EP 028 John Rodriguez "The Guardian Within: Mental Health and Empathy in Business Security"

John Rodriguez is the founder of Empathic Security Cultures LLC based in Austin, TX

 John brings 41+ years of pure corporate security experience working for major corporations including General Motors, Kimberly-Clark, Levi Strauss & Co., and Cardinal Health. He previously was the CSO for Temple-Inland in Austin, TX.  He also owned a consulting firm for 10 years with over 100 Fortune 500® clients from 1995-2004.   John’s career started in 1982 as a third shift proprietary security officer with General Motors progressing to positions of higher responsibility up to CSO. He has also worked in Latin America and the Caribbean for 33 years.

While with Kimberly-Clark Corporation, security director for Latin American operations, the company was ranked #1 of 1,900 companies from 2009-2011 by the Great Place to Work Institute® John’s innovative security strategies were recognized by senior leadership as critical contributions to those years of #1 rankings.  Business sales ranked 1st or 2nd place in every country of operation.

John’s is a bi-lingual, bi-cultural (Spanish/English) security generalist with passion for security culture development, mentoring, and mental health in the workplace for a psychologically safe workplace and mitigating hostile environment risks.  He also developed the Security Culture Professional’s Attributes Model™
(SCPA Model) for the security professional’s character development and their security culture journey.

He holds a Master’s of Liberal Arts, Texas Christian University and a Bachelor’s in Criminal Justice, North Texas State University. He completed the Chief Security Officer Executive Development Program, The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania.  

He held the ASIS CPP certification for 19 years and the ACFE CFE designation for 16 years.  

He has lectured forASIS International, U.S. State Dept. Overseas Advisory Council (OSAC), International Security Management Association (ISMA), and others.  For ASIS International, he has been invited to present at the 2023 GSX event in Dallas, TX.  This will mark the 8th occasion he has presented at an ASIS Global forum, (5x at GSX, formerly the ASIS International Annual Seminar & Exhibits, 2x global webinars, and 1x article for Security Management magazine - How to Build a Best-in-Class Security Culture - this was 1 of the 12 most read articles in 2022. 

Current memberships:

·       ASIS International, Co-Lead Mental Wellness Working Group

·       U.S. State Dept. Overseas Advisory Council (OSAC)

·       Association of Threat Assessment Professionals (ATAP)

John has mentored security professionals in the U.S. and Latin America for 21 of his 41 years in the profession. Most recently, he was a mentor in the OSAC Women in Security (LATAM) program in 2022.

John is a Certified Family Support Group Facilitator with the National Alliance on Mental Health and gives back to the community by leading support group discussions as well as training at law enforcement academies as part of their Crisis Intervention Team curriculum in the Greater Austin, TX area.  John recently earned his facilitator certificate from the Center for Building a Culture of Empathy.

LinkedIn Profile 

www.EmpathicSecurityCultures.com

Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

Yoyo: 0:15

Hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. If poe is the International Foundation for Protection Officers and we are dedicated to providing meaningful education and certification for all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference to our members mental health and wellbeing. Join us and our special guests as we delve into all the matters, security related that matter to you. With me today is a very special man. His name is John Rodriguez. Now John brings 40 years of pure corporate security experience working for major corporations, including General Motors, Kimberly Clark, Levi Strauss, and Cardinal Health. He previously was c s O for Temple Inland in Austin, Texas, and also owned a consulting firm for 10 years with over 114 500 clients. John is a certified family support group facilitator, with the National Alliance on Mental Health and gives back to the community by leading support group discussions, as well as training at law enforcement academies as part of their crisis intervention team. Now John's a security generalist, really, with a passion for security, culture development, mentoring, mental health in the workplace. Mental health is very important to ipo, but he also focuses on, violence, bullying, and hostile environment risks. He also works with business leaders and employees to break through the mental health stigma barrier to work towards self-care. He holds a masters of liberal arts Texas Christian University and a Bachelor's in Criminal Justice in North Texas State University, and he completed a Chief Security Officer Executive Development Program. this man has got a list of accreditations, including the not last or least for 19 years. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast, John. Hi, Yolanda. Thanks. I'm so excited. We had a chat a few weeks ago and I just, couldn't wait for this official get togethers. How are you? Yeah, I mean, look good. Now you recently appeared for a s i s actually you did a really cool mental health piece with Mike Hurst, our Honorable Mike Hurst legendary Mike Hurst, although he says leg Mike Hurst. And it was incredibly good and it's very thought provoking, but you've got a great career in security. You're here with the best in class. When you were a little boy, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Cuz not a lot of people choose security at that age. I always liked to swim and I heard about underwater welding and I heard of the north seat, which was it's always kind of rough, I guess. So that was my first dream. But that faded pretty quick once I grew up and got to school and thought about a career in law enforcement. But my senior year in College General Motors was looking for a security officer help, and I thought, well, I didn't get a degree to, look at lunch stacks or rattle doors. But I went in for the interview cuz the money was really good back at that time. And it just changed my perception. GM back then, besides traditional security function, they handle fire and safety. So that's the start. And didn't look back. I was very fortunate with GM and as you said earlier, the companies that I worked for, it's been a real blessing career-wise. Yeah, I mean, general Motors, they've been around a very long time. And even in the UK we've heard of General Motors. I think it's got to be, even to date a long with Coca-Cola, one of the most recognized corporate brands, right John? It is. And back then the security function was kind of very leading edge. You had to have a degree to be a security officer and they had a proprietary model they eventually transitioned to, to contract years later. But it was very structured, very well organized, very well thought of, and was just a wonderful experience. And Levi Strauss. Now I'm giving myself in my head a little round of applause and you won't understand why. But years and years ago in the very oh, early nineties, I got a reception job as a temp for Levi Strauss here in England. Yeah. And I couldn't say it properly and I, my job was to pick up the phone and say, good afternoon, Levi Strauss, how can I help you? But I, I kept saying Levoy stra. I kept getting the the vowels around the wrong way. I came across Australian and nobody questioned it. But Levi Strauss another tremendous brand name. Tell us what you did for them. I I left GM as a site manager in the parts division. And so I left automotive to go to a apparel on a regional corporate level. So I covered half the US and all Latin America and Mexico, and soon after the. The North American free trade or NAFTA was approved in 94 and 95. So I was a generalist there in the apparel manufacturing operation with Levi's. So I left the automotive industry and, those years were formative in learning structured management system and a unionized, the United Workers Union and the model of collective bargaining and how every few years there was a new contract. So I, you talk about empathy and compassion and human behavior. That was a great learning real life experience piece and education piece to see both sides, leadership or management that the side I was on and the union, perspective and how they negotiated contracts and so forth. So, transitioning to Levi Strauss, I left that environment to a family owned, privately held company, which was wonderful. And the host family owned it at that time. And they were very compassionate very caring. They really cared for the employees during the years that I was there and, all at the, all the time, Jack Welsh. But GE was changing the structure of, process and profitability and growth for the shareholder primarily. The stack rankings and the force, the 10% out the door and so forth. I read about that stuff and learned about it, but at Levi's we didn't have that. But anyway generalist duty, travel risk a lot of supply chain. Obviously the 5 0 1 s back then were a hot item I P R or intellectual property rights, the counterfeiting out of Asia and Latin America and shipments, the diversion to Europe, where the people would buy genuine gray market products and so forth. So, in investigations, physical security, I was really fortunate throughout my career to be a generalist and very fortunate. So, do you know John? There's a new AZI word for generalist, and I was told this Oh yeah. I was told this by a recruiter. You're a multipotentialite. Oh my God, it's phenomenal. Multipotentialite, well, as you would say, multipotentialite, but it's such a super cool word. Yeah. And it's just generalist. And the thing is, with being a generalist, I dunno about you, I'm a generalist, a multipotentialite, and I also kind of sometimes feel really jealous of people who are just so good at one thing, because I can dip into like you many different security disciplines, but I'm not a master of one. How have you felt the same? Yeah. Yeah. I think, there's a lot of people that say they're experts and this, that and the other. I struggle with the word, because you can have experience one time or three times in five years. That means you had experience and hopefully you learned from it. Right? So to say you've reached the pen, you never reach. It's an art. And you may have heard my other pieces on security culture, and we'll talk about that. But, security is really two parts. Science and art and the arts, the human connection and the communication skills and influencing folks of all levels. And that never ends. It's an art, the science piece, you can be an expert in security technology, video system design. And I'll say, yeah, you've done, 10 projects, greenfield projects in five years. And I would say you're an expert. But the science piece, It's really hard. But relative to the human piece, I would say it's relatively easy and people will push back again. it's very complex, but really when you look at, video system, there's a beginning, middle, and end. There's the planning, the design, the selection of the integrator of the equipment, all the contract negotiation. Then you start, then you install, then you do the acceptance or the commissioning, but at the end of the day, the camera works or it doesn't work, right? It's black and white. It's science versus trying to build trust with a site leader or a group of people. that separates the security professionals today and going forward, the ones that understand the science part and learn it, but more so are aware of the complexities and the challenges and the thrill to have success in gaining folks on your side. Heard a really good, simple description on the on LinkedIn. A guy said, and he specialized in sales. It's, know, like, and trust. People need to know you then, like you then trust you. And I love it. It's, I love simplicity. So part of the teaching and coursework that I provide is on communication and it's the art of gentle, compassionate, precise and concise communication. Business leaders are swamped and you have to be aware of time and timing of when you're going to approach a business leader to discuss something. You might have a formal 30 minutes set aside with a site leader or a VP to present a project or review an incident that you worked on. And she may say, I've got a crisis with something on the floor. I can give you 10 minutes. So you went from 30 to 10 minutes. Do you have that agility and that awareness to be able to compact all that information and pick the most critical things that you want to convey knowing that she or he might be thinking partly about the problem they really need to work on? Or is the timing not good that you say, Hey, work on that. I understand., let's regroup and I'll we'll set up another time. Okay? So that's part of human interaction and awareness and being perceptive. You know that you gotta set your ego aside in everything you do as a security professional. And that goes back to the human aspect or the art of connecting with people. I think the security industry needs it, doesn't it? Because, I don't know if it's just because there's such a high migration from very disciplined industries, like the military and the police for example. But those cultures, they don't have a lot of empathy in them in the sense of the way they manage people. And so in a sense, with that migration of people, the security industry needs a lot more compassion, doesn't it? I agree. And I think some of those folks from those disciplines have it just innately, but years of being in the military or law enforcement, I think you adapt to that culture. And law enforcement is enforcing the law, right? On the corporate security side. It's preventing things from happening in the first place. My philosophy is 90% prevention and 10% reactive, but that 10%, you better be really good at the reactive piece and you can say 80 20 or whatever you want to do. But yeah, I think there's, I've seen it in my 40 years. Next month will be 41, so I'm aware of my time. And so you started when you were only very young then? Well, at 82. Yeah. At 82. And so I've seen some law enforcement and military guys excel cuz they adapt. But I think a lot of it is innate empathy and compassion, but some struggle. Right. And Especially if they go into a department that has the same background makeup. If the CSO or their boss is from the same background and they may not really feel that those soft skills or, assign a weakness or, we're here for a mission and we deliver the core deliverables and we're the best at it, that's fine. You, you should deliver your core areas, but there's always room to improve and how you influence people makes the world a difference. So, so tell me, when did it start for you in your career that you realized that empathy and compassion were critical to your journey? What was the defining stage of your life where this happened for you? I think it started as a kid. My mom was very compassionate. She always listened and she was always giving she'd help the needy. If there was somebody, in the corner asking for hand out, she would go a quarter, back then when I was in 75 or when I was a little kid, and I learned from her and she always said, when you have money you pay your bills, you save some, and you spend some, and the money you can spend, share a little bit. So I always noticed that, and I think that's stuck in me. And from day one, as a security officer with General Motors, on the third shift, I saw the interaction with the General Motors supervisors and leaders and the employees. And I noticed the style of the different leaders. Some were not very empathic or compassionate. And they had a rougher go as far as connecting and getting their objectives done versus the ones that did. So I always liked human behavior and my double minored in psychology and sociology and my leaders at gm, my boss was a fantastic person. He was a retired Michigan State commander, and he lost his two kids in car accidents when they were 16. A young boy and a young girl when they were in the month of December. And he shared that with me. And I knew he was a shell of a person. I mean, he functioned, he was a great mentor. He taught me how to treat people, but you know, to see the pain that he lived through. I think, when you talk about empathy there's all kinds of literature and studies, but I like to simplify it. And there's the cognitive empathy where, you know you try to put yourself in somebody else's place, there's a whole discussion on that cuz when people do that, then your bias is kicked in. And, you're struggling with saying, well, if I was in your shoe, I would do shoes. I would do this or that versus not being, not having that part of your brain working and just fully connect with that person on a cognitive level. And then the second part is emotional or visceral. If you have a little kid and they smash their finger in the door, you can feel it in your gut. In your body, right? You feel the pain. That's visceral. So that's an emotional example of connecting. And then the evolution is compassion. I understand you. I connect with you, I feel for you. And now is there something I can do to help you? And maybe just listening is something I can do to help you, right? Or if it's an employee saying, Hey, my car got broken into and I'm really worried. I can't sleep cuz that's my main possession, that's important. So how can I help them? And if I get more feedback of that type, maybe there is a problem in the parking lot that we can do. Maybe sliding, maybe it's just a, an awareness to all the employees. Hey, we're seeing some break-ins. As soon as you drive in eyes and ears and let us know if something's there. So we can work as a team, as a simple example of security culture. So I think that might answer your question on empathy and compassion. So to be a good practitioner then in relation to managing with empathy, compassionate management of other people, just being a com compassionate human being, that must take an awful lot of study. What have you done to understand the psychology of why this is important? I think learning and having good role models. Or having terrible leaders. I've had sociopath leaders that, they teach you how not to be. Yes. And you manage the best you can, but there's, there's formal education, there's coursework but really it's practice and being aware and there's, you can be empathic every time you connect with somebody and it's just listening to what they have to say and understanding them. That doesn't mean you have to be compassionate, that there's nothing really you can do, but you can practice and get better in the art of empathic listening. And there's a lot of folks that are popping up now on cyber empathy and empathy this, and trust that. And it's interesting to see how some folks. Or might read an article or listen to, somebody give a course and we talked about expertise and wisdom and now they're adding that to their to their list of abilities. And I would just suggest to people, when you're listening to somebody to really look at their background, did they live it? And it goes back to not just experience but wisdom. Did they have x number of years or did they have just two years in corporate frontline experience, but you know, 10 years being an instructor. And there's nothing wrong with that, instructing at a university or something. There's nothing like frontline. And you've lived it, we've talked about being in the frontline. That's priceless education, right? Because it's not just doing our function, our profession of corporate security or security management. It's understanding the business and learning and seeing people interact. So I would tell folks, look at the credentials of the person promoting or saying, I can teach you this, or I can give you a discussion on that. You have what's our most precious thing? It's time. So every day we have X amount of time on our hands. Are you going to latch onto somebody that I don't know what the word is, regurgitates information from somebody else, right? And doesn't really teach you anything. Or are you gonna say, okay, I've had enough of that person, I'm gonna look for other sources or talk to you, Hey Yoyo, I'm looking for somebody in physical security or training or travel risk management. I know you've done it. You know who, who's some good sources to listen to or or resources. You have to be wise with your time and stay out of the the echo chamber. We talked about you come out of this discipline and you, your biases, your bi familiarity, biases, both was in law enforcement or police or military. So they're in for five years in corporate security. I'm gonna listen. Yes, you listen to what they say, but don't shun other resources. And that's the beautiful thing about LinkedIn. I think that there's. The world, the world is Flat book that came out years ago. I mean, it's amazing. I met you, and I read your bio, so I read people's bios before I even reach out. Yes. And cuz my time is very precious. So I would just suggest to people really dig deep into somebody's background. If they say they have 25 or 30 years in corporate security, we'll look at their education and their experience, as 10 years in law enforcement or military. And that's fine, that's honorable, but that's not pure security. That's not frontline security management, getting those scars. You gotta have those, you gotta get beat up by, not literally, but by business leaders that you're learning the business and delivering your core deliverables. But you have to be aware that somebody can teach me something. And if I'm not prepared, if I go into that director's office to present, if I'm not prepared, she's gonna eat me up or she's gonna discard me. Like, this guy's not prepared, and your trust and your credibility can go down in minutes. So, there's always resources out there, but I would ask, I would tell, I'd suggest to people and the people I mentor and I teach I have a set of folks that I would tell'em to listen to. And you're one of them. There's others that I would say, well, they're good if you wanna listen to him or her, but maybe look at these other resources. And the security industry is really good for that. I remember I was prepping for a job interview. A while back and there was a specific matter that I was probably a little bit insecure about being competent in the interview. So I went on to asis a s I s Connects, and I just asked, has anybody here got time to just talk me through the subject and the amount of response I got back? Yeah, sure. Any specific aspect you wanna talk about? I scheduled Zoom meetings with coffee in all areas of the world, predominantly North America. And I got to have really a kind of free mentoring session on the subject matter that I was probably the most rustiest with. That's great. And it was phenomenal. John, the network we have in security is so strong and so supportive especially when you belong to a membership body. But also it can be equally destructive, especially when we don't manage key areas like mental health very well. So the security industry has had to go on a journey, hasn't it? Certainly. Corporate has had to go on a journey about how to recognize mental health. And you've written here that mental health affects all of our lives. In fact, your, the direct quote is, mental health affects all aspects of our lives at home and at work. We are all on the mental health spectrum and every day life events impact that, balance the mental health spectrum. That's a really good way of looking at it. Take us through that. Well, it's just like physical health. Some days we feel good, some days we don't. If we don't take care of ourselves, if we. With diet or alcohol or not exercise or do some of the things our physical health over time could deteriorate. And it's the same, your brain is an organ and you have to take care of your brain and in all the right ways. So, kinda my journey and my connection into security and helping people at work started about nine years ago, one of our kids was dealing with depression in high school, and they started self-medicating with marijuana. Okay. It's been known hasn't it, to exacerbate how depression affects somebody, hasn't it? Marijuana, absolutely. I think any substance does. But with marijuana now in the last. 20 years it's been genetically modified. The natural pot when I was growing up had 4% t h c the better quality. Yeah. Yep. So now it, you can get it all up to a hundred percent with the vaping. So our kid was using and over several years ended up in the university studies and their second year around their first and second year, they started vaping the the T HC cartridges. And that can have 80 to a hundred percent t H C plus the other additives, the vitamin E acetate and any other thing that is not good for your brain. So that triggered a psychotic break. And our kid ended up in the mental health hospital for two weeks and that changed our life. That was about four and a half years ago. As a parent, I should imagine, that's gotta feel a bit of rock bottom for you. How did you get through that? It was extremely difficult. You go through blame and shame and fear and depression and anger and why us and this can't happen to us. When he was diagnosed that first day in the hospital, the psychiatrist came out and said it's either something called cannabis induced psychosis, which we never heard of, that mimics bipolar one disorder or it's bipolar one disorder. Time will tell. And triggers will tell. And as you may be aware of a bipolar disorder there's two extremes. There's the mania or the energy and the sleepless nights and the euphoria, and then there's the depression piece. And bipolar one has more of the mania side. Bipolar two has more of the depression side. So we were stunned and I went in to put my corporate investigator hat on and I said, I gotta get smart and told my wife, we have to understand what's going on, all while being just steamrolled by these emotions. Our other child is a nurse and they told us they were part of our journey and we had a tight family unit to start our journey. And it's mental health is a journey. Even on that spectrum, some days we have the down days, sometimes something triggers us or gets us upset at work. Part of mental health awareness is knowing that, oh, yo-yo said to hurry up to get the pallet loaded. To get the shipment out the door. When she says, hurry up, just those words trigger me and it gets me upset. Right? But learning about myself and ourselves and mental health and what our triggers are, if you say that to me and it upsets me, if you're along your journey and aware, self-aware, and you've been learning about mental health, you wanna get to the point to say, oh, that's my brain getting mad with that trigger. It's not really anger at her, it's. Something happened, and, but I know what it is and I'm gonna, calm down, take a breath and regroup. So, back to the journey. It was the hardest part of our life. And I wanted resources, I wanted help. So one of the things I did was our company at that time had e a p employee assistance, part of our benefits, which was wonderful, I reached out to them right away and I looked at, you can find therapists that specialize in different areas and, divorce or loss of life or financial or A D H D or whatever disorder or condition may be out there. So I found one that was Adolescent or young adult bipolar disorder. So I connected with them. So you want information, get educated and be aware. And I found that nami, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, it's a mainly us organization and they help folks tremendously. And they have two groups of support groups. And the thing with mental health is that stigma barrier, it's invisible. If you break your arm at work and you have a cast on, I'll say, Hey yo man, what happened? Like, when are you gonna get it off? Or does it hurt? Yeah. Does it itch? I heard it itches, how do you scratch your elbow? You'll have people approach you and it's normal. But if you tell somebody I feel really anxious, or, I've been down, I don't know if I'm depressed, people don't know how to react. So I think society, the younger generation, gen Z and the others, they're leading the way. I think they're more aware of, forget that barrier. I want to talk about how I'm doing and when Mike and I did the talk that you referred to, he used some examples like Simone Biles that was, incredibly courageous. She's the best athlete in the world. And she said, I have some mental health issues. I'm gonna, I'm gonna sit this one out. Michael Phelps and others. Those are the role models that gradually are helping folks, but you can take it on yourself to accelerate that process, to break through stigma by, if you're an asis, join the working group that we have. That Mike really led it, I'm a co-leader, but he's the main leader. I'm gonna try to help him more. We teamed up on that. He's on it, isn't he? He's on it like all the time. There's, yeah, he's fantastic. Articles going up there and I'm like, well, I don't even have time and I should, just to go in and read them and acknowledge them. But I guess the benefit to having that a s i s mental health group is the fact that all of the things you needed there in one place, and yeah, he saw a gap there, didn't he? That didn't exist. And so if anybody just wants to sit quietly and just read around really good mental health discussion. The A s I S Mental Health group is a really cool group to, to stay connected with. It's fantastic. And will we see more presentations from you? I mean, I know that Mike and I have presented together at G S X last year but I couldn't go in person. I think he did and I provided the video support. I was there. Are you planning to do anything else? To We submitted to do another one and we'll see. I don't know when the decision's gonna be made. Hopefully, but if not, I would say anybody in a s I s that is interested go listen to our webinar and I tell my story more in depth. He shares some fantastic information. With getting back to nami, they have two support groups and it's related to stigma. When you talk about mental health issues or struggles, the before covid, the. Recognized authority, government and private sector bodies said that 20% or one in five folks have or will have a mental health diagnosis in their life right after Covid. It went to one in four. But the other big number is the people like in my case, who have a loved one with a diagnosis. I've searched high and low and I cannot find a metric on how many of us are out there. But I know it's high because you probably know, and I'm not gonna ask you about if you've ever struggled, but you may have, but you probably know somebody in your life, family or friend that has some kind of, A challenge, right? So if you combine that one in four plus the other part of how many of us have loved ones that we care for, that's the big number, big unknown number. So I would say that's 60 or 70% of those two groups combined. So mental health, awareness and care is real for everyone. And if it's, if you're lucky that you're not touched by it, you should still be aware of mental health and how you can improve it and how you can help somebody. Going back to empathy and compassion, compass and NAMI saved, it was literally a lifesaver that I was diagnosed with clinical depression and anxiety and P T S D six months into that journey, I was a mess, but I was still functioning. So I, I went full circle that first year, so, And I wanted to give back, and I got certified with nami and now I lead at least twice a month. I lead those support group sessions. there's 12 to 15 people that we gather on Thursday evenings. It's the second group, the ones the family support group. And we tell our stories. And you talk about being, practicing your empathy. You're locked in to a very emotional story, 14 or 15 stories in an hour and a half. And if you want to practice empathy, that's just an example of connecting and giving your whole self to being aware of somebody else's journey. So, I've given back and at work, part of security and mainly the US with workplace violence, the last 40 years. I think bullying is global and disrespectful workplaces is global. We have some degree of violence in some countries, but nowhere like we have it in the us. That's just the way it is. So, being a generalist, I did a lot of work in my 40 years, like I lost count at 400 a couple of years ago. So I've worked at least 400 potential workplace violence events concerning behavior is the starting point. Somebody said or did something maybe it violates the company's policy, maybe it doesn't. But part of a good security culture is everybody's aware, all the leaders are aware of looking for change and looking for those behaviors to say, John said or did something, I really need to look into it. And it may start, but hey John, Yolanda asked you to, hurry so we can get that shipment out. And you kind of raised your voice and you stood up, you looked a little upset, what's going on. That's the key to, or early deescalation and understanding what that person needs. Maybe they just the fact that I said, Hey, are you okay? The fact that I cared for Kim or her, it could help. So with all that experience and the mental health journey, I saw a huge opportunity. And the stigma piece that I lived from day one when our kid was hospitalized and we got that diagnosis from the doctor stigma was front and center. I told some friends about what we were going through and One friend just cut us off. I thought they were a friend, and now I realize they weren't a friend, but that was one out of, I probably had six lifelong friends. I can count'em on, on, on a hand and a half, and the rest were there, and supportive. So I talked, I told that story to vp Tara Harrington in the specialty pharma side of the business. I'm very proud of her. And she's, her background is a nurse. She's an RN by formal trade. I think people in the medical field have that empathy and compassion by trade or by nature. She was in the business unit, she was the vp. I told her that story and she asked me to tell my story to her team, her business unit. So I did. And we talked about e a P and breaking the barrier. And I presented it and then I said, I'm gonna use that same model of small group support events at the company. And Tara supported it and we announced it by email and we said we're gonna limit it to 12 people. It filled up in eight minutes. People wanted to come and share, and we had ground rules. You know what said there stays there, my pain is not greater than yours and so forth. And it took off and it went from a business unit model to now it's corporate. And I'm talking about Cardinal Health, my last company and the last year I was there, we expanded it to India and the Philippines. And so, culture for a business leader to say, well, that's not gonna work in my country. The culture's too strong. It's the same everywhere. Any, it's the stigma barrier. So, Part of that program design was to go to HR and benefits. And when I told them what I was doing and what, why I wanted to do it, their first reaction was, you need to stay in securities lane. Right? Stay in your lane. But when I started talking about the crossover and the impact to respectful workplace and bullying and worst case workplace violence, then they said, makes sense. Let's team up. So, that's where collaboration and connection and trust. I already had my trust built up with those leaders for nine years. And I was on my 10th year before I decided to leave that company to go back to consulting and do more volunteer work to help people. So that program took off and I'm helping other companies do that. And I have a new model for Respectful workplace related to workplace violence and it's epha it emphasized on stigma and mental health. It's a wonderful, to your point about, being in a cast because you've slipped, tripped, and you've got something very visible, you get a very positive attention, don't you? When you've broken a leg and you've got that visible cast and it's usually a bit of fun. It's like, oh, let me write on it, and how did you do that? Your blanca, but if you're talking about mental health it's got such a negative connotation. I don't know the origins about that or if it's just because of, centuries of horrible stories of poor mental health, just not being treated. And you can, imagine, crazy scenarios of just humans just not acting. Quite like themselves. So where are we in the journey now, John? Because I feel that there's a consciousness that we all know now what is appropriate, what isn't appropriate. We know that we can't ridicule. The ban has gone, the humor, the comedians can't touch it. Or if they do, it's usually from a personal perspective, we're getting there. But where are we in the journey? I think it's getting a lot better, but it depends on the individual. If they want to take that risk, you can do it two ways. You can learn on your own and maybe join a group that's confidential like nami, because you wanna, you want to tell somebody, you want to have somebody, a confidant that you can trust that you're on the spectrum and you're struggling and something's going on with you. Maybe it's a separation, maybe it's a loss of there's layoffs going on and the anxiety of. How am I gonna survive? How am I gonna pay my rent? Just to talk to somebody to say, Hey, I'm anxious. I'm stressed out. I'm worried. I think that's a huge first step. Just opening your soul to somebody you trust, I think is the first. Well, is the main thing. The other is to get aware, understand the spectrum, understand diagnosis, understand self-care, and understand what's going on inside of you. It's the main thing. So that's a big educational piece. The stigma piece is still strong because if I share something at work, are they gonna think I'm weak or I'm not dependable? Am I not gonna get a promotion? Am I not gonna get the tough assignment? Is the team gonna be think Not up to being able to pull my weight, even though I've had this condition for three years and I've had top ratings every year and everybody thinks the world of me. But when I come home I collapse on the sofa cuz I'm just, stressed out. I'm doing all these things right, but I really would like to share that I'm struggling. So it depends on the corporation and the corporate culture. We're seeing some companies starting to be aware and it's, if you frame it the right way about presenteeism and turnover and the cost of mental health at work some companies are really understanding it. And a simple example is just how they talk about e a p. Some companies just have a poster on the wall and here's the 800 number. I, they never talk about it, but now, I can talk 20 minutes just on e a p, the benefits, the mechanics of it and so forth. And the fact that I say I've used it and I still have a therapist just like going to the gym. You have a swim coach or guitar instructor, piano, you need help. And that's vulnerability. I have a model with the characteristics of a security professional. I think from a security culture piece and being vulnerable is so important. I think. So I think the new generation is leading the way. The trust and groups like the group that that Mike has stood up, it's now up to us as individuals to take that first step. So even if you don't want to touch it at work, at least in. Your community. There's resources out there. And then the other great piece on therapy to self-help is helping somebody else. The act of giving or helping somebody, helping an elderly person with their groceries or opening the door. Or there's always something you can help somebody with any given moment, right? Or just being nice to somebody, smiling at somebody or asking them hello or saying hello, right? There's a million chances to interact and practice your empathy and maybe a little bit of compassion. So to your question, where are we on the journey? I think depends your makeup as a person. We talked about some folks that are rigid in our profession and feel that we're, the enforcers and we're the protectors. That's true. We protect people, but how we do it is the differentiator and how we connect with each other is, I think, there's the term next generation security leaders. Well, the generations now, I mean, you don't have to say next or generation. It's now, I'm 63 and I'm still learning. I want to go another 10 or 12 years cuz I love what I'm doing and just helping. So the, I've been blessed with a lot of recognitions and called business trusted business partner and so forth. And I love it and I'm grateful. But the one title that I most treasure is mental health confidant. Somebody that can come and tell their story cuz they trust me. And that's really important, especially when today. And nowadays, especially on LinkedIn, you are, we are reading all the time about bullying in the workplace. Yeah. And it seems to be like endemic of just being in the workplace that somebody at some point is gonna be the wrong hand of a bully. Yeah. And it's causing us, isn't it, to take a long, hard look about management styles, management techniques, those old fashioned kind of autocratic ones. You do it because I tell you to do it kind of things all going out the window it should have done in the eighties anyway. But why do you think bullying is so prolific? And I wondered if you thought or even can share whether it's just a projection of individuals internal torment. if you project your own wretchedness, you make other people feel bad around you. I think you hit it right on the head. I'm not a clinician, but I feel like I have a PhD in life, so Yes. At your age, John. Yes. I've seen a, but I'm not an expert. I have a little wisdom and I've done things that I like helping people. But to your point on bullying now, I think it's more pronounced. I think it's always been there and that I think it ties to mental health on the spectrum. And, some people don't know this, but aggression and anger are symptoms can be symptoms of depression. Right. It doesn't you, when you hear. When you hear the word, somebody's depressed or I'm depressed, or depression, you think of somebody that doesn't get outta bed or doesn't, personal hygiene or, just no motivation to do anything. Well, being aggressive and aggression and the trigger piece or maybe their psychopaths or sociopaths, a small percentage that are either born that way or formed into sociopaths I think are recognized more and the awareness is more. But I think covid, at least over here the the discourse and the conflict starts at home. I mean, just with Covid, do you take the jab, like you guys call this jab over there, the shot, right? There's two camp. Yeah, it was two camps. Take the shot or not. Yeah. And then there's, I think the conspiracy theory was take the vaccination and be a sheep, or don't take it and survive. And it was a horrible conspiracy theory to be honest. It was just that topic was a topic of contention and disagreement and stress divisive, isn't it? Then there's, the dysfunction in the in the family. And I grew up in a dysfunctional family environment. But there was some wonderful things too. Anybody that didn't have dysfunction, they're really lucky. Or I don't know what percentage of them are there. I think they're rare. Very rare. Yeah. And in the, yeah, and in the US there's the race relations, the political discourse. So the stress and the conflict is really high. So that's just at home. So people are, were coming to work with those beliefs, those internal struggles and stressors, and we're getting triggered at work for things that we really shouldn't. Right. And as simple as being told to finish a project or take on a new project, some folks are not dealing with stress very well, and it's not good for their mind or their body. Yeah. 400 workplace violence events. John is phenomenal. I mean, do any of those involve by any means? Any of these kind of mass shooting incidents? I had one when I was consulting with a client. It was a murder at a workplace, but it was tied to a, it was in me, in Mexico, a US corporation. And back then by Mexican labor law, they had to pay in cash. It's, it changed and we're talking about the nineties and again, broke into Rob. And on the way out, an employee was having a snack on a picnic table and heard the commotion runs to the front and one of the criminals turns and shoots him in the head and kills him. So it wasn't employee on employee violence, it was an external party, which happens sometimes. So that was one but that was more reactive after the fact. But the majority, I haven't had, I've been fortunate to have a terrible event happen like this happening in the workplace. We've had some, a lot of threats, a lot of folks that, violated that policy and the law. The way we treated the person made the world a difference. And that goes back to company corporate and security culture. It starts with the day one of employment, how we treat new hires and how we explain what our culture of a respectful workplace at this location is part of our values. And we hold each other accountable. It starts there versus reactive and maybe having a workplace violence policy that when you're onboarded, you're given a copy or you're shown at some point in your career, and then it, it fades in, in a minute, but yet you hold people accountable. Then you go into the reactive piece, how you manage that person is so critical. If they violate again, the policy and they have to leave the company how you treat them. On that separation procedure. I mean, I know America is a vast country, but 160 mass shootings in the USA to date John. Yeah. That's phenomenal amount, isn't it? Right. And how many of those, I mean, Mike and I often have this question with each other because we obviously know of the ones that happened very recently, and in each case, I've said to him, I wonder if that was a mental health issue that wasn't ever flagged up, managed, where what were the signs leading up to that event? Why would a young man go to his workplace and just start shooting people he works with? What's the journey to that point? And I think that's where my curiosity sits. What's the journey to that point? Because people should be able to go to work, shouldn't they? And feel safe. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that, that's part of the stressors at work, and it manifests in different behaviors. So yeah every case on these shootings is different. And there's different variables, different events. Some have a mental health component, maybe they're not, maybe they don't have a diagnosis, but they're on that mental health spectrum and there's a grievance. They're grieved somehow and they can't manage that and address it and speak openly and say, Hey, I don't like how I've been treated here. I'd like the company to. Be aware. So it all comes down to company culture and security. Culture is a big part of that and part of company culture is again, how you position safety and security from the beginning of their employment and how often leadership talks about it and how the culture of the site. Cause you know, I talk about cultures in my training and there's really three levels of corporate culture. This the corporate office, then the business units leaders and the site leadership, the site leaders. You might have 20 facilities in your country and each leader prioritizes what's important or what isn't. So if you have some, like Tara in the case, that business she understood mental health and she said, come talk to my folks. Right. So it depends on the culture of every facility. I think there's a bigger piece here. I think there isn't even the support structure that if an employee was that concerned about a member of staff, let's just move ourselves on say five, 10 years and we're in this environment now where you can flag up concerns of welfare about an employee. At the moment we don't even have, certainly here in the uk no one's really equipped to deal with that. And I'm gonna give you an a, a classic example, flagging up to an employee that somebody potentially is on what we call the prevent spectrum, which is, the very beginnings of radicalization because it's been spotted through words and notions and beliefs and values, right? You flag that up to the business and they're like, what do you want us to do with it? I genuinely think, especially with mental health, How can we flag up that we're concerned about an employee's welfare and all everyone's gonna do is go into this kind of like awkward, I call it the Prince Charles moment, where you go like, dunno. Do you know what I mean? It's all keen Prince Charles now. But I just don't think that businesses are even equipped, but unless we start perhaps getting them into a risk mindset failure to act on information provided that ultimately leads to consequences resulting in death of other employees must make businesses more culpable. And maybe that's the only way we're gonna get businesses to kind of come up with good, robust policies. some companies have good policies and procedures, but how often do they live it? Yeah. And not just policies and procedures, but always wanting to improve. Maybe there's a guest speaker that can come and talk about mental health. Maybe they want to join some group like nami. The more thing, and it doesn't, it just takes time and a little bit of resource, and security and corporate security. The biggest two costs or capital are sec security technology and guard force labor cost, right? We all the, all our practitioners, we know that the other things, policy and procedure, the resources time, but how you work with the business leaders to understand the value and get their buy-in is where the art comes in. Yeah. How you communicate, how you present the rationale and the value. There's, you have to try, you have to never give up. You have to learn what other companies are doing, what other security professionals are doing. And there's, you look at, the, I want that mentality or bias. If there's an article in Forbes Magazine or, I don't know what the big business periodicals are in in, in Europe, but if there's an article about mental health or mental wellness or respectful workplaces, and in that article they cite fortune five, fortune 10 companies by name and some citations from those business leaders about what they did innovative and the value that they're seeing. Those are the things that we need to bring forward in a concise and precise manner. Not the whole article here vp. Here's the three page article. Versus summarize it in five bullet points in an email and say, we're involved in mental wellness as this could connect to workplace violence and respectful workplace. I'm summarizing this really interesting article in Forbes that mentions, three of the top 10 companies. Here's the takeaways and here's the attachment in case you want to read it. Right? That is precise and concise and the right way to communicate. And you, they're gonna read those five bullet points, right? And if you already have credibility and trust with'em and they see it coming in from you and they know that you've always sent them tight and concise information, that, and you bring me good stuff that makes me think or makes me be a better leader or helps'em protect our people or the business, I'm gonna take time to read it. So if you can get groundswell through the business leaders, not everything has to come corporate down. I've worked with companies and I've lived it at that site level leader that embracing or Tara at the VP level. And then, leaders talk up and down and laterally with their peers, the good stuff and the bad stuff, right? So if you have a good story about mental health that, that Tara told their other VPs said, I want that. Yeah. And that's where the calls and the emails came to me and said, Hey, Tara just briefed us at the VP level, VP and above, or senior leader level talk, and I really like what she's doing and you guys are doing I want to talk more and come out to my site and let's do the same thing. So that's the skill of human con connection and being innovative. And b I think I sent you the model. It's a kind of a mind map with trust and communication and vulnerability, innovation and perception. This is the Scapa model. Yep. So we'll make sure the Scapa models available. We'll provide also a link to your member associations. We'll also provide John Rodriguez's LinkedIn account so people can link directly to you. And if we could provide that Forbes article link, we can provide that as well. John, what's coming up for you? Oh, ask me again. What's coming up next for you before we finish up? Well, I've got a playful with clients that we're doing innovative work. I'm mentoring some folks hopefully we might see each other at G S X, but you know, the volunteer work with NAMI that I mentioned earlier, and enjoying my grandkids and my family, my kids just living life, trying to help people, and sharing any thoughts that anybody might be interested in listening. We really appreciate you John, thank you for giving it to us whats and all actually, and for sharing such a personal account of your family. Thank you for being a guest on the Security Circle podcast. It's an honor I really loved chatting with you and I hope we can do it again. Brilliant. And also thank you for being a listener. We are a global podcast now and we appreciate you.