EP 006 Philip Ingram discusses Security Around the World in 30 minutes.

We were thrilled to have Philips time to get an understanding of the global security issues around the world, from the Ukraine, to Eco terrorism, Data terrorism, Hacking serotonin and Nuclear escalation. We could have talked to him for hours.

Philip Ingram MBE BSc MA is a journalist specialising in the cyber, security, counter terror, defence and intelligence arenas. His knowledge is built from a long and senior military career as an intelligence and security officer, a strategic planner (who has helped take over a couple of countries or regions) with business experience at board level in the steel industry and now media industry; he maintains a close interest in global events.  Philip runs his own media company, Grey Hare Media, and specialises in delivering informed content.

A keynote speaker on Cyber, the power of information, the threat landscape, leadership and mental health and more, Philip is frequently asked to comment for Sky News, BBC TV News and Radio, ITV news and other global networks including, CBC, ABC, CNN, Euro News, Turkish TRT World TV, RTE radio and has given content in the past to BBC Mundo and Japanese NTV.   He has presented INTERPOL World TV in Singapore in 2015, 2017 and again in 2019. 

Philip writes for a lot of Security trade press and is a frequent commentator in Forbes and is often quoted in the Times, Telegraph, Daily Mail, Sunday People, Sunday Mirror and many other papers in the UK and across the globe.  He has also had by lines in many. He has co-authored a chapter in the book Blockchain Impact, written a chapter in a book on Afghanistan and just published a novel called The Committee.

Philip gives a little back as a mentor with an Institute of Directors (IoD) organised scheme helping business students at a local university in their 3rd year and as a member of the not-for-profit Global Terrorism Information Network (TINYg) board as well as the West Midlands Cross Sector Safety and Security Communications (CSSC) board.  He is a member of the IoD, RUSI, and is member of the National Union of Journalists. 

Security Circle ⭕️  is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

0:12

and, hello, welcome back to the Ifpo Production of Security Circle Podcast. Joining Ash and I today is the most, uh, unable if I can say it. Unable, uh, legendary Philip Ingram. Hi. Hi. Good to be on. Thank you for having me. And Ash, how are you today? Very good, thank you. And yeah, Philip, thanks. It's actually a pleasure to have you. Well, listen, I know that we've, uh, we've already been kind of knee deep in huge conversation. Never a dull moment with Philip. In fact, Philip, I'm just gonna repeat what I said to you earlier when I did meet you at the A s I s uh, spring conference, which is always a good bash, uh, for anyone who hasn't attended, uh, especially if Philip's chatting away. Uh, it's, it's a bit like a daunting, sobering moment when you come out and you realize, you know, just how real things are and how real things can get. And I likened it, didn't I? Going to the dentist and realizing that you need a root canal of the job has, has anyone, Phil, ever likened your speeches to a root canal? I don't, I don't think, I think that's the first of it, been liken to a root canal, but yeah, I have been asked before not to scare the audience as much as I did uh, in, in, in a pre, in a previous talk, but it's, I, I just try to bring reality in, get, get people, you know, understanding what, what's actually going on in the world out there, because unfortunately it's a big bad place in many. I think it, it makes it all the more memorable and real what you have to say. So, Phil, look, 2023. It's, whenever we get to a new year that the thing that we always want to ask, incredibly professional, security trailblazers like yourself, we want to say, you know, what's in store, a very broad open. Well, yeah, it's, it's gonna be, a fascinating year. the one thing that will surprise us most is the one thing that we don't know about and we can't predict because you, you look back virtually every year and there's something that we haven't predicted has come and, caught us unawares and had the greatest effects. You know, 2022, uh, that was Russia rein invading Ukraine again. And the impact of that, we. Continue to feel through this year. so I'd say you from a, a wider perspective, it's the continuing impact of Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine. and, uh, how that continues to play out through this year. Not just inside Ukraine itself, but from a global perspective. And we're all suffering the hikes and energy prices and we've seen the suffering that's going on in the, the third world through. The the control of grain and cooking oil and all the rest of it. And, and how important Ukraine is in the supply of that. And that's having a global impact. And that global impact is causing destabilization in, you know, south America, in Africa, in Southeast Asia and, and elsewhere. And that destabilization is something that is gonna impact all of us. The secondary I think that would be remiss of me not to mention is cyber and the continuing look at cyber, but I think. we have to start thinking of cyber in a slightly different way, and I'll might talk about that later. And then the third thing that is always there and will continue to occupy us from a security perspective, uh, is, is terrorism. Uh, and there's, there's a, a lot of assets being, uh, and a lot of changes going on, certainly in the uk on the UK's approach to dealing with terrorism. With the new. Protect duty that's coming in the revamp of the prevent duty that's happening as an overall revamp of, of the contest program. But terrorism itself is morphing and it always morphs. When I grew up, there was Irish terrorism, then it's morphed into is a mis terrorism. Now we're seeing increased right wing terrorism, and then we're probably getting into the game of Ecoterrorism. And you know how that's going to morph. I, I don't know, but we'll find out this year. So Phil, with the upcoming elections in the US and the uk and with this war in Ukraine is there a fear that because the war isn't going as planned as Putin would've liked it, would there be a change in focus towards the standards, sort of boots on the grounds attached to a more sort of cyber. Well, that's a, that's a very good question. It's, it's absolutely fascinating. Yes. I, I describe it whenever I, I give my commentary on Sky News and bits and pieces. I, uh, describe it as day 300 and whatever, and we're, we're, we're coming up to the, the, the first year, but Day 300 and whatever of, of Vladimir Putin's 10 day war, because he had only planned it to be about 10 days to two weeks long. And. I don't think we're gonna see an increase in cyber because cyber's been going on a, around it all of the time, and, uh, both in targeting Ukrainian infrastructure through cyber, but also, uh, out around the periphery. But it, it's something that Ukraine has been well prepared for because it, uh, Was first invaded in 2014. Cyber's been something that Russia's been using against Ukraine and elsewhere since then, a and against the rest of the world. But in reality, it started, uh, much earlier than that back in 2003 whenever Vladimir Putin started his information operation. A and, and this is where I think the biggest influence that we'll see in the run up the elections will be in the information sphere where Russia tries to get control of how. People are thinking, reacting, and how voting may go in different elections to cause maximum disruption. Part of that will be as we saw with the last US presidential election, uh, and the hacking of Hillary Clinton's uh, email server and other bits and pieces will be a cyber element. To get data to compromise that data to undermine certain people. The same thing will happen in the uk. And the other bit of it is getting as much data as possible, uh, and putting it getting it as a, a big data subject and putting it into artificial intelligence so that people can understand where swing filters are or people are sitting in the fence are, and try and influence them one way or the other. To, to, uh, get. Political support or, or politicians in who would be more supportive of Russia or, or probably better, less supportive of what's going on in Ukraine at the moment and would want to withdraw some of the, the, the military and economic support that's going in. So yes, it, it will play a huge role as we come up to the elections. I, uh, you know, you touched on quite a few things there. First of all, you talked about Ecoterrorism. You've got the left ringing and the white right wing terrorism, which believe it or not I think that their idealism is very similar. Uh, I don't think they know that, which is a particularly good thing. A hundred percent. But then, you know, I, I think data terrorism, Is is gonna be, you know, the overall encompassing, all of the data's now becoming a commodity, a very exchangeable commodity. And I've just got this feeling that for people who don't work within tech, or within the cybersecurity or security worlds. And, and there's a lot of them that they don't, they're just almost becoming apathetic to the fact that, oh, it's another data breach. Oh, it's another this, it's another that. Yeah. You know what happens if everybody starts to become apathetic to their personal data? Phil? Well, you, you've hit another nail on, on the head really squarely. Data is the new gold. No, that's not my phrase. Or the new oil. That's a, that's a phrase from a good friend of mine Dean Armstrong kc. And he's the head of chambers of a set of barristers chambers called the 36 Group. And they specialize in cybersecurity, data security and all the rest of it. And he's, he's written the international legal textbook. On data security and everything else. And, and you know, he's firmly of the belief that data is that level of commodity, uh, that will be exploited by nation states exploited by criminal gangs. I don't think terrorists will begin to exploit it in the same way that criminals can, because it's much better to make money out of than to try and, uh, you know, carry out some form of terrorist attack. But if they can do that to expose people. They will. And I don't think people understand the level of their digital exposure, and I think that's part of the problem. W everyone's become very blase about what they will do online, uh, and what, uh, they will do in real life. We know when to close the curtains. In the bedroom in our house, we know when to lock the front door before we get up to, uh, various bits and pieces. But people seem to do things that they only do behind closed doors with the curtains closed in their house and post that up on social media or post it in some somewhere else. Inviting people to access data about them as individuals that other people really don't need to know and don't need to be aware of, and they don't realize how much is. Exists out there from a big data perspective and can be brought together to build up a very detailed picture of how you think, how you work, how you understand and those around you and how they think work and understand. And influence can then come in by utilizing those in your inner circle and, and you tweaking the way they think and potentially the way they interact with you or you back out to them. And. I, I just don't think people have got a, I've got an idea about it at all. I do think big data, uh, and a, a lot of the big tech companies need to take more responsibility for looking after individuals personal data. So how dangerous is that data in the wrong hands? And also how can we better protect ourselves as individuals or as organizations? It's, it's massively dangerous because it's being exploited for, for everything we've seen through, through 2022. Uh, and it'll continue through 2023. We've seen a huge increase in sophisticated scams coming in by text, by Email, you know, how, how, how many people have had your, your D P D post office, whatever parcel has failed to be delivered. Click here and, uh, reschedule a delivery date and it's come through on, on, on something that looks good or you know, you're due a government tax rebate and it comes through on a, what, what sounds or looks very credible. You click here to, to get, to get your tax rebate. Those sorts of things coming through are getting more and more sophisticated and people fall for them. and you know, it, it's costing us uh, huge amounts of money, but it's also costing us access to, uh, other, other different types of data. And again, as, as more and more, and this is, you know, from a, from a corporate per perspective, as more and more work is being done on mobile devices, mobile devices don't have the same sort of security that the the, the large networks have in our corporate headquarters. And therefore, You know, it's not just personal data that could be leaking and being taken away. It's, uh, corporate data a and that you just have to go onto the dark web. But you can see the markets that there are on the dark web for, for data, they're huge. And, and it's being exploited. And whe if it's not costing you money directly, it's costing you money indirectly because the prices of things, the prices of credit, the prices of uh, other things are having to go up to pay for you the damage that's been caused by a lot of the breach. Few years ago, Phil I was working for a business that had lots of young, uh, postgraduates working for it. And as a, in a security role in the canteen, we quite often had to go around and hand people back their ca cards, their debit cards, because they'd left them on a table or they were exposed and some could easily swipe it. And the culture for this generation was, well, you know, It doesn't really affect me if my car gets, goes missing because the bank will just reimburse me everything that Yeah. Is, is used. And so touching on what you've just said, there is a degree of, well, I'm not directly going to pay for it, so I don't. There's a less of an onus, I guess, to, to be more committed isn't there to, to putting things right. So there's a wider message. But I noticed also when I use other social media platforms, and Twitter's really annoying me at the moment because it's only sending me things that I, it's learned that I am interested in. Yeah. And which means if something's triggered me or, you know, I feel like I need to stand up for the trans community. I tend to get lots of stuff that comes my way. Very antagonistic and, and, and very provocative and, and then it becomes very negative and, and sort of perpetuating negative. So if we already know we're susceptible to how large social media giants are mil manipulating information coming our way, what can we do about it and how can we advocate for better health when people are clearly following misinformation? It's a huge issue, isn't it? It, it is. And I think the only way to deal with it is education, education, education. People need to be educated and not, and not from a fair perspective, but from a, an understanding the reality of, of what's out their perspective. You know, a, a couple of years ago and I think it's SMA website, I, I wrote a blog called and what what that did was it looked at two bits of. One coming from, uh, a, a guy that specializes in, uh, manipulative marketing. So you know, how, how you run your marketing campaigns to manipulate customers into thinking you're the best thing in size bread. And then, uh, another one, uh, another bit of research, which was done by a, a PhD, uh, uh, Cambridge University, PhD academic that looked at big data and AI and how you could understand people. And the, the two of them got together. And realized that by analyzing the big data, And applying manipulative marketing techniques, you could change the way people thought about things by targeting messages at them. A and this is what you, you are finding through some of the social media platforms Facebook's been doing it for, for a long time now. Twitter's now just starting to do it because, uh, they can exploit it and they know that they can make a lot of money outta doing that sort of thing through their, their retargeted advertising. But it's when that retargeted advertising turns into. Retargeted manipulation because they're trying to change the way you think. That's when it gets worrying. And there's an awful lot of nation states that are focusing on, uh, trying to do that. And I think the worrying thing as we go through 2023, I think the worrying thing is that Blas that you talked about in the, uh, worldwide web that, that we've got at the moment, translate that into web three. And the metaverse, and I know through the end of 22 and now it's, you know, it's dead because crypto's tanking and there's not many people are getting involved in it and all the rest of it. But it is, it is a bit of technology that is coming if it comes an our lifetime. Anything useful? I'll, I'll be surprised, but it is coming. But we need to start preparing for the potential threats that there are that are gonna translate from the virtual world to the real world. And we need to start thinking about that now and, and getting all of our education in place, getting our, uh, processes in place, looking at what tech we need to do uh, to try and see what threats there could be to our businesses because it takes, we have to be planning 10, 15 years out on these sorts of things, so we get it right and we're not becoming reactive, we're becoming proactive in dealing with it. Uh, I know there are countries around the world that are proactively looking at, uh, how they can exploit it already. So we've discussed how data and, and fallen into wrong hands. How dangerous that can be. But what about normal sort of conventional Rey, so with the West and its support to Ukraine and giving military aid, uh, to the Ukrainian forces, what's the risk and what's the danger if, if that falls into the wrong hands? Yeah, it's interesting. There's always been the debate as to why, you know, we haven't given more sophisticated weapons to Ukraine early on, uh, and everything else. And it's, you know, the, the Reaper drones some of our uh, different aircraft and all the rest of it. And, and part of the rationale behind not giving it to them, uh, is. The West is scared that if that does fall into Russia's hands, eight, we'll then be able to exploit it and look for loopholes in it, uh, and everything else, and sell it off to, uh, other hostile nation states around the world for them to exploit. That's part of it, but the other part of it is getting more sophisticated equipment integrated into what Ukraine. Properly utilize whilst they're fighting a conflict. You know, they're doing one of the hardest things for any nation state to do. They're fighting a high intensity conflict. With the equipment that they've got that was inadequate to defend, uh, against the threat that was coming in, they have managed to defend against that threat. And what they're doing is they're ree equipping, re-arming, retraining, training new troops to come in and utilizing new equipment and bringing. So many different platforms together that bring with them logistic problems as well as you know, how, how you integrate them and work'em together. It's the sort of thing that would take the British military four or five years to integrate two or three platforms together and work out how to use them tactically. The Ukrainians are doing it in a matter of weeks and then sending them out to the frontline to fight. They're giving us a masterclass in how to Plan and execute high intensity warfare in a modern era whilst ree equipping, re-arming and mobilizing your population. And I think we'll be, you know, the west will be learning military lessons from what Ukraine is managing to do for many years to come. Now Ukraine is doing it because, It's been getting a lot of help from the West for a long time. A long time before th this invasion, you know, I remember the first Ukrainian officer coming to the British, uh, advanced Command and Staff College. Uh, and that was 1996 because he was in my syndicate and he, you know, he sat beside me and thought I was put there to try and turn him and, and get him to, uh, uh, work for British Intelligence. Yeah, we've been equipping them. We've been, we've been working with Ukraine for, for many, many years, and I think. Part of it is trying to protect the secrets, and that'll restrict some pieces of equipment. Part of it is making sure that Ukraine can get stuff that they can use with all the other equipment that they've got, and use it quickly and easily and, and, and effectively. And, and part of it is, you know, making sure that you know, the west can retain sufficient capability. So that in the unlikely event, and I say it is an unlikely event, that the conflict spills out beyond Ukraine's borders, that the west still is the wherewithal to be able to deal with it. our sponsor of this podcast, Tia digital solution limited. Offer a wide range of cross-industry it products, applications, and services to meet the global techniques of their customers. If you need CCTV systems, cameras, port switches for sock rooms, PKI, keys to name, but a few Tia digital solution is a solid and reliable vendor partner for you. Market leading brands include ubiquity networks. Tell Tanika Aruba, HPE Jabora Microtech and many more. Contact them at www.theinsightssolutions.com. Bill Zelensky has certainly become probably one of the most famous, uh, politicians around the world because of the way he's handled, uh, the invasion of his country, and he has no doubt demonstrated, incredibly sophisticated and, and very natural ways of communicating his message. And, you know, he was a comedian. He, he worked in television beforehand and I know when I watched a program recently with, with John Bishop sir Mcklellan, who was on the show with him, basically said, look, there's a good platform now for comedians to go into politics and do really, really well, but that's obviously just hyperbole. We know that Zelensky has won the favor of the, of the world basically because of his behaviors and attitudes and values. Do you think that this is pivotal to how he can support the Ukraine in, in hopefully stopping this horrible war? Oh, hugely pivotal. You know, his leadership, uh, again, he's, he said his military are setting a masterclass in military tactics and planning. He's setting a masterclass in global leadership, uh, under the most difficult of circumstances. And, and, and it, it, it is interesting. He wasn't a professional politician, but he was a professional communicator. So a comedian is a communicator an actor is a communicator. And, and you have to be able to read your audience and get the message a across. And that's the sign of professional actor. Yeah. We, we look at Here's what I'm gonna be cited. Controversial. You, you look at probably one of the most underrated presidents of the United States and what he achieved was Ronald Reagan. And, and what Ronald Reagan achieved getting into the start treaties in nuclear disarmament across the globe was phenomenal. And he managed to pull together, you know, that because he was approaching things not as a professional politician, but, but you know, as he, he had that communicator's background in it now, you know, it was under, you know, Reagan got some things wrong. He, he took us closer to nuclear conflict than anyone else in uh, in the early eighties. But uh, that, that's, that's another story for another time. You, you a really interesting article with recently in the City Security magazine, and you, you, you mentioned Cyber attacks as well. So how close are we, cuz you, you mentioned once you step onto that ladder, that ladder can be kind of very quickly. So is, is that something that the UK and, and the western world is, is fearful of? Yeah. The, the nuclear escalation ladder, I think, I think you're talking about there. And. Yeah, it's Russia is a nuclear par, uh, and we have to recognize that Russia is, has been threatening nuclear activity, whether it be, uh, a, a dirty bomb, a radiological activity with some of the nuclear power stations or the nuclear west sites in Ukraine, uh, and using conventional explosives to uh, cause a, a radiological, uh, uh, Ecological disaster or whether the potential use of a tactical nuclear device I think the potential for that remains its likelihood is highly unlikely, but You know, if Russia, Russia's doctrine says that if it's got you know, if it sees an existential threat against Russia itself, then there are a number of pathways for nuclear exchange to happen. That's why we're not imposing a no-fly zone using native aircraft or native troops are not on the ground and fighting cuz. That would instantly take the conflict from, it's, it's very tight geographic boundaries inside Ukraine out to a European or, or a global set of boundaries. And Russia's only reaction could therefore be nuclear. So we'd be calling their nuclear bluff and that's not a place we really want to go to. I could, I could see some. Conditions. You know, you could almost say that Putin has put his foot on the nuclear escalation ladder with the threats that he's put out, but then taken his foot off it. But once you're on that ladder, you, you can go up it really quickly. Uh, and you know, his next step could be the use of what is euphemistically called a tactical nuclear device. There's no such thing as a tactical nuclear. Weapon, but he'd be using it for strategic effect. You know, put it somewhere, uh, explode it, uh, in a way that causes no casualties or, or few casualties. Uh, a small yield would be, you know, about one square kilometer of instant destruction, but 10 square kilometers of fallout and another rest around an immediate fallout. But use that, say negotiate and, and give me a settlement, or the next one's gonna be in Kyiv or lav or somewhere else. If he did that, he would lose the global tacit support that he's got from or, or it is not tacit support, uh, of, of countries around the world that are, haven't come out and openly condemn, condemned him. And there's a, there's a number of them that, that haven't done that he, he'd lose, he'd. You any support that he, he'd hope of getting from them instantly if he did that. So that's why I say it's unlikely because it would be, uh, his, his last chance, solu Saloon. The reaction from the West, we would have to get more involved. But from a conventional perspective, the trouble is he's got two feet then firmly on the nuclear escalation ladder. And if we had to get more involved, which we would do He could jump up that ladder very quickly indeed. And we're trying to second guess someone who, uh, may not be thinking rationally at that stage. Well, most people that know me know that I see things in pictures and you know, when you look at Putin and you look at the Ukraine and you look at the nuclear escalation, you can't help but think, you know, like the, there's a parody here of, you know, some, some people around a swimming pool and one group has been threatened that if they step over the boundary, they're gonna be drowned in the pool. But at the moment, whilst that threat of being drowned in the pool exists, all they're doing at the moment is using very small, childish water. Pistols at each other, and it just seems that how can that nuclear threat be so existentially real? And yet what's happening at the moment seems to be a very ill planned, ill strategic ill everything strategy to, to try and take over a country. Unless of course we step aside, we look at it from a, a broader perspective and think there's actually something much bigger going on here. There's a bigger test going on. What aren't we being. Ooh, that's, that's an interesting one. I don't think there's anything that we're not being told. Uh, and I think changing your analogy around a little bit, the nuclear threats are the water pistols the, the, the real damage that's going on at the moment. And, and it's, you, you, you don't get it from seeing the pictures on the television news or in the newspapers or reading stories about it or seeing some of the horrific videos that pop up on social media, the horrors that are going on, on the ground and the, the, the, the human. Impact that is going on is phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. And you, you, I, I've, I've been to the battlefields of the First World War and walked along the battles, the battlefields of the Psalm, which are now farmers fields, and you find little piles of bones and little piles of weapons and all the rest of it at the, at the edge of the fields every time they're plowed. And the farmers, the farmers put them there. that's same thing's gonna be happening in certain parts of Ukraine for years to come. As farmers plow the fields, especially around where a lot of the fighting's been going on uh, you know, ear early in the new year around backout, uh, and elsewhere in, in the east, the, the, the, the dead, the horrors that there are, there are, are indescribable. Uh, and what, and, and what's happening. From a, a, a wider political perspective and a diplomatic perspective. It's very real there. There's a, there's a lot of very real work going on to try and understand what Putin's real thinking is. He got his planning badly wrong in the, in the first place. He thought that he'd have taken over Ukraine within a number of days. He thought the Ukrainians would've welcomed him with open arms. He didn't expect the reaction and didn't expect his military to fail miserably because he'd been briefed that they were actually quite good when in reality they weren't. Uh, and, and he's trying to recover from that, and he's trying to recover and save some form of face. I, I, I don't see any option for that at the moment. And we're seeing an increasing number of uh, in fighting going on amongst his inner circles. And you, you can count that in fighting by the number of oligarchs. And other senior people that either choose to have heart, heart attack next Sunday or, uh, take up window cleaning even though they're multi-billionaires and, and forget that the window's open uh, or fall down the stairs. You, you shouldn't climb the stairs to get to a window. Uh, especially if you've been promised a heart attack next weekend, uh, if you're a Russian oligarch. So do you think Putin is now changing the goalpost? So, he can have something that he can label as, uh, success and again in your city security magazine you spoke about that. But. I think that's still true that he, he's changing those goalposts. Yeah, he's, he's changed goal the goalpost the whole way through, you know, his, his me effort was the capture of Kiev, the toppling of the Ukrainian government. And thi this is 24th of February 22, capture of Kiev toppling the Ukrainian government holding a victory period in, in Kiev, uh, within, within a couple of weeks. And Ukraine aligning itself more to Moscow. He failed miserably in that. He then tried to get in a position where he could threaten from the further from the north and from the east, and realized that he couldn't hold onto what was happening in the North. So had to, uh, reshape himself again. And then reiterated his ma uh, a new effort as capturing the disputed Donbass region that, that big area in the, in the East. Uh, and, you know, he then held the sha. Referenda, uh, which said that, uh, that everyone, uh, voted to become part of uh, Russia, uh, and, and declared them as part of Russia, but he didn't even have, uh, all of the ground. He hadn't captured all of the ground, and he's been pushed back from big chunks of it continuously. And Ukrainians are continuing to do that. So he's having to continually reset what his objectives are. Uh, and that's a difficulty. It's the Ukrainians that, uh, will decide when they will stop and. Putin is gonna be pushed right back into a corner that's affecting his stability at home. And we have to see how that's gonna play out this year. Well, Phil, it's been so enlightening just to hear your take on it, to be honest. But we are running outta time now. At this stage of our Security Circle podcast, we tend to give a nod to somebody in the security industry who maybe is standing out for us to a degree. And because cybersecurity has been very much an underpinning theme for today, my Nord is gonna go out to a super federalistic Cali. The Ali Doche man called JJ Davy, and I dunno if you know JJ Davy, but he is a, an influencer certainly within the cybersecurity world, mentoring young cybersecurity professionals. He publishes, he he does so much behind the scenes and he even, uh, creates a lot of training material and working in the physical security arena. Myself for the last 13 years, I've had a lot of young security officers say to me, you know, how, how. What's it like to sort of cross over and go into cybersecurity? There are a number of great jobs available. It's a very healthy recruitment market, and so for anybody who is, is looking to get an introduction to cybersecurity or really start to take an interest, contact JJ Davy and certainly follow him on LinkedIn. We'll come to Ash in a minute, but Phil, is there anyone in particular that you wanna give a professional nod to? Uh, at the moment? Oh, there's, there's so many people I'd, I'd want to give professional odds to you. The, you know, the, the industry is developing and. Security, security is vital, you know, and it would be remiss of me to pick one particular individual. You know, we've got you know, the, the, the likes of Fegan Murray and what she's achieving with, uh, or has achieved with getting the protect duty uh, help by Nick Aldworth. We've got, Uh, you what so many different companies are, are, are, are doing. We've got what Karen Martin achieved in setting up the National Cybersecurity Center and continuing to dispel the myths around cyber. The, there, there are so many people. So I, I will step back from naming any one individual and just say that, uh, the industry is at an exciting time at the. Very good. Ash, who's your nod for today? So again, my one this week today's, uh, a personal one, uh, goes to Dave Barky. So, and he would absolutely hate me for mentioning his name. So, Dave and I used to work together about six or seven years ago. He was my first manager in corporate security after spending around about 10 years in, in engineering. And he's inspired me and helped me pursue a career in security and. Security risk management, and he, he's always been there if I needed someone to talk to or, or get advice. And I think looking back over the past few weeks and doing his podcast, you know, everything that's come of it and then looking back from where I started in my career, I don't think I would be in this position today if it wasn't for Dave and. His directions and especially here today in a position of asking Philip these tough questions that have given him some this night. So, what, what keeps you awake at Yeah. Oh, what keeps, what keeps me awake at night? Don't get too personal. Well, yes. I, I, I think the thing that keeps me, keeps me awake most at night is, is my, in my realization of the, the lack of understanding that people have of their, the wider digital exposure. I think, I think, I think it's, it's, it's that piece and it's trying to work out how you can bring reality. Into people's understanding, but, but that reality, not based on a pure fear perspective, but based on an education perspective so that people begin to understand it. I think as an industry, we have built on fear for too many years as the, as the driver for doing something rather than understanding. And, and then when it comes to then integrating cybersecurity and physical security solutions into businesses. That, that understanding allows us to do it from a business perspective, not a security perspective. Cause we have to be seen as a bi uh, a business enhancing arm, not a business cost arm. And it's also preventable as well, isn't it? Which is the, this, the, it's the thing that makes us all roll our eyes really well, Phil, I can only say that. I think I'm gonna say this every week, Ash, but I think you've been our best guest so far. Yeah, best, best guest today, And it is what is what Michael McIntyre does. Doesn't mean he goes to towns and he says, oh, my favorite place in the world. So thank you, uh, so much, Phil for joining us today. Much pleasure. We appreciate it. Thanks, Phil.