EP 020 Figen Murray OBE and Nick Aldworth The Story From The Beginning Remembered On The Anniversary of Manchester Arena Bombing 22.5.17

FIGEN MURRAY OBE

ASyl , F.ISRM

Figen Murray is the mother of Martyn Hett, who at 29 years of age was tragically killed alongside 21 others at the Manchester Arena terrorist attack in May 2017.

Since the Manchester Arena attack, Figen has been working with the Government and the security industry to make the tangible changes that can help ensure no other family has to go through what hers has. She is the force behind Martyn’s Law (Protect Duty), a legislation requiring publicly accessible locations to improve security against the threat of terrorism. Her ambitions to better understand counter terrorism saw her achieve a distinction in a counter terrorism master’s degree from the University of Central Lancashire.

Figen’s dedication and work in counter terrorism saw her awarded an OBE in the 2022 New Year’s Honours List. She is a Visiting Fellow for the Institute of Strategic Risk Management, a member of the senior leadership team for TINYg, and an Associate Member of the Security Institute.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/figen-murray-obe-b1386075/

Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

0:15

and hello, welcome to IF PO's Security Circle podcast. You know, in the journey of creating these podcasts, I have had the pleasure of speaking to some very, well-known and prestigious people, but this is a very special occasion, certainly for me because I have two very special guests joining me today. One is Nick Aldworth, director of Counter-Terrorism and Risk at Carlisle Security with a former career, a very well-established career in policing. Nick, I think 14 years in Tems Valley and then the Metropolitan piece, and you made it this far. Thank you so much. And then, Our other very, prestigious guest today, Fegan Murray, o b e. Wow. Let's talk about Martin's law mother, family of children, grandmother, consultant, life coach. Is there any end to your talents? Fegan. Nick, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you. Let's wait to be here. Oh, it's a pleasure. Nick, you're very welcome and always love an opportunity to spread the. Brilliant. Thank you. Listen this is gonna feel like the Spanish Inquisition. I've got so many questions to ask you, and then I thought, let's take a view of people who might have seen you, heard of you. They might know Martin's Law, they might understand what change is gonna come to the security industry and to business in general. But let's take it back to the beginning. Fegan. I'd like to first ask you, tell me about Martin. Right. Martin makes me laugh every time somebody asks me that because he literally was a laugh for minute. He had such a good sense of humor. He loved life. He loved human beings. He, everybody who met him would say to you, he's their best friend. That's how he made everybody feel. Every single person I came across. And he made everybody feel special, which is quite a gift for someone to. Yeah, certainly. And, and to sort of hear that third hand, you know, and to hear it through other people, there's certainly an amazing legacy there. Nick, first of all, tell everybody, you know, how did you meet Fegan? Tell us about that journey. Yeah. happily. What I'd very quickly say though before I go into that is if anybody really wants to see for themselves who Martin was and what an amazing young man he was. Just Google him and go and find him on YouTube. he's very present and. I never met him, sadly. But you know, I feel like I know him really well, and as Fegan says, every time somebody asks that question, it also makes me smile as well. But yeah, I'd advocate doing that. So, so I met Fegan when I was the UK's counter-terrorism national coordinator which is the, OR was at that time the senior. Protect and prepare counterterrorism role in the uk. And my boss said, I'd like you to meet this lady. And I didn't really know anything about Fegan or I knew vaguely about Martin because of this high media profile he had as the, the boy with the Dere tattoo. And I, I'll be absolutely honest, I was terrifi. Of, of having this meeting. You know, by that time we knew a number of things that had gone wrong on the 22nd of May, 2017. And my view at that time was This lady Fegan I'm not even sure I knew how to pronounce her name then neither had every right to come into that meeting and be angry at me and, and vent at me because I was a senior representative of the state. That meeting was anything but those things and has led to one of the most fulfilling things in my life, which is the friendship that I have now with. So, I guess really going from the fear and then going to the reassurance that's taken a while and you've gone through a hell of a journey fi yourself, and one of the things that's very clear in the conversation I've had with you prior to this is you know that you've chosen a very compassionate journey rather than a journey with anger, even though you would be very entitled to do that. Tell me why anger wasn't a root for. Well, first of all, Nick, thank you for your kind words. You know very well how much value your friendship and how much of a part of this journey with Martin's law you have become. So Anga was never right from the beginning. Part of my journey I chose very early on not to be upset, not to be cross and in, in, in a way, in any way, shape or form with either the terrorist or further down the line in, you know, during the inquiry with anybody who made mistakes. The terrorist, I feel you know, I used my. Skills that I had from my previous role as a therapist and literally looked at the bigger picture and I looked so far back that I saw the guy as a newborn baby. And I felt, yeah, you were not born a terrorist. Somebody did this to you and therefore and, and I know this sounds controversial, y he, I saw him almost as a victim as well which people may not agree with, but it happens to be my opinion. And he blew himself up. He losts his life over it, you know, for his belief system. And. In terms of what happened in court later on in it at the inquiry, again, I feel that nobody enters the jobs of any emergency services, police, ambulance, it doesn't really matter. With the intention to have a career with amazing, sociable hours, et cetera. These people enter these jobs with the genuine desire to want to make a difference and help people. Mistakes are made and people dying, including my own son. But I can't turn the clock back. So therefore I feel getting angry is totally useless. And I chose also to, to empathize and, and realize that people who have made mistakes know they made mistakes on the day. And they have to face that every morning when they look in the mirror. And that is for the rest of their lives. and, you know, I'll have compassion for them. I think a lot of people can certainly learn from that approach, Fegan, because it seems sometimes that we just have a default into rage and anger. Nick seen a lot of rage and anger in the police, I should imagine in your career. But you're sitting in a meeting with Fegan. You are going through the very early stages knowing that things haven't gone right, and of course we will talk about some of the findings from the inquest that are most relevant. How did it get to you realizing that Fegan wasn't any ordinary grieving mother, you just have to spend 30 seconds in her time in her presence rather. You know, the person that walked into the meeting room that had been set up first of all bless her, was a bit soggy cause it was a miserable day outside. But she was She came in apologizing for taking up my time and I think the point at which that happened was a pretty clear indication that you know, there wasn't somebody here who wanted a fight. Not that they would've got one anyway but you know, and we, he'd spoken Fegan and you know, I know she hates being portrayed as this Mother Teresa type You know, she, she does have a presence about her. She has an incredibly calming presence, a a around her. She, I think naturally is an amazing listener. And what you've just heard her saying about her feelings for other people are really quite tangible and you can fill that empathy when you're spending time talking to her. So I think more importantly though, we found ourselves with very common ground straight away. She told me about the campaign that she was trying to initiate for this new law and the petition that she'd set up and she would tell you about that a bit more in a moment. And we had tried to persuade government immediately after the attack in 2017 to consider legislative change. But unfortunately they didn't have the capacity to do so, at the time. And so we had a real synergy between us in terms of what we both wanted to achieve at that particular. Megan, tell us about the petition then and, and I'd love to know your train of thought. For those people who are listening who feel strongly about something and they don't really quite know how to go about doing it, but it's something that's driving them. You've clearly been very driven and you've had some very clear goals about what you want to achieve. Yeah, I mean, very early on before I started the petition and I had intended to run a petition, I needed to decide which route I go down. And I decided not to go down the change.org route and went the government petition route because right from the beginning I actually wanted the government's support. I didn't want to oppose the government or have a fight with the government. I I felt this is a legislation that is needed. It's common sense, and I want the government to initiate it and help me with it. And that's the route I took for that reason. Obviously, You know, these government petitions take six months and the signatures came very slowly with a lot of prompting. But you know, they managed to get 23 and a half thousand or so signatures. Could have been more, but you know what I was new to the internet. I didn't know how to sort of get more people on board with it. But, you know, so all in all, I'm okay with the figures actually, but the, the, the government actually became more interested once Brendan Cox and Nick Aldworth came on board. I think without Brendan and Nick. It would have probably led Nova, if I'm very honest. So, you know, people thinking it's all my doing. It's absolutely not just my doing it would've really not gone much further. I think. Well fi you've allowed me to bridge very comfortably into my next question for Nick, which is about Brendan Cox. Nick, tell me how Brenda Cox got involved. He's not here to speak for himself. And how has he been, you know, very pivotal so Brendan Cox for, for those who won't know immediately, is the husband of Jo Cox mp who was murdered by a right wing extremist in 2015. And Brendan spent his entire life Really effectively the political campaigner worked for a lot of non-governmental organizations and through that and through his you know, political connections with Joe is in very well connected inside I was about to say inside government, but actually he has a massive cross-party connectivity. And he set up on a charity with others called Survivors Against Terrorism, which I think is where. Fegan first met him. And it's through that organization that counterterrorism policing came to know a number of people as well, including Fegan. And, and obviously Brendan and I would completely concur with, what Fegan has said, which is, you know, the three of us bring. Our own distinct activity into this campaign. And my sense is that if any one of us was missing, it was never gonna happen. So, you know, we had tried to get legislation change, but we'd been ignored. And that's me as, as the police. Brendan was campaigning for a better deal for survivors and, you know, Had very relatively low traction on that. Vegan was trying to change the world's of the government's view or the country's view on protective security. But was, you know, although 23,000 is a great response to petition, it pales into insignificance against some of the numbers you get for some really banal petitions. And so when the three of us came together, you know, I would describe it as, I bring the policy, Brendan brings the politics, and Pgan brings the passion. And, and when you put those three together, they're a fairly powerful force. And I genuinely, you know, Hendon is a legend who I, again, I've come to like enormously. And, and, you know, without his input again, things would not have happened. Doors would not have opened. Senior people would not have signed petitions, they wouldn't have expressed public opinion. and I, I think that you know, fi and I would probably be scratching around, probably still together, but not making as much progress. it's interesting really to hear how, and there must have been times Fegan where you thought, this isn't gonna work. It doesn't matter how hard I'm trying, surely this isn't going the way I want it to. Actually no, I was determined and I remember sitting in that first meeting with Brandon Lewis, the first security minister we managed to meet. And, and I remember Brandon Cox sort of at the end of the meeting looking at me saying, fi, this is your meeting is the final word you wanna say. And I said, actually, yes, there is no, I looked straight at the minister and said, Yeah. As you can see, minister, I'm only five foot short, but I did read somewhere that if you think small is not effective, you have never been in bed with a mosquito and you see I'm the mosquito and I'm not gonna go away until this is done, so I'll be buzzing around. and I kept to that word. And I actually, since Martin died, I literally have nothing else to do, but to concentrate on Martin's law and my school talk. Nick, going back to the very beginning we haven't had Martin's law let's talk about why it was needed. What was the problem? So it was immediately obvious after the Manchester Arena bombing. and probably indicative prior to that with events at the Battle Clan in Paris, but specifically Manchester,, there was an obvious issue here, which is, you know, the gloves had really come off. These people were intent on attacking children and young people in any social setting. You know, without any obvious causal link between the two. I mean, some things you can predict that would attract terrorists more than others. But an Ariana Grande concert, you know, largely attended by very young people, including children was definitely not something that I would've seen on my radar at that point. And that along. The 2014 declaration of the caliphate and the call to arm, so those who couldn't travel to Syria to mobilize themselves in their countries of origin. it just fundamentally changed the nature of terrorism that we had been used to fighting in the uk and probably I would argue globally, in as much as now everybody can be a ter. Using anything as a weapon against any target. A and we knew straight away in 2017 that the state would no longer be able to manage that risk on behalf of society. And society had to start playing a part itself. And the part that's, and the thing about security is it's discretionary activity. And we definitely saw across that time that quite a lot of people weren't interested. In exercising that discretion and implementing good security and therefore when you straight away that a legislative approach was gonna be the only successful approach. Could Nick a follow up if if that's okay in relation to Manchester and this radar thing you mentioned because, you know, coming from a policing background myself, like you, I've always seen many, many, many soft targets. I've always thought we've just been very, very lucky. And I think we've been very, very complacent going back prior to seven seven, but at the time of the Manchester Arena incident, everything was always considered by the UK as being very London centric. The threat was always London centric, so nobody ever thought anything would happen outside London, and I think that was one of the biggest shocks. I think there's some truth to that. So the Manchester Reader attack was the second attack of 2017 the first one being the 22nd of March with the vehicle attack across Westminster Bridge, followed by the stabbing of police constable. Parliament and that particular attack when it manifested itself, we saw as an attack against Parliament with preceding death and injury being almost incidental to what we believed to be the terrorist real purpose. I think that thinking was, you know, in hindsight was clearly. But that's, I guess, how we were working at the time. And so, you know, when I was lying in bed on the evening of the 22nd of May and my then wife came in and said, oh, I think you better turn on the news. I, was genuinely shocked. At what I was seeing or certainly implications of what I was seeing. Cause at that time we hadn't, you know, didn't know what was going on just as an incident. But I, you know, there were hairs on the back of the neck stood up and I went straight to work. And lo and behold, it was what it was. But I think it's a, I think it's a good, it's definitely a good observation that our focus would not necessarily have been on a music event in a provincial. Yeah. Agreed. Fegan. Look, I've been in the security industry now 13, 14 years since, God, I'm getting old. But since leaving the police, and that was a jolly time. I'm thinking now, look, I know how difficult it is to change an industry from within and there are lots of ways that the security industry needs to look at itself, and I'm certainly very willing to put my voice behind. We wanna be better. We know we can be better, and there's a lot of good energy there, and I'm sure you've seen that, but you've come along as a complete outsider, which is totally admirable, and it looks like you're gonna bring about some of the biggest change we've ever had. How do you feel about that? Well, it wasn't my intention. obviously 5, 5, 6 years ago had anyone said that to me, I would've said, don't be ridiculous. I'm a therapist and that's my life's passion. And then everything changed on that night. But you know what, I'm going with it. Somehow it's gained momentum somehow. I'm making connections somehow people. Are listening or want to hear what I have to say. I have no idea why but I'm going with it. I, really do not understand what's happening to my life, but I'm carrying on. But I feel that the security industry now has a A few decisions to make, not just with the new legislation coming in, but obviously there is a shortage of staff, of, reliable security staff and, maybe not just decisions, but maybe take it as an take this time as an opportunity to make some really important changes. I, personally feel that the industry. Needs a lot of fresh, young blood in, and the only way you're gonna attract them is by providing a professional career path in this industry to make it more appealing to young people. and it would also that the knock on positive effect of that would be that the industry will be more professionalized and gain better reputation than it already enjoys at the. Yeah, I agree. And I think you've put that in a very articulate way. I think I may have been a little bit more blunt, huh? But Nick, look I know what it's like having the police and security working alongside, and sometimes it works brilliantly well, doesn't it? And sometimes it really doesn't at all. But tell me please, in your own words, when you realized the gravity. Of how bad things some things had gone. And I get it, we're gonna be focusing on some of the learning and outcomes, but and I know not everything went badly, but there are some things that really didn't go right. And how did that make you feel when you realized the gravity of how significant it was? So I think it was a little while before we. Had an indication of what had gone wrong in terms of, you know, provision of private security at the event. I think quite early on we knew that commander Control hadn't worked particularly well. And I think then when we had the results in the Kors Lake review that started to feel very uncomfortable. I. Being absolutely honest we had already had a number of reviews into what had gone on in 2017. We had the Intelligence Select committee report. We'd had the David Anderson review, and we were already sitting on, I think about a couple of hundred recomme. And when we started to see more, you know, my, my selfish immediate thought was, oh my goodness, me, you know, where's the capacity gonna come from to, to fix this lot? And indeed that actually led to one of the last things I did in the service was to, you know, try and create a rationale for what we should get into and what we shouldn't and who could then deliver against what action. It look. Fegan alluded to something earlier. She said, people don't come into public service certainly come into glory or the easy hours or any of that sort of stuff. They come hopefully to make a difference. And I think when you feel that you might not have done as well as you could have, and I certainly felt that around the Westminster Bridge attack that's an uncomfortable place to be and can become. you know, an intellectual and indeed an emotional burden. when you look at the London Bridge attack as well, and we all saw that rollout, didn't we, in the sense of, you know, how could that happen? I think a lot of people were saying how, but I think Manchester drew the line with a lot of parents, a lot of adults thinking, no, that's not right. And it was worse than that. Nick, as a spectator, it was like, hang on a minute. You're not just trying to harm as many people. You are harming people when they're leav. You know, and I don't think we'd ever come across anything quite so heinous as that. So Fegan, what can we do the security industry to support you? because I appreciate we are not there yet. I know that we are. We've got a little way to go tell us where we are in the time cycle and how people can get involved and just generally. Yeah. First of all, just going back to what you both just said, I think the lesson, the biggest lesson from 2017 with all the attacks happening, has to be, we cannot afford anymore to think this isn't gonna happen here, where it may be. So that, that's the lesson. But in terms of moving forward, obviously the government have announced. What they announced recently, just before Christmas. and that is a good thing. So the security industry was waiting for the government to say something and give a few pointers as to what is expected. The industry has a lot of the information now, and the way the sector can prepare now is. Do as much as you can to actually prepare for the legislation coming in. You've got the guidelines now about numbers of capacity, et cetera, and what is expected. So there is a lot of, stuff that people can. Already put in place and set in motion so that when the Lord does come in, they're ready or more or less ready. I don't expect it to be very smooth. I think there'll be teething problems, but that happens with anything new, any changes difficult. And there will be a period of embedment, but, you know, I'm sure Nick and I and Brendan will be here to continue sort of, supporting and helping and guiding where we can. I feel also fegan that, you know, there'll be lots of other people across the industry, in fact, thousands supporting you. And I think if anything, Nick, the biggest concern that I think most people share is how, you know this, how this enhancement of a premise is going to be, you know, rolled out. Whether it's going to be trained professionals, people have to attend courses or what kind of uniformity and consistency and there's certainly some gray area there. When you think that prior to Manchester, we discovered that, you know, you, there was a kind of law in place that you had to have so many to toilets at a concert, an outdoor concert per thousand people, but there was nothing in place at all to, protect those people, around counter-terrorism measures or H V M, for example. So, Nick, what's your view on that? Oh, well, look, I mean, it, it's something that both Fegan and I weave into some of our presentations comedically in some respects, but also to make quite a serious point, which is quite rights, a law that says how many you've got have and how your pies should be, but nothing that says that you should be kept safe and secure from terrorism. Well just going back to or, or feeding on from that and what people ought to be. People should start doing what they should already be doing would be my answer to that. And there is nothing new in this law that people shouldn't be doing already as good practice. All the law is gonna do is take away the discretion that people were exercising in not doing the right thing. So, you know, anybody worth. These days should be as my old boss, Neil Basu, said, should be a CT citizen, and the government's made that nice and easy. Mm-hmm. for everybody. Now by providing free 45 minute E-learning. Anybody who's operating a space that has customers coming into it really ought to be making sure that they understand what threats are against that location, what their vulnerabilities might be, and have a plan to deal with that when it all comes on top. None of that stuff should be overly complex. One of the things that came outta Manchester was the need for some of the advice to be a bit more consistent and the approach to risk assessment to be a bit more consistent. an authoritative single voice of how risks should be managed is now available for free on the protect UK website. So genuinely, I think that the answer to the question, what should people be doing? Is as simple as they should be to whom what they ought to be doing already. Just get on and do it. If you do it now, you don't have to worry about enforcement or regulation later. Fegan, what does it look like for you? 2023? Tell me what's coming up this year. Yeah, so, obviously my diary keeps for some reason filling up very fast. I not sure how I manage that again. So I'm trying to do my work life balance a little bit better by building in some free day in the week or a couple of free days in the week that, actually admin days and a bit of family time. But I'm continuing the work I'm doing. I'm gonna continue the work I'm doing with schools as well. And, and coming back to the legislation, I'm really so pleased that, the government is actually considering the standard tier of a hundred plus capacity, which means that my friends and my family, we can all go into big cafes and restaurants. Knowing in the future, not what, once the legislation is in that, that a lot of the staff hopefully will have done the, the training that they need to do and know what to do in case of emergency. And that feels reassuring, you know, for my family and friends as well. It, it's o obviously it's too late from art and, and, and the other who died, but I am just so hopeful that in future people are just kept safer through the legislation that's to come. and Nick this, you know, Gans touched on a really good point there about the, everybody having a broader base of education because we know, don't we from Parsons Green, that you take one individual that's had some education around terrorism when you take one individual who hasn't, and they both react very differently during the event and post the event in relation to mental health and P T S D. so it is a win-win all round, right? There shouldn't be anyone complaining about this. Yeah. And look, I don't think I've heard anybody complain. I've heard people express concern about, you know, potential costs. But we've always advocated that the actions that are sought through is legislation should be low or no cost in most cases. I think where those large capacity venues have got raging vulnerabilities, It's absolutely right that they invest in putting those things right than rather ignore them. But I think, you know, 2023 will continue to see the corring of the security industry as a coherent group of people who have consistently supported what we do. And you know, you asked question, you asked Fi earlier, you know, whether she ever doubted this was gonna happen. You know, she's been the lantern upon which I have flown to on so many occasions when I have thought, oh my God, this is going nowhere. Cause I'm a cynical old copper who doesn't trust anybody's word. and so, you know, I think the security industry stepped in alongside and. It's such a powerful voice that on those days when, you know, I no longer believed in fairies I was buoyed by the positivity that came outta the industry. And I think it will stay there. I think the industry is becoming younger. Certainly Fegan you, you created some very good, concepts there around the longevity of the industry and the professionalism, needing to invite younger people in on a professional track. But PGAN to wrap up now cause we are running outta time. Regretfully your husband's been amazing, hasn't he? Throughout this process tell me what it's been like. Married to such a fantastic man. Yeah. He's an absolute treasure. I, you know, it was really difficult for me at the beginning because when Martin died, I took it really personal as a mother. And you know, the guy killed my baby. and I said to him, unfortunately, I have to grieve as a mother. I can't grieve as a parent. You'll have to find your own way through grieving. And of course we grieve together, but we also, Martin's law, he knew is something I had to do as a mum, not with him and me together. But he has all, having said that been an integral part because he's supported me in it. He's putting up with endless nights where he has to cook his own tea. Because I'm somewhere in London or in North all or York, or in Cardiff doing presentations and staying overnight. So he's put up with a lot and he's so supportive of it. And hopefully he's proud of it as well. Proud of the whole thing that I'm doing. So, he, without his support again, I couldn't have done much because I would've had to slow down and just, Look after family and my home and to neglect both a little bit during the process. But hopefully I'll change that this year a bit. I'll understandably so. Nick, we talked, didn't we Very briefly about James Brokenshire. I know that he was somebody bless his cotton socks. You know, he really did seem to be a good ally for the security industry. He would certainly be mine nod. Did you ever come across him? Yeah, we. I think we've met about seven security ministers, which says a lot about the state of government over the last few years. And you should try and be in a meeting with somebody called Brandon and somebody called Brendan and see if you can pull that one off. But we met James Brokenshire who was just the most delightful man and human being and. Look, we've met all, all these people have been good,, but he left me with a sense, the strongest sense of any of them. That he was going to do something. Yeah. For real. Mm-hmm. And, you know, his early death was just such a sadness for everybody his family, his friends, his political colleagues, but for those of us who saw him as being the person that was gonna open the door for us and make this happen yeah, a man gone long before his. And Martin also Fegan. big thank you to Martin. I know that it's not been an easy journey for you, but I think I speak on behalf of everybody. When I say Fegan, how tremendously proud I am of what you've achieved and the way you've gone about it is is very long lasting actually, since our very first conversation. So thank you both for joining me today on Security Circle. Thank you. Thank you. You're very welcome.