EP 010 Lucy Grimwade and Seetan Varsani Discuss Male Allyship

Seetan Varsani MSc, BA (hons) – Divisional Director: London, Corps Security UK Ltd 

Seetan is an experienced security professional, he has worked within the security industry for more than nineteen years, holding a number of senior positions.  

He is Divisional Director for Corps Security’s London business.  Seetan uncovers smarter ways of working and contract efficiencies is a key area of expertise for Seetan and within his contract portfolio he works with management teams to evolve security operations and constantly improve what we do.Seetan is supported by experienced managers who report to him along with a delivery, administration and support team that assist. Within his role Seetan oversees key partnerships and relationships across the Division, including active involvement in a group of prestige accounts including Warner Bros Discovery, Canary Wharf Management Ltd, BNP Paribas, Royal Opera House, Somerset House and European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD).With a background in the hospitality industry, Seetan is passionate about customer service and care and has a full understanding of what high quality service should look like. He instils this understanding within his own teams which translates into the service and experience enjoyed by Corps customers.  In 2020 Seetan created the award-winning initiative ‘Corps Together’, he brought together a team of guardians to work with and he is committed to working across all Corps communities to drive change.  Corps vision is to bring each other closer, build stronger bonds and enable everyone to succeed in the future.

Lucy Grimwade (she/her) is a freelance ITSM & Improvement Consultant and ICF Accredited Coach. With over 15 years in corporate, she has worked in global teams as well as developed and implemented ITSM processes across multiple industries. Lucy’s work is dedicated toidentifying and applying improvements and ITSM change across people, process and technology enabling shifts in mindsets and delivering value that empowers people and business success.  

Security Circle ⭕️  is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

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hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. If poe is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, we are dedicated to providing meaningful education and certification for all levels of security personnel and make positive difference to our members' mental health and wellbeing with me today. Are two very special guests, First of all, Lucy Grimmway, Lance IT service management, professional and improvement consultant, coach, speaker, fellow podcaster, and it i l. Service management credited. We also have Steve Tanvas. Now many of you are going to know Steve Tan. He is a divisional director at Call Security but obviously widely known in the UK security circuit. Both of you. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you. Yo. That's okay. Well listen, look, today's subject is male allyship, something that's now emerging very much as a topical discussion certainly in the uk. I'm gonna come to you first, Lucy, cause I think you're the best person to answer this question to get us started. What is male allyship? Yolanda, what a big question to ask me, and there's so many moving parts to male allyship in my opinion that I don't think it's just one definition as a whole. Just from my own personal experience, a male ally is someone who is there, who is rooting for you, supporting you, not mansplaining stuff to you, but taking you on the journey. And I keep calling it sharing a piece of the pie, so we all know that. Women in business and women specifically in tech we do struggle to kind of get to those more senior positions and to achieve the things that we want to achieve because of all of the sexism and racism and everything that goes on. And I say it so fluffy like that, but from my Experience. It's the men who have gone here, let's sit, let's chat. This is how I can help you, but can you educate me? Can you tell me how you are feeling, what that means to you? So they can learn from you as much as you can learn from them. Yeah. That's a fairly good start actually. let's go to U Ctan. Why is it important, do you think for men to participate and become allies in this? It's it's got to be, led equally and I say that word because our industry and I and Lucy, thanks for your insight and I know you come from the sort of tech background and speak from the tech back. Background. But if I can give an insight from the security world or the industries from a security perspective, it's a it's predominantly a middle-aged, white led you know, industry. It's quite similar to banking and finance, and I'm sure that these examples are widespread right across different commerce and sectors. But we have to change that profile. And the only way we can grow and get better is by including. Inviting the best talent from right across the spectrum. And when male allyship if the security industry is led by white males, it can only be that group of individuals that has to open those doors and start asking themselves those questions. So, You know, we're very proud here at Core to being able to do that because very brave individuals have stepped forward and given true life examples of what's happened to them, particularly in our sector. And there's even some examples from Core, which has led to those conversations and now opened up these doors where we, you know, we're proudly ha have representation at board level, at trustee level. From a female perspective, and that's just growing and it's great to see, but then, you know, we need to see more acceleration, cascade it right down through to organizations, to the ground level so that there's that bravery and equity driven right across the, you know, the sectors. What sort of problem ctan are you finding then in general, that you are tackling as a business when it comes to your young women in. It's firstly, it's a difficult industry to attract talent from the female. representation and that's because it's, there's lots of things that I could start sharing and probably take up the entire podcast on telling you what I think that the issues are. But it's not an industry that attracts it. There's the name security. Firstly, it's worded security. Should it be worded safety so that it has a more rounded, welcoming factor to the female community. In thinking, actually, I'm there to protect people and self protection, safety and wellbeing. Put, you know, softening it so that it has that attraction. Do our hours. Frankly match the needs of the female community, be it through childcare and various other things. And don't get me wrong ma, male communities go through childcare issues, just as, you know, just share the load in many ways. But we have to make it far more welcoming. we have to look at how we adjust our language our descriptions, our way that we welcome females into it. Uniform. Do we, do, we uniform our female officers in the or operatives in the same way as we do our males? You know, and these even goes to those little details. Is what I think. But plus the industry is challenged. You know, we are licensed by an SIA authority, which you'll know of Yolanda. Only nine, eight to 9% of license holders across the UK are female. So we are swimming in a pond, which, which has a very small representation from females, but then that can only be improved by the elements that I've just mentioned or partly mentioned j just now, if that makes sense. Yeah, and it's interesting that you mentioned uniform because I've been in several uniformed roles, including the police, and they don't even, I don't even think police women look great in uniform, you know? Unless you are a certain shape. or if you have a little more shape. So I should say it just, it's bulky, it's clunky. It's not really very easy to look nice or even feel great. And it was the same for me in the security industry as well. And there isn't really don't you find c t A, that there isn't really a need to have such rigid uniform. There could be a little more flat. Really in it, I think. I think how we consult now with our clients and get the buy-in from them as a social enterprise core are quite proud to be able to sit down and have these conversations with clients and change the landscape, change the horizon. Why does it have to be stuffed? We've got front of house operatives. Do they need to be? All square and smart and gleaming, can it be a little bit more relaxed? So that's a more welcoming environment. Absolutely. We're, we are seeing more and more now our client base engage with us on making such improvements and opening those doors because I think Ed and I in general and inclusivity in general has got quite a momentum with lots of Lots of businesses, but it intertwines very in cleverly into how people are becoming more socially intelligent and from a procurement perspective and how they are now, including these elements within the procurement process. Yeah. You reminded me of a time where I received a call at 3:00 AM once from one of my security officers. He said he needed a pair of shoes, He didn't. He did. He didn't ring me at three o'clock in the morning again, put it that way, He went bare feet the next day. When you work nights you forget that the rest of the world is sleeping. I know. Absolutely. Lucy what does a male allyship mean to women? Oh, I think it can mean multiple things, but just listening to what you and CTM were just saying there. but it's, so everything Ctan was saying, I was thinking, yep. Exactly the same in tech. You know, I'd rather sta the other day that 50% of women by the age of. 35 leave the industry is because of pretty much all the stuff that c Tam was saying, but also you talk about uniform, I'd think about the times that when I first started out my career and I felt that I had to wear a suit to sit to fit in, I felt that I had to wear like. Grays and blacks and neutral colors. And I know the audience can't see this, but I'm wearing a bright pink jumper and like shifting a, shifting that mentality to kind of be your authentic self. I know it's slightly different and it's a completely different subject, but I just wanted to kind of add that bit in there because it's moving security into tech. It's exactly the same. It's really, and it's just, it was fascinating hearing you to talk about that. But Yolandi were asking me why male allyship is important.. Another big question that you've put on my shoulders. Thank you very much, I think that there's multiple things here that male allies can support the progress towards the equity across all levels. I think it's about having somebody there that's questioning and challenging other behaviors as well. I think it's about bringing that balance. I keep saying it, it's sharing that piece of the pie. and actually, and from my own personal experience, having a male ally that kind of helps you and guides you through all the things that you need when you're, when you are tackling your career, it actually, Can either make or break your career in the sense that there's some men that I've worked with recently who have been massive allies to me, nothing but supporting me, going out their way to kind of spend 30 minutes an hour. The other week someone spent two hours with me just so they could help me get something I needed to do over the line. But it was those people that kept me in tech, kept me thinking, I'm gonna do this, inspired me to go and start my own business. Because the truth be told, probably about three or four years ago, I was thinking, do you know what? I'm gonna leave the industry together. I'm gonna go and do something different. I'm gonna go and do learning and development, or I'm gonna go and do like working fashion or something like that. And I felt be, I felt I was being pushed where my ally goes, no, I'm not pushing you out. I'm pushing you up. I'm pushing you into the right circles. And I think that's why it's important to women is to have another. Voice that perhaps hasn't gone through the same things as you but is they're going, well, I've got there. How can I help you get there too? Yeah, you are right there. And I think while you were talking, I was thinking, you know, about all the really powerful, influential men that have been in my life and how I'm even shaped by the things that they told me and the way that they think and the values that they have. It's always a shame, you know, when you've worked with such great people that you can't continue working with them. But when you think that a lot of people just aren't getting the same advantages you know, CTAN, let's talk about, the fear around male allyship. I'm, I appreciate this is a pretty loaded question, but where do you think the fear is? Thank you for that Yolanda, but can I just pick up on Lucy's point in your previous question, why is male allyship so important to females? Male allyship is also equally important and equally integral to males because we need to learn, we need to understand, we need to connect more and we can it's about males learning off of females just as much as females learning off of males. And that's, there's got to be more of. Intertwined you know, connectivity so that you can develop, grow, open opportunities and push and develop. And so, and we have to learn, I say we as a man and a male we have to grasp that. I went to an ACEs. Edie and I event last Thursday on menopause awareness and Wow. I was literally taken back with some of the stories and the challenges and the fact that, how do, how did businesses not pick up on. This level of support because it's so easy for an employer to say, well, she's not doing this, she's not doing that. She's clearly not performing. Let's go. But no one's actually taken the time to think, well, actually this is going on in, in their lives. And you know, there's got to be some amendments made or some modifications made to support such great people within our industries and business. So it's a, it was a big eyeopener for me, which lots of businesses then took takeaways back and that's how you learn. That's how the males in that room stood up and learnt. That, you know, I can't believe we're still, you know, this issue now has never gone away. It's always been there, let's be honest. But we are, we're only adapting Now. What I'd like to sort of summarize that last point before answering your loaded question is it's enough talk. We all have to get together and start doing these and putting these in place to to change the landscape. Why is there a fear, fear around male allyship in the sense of why do men feel like they can't be out and proud allies? Do you know what I think it is? I think it's a, it's that cultural shift and it takes years, sometimes decades, you've, you know, there's lots of different cultural examples we can use that have taken time, and I think this Titanics, you know, ship is still trying to turn in the ocean and it's making that turn quicker. I think there's a fear because it's, This is only an opinion. It's that it's the unknown. It's the, you know, it set in. People are set in their ways. Perhaps It's always been done like that. It takes a few brave individuals to step out and say, well, why? Let's break it. Let's rebuild it. Dar, would the coin a phrase,, you know, why fix it if it's not broken? Well, quite frankly, it needs to be broken so that we. Rebuild it with better, stronger blocks and those blocks and better and stronger blocks are the connectivity with the wide spectrum across the diversity range, if that makes sense. And, the, it's the fear of change, I believe there should not be that curtain of fear anymore, and I think lots of people still behi, sit behind that. Put, put business first, put results first. When what we need to do is. Reel back the wheel and think, well, how did we get such a good result? Well, actually we need to connect with far with our people. It's because, you know, we've had this person on the board, we've that person on the team, and it's driving that to the forefront that will help us make that change quicker. So, It's nothing to fear anymore cuz the same question can be asked about race, disability and religious beliefs and so on and so forth. That's got to change. It really does. And, but podcasts like this, figures like Lucy, myself can only try and break those barriers down. And that's what we are here to do. We'll try to do anyway. our sponsor of this podcast, Tia digital solution limited. Offer a wide range of cross-industry it products, applications, and services to meet the global techniques of their customers. If you need CCTV systems, cameras, port switches for sock rooms, PKI, keys to name, but a few Tia digital solution is a solid and reliable vendor partner for you. Market leading brands include ubiquity networks. Tell Tanika Aruba, HPE Jabora Microtech and many more. Contact them at www.theinsightssolutions.com. I should imagine Ctan, that some environments are more competitive than others, and then in those very competitive environments, perhaps where individuals are keep competing to be noticed competing for promotions, you know, that isn't a really good environment is it for men to turn around and say, do you know what I'm gonna. Engage with our ladies in the department a bit more. Help them feel supported, help them feel more confident, because in doing so, there's a subliminal message that you could be helping someone gain a, an advantage over you and be seen more. And so surely that's got to be challenging as well in, in very competitive environments. It does. It does. And being in a competitive environment I tend to lead the team to say, well, I'm sorry, but coverage shifts, KPIs and making money every month should just happen. That is what you get paid for. What I want to see from us as a team is more of the invisible tangibles, if that makes sense. Become visible. I e community engagement. Ed and I champions throughout the business. How can we promote more females, more ethnic backgrounds to, to the business, et cetera. That's where we can make a difference rather than what we aren't normally, you know, what our systems, our back of office functions. That part of the business in terms of results and driving compe competition should just happen in the background. I'm actually employing people to make a difference and I think that's how we all should be looking at how we drive business. Making money and KPIs and service levels should be a given. People pay the premium for that. You know, you stand behind a brand like call like many of our other competitors. That should just happen. Tell me more about how you can change the team, motivate them, lead them, bring more people in. what's your recruitment driven policies on. Male to female ratios, et cetera. You are finding more and more engagement with clients through procurement around that. Then can you tell me who my contract manager is and how many times I'm gonna see them per week? Yeah, I can see that. Well over to you, Lucy, for pretty much the same question really. You know, when you think that men, you know, must and should champion the cause and fights equality, it's not always easy in different environments, is it? What's your take on that? No, I think. it's the fear, and forgive me how I word this. It's the fear of what other people are gonna say. and I've both heard from male friends who are male allies of mine as well as been kind of in a room. And I've heard it too, whereby if someone, if a male is helping a female, it's like the old. Kind of term that men can't be friends of girls kind of thing. And a friend of mine said, you know, I was helping a female colleague out the other day and all the men were asking me like, why I was doing it. Was I trying to get her phone number? Was I trying to take her out for a date? He's like, I'm a married man with two children. Like, the last thing I'm gonna be thinking about is doing that. And I was we talked around that. Equally. I've been in rooms where I'm like, oh, be careful cuz is only helping you because he just wants to take you out for dinner, for example. I'm using different words there for the podcast, but I'm sure you can read with two my lines there. But, and that's incorrect and I think we need to change that. And I think it kind of links into what Steve Thomas is saying around it makes people feel. Like they also don't know what to say or do, and then it kind of prevents them from doing something because it's Ooh, crumms, I really wanna help and I really wanna be a good ally. But ones if someone says this thing to me. But I do also think there's a fear of not being able to say the right thing or. Saying something that's kind of misunderstood. And I think what I would say to that is don't worry ab necessarily about that, because if you're saying the wrong thing, it's a round about how you're wording it. And as long as you kind of contract, I'm a coach, so I'm always gonna use the word contract. But when you're working with someone, whether you're a mentor or a coach or a friend, having a friend maybe contract and say, If I am saying the wrong thing, I want you to hold the mirror up to me and tell me why it's wrong, how it's wrong, because I need to learn, be educated. So I think for me, they're the two fears. I'm sure there's many others and there's probably people listening now being like, well, is this? But Yolanda, can I turn the question around to you? What do you think the fears are? Oh yeah. Bandit. I think in life, all the way through from school. You'll see children develop natural skills around communication and you, we've all known people in school who. Kind of got a little too much, maybe teasing. They were, they never really spoke out when someone threw their coat around the room. And I always thought about those people. I was quite empathic as a child and I always thought, why? If they don't like it, why don't they speak out and say, stop. but then I realized even at that young age, it's not a skillset that all children have to say, stop it and be to some degree confront that situation head on and some children. can do it so naturally and on the other end of the scale, they have to curb their communications to not be too aggressive and confrontational. But the trick as we go through life, isn't it, is to learn what battles to fight and what battles not to fight. but there are so many environments within the workspace that are not safe spaces to speak out. And we're not talking about quality, diversity, inclusivity here or seeing something that's unfair to another individual. We're just talking about speaking out about, you know, not getting enough breaks or the workload people are under and no one really wants to rock the boat. And in all of those environments that cultivate the, let's not rock the boat, let's not stand out. I don't wanna be seen as a troublemaker. I think we've just got to lean those foundations into bigger issues and you can see why it's a safe space for people not to speak out because it's safer for them not to. Does that make sense? It does. Yeah, it really does. Yeah. You know, and I think, you know, all the way from school, you know, all the way through as adults. Oh my God, if I could go back and do my life differently, knowing what I know now, wouldn't we all do things differently? Wouldn't I have stood up for more people? Wouldn't I have stood up for myself more? Would I have spoken out more? I would've done. And I think it's a huge regret that I've sometimes even buried my own head in the sand thinking, oh God, you know, if I speak out about this, I am just gonna get such a reputation or such a name. You know, I've always been fairly conservative in nature, so I just think about all of those other people out there who also equally as uncomfortable as standing out for not, it's not about ridicule, it's. Being labeled, you know, and not being seen as one of the pack. It's traditional basics, isn't it, Lucy? When you look at coaching, it's different pack mentalities and it's prevalent in corporate life. Yeah. Did you know what you're saying? That has made me think about role models and I wonder if maybe some of male allyship, but maybe the fear is that maybe there's not enough role models of. Men actively promoting their allyship on things like social media. Because we, you know, it, we always talk about we need role models kind of with our careers or kind of aspirations, and I always like look at Beyonce or Oprahs, like role models for the work that they do. But I wonder if that's something there because. Just something you said there. This made me go, I wonder if it's role models. I wonder if we need to start looking at something like that, which is great. Yeah. Which is great. Externally focused as in to externally project. That is great. And it can only be done by, let's say, a group of individuals from different backgrounds to show that those doors are opening, but. Internally, those foundations need to be laid through induction programs, through safe spaces, through mentoring, through safe safe space guardians, or whatever you wanna call them. So new starters when they join a business, really understand the approach of where you are at and that open speaking, and that if you feel you're not in a safe space or you want to share something, then there are other alternative avenues. You may have a great role model and a female may look up to a male as a great role model and vice versa, a male. Up to a female as a great role model, but ultimately there'll come a point where that female or male doesn't want to talk to the other male or female about whatever issue it is and they need to speak to another female or need to speak to another male. And you've, we've got to be able to open that up and. And open those channels. So I think yeah you're very right. I mean, but you talk about using stories as a, you know, as a good way to sort of, illustrate some of the change, be it small, be it large, whatever the case may be. But we've we, our operational team in London now consists of three leading females on our operational team, which makes. Just less than 50% of our operational team. And slowly we're migrating more and more females into leadership roles, looking after contract portfolios worth three and a half million standing in front of clients and leading, you know, you've got career progression paths now being built and you know, we here at Core and I personally drive that when I get the team together, like I did yesterday for our divisional monthly meeting. Challenge me, speak freely. This is a free space to openly, you know, use all the F's and Jeff's if you want to and stays in this room. But tell me how you feel, because I'm here to serve you not the other way around. And I want to make sure that your environment is safe and clear and trouble free so you can do what you do best. And that's exactly how what we try to project and I think is an example of. other businesses could potentially learn off of. And I'm open to whatever else is, all of us should be open to what, whatever other good practice there is out there to, to mold and shape how we make that a welcoming environment. I mean, what a great st I'd like to come and work for you, CTAN. I'm sure loads of people would I don't you can I d I don't ask them. They'll tell you a different story altogether. I don't think you could afford me now. No, I'm just kidding. No, you're right. Yeah, you're very right. But look what great start, you know, I think that's the best place to start is in the very heart of your business. And, What about you, Lucy? Have you got anything you want to add? No, I think Ctan kind of took my role model idea and ran with it and I thought that was great. it. I love the kind of almost challenge back around actually. It's also internal. But I also think it's internal to the business, but also internal to you as a human being and person as well. Yes. Has to be. Yeah. So, right. So the question coming to you now, really a very popular one I think, is what sort of skills, Lucy, do you think men need to have to be a good all. I think there's loads of skills. What a great question. You're making me think of my feet here a little bit. I think the first one would probably be around active listening. And it's kind of not listening to respond. It's listening to understand, so it's not around. Again, as a trained coach, I'm trained to kind of listen to those maybe repetitive words or the stories that they're saying to understand the full picture, not listen, not listening to go into kind of advice mode, rescue mode to go and say something. So I think that's a really good skill. But I also think it's, there's a self-awareness skill as well, and I talk a lot about this around checking in on your own bias because. equally. I think we all would like to say that we don't have it and, but we do. Every single one of us right now on this podcast has one, anyone that's listening what you do, but it's around checking yourself with it. And it's probably might take you a while. It's not gonna happen overnight. It's not gonna happen. Like the first kind of day you'll think today I'm gonna check in on my bias. It probably will take you a good couple of years because there'll be things that you'll watch on tele or circumstances that you'll be in, and then you'll catch yourself. And I think it's about learning. How your bias is coming up when you are doing certain things. what about you, CTAN? Do you think bias is something that factors into your every. I think I'm constantly learning. I'd be very open for people to sit me down and say, you know, you could have done that better. And I think it's being able to accept that because lots of people believe in themselves and how they operate and that's it on a winning formula, leave me alone, et cetera, et cetera. You get a lot of that in our industry. You do. There's a lot of ego push. Power play that you have when you get into these sort of senior leadership roles, it shouldn't be like that, but it is, and that needs to change. But the danger is if you fall into that category you're on, you're al you almost feel untouchable and no one can tell you any different. But you have to accept that. You have to be able to break that and rebuild, like we I spoke of earlier, that includes yourself, break it and rebuild it if necessary. And I think the other two virtues that I think have stood me in good ground is, Compassion and energy and I mean, and when I mean that is, is in addition to the ones that Lucy has already said. But I think if you have that compassion and energy and the ability to press, switch off for a minute, CTAN and listen, don't interrupt, don't talk. Let's just let them download whatever that means. Let them press the download button. You just shut up and upload, if that makes sense. And once you're able to do that, apply compassion and the energy, compassion to assimilate what their issues are, or whatever the issue is. Break it down to what you can do. Because there'll be things you can do as a male to promote male allyship and help our fellow females to sort of succeed or overcome the challenges that they may be downloading to you. So assimilate that com compartment them into what can you do and use your energy and your position to really make that change and where you can't. Learn and let's get the support around the, you know, our female colleagues from the rest of the business on how we can deal with that particular issue. And it's a real holistic view to it. And I know I've maybe expanded on it and labored on it a bit too much, but that's what goes on in my head. It. Seems to have worked. It doesn't mean it's right. And I'll always be open to learn more from my fellow colleagues around the industry, male or female. But that seems to have worked and it seems to be progressing in, in a good direction. That doesn't mean I don't review it or review my bias on a regular basis. And we need to find avenues as leaders or role models, as you like to say, Lucy, on how we can. Ourselves, because unless we do that, we are always, we'll continue on a path where we could be doing more harm than actually you know, improvement, if that makes sense. When I did some research for this podcast today, you know, there are a few really good checklists out there, certainly for hr, but I haven't ever seen any HR departments anywhere advocating mal allyship, and I think that could be a something that could work very much in alignment. Good positive mental health practices with HR as well, because when you stand up for others, you are less likely to feel harm yourself if supported in the right way. But being curious was one of the things, one of the themes that came up and asking female colleagues for their opinion. And I think this is such a good space. I'm gonna come to you, Lucy, for this because imagine a workspace and imagine it having men and women and imagining a man saying something inappropriate. There is nothing that makes a woman feel more good in the workplace than another man. Turning to that man and saying, Hey, listen, that comment's not really welcome. Or Yeah. Can you refrain from saying that again, it's not welcome and it's inappropriate, or leave the room. So I think when another man steps in, and it's not about taking your voice or taking your space, you just I, it just, it feels like such a safe space and I don't think all of my work environments have necessarily felt like safe spaces. Yeah. I think I wish I could say it was more. More often than not that someone if I'm being spoken over or I haven't been like invited to speak and et cetera. And I think early on in my career was a lot harder because when you're kind of starting out, you probably feel a little bit more shy and you dunno what to say and I. Thank the people that helped me during that time when they were kind of going, Hey, Lucy, what do you think to that? No, don't think that's appropriate da. But I think it's not just down to men to do that, Yolanda. I think it's equally down to women to also kind of bring that space in too. And wrongly or rightly, in the current place where I work, I do a lot of, if someone's. You know, if it's, it tends to be, again, because it's tech, it tends to be more men than women, da. And I see some of the females kind of flick on and off mute and I think they wanna say something, but they're not, they can't find the gap. So I come off mute and I go, oh, so and so I see you keep coming off and not on and off mute. Have you got something to say there? And I think there is something there around that awareness. And again, it kind of links into what we were just talking about, just around. We live in a more of a virtual world now don't we, a hybrid world where we are on kind of zoom calls, teams calls, have a look and watch your female colleagues and see if they are flicking on and off mute. And if you do see that, be like, oh hey, Lucy. I see it coming off on, off mute yet like, Have you got something to say or you know, however you word it? Use your own words, because I bet you someone, they just, sometimes it's hard to, not just females and not everyone feel not, you know, I'm quite a mouthy person, so I will come off mute and be like, Hey da. Here's my opinion. But not everybody has that confidence, I think NCE is a huge thing. I think you're right. And I learned this with listening to Barons, Karen Brady, when she was talking about you know, women who believe they should be paid more, her answer to this, and you probably know this, Lucy, is that she turned around and she said, are you worth more? And what have you done to justify. That you deserve more money. Have you sat down, made a. Provided the business reasoning, gone to your boss and sat down and said, Hey listen, I think I owed more money. I definitely deserve it. And these are the reasons why. Now, when I first heard this, it was a few years ago, I remember thinking, great hell, does that help women? And I missed the point completely, you know, rather than there needing to be a blanket absence of the gender pay gap, we've gotta go and ask for it. And then I realized the message was about empowerment. The message was about giving women the. To go to ask for it. And I think if we adapted that with a lot of our principles and certainly business practices, we could certainly help ourselves more. And we can also as women, be great allies to other women and do it in the right and positive way. CTAN, you've, done some mentoring bits of work, haven't you how's that working out for you and what are the outcomes? Yes. So, with the previous comment I made about how proud we were to now have introduced you know, more females to our operational leadership team that has come with mentoring and had to do that because I think. It was great and very warming to hear that the candidates, the female members of our team or one in particular came forward and said, this is great. I'm really excited. I absolutely wanna do this, blah, blah, blah, but I will need help in this. And so it was quite easy to just assimilate that, break that down with them and find out the levels of support that they needed and make sure that they had the time and the bandwidth and the capacity in their working week to make sure that. Settle in and enjoy it rather than traditionally, here's your keys, here's your car, here's the site you're looking after and know where you go. So it has to be a full on approach from just a real human being perspective rather than a number or a robot that's come to work for you, quite frankly. And so, You know, we're a different animal to where we were five, 10 years ago in our industry. My induction was just that, here's your phone, here's your list of clients, here's your car, and come and see you in a month's time. Whereas now it's li now it has to be, you know, and it's, yes. And we live and breathe by, by a phrase here at court, which is do the right thing. Just do the right thing. Everything you do, ask that question. Are you doing the right thing? You can never far go wrong from there, and thankfully, in a position that I am in, I've got a few senior leaders in our team that have the same autonomy and openness. They can go and out and reach out to our business and make sure that all of those mechanisms are in. And to make sure that you review in and check in. Not to micromanage the, you know, our female members of staff. But to check in on them, how are they doing? Let's go for lunch and tell me exactly how it's or what's working and what's not working. And when they see that you have a person that can change it around that they buy into it more. so Lucy, now that we recognize Mel Allyship has got win-wins all round, let's just have a recap on where those wins are. Alright? So not just for women, not just for teams, but the wins are wider, aren't. The winds are so much wider. Obviously male allyship is gonna help women stop, but male allyship also will help men and it will help them think differently, grow differently, help with them with their careers. And guess what? A diverse business means better business. So if the more you've got like male allyship and men and women working together, and you are gotta focus on de and I, which you've talked about throughout this podcast, you're gonna have a better business, which means better results, more money, all these stuff that you want for a successful business. So I guess that would probably be my view on it, Yolanda. And then on top of that, why don't we look at. Creating a culture. There isn't a punitive outcome, so let's just say something isn't done correctly. Why can't we encourage an environment where it's all about learnings and outcomes and somebody says something inappropriate? Okay, let's not look at that in a punitive way. Let's look at it as what are the impacts of those types of comments and how can we have the right coaching and the right leadership in businesses to be able to encourage people to think better? and act better. We've come up with quite a lot of really good progressive ideas today. What can you do in your business, c a to encourage more male allyship or maybe even have role models? What's going through your mind right now? Are you seeing opportunities here? Yes, most definitely. We're quite fortunate to have launched Core Together, which is our D N I program. And within that we have guardians for Gender, and it's really reaching out to those guardians and let's now start thinking of creating these forums where we invite and celebrate our females around the cou, around the country. Glean from that. What do they need from us as a business to assist them? How can we support them more? Let's open up those kind of forums and actually do something and make those changes. And so they can feel and measure the results of that. And actually f you know, I'm not saying that they don't feel counted or part of our business, but let's celebrate. Because we wouldn't be where we are today without everybody in our business. And that's absolutely our females as well as our males in the business. That's awesome. What resonated with me, thank you. What resonated with me was Lucy's previous comments around role models and affecting change. And I think that's really my takeaway from this podcast, if I can impart. Words to the listeners, it would be take on board that responsibility as leaders to make change and do it for the right reasons. And let's start celebrating and recognizing all of our players on our teams. And we need to learn males. You know, the answer to everything or anything, quite frankly, if you ask some females, but But we, everybody learns. Yes, males learn. Yes. And we learn every single day, no matter what stage of age you're in. And we talked about cultural change and how long that takes if we don't continue to learn and. An act. That's that last piece. We'll, we will never move from this. So, so I would encourage that to happen more. Your Guardian's for Gender thing, I think it sounds awesome. It definitely, it invokes a lot of very positive attributes. In fact, in my time in the industry, I've worked for a number of Stonewall Award-winning clients and they would. That is music to there is when it comes to hiring a business to manage their security. One thing I've learned though, and probably just lasting comments from both of you now cuz we will need to wrap up. Even though this has gone super fast I've learned in being an ally to the LGBTQ plus industry, I have to learn all the time. What I knew last year, the year before as an ally isn't good enough. Now there's a degree of commitment and evolvement in not only LGBTQ plus narratives, but you know, terminologies and new stories and understanding the very elements of conflict. I find I need to study a lot to be the right type of ally, Lucy, what do you think as allies we should adopt when it comes down to being effective? I think there's so much we've covered today in this conversation that, and I guess I'm just gonna summarize what we've talked about. I think Sitan just said it as well. It's about doing it for the right reason. It's not a tick box exercise at all. So if you're thinking that, get that outta your head right now. I think it's exactly, Yolanda, what you said. It's about education. What you learned yesterday is gonna be something different to what you're gonna learn today is also. About having a fear of kind of worrying about what other people say or worrying that you're gonna get it wrong. You know how? Build up those relationships and ask those questions. And if it comes from a good place, it comes from the right place. You know, if you say the wrong thing, the people are understanding that you are on a learning journey. And a learning curve as well. And I think it's about the commitment there as, and that's exactly what both of you have said, just exactly summarizing what you two have said. There is some commitment there. As businesses, as individuals, as, a podcaster, as a female, as a male, you have to commit to be an ally and all the stuff we've talked about today actually can go across everything from gender to race, et cetera. I've thoroughly enjoyed our discussion and I think we are now in the zone of action. We've talked about it for years. I say years in the last two, three years, it's seen, prevalent conversations really surfacing well, now it's at the surface, it's time to take it off the water and actually nail it to the wall. And that's what we've got to do. And hopefully we've imparted some examples, but open to learning more from all of our partners across who are listening to this podcast where we can further improve. But I, I think it's been a wonderful experience and real massive takeaways and hopefully we all can progress those. Thank you Ctan for your insight, your Guardians for gender project course security. Sounds amazing. And good luck with all of your endeavors, certainly around male allyship in this next coming year. And Lucy, thank you for your insights. Well, both of you were just food for thought today, so I'm very grateful to have you. Thank you for coming onto Security Circle Podcast..