EP 081 Leigh Turner: 'My mission to expose rogue security operators that give the industry a bad name

BIO

CEO/Founder: Elite Tactical Force LTD │ Ambassador/Rep: Security Industry Federation │ Course Writer: Alison │ Partner: Tactical Group │ CEO: E.T.F.A - Education. Training. Facility. Assessment │ CEO: Project Dreams

Chief Executive Officer of Elite Tactical Force Limited & Elite Tactical Force Academy.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/uicorps/

Security Circle ⭕️  is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

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0:01

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Yoyo 0:44

Hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. IFPO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, and we are dedicated to providing meaningful education and certification for all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference to our members mental health and well being. And our listeners are global. we were informed this year that we are in the top 25 percent of podcast downloads in the world, the whole world. And our listeners are global. they are the decision makers of today and tomorrow, and we want to thank you wherever you are for being a part of the security circle. If you love the podcast, we are on all podcast platforms. Don't forget to subscribe or just like comment and share, if you will, the LinkedIn post. You're going to want to share this one. I have with me today, a very entrepreneurial young man. He is the CEO founder of Elite Tactical Force. He's going to tell you very soon why he's taken up a personal mission. Leigh Tana. Welcome. To the Security Circle Podcast. Thanks for joining us today.

Leigh 1:52

Thank you for that.

Yoyo 1:53

Leigh, you have reached notoriety on LinkedIn and that's how I found you. I discovered you because of your content, great content. You have a personal mission, don't you? To root out some rogue behavior in the security industry in the UK. What's been going on?

Leigh 2:10

Well, for the past couple of months, uh, we have noticed like a number of WhatsApp groups. Providing shifts and those shifts have been practically given out below the national living wage. Some of them have even been so horrendous that they've gone for seven pounds an hour. Not even just that, we've also noticed that they are fast ball jobs. So they are given out to anyone and anyone with, with a license or without a license.

Yoyo 2:39

so let's circle back then. What's the living wage at the moment for a security officer to go and do a, let's just say a very standard, ordinary job?

Leigh 2:51

So, the national minimum wage for like age 21 and for 18 to 20 year olds is 8. 60.

Yoyo 3:04

Right. So, these WhatsApp groups are basically selling off shifts to the first taker, 7 an hour. How is that happening,

Leigh 3:15

Leigh? Well, for one, you've got your tiers of providers. So, what happens is as it goes down the tier, The price actually drops and continuously drops, but there is like worst case scenarios where people are actually working for a tier one or a tier two or tier three even, and they're actually being offered a 12 pound hour job, which ain't being taxed. Any of like the national assurance contributions or even pension or holiday So there's a big factor in it of tax evasion fraud you have them, ones where they're at tier five So you'll have companies that will have like the acs accreditation where they cannot subcontract to another Company that ain't acs approved. But what we're seeing is that actually That's not the case because the loophole within the ACS is actually to labor provide. So because that loophole exists, they can basically say, all right, can you cover this shift? And then that provider would then take that shift, take two, three to four pounds off of the hourly rate and give it to the ACS. a member of the public, which is either licensed or not licensed, or inappropriately trained to actually man these doors.

Yoyo 4:38

So in our security industry, we quite often hear the term, jacket fillers, don't we? And, and it's not a nice term. but I can see now, why when you go down that tier, into sort of second, third and fourth tier, each tier is shaving off its own profit margin. So you're getting to the very bottom where, quite frankly, very decent, well trained security officers will not take those shifts. So you're left with a pool, aren't you, of unqualified, maybe desperately needing training and support, maybe language skills, maybe just lack of experience. And so these are the ones who are going to jump in. and take that shift for seven pounds because they desperately need to work and earn money.

Leigh 5:25

Yeah, totally agree. Half of them are basically doing it to avoid the vetting process because they just want a job now. there's also been companies that's come to me and they've said, Leigh, people just message me and they say, give me job. When you mentioned the vetting process, the first thing they do is they don't want to know.

Yoyo 5:45

It's a bit worrying because there's a market of humans there that are very Easy to exploit. And when someone says, give me a job, then they can literally be bullied into taking any work for any little amount of money as possible. And you just wouldn't think that with ACS, which is a great standard to have across security providers, you wouldn't think that it would be so easily exploitable with all those checks and balances in place.

Leigh 6:19

Well, again, it comes down to the companies themselves to actually do their due diligence and making sure that they actually follow the guidelines and make sure they do the research on the company providers of providing labor. They have to make sure that they've got their pay pay systems in place. They're screening. We look at the facts and. How many of them actually really care?

Yoyo 6:45

Having been in the recruitment process myself for hiring security officers, I mean, it was going back a few years now, but I remember once a man sitting in front of me and he was very hireable. I thought, yep, he's presentable, smart, speaks good English, very hireable. Because he had chosen to stay at home for a year, and his wife go out to work, he wasn't hireable because he couldn't be vetted. He couldn't be vetted because he hadn't made any national insurance contributions. Even though he said his wife earned above the minimum for him to have benefits, he still needed to sign on to have the national insurance contributions paid. And without those national contributions being paid, He wasn't hireable, he couldn't be vetted, or it would be extremely difficult to get him vetted, looking at bank account details, proving he was in the UK and not in prison. There's extraordinary measures to get that over the line. But back then, there was neither the time or the inclination for those extra measures when you're looking to hire en masse. So these young men and women who are taking these gimme job jobs, who are not paying that insurance, are ultimately Harming their ability to be genuinely vetted in this industry, aren't they?

Leigh 8:06

Yeah, we just got a look at the, obviously the increase of numbers of license holders and the international students, like they've got literally I think it's 20 hours work that they can have on their visa, student visa. And what they'll do is they'll overexceed it and taking cash in our jobs. So with other companies like the event sector, the nighttime economy sector, they all have a role to play within this duty of task. Because most of the jobs that we're seeing are either, like your Glastonbury, for example. what's the other one? Download Festival. there's just a wide variety of jobs going through. Some of them are even down to nuclear facilities, there should be a tier system there for your actual screening, but with the,, labor providers, it seems to be like, all right, I'll create a company, give it over to the big boys, tier ones, tier twos, tier threes. Let's get this money in which then creates that boundary where skimming is happening.

Yoyo 9:13

And so skimming, in fact, I've heard this phrase by an associate of ours known as the marigold side of the security industry, these are the ones that Do the dirty work. That means they get the bodies. They fill the jackets. They can go into, like you said, any number of different, areas where security is required and be unskilled, not be paying PAYE, not having that insurance pay, being on the lowest possible level. rate and not being supported. So then you've got other bigger issues. There's no insurance in place. There can't be an insurance in place for somebody like that. There's no vetting in place. So how do we even know, what we have in a security uniform? Give me some of the locations where you know, through your investigations, where you know, unvetted, untrained security officers have been put on site?

Leigh 10:13

Well, let's put it this way. It's not a small area within everything that we've seen so far. It is a national scale, so it can vary from London, Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, going all the way out. The only one places that you're not finding it is in your villages and little towns.

Yoyo 10:34

Right, so it's city driven and the types of organizations you said, nuclear facilities, we've talked about festivals and music events, we will talk about Manchester Arena in a minute, any government, what about polling? What about all of these areas that where ministers have needed support? Do you know if that's been affected too?

Leigh 10:58

There was one location that popped up. Again, it. It's a problem that companies need to start realizing that you can't just put a jacket filler in or bums on seat. You need to make sure that every single requirement that you have to perceive as what you would do in your tender processes or any type of contract you have with your clients, you've got to make sure you do your external audits. Make sure you check the companies out properly and thoroughly to make sure everything's all compliant. If it's not compliant, then you're going to have all these problems continuously, like the polling station that we've seen, the Manchester Arena, which was,

Yoyo 11:43

yeah. And there were a lot of findings from that incident, Leigh, not withstanding the training and ability of the, inexperienced security officers, working on that location was highlighted as being deficient. And this is worrying. So, look, I appreciate. You're doing a lot of work, and I know that you're not doing this alone, that you have almost like a little army of people here working behind the scenes to almost, as I suppose I would phrase it, suffocate the space that these rogue operators can maneuver in. You're seeing security companies popping up all the time, new names, new companies, what's happening there.

Leigh 12:28

So within the WhatsApp world, you'll see it once you take one down, another head pops up once they get caught out and they've been reported, what will happen is that whole organization will collapse and they'll recreate a new one by jumping back on Facebook and popping back up on a WhatsApp group. But what they'll do is they will go onto one WhatsApp group that's already been formed. And then they will create their own because now they have the following.

Yoyo 13:00

So it's a methodology, isn't it? Facebook seems to be, I know there's lots of Facebook groups where security officers, join up and communities where they can talk and share information. But in fairness, this isn't just affecting the security industry, is it? We now know, well, we have discovered in this process that there is a market for renting, I don't want to mention, we won't mention company names, but if we say one of the most popular and modern taxi firms that also provides food, and also a couple of other companies that deliver food to your home, there's a, there's an undercurrent now of a kind of dark market isn't there where people are selling on and renting those licenses to be able to, so you could be getting into a taxi.

Leigh 13:49

Yeah.

Yoyo 13:50

In a firm that you believe there are checks and balances made and yet ultimately some guy has just basically rented that opportunity to somebody else who can't even drive. He hasn't even got a driving license and he's now driving you somewhere and that presents a huge risk. So there's a huge market of massive exploitation of people.

Leigh 14:10

Yeah, of course. does that, that company, obviously for them not to actually be monitoring their systems carefully and seeing who's actually doing it and doing their checks on the actual apps and systems. it's more than worrying because our job within the security industries to safeguard, protect and prevent the public and the client.

Yoyo 14:37

I've been on the front line, Leigh, my, my first frontline job was working in a shopping mall. And that was fun. and it isn't a great job. I remember feeling really tired and my shifts were always over 12 hours. They were always 13 hours. And that last hour was hell. There were always, patrols right through the night. dark areas, the back ends of buildings and checking that bins were blocking exits and you name it, all sorts of things. And you get to see a horrible side of life, especially if you're in a relatively public facing frontline role. Look, I did that because I wanted to have credibility in when I was transitioning from the police into security. And I thought, well, how can I come in and shape and change things if I haven't walked the walk, worn the shoes, 3am patrols. But I get it. And I'm thinking it's not the nicest of jobs most of the time, unless you've got a cushy number in London and you're sitting in a beautiful, luxurious, reception area.

Leigh 15:39

Yeah. Thank

Yoyo 15:40

you very much. Or you happen to be in the front row at Glastonbury and you get to see, Coldplay dance, which we saw only recently when a security officer was brought onto the stage by, Chris himself. Look, it's not glamorous, so sometimes you have to ask why people do it. And then when you're looking at the number of people trading in jobs, on that black market, they're in those WhatsApp groups. You can't help but think, why are those people choosing this option to earn money and not other options? Is it because the backdoor is so wide open with this, that it's exploitable and open to anybody to abuse?

Leigh 16:22

Interesting you say that. Most of them know that they can't pass the vetting process because they haven't got the five years, work history, some of them might not even have the rights to work, or Their visa has overextended its 20 hour work limit. So it does cause a big concern like from recently we've seen One person put up there saying that they're in six grand debt because they're at a uni and they can't afford it in these whatsapp groups kind of sit there and think to yourself if this is the state You Of what's going on in the black market via these whatsapp groups. What else is hidden? beneath the surface.

Yoyo 17:08

Leigh, you've put on, LinkedIn, a number of different screenshots from some of these WhatsApp groups where it proves it evidences. So from the little information, you can tell the location. You can probably, if you put the postcode in, tell that it's a popular top five supermarket, or you can tell that it's, a specific venue. And you can see the desperation of people. You can see how badly they want to work. And you can see https: otter. ai How much is always the most common question because these folk know that they're not going to get paid great rates, but on top of that, some of them aren't even getting paid, are they? These companies are so rogue, like, if this isn't rogue enough, they're not even paying the people who are doing these shifts.

Leigh 17:55

Well, from a conversation I had recently, not just one person, but a group of individuals wasn't paid for over two months. And when I actually spoke to the person about that, they said it was 1, 000 just for two months. Now, if we look at the national minimum wage and calculate that, that isn't minimum wage.

Yoyo 18:19

No.

Leigh 18:20

And that is a Monday to Friday shift.

Yoyo 18:24

I noticed that some of the jobs you've posted up, some of the screenshots, they're for full time work. Sometimes they even say, you get paid two months later. Like who does that now? Who gets paid two months later? And some people are saying at the end of the shift, right? So you're thinking, well, that's a cash and hand job. There's no way that could have been at that short notice process through, if that person's going to get paid at the end of the shift, it's going to be very low. It will be definitely not vetted and definitely no PAYE in tax.

Leigh 18:55

But it's the fast ball of the jobs and unfortunately when they go out, they're either here and now or there'll be weeks ahead and then you'll get the information prior to that timing.

Yoyo 19:11

When the human slavery legislation came in a few years ago, we were all trained on it. and yet it seems, doesn't it, that for this Sort of dark, rogue area of security man guarding to thrive and exist and keep re emerging. It's almost like it's not being taken seriously. There are laws here. There are certainly tax evasion laws, HMRC. We don't have a trade association in the security industry, I know. What help can we provide? And I appreciate it's not always easy, but what help do you need? Do you need more people to be observers and witnesses for you? Do you need people to, gather more evidence for you? what help do you need to try to keep, because it's not a one man job, this is it?

Leigh 19:57

No, it's not. If it was, me per se, by myself, It would be a struggle just to get it out there and get more people to pay attention to it. But what we do need more of is more vigilance and more people reporting it to individual bodies. So report it to the SIA, report it to the GLAA, report it to HMRC. The more you report to these bodies, the more they can do their job and get the highest prosecution rate that you could ever think of. Because when you report it to one body It doesn't necessarily mean that it's done. you can report it to the SIA. They just have their small little remit. But as soon as you report to HMRC, now that becomes fraud and tax evasion. When you report it to the GLA, now that goes to the, NCA. And the NCA can then go further and deeper into these prosecutions and dig that deeper than what anybody else can do. Because it is a corporate crime.

Yoyo 21:03

Vetting has always been an underpinning fundamental foundation for working within the security manguarding industry to have the security license with the SIA. You have to have the vetting process. there's so many things that can jeopardize your vetting as well. But. Why, do we have a large workforce of humans who want to work, who want to earn money, who can't be vetted? Like isn't there, bearing in mind we have a shortage right now, we have a shortage of personnel, don't we? In the security industry. So if you're recruiting for festival or like Glastonbury, I should imagine it's a little bit of hell on earth. But we'd hoped that maybe the high demand would maybe have an increase on pay because the pay for a security officer has always been rock bottom. And, I remember when I was head of security, for a kind of like a big dairy firm and I remember one of the security officers, a really trusted,, wonderful human being came to me and he said, I've just found out. The cleaner earns more than me per hour. And he rolled his eyes and I rolled my eyes and I'm like, what do you do? What do you do? The industry has always had challenges and that still happens. Doesn't it?

Leigh 22:19

Yeah, it does. And to be fair, I believe that when it comes down to the industry, we need a set wage. It needs to be set to a certain standard. And never go below because we're there doing multiple roles, multiple, innovations with that to not just protect the public. We're there to prevent the client. We're also there to make sure that the health and safety is met. We're there to obviously be them, first aiders or first responders. We're there to make sure that we're first call to the protocol of any other problems. So we can obviously report it to the police and to other bodies and make sure that our reports are at the most accurate. So when you put that into consideration, we are the first responders.

Yoyo 23:06

What do we do with all those people, though, who do want to work, who obviously want to be in security, but can't be for all the reasons we've talked about?

Leigh 23:16

I think what they need to do is start from the basics again and get that feel. And make sure that they're meeting the requirements that's needed. So if they have got language barriers, go and take a course that can help you, challenge that. And put yourself in a predicament where we have good communication, we obviously have no language barriers, and just break down the cycle a little bit more, and go with reputable companies that post their jobs up. Yes, the vetting process is a pain in the backside. Everyone knows it. Some people hate it that they outsource it to somebody else. I don't know why but to be fair it gives them that reputation to turn around and say right here's the vetting file They're clean. They're good. They're ready to go try to not get yourself into one of these traps where they'll turn around and say Oh, yeah, you'll get paid more if you take cash in hand because the reality is you would not be getting more. The only difference is taking the illegal way is going to cost you more than it would take in the legit way.

Yoyo 24:19

And let's face it, Leigh, you're never out of a job if you've done it legit and you've got your SIA license and you're vetted and you do everything to stay in work, keep your job, get paid. You're never out of work. Ironically, when you've done all those checks and balances. When you've got that SIA license, that's a license to work

Leigh 24:41

and

Yoyo 24:41

earn money, right?

Leigh 24:42

Well, you can transfer from different companies, it's not about, oh, yeah, I'm going to go do this and take cash in hand 24 seven, because at the end of the day, when it comes down to your state pension. And your contributions being paid back to you, you're not going to get anything from the government because you've not paid into anything.

Yoyo 25:01

There are some more checks and balances that, if we're going to look at efficacy and look at this in a very ethical way. All clients who manage a service provider should have it in KPIs and make checks and balances to make sure that subcontractors are not being used where they shouldn't be used. And that's easy done. Let's talk to new faces. New Face is on site. Hey, how's it going? Do you like it here? Do you like it in reception? Any problems? Are they showing you where the food is? You know, da, da, da, da, da, da. So, how long have you been working for this company then? it's not hard to find out when a new face turns up on site. clients can do the checks and balances. Then you've got your tier one provider. Normally these big companies are highly legislated. They have all the ACS requirements. They tend to have great hiring and vetting capabilities. You're unlikely to see any sort of malfeasance going on at this level, or are you?

Leigh 26:04

It depends if their eyes are open.

Yoyo 26:07

Okay.

Leigh 26:08

If their eyes are open and they can see everything and making sure that their management team Down the line are actually doing what they're supposed to be doing because it's easy to get blindsided Like if someone was to come to me and say Leigh the contract's clear. There's no subcontracts nor anything like that i'm, obviously going to believe my management team, but also at the same time I need to question that and make sure that is Accurate because at the end of the day if your management team is telling you that there's something that it's all good cushy or perfect Sometimes it's normally too good to be true because we've got to look at this aspect. If a contract come up tomorrow from client B and client A, and it was on one of the WhatsApp, groups, the first question would be who's management of this contract. Go straight down there and find out, do your audit and make sure that this is actually compliant because if it isn't, you're going to lose the client's trust.

Yoyo 27:12

So this is the top 40, isn't it? The top 40 security providers in the UK. They have a responsibility then to make sure that this kind of rogue activity can't slip in. But even I've worked for companies where I mean, going back again it's like, you know, it's frowned upon to do X, Y, and Z, but it happens because sometimes they're just aren't alternatives. Is it possible that these bigger businesses, the more notoriously known, is it possible that they just can't survive without subcontracting out?

Leigh 27:48

There's probably about two organizations that I know that self deliver, and they're doing it very well, but it depends if they really want to make that transition to self deliver, but sometimes it comes down to the hope of or faith in themselves or their team that they just don't want to change that because. The profit margin is too big to deny and what tends to happen is if that profit margin has continuously been the flow of income for an executive amount of years, then they don't want to get rid of that because it can just continue flowing money through without even doing any vetting, any screening, any training.

Yoyo 28:32

So the worst case scenario is you've got a client team that turned a blind eye and they don't have checks and balances. You've got a tier one provider that, is providing, the right manpower, but aren't really self regulating or they are in denial themselves about how they're delivering. then you've got the tier two who are operating and usually struggling because they're having to do all of the grunt work with a lower margin. Because already the tier one has the greater margin. And so they're in a desperate situation. They use a tier three who are also going to take their share. And all of a sudden you'll see the price hitting rock bottom when the tier fours are involved. And then you've got a chain of. Negligence of unethical operating ways. What's the way to clear this up then, Leigh? We know the problem now. We know there's a challenge in recruiting into the industry. We know there's a pool of people there who can work, want to work, but can't do it legally for a number of different reasons because the vetting is there for a reason. What's the solution?

Leigh 29:44

I actually had this conversation yesterday, which was quite funny, actually, because every single organization that I actually talk with are SMEs. And they are the ones that normally get overshadowed by the criminality within the industry. And they are the, they are classed as the burden because they want to do everything correct. They are the ones that are ethnic, that business ethnics is their moral compass. They don't want to break any laws. They want to make sure that they're being compliant. 150%. They want to make sure that the staff and the right people, the training is in place for them. And when it comes down to your tier one, tier two, tier three, and tier four, they kind of turn a blind eye to these SMEs right at the bottom of that food chain. So in actual fact, if you go in for a small company, they're more prone to actually do the job correctly. Just the differences. is when it comes down to the charge rate, they probably might not even look at a tier one or tier two or tier three because they want to maximize their profit.

Yoyo 30:53

my question to you then, Leigh, look, a number of people obviously clearly know things aren't right. I'd like you, I feel sorry for that SME sized business because these are the ones that are pushing hard for the ACS accreditation. They want to win better, more qualitative customers. and clients and they want to grow from being in the top 50 to being in the top 30. there's a number of those businesses doing some great work right now. So you're going to need some more support. And if people listen to this and decide to come and support you, what's the sort of support that you need?

Leigh 31:27

Vigilance, more vigilant people are. The more aware they are, the more that obviously the reporting process could be much more clearer, much more accessible and push it forward to obviously clear out this rogue operation.

Yoyo 31:45

Are you looking for more people to step in and volunteer and be eyes and ears for you and help you do all of that qualitative reporting?

Leigh 31:53

yeah, that's what I created the UK S. I. C. A. for was for that robustness to obviously create a united industry. And when something pops up, we can obviously then get it pushed over to the, regulatory bodies, the other public bodies that's also involved with them. And just basically clean the industry from the inside out, because it's not just the regulators. That needs to be informed. We need to be doing our part too.

Yoyo 32:25

in kind of standing up and doing this, and I know that you've got some great close support in standing up and doing this, you've become the face of this though, of highlighting and exposing these marigold operations and rogue businesses. And quite frankly, a very outdated old fashioned business practices that shouldn't be in existence. It's certainly not. in England, which is one of the countries with one of the highest GDPs in the world. you just would have thought maybe there isn't space for this. In becoming the face of it, you've also faced some threats yourself, haven't you?

Leigh 33:02

Yes, I have. One, one of the threats that I had was where someone, wanted to find out where I lived. And what I look like so they could obviously try and see what I'm about and see who I am properly, but obviously with that it comes with a high number of threats and risks that you'll end up facing down the line. No, you never know who's around the corner. You don't know what's going to pop up on the day that you're out with your family.

Yoyo 33:36

I think most people that know you and I know the security community is a very supportive and loving one. I know that everybody is kind of supporting you and making sure that, you look after yourself, that you don't put yourself at risk. Even from looking at your posts, I think even I said, dude, seriously, just make sure that,, you've got eyes in the back of your head. Yeah. It's not right, to be honest with you, that anybody should be threatened for exposing this kind of activity, but what you're doing is something that nobody else is doing. in a sense, you are, you're living the story you're going to tell in the future, me.

Leigh 34:14

Hopefully I leave a legacy for the next future, security operators to look at what I've done to basically help them and benefit them, that they actually get a legitimate job. They get paid the right pay. They don't, they're not being exploited. They're actually getting the progression that they need to survive in the industry, because let's put it this way. We've got so much things against us at the moment as security operatives, that is. Unbelievable. We could be, one minute, the best person on the face of the earth, next minute, we're being villainized. we've seen it through a number amount of news articles. We've seen it with clients where they've turned around and said, oh yeah, I don't want him on the door because of X, Y, and Z. Or just a security operative doing his job, protecting the public, making sure that someone with a weapon doesn't cause any more harm.

Yoyo 35:11

Yeah. I think it was 2018 the last time a client said to me they didn't want a female security officer working night shifts.

Leigh 35:19

So biased. So biased. But like,

Yoyo 35:22

it's like 2018, not 1918 for goodness sake. You know?

Leigh 35:28

Yeah.

Yoyo 35:29

Crikey. I remember when I was in the police and I had to turn up to this guy's house because it was like two o'clock in the morning. He said he had somebody in the garden and this guy was really nervous, really shaking. And I turned up, the British police source, we don't have weapons. We have an ass and we have a spray. And I said, where did you see this activity then? I've turned up on my own. And he said, Oh, back on, I'll show you where it is. And so he opened the gate and then stood back and let me go in first. I'm like, all right then. I'm thinking, so in 2018, for a client to turn around and say, we don't want women working nights. And it wasn't because he didn't think it would be good enough. It was because he didn't think they were brave enough.

Leigh 36:10

We just got to look at the industry now. It's a male dominated industry, right? We need more women to come into the industry because it needs to be more diverse. Yeah. Right. And clients need to understand a woman can do even better job than what a male can do. Yeah. I mean,

Yoyo 36:29

look, I've seen greatness on both sides and I've seen the opposite on both sides. But yeah, in fact, only yesterday I was talking about how more women are needed in close protection. They have a huge range of different skills that, you know, that, that gender, particularly. imbues. I think if anything, I think we're seeing a nice transition and it's the good thing it's not scaring too many people by happening too fast.

Leigh 36:50

Yeah.

Yoyo 36:51

But it is happening. Leigh, look, all the best for, the work you're doing. And for those people who haven't said it, thank you for, doing the right thing. I know it's not easy. And I know that this rogue element, even if it started to professionalize itself, they could be contributing a great deal to the security industry by just following the rules and sticking within the legislative lines, but they're not. And while they're not, I'm sure you will continue to shine a light on that. Keep exposing the problem. And don't give up the good fight, my friend. Thank you for joining us. The Security Circle Podcast.

Leigh 37:31

Anytime.