EP 041 Andrew Salkeld: 'Life Is A Four Letter Word', A Special for World Mental Health Day

"All I want is for those out there struggling to know that there is hope. There are ways through the darkest of times. There are ways you can recover and move beyond them.

Most importantly though, for anyone out there struggling, know that you are not alone.

The world can be overwhelming, but you don't have to face it by yourself.

No one does."

Andy Salkeld

just another guy

ANDREW SALKELD

My name is Andrew Salkeld.

I am a Chartered Accountant and member of the ICAEW. I started my career training at PwC and specialising in Corpoate Finance, working on mergers and acquisitions across the world.

Following my move into industry I focused on business intelligence, data and analytics. I worked diligently building reporting systems and tools to increase efficiency and provide timely information to allow leadership teams to make more responsive, data driven decisions.

After numerous industry positions I now find myself as Finance Director at a Leeds based tech company called dscvr, whilst also acting as a mentor and advisor to other start-up and scale-up companies.

I am also a Psychologist, positioning me as one of only a handful of people in the UK who holds a dual qualification as an accountant and psychologist. I help businesses and their people understand the impact of their financing and corporate structure upon their employees.

I hold degrees in Mathematics with Physics, Financial Mathematics and Psychology. 

ANDY SALKELD

I'm Andy.

I live with ADHD with depressive and anxious symptoms. I have been suicidal at three distinct points in my life. The person opposite may look like they've got it together but I really don't!

I shared my story with the world on World Mental Health Day 2018 through my keynote speech, Breaking the Stigma. I was asked to share this story more and more. During 2020, my story was published worldwide by Practical Inspiration Publishing in my first book, Life is a Four-Letter Word.

Deep down I am just a huge geek!

I love board games and computer games. My favourite board games are Tomorrow and Fog of Love. My favourite video game varies, but is currently either Crypt of the Necrodancer or Slay the Spire.

I'm a huge fan of music, particularly ska and pop punk. I have been slowly teaching myself more about it by using

Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

0:15

Hi! This is Jolanda. Welcome. Welcome to the Security Circle Podcast. IFPO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, and we are dedicated to providing meaningful education and certification for all levels of security personnel within our security community. And we want to make a positive difference to our members mental health and well being. And every now and then we feature something quite pertinent really around mental health and well being. We have a very special guest for you today. I found him through LinkedIn. He was a little nudge from an esteemed colleague of ours, Letitia Amenia. He's had a book published. His name is Andrew Salkow. Now, before I introduce him, this is rather unusual. On one hand, he's a chartered accountant and started his career training at PwC specializing in corporate finance, working on mergers and acquisitions across the world, quite a high flying job. But on the other hand he's Andy who lives with ADHD. He has depressive and anxious symptoms and he's been suicidal at least three distinct points in his life. And the person we have today is a combination of both of those people. Andrew Selkowld, how are you? I'm doing quite well. How are you? Well, I'm good. I get my buzz actually being a naturally curious person, just talking to fascinating, interesting people with great stories, because we as human beings, we seek to relate, don't we, ultimately with other people. And we know, certainly in the security industry, just to sort of set the premise really, with a lot of migration from military and policing to security, you know, there's a lot of mental health and well being focus as well within our community. I can only say that I'm incredibly fortunate and privileged to have you, to hear your story and to hear your journey. At the moment, you've got a book out, haven't you? And this book is called Life. I see you're stroking your cat. Mine is lying along the side of my laptop here. They are strange creatures, aren't they, really? You've got a book out called Life. It's a four letter word. Yes, it came out probably about three years ago now, in the middle of the COVID 19 pandemic. Yeah. And that was pretty tough. We're going to talk about COVID 19 and what the pandemic was like for a lot of people. Let's go back to those high flying days. You're on a rail track, right? You are on a predestined journey into, you know,, one of the top six most professional business accountancy firms in the world. What was that Andy like when he started his first day at PWC? Bit of a dickhead, really. Let me preface a lot of this just by saying that I Come from a position of privilege. My parents are together. I had a fantastic education. They fully supported me through it. I know the kind of status and how I kind of got to where I got to and so on is predetermined is kind of. Impacted by the way I grew up, the way kind of I was raised and everything like that. And that a lot of opportunities that presented themselves to me do not present themselves to anyone. So I just want to, I just want to state that very clearly that I understand that my journey may not be fully relatable, but from where I am now. I have learnt a lot about that and it's why I wanted to share the things I did do through the various talks I've done, through the work I've done supporting and promoting positive mental health, both with individuals and in workplaces. But yes, so, when I started my career... I was probably like, I always joke about this, like I was spoon fed arrogance throughout my throughout my teenage years and basically went into the workplace thinking I was the greatest thing there ever was. And this is kind of... This is a reality of a lot of, kind of, high flyers and a lot of, kind of, intellectuals. They're, kind of, top of their class at school, they're going to university and then because they were top of their class they're now with more people who are top of their class and and therefore maybe you're not top of your class anymore. Sometimes you are, sometimes you're not. And then when you end up in the workplace, you are then top of your class, top of your class, top of your class. And suddenly you realize that actually people are more the same and so on. And suddenly the. arrogance and kind of, privilege you've been spoon fed is very kind of standardized, and you're not as special as you believe you are. And I think this is we could debate for days about what it's like with kind of social media trying to teach everyone to be a pop star and things like you know what I mean? Everyone wants to be an influencer on their own thing nowadays. And it was very much a kind of like, you realize. That actually sometimes just having a life is good. But I went in very cocky, very sure of myself, very I'm going to do this. It's going to be great. I'm going to. I'm going to fly. And then life took over. I kind of realized that actually you can't always do that. You're not always going to be the best. You take some knocks along the way. Your confidence gets hit. Loads of kind of things happen. And like, as I describe it now, life happens. Like. There are, you can set the greatest plan out, like you can set the most fantastic plan. This is going to happen by this date, or, and it might not. like we've spoken about this before, but one of the things I did was I looked at kind of national averages across the UK, like where in your life should you have achieved various things by based on averages, obviously everyone has their own individual life. But that are consistencies at the time I was looking at it, I believe it was 26 you get married, at 27 you buy your first house, at 28 you have your first child, 32 you take on your first managerial position in a job, at 42 you take on your first leadership position in a job, and then kind of... All the kind of knock on things happen is this is when your first child has this birthday this bit and like and you can map this out and you can just be like, oh, well, I'm ahead. I'm behind. And whilst we may not consciously do it as I did in this kind of like piece of research that I did, we measure ourselves on expectations of others and those around us. We try to measure where we are relative to each other. And this is something that I was doing a lot when I was younger, and it was something that that ultimately is very bad for you as people. Like, or it was very bad for me. I see it now as being very bad for everyone, because ultimately as weird,, as kind of, like, unique. statement as it is. We are all individuals. We, like, people joke about being like special little snowflakes and stuff like that, but ultimately we are our own people and we do have our own stories and our own journey. And trying to measure yourself against other people is just dangerous, because comparison leads to unhappiness, ultimately. Is this, what was the first sort of rung of the ladder for you then, in what began in a journey of spiralling out of control, what was the first or second kind of momentous time that you thought, I'm losing control of this? So, I was... I was first diagnosed with depression, probably around the time that I was 24, 25. Later on, probably within a couple of years, I was diagnosed with anxiety as well. Looking... I mean, I can sit here now and tell you what actually happened but looking back, those symptoms have persisted throughout my life, or at least through my memory, and now I can sit here having been diagnosed with ADHD, understanding that my depressive symptoms are, were actually a response. In line with ADHD, my anxious symptoms were the hyperactivity associated with ADHD, but in my thought processes, and as a result, like, I understand those a lot better now. But that was when I first had those diagnoses, and at those points you are suddenly like, oh, I'm not healthy. I mean, I was healthy, but yeah, and again, it's strange to say this, but back then we did not have a significant knowledge or difference between physical and mental health. And nowadays I will always say. The single biggest thing anyone can do to promote better mental health is to stop calling it mental health and to just call it health because it is health. Like, as someone who has recently gone through a psychology conversion course and wants to work towards becoming a chartered psychologist, as well as a chartered accountant. The interconnections between the mind and the body are pervasive and the, and you can't really break them apart from one another. And I think if we just called it all health, it would be a lot better for all of us because we need to normalize a lot of the conversations that we weren't having way back when I was first when I was first diagnosed because it, it just wasn't really talked about. Look, we all know that these are great companies to work for. We know that a lot of effort has gone into being selected for some of these big six businesses. But back then in those times when there was less advocating for positive mental health. It must have been harder to talk about how you felt inside. How did you deal with that? Yeah, absolutely. Because you have worked so hard and put your entire life In one direction, and you have spent two and a half to three, maybe four years becoming an accountant going through some of the hardest education that you ever have to do in the most time pressured situation. You do not want to risk anything because those things become your identity, as in I was not. Andy or Andrew Solkeld, whichever way, whichever side, I was the accountant and that, that consumed my personality and it was all the little parts that I would sacrifice of myself to maintain the kind of the guise or the mask of what the, I thought was expected of me. And again, these expectations, they are things I created, not that were pushed upon me. And this is what happens a lot. I've spoken to many people about this and Like, I've worked with lawyers and they talk about how when they go to work, they put on their suit and it's like wearing their suit of armor for the day. They go in, they are a different person when they're in that armor than when they're not. I talk about it, about wearing masks, because it's like putting on a different mask for a different event. Probably because I like playing games like Zelda Majora's Mask and stuff like that. So, so, so for me, I relate it in my way. Yeah, but it was very much a Coping strategy, isn't it? Yeah. And what I have realized now is yes. You can compartmentalize. So you can say, I am this person when I wear this suit, or when I put on the uniform, or whatever. Like, I am a different person then, and that is where that stops. Yeah. But at what point, and this is what started creeping into my life, at what point do you take it off? Is it purely when you are wearing the suit, or does it take time to, like, come down after it's been on? What happens if you need to work later, and at what point have you normalized that new personality as yours? Or maybe even you just don't have the energy to put the mask on anymore. Or to take it off and you're just like, it's too hard to run two different lives and be two different people. And therefore I just have to do one and on one side you have the choice of, losing your career and everything you've worked towards on the other side You have the choice of losing friends and all the people who love you for who you are and That is a place I got to and it's not straightforward either as it's saying losing a career It's not just this throwaway flippant as that losing a career means losing purpose And what we understand when you lose purpose as a human being That is a very dark place for people to be in so losing a career is more It's that you lose more of yourself. So where was your crossroads then, Andrew? And one of the questions I'm going to ask you later, so you can prepare for it, is, you know, at what point would you go back if you couldn't talk to your younger self and what would you say? Where was this crossroads where you thought, oh, it's a, oh my God, shit moment? Well, the, like, This will be a tough conversation. Some people, just before I start this is a warning. This is a trigger warning because I am going to talk about triggers. And we're gonna talk about suicidal ideation and strong depressive symptoms. And... The thought processes that go with them. So please be warned. That like skip it, skip ahead, whatever, but And it's okay, Andrew, because I'll put a disclaimer at the very top end of the podcast as well. But so a lot of this happened life had stagnated. So life had become very, not stale, but There was no excitement that I was working towards. The next promotion was not in sight. The next house move was not in sight. The next, this, whatever aspirational things, whatever the driving purpose is, was not present. And right at the moment where I was at my low with my career and everything and all of that, there was also problems going on with my kind of within my parents and my brothers. Like. Not problems between them, not problems between us, but just they had their own problems going on. So it made kind of communicating with them a lot harder. I'm a big communicator. I am someone that thrives off talking speaking to people and rationalizing my actions through conversation. If anyone is listening to this that has ever met me and knows me as a friend, thank you for having the hour long phone conversations all the time that when nothing happens and you just say okay for about an hour and I go around in circles and then at the end I'm like, cool, I've made a decision now, thanks. Like that's how I work and I didn't have that with my family because they had their own problems that they were kind of going through at the time. And again, nothing bad. I love my family. They love me. We have a great relationship. It was just a really tough time with their careers and everything like that. And just when all these other things in the world, and I believe this was also just coming off the back of. Was it the... I can't remember what year it was. I think it was the 2008 2009 recession. Oh, you're talking about the financial crisis. Yes, the financial crisis. This was like on the tail end of that when basically, but probably the start of the downfall of everything else that has followed it. And yeah, so all of this was going on, like the world just felt like a really shitty place. And right when that happened my partner at the time left, and that was through no fault of ours, through no fault of mine, through no fault of hers. Just as I was going through a mental health journey, they were going through a mental health journey. I will never Talk badly of them. I will never tell their story. That's theirs to tell. It was completely amicable but it just it hit at just the wrong time for me. And I talk about I talk about in my book chapter seven, which is very much I believe the chapter is titled zero because obviously it's a four letter word and it was the end point. And I talk about my seven failures and I had failed. As a partner, I had failed in my career. I had, I'm counting these out cause I can't remember them. So for anyone who's just listening along, I'm counting them on my fingers. I had failed as a son. I had failed as a brother. I had failed as. A parent to my cats at the time, Skye and Roxy, I had failed to my friends and throughout all of this because of my depressive and anxious symptoms because of where I was, I didn't feel anything. I had no emotions because I was numb to it all and that was my final failure. The seventh failure I had failed as a human. Because to me, one of the defining features of us being people and humans is our ability to feel and have emotions and to care and to and to love and everything like that. And I did not have that. And it's hard to hear you say that Andrew, to be honest, I should imagine it will be hard for anyone listening to hear you say that you've had those seven fails that you feel that you've failed that badly because, you know, you haven't really failed. But the fact that you felt like that's quite dark, isn't it? And that is why I always preface this, because we can convince ourselves of things and it is not. And this is where my brain really, my brain, what I was going through, makes a slight logical step that in hindsight is very bad and was wrong and inappropriate, but actually in the time when you feel you have failed in all these ways, regardless of whether you have or haven't, you convince yourself you have, or I convince myself I have you can make the conclusion that you have. You are bringing less, you are detracting from more people's lives than you are bringing to them. And the logical conclusion that the net benefit to society, the world, and everyone you know is that they would be better without you than with you. And it's like, it sounds absolutely horrific when I say it now, having gone through the journey I have gone through, but that is a logical step you can make when you start looking in like grand scheme, like macro, what is the best net happiness for the world and so on. And that is where. I reached and that was a very, like, it's a very tough kind of conversation to have particularly with yourself where you're like, oh, okay. And this is why it's so important to, or I felt after I had gone through. What I went through having made that conclusion, that I had to share it and I had to put it out there for other people. Because if I can make that conclusion as a person who considers themselves a kind of a reasoned, like, individual, like, I, I'm a scientist by kind of, my university degrees, like I, I've studied maths and physics. I believe in You're a genius looking at your record, Andrew. I really am not. I really am not. I like, and you will see this as well. I am just some guy. And no. Mathematics. Mathematics and physics. And what's the other one? So it's mathematics with finance and physics or something. Yeah. Yeah, it's Mathematics with Physics Financial Mathematics. I probably could but I, at the time, I did not want to do that. You're like Matt Damon in A Dangerous Mind, aren't you? You know all those mathematical formulas that go on chalkboards. Well, I have various mathematical formulas tattooed on me but But no, I'm probably more closer to a psychopath than I am a savant. Well, psychopaths have some good skill sets. They're not all bad, and I learned also reading about this that not all psychopaths kill. That is true. But, like, I'm the sort of person that after I've been through what I've been through, I will never overly promote myself. But I never want to buy into my own hype, because as soon as you, for me, as soon as I buy into my own hype, I lose the authenticity of the story and the journey and that's why I will never be out there saying oh my god You have to hire me to give this talk or be on your podcast or yeah Like that's not me like people will resonate with my story and what I have to say if they hear it or when they get introduced to me or anything like that And if I can just spend each day living a happy and peaceful life and Make a small positive contribution to the net happiness of the world each and every day then I will have done More than I ever did previously. I've got a question for you. Yeah You talk about the seven fails And I know that there's a very best intent kind of ideology that if you could take a person who's in that mindset somehow reset them, put them on a holiday in the Bahamas with hot weather and a nice warm sunshine and some good drinks and swimming in the ocean. It can sometimes be misconstrued. I know you can't just give someone a holiday and expect them to change their whole mindset, but is there something to that mindset that it needs a reset? And is there leg room in that? So there's kind of lots of thoughts about this. Ultimately it'll come down to the what I said at the very beginning, we're all individuals and what works for one person may not work for the other. What I will say. As someone who has been medicated for mental health conditions most of their life I like, and I will say this very clearly, medication does help. It may not help for everyone, but in my case it has helped and I would, I will always recommend saying, speak to your doctor, speak to your GP speak to kind of the NHS, whether it's, however it is,, if you are feeling negative symptoms, seek help. Though for the largest part of my time talking about mental health, I could only, I always caveated what I said by saying, I only have lived experience. If you come to me and ask for help, I will only ever recommend you to professionals who can support you from a kind of, from a health standpoint. And I can only comment from that. Now. Since then, I trained as a psychologist and I want to enter the world of providing counseling psychology to support people on an individual level, as well as organizational psychology to help organizations improve the way they respond to this. These are all things I am aspiring to. Medication helps for us individuals that have loved ones that are in situations that. That they are struggling. The one thing I will say, and I've seen this across friends. I've seen this across colleagues is at some point is it comes down to that individual and them wanting help. You can do. Anything you can put them on a holiday. You can send them to these places. You can try to force things upon them and that is not always the best thing to do. Yes. The single best thing that I will always say to people where they have a relative that is struggling is be there for them. Reassure them. Say, you will help, you, you will do what you can, but it's on their terms, because eventually what happens in someone's mindset, and this is why some people may not reach the stage which is where kind of the medication can help them reach the stage, but at some point, people turn around, whether they're depressive, at some point people will turn around and be like, I'm ready to be helped. And if there is no one there, if there is no one that has stood by them to provide help to respond to that, I need help. That's the point when we can lose people. And that's the point that I... firmly believe that what I would do having lived through what I lived through is I would always have my door open and I would always be there should people have a tough time should people need support or just someone to speak to that. I would always make sure that if someone want someone turned around to me and said I need help. I will always answer that and that is why Societies and organizations like the samaritans exist. I have called them at least five times in my life if not more I can't like i've called them that much. I can't remember that like It's an important resource that should be called out but it's why it's why I keep my website up, because there are people that search things, and when they find someone who is a, like, someone who has survived suicidal ideation, et cetera, the... They can contact me and so on and they can find me and speak to someone and I do get messages like it always surprises me when people reach out when people say I've lived through this or I am struggling with this. And I will always be like, let's have a coffee. Let's chat on zoom. Let's do something when people like how we were introduced when someone says on LinkedIn, you should speak to this guy. That's why, that's kind of why I do what I do. Because it is frustrating. It is hard living with someone who is struggling and the, and it can be a challenge, but at the same point, we love these people and. What we want them to know, and this is the heart of it, is that when they need help, when they're ready to start the healing process, that we'll help them through it, and that we'll be there, and that we'll hold on to them and be like, we got you. And so, and it's very similar, isn't it? For other types of challenges like alcoholism, drugs, you know, the individuals got to want to generally make the change. And we know that, a lot of failings in trying to deal with addiction, for example, are because they were forced to try and stop doing something that they weren't ready for. So you've made a really good point there, actually. You're now at this stage where, you know, you think you failed in every single area of your life. How do you come back from that? Well, mine is not the very traditional way of doing that because my journey back starts with an almost end. And this is the the real trigger bit. I did almost kill myself. I was very close to it. but needless to say, it was like minutes away from happening and a text message from from one of my best friends kind of, saved my life in. One of about like it reminded me that even when I felt like nothing when there was nothing about me and that I thought no one wanted anything to do with me It was just a very simple message That reminded me that someone Who I rarely see still wanted to see me, and so on, and it like it was a very simple message. It just read pub Because we meant to be going to the pub in like a week or so and it's very much us and our friendship and so on But one syllable conversations. Yes Yeah Exactly like it's surreal now looking back at it, but that's what it was and then I came back from it and I lived in that state for Of being like, oh shit this almost happened. What do I do? Sort of thing. Obviously, the rest of the car crashes that had happened in my life were still happening. But I was not in a place of ideation anymore. And eventually, I reached a point where I was getting extremely fed up with social media. And seeing, kind of, seeing the kind of, Veiled successes of everyone else. And I put a poster and it was coming up to world mental health day Just as we are coming up to world mental health day now. Yeah And I put a post on linkedin you can probably still find it that was just called breaking the stigma because I was that fed up, I was actually, and I posted it because I was doing a charity event or I was leading up to a charity event where I was going to I was going to stream myself on Twitch cause I'm a big video gamer, as you may or may not know. Like I love playing video games and I was going to stream myself playing world of Warcraft for the launch of battle for Azeroth. It was a pretty bad expansion in hindsight, but hey. I was doing it to raise money for charity mind at the time. And I basically put big post on LinkedIn saying, my name is Andrew Sokol, I'm a chartered accountant. I have done all these things. And I try to kill myself. Far too many people don't say this. So here is the honest truth of who I really am. And because I was just trying to raise money, I was just well, most people on a social media platform, like. We've entered a world of clickbait now, so saying it does not seem that bad, but you need to capture attention. And that felt like a really good way to capture attention. How long ago was this? What year? 2018, I think? Ooh, that's not long ago. I think so. And basically, I said this, and within an hour, I was having phone calls from people who wanted to... Support, then I had phone calls from people who wanted me to stand up in front of audiences to tell my story live. And then it just kind of spiraled out from nowhere. So whilst I should have been trying to sleep ahead of a midnight launch for a video game that I was then going to play for 24 hours. Instead I was basically arranging a load of speaking opportunities and where to go from there. And then I just... shared my story. I stood up in front of people, I had a slide deck of memes that are free and accessible to everyone, that basically just poked fun at everything that we do in society, everything that went on in my life and just told the journey, and then received several standing ovations, and, It went far and above what I thought a silly post of me playing World of Warcraft would have actually ever done. you found a new purpose. You had the, it's almost like launching a business, isn't it? You found the need. The need existed there. It was your need. It was the need of the people who responded. And all of a sudden you carved yourself an incredibly good niche product. And you are the person, you're the commodity that people are buying. And it's just so nice to see that you've got purpose, really good purpose. Purpose that makes you feel good, as well. Yeah, it was like, it's the most accidental business I have ever started. And it was madness. Like, like, I have made several, like, I say several, lots of incredibly kind of, diligent and like professional presentations that have been used to buy and sell businesses and be involved in everything at the highest level of business possible. Yet the one that has generated me the most success is just like 23 memes. Taking the piss out of myself. There are basically four things that are involved in purpose. That, that matter. It's does the world need it? Okay, this is important. Does the world need it? And does it need your version of it? And then it's things like, will people pay for it? Do you enjoy it and are you good at it and so on. And if you can find something that fits those four categories, the Venn diagram of them all kind of. And you'll be able to find this online, quite straightforward. If you can find something that hits all four, that can be your purpose and it'll be great. And there are a couple of things, And what I talk about when I talk about it in my book is, I talk about the places people get stuck. And the two places people normally get stuck are with their hobbies. So these are things they are good at. The, they they're good at, they enjoy they, the world does need them, but they don't know if they can get paid for them or not. And what happens is people are too afraid to take the chance to turn their hobbies into a job because what they fear is that they will give up their They will lose their hobby, but ultimately trying to monetize your hobby is literally like still your hobby at the end of the day, it's still something you enjoy doing, do something you love. Right, exactly. But if you can turn it into a purpose. Then you'll never work a day in the rest of your life. And then the other place people get stuck is is basically doing everything but without happiness. And those are often places where people are kind of career professionals. They've done something all their time, but it is not bringing them happiness. And that's a very different place to go. Because obviously in that situation, you are. Remunerated, you have a livelihood and everything like that, but you do it day in, day out, day in, day out. And it's not something that brings you happiness. And what people try to do in those situations is they try to take what they do and move it to a different location. So in the accounting profession, what happens if people like, I don't like being an advisor, or I don't like this, I'm going to try to be an accountant, but in a sector I enjoy. So, Say someone's a big sports fan and they become an accountant within a football team or something like that. Ultimately, the problem there is you are still an accountant or you are still doing the same job in a different location. And if you did not find happiness from the job in the first place is. Is it ever going to change? It is not going to transform overnight. That's not how life works. And you just keep at it, like, the motivation is hard. I, just recently, post Covid, I really wanted to get myself in shape. I've been in I've been in terrible physical health for a long time. I think many of us through Covid have certainly got arses that look like chairs. I basically was like, okay, all I'm going to do is I'm going to go on an exercise bike for 15 minutes a day. And then after After someone, I was like, well, 15 minutes, like, it's too short. So I then did 30, then I did 45, then I did an hour. And then after doing that over like six months, I then started going to a personal trainer. And then I started doing more and more. And now I'm in the fittest state I've ever been, ever. If I had never started at the small increments that I started at, I would never have built the consistency and the kind of And the story and the journey that would take me to the next step and the next step and it's why things like couch to 5k really work when it comes to physical health, because it's really small steps to get there now. You do a little bit over the course of a over a long period of time and you build consistency and repetition and then you get used to it. And then you start feel like I remem I, I remember the moment when I started feel. Feeling bad not going for not going for an hour on an exercise bike as opposed to feeling bad for going for an hour on an exercise bike. You know what I mean? Like, the mindset just switched. I started feeling worse for not doing the thing that I had been doing. And small changes really do add up. And for anyone out there that is listening to this, that is struggling, keep at it. Like it is hard. This is why people help so much. And by grounding ourselves with the people around us that matter with the people that will support and love us whether it's friends, whether it's family, whether it's partners, whatever way you kind of, you think about it. Those people are the ones that will keep us going when we do not want to keep going. And it's finding those people that will. that will help you on your journey. Listening to you today, definitely you've got that point across incredibly well, beautifully well, actually, because it is about an individual journey. I think there is a generalism that is viewed, certainly, that perhaps people who have suicidal ideation are weak that they are low in resilience. And I think what you've demonstrated in your journey is a classic example of Why you weren't weak because you don't go through university doing all the degrees you did and clearly have a smart journey ahead of you and become very successful being recruited for, one of the top six. And, you were in a particular field that was incredibly well sought after, so you were successful. You're not an individual that's got low resilience. So I think your story is dispelling a lot of myths that I think people who can't understand suicidal ideation can certainly come to terms with the fact that, okay, it's not that generalization. It isn't a quick fix. It's a tough journey and it's little steps and it isn't about being weak and it isn't about having. Thank you. Low resilience. I like this will be a hot take I am not a fan of the term resilience I think the strongest thing anyone can do ever is to say I need help because that is admitting a flaw in yourself That is admitting that you are not capable of doing something alone and I think that is far stronger and far more resilient because You will go further and do more over a longer period when you are seeking external help pull you along, push you along, however it is. I do agree that people like can be like, people are can be more resilient and so on in that some people can cope with stress better from a pure psychological perspective. Some people's bodies are able to manage and process stress better. That, those are kind of scientific facts and things like that. I think what I would say is don't think of yourself as not being resilient if you need help. Because, if you need help, the worst thing you can do is to not seek it. The strongest thing you can ever do, for yourself, is to say that you need help, and that you are ready to be helped by someone else. And, there are countless people, for whatever reason, and, I know this, like, I can only speak from this from the kind of, as we said at the beginning, the toxically masculine perspective of I can't talk about my feelings, I can't talk about help because I need to be a strong provider and blah, blah, blah, and all the things that got hammered in when I was a child. Looking at how the patriarchal society doesn't support men, you know, and compels men to fit an ideology of being masculine, strong, handsome, and virile and successful, you know, and therefore, if you don't fit that kind of patriarchal society you're different. I think it's more about that. As someone who doesn't fit any of those things I would disagree. I'm looking at you disagree as someone who doesn't fit any of those things. I would say that actually like, yes the messaging the wording, the thought processes are backed. And I think a lot of things are, and again, I will not slight anyone, but I think. A lot of the problem comes from the media and social media these things are reinforced by the things we have created to reinforce them. And this is why I will always say these are my views. These are my thoughts. Because I came off. all social media if it wasn't for That message directly tagging me on linkedin that went through as an email in my inbox saying blah blah blah about this I would not have responded because I do not pay attention to social media at all but I have it flagged that if someone tags me with a with anything connected to my work in mental health that I would do it, and the only way people start seeking change is by seeing other change... Which is why I was like, I'm just going to speak out because if I don't speak out who will like it's the very much the be the change you want to see. And I believe I can't remember the exact science on this. There's a very interesting I think it was a, I think it was a TED talk by Simon Sinek. I think it was Simon Sinek. Anyway he's one of my favorite kind of authors and speakers. And he was saying that actually to change a society, assuming a one to one Change in people's in one person converts another person Because it was all to do with change management within organizations. You don't actually need to transform a hundred percent of the population you only Because at either end of your bell curve, like everyone knows their normal bell curve or normal distribution for scientists everything like that. Because of that, there's kind of 5 percent at either end that are dedicated, they're either 100 percent into the change or 100 percent out of the change. You know what I mean? The cynics. The firm cynics. Then there is a 45, 45 percent of people before you reach the halfway self propagating mark. And what you actually need to do is I believe you need to convince, I think it's it's in the like 22 percent mark. I think it's like 22 to 27 percent where if you can change the minds of that many people and then that many. plus the firm believers already, takes you over the 50 percent at which point it self propagates within within a closed ecosystem such as an organization. If you can convince those people, then you can change a culture, then you can change a society. And I found this really fascinating because I was like, okay, I do not I, as an individual, I'm never going to change the way organizations work. I'm just not, because I'm one person, and I can maybe... And I can do a little, like, I am one compared to like hundreds of thousands, et cetera, et cetera, in each case. But if I speak out, and then that causes one or two or three other people to speak out, and then those convince, and those convince, that's when you can have meaningful societal change. And that's why, if there is anyone listening, that likes what I say, believes, Actually, yeah this is how we do things live by the change you want to see, because if enough people see you living that change and are convinced by you doing it, then it can become self propagating and culture, society, et cetera, can change if you don't, it's almost never going to happen. And it's a brave space to be in, to be honest, a brave space, indeed, because that requires a real leaning in and individuality. And that's why I say like doing this stuff, like seeking help is strong. It is brave and it is meaningful. And then standing out and being different. You we talked in the pre chat didn't we about how we think you've definitely impacted other people's lives. Sometimes it can happen at the times. You don't really expect it to yes, so I have been made aware like, I am always so cautious about sharing stories and stuff like that. I've been made aware of a couple of instances where where my conversation with people sharing my story has either saved a life from someone that was suicidal themselves or from someone who was bereaved because of a suicide and in both ways lives have been altered for the positive I had never appreciated just how much change that I was making or that I could make and Stuff like that just keeps me it keeps me honest about these things like We never know the impact we're having and it's why I will always make sure to say Thank you for anything. That's positive. Even if it's not positive it comes back to the point where I said earlier It was a small point but it matters about how I want to leave each day knowing i've made someone's day Just that slightly bit better If I continue to put net positive happiness into the world eventually The world will end up more more happy. And if I can just do that, however. I will keep doing it and so on and so back to my question earlier, then if you could go back and speak to yourself, the wise man that you are now, what would you go back and say? And what age would you say it? Yes. I've had a hard journey. But if I did not have the hard journey and if I did not have happened to me what happened to me Then I would not be the person I am today on this podcast. I would have told my younger self, probably early teens, to seek an ADHD diagnosis then. Not that I feel... It would drastically change my life, but because having a label in some instances and being able to control the thoughts the ADHD prevent, like limited me from controlling and so on. I feel that would have led me to a more kind of stable whilst I would not be the person I, who I am today, I could have been a greater person had I had control of all those things a lot younger. Or just maybe not suffered quite so much, because you've had a journey of suffering. Whilst I will say I have suffered, I also appreciate that I have suffered in possibly the most privileged sense possible. You know that you can't feel and shouldn't feel guilty for your privilege. All you have to do is put it to amazing use all the time. That's all you do. You don't feel guilty about having it. That is, it is something that I do to keep myself honest and to keep everything I say and I do with the same amount of meaning that it means to me, because the very fact that I'm here, the very fact that I can share my story, the very fact people want to listen to it and to buy a book. One last question then before we finish, what's next for you? I'd love to write another book. I don't know what it'd be about, but. Like the joke was always I'll call it love is a four letter word and talk about my distinct lack of self love at one time but equally, one of the things I've always thought about in writing is I always wanted to do a very matter of fact a whistle stop tour of kind of science and psychology where it's, I get to talk about the things I love, which is big science, big psychology, and just, Share something that I find full of love and joy and exploration and happiness and to help people kind of learn and become better versions of themselves along the way. Brilliant andrew. Thank you so much for being a guest on the security circle podcast Thank you very much for having me. We in fact, you never saw once, Andrew. We had this huge conversation beforehand about how you like to drop the f bomb and you never swore once. We will obviously put all of your links and the link to your bio and your website as well. So yeah, all the best. Thank you very much for having me.