EP 042 Kate Brassington Trauma PT2 PTSD, Suicide, Responses to Trauma, Gender and Neurodiversity

BIO

Kate is a Coaching Psychologist, Trauma-Informed specialist, and British Psychological Society Graduate Member (GMBPsS). She actively destigmatises real mental health, and brings practical wisdom from the field of trauma to life. She helps leaders and managers faced with delivering sustained high-performance under pressure to achieve goals – but not “at all costs”. 

Unlike many coaches, Kate has learnt to work WITH trauma, because she knows whether acknowledged or not, it is present all around us. Trauma isn’t only what most people think it is (the event, that happens to us), but is instead a reaction (what happens inside of us). This is why two people can be in the same event, one gets traumatised, the other bounces back.

This gives space not only for the Big traumas that people experience in events, but the background chronic traumas such as racism, sexism, bullying, that happen all  around us… and indeed mini exposures that add up over time such as those experienced by First Responders – these together add up to chronic trauma.

Kate began working life as a British Army Logistics officer, her first command age 21 was of 50 people. She has since worked in public and commercial sectors, and as an Expert Witness on Employability after injury. Her own trauma occurred giving birth to her first child and sparked a career change into positive psychology and traumatology that she will never regret. She runs her private practice from Luxembourg, working with 1:1 clients worldwide.

You can continue the conversation with Kate on LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/kate-brassington and read more about her work (and listen to her podcast Moving Beyond Trauma) on her website: https://katebrassington.com/

Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

Yoyo: 0:15

hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. IFPO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers and we are dedicated to providing meaningful education and certification for all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference to our members mental health and well being. Now, I have, a lady who's making her first return to the Security Circle podcast. And I say this because we really covered so much in episode one. We covered the origins of trauma, why trauma is icky to talk about, and a bit of the groundwork around the theories and ways to talk about trauma. Before I talk about this episode, let me introduce you to Kate Brattington. Thank you for joining us today. Thanks Hello. Thank you. Thank

Kate: 1:02

you for having me back. It was really fun when we met the last time and we did the recording and then when we finished, we were just like, Oh, but look at all the stuff that we didn't talk about. As far as I'm concerned, it's as if there's been no time passed. It's as if we just finished recording the last one because these things are really connected. So please, if you didn't get part one, there's a lot of groundwork in there, and I want to make it easier for you to get the gold out of this process. episode. So I'm just really inviting everybody to go back to part one if you haven't. I'm a coaching psychologist and a trauma informed coach. I'm registered at the British Psychological Society as a graduate member. And all that kind of blah, blah, blah qualifications and, you know, all that good stuff is. It's really important when I'm working in deep psychological connection with other people, but it isn't really the fire behind why I do what I do and why I do what I do is to ease suffering and get the fun back.

Yoyo: 1:58

I didn't think we could have such a lot of fun and joy talking about such a very dark and troubling subject, but that's the energy that you bring to this piece, Kate which is why I think. It was worth doing it properly. Now that we've kind of set the groundwork, this episode is to look at the takeaways, the more practical help people can receive today, perhaps, if they're concerned about themselves or a loved one or a team member at work or a family member, what are the big mental health issues people are facing today? We realized at the end of episode one, we didn't cover the diversity space. We didn't cover neurodivergence and we didn't cover the suicide journey. Because it is a suicide journey if you're living with suicidal thoughts and PTSD. So that is what's coming up. So Kate, brace yourselves. Where should we start? I know. Look we've looked at why mental health is icky, but let's talk about mental health now. It's a safe space. We're going to be very open. There are lots of different types of mental health. There are very traditional types of mental health and more modern ways of looking at mental health. Let's start there.

Kate: 3:05

Great. Why do I do as a coach, like you're like, what is a coach doing talking about trauma? Why do I work with people who are first responders who've experienced complex trauma, who've experienced. Childhood abuse, you've experienced life threatening illnesses, deaths of loved ones, you know, the whole trauma space is full of these kinds of experiences. What am I doing as a coach in there? Surely that's the realm of therapists. And I really strongly advocate that the world of coaching needs to get up to speed. We need to update ourselves. One, there aren't enough therapists to go round. And the statistics are, like, they're shocking but not surprising. So there's a World Health Organization study that was done worldwide in 2016, before the pandemic, huh which showed that 7 in 10 adults have had, worldwide, have had one exposure. To trauma, and there's all these like definitions of what is a traumatic event and it's all listed and written down in black and white, mainly for the countries in the world where they have a diagnostic system that's paid for by paid for insurance. So it's got to have a diagnosis got to have a name on it. And that's the main reason why there's such a focus on, well, what is your diagnosis is because we need to know those things. But when we look at what causes drama, it's not the event, because two people can be in the same event. You could be in the same car crash together, but one person experiences negative sequelae, they experience traumatization, and another person doesn't. And so what's very interesting to me is those seven in ten that the World Health Organization say have exposure to trauma, you're really looking at only around nine percent that get a diagnosis of something like PTSD or a mental health injury or illness that requires treatment. And if you think about statistics worldwide, you've got high levels of trauma exposure in countries where, I mean, not all of us have, you know, work in the police and can go and get access to occ health. Do you know what I mean? So it's, you've got to see these kind of statistics with that kind of you know, buffer of realism. But what that says to me is that, that, that means there's huge numbers of people out there in our workplaces, in our schools, in, on the bus and train and tram around you, in your family, in your environment, everyone has got people around them who are carrying some level of trauma exposure. And whether that has resulted in a trauma response is a huge gray area. And so what I say in the coaching room is that it's there anyway. I'm just going to go from the point of view that trauma is there anyway, acknowledged or not. How can I coach in a trauma informed way? How can I help the whole world to come up to speed with what's the magic of being trauma informed? Why are we bothering anyway? And it's because I hold this view that it's all around us.

Yoyo: 6:04

And for some people, you know, when someone's broken a leg, you can see that they have a plaster and you can say, Hey, how's things. But people are still quite uncomfortable to ask how someone's mental health journey is going, because you kind of think, okay, they haven't said anything about it. Maybe everything is good. And then you don't hear from them a while. And then you think, I'm going to check in. And, you know, for those people who've been in the military, for example, let's talk about communication. For those people who have been in the military, you do things like SITREP, you know, how's things going? You do welfare check and you can make a little fun of it. Hey, I'm just checking in on you. How's things going? And I think. Whilst you don't want to be too much of a pain or a persistence, you also kind of need to hover in the periphery, don't you, to say, look, I'm here and I'm going to touch base with you from time to time. Is it about entering into an agreement with the individual to say, look, I want to touch base with you. I don't want to overdo it. What's best and how can I do that knowing that I'm looking after both of us at the same time? What do you recommend?

Kate: 7:03

I think it's a really great question. What can I actually do? And I think when you take the view that trauma is not what happened to you, it's what happens inside of you as a result, then that takes the onus away from discussing the, all the conditions, environments, battlefield disasters, all of that other kind of stuff. And instead going, what is happening inside you? And so we're turning our awareness and our attention to The lived experience inside the person that we're supporting or that we're just coming alongside of. You don't, you're not necessarily always in a support role. You're just saying hi to your friend in the water cooler. You know, it's, these are micro mini moments. But when we are able to open up and you don't just say, how are you, or at least often I end up asking it twice. So you're like, how are you? And you go, fine. They go, and actually, how are you? Like, how are things? And so there's like a slowing down and a re permissioning of there's permission to actually give a real answer this time, or to... So you looked a bit I don't know, tired, stressed, or you mentioned something's happening, you know, you're connecting in you're alive to something that the person is telling you is going on. Should we have a bit more of a chat about that? Would that be helpful? And I think this is the lovely thing is when we're turning it, you're not. As a first responder and a mental health first aid scenario, you're not actually coming up with anything other than a supportive environment that you're asking questions. What would be helpful to you right now? Would you like to go and get a coffee? Shall we take a little turn outside? And that's an offer.

Yoyo: 8:43

I got in touch with somebody recently who I know struggles a lot with their mental health and for very valid reasons. And it'd been a while, you know, and I realized we hadn't connected, we hadn't shared any communications at all. And I just thought, you know what I'm at fault here because I haven't touched base. So what I did was I orchestrated a meeting for us to have a coffee catch up. And I didn't mention anything about mental health, not one thing. I just literally thought, you know, it was almost a little subversive the way I wanted to check in with them, but not to make it a big thing. And I thought this is going to be really interesting because if they bring it up, then I know it's going to be super cool to talk about. And if they don't bring it up, I think it's great that we found a really good way to connect catch up over a virtual coffee. And I think that person might not realize that I've done that, but it will be nice for them to look back and think, Oh, that was me finding a way to begin that conversation. And I think there's lots of clever ways we can do it really without making the whole subject about mental health. It's about being kind, isn't it? And it's about being there for people.

Kate: 9:53

Yeah, absolutely. And I think I like cheerleading people who are having these conversations to encourage you to ask the question a little, like you can say, by the way, You know, how are you? And by the way, I do mean, how are ya? With a big smile or whatever. Just so the person goes, oh she's really interested. She's up for that deeper conversation. Because sometimes we're aware that other people are carrying their own shit as well. And so you might be thinking to yourself, well, I don't want to tell her all about this stuff. It's not because it's not there. It's just because we're, you know, you're carrying that level of self awareness. So I think making those little signals and using it in your own language is really important. Everybody's got their own style, you know, and just having your, finding your own way to make it clear to someone that you are open for a bit more of a conversation, I think is really. such a positive step. They talk in the, in this sort of like, why is everyone trauma informed? You know, like, why is there a big hoo ha about it? And I think some of the stuff that's coming out of America particularly is really interesting. It's like categorizing it into four R's. So I love a thing where you've you know, got a mnemonic or whatever. Lovey, Ness, I've got my pen ready. Got your pen. Yeah, get your pen out. So the four R's there's various different ways of doing it, but I love this one. Particularly realization, recognizing, responding and resist re traumatization. So don't worry I'll go over them again. But this realization is the first one, the one that I opened with in this conversation, which is just realizing that it's all around us. It's a natural nervous. You need to listen to part one to really get like, how come I, you know, this is a natural nervous system response to times under pressure and under extreme pressure or under micro pressures that all add up. Either way, we've only got one nervous system and it's going to respond in a certain way. And if you've reached your boiling point, if your stress container is over full, or if it's an overwhelming in whatever way experience for you, trauma is all around us in that way. And that's this realization part. The second one is recognizing, and that's a real interesting one for us as work colleagues, buddies, mental health professionals we're just Eyes open. The fact that is someone, people don't come into work and go, Oh, I'm, I, well, they may or may not depending on the language. I don't find people often going Oh yeah, I'm actually feeling, you know, kind of five out of 10 depressed today and a little bit, you know, the people don't talk to this clunky language. Right. What they probably will say is, I'm really tired at the minute. I think it's the weather. Not sure what's going on. Mother in law got up my nose at the weekend, whatever, you know. Ah, so stressed. I'm feeling so stressed. So that's coming into common language a lot. And so when we're on the recognizing part of the four Rs, it's just like recognizing this is the person raising the subject. This is them talking about it and to recognize and hold space for the, like you were saying, you know, so how do you make, to go, oh right, so you've not been sleeping, is that happening a lot at the minute? And you're asking a question, you're curious, you're not going, oh yeah, well when I went to sleep, what I had to do was, and you start solutioning, because that's not, this isn't a trauma informed, it's really important, it's who is doing the informing?

Yoyo: 13:20

It's interesting that you mentioned, we'll come on to responding in a second, but it's interesting that you mentioned solutioning because there are natural people out there, and I have many of them within my security circle They are fixers. They fix problems, you know, they reassure and they fix problems. So it's instinctive for them to say, well, have you thought about doing this? Have you tried this? And I did this and it worked and it's so hard. You have to really go against all of your natural instincts and not talk and listen.

Kate: 13:49

Yeah. Yeah. I always say to people, the best training of all the frankly, well, lots of thousands of pines worth the training that I've done. The best was a six week course in the local tech called Basic Listening Skills. And it was brilliant. We didn't learn any techniques for, it was an intro to counseling back in the back before I began my counseling training. We just learnt how to listen. And some people find it really hard, because you want to advise, and you want to mentor, and you want to shortcut their learning curve, and you love this thing that was really hard for you.

Yoyo: 14:26

You don't do it because you know, you're being an arsehole, you're doing it because you really want to help someone. It's like that thing that parents do, isn't it? And they say, you know, don't do this, don't do

Kate: 14:35

that. Oh God, you sound like really a right nag. Oh, I

Yoyo: 14:38

think, oh my God, my, my mom used to do the same thing to me and now I've become that person. You can't help but impart your wisdom on somebody else who you perceive doesn't have it.

Kate: 14:48

well I think and that is us going on to the R of respond, really, which is that there's lovely ways to respond and it doesn't require you to know anything the expert on the situation in this situation is the person. It's not you. And that takes a lot of pressure off us as supporters, as helpers, is that we're, whereas perhaps it's exactly as you say, you've come from military, police, first responder, these, you know, backgrounds where you are expected to know. And this is a really different environment where you're actually not expected to know. The person is the expert on their stuff. And that's what I love about bringing that and bringing it into the realm of coaching is that client is the expert on their life. I'm the expert in a whole load of theory and, you know, blah, blah, and how it all fits together and holding space for these conversations, but the client is the expert, and this is a massive thing in trauma informed anything, education. workplaces, health care, old people's homes, like all of this. How do we do operate this in a trauma informed way? And the first question is who's doing the informing? Is it a doctor telling us and diagnosing us and or the social worker? And so many people are that it's a spoken for community. And I think we talked about this in the part one. It's no. Where is the voice? Where is the. How do you feel today? What is it like for you? How could I help? What would be helpful for you right now? What would you like? All of these are open questions with asking the person to say, and that is a beautiful response right there.

Yoyo: 16:21

I think a lot of people certainly... I have experienced people coming up to me and saying, Hey yo, how would you phrase this? I don't want to, I don't want to cause offense or what's the phraseology I should use to describe this, especially if it came to neurodiversity or how would you approach this? I don't want to offend. I don't want to offend. It's this temperate stage. It's almost left of bang that people are at in the workplace right now, because the narrative is changing so fast to become healthier. That is almost a moving feast and people can't really stay in the moment and recognize what safe language is and what safe language isn't. And I don't mind if people get it wrong, but as long as they're open to understanding why what they've said is wrong and why there's a better way of saying what they need to say. So that's my general attitude. Get it wrong, but be open to understanding and learning. It's difficult, isn't it? Especially around mental health. You get a lot of people that say you know, yeah, I kind of figured something was not right. I just, I didn't know how to approach it, and this person's gone through a realization journey. This person's seeing red flags and I've had other situations as well where people have said to me, look I recognize he had PTSD. I the quote was, I have PTSD. I could see certain traits in this individual. a colleague, professional colleague. So I took him aside and said, Hey listen, I told you a little bit about me and where that's come from. And this person now is going through a whole enlightened journey because he didn't realize the dark room he was in that had a door and it had a light on

Kate: 17:53

the other side. Yeah, that's so magical. I think you meant is that the one you mentioned towards the last of that. Yeah, I think that's really the where we're all just guiding each other home, this really compassionate space, and sometimes. It can go both ways. So we're talking courageously holding space and making it possible for people to talk to us about these things. But also there may be times when you know that you can't. You can see someone might be what you think is struggling or, and you're thinking you're not in a good place yourself. And that then it's okay to know that you're not going to open your door to carry a shoulder on a bear thing as well as your own thing but there's still other ways that you can perhaps generate some help or support so it doesn't always fall to us. And I think that's a really compassionate message for those of us who sort of take on that first responder message in a major way. Like I'm on the scene. I have to. Sometimes with mental health. You think to yourself I know I can't do this right now, but here's what I'm going to do instead. So I do think there's a permission around that.

Yoyo: 19:00

Jimmy Carr came up with a really good quote. I want to see what your opinion is on this. He's a very clever guy and just off the record, Kate, if you haven't seen the Stephen Bartlett's diary of a CEO with Jimmy Carr, I would recommend it. He's obviously clearly one of the funniest guys on TV and quite risque, but you, this is a whole, this is him. This is not the funny man. This is the clever man. He's a very clever man. He said, sadness and depression, they're parts of life go with sadness. It's circumstantial. And I think it's okay. Isn't it to say we are sad because there's a huge difference between understanding the light touch that sadness has in one's life. And the circumstantial element that really does connect with depression.

Kate: 19:48

Yes there's a quote by, I won't now, we're all getting into quotes after a while, I think it's Liza Palmer. And she says anger is sad's bodyguard. Which I love because often and when we talk more about a toxic workplace and how do these like ne the negative behaviors show up in an awful lot of ways and you've got a toxic person at work. Well, we're also turning some compassionate lens towards them and thinking, what on earth is happened to you or is happening with you that you might be like this? And the bodyguard part of us that steps forward, the protector is the anger often because it's protecting us and underneath is sad. So that's where I went with that sadness and depression are parts of life and sadness is circumstantial, but sadness is often. It's too sad. It's too soft. It's too raw. It's too close. It's a gentle, vulnerable, quiet place inside. And often it finds other parts of us stepping forward, which can be anger. So if we're in safety via action, that could be your anger or your flight, you're going to escape. But it, but the depression, when you get depression alongside, Sadness, and it's still stepping forward to protect, but it's doing it in the safety via disconnection. It's disconnecting you from feeling. It's not allowing you to, it's the system, the nervous system's way of helping you not feel the pain. Yeah, what do you think with Jimmy Carr's thing with that sadness is circumstantial. Do you mean he's meaning like it might pass. It's a circumstance that caused it or what's

Yoyo: 21:33

I took from that a quite a light bulb moment really in the sense of depression should be recognized as very serious because it's tied to something circumstantial that is usually out of control in our lives and it's inflicting a huge deal of suffering and pain and depression is the way that we describe that. But sadness is something that's transient. Yeah. Okay. some people could feel sad losing the job. Some people could be depressed losing their job. So it can both lean itself into both, but I think if I focus. on the origins of where this meant something to me is because I have a lot of people saying in life and on TV or whatever, Oh, I'm really just depressed at the moment. And I just think really, you just a bit sad, you know, because depression is really serious and please don't take away the real deep meaningfulness that depression has. In a relationship with somebody that just being a bit sad isn't being depressed and I think he's drawing the difference between sadness being momentary, easy to cope with something that's part of life we move on we learn, but depression is something that's. Deeply connected to something quite significant in one's life, and we should recognize the difference between the two.

Kate: 22:46

Yeah, I think it's really powerful to have the even these kind of conversations like where, you know, and you've just demonstrated really artfully, here's a quote. So if you're meeting the friend for coffee or this kind of way and you've got this quote and you're interested in the meaning you find it and the other person's finding a meaning in it. I've not had to share anything really deep from myself and neither have you, but we've both been able to have quite a meaningful conversation. I just wanted to really capture this is a lovely, you've just done it, a lovely example of a way that might work for some people to hold, yeah, hold space for, to curate, to host these conversations. what you were saying though, it's really interesting. I think that society, we're afraid of depression, just as we are afraid of anger, we're afraid of the more anything that's extreme in the nervous system response Menu, if you like, we have only got three major responses. And if we get to the extreme end of those which we've the background to which is definitely in the part one of this conversation but when it goes chronic so to just dissociate disconnect. to get safe because you're in the jaws of the lion or the crocodile or the attacker or, you know, there's the environment where we are by necessity being shut down and that's going to save us from the pain of the event, it's going to stop us remembering it in a certain way and it's going to help us, like the cortisol, the adrenaline, all those things are going to flow to help us numb, to help us not to feel. That's really effective. And it's natural first aid that happens inside the body and the nervous system. What we're talking about when someone is, and it's in our modern language, our current language, particularly in the West, it's like this idea of depression is. Where that reaction's got stuck and it stayed chronic over a long term for reasons that might actually have got kind of lost along the way, you know, the body and the mind therefore hasn't really remembered why you're depressed, why you disconnected in the first place. Either because you need to take some time to go back and unpick that work, which is definitely your therapy kind of counseling. It's, again, nothing is wrong. And this really, I move so strongly away from the pathologizing of this. There is nothing wrong with having a major event really caused you significant mental disturbance. That's absolutely that's how the thing is supposed to work, but, it's the bringing you back. It's how do you recover and bounce back? What's helpful to you? So I think that often when someone has got. in our modern world to the stage of saying that they're depressed. It's often because there's something deeper down that has not been able to be addressed. And when you're, this is the thing with like my first responders in particular, but anybody really who's in like a new standard Western working world, it's really hard to get. a space where you can stop your brain from doing all the day to day work and all the other things you're going to do so that you could concentrate on whatever it was that happened in the past. That's a luxury that is not available to most people. Do you know what I

Yoyo: 25:51

did? Do you know what I did? I realized I needed space from the screen. Space from juggling lots of different ways that I get distracted every day. You know, I lose count of the amount of times I pick up my phone with the intention of doing something quite simple, like looking out the weather tomorrow and then getting sidetracked and being on Instagram for half an hour thinking, Oh my God, what did I come on here for? And I know that other people will be resonating with that massively. Even in the workspace, a text message interrupts an email, a chat. There's so many distractions and I feel for our younger generations who are literally growing up in this climate. So I find ways to deliberately switch off and I make things with Lego. Obviously, not kiddies Lego. I use proper adult Lego. And it's just nice getting away from the screen, doing some problem solving, because you know, the adult Lego is not easy. And I've been making things like Lego sewing machines, Lego typewriters, and yeah, some of it's quite technical, and it's constructed quite technically with I have a lighthouse with a moving light with a little winch, and you have to put all of the mechanisms inside. So yeah, and then. And then I understood having chatted to somebody else that they really do encourage kids to use Lego in therapy because it's a way for them to literally block out everything else. And I'll have to say, if you haven't tried it and you're, and you need a way to get away from the screen time. Give it a go. It's phenomenal. There's some great kits on Amazon.

Kate: 27:27

Well, going into a little bit of this practical stuff about how can we manage ourselves when we're faced with a chronic stress, chronic anxiety, chronic depression doesn't really like the levels of severity. And it's not kind of so much what I'm speaking to here, but more just that it's long term. We're not designed, the modern day human. is, like we talked before, is evolution is very fresh onto this. We're designed for the event to happen and to pass and to move on, that we move so much more that, growing as humans evolved on the plains and in the caves and hunting on the savannas and all of those other, metaphors, like we are not designed to be sitting still. with our thoughts occupying our head all of the time. And if we had experienced a very shocking situation, you would then still be walking back to the tribe, building your fire, doing all this manual labor just to stay alive for the next day. And that in itself is very therapeutic and releasing effect on the system. It allows energy to move. through, which is a lot of the Peter Green stuff and the somatic experiencing stuff of why a lot, thank goodness is coming through in the world of therapy and the world of psychology is to really understand the connection between the body and the mind and how we can really tune into this. So when you're legoing, your mind is accessing a different part of the mind and you're using your body as well. Yes. You're still sitting still. So the same with someone's coloring with mandalas or is doing painting or anything with your crochet it's not hard, although it's interesting that you enjoy the, there is some, so you could say crochet is not hard. Actually, I can't crochet. So crochet is hard, right? You know, whatever level we do these things and we find them a little bit of a challenge that's a flow state, you're describing a flow state there. It's got slightly like a computer game is. is your brilliant example of how to create a flow state because you've got lots of nice, basic, repeated actions. But also something that gets a little bit harder each time, but not too hard because that would shut you down and not too easy because that'd be boring. Yeah.

Yoyo: 29:28

I've got a question for you. Let's take the work scenario and we've gone through the realization and we understand now that we can easily spot somebody that's showing red flags for mental health and we have discussed communication styles and how that can be approached and how those two people can enter into a contract, a psychological contract of safety to talk about it. But look. What's harder, I think, certainly for me, certainly for employers, line managers is when they're managing somebody with mental health challenges. And there's this feeling, because I've experienced and I've had discussions around it, where You know, you feel that person is literally on a tightrope, it's the best way to describe it, where the slightest thing is going to topple the equilibrium that they are currently in, that comfortable status quo, where we can pretend everything's okay. But deep down, you know, it makes in a work environment, or even professional environment, having difficult conversations very hard, it makes sustaining. a line manager employee relationship very hard. It makes team relationships very hard. If everybody else is on eggshells and all of a sudden the normalcy that we all do crave in work isn't there, or it's a, is there's a perception of normalcy, but we all know it's a fake one because we don't want to upset the status quo because that one person could genuinely, you know, topple over the resilience is very low. And that's the situation we're finding now being discussed in work environments. That's tough. I mean, that's hard to manage because you want the individual to feel supported and everyone will be kind. That's completely given in this conversation, but there is a realization to use that word that. This is a long haul game and it takes a lot of people's energy and the capabilities aren't always there and the resilience isn't there either. Have you come across

Kate: 31:28

this? it's the scenario you're describing and I really like the way you've drawn out the that it's long haul. And the person is more likely to be in work than not. Yes. Because if you're gone, if you've gone critical, then clearly you're not in work, and the medical system takes care of you, we hope. to, whatever extent it can, depending where you live, et cetera, et cetera. So what we're talking about is when people must actually get back into work, and yet they're probably not firing on all cylinders or some other metaphor for the way they were on full power before. And I think that's really vibrant in the coaching space. That's exactly my territory is because. What I'm talking about is you need to move beyond it, but it's coming with you. The injured parts, if you like, are in the back of your bus. They're not driving. Or maybe sometimes they are driving. You know, it's this, the metaphor of, you know, all these different parts of me are welcome, but they're here. I can't take that injured or weary or fragile or low resilience part of me and somehow park her somewhere else while I got to go to work today. But that is in fact what happens. A lot. And so the person is putting a lot of effort, mental effort and emotional labor and all, you know, like it's a laboring, it's labor intensive for them to be able to park off enough of their stuff so that they can attend work. And what you're describing is also then the, their mental effort and labor of the people around them to try and make accommodations to try and not be dicks and to be nice people and to, you know what I mean, like a lot of mental health stuff is just not being a dick. But it's like, how can we also take care of the fact that this is hard work that it's okay to say, this is difficult, this is labor, this is difficult, this is hard. Maintenance. Yeah. And I think that the Taking care of ourselves in that way, like having a compassionate workplace. And you know, that's where then the whole mindfulness bandwagon and having lunch breaks and spending team time together and building up social cohesion and doing all of these other activities. I think that's when it really steps in because these are really powerful ways that you're going to help that person stay in work, which is going to ultimately be better for them and their family for their long term mental health. And it's also going to be better for the workplace because you don't see people. Getting injured in there, you know, and then never reappearing again. That's hardly very good for the survivors. You know, whereas in fact, everyone in work, you get this normalized that you're going to come back. People are going to live amongst us with their issues, with their stuff. And they'll be working on some of their stuff sometimes effectively, sometimes not, and really normalizing that this is a team effort for everybody. So yes, that it's hard work and that there's these steps we can take. Mindfulness, just as a now everyone's going to feel better, I disagree with, but I think mindfulness or coloring or Lego or just having, you know, a tea break together once a week. These are lots of little ways where people really step into their own as leaders and managers they're really stepping into that space with it you're leading your team you're creating safe space for the humans to come or for human whole human to work. And that's time for you. Or the person who's in that leadership role is then needs also like this thing can't exist in just one bubble or pocket in the organization but it's really requiring a whole organization approach, which is the most lovely way to see it happening. So I don't know what you're describing also toxicity or, you know, like you were describing mental health sort of. crash out was, that was one.

Yoyo: 35:12

I think most people want to be kind, most people want to be sensitive. But I do think that there are environments that aren't as empathetic. And I think line managers are now learning that empathy and management styles is incredibly crucial. And I think back to the days, when I was in sales jobs and you'd get in at sort of whatever time you started in the morning and your boss would be like, right, okay, where are you today on a scale of one to 10? And you'd say, Oh, six boss, you know, and they're right. We're going to get you to a nine before 10 o'clock, you know, and there's all this kind of motivational stuff and sales environments are like that. And when you're young and you don't see through it so much, you realize that these are. Stepping stones of awareness, the accountability that you have to bring something to that party and the sales jobs like that require you to bring energy to the party. They're very good at helping you as young people to recognize where your energy levels are and where they need to be and that's like having the balloons and are they in front of you, behind you and, but not everybody wants to feel happy. Not everybody wants to be energetic. And I think we have to kind of respect that as well. But look, I want to talk about the diversity space, diversity and mental health. It's a big subject. It's one of the four that we're going to talk about now.

Kate: 36:20

here's to lead from that then. And. The person might be fragile and they're strong. They're stronger than they've ever known themselves to be. And I think this message is sometimes lost in this and it applies massively in the diversity space. It's we are strong. What we are is tired, we're injured, we're bruised, we're weary, we're fed. Yes, all of that stuff, but we're not weak. And the fact that someone's in work struggling with their mental health stuff is, doesn't need, it's interesting you described the eggshell scenario. I think that would say to me, this, if I was coming in to coach in that environment, would be really supporting people. How come this eggshell thing is existing around this person? How come they're, you know, we, they may be injured and managing, injured and. working at it, making mistakes and doing, you know, messing up and whatever else they're doing and coming back to work the next day. And I think that's, this is this real thing about, that is resilience. It's bouncing back. It's coming back. It's things not being perfect. The fact that it's messy, it's not a reason for everyone to then, you know, end up in a flump of exhaustion and to be at the whip's end with it. But no, this is what it's like, you know, this is how it shows up. So I think that's really And be supporting that person, like as I do in the coaching room, my client is the expert. That's that person is also, they'll say what they need. And do you need me to be on eggshell? I find I'm on eggshells around you in a loving and supportive conversation not an attack, but Oh, I find them. Wow. This is a bit like being on eggshells around you. Is that what it's like for you? Is this helpful for you? Do you need this? You know, open it up and get curious. And this is so much when we're calm and curious and compassionate, you know, all these things begin with C. We're courageous and we're confident, you know, like bringing all of that kind of energy into our managerial conversations, our leadership conversations, our conversations at home with our important special people in our lives. This is the energy you bring that then fosters resilience, that fosters bounce back. God, yeah, I am a bit of a dick when I'm sad. Right, so I said the word dick quite a lot. It's an Irish thing. It's an okay word where I'm from, but I don't mean to be intentionally cursing all over your podcast, sorry. What I think we're talking about here is the fourth R, which is really sweet like place to do it, which is this resisting re traumatization. And I think you've actually covered that again, really beautifully in the, I'm going to say it again, not being a dick. So a lot of not re traumatizing people is simply having this awareness. And that steps beautifully into the D& I space, because we're just aware that not everyone's the same and everyone wants. needs the same thing. So not everyone has the same coping styles or requests or, and that when we have this compassionate, open minded look into the humans in our workplace, suddenly we are already being trauma informed. We're already doing it, man, and you just, you're resisting the re traumatization, someone's got I mean, we should launch into it separately, but the neurodivergent needs and my children, if one of them needs to get up and move around and that's another child in the classroom is actually really unsettled by that. It's like resisting retraumatizing both, it's like this space does need to get bigger and bigger, because we're making allowances and including. everyone. So it's not wedging one child still on the chair. It's allowing them to move around in a way that works for them without totally sending some other child who really needs a quiet, hyper focused space to be able to work.

Yoyo: 39:54

So look, how does mental health affect the diversity space?

Kate: 39:59

it's like flipping it round the diversity space by which I'm meaning the whole idea that we're all different that there are some protected characteristics amongst us but that even within that, as I'm particularly with the increasing. awareness around the neurodivergent, like what is neurodivergence? What is neurodifference? What is neurotypicality? How are we making allowances to include everyone and make every workplace be a great place to work? Mental health suddenly fits, I think, massively into that because instead of inadvertently causing problems for a portion of our workforce by having, let's say, restrictive policies or some way that things are done that actually maybe it only works for some of the workforce. And I mean flexible working is a massive example from my own life back in the days when, and I'm a little bit older than, some. back in the days when we, the only place you could do your work was at work because there weren't computers. that were connected and all of this malarkey, times have changed now, unless you're working in a kitchen or in a factory track line, or, there's lots of, in a hospital, there's lots of places where you can't work remotely, but you could still work flexibly. And this allows this person, people to have autonomy and creativity and to bring their whole self. So that's one of the things that I think really feeds massively into the whole mental health is like when we're looking at embracing diversity and being really inclusive. And I don't think it's done at all perfectly yet anywhere.

Yoyo: 41:32

Let's look at gender. I mean, we know, don't we, that there's a huge disparity between how men and women deal with mental health. And it led, didn't it, some years ago to the men's community basically creating platforms and apps and support structures for men to talk about mental health because it wasn't seen macho there was this kind of bravado and ego in the way. And so men really didn't have. the luxury of spilling the tea in the sense of how they felt like women are quite accustomed to ringing each other up and going, I've had a sod bitch of a day. I just feel like crying. And I've done that. I've been on the phone to my boss before, because something's really gone bad. And all he's done is said, right, come off the call, make yourself a cup of tea, and then call me back. And you know, that cup of tea trick really bloody works. But we can't do that all the time, but I think for us, we're able to express ourselves a lot easier. For men, it's always been harder, but I like to think it's getting easier. Men should be able to share how they feel and cry,

Kate: 42:42

right? Yeah, absolutely. I, there's a couple of things around gender the toxic masculinity would be a sort of label that I would stick around that and I think that's very much certainly in the era that I was raised 70s and 80s Northern Ireland. Boys don't cry, boys don't wear pink, boys, oh, so much messaging that, that happened around the boys are good at X, girls are good at Y, the boys sewing club, they didn't sew the same as the girls we were taught how to sew. to mend our husband's clothes. That was basically what was happening at my primary school. Yeah, that's how old I am. I don't know if things are different now. But I think this is what we're seeing now is so much of these many years, not just in, not just from my lifespan, but like many years now of really not having this a very powerful conversation around how men and women can. Express themselves and manage their emotions and deal with the thoughts and the ways their heads. I love the work of Andy Elwood, who's the mental health first aid trainer that I trained with. And he does such a lot around Movember about particularly men's mental health. And just as we know that men are the highest you suicidality. And it's just so important. I've got two girls, but my sisters are all, have all got boys. And it's a really vibrant conversation amongst us as a as the aunties, I suppose you'd call us, like the auntie mob, like how are they are really keen to raise their boys in ways that is not toxic, that the boys can manage and deal with and talk about emotions. So they're bringing that in. And this is just the same as I'm raising my girls not to feel closed into the dominant narratives that might happen around what is it to be a girl and to be girly and, So is that the kind of stuff you're. Your meaning. Yeah.

Yoyo: 44:29

Yeah. Because it's still very prevalent, and I've quite often had some male friends say to me, Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to get all tearful. I'm like, Oh, shut up. You're silly. whatever.

Kate: 44:39

It's okay

Yoyo: 44:40

to cry. Christ, we do it all the time you've got to be able to cry and there's got to be women and men need to provide safe spaces for anybody who needs to cry, I think, when it's needed. But look, we know that mental health, adversely affects the neurodivergent space, doesn't it? You, yeah, you tell me about this because you alluded to this in episode one, but now we're going to talk about why that happens.

Kate: 45:06

I really understand the the context of male, female, like how we have been, we and our, era and our age group, if you like, have been raised. So I really get the way that you asked that question and I think it's The whole point to me about diversity and inclusion is not losing sight of any of the voices. There is a really important male voice and there's a really important female voice. What we're also hearing is a really important trans voice. And the conversations that are coming louder and clearer from the trans communities that are explaining how those two boxes don't fit them either. I haven't been helpful for them either. And so I just I just want to bring balance into that conversation about gender, the less binary it is, I actually think, the better. I really, I, I know that, particularly in America trans is, even here in Europe, is very difficult, very hot, very political, and I don't I haven't got answers for all of that. I think it's nuanced and complicated. But what I do think is when we've got compassion for the human in front of us. You know, that then, suddenly, in a way, doesn't matter if you're, consider yourself male or female or trans. But you're just a human in front of you, needing to express difficult, big emotions after a shit day or a shit thing or whatever's happened. And I think that's really, for me, a very powerful place to come back to.

Yoyo: 46:35

I hope we're getting better as a human race really around acceptance and certainly acceptance of how these journeys also affect an individual's mental health. Let's talk about the neurodivergent space. It's certainly a space that I'm very aware of within the cyber security industry. It tends to attract a lot of neurodivergence, but you alluded in episode one to the fact that people with are likely to have a bit of a tougher time with mental health. Let's look at that and the reasons why.

Kate: 47:08

Yeah, I think I've read quite a few really interesting papers coming out from around the time of 2016 onwards. Suddenly you start to see stuff being published around this. And this is the, is there a crossover between neurodivergence and trauma? And it seems to be that yes, there's something around the neurodivergent brain. Is more at risk of traumatization. And there's lots of again, I don't have a one, there's no one answer or kind of, I don't want to make this all super reduce it into, into something meaningless, but rather to go, this is a very It's actually a conversation that's expanding at the minute that is opening up so that we're beginning to get more and more awareness and more understanding. It's if someone was neurodivergent then that means they've had likely, more likely to have had more exposure to stuff that was traumatizing to them, even from like birth, from birth onwards, like their early childhood experiences. For example, being told, being made to sit still is a very classical example of someone who's got ADHD or autism. Being sitting still is almost physically harmful. It's certainly causing pain. They've got pain, more heightened awareness and sensitivity to pain, like that's just one example. So you've got someone by the time they're in the school system is already actually had high levels of chronic exposure to what is to them is traumatizing. And this links back to what we're saying at the beginning, which is trauma is not what happened to you. It's what happens inside of you. And when we take that. bigger picture approach to understanding trauma, then you can realize that the neurodivergent person may be having a very different experience in that classroom compared to the child next to them, who's neurotypical.

Yoyo: 48:50

As an employer, as an HR division, as a line manager, or owner of a business, or family member, if you are aware and it's open that somebody close to your organisation has neurodivergence, then it's really important, isn't it, to think about the mental health space?

Kate: 49:08

I think it's, again, it's the, it's a compassionate space and it's, again, the answer lies with the person. Not with being spoken for, but us and them, and I think when we hold those as kind of like little principles, almost, in our four R's Understanding how in what ways life works better for them, and noticing where those things might actually be great for other people as well, like generally what's, as a rule of thumb across the diversity spaces. If it's good for one group, it'll be good for all, like flexible working or whatever, you can think of loads of examples. So I think that Instead of fearing it and I can, and I totally get the overwhelm and managers and leaders oh my God, another thing to learn about, another thing to get a training on, another thing, there's certainly overwhelm and overburdening. And we place a lot into our managers and leaders to just simply absorb these new things, absorb these new things. Like you were asking me offline before we were on this call, like what, you know, what's the, what's your children's school like? I mean, flip me, I just feel for the teachers, like they've just got training on training on training. There's no time to absorb any of this information, nevermind make it into like everyday life.

Yoyo: 50:18

Although you're, you've kind of triggered me there because I'm thinking, okay, training upon training upon training, but surely that's the kind of culture we want people to be in where you don't just go to university in, 1996. And that's it. You don't have to learn anything new for the rest of your life. And I think that's what life was like in the past. I don't think. There was this culture of self development and evolvement of learning. And I think nowadays, certainly Gen X, I think is very open to learning new things. But I find the baby boomer generation is not, they're kind of very closed off. It's oh, this is how we've always done it. Why is it, I used to be able to say that all the time. I was never offended by that. And I never saw that, you know, there's this kind of like line draw. It's like I'm staying in this space and I'm not moving and I'm not learning and then I have a lot of conversations as well with people who certainly around the cyber security space and technology around how this generation, the baby boomer generation, often say things like, Oh, you just can't keep up with technology these days. It's, it's hard to stay on top in it. It's moving so fast. And I think the Gen X and younger generations, we move with the technology. We have to learn all the time. So I think one of the things I've learned that I certainly advocate for is a continual learning cycle and to encourage people to move with the learning, move with the knowledge, move with the technology. And it took me a long time to realize that some people really

Kate: 51:47

struggle. Yeah, I love how you've rebalanced that I hold the space that some people find this overwhelming. And yeah, another thing, I just spent a lot of we, I'm researching some stuff for reading a lot of McKinsey reports this week about the challenges facing big business across the world in this third quarter of 2023. And one of the things is just like this relentless, it can seem like a relentless barrage of stuff that needs to be learned and taken on board. And it's yeah. The work's never done. What I love is your reframing of that to going, And That's good. That's healthy. Yeah. That's the new world and we can embrace this opportunity. Love

Yoyo: 52:23

it. It's the same for people who are at work and they have to do the annual continuing professional development or the CBD courses and the ones around, you know, health and safety at work and diversity and inclusivity at work. And they have to do them every year and they're like, Oh God, do the same things. I'm like, well, actually, no, this is your way of staying relevant. The more relevant you are. more activated you can be and the more you add value to the business rather than just

Kate: 52:51

try and click through each section really fast because you've got a report to do by five o'clock,

Yoyo: 52:56

do you know what I mean? A lot of people see them as a barrier and I think a lot of people do see learning as a barrier rather than an opportunity and I think that's all about mindset, but we digress. I think it's about the mindset. It's an active mind wants to learn, but then a mind that's struggling will be overwhelmed with learning as well. So there's other reasons, isn't there? Why there's. Blocks, but I always consider in my certainly my profession that humans are like firewalls And if you've got your humans activated in your business, and they're doing the best they can to protect your business That's great. But if your firewall is somewhat Distracted or not it at its full capacity Then it's gonna be to a degree inefficient for its use. Yeah. Yeah.

Kate: 53:41

Yeah, we could go with that metaphor and be like your firewall can get holes in it. It could be more like Swiss cheese. It can be weary Swiss cheese. Yeah. You need upgrade. Yeah. And this whole thing, like the overwhelming and weariness, if we are feeling that in our managers and our leaders is you know, I then there is more care. can be, you know what I mean? We need to care for the whole, it's not just certain parts. But I, what are you, to what you were saying there is I think there's also hunger for really good training. There's no need for all this to be tedious. I love it. I, and there's, but I've sat through and, been ex army as well oh my goodness, some really terrible training. And you just think this doesn't need to be so awful. So I think, and I'm not a trainer, so I'm not casting aspersions on my training, you know, Colleagues, I'm just saying wow, there's such a space, I think, opening up for really creative, powerful, effective ways to get these messages out to people and doesn't have to be TV.

Yoyo: 54:35

Yeah. And keep finding new ways and innovative ways to keep people plugged in. So the last subject we've got to discuss now is around suicide and PTSD, both incredibly serious challenges for some people to deal with, but look, let's be real. Suicide has a whole different bag because the perspective is so different. You have some people saying that death by suicide is the most incredibly selfish thing a person can do to the rest of their family. You have the understanding and knowledge that death by suicide is certainly a realization of knowing that person felt that they had a place of no return and an overwhelming pain that needed to end. And then you have this whole kind of inconvenience piece where, you know, every time you're trying to get home from London, say, or from Manchester, and you know that the trains are disrupted because someone's decided at the worst possible time of the day to jump off a bridge onto a train track. And you have all of these people around you just ahhing, oh, for goodness sake, what an inconvenience this is to my life. And at the same time, we understand that's somebody who decided they couldn't live for the rest of their life, as inconvenient as it is to everybody else. So suicide leaves scars. It certainly is something I had to deal with quite a lot in the police. But it's not an easy thing to talk about either, is it? And especially for the survivors, the people who have left behind, that have to continue dealing with that. And then let's look at the consideration for our people who are still with us today, who very seriously contemplate suicide and live day to day, hopefully getting stronger and stronger, but still living with being in that very dark place at one time.

Kate: 56:18

The. most powerful training and like literally changed my ability and ways to think about this subject was in internal family systems with Dr. Dick Schwartz and There, the idea there is the internal family is all the different voices in your head. And we talked a little bit in light ways in this, you know, in our conversations together about you know the way that we've got a part of us that becomes under threat or overwhelmed and some experience in life and then different parts of a step forward and we become the funny one, the smart one, the organized one, the sporty one, the whatever it is. This is how humans operate these voices inside your head are actually distinct. parts of you. And the voice in your head that, so there's different types of managers and there's the proactive manager to be organized, to be on time, to be funny, to be, to hand in your work, whatever those they're the ones that we really love. And that kind of inner manager is, It may have a very critical voice, but it's the one that's probably got most of us to the, the good place that we are in life today. I have my critical managers to thank for the fact that I've actually, completed loads of things that were hard in my life. What the internal family systems model really revolutionizing, and it is across the world of psychotherapy and psychology as well, is the understanding that we have a different type of manager, which is called a firefighter. And this is one that steps in emergency and takes an action to take you out of threat or danger. Okay. And so this is the really important point where you are understanding that not all so a firefighter, for example, the firefighter analogy is that in they come with all their hoses and they completely soak the house and wreck the carpets, the bedding, the kitchen, everything was destroyed. But the fire is out. And I think that is one of the most powerful things is to understand that a firefighter has still got your best interests at heart. Now one of the things around self, and it goes down the same track of self harm, and within which lives suicide, suicidality, suicidal ideation, is this requirement that's perceived by the inner system, by the part of you that thinks this is the only option left to me now to get out of this situation. And that ultimate firefighter response to take you out of the game. And I work with a lot of, it's not a huge number but amongst my veterans, particularly Falklands veterans, suicide is like just it's a constant companion, the idea of it, it's just there all the time. And it's the part of you that is trying to Have the last resort door is open, that there is a way to get out of here. And then, to me, that really changes how we can talk about suicide. Because instead of trying to stop the oh my goodness stop. then in fact we say, we can get curious and go, what is it you're trying to escape from? What is the major danger here? What can we do to help? How can we, you know that these feelings will pass and your mental health first aid training is all around suicide, like all other thoughts in our head, they come and go like weather. And even a suicidal thought will also go if we allow it time and space to do and it's really allowing that conversation. A great question that I was actually taught by a clinical psychologist who works a lot with veterans is do you want to be dead? Or do you want to be dead? And

Yoyo: 1:00:00

I don't know what to make of that, to be honest.

Kate: 1:00:02

Yeah, I know. It's really, and I've been able to use this question. So do you want to be dead? In which case, how long for? And the person will usually say, Oh, yeah, actually just for eight months till I've finally got my surgery through and I've got the use of my arm back or whatever it is, or, you know, something's happened. Or do you want to be dead? And then they think for a minute and they go, Actually, no, I don't really want to be dead, like never coming back. And so I think there is a power in, and again, this is a self compassion thing for you as a first responder if you're in this position of talking to someone, like how much can you within you host this, but I think it's a really powerful space to be able to let people know that these thoughts are likely to pass, and that it's, likely to be a request from inside of you, some way of getting out of this situation. And that when you go and get help and say, I need to be out of this situation, but not by dying. I just,

Yoyo: 1:01:00

I think, you know, gosh, part of me just wishes there was a quick fix, you know, clearly if we had the ability and the power to wave a magic wand and just whisk them out of their current circumstances and stick them in a completely nice, new, warm, cozy, fluffy place where the endorphins would get going, you can't help but think if they had the opportunity to sit on a beach for a week, would they still feel the same way in a week's time? And I know that's not a quick fix and I know that's trivializing someone's pain, but I think when you're in a dark hole and you can't see a way out, I think that's you kind of want to scoop them out and say, okay, let's hope you never go back to that hole, but here's a warm, sunny place. And how are you feeling now? And, you know, I just it's a certainly something that is a very alien feeling to me. Very hard for me to articulate. I can only go on the sentiments of people who've confided in me about how they feel. My next door neighbor committed suicide and he was going through a separation with his girlfriend and the girlfriend comes home one day. Opens up the door and discovers him hanging, having hung himself from the top of the stairs. And it was just so needless, because you and I and my neighbor who was in the middle, we're all home that that, that day, you and I can both say crikey, you know, he would have gone on, he would have met somebody else. He would have had another relationship, possibly even more children. You see this future, it doesn't all end with that deep feeling of sorrow. I see it as a totally, like I, I was in the police at the time and Jenny needed me to go into the house and confirm he, he died, which was very obvious. As soon as I walked in the room, it was a very cold February and the central heating was on. It was very obvious to tell he'd already passed several hours ago. And I went, Tom, you know, what a waste. I was annoyed with him.

Kate: 1:02:50

But that's a natural grief response from you. Oh,

Yoyo: 1:02:53

what a waste. Yeah, whatever.

Kate: 1:02:55

I was annoyed. I mean, here's the thing, the fact that we reacting in, I mean, this is what I mean by such, again, you're giving such great examples in this conversation. This is what it's like to be self compassionate and just notice how annoyed you are and sad. And listen, when we talked before about sadness and anger coming together, like you were furious that he did that because it's so flipping sad. And that's okay for you to feel like that and it doesn't make you a bad person, you know, like these range of emotions are standard reactions to bad shit happening and to these situations that we find ourselves in. Yeah, I think that supporting someone. Yeah. You just think, goodness, how could we have helped? And I think that's the whole magic of raising awareness of why are we talking about this is to just keep helping, particularly the young kids coming through, like particularly young men particularly people in a very difficult where you really feel like there's no way out. So just that there is always a way out. Ask for help, raise the conversation. Because this feeling in itself will pass, but your circumstances won't. So what you're saying is, will you be back there in a week later? No, if the, I know that as a coach, if you don't change anything, then nothing will change. There's lots of ways that we can help people. That's so much power now in helping people make those changes.

Yoyo: 1:04:18

And you can understand as well why people become, addicted to narcotics behaviors, other things, because it's a way of escaping, isn't it? Not sort of dealing with something head on. And we all know, like we think we talked about wine in the first episode, didn't we? And how. There are so many things out there that can just numb you down. And I don't know, I don't know. I remember when I was very young, and I think this probably tells, talks to a lot about my attitude around resilience. I was very young, and there was a drug culture. Certainly I was a DJ and a lot of people know that was my first career. I spend a lot of times, very sober in nightclubs,

Kate: 1:04:55

obviously creating a great vibe

Yoyo: 1:04:57

on the dance floor, but never really dabbling in the narcotics myself, but seeing a lot of it go on. And I just remember thinking, I don't want to take something that makes me feel that good, that living day to day feel shit. Right. Why would I give myself that mountain every day when ultimately it's, I'm responsible for making myself enjoy every single day of life. So I guess I sussed out very quickly as well, that if I ever did succumb to any dipshit like that, that there wasn't going to be anyone around to sort of nurse me and go, Hey, stop doing this. Get better. Yeah. There was no one around to help me do that. So my resilience was survival. It was a case of, you know, don't do silly stuff. You haven't got anyone who's going to get you out of bed the next day or put you to bed the next day or care for you if you need a carer. So in essence, I didn't put any burdens on anybody else. And I just thought I'm part of the general crack on and get on with it generation. I'll be honest with you, I just, what's the point in taking something that makes you feel so good that you can't enjoy the next day of your life. I didn't get that.

Kate: 1:06:08

I love the the work of Liam Farquhar, who is a legal psychedelic guide, and he talks a lot about, so this is therapeutic psychedelics, and one of the things is exactly, he calls it this immersion, because you've gone and had an experience, which, okay, not everyone has a good trip, but imagining that you've curated a good trip. Like how to come out of the good trip and go back into your life. It's that integration is where the coaching, where the magic, where the long term work is, where the graft is, where you're going back into your life with a mission to make things better in some whatever way. The other one I really love is the Gabor Mate. You can see him on YouTube where he goes to an ayahuasca retreat. And the whole point. So ayahuasca is again, therapeutic psychedelics and people are using it to have a spiritual experience, but also to heal past traumas to, there's this whole like reason. So I know you were talking about substance misuse, but I'm also really interested in, and it's a big, the MDMA trials and I reached level three in the States, this is relevant to the world of trauma recovery. But when gabramatic, so gabramatic. Really worldwide renowned psychiatrist working with people with addictions with suicide, like all of it. And he is leading this retreat in the rainforest where you can only go, go and legally do ayahuasca with physicians from the U. S. So these are other doctors, other psychiatrists, other psychologists, therapists, and counselors who have gone to do this retreat, and he's to be there as one of the facilitators. And he arrives in the retreat and he tells this story. It's just a little YouTube. You find him talking about it. But he tells this story where he says he arrived at the retreat and basically the retreat facilitators took one look at him and said, there is so much dark energy around you. We're not having you anywhere near the people. And this is this idea that trauma, like we were talking today about like managers and how difficult this is and how the overburdening and you're adding on many burdens together creates a big one. This is the same when you're exposure to trauma, whether you're listening to someone because it's your role as a therapist or a psychiatrist, or whether you're A police first responder, like all of these are exposures. This is what I'm talking about is the difference between the exposure to the trauma and the what happens inside of you. And so even he, with all his years and years of experience, is a just amazing practitioner, is arriving with this dark energy all around him. And what they did in the ayahuasca people worked with him one to one for three days until he had enabled himself to clear himself enough so that he could then. Go and do his role as facilitator. And I think what's really powerful for all of us from that is this realization that just because you're a first responder, a doctor whatever, anyone in this kind of role, it doesn't make you magic. You still need to do an awful lot of inner work to take care of yourself to acknowledge and understand that these things are heavy burdens, that this is heavy and difficult work, and yet you don't have to carry it heavy. That you, there are ways to work through this and to move through that brings more of you. Like, why should you finish your shift as a police officer or whatever your work is and be too exhausted to engage with your children or your family or your partner? What kind of life is that? So a lot of what I talk about in this trauma informed thing is about how can we curate a way that this is sustainable living, that we're going to all be working until we're 75 at this rate anyway. Like, how can we make that so it's actually going to not flatten us?

Yoyo: 1:09:34

And of course, we should recognize the people that didn't make it and allowed it to flatten them. But look, I think we've covered so many amazing subjects today, Kay. First of all, I love your language. I love so much the way you articulate and make a lot of sense. I should imagine. Even though I've got quite a mature thought process around language, you have certainly, been very interesting to listen to and resonate with. There are... We've learned no quick solutions, but there are a range of options. And I think if any of this resonates with anyone listening, we'll certainly provide links to the authors that have mentioned throughout episode one and two. Kate will provide a link to your website and your LinkedIn page. And anybody seriously, don't hesitate to get in touch with this amazing woman. If you feel that. Coaching you with your mental health or mental wellness is important to you where you are right now, or if you know somebody you've listened to Kate enough, I'm sure, to realize that she's rather. Rather wonderful. Kate.

Kate: 1:10:44

Oh, that's so lovely. Thank you so much. Yes, please get in touch people. Just, the main thing about the hero and the hero's journey is they're never alone. There's always help. There's always someone.

Yoyo: 1:10:55

The one thing I think that I've remembered and taken even from episode one is that, you know, it's a bus and there can be several elements of you driving even at the same time. And I love the idea of checking in and saying, okay, who's driving the bus today? And I think that's a phenomenal part of my self awareness journey and can't thank you enough at Kate Brassington. Thank you very

Kate: 1:11:16

much. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Bye everybody.