The Security Circle

EP 032 Rollo 'I'm A Security Influencer, But Really, It's Security That Influences me'

• Rollo Davies • Season 1 • Episode 32

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Rollo epitomizes a steadfast and devoted luminary within the realm of physical security, boasting a commendable tenure of over three decades, a journey that commenced following his departure from the Metropolitan Police Service during the 1990s. His unwavering commitment to continuous industry enhancement is evidenced through his pivotal role as a co-founder of the prominent online industry periodical, TPSO (TheProfessionalSecurityOfficer.com), tailored exclusively for frontline security personnel.

Subsequent to this, Rollo emerged as a pivotal collaborator in the establishment of the Guild of Security Industry Professionals—a peer-driven support network catering to dedicated officers and astute operational managers. In tandem, he contributed significantly to the incubation of the seminal research undertaking titled "ViolenceAgainstSecurityOfficers.info," underscoring his abiding dedication to critical security concerns.

Evidencing his unwavering dedication to advancing the field, Rollo assumes an active role in endorsing the Security Institute, among several other prominent UK trade associations. His advisory contributions, extending occasionally to the esteemed regulatory body, the Security Industry Authority, resonate as a testament to his expertise and profound insights.

In a demonstration of industry-wide recognition, Rollo's luminary stature ascended to global prominence when IFSEC Global acclaimed him as the second most influential personality worldwide within the security domain, particularly in the context of "thought leadership," during the year 2019. This singular honor was magnificently complemented by his receipt of the esteemed "George Van Schalkwyk" award, conferred by the Security Institute—an accolade of great distinction that heralded his exceptional contributions to the UK security landscape.

On the digital sphere, Rollo's reach extends far and wide, where his social media resonance resonates as a testament to his peerless influence. Through these channels, he adroitly showcases the exemplary undertakings of security professionals, thereby shedding light on their pivotal contributions and indispensability.

Even amidst his multifaceted engagement across the industry spectrum, Rollo's bedrock identity remains that of an impassioned, unwavering, and enthusiastic operational security management professional, bolstered by an illustrious history of achievements that underscore his commitment to excellence.
 
https://violenceagainstsecurity.info/

https://twitter.com/SecurityRollo

https://www.linkedin.com/in/rollodavies/

Https://RolloDavies.com

Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Yoyo:

Hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. If PO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, and we are dedicated to providing meaningful education and certification for all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference to our members mental health and wellbeing. And with me today is a very special guest, shall we say. He is seasoned, experienced, bunny, well connect and he's, I'm looking at his face as I'm saying this. He's, he's quite humble well connected. Is he an influencer? I think so. With me today is Rollo. Rollo. I don't even have to say your second name. Everybody knows who you are, right.

Rollo:

Yoyo, it's probably the only benefit of having a strange Scandinavian name. I'm quite lucky I wasn't Hagar, to be perfectly honest. So small mercies

Yoyo:

I didn't know you had a Scandinavian name. Is it, is it an abbreviation then for something else?

Rollo:

There's a really sad, empathetic, not very interesting story behind my name. My mum was a big fan of Mission Impossible and one of the main characters in the sixties was called Rowlin, right? And she thought, oh, I'd love to call my son Rowlin, but of course it would've been ridiculous. So instead, far more sensibly, she looked through a book and picked the next nearest name she could find, which was of course, Rollo. Nothing to do with any Scandinavian roots. But no, I am named after William Thence grandfather and the first Viking to.

Yoyo:

Crikey. I feel like I've learned something today already, and it's only midday. Rollo, you've been around a long time and I don't know anybody who doesn't know you. Yeah. Your reach is very broad. Something that I think others would aspire to. So tell me, look, in all of the years that you've been involved with security, and we're gonna go into all the different things you're passionate about, what isn't the security industry getting right at the moment?

Rollo:

Oh, there's a lot going on there. There's lots of things holding the industry back. One of my bug bears at the moment are training standards and or the ability of certain elements to get hold of SIA mandatory training certificates without apparently ever having done much in the way of SIA mandatory training. It, it's pretty endemic. It's holding the industry back, no end. And I know the SIA is aware of it. Now I've been involved in a few, investigations recently into some of these cowboy training companies. basically selling. Pass certificates to anyone that can show up for a few hours when they should have been on a five or six day course.

Yoyo:

So the benefit, the benefit to this is that the organizers who aren't running things properly are just making money out of each person is going through their process and of course the person comes out at the end of it with an s i a license and they dunno anything about security or what their real perfunctory responsibilities are. Dangerous. Huh.

Rollo:

Oh, it's immensely dangerous. It's not just holding the industry back, the, these individuals, because they don't know the fundamentals of security. In an emergency situation, they won't have the ability to communicate clearly, concisely and calmly to the public or the emergency services. And quite frankly, they're a danger to themselves and all those around them. So it, it's worsen holding the industry back. It's, I should think, unfortunately, just a matter of time before people get badly hurt because of one of these incompetent and poorly trained security officers.

Yoyo:

So what can we do at the moment, let's just say I'm considering the broad range of listeners that we have for the Security Circle podcast. I'm thinking if you suspect that you know somebody that hasn't had a proper course and that is potentially subjected to this type of unorthodox, training, what can they do to highlight that and who do they highlight it to?

Rollo:

The s i a are regulator, the security industry authority on their website. They have a form that you can use to report not just criminal activity, but any kind of malpractice or unprofessionalism or malfeasance by people in the security industry. And the SIA are taking this a lot more seriously than they always used to. Steps are being taken to make things a lot better, and I've been informed that they are channeling more resources into this kind of field. So, report, report, report, keep reporting it to the s I A until they find time and resources to look into the matter, gather the evidence, and get those individuals out of the industry.

Yoyo:

It's the rogue operators, as well as that really damage our industry, isn't it? And we know that, they're responsible for keeping costs down. When it comes down to officers getting paid a decent hourly rate. How, how damaging is this, you know, to the industry

Rollo:

as a whole? Well, it's awful. I had a chat with, I, I was privileged enough to do a presentation in front of the SIA senior leadership a few months ago. Ooh, Rollo, I get you. Well, you know, as you do. It was a Tuesday. You're so well connected these days. I was asked at the end if you were in our shoes, what one thing would you do to help the industry? And I said, Regulation of security providers, officers are regulating now regulate the companies that employ them, regulate the employers. I mean,, a few simple checks and balances. And most of the cowboys would be outta the industry, the click of a finger. So it's not hard to do. And I know there's been a lot of a lot of movement from the SIA and, and they want to do this, but it seems like the problem is with the home office, I know the SI haven't got a great deal of leeway in the private security industry act, but they could do this. And it seems like the home office are, dragging their heels a bit to get it done.

Yoyo:

Let's look at that then, because I know that there are other companies, other leaders of businesses that are very pro having a standard that should be, you know, above the rest. There's a lot of people really genuinely driving up standard in the security industry. So what isn't the home office doing? And why are they so slow to make a decision here? What's the resistance?

Rollo:

one, it's money, of course, regulation of another set of companies would require increase in the amount that's funded towards the investigation arm of the SIA. That's inevitable and it has to be done really. But the security industry as a whole is viewed by central government as we pretty much know as Unimportant. They're disinterested. I mean, just take a look at Covid. it took petitions into the government and A huge amount of publicity just to get security officers regarded as key workers. these were the people that were dealing with alarm activations because the police were too busy to get there. They were after offices that had been deserted when when companies had sent everyone home, and yet they weren't viewed as key workers. And

Yoyo:

It was a huge oversight. It was such a huge oversight. I remember at the time a lot of us were just kind of like our fists were in the air. Like how could we be overlooked? But then don't you think that's sort of systemic of the fact that security is overlooked anyway. Like you only really notice security when something's gone extremely well or extremely bad, and therefore we're kind of an invisible layer, aren't we? And maybe that's the problem.

Rollo:

That's right. I mean, there's, there's not a great deal of praise and enthusiasm on the security industry, as I say to my security officers you can do the right thing 100 times, but if you get something wrong just once and it causes a problem, then that's all an employer. It's all the public, it's all anyone will remember. So it's a pretty thankless task. There's all the people that go into security these days, I take my hat off to them to be perfectly honest, because well,

Yoyo:

they don't go into security either to earn lots of money either, do they really? yeah, you're right. It is a thankless task. In fact, I was only saying the morning molo that we're not very good at complimenting each other either. We're not very good at giving each other really good feedback in the security industry. And I'm wondering if that's in part because we have a huge migration of police into security and military, into security, and those are two institutions that don't really go around saying, well done today, buddy. You did a great job.

Rollo:

well, well, you'd think that, but I, I'd like to think that the, the, the police in the military that are coming into the industry are are doing it big favors. To be perfectly honest. I have noticed. Unfortunately. But going back several years, being an entry to the security industry coming from the police or coming from the military immediately gave you a foot up the ladder. You are always highly regarded. It was assumed that you would make a, a superb security officer or security manager. However the industry's going in a different direction. It's becoming more academic. There's a lot more emphasis on degrees or more advanced training than there ever was about police and military experience. So yeah, that was a factor at one stage. But I think it's we're, we are now going off a bit of a tangent in the industry for good or bad, I don't quite know yet, but I'm a little bit concerned.

Yoyo:

Yeah. And you know, there are good stories, aren't they? And there are not so good stories and each to their own, but, you know, you've only gotta look at a motorcycle unit in the police and think, you know, where is the transferable skillset for someone to come in and run an operation and be an organization's head of security. I think there's less and less opportunities, and I certainly come across organizations when recruiting, they prefer follow. Rather than taking a retiree from the police force for a number of reasons, they prefer taking someone who's done part service and who's got commercial experience or corporate experience. Because even coming from the police or military into security, you're coming into a corporate environment and the language is a lot different as well, isn't it?

Rollo:

Yeah, it, it certainly is. It's yeah, it, it's a bit of an alien environment with you to a lot of police and military and it's not probably what they expect either. You know, it, it would've seemed like the soul of the industry is all about the protection of people and property and data. So when you leave the police, so when you leave the military and you, you've already got that background, you'd think that was enough. That was enough ideology and enough mindset to make you a success in the in the security industry because of the regulations, because of the way that you are monitored and everyone has a phone camera now. It's not just, it's, you've gotta be involved in public relations. You've gotta be a, a media expert, anyone pulls outta the camera. You've gotta be smiley and fluffy and lovable. And it's really getting in the way of actually doing security work anymore.

Yoyo:

Easy for you to be smiling and fluffy and lovable. Rollo,

Rollo:

Only if there's a camera on Yeah,

Yoyo:

if there's a camera on watch roll's. Face change. In fact, I, when I left the police, it was 2009 and the use of mobile phone devices was in its infancy and it, they were mainly used when we had to go into ru I'm gonna try and describe this. This is hilarious. The first use of mobile phones. We were in a rural area, and it was at the time where Tony Blair had passed the sanction of making fox hunting illegal. And you've got two, two rival, you know, you've got the pro hunters and you've got the protestors to stop the hunts. and because they knew the law of common assault, they knew that even a poke, a poke in the elbow, a nudge in the elbow, that could be common assault. So what they used to do, they used to put their hands down by their sides and hold their thighs and they just used to jostle with each other, like air atoms in a room and say, he touched me, he touched me. He poked me. Like keeping all there. It was just so funny. And, and it was really, it was really hard not to laugh. And, and they always had someone with a camera, with a phone. It was so hard not to laugh. Cause what you wanted to say guys, is, listen. Stop this silliness. You're like a bunch of kids. The only thing as well is I have a very expressive face, so I can never play poker. So if someone in comes and records me wearing a police uniform, it's written all on my face, the rolling of the eyes and the come on now. It's, it's tough for security as well though, right?

Rollo:

Yeah, it is. I mean, there's cameras everywhere and you've, you've seen the door supervisors, they're get in in so much trouble cuz the, the industry has changed so much. Door supervisors are now trained to be more applicating and use calm, soothing words to the person that's punching you in the face. Whereas back in the day before the s i a and saw regulation they've got now, the door supervisors would very quickly deal with a situation that would involve someone lying on the pavement a hundred yards down the road, being collected by an ambulance. You still see the stuff on, on YouTube, don't you? Where the door supervisors do lose it completely. Yeah, I know. And that sort of thing reflects badly on the entire industry. I mean, they're in the shop window know of the industry. They're in the frontline. When you appear all over to 1.2 million views and you are, there's three of you kicking someone who's down on the ground, no one sees what happens before. No one sees what's led up to that. three thugs of SIA licenses giving someone the kick in.

Yoyo:

There was something Hope Pro High, very high profile recently that angered a lot of women who are trying to campaign for the women's safety movement insecurity. And it was the story that was very publicized across all of the tabloids about a child, basically a teen who was ejected from a teen party wh where there would be no alcohol clearly. And she was taken out. With a choke hold around her neck. And this has angered a lot of people. We were all taught in the police, you know, that there are certain zones of the body that are very delicate and you only really go for them if you feel that your life is in danger. And it is, it was not good practice. It doesn't reflect the, our licensed industry very well. And there does need to be better training around what is and what isn't acceptable. But let's face it, you know, we've still moved on so far. Rollo, I was round, you know, before the s i a and I know that the industry used to attract people that used to like having a fight. And at the end of the night they would all be piling on and, you know, there'd be a rumble in the street. And it was, it was like a weekly Friday. Why, why did, where did Friday fight night come from that we have, we, we have moved a long way, I think. But we're always gonna have some pockets of descent. We.

Rollo:

I mean, the private security industry act was basically a, as you alluded to, to stamp out the, the rogue criminal violent element from door supervisory work because the public outcry was becoming so much, they were seeing brawls on their high streets in four different locations every sort of Thursday, Friday, and Saturday night. And it used to be an absolute jungle. So yep. The introduction of the private security industry app wasn't a surprise to any anyone. It was very successful in weeding out the the dead wood and the nasty element from the door supervisory trade. However, it was kind of knocked up in a hurry, and it left out lots of other elements of the industry that it it should have been looking at more closely. And it

Yoyo:

let's look at a few true stories in both of our experiences. I recall a shopping mall. I recall security officer losing his s I a license because he stood in front of a teen on a bicycle to stop him cycling through the mall. And when the teen stopped the bicycle, suddenly he kind of fell off and hurt himself., not have scratches and light bruises, but the complaint went in. That that officer, who I firmly believe wasn't using excessive force, but literally used himself to stand in front of the bicycle to say, listen, fella, get off the bike. You are not supposed to be cycling through a shopping mall. And yet he lost his S I A license. I know that he had to appeal and as a foreign national, had a really tough time understanding appeals processes and needed support from his line manager to do it. It worked. It was successful. But imagine that there were a period of months on a very low income. He couldn't work in his profession because of that. Look, that's tough. And I think it's, what I wanted to say in relation to that really is that protecting the license is really important when you have it. And we don't want to be losing it for city things, but the guy going out grabbing the teen girl ran a neck that deserves to lose his license, you know?

Rollo:

Yeah, ab absolutely. I mean, the, the, I can't see many ways anyone can justify that level of violence or or physical restraint. There were things like the, the kid on the, on the bike who was stopped by the security officer. I completely agree with you. It's a sort of thing I would've felt quite justified and reasonable to do. Yeah. But everyone has to be so cautious these days because the SIA first responsibility is to the public. It's public protection. They're not there to promote the security industry or look after us or help the security officers. They're there to protect the public. So any kind of allegation whatsoever, the first thing the SI will do is pull someone's license. Pending investigation, and sometimes that investigation can take a very, very long time. It's why I'm glad now that there's a growing union within the security industry. And yes, I does seem to be listening more to people who have experience in the industry and taking a more, should we say, common sense approach to a lot of incidents. But yeah, there, there are hundreds and hundreds of incidents as you can imagine, where people have been suspended for reasons that any reasonable person would think are are unacceptable or too petty. So we can only hope it can get better.

Yoyo:

We've got a podcast with Michelle Russell and I do feel for Michelle's challenge, you know, because she isn't given an awful lot of powers really. and I couldn't help but feel that the industry's kind of asking for more regulatory powers, but it's not straightforward. Tell me about the union.

Rollo:

Well, talk about a trade union in the security industry that's been going on for quite a while. Yeah. I know that back in 2011 a trade union was set up called the National Security Workers Union uk. I know about that because I founded it. Advertised it all over social media, tried to spread the word amongst friends. I'll tell you how it started. I was, I was working with security tasks at the time in security Task Mobile, and some friends in one of our departments had lost the contract they were working for and they'd all been topi over by another very large security company who I won't known to save their blushes. So they came to me and said they were getting mucked about the company they were going to. Didn't want to honor their current terms and conditions. Yeah. So listen, I'll come along and I'll have a chat. So I basically went along with with a group of eight, nine of these guys to an office near, near the tower in London. Had a chat with the company involved and they had to back down. I just quoted the law to them and they sort of went into a little huddle ummed and arrred a bit, and then they had to agree to bringing our guys over on their current terms and conditions. They weren't expecting that because it would have cost them a bit too much, but for, for taking the contract over. a few people heard about this and they said, well, I, I could do, I could do some advice too. I've got a situation. Can you, you know, come and help me out? So I thought long and hard about it. I thought, well, the young one gonna do this. So just set up, just set up a trained union it to formalize everything. So I did. And it took months and months and months to be recognized by the government, the certification office. And I publicized it all over social media and feedback was really positive. But one thing in the security industry, everyone is very cynical since the s i A came along and promised a massive increase in everyone's pay and it would be a utopia of an industry since that didn't happen. Everyone, everyone is cynical about anything that comes along that's trying to do good. Yeah. So, I, I faced a situation where I'd have people join the union and they, I, I. I said, I didn't put restrictions on people, how long people had to be a member before I'd help them out because I thought, well, people need help immediately. So I'm not gonna say you have to be a member for six months because that's, that's too long for some people. They need help. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I said, okay, well what I'll do, everyone that needs help, if they join the union, they've paid one set of subs, I will assist. And I quite literally had people. Join the union, pay three pound 99 or four pound 99 for the first month or whatever it was. Yeah. Give me up. I'd drive out to Oxbridge with a meeting with their HR department and sit in on a, on a disciplinary I'd go out for a follow up and we'd get it quashed successfully. Yeah. But the person I'd help would cancel their, cancel their standing order and I wouldn't hear from them again. Oh, robo. So I ended up, after about a year and a half, I was supplementing the union out of outta my salary. I just couldn't afford to do it. Couldn't keep going. No, that's a

Yoyo:

real shame.

Rollo:

Oh, it, it was heartbreaking. We, we, cause there was such a need for trade union, but we never quite reached that critical mass that would've allow me to have to have kept going. However, today there is a, there is a, a security industry union out there called the Security Industry Federation. Right? That's one another, another ex copper. Called Daniel, who's who's a lovely chap, and I, I sat on my hands for a long time. Before getting in touch with him, I thought, one, I need to see these motivations are benevolent. Mm-hmm. And two, just to, to see if he, if he laughs, whether or not he hits the same problems I had. And best to walk away. So after about six months, I saw he was in it for the long term. So I reached out to him, had a long discussion about how he saw the union, and I was quite impressed. You, you think of a trade union. You think immediately the dearly departed Bob Crow, an ultra, ultra left wing reactionary strike, minor strikes. Absolutely. But that's, that, that, that's really not what the s i f, the security industry federation's all about. It's about dealing with cowboys in the industry and it's about being a unified voice because that's what 430 licensed s i security officers at the moment and 30. Yeah.

Yoyo:

Do you know that only 10% of those are women? I know. I know. Oh, yeah. It's low still, but, okay. So we've all had, in our careers, I've had experiences of being employed and being told to get everybody through the TP process to sign a new contract. And I just remember at the time thinking, this doesn't feel right. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So what do you do? Who do you go to if you think your employer is doing a little bit of a. Swift sneaky one because so many people will sign a new contract. They'll not realize they're relinquishing the amazing T's and C's terms and conditions that they've already got with their existing contract, cuz they may have been there 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years. They might have better holiday Titlements. And it's just taking advantage, isn't it, of the fact that they don't know their rights.

Rollo:

It's, and it's despicable and it's endemic and it still goes on today, it may be not as bad as it was 10 years ago, but it is absolutely appalling the way security officers are treated. And nine times out of 10, one, they're not gonna realize that they're being diddled or or mistreated or not legally dealt with. So look for help anyway, but. Trade union is a great idea. If you have any questions if you have the money, then go to a solicitor and seek independent legal advice as they say. But who's gonna do that if you want 10 pounds an hour? I strongly recommend in the first instance, acas. they don't only deal with tribunals if you have any kind of legal, issue with the company that you're working with or may potentially be working for. Yeah. And great first port of call. And they won't charge you for the advice they give.

Yoyo:

That's right. And they're great for anything. They're great for anything around policy, anything around harassment and bullying, especially if you are in a minorities group or LGBTQ plus community. There's a lot around diversity and inclusivity. There's a lot for women in gender gender equality. So acas definitely, and to make sure you've got the right website, I noticed that sometimes Google disrupts the order of play and you think you are going through to an ACAS website. The ACAS website has got a.org gov, after it. Same as the sia when you go there and I'll have to be honest, there is a lot of information on the SIA website as well, isn't there?

Rollo:

Yeah, it's absolutely huge. I'm a little bit upset when, when the SIA website was absorbed by the central.gov thing, a lot of information that was on the website previously disappeared. Old reports from maybe 10 years ago. That sort of thing didn't seem to make it in the transition to the to the big central website. But there is a huge amount of information on just about every subject. I don't find the website all that easy to navigate now, but if you've got time over a lunch hour or a day off, then then give it a look. Nine times outta 10, you'll find an answer to this question you have, or you'll find that your sign posted towards the right people at least.

Yoyo:

So we've got ACAS, the SIA we've got the Security Industry Federation, which is the union. There are other unions actually that also are very good at supporting the security industry. Definitely worth putting some feels out and look most of the time, I think it's fair to say Rollo, isn't it? That's, you don't need a union most of the time. But it's like an insurance. I think definitely support your union because be a part of one, because they also are very good at letting you know where they're supporting certain organizations and teams and individuals. And you get to see the wider picture about how they're operating. You get to vote in their leaders and you get to play an active part. And for some people it's a really good direction to become a trade union representative to help support. I have friends who are, you know, it's so funny, it's a true story. I encouraged a gal, pal of mine, who I really rate in this industry to join the union that I was in at the time. She ended up becoming my union rep when I needed some help. I know, right? And you think, why would you need help Yoyo? Surely you've got it all squared away. But that's the point. You never know what's around the corner. And sometimes tackling your employer with an issue that has a lot of ambiguity, you know, it's important to have that person for support and clarity. And I think we're both nodding in agreement that it's highly recommended and who would've thought that, you know, somebody that I'd encourage to join would end up helping me one day. And I think that's what's really remarkable about this industry. Okay, so the industry's got a number of super cool publications, but you've got one that's really close to your heart, haven't you? Rollo take us through the TPSO.

Rollo:

Okay, well, since the union dissolved, I'd always been looking for something else, something to help frontline security officers, something that will make a difference, improve standards, increase the level of professionalism I've been ing alarming for, for probably a few years. And an old friend of mine I worked with as a security supervisor at a merchant bank in the city of London, probably 20 years ago, rang me up out the blue. I called Michael Sullivan, he's a row. I saw that trade union you were involved in a few years ago. So I, I think you're probably just the man to help me out here, so I'm like, Mike, what is it? He's gone. Well. I'd like to start a magazine. For frontline security officers in the physical security industry. So I thought, well, okay, well that sounds like, a really good idea, Mike. And he's going well do you wanna get involved? So I, I carefully considered it for about 1.6 seconds. I said, yes, of course, let's do it. So he started talking to me about the research and the market research and how long it would take to set up and the things he had to do, and the fact that it would probably be two and a half years down the line before we publish something. So I said, okay, well, I'm in, but we're, what, what is it now? It's on March. I go, okay, well we published in September. He's like, what? I go, no, if we're gonna do it, do it. We'll do it, and then we'll work out. Why we shouldn't be able to do it after we've published it, should we? He's like, won't be able to do that. No, no. I'm adv, am I in? He's like, yeah, okay. Right. I'm advertising it. So, as of then I advertised tps o the Professional Security Officer magazine. And it's at the professional security officer.com if you're interested. And it was designed to be first of all, free which meant we had to produce it online because, you know, paper copies of magazines are just insane to print and distribute

Yoyo:

and old-fashioned, really now when you think about digital Yeah.

Rollo:

Far easier to have something on your mobile device to use as a reference document. And that's pretty what much what TPSO.com is.

Yoyo:

And what sort of, what sort of subjects do you talk about Rollo? What sort of things do you talk about that are really and who's your target market?

Rollo:

Well, it, it is worth saying that I, I was involved in that for probably three years and I was the, the managing editor for probably two of those years. I have had to move away from the magazine to do other things, but I'll target market. I ideally, the demographic was frontline security officers. Now, although there's a around 400 license s i offices there, there probably was at the time, we thought that maybe 10% of those would be engaged career-minded and looking to develop their skills and advance in the industry, which is what the magazine aimed to do. But if you think about it, there's still 40,000 potential readers. And so we set ourselves to target. We sat down and we had a look at other industry magazines and Right. There's a few big players out there, but, we're online. We, are out there making contacts, which is why I started going into the industry. Quick sidebar, just to make contacts to help promote the magazine. I, hadn't been out and about, I hadn't been in the public eye or anything since before 2018. So, I joined every organization, lends a man. I went to every event and shook every hand I could find and slowly started building support for the magazine. So, anyway, I digress. Mike and I thought, right in year number one I'll target readership. We'll make it 5,000. How about that? So combined, that's No. 5,000. Well, I mean, you've got a high profile. You are out there. He decided that I was gonna be the front man for this, by the way his idea, but he shoved me into the limelight. I'm not an extrovert by any way, shape or means, and when it comes to conferences and things, I, I will gladly listen to the speakers and make notes and be fascinated. But when it comes to networking I'd rather find a coffee and stand in the corner until it was time to go back in the function room. I'm not an extrovert, funny by shape or form. But anyway, 5,000 we thought. So we launched the magazine in September, 2018, and we had a look probably in February of 2019. We, we got some great software that had a look at our analytics, and you could either read the magazine online using Flipbook, or you could download it as a pdf. So we thought, well, a simple way to gauge the amount of people that are reading this is add the amount of unique people that download it to the amount of unique visitors that visit the online viewing page, and that's your readership. So we thought, oh, okay. So bit of typing and he's, oh, 27,000. Well, no, Mike, Mike, Mike. We've only started in September. He's got No, I've added those for those. I've got no, Mike. It's the unique ones you need to look at. He said, I'm looking at the unique ones because the return visit are over 500,000. I'm like, oh, okay. So we're doing okay then. Yeah. And I, I don't think he bothered looking at reader figures after that. It just sort of, shot skyward exponentially. And although our target demographic was security officer, frontline security offices, we found security management from all around the world. Physical security professionals from every way, shape and form and sector of the industry used to both contribute and read the magazine. And we had massive support in the uk. We had we got involved early in the Security Institute and we used to support, their C P D scheme and Advertising Institute as a great stepping stone to those that want to network and progress in their careers. And lots of people in the industry, people that, you know, Mike Hurst, I'm now, I'm name dropping. one and only Mike Hursts provided numerous articles over the years. He's good, isn't he? Yeah, he is good. He's good. Bless the top. No, he, he was very helpful. Phillip Ingram, m b e, former Colonel in British Intelligence. Leaving, leaving the military at the rank of per you automatically given an MBE believe so.

Yoyo:

I've interviewed already three MBE's on the Security Circle podcast. That's why I needed to check mbs Great. And he and Philip is great. Yes. Oh,

Rollo:

you know, I, I, Phil, you, you're talking to all these captains of industry and OBE is pretty much the bottom the entry requirement to speak to you. You know, has there been some, some terrible mistake here?

Yoyo:

I, well, listen, just before this meeting, I was on a security podcast pre-chat with a Baroness in the House of Lords who is going to appear on our podcast. So, Ruth, Ruth. I'm, I can't give away any names at this stage. But suffice to say, you will love her. It's

Rollo:

Ruth though, isn't it? No,

Yoyo:

it's not. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But you will love her. Oh, he's so warm and gentle and intelligent and kind, and I just, I can't wait to record her conversation next week. Rollo, tell me, look, we talked about numbers earlier, big numbers around the TPSO distribution, for example, and I get it, it there's a huge market out there that really do wanna be tuned in, plugged into what's going on. You were honored with the ranking of the second position of industry influence of a thought leadership in 2019, the IFSEC global security influencer ship. Wow. I mean, that's significant. I have to say I talked to a lot of recognized global influencers, and the common thing they tell me is that it's, it's quite a humbling experience. How did becoming the second ranked global influencer for 2019 affect you?

Rollo:

Well, first of all, it was very, very strange. The, the chairman of the judging panel was a Canadian chap whose name escapes me. Oh God. What's his name?

Yoyo:

Important to you then? We're getting to the age mo now, where we forget stuff. I know.

Rollo:

The chairman of the judging panel was a Canadian guy and he rang me up at about 11 o'clock at night UK time. And he said, oh, I, I'd just like to let you know that you were nominated for a position on the IFSEC Global Influencers list. I'm like, oh, really? And you've made it onto the list of the top 20 leaders for thought leadership. I'm like, oh, really? And he's gone. Yes. And we've ranked you second in the world for thought leadership. No way. Way. Yeah. Yeah. So I sort of giggled a bit as you do. Yeah. Right. Really. And yeah. I was a, did a lot by the fact that people like talking to magazine editors, people like having their stories published. They like being heard and I guess it does give an editor an element of influence that a lot of captains of industry maybe won't have because they just won't have the profile. So that's not because of any good work I did. It's just because of the type of work I was doing, I think, and I, I'd been involved in other things by then as well. Michael O. Sullivan and I had got together and we thought, right, we need to, we need to take this further and. I think I suggested, we'll, we'll start some kind of membership organization to which he said, right. We, we agreed on a name, the Guild of Security Industry Professionals, and we set up a free to join membership organization for those with S I A licenses, all those in the private sector that could prove via email address that they were working in security for their employer. Mm. So we, we started that organization. Michael Sullivan also started doing research into violence against security officers. We were collating information from news sources, from social media and putting them in the one one place that became a, a resource for media, anyone investigating violence against security. And it was also an eyeopening blog, an eyeopening reference document for anyone who didn't think that the security industry was violent. Yeah. So I'd got involved in lots of things when that came out. Of course, I was extremely honored. And I've got a nice certificate that's up on my wall. When my wife heard that, I've been told the second most influential thought leader that year, she immediately rushed out and went to Clinton Cards, found someone's two year old birthday card, bought it, took the little badge off the front, came back home and gave it to me. Said, there you go. That's your number two badge to show everyone you're in number two. So, yeah, my wife keeps my feet very, very firmly on the ground. Takes a lot to impress her,

Yoyo:

IFPO launches a new app called club. We're launching this new app this week to support members as they prepare for their CPO certification. It was designed in collaboration with urine. The company behind protect UK app. Which has had over 1 million downloads and won lots of awards.

This new app called club. Offers access to the CPO textbook. Almost 200 sample questions along with many other resources and documents. So don't forget to take a look at the F PO club app. Especially if you're thinking about doing the, IFPO CPO certification. Good luck I

Yoyo:

think number two is always the, the next, number one. What do you think roll?

Rollo:

Well, I, in some instances I'd agree, but I think my my career having taken a different turn now I'm very much involved in the private sector and and that is taking up a lot of my time increasingly, and I kind of used to do voluntarily. I'm very big on staff welfare career developments. Been setting up a lot of professional development programs for our, our staff. And generally looking after our people because you and I both know, if you look after your security officers, they're gonna look after your clients. It's

Yoyo:

That's the Richard Branson principle, and it works. And it's just so simple. But look, it's really nice, isn't it, Rollo,, and, it's really nice to know that you are working for a company that embraces all of the key values you have because, you know, they are about adding value to the industry, right? That's remarkable. And not everyone's in a position to do that.

Rollo:

It really ticks all the boxes of integrity and quality that I'd like to see if I was someone buying security services. That may have sounded a bit like an advert for which I'm

Yoyo:

not gonna apologize. No, say it. Say it how it is. You know, we we're not fool in this industry. We know that there are a number of different organizations. We know that everyone's competing for the same market. We know that some are using a very clever narrative and some are using some very real actions. And we're not fools. We know the difference. And, you know, those organizations that are definitely putting the actions in play and are making the real difference they're with really good brand awareness, really good brand reputation. And it's easy to see the ones who are talking the talk, you know.

Rollo:

Yeah, I, I make you Right. When, when, when I first heard about the, the role with Bold Security, I think the, the previous, we we're going back getting on for two years now. I think I've been with Bold. The previous managing director was a lovely guy called Graham Hawkins, and he was all over social media. We used to chat a lot on LinkedIn. We used to discuss numerous issues and we found out that our, our thoughts and ideas were very much aligned. So when he advertised an ops management position at Bold, I rang him up and said, listen, I might like to have a chat with you about this. Yeah, no, give it to me now. Of course. Cause three three, we, three weeks later I was on board. Yeah.

Yoyo:

Cause you basically said, I'm gonna solve all your problems. Right.

Rollo:

Well, no.

Yoyo:

That's not the way to get a job roll. No.

Rollo:

Admittedly, I'm not great at interviews. I, I think I probably said I'd be cheaper than most of the opposition, to be honest. Oh,

Yoyo:

roll. Raleigh. Raleigh.

Rollo:

But anyway, he was a, a lovely guy, Graham, so I went to work for Bold Security and I've loved my time there ever since. Unfortunately. Graham passed away just over a year and a half ago. Yeah. He he rang me up one day to, to talk about an issue I'd had on the site. Said Bye. And he'd he'd be in touch the following day. And then I, the following day, I get a call from our ops director, Kevin McLean, saying Graham passed away completely unexpectedly. And and it was a shock to absolutely everyone, everyone that knew him. He wasn't just a character with bold security he'd been in the industry for, for decades, and everyone loved him. He was a gentleman, and it was his his influence that made me go over to Bold in the first place.

Yoyo:

Well, yeah, rest in peace, Graham Hawkins. Really? Because it's a shame, isn't it? And it's remarkable when we lose one of our own. Even when you look back to the remembrance of Gabby Hutchinson at the incident that happened at Brixton, we are very, very, very good at rallying around. We're a big tribe when it comes to supporting our own through loss.

Rollo:

Yeah, a hundred percent. It, it is wonderful to see the supports and and, and the positive views that come out when there was a problem. Yeah. And it's, yeah, the Gabby was tragic. That still upsets me today. Yes. And the I, I was interviewed by the B B C going off as an aside, a after that incident. They wanted to, because I'd done some door work in the past and I was in the industry, they wanted me to talk about my views when it came to,

Yoyo:

How did you bite your tongue without roll? Cuz I think I would've found it really hard to Mm,

Rollo:

yeah. Well, I, I quickly found out that I was at broadcasting house. They'd give me a cup of coffee and wowed me with their massive news floor and how fantastic everyone was. And I sit down and it rapidly became clear that they were trying to ambush me. They didn't want my opinions on C C T V footage that I'd been asked to analyze. They just sat down and went, oh, we've had this report coming about allegations of door supervisors taking backhanders to let people in, and that's what caused the crush. Which I applied quite simply. I wasn't there. I dunno anything about it. But it, that's an awful thing. And if there has been any kind of malpractice, I hope it's reported to the s i a Yeah. For them to take proper actions. Yeah. And although that was probably a minute and a half of a 49 minute interview I had with them that's the, that's the only bit they could use. Right. Because we were, it, it was horrendous. It was horrendous to look at. It was awful to look at the CCTV footage. What I did see as well, that the public wants because it doesn't fit the security or evil narrative. I did see the aftermath where security were performing first aid on so many of the people that were injured. They'd set up a triage center in the lobby and were working with police and ambulance services to save lives. And they were effective, they were professional. They were doing a superb job. So I know, no, I, I know not what caused the incident, but I do know that in the aftermath, the police, the security officers, sorry, were very professional and their actions saved lives undoubtedly.

Yoyo:

in our industry, we always call like harings of Doo, aren't we? Because we always, you know, say, oh, this could happen, you know, that could happen. And we hear people rolling their eyes going, oh, for goodness sake, you know, it hasn't. But we can't afford to be complacent, can we, in this business at.

Rollo:

No, never. And I, I think complacency is probably a lot of the problem at the Brixton Academy when things, are treated as a box ticking exercise. When the real outcome of failure isn't truly understood. And that's when things can go horribly wrong. And as we all know, if we've been in the industry for any length of time, something at some time, no matter how well prepared you think you are or how many forms you've filled in to say you've assessed risks, and you have business continuity plans that are, are infallible. It's always the unexpected and unpredicted that catches you by a surprise, the stuff that is so horrendous that you wouldn't have ever accounted for it. And these things do happen on a daily basis. They always catch security out and security will always be blamed for failing to deal with it properly.

Yoyo:

I've, I've had many a night where I haven't slept well because, There's a nagging urge for me to do something that I think could be risky if I don't do it. And I love that gut instinct, and I think as security professionals, I think we have that. It's a conscientiousness around, do you know what I'm, I definitely need to do that tomorrow if that, if I don't do that, the consequences are pretty dire for me or for my team, or for the business. I've had to fix negligence a lot, and I've seen it, and I've been very sick of the negligence I've had a pretty thankless career, but not on my watch. Did anything ever go wrong I always tell the story about Me giving Hedon to a client who was working for a major retail distribution center. And you know, these randomizes, these buzzers you have to press to go in and out at, at the warehouse to make sure that you are, you can be subjected to a voluntary search. The randomizer was at 35%. And I went to the client and I said, look, I appreciate we need to get people in and out, but we are finding entirely far too many people in the warehouse that have lighter and matches and with the amount of furnishings and clothing. In this distribution center. I think the risk is too grave and he kind of basically sent me off with my tail between my legs. To be honest with you, he didn't have an appreciation for anything I was saying. There's definitely an element too. I wished I'd been a big Bernie bloke and maybe he'd have believed me more, but I thought, okay, look, done my bit. I've provided the warning. He ended up some weeks later taking another job at the ASOS factory up in the northwest that burnt down. Do you remember

Rollo:

that? Oh, no. Yeah,

Yoyo:

so he was the chief in charge of that distribution center, and I mean, it's all widely publicized now. We are, we're professionals. We're there to give advice. If you ignore it, you ignore it at your peril. We're not there. We don't get satisfaction by seeing it all go wrong. You know, when we've left. But I think people need to listen more. If you could wave a magic wand, Rollo, and change one thing with your magicalness overnight, what would you choose to change?

Rollo:

The single thing. The single problem with business and the way they think about security, security is a drain on the bottom line with no return to the business. Mm-hmm. I think, and I think it might have been Professor Martin Gill that said this in in a thing I went to probably years ago now, but security needs to be and should be viewed as an essential business enabler without which businesses simply wouldn't be able to operate. And if that mindset was endemic in the C-suite of most businesses, then without doubt, that would filter down to management filter out to the general public, and of course, lead to increased respect and reward for the frontline security officers at the very end of the line. just a, a change in mindset. There's a part of you

Yoyo:

that kind of wants to say, do you know what a company, anonymous company, why don't you just get rid of all your security? Get rid of'em all, send them all on vacation. Send'em all on vacation for a month. And then put on social media that you are doing this test to see if you get rid of all your security personnel for a month. You put'em all on vacation. And then, and then just see what happens to your business it's, it's like we all know that everyone would be going down there doing pen tests with tricky umbrellas, trying to get into the IT department. And that, that's how I, that's how I used to do my pen testing. I used to walk into, you know, tall buildings in London with an umbrella that I knew wouldn't collapse properly. And I'd be there saying, oh yeah, I just need to pop in and go and get my car. I've left my car up in the meeting room. The umbrella would be going out and I out like this. It would just be, sorry, me on, but it was my distraction technique. But yeah. That's a really good wish, isn't it? You've said there. I like it.

Rollo:

If only we had a magic wand. If only

Yoyo:

we had a magic. W Before we wrap up, before we wrap up, what makes you wake up every morning, Rollo and say, I love this day because

Rollo:

at, at the end of the day, I'm, I'm still closely involved with the frontline of the industry. I do a lot of training. I visit a lot of sites. I speak to a lot of guys who are out there protecting people in property on a daily basis. I get a massive amount of satisfaction from going to client meetings and having them saying, oh, your team are fantastic. They stopped a, a right wing group from entering a hotel where we're looking after refugees, or they, they dealt superbly with with trespassers the other day. They're polite, they're helpful, they're professional. They've got their head screwed on, and every or, or everything, I bang into my, my team, everything I emphasize to them, when that comes back to me in the way of. Reports, some feedback from our customers, then that always gives me a buzz. At the end of the day, it's all about protecting people and properties so I can go home as do all of my offices. They can look at themselves in the mirror and think we've done a good job. And if nothing's happened during the shift, you don't think, oh, nothing happened today. You think there wasn't a problem today because I did my job correctly and if I can get my security officers to think like that. Then halfway there

Yoyo:

I was, look in the mirror these days, Willow. And I'm like, who's that old bird looking back at me?

Rollo:

You think you've got problems? I look in the mirror, I think, oh my God, it's jab of the heart. What happened there?

Yoyo:

Jab the heart.

Rollo:

I did a, I did a video interview for an organization, a training organization a few weeks ago. And I arrived in their studio and it, I had to park the car it seemed like 150 miles away cuz it was the closest parking to where the studio was. And as I left the car and started walking there was what I can only call a monsoon set off. And there was thunder and lightning and a sort of biblical thing. I expected to see like arcs going past me on KTown High Street. And I'm wearing rubber sold shoes on a nice slippery stone pavement. And I'm very, nearly, very nearly to the collection of, to and dean esque movements on my way to this thing. So by the time I arrive, I'm, you're

Yoyo:

describing to me like a, a roll about to happen.

Rollo:

You know what, I avoided that. I just skills, but I arrived at this. Yeah. You know, it's my super sensitive martial arts balance. I arrived at this interview and I was dripping wet. And first thing I had to do, sit down. I had about three rolls of kitchen roll. I just covered myself in to try and mop up some of this water. And I, I look at the video and I'm stressed. I'm bright red. I'm still, I've still got water running down my face cuz they didn't gimme any time to sit down and cool off. And of course, I had a heart issue a couple of years ago and the reason I have turned into Mr. Bloy is cuz my heart attack left me with a thing called af, atrial fibrillation. Funny heart rate. So I thought, oh no, I had a heart attack. I'll do lots of training. I'll, I'll be running again in no time and everything will be fine. But if I bend over now I can't breathe properly. If I, if I run for a bus I'll end up doubled Dover. So I can't, I can't work out, I can't trade anymore, but I still like steaks. I still like high protein stuff and you know, no, if someone waves a beer at me, I won't turn it down. Let's just say that.

Yoyo:

So how did you, how did you get on at that job interview?

Rollo:

Sorry, John. No, it was the meeting, it was a avid, it was a video interview for oh, video. Listen, I'm very, very important. You know, haven't you heard,

Yoyo:

I just wondered how you, how you got on turning up in that wet state.

Rollo:

I wouldn't have bothered if, if it was a job interview, I think I'd have rung up from outside the office. I said, I'm sorry, I've just been run over or something.

Yoyo:

Leave everyone hanging on going. Did he, did he, did he not? Did he

Rollo:

In retrospect, that's exactly what should done. Yeah. Yeah. Yay.

Yoyo:

Listen, thank you. Well, thank you for your service and it's been a real pleasure just talking about the nitty gritties of security and having a bit of a laugh along the way. Thank you for joining us at the Security Circle. Thank you

Rollo:

for your time. Yoyo