EP 005 Lee Doddridge - 'Mental Health, and Military into Security'

‘Let's come off mute and speak‘ says Lee Doddridge about how we are struggling with Mental Health and PTSD.
We were delighted to speak to Lee and hear his story about his journey from the Military to Security, and his struggles with Mental Health and PTSD and why the Security Industry needs to do more to support colleagues with their Mental Health.

As a former Counter Terrorism Security Officer and member of the National Counter Terrorism Security Office (NaCTSO) , Lee holds both Licentiateship and Graduateship in Counter Terrorism Security Management, licensed and accredited by the Centre for Protection of the National Infrastructure (CPNI) NaCTSO national training program within the Security Service MI5. Lee has worked at a strategic level within many national boards to ensure the protective security and counter terrorism work streams are aligned to government strategies and business preparedness and continuity.

In addition owning and directing Covsec Ltd (T/N Covenant) Lee is also a Director of Revuit Ltd, specialising in Risk Assessments, he is also the External Events Director as a board member of the Association if Security Consultants (ASC).

Thank you to our sponsor who sponsored this episode TI Digital Solutions
www.theinsightsolutions.com

Security Circle ⭕️  is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

Yoyo 0:31

Hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. This is an F pot production for if PO the very first security podcast called security circle. If polo is the international foundation for protection officers, we are dedicated to providing meaningful education and certification. For all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference to our members, mental health and wellbeing.

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Join us and our special guests. As we delve into all the matters security related that matter to you. Find us at www dot F pod. Dot org And hello, welcome back we've got a very special guest with us. Our guest joining Ash and I this morning is Lee Doish. Now some of you might know Lee, some of you might not know Lee, but uh, if you do know Lee, you'll know that he has done some outstanding work to represent us in the security industry in some of the, um, major media outlets. Uh, I'm gonna hand over and say hello Lee. How you doing? Good morning. Hello? Hello and hello Ash. Ash is on mute. Oh God. That, that's so last year. I'm so sorry. It's alright. It's say 2020 though, is this, well, listen, I don't, I dunno. A person who hasn't done it, but listen. Hi Ash. How's it going? I, I'm, I'm very well, thank you. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. Yeah, no, Ashley, you know what you've done the first thing that we need to talk about and that's come off mute and. Yeah, exactly. A key thing for today. Yeah. And do you know what? For that reason, Lee, I'm not gonna edit that out. So let's keep it in uh, lead Dridge. Tell us about that. Let's start off by saying why do we need to come off mute and speak out? You know what, I think the security industry for years, a bit like the police, the military. Everyone looks at it as this almost like hardcore industry, um, where signs of weakness can't be displayed, emotions can't be displayed, and I think that's probably the biggest blockage we have for people talking about mental health and their wellbeing. Um, you think of the close protection officer. The, the mindset and the work that they do. People don't want to say, even if they're feeling poorly, let alone actually I've got serious problems. Um, so just like Ash did, we have to come off mute. We have to start talking to people, um, and actually work together. It's, it's not a weakness, it's an illness that needs to be treated, but we can do that if we hear about it and talk it through and get treated. So Lee, one of the, so most neglected areas within the industry is mental health and wellbeing as well. And we're in an industry where, you know, we are unsure and we struggle to talk to our fellow colleagues and, you know, be just simple things like, are you okay? And, and even sharing our own feelings. But we're also trained to approach, you know, potential threat actors. So for example, terrorists to approach them to say hello. Can I help you? Um, so what can we do to improve our, our approach as an industry to, uh, to the mental health issue? You know, I, I think maybe look at it from a different approach. So rather than talking about mental health, why don't you focus on how to maintain wellbeing? So rather than looking at it as a negative, look at it as a positive and say, would that be a better approach? Would that make people more likely to open up and discuss things? So rather than having a mental health issue, we are talking about how would, how do we maintain wellbeing? And I know it may only sound as if it's a word change, but actually would people be more willing to say, I'm doing okay. And then during that conversation, there's a few areas where maybe I'm not rather than, Them trying to turn, man, look and say, well, I, I, I've got a mental health issue. So I think maybe a different approach would be the, the best way. I love that. Uh, walkers Chris Sabert, you know, the one where the guy walks into the house and his emoji, which is known only to us. It reflects his true feelings and anxieties, whereas his face and what he says is giving off another message to his family and friends. And I dunno if you know the one, but it's the one where he ends up going into the kitchen and his friend says, you know, how are you really? I dunno what it is about that. There's just something about how that emoji that connects all of us can say, you know, to all of us how someone is truly feeling. I know mental health has been a huge part of your journey. I'd love to hear how you got to where you are today and discovering P T S D Lee. Well, you know what I mean? That's that analogy and that link between the two is exactly what happened to me. Um, a really good friend of mine recognized. Symptoms in me. And literally said like, you know, how are you really feeling? And I have to go back and say, actually, I won't mention his full name, but Phil, you saved my life. Cuz he recognized what he had gone through and saw it in me. Um, I mean, in a nutshell, I mean obviously. Military experience led into the policing, but it was the, the military side of things that, resonated obviously back, sorry. In future with the, with the P T S D. So during the, the Bosnia crisis, I was one of a team of eight who was held hostage for 36 days. There were many more guys taken by Serbian forces. Um, but, you know, at at, at the time when that happened, we didn't really think too much about it. It was just part of the job. I was one of those guys that you called, was Army. Army. Um, loved doing my work, loved the Army. Um, my very ex tour, I volunteered. In fact, I, um, did a, a process so that I could do a surveillance role in Northern Ireland living in hedgerows, you know, eating cold food. I, I won't go into too much detail about what we did with the Cling film. Um, but I, my work wasn't affected later down the line, and I didn't realize this until I got diagnosed, but the average age of P T S D patients is 46 to 47, which probably covers a massive amount of our security industry in that sort of middle-aged bracket. So I was 46 when I was diagnosed, and then 47 when my treatment started. The, the real game changer for me was my. Treatment started the month after lockdown kicked in. So I did my treatment, um, online via teams with N H S Veterans Wales, which was great. But the big thing for me was, cuz we were locked in for like six months, eight months, I can't remember how long it was now, but I was surrounded by my family who literally wrapped their arms around me and said, it's okay, dad is okay. Um, and for me that helped. So it was, you know, the fact that somebody recognized it in within me, given that treatment, but actually having that family support and the friendship support, cuz I didn't wanna tell anybody else outside my family what I had. Um, but over a period of time I was able to, you know, talk to other friends, colleagues and get that support. But the one thing I had to do was talk. I had to do what we did at the start of this come off. So you, you mentioned Phil, so, um, and obviously you, you was quite lucky that you had Phil and Phil gave you some time to, to talk to you. But do you think as an industry, so we should do, mandatory training around mental health and mental wellbeing? so for example, a s i s or, or even with the Security Institute as part of the C P D program or the rectification program with ass, I. There are some mandatory training programs that we have to complete as part of that to, to address this issue of mental health. Yeah, no, a absolutely. I mean, one of my roles is I'm a the director of the Association of Security Consultants, and I'm the external events director. So all the, not the, the external events, the, whether it's the exhibitions, shows, whatever it is, but also with training events. And I think there's a key part to put in with whatever association. Well, you know, security Institute, ACEs, whatever. Is have that mental health input. I mean, as professionals when we are working, we'd always have our annual health and safety reviews, our diversity side of things. Why aren't we including mental health or wellbeing within that one thing? You see, it's a critical part, um, that should be included in every year. So, It sounds to me, Lee, with all of your experience that the security industry isn't getting a lot right. And if you could change three things or even two key things, um, to get the security industry to look at itself in a different way, I ask everybody this question, you know, what is it we're not getting right? I think the. Two main things for me outside of obviously like the s I A regulations, when you move into the security consultancy side of things, one thing we have to get right is how do you regulate who cla, you know, classifies themselves as a security consultant and the, the qualifications behind that. But I think one of the overriding things we really need to do across the entire industry. Look at the whole mental health or wellbeing picture. Um, I remember doing a review of a shopping center and the amount of officers as part of the security team that had witnessed countless suicides. and they had no support. They weren't even debriefed, they weren't even sat down with a cup tea and say, how are you feeling? They were just redeployed to another part of the shop and center. Wipe the blood off your boots and don't let anybody in. I, I really think the key focus that we have to do is the mental health part, um, or as I said at the right at the start. So maybe if we rephrase it and call it wellbeing and really focus on our teams. Um, I remember there being a step change when I was working in London when, you know, if the, if the terrorist threat increas. the automatic response was, you know, we get more security officers. Um, and that mindset has gotta change, right? If there is a threat where possibly, you know, a device is gonna function, people will die. Why will you bring more people into it? You know, why are we not removing those people but also looking at the aftercare of them as well? Um, cuz you imagine being at a location when you know that any second something could go, bang, somebody could shoot, that's gonna play on your mind all the. And all we do is send them home. We don't talk about it. They come back in the next day, the next week, and we, we carry on. Life is normal for me. The, the whole mental health picture is massive. So, um, why, why do you think as an industry, um, that we are sort of scared to, to talk about mental health issues? I, I, I really think it's, it's a matching thing. The security industry has always been a macho environment and people will not talk about, um, any weaknesses when, if, if you've, many of the listeners may do this. So when you join the Army, you are told, point blank. Do not say sorry. It's a sign of weakness. Well, actually, if you get something wrong when you say, sorry, it's just being polite. You're just saying, sorry, I got that wrong. So to talk about how you are feeling, um, you know, if you can't say sorry, how can you say I'm not feeling great cuz of this, whatever. Um, and it's a macho industry and it's gotta change because it's, yes, it can be a hard industry, but the macho bit has gotta go this stereotypical, you know, security bit has gotta go. We need to look after our security teams. Cause if we can't, who else will there be to look after the other? Thing is women are being told Lee, you know, to not say sorry, because it's being perceived as, you know, submissive, uh, and less empowering behavior. But I've always believed that there is a huge power in saying sorry in the right way. you know, and I think sometimes people, especially when you're in a leadership role or you're in a, in a role of influence, people need to hear that word, sorry, a lot more. I think saying it in the right and sincere way humanizes people. What's your view on that? You know? Absolutely. Um, the word sorry is so big. It is an absolutely massive word. Alright. Okay. It's only got what we got now, five letters in it, but it's. and to admit that either A, you've got something wrong, or even as an organization when you turn around and say, you know what, sorry, we've got our response wrong to you guys. It's, you can almost imagine a, a piece of work that was actually called, sorry, because it needs to be discussed more. I mean, this big weakness thing around that word, it is immense. Um, but the, the key thing for me as well on that same right when people say, And if it's sincere, it's right. It's done and it's dusted. It's cut off. It's not brought up again, it's not, you know, revisited every time you have your annual review, whatever happens and it's done. It is done is done's put to bed end of, but I think the whole sorry, bit could actually be a good piece of work. you touched earlier about the time in in Bosnia when you was held hostage for 36 days. have you used part of that experience in a, in a positive way? And the impact that had on your mental health. So have you used that experience in a positive way or even use that experience? Reach out to other people within the industry that you may have noticed may, you know, be suffering similar sort of things, especially around ptst. Yeah, no, no, a absolutely and one, one of the key things I think was the, cuz there was only eight of us, um, the rest of the British army in the UN had literally left the, the area that were in. So there was eight of us just left there on, and it was that team support. Checking in with each other. we had SOPs in place so we knew if, if this sort of thing happened, we knew. There would be food supplies or an intelligence meet at some point if we could get away and get to it, meet the rv. Um, but the big thing for me was the, it was that camaraderie between the team. And that's where, you know, we all opened up, we all talked about stuff, how we were feeling, and there's no different to whether you were on a mountaintop called o p 14 in Bosnia, or you're working for a shopping center in the. Do you sit down as a team and talk through everything that's happened, maybe in that shift or at the end of the week? and that's one of the key things when we say, you know, we don't talk about things. and I think, again, going back to not feeling. Safe in saying either a, I got something wrong or something happened and I, I was actually affected by it. and, and that's something I think we need to do. That's my biggest thing out of that is we sat there as a team, we lived it as a team. When I got married, my team were there. cuz we, we were, you know, we were close together and that's the way it should be is security professionals. our sponsor of this podcast, Tia digital solution limited. Offer a wide range of cross-industry it products, applications, and services to meet the global techniques of their customers. If you need CCTV systems, cameras, port switches for sock rooms, PKI, keys to name, but a few Tia digital solution is a solid and reliable vendor partner for you. Market leading brands include ubiquity networks. Tell Tanika Aruba, HPE Jabora Microtech and many more. Contact them at www.theinsightssolutions.com. Lee, not everybody has the privilege of talking to somebody who's been taken hostage. and I think we all know of a very few, hostage taking situations that have resulted in people coming back and resuming what it can be a normal life like Terry. Wait, for example. So look is it really what it's like in the movies? tell us what it's like from your personal experience. It was a, it was a bizarre circumstance. Bosnia was a very complicated, area to work in. there was obviously so much respond conflict as in, not as in the conflict that was happening, but the conflict between what they thought the support was that was required. and I mean, it literally went wrong within weeks of us turning up. When we were told that the, and it was the Muslim forces that were gonna take us hostage. So you got the Bostonian army, uh, or the, sorry, the Serbian Army and the, the Muslim Army. And because the Serbs had taken all the other ops, the, the Muslim army wanted ours. Um, and we didn't know what was gonna happen. So anyone who was married literally took off wedding rings. We were burying stuff underground, just so that, you know, they, they, they couldn't find things on us for interrogation or whatever. Um, it was a bizarre event. I remember being woken up saying, don't. but we're surrounded and there were literally like 40 troops around us. There was eight of us. We, we eventually managed to get contacted via radio with the UN and the Royal Walsh. Um, and we were told, you know, don't engage in a firefight. But it was a, a bizarre experience. We were told if we'd stayed in the op, we're okay. If we left, then that was, it came over. Um, you know, your weapons were taken off. You, it was a day by day. You didn't know what was gonna. We literally had to live by their decree., and the, you know, the, the, I'm trying to think of the right word now. So the, the feeling I had, I was the first, well, sorry, there was two of us released, first of all myself, um, another guy called Andy. And the feeling that we had that actually what we're coming out of this, now we are, you know, we are being set. and we were, we were, we had to walk out to a point where we were picked up by a UN Land Rover and driven down the mountain. During that journey, we dropped into a dry, tank track. So obviously during the winter months, heavier vehicle left, you know, obviously,, tracks along the road. As we dropped into that track, we both bounced up, hit our heads on the ceiling of the the Land Rover, and unfortunately Andy broke his. Lost everything from the neck down and then lost consciousness. So we had to stop the vehicle. We had to resuscitate Andy and then obviously look at him medically. so I'd had 36 days of. Quite a traumatic experience. And then seeing one of my friends go through this when I got back to camp, it wasn't a case of write that sit down, debrief even. No, give me a cup of tea, let's have a chat. It was, we, we short on the patrol. Um, can you come out and, and join us on there? There was no aftercare. It was like from one extreme to the other. Um, and I really hope the army has moved on and we never see those sort of things again. So one of my biggest worries is that, because the security industry is quite, bit more reactive than proactive. Um, and my big worry is that if something major did happen, are we, you know, are we waiting for the next big thing to happen where, a security officer is so badly affected by something that he's witnessed, that the security industry as a whole, within. Stand up and start to look at the, the wider of issue. do you have a, a similar sort of feeling? Yeah, I do. And, and again, that's where I go back to, I think. Right? So we should we look at a different approach? Should we look at this, the wellbeing check, whether it's done on a quarterly basis, six months, 12 months. But just check in with our teams because. The security officers see so many things, or as we would say, another bit on the under health and safety, so many close encounters or, you know, especially when it comes to, um, you know, any sort of potential injuries and, and nobody talks about it, you know, and, and I think we really need to look at probably even like I say, quarterly reviews, just to have that check in. I. I think more than anything to reinforce in people's mindset, it's okay. You know, every quarter come in, we'll have the health check and we'll move on from there. And I think that's, that's one of the key things that the industry could do. I'm shocked, Lee. I really am, because you know, I just don't understand how you can come out of such a harrowing situation where you don't even know if your life is gonna be safe, and then to experience the trauma you did as you were making your way out of that situation for them to then not even acknowledge the fact that you might need to take a little time out. um, it seems utterly barbaric, doesn't it really? When you look back and you think, but you know, you, you survived that, but you shouldn't have had to have done to a degree. So look what can, sorry. What should they be doing better? I mean, I know that we are encouraging, um, businesses to take a leadership role in relation to mental health. So for example, it's a bit of a loaded question. I've recently made a big thing about doing the Mental Health First Aid course, and the government are just giving the courses out for free and you've gotta really focus on it. It's a proper certificate, it's a proper level two qualification. Um, but if all businesses took a very healthy approach to having a. As many first aid for mental health as the are or for general, uh, first aid, then surely we're advocating an all round better, better approach. But how do you think the Army should be doing it? Or do you think they're just quite incapable of doing the soft approach? No, I think bearing in mind what we've had recently with Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army have come on leaps and. They really have. if they hadn't, we'd be able be see more, more and more incidents. I mean, when I, when I, we actually finished the tour, um, I remember getting back to, um, the airport and it literally was right, you're getting on the plane and you going home. So we had r our, our bag of Cs because I, I didn't have no rrn r he's obviously being taking hostage. I didn't get a chance to have any time off. When I deployed to Bosnia, I was a size 34 waste. I went home as a size 20. And I remember having to grip my jeans because they didn't fit anymore. Um, and it literally was, put your bullets in that box, put your, um, your grenades in that one, put the morphine in that one. Get on the plane. And that was it. That, that was the debrief. It was decamp. Put your stuff in there and get on the plane. The flips. I obviously, when I got. My girlfriend at the time took one look at me and went, oh, hello. Cause obviously now I was obviously a little bit fitter, a little bit lighter, but obviously mentally probably not there. but there was nothing, there was nothing put in place. And I know now the a the Army do more now, obviously bearing in mind with, as I said, with, with a Iraq, Afghanistan. But I think that needs to be transferred into the security industry and, and that's where we need to have those regular check-ins to make sure that everybody is okay. and again, I think probably the main savings so much. Should we move away from this, maybe the terminology mental health and move into the wellbeing and a focus on how can we make sure people stay okay? And if there's an issue, how we can address it and move forward. I really hope what I went through is a thing of the past, something to learn from and hopefully we can move. So for those out there that want to talk, about their own, mental health struggles or, or even to approach people around them that they might notice, could potentially be having, some, some mental health issues or, or to notice that their wellbeing is not as it should be, what advice would you give them to Eva? from a personal point of view to talk to someone about their own, about their own issues or to talk to other people around them. So their own team members. It's, you know, it is a really good question cause it's, everyone is different. Everyone is individual. And I think even as security operators, we all need to be. Mindful of, you know, not everybody can deal with every situation in the same way. So they always make sure that people will be ready to open up and say, it's not a sign of weakness. If there's been an issue, let's talk about it. But I think we need to, you know, as an industry, have that ability to open. you can probably pop to Tescos and do a mystery shopper exercise, and staff will start talking about how they feel or, you know, I don't like restocking the shelves. I don't like doing all the tills. I don't like doing this. But we don't do that as an industry within the security world. We don't sit down afterwards and really debrief people, or encourage'em to say, right. If somebody's not right, tell us. Cause people think now if it's not right and they, well, they don't think they've done it right, will I be asked to come back tomorrow? And I think that's what we really need to do. We really need to open up the world of wellbeing and saying, you know, we work in that industry where everyone needs to be on top form. And if you're not on top form, then that's help you to get you back there. Lee, there are other supermarkets available. Um, we uh, Lee, it's, we there, there, it's usually around this sort of time actually that we sort of give a nod of people in the industry that are standing out for us. Uh, you mentioned Phil earlier. We have spoken to Phil not about. But we are actually going to be, interviewing him as our next guest for the Security Circle podcast. So please feel free to give a shout out to him, if you feel so inclined. And then I'm gonna go to Ash to find out who his person at the day is. Phil is what I would call an industry giant. He really is. he's a friend of so many people that I know but to me, again, personally, he was the guy who, who said, mate, you know, I can see the issues. I can see what's going on. and as I said, Phil saved my life. He, he literally, up until the point, and I'll be, I'll come be completely frank and open. Up until the point we met at the security expo, say met, cause we'd already knew each other, but we went to the security expo just before, COVID. And over three occasions I had put my head in a noose and I, I just, I just wanted to say goodbye. Phil spotted it, put his arm around me and said, mate, you need help. And he kept checking in. and. I would say he's, he's an industry leader. He's inspirational, he's had a great army career. He's doing a great career now with his media side of things. And if you can get him talking on this, fantastic. Thank you, Lee. I mean, look, that's a really powerful statement, Ash. How can you follow. Yeah. So first of all, Lee, thank you. I think, this podcast just talk about this issue is great, and I think for anyone out there listening, if it gets other people talking, that's, that's even better as well. So it's, yeah, a big sub subject I think industry needs to tackle. So if we can get me more people talking, I think it'd be, yeah, it'd be brilliant. so my, my nod this week goes to a guy that I've been working with for the past 18 months. His name's Darren Marsh. Um, Fantastic guy, um, very young start, um, start off in the industry not too long ago. Um, but I, I think this guy, he's, um, he's, he's got a big future ahead of him in the security industry. So, yeah. Just wanna give my nod to, to Darren Marsh this week. And, thank you Ash. My Nord is going to Jane King, who is not only a fellow Ifpo advisory board member along with Ashai. She's also the chairperson of the UK Security Commonwealth and an overall amazing woman. she's done a lot of work highlighting, for example, the transgender Day of Remembrance about a month ago. She supports the Women's Security Society. And Security Minds matter, which is an ifpo, area, where, uh, the focus has been particularly around World Suicide Prevention Day earlier on this year. so yet to Jane, uh, top woman really and Trailblazer Lee, what can I say? As we finish up now, cuz we have just about run outta time, you've got one sentence to say. What do you want to be respected for? Well, what question? Um, I, I would like to say for put my head above the parapet and saying, security industry, we have an issue. We have to fix it, and I'm more than happy to help. Awesome, Lee. From Ash and I, it's been an utter pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your very personal story with us, Lee Dridge. Thank you. Thanks E