, for instance host is at a hotel. Like, what are the people coming into your hotel? Are they going in and out? Are it always the same people? Are they ha renting a room just for one day? How many people do they bring in? What do they say? How do they behave? But also, of course, for so many other things. I mean, behavioral analysis is so easy in so many ways when it comes to trafficking at the airports. You know, how do you recognize someone that is trafficked and all that stuff? So, yeah it just I think it was even a healing journey for me, you know, at least I felt I did something witted. And I tried to share so eventually I'm now working with a couple of anti or counter human trafficking organizations. And they are like, Sellas is my own organization. I'm a co-founder, let's say. I started out with a group of friends that I was working with in the country, human trafficking scene for many years, and they're amazing people and they give their all, but we are all volunteers. I work with well, Celis is my organization and with Joy International is an amazing organization and Ervo is fantastic.

Yoyo 37:23

We can make sure that we put the links to these organizations and

Miranda 37:26

we'll buy. Yeah. So, and we try to work together where we can. They are amazing people. They're really doing it for the right reasons. I see thankfully more and more of those organizations popping up. The sad thing is they don't wanna work together because I see a lot of people also that I'm a bit worried about, you know, they wanna wear that hero cape and get a pat on the back. And I'm like, it's not about you. It's about, you know, have you been in that position? Just, you know, come work together and let us save those people and let us stop those traffickers. And what we should not forget about those traffickers is usually, oftentimes, I have to say, not always, but of course it's about the money. It's easy money, you know, when you sell a car, you can only sell it once and you make money. Or drugs, you so only sell it once. Weapons, you only sell it once you make money. But a human you can use all over and all and over again. So it's an amazing profit for someone. And I just want people to work together and not wear that hero cape. Just think of the people. What if it is your kid? And it can happen. A lot of people think it's not happening here in my life, you know? But it can be your nephew or niece or cousin or sister or even your own children because they're groomed all over from, and it doesn't matter from which family you are, whether you are rich or poor. They all have those strategies. Those traffickers know exactly who to go after, you know, on social media. And so how

Yoyo 39:01

does, how do they learn the human traffickers to manipulate people in such a way?

Miranda 39:08

Because we all give it away. You know, a lot of parents are just so busy and I do get it because the world is so expensive. But yeah, they don't really look what their children do on the internet who their friends are also even at school, you know, you have those what do you call them? I will come to the name in a bit. But do you have those boys that go to the school and even girls that groom those kids, you know, they pick out the kids that are sad, they try to become friends with them give them little presents have little conversations with them to cheer them up, make them trust them, and then eventually all of a sudden you, you see so many runaways, you know, So the children run away out of free will. They think they get a better life and then end up, oh, a lover boy. I'm sorry, I couldn't come up with that. Oh yeah. So, and then they end up there, and then of course their life changes because they were not into giving them presents. But also people in labor, you know, especially in poor countries or certain neighborhoods when they promise you a job abroad or in another state, and eventually you end up in, I don't know, behind a window somewhere in the red light district or Yeah. In a hotel room where 25 guys are lined up. So it, it's just it's sad and it's amazing how many people are being used and abused by traffickers. And as I said, it happens, right. In front of us in not even in poor countries only. Of course there are too. I mean, people there sell their kids off. Yeah.

Yoyo 40:51

The in the pre-chat we talked about what a human traffickers origins are, and you astounded me with the phrase that a human trafficker c can come about by being trafficked themselves. Take us through that whole journey, which I think will shock and surprise a lot of people.

Miranda 41:11

Well, I, yeah. Well, what I, of course, I see that often, but I can tell about one story that was about a girl actually that was trafficked into Canada. And she came from a poor country. Was offered a job. She got, she thought her visa and a passport. And then she arrived and somebody picked her up and she thought everything was okay, and she had to hand out her passport, which she, of course didn't got back. Then. They took her phone and they put her in a hotel room, and there were you know, there she had to wait. And then a little later she was taken out there, and then she was brought to some kind of home, wh which was dirty. She had to sleep on a old gross mattress, bed box and all that stuff. A lot of girls there, they were all on drugs or just, you know, they were abused and then she knew she was in the wrong place. And when she asked they started with her too, and they said, you know, you owe us a lot of money for your ticket and we take away your visa. You cannot get out now. You have to work. So eventually she became a dancer in like some sex club. And she couldn't deal with it anymore. And, you know, every time that she wanted to run away, one of the other girls betrayed her. And then of course she got punished. But not only her, but because she run away, the other girls got panic punished. Right. And, you know, it's mental abuse. It them divided. Yeah, exactly. And they are deprived of sleep, like what they always do to traffickers and not enough food. So they were hungry, no money. And eventually somehow she found a way to befriend sort of one of the traffickers let's say her pimp and it's kind of that Stockholm syndrome. You know, so they get attached in a certain way, and then they know that the trafficker promised that if she's recruiting other girls and she has more freedom, and that eventually how they end up. And then of course, the trafficker and the girl get a kid. And they become also a trafficker, become, it's a family business. And that's, you know, that is how people make money. And so a lot of people do it because just to escape some do it to escape. Because I've also seen girls that, that try to befriend because as a tactic they're pimp or trafficker and eventually managed to escape that way, because they got a little more freedom. But also a lot of them are ending up in prison or in shelter homes and eventually they don't know how to deal with it or they are not helped in a proper way, or their trafficker or pimp finds them again and they are brought back. So, and not other times they just call their trafficker. They say, oh, I'm so sorry I did something wrong. Can you pick me up? And with that also revealing where the shelter home is. So, and that goes on a map for the traffickers so that they already know where the shelter home is. So there are so many ways that, that people are abused and try to escape and become the evil themselves. It's really

Yoyo 44:25

very disturbing.

Miranda 44:27

It is. Yeah. And that's another,

Yoyo 44:31

I can't imagine, you know, getting how vulnerable, I mean, I remember how vulnerable I was, I suppose at 14, and I can't imagine someone promising me the world and then me getting on a plane, going to a foreign country. Yeah. And having this hope, this amazing hope of a better life to only have my passport taken away from me. And I'm just, I was trying to envisage, you know, how I would feel utterly crushed, that someone could build up your hope so much for a better life, and then ultimately put you in the gutter. And it's a misconception. It's honestly, I really am a bit stuck for words. Most people that know me are that I'm not really a stuck for the words kind of person. So what do we do really?

Miranda 45:14

Miranda? I just wanted to say that it's also a misconception that it's only young children because really we find them of any age. I've found women, females of 80 years old, so, and they are used for labor or, you know, they just drain everything out of the people. They just squeeze everything out of them to use them. They have no feelings. Those traffickers, it's all about money.

Yoyo 45:41

You know, you look at murderers and you think, well, at least they put their victims out of misery, but these people are living in,, I think it's a worse kind of, I mean, look, taking a life is never a good thing. Never a good thing. But, these people are living in perpetuation of just despair and lack of hope. And then drug addiction on top of that. So what's on your plan for 2023 then? And you've got a, you're tackling a very big monster, aren't you, really?

Miranda 46:09

Yeah. Yeah. Well, keeping myself safe, first of all, cuz I travel a lot and I'm eat a lot of not so nice people. But what's on my agenda? Well, of course I have the human trafficking, the county human trafficking is all volunteer work. So I have to work and pay the bills. So I run my own company and for that I travel the world as well. So I have a lot of plans again already clients booked for this year. And that can be coaching. I do a lot of coaching for people training of course but also psychological tread assessments, especially with insider treach or other stuff that I do forensic interviewing. I do heat trainings just to do something else sometimes. And those are the trainings that you people that go to high risk environments that you train'em how to deal with that, you know, what if they get kidnapped. So yeah, medical training, negotiation, that kind of stuff. Stress inoculation training that is. And then, yeah, next to that, I try to do as many rescues that make as many connections as I can to counter the human trafficking and work with as many organizations possible that are vetted. And I feel like, you know, they really do it for the people and not for their own ego. Cause that to me is really a thing as you.

Yoyo 47:33

Yeah. And I get it that you're not looking for heroes, but if anybody does feel so compelled about finding out more because you know, there are certain characteristics within individuals that make them volunteers doing pro bono work. And there will be some people who will probably want to find out more about how they can help, will provide some information in your bio for people to discover more about options of getting involved on a voluntary basis.

Miranda 48:00

Yeah, well, to be involved really just look at you know, Google counter human trafficking organizations and see who is now in your area and that you can volunteer for. And what are the skills that you bring? I mean, I have to be honest, most people cannot do rescues. You need to have certain skills, but what you can do and what is really needed for those organizations is this fundraising. Yeah. And that's what a lot of people don't like or education, you know, tell people what human trafficking look like. Go to schools churches hotels events. Just tell people about it and make people aware.

Yoyo 48:38

I know that especially I've, in the last sort of five, six years, there's been a lot of training and awareness in the UK around modern slavery and the Modern Slavery Act. And just raising awareness about what human trafficking can look like. You know, there's quite a lot of signs from an employer's perspective, and I think it starts there with responsibility over who you're hiring. with the whole, an individual being dropped off in a vehicle with lots of other people and it, and things like that. And there's lots of other things to look out for, aren't there around modern slavery.

Miranda 49:13

Yeah, it's endless. I mean, there's so many things to do especially, you know, by law there's so many things that need to looked at again, or even laws that are not established yet that need to be established. I mean, we see the politicians of these days. I'm a bit worried about our future. Yeah. Actually, wherever in the world. So I do hope that people's eyes open and that they at least protect their little circle, you know? In their way. And again, we are not all rescue operators. That's a very, very special skill. Then you have to be, you need to know how to fight, but also, especially how to talk your way out. You need to know everything about culture. And how to deal with all the horror that you see. And so many people wanna do it. And I'm really happy that there are so many people interested, but I mean, probably 98% of the people that apply or just ask me for that role, I have to say no. And also because you have to fund everything yourself. So if you wanna join one of the operations by most of those organizations, you have to fund your own flight ticket, hotel, food clothing attributes that you need. So are you willing to invest at all to to rescue people? Right? And can you take off from work that long? And can you handle that later mentally? Yeah. So yeah, there are, there's so many things that, that come with that. So I always say like, if you can do fundraising for those organizations or if, yeah, if you're good at marketing or whatever, then you are at the right place. If you know how to write grants or apply for grants you know, then you help those organizations tremendously. There's only like one or 2% that, that really does the rescues, and trust me, it's really not that great as people think it is. It's a lot of horror that you encounter. There's no doubt

Yoyo 51:21

about it. You've made us aware, I think, of the horrors involved on a very personal level. And look, it's not an easy subject. It's quite a tough subject, isn't it? What do you do for self-care that, to make sure that all of the negativity mainly about what, you know, sometimes that can be quite difficult to manage. What do you do to look after yourself?

Miranda 51:44

Thankfully I've, I have an amazing group of peers. I can call on them twenty four seven. We all can call on each other twenty four seven. They're like family to me. And they all live all over the world, but we've worked together, we've been through shit and we just do that. But the other thing is of course I work out that helps a lot and I love being in nature on my. Just endless walks in the forest mountains along the beach, along the shore. And that helps, you know, and you need that you need to make time for yourself and you need to be able to switch off and not flee to alcohol or drugs. Yeah. I am not often in an Netherlands. I travel at least 200 days out of the year. So a lot of walks Wow. Are abroad.

Yoyo 52:31

Okay. Well, listen thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your story which was phenomenal. Thank you for helping us to raise awareness. Of human trafficking and the harms and you are making a huge difference. And to those individuals, those just individual lives, I know you're making a huge difference. So thank you very

Miranda 52:53

much. Well, thank you. And my apologies for my English. I'm not a native English. Oh, behave yourself. You English is a lot better

Yoyo 53:01

than most of

Miranda 53:02

ours.

Yoyo 53:03

And the thing is, in the Netherlands you are known for having really

Miranda 53:06

good English. So I don't have to learn

Yoyo 53:07

any Dutch to come to Amsterdam. So really you don't have to apologize for your English. It's phenomenal. Okay everybody, thank you for listening and if you want more information, we'll provide some on Miranda's bio some information about how to raise money and some of the charities involved. And we'll put your LinkedIn bio there as well, Miranda, so people can get in touch. Thank you so much

Miranda 53:28

and thank you.