EP 070 Paul Nanson: From leading in difficult environments to Sandhurst and mastering the art of leadership

BIO

A senior leader with extensive expertise based on operations, leadership development, recruiting, training and personnel management. A qualified Coach and recent best-selling author on leadership and life skills.

He is a board member and senior advisor with Coaching Centered Leadership, a company that helps people and organisations think differently about leadership development. Recent clients have included Virgin O2 and Network Rail. He is also a Patron for the Motivational Preparation College for Training, and a Trustee for the charity Walking with the Wounded.

His current role is built on 34 years serving in the British Army, leading and operating in a variety of roles and operational environments. Final post was Commandant of the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, Director Leadership for the Army, and senior officer responsible for Army recruiting and training. This appointment involved leadership through a period of significant transformation, including the creation of an individual leadership development pipeline and the opening of the Army’s first Centre for Leadership. 

 LinkedIn Profile https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-nanson-b619b9a7/

Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

0:01

If you enjoy the security circle podcast, please like share and comment or even better. Leave us a Fabry view. We can be found on all podcast platforms. Be sure to subscribe. The security circle every Thursday. We love Thursdays.

Yoyo: 0:44

Hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. We want to thank all of our listeners around the world. Thank you for listening. If PO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, we are dedicated to providing meaningful education and certification for all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference to our members' mental health and wellbeing. With me today, I have the former major general Paul Nasem, cbe e he was a British Army officer who served as commander in the seventh arm of Brigade Commandant of the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst and General Officer commanding for recruitment and initial training command. Wow. At the moment, he is the leadership consultant at Paul Nason Associates and a board member at Coaching Centered Leadership. What can I say? It's an immense privilege to have you with us today. Thank you for joining us at the Security Circle. It's a pleasure to be here, Yolanda. Thank you very much for inviting me. Brilliant. Now listen you left the Army in 2020 and it what, a year to leave the Army. Cause I think we had the, we had the covid then, didn't we? Tell us about your journey from leaving the Army and why you've decided to go into leadership. Yeah, well, I suppose first lesson is never, never try and start a second career in the middle of a, a global pandemic, I suppose the first lesson. So I left, yeah, I left in 2020, having completed 34 years service. So I think transition's always quite difficult for us. But it was slightly more difficult going out into an even more uncertain world. But in some ways it was good for me cause it forced me to to think about what it was I really wanted to do next. And it took me a while to work out whether I wanted full-time employment or whether I wanted to, pursue my own, my own sort of agenda and have more of a portfolio of different things, which I think, given what I've been doing particularly the last few years of my career, very busy, very full on. And therefore the opportunity to have a bit more time with my family and a bit of time to do other things was, was quite attractive. So eventually I, I, that's, that's the sort of pathway I, I went down and, and. All my mates said, you've gotta have something, you've gotta have a sort of, a banker, something that you can, you can focus on. And I thought for me, given quite a lot towards the end of my career was based around leadership. In particular, generat the next generation of leader for the, for the army as, as director leadership. I thought, well that might be something that might be translatable into into the civilian world. So that's what I look at and, and that's where I am. So as, as you, as you quite already said, I started my own organization looking at leadership and I was very fortunate to, to team up within Milton and, and coaching centered leadership very early on in my journey. And and the rest, I suppose is history. That's, that's, that's what I do now. Mainly, I, I help people think about leadership based on a different perspective. And that perspective being my experience over 34 years leading and being led by some amazing people and some not so amazing people. In the in some difficult environments. Why is the transition hard when you leave the military, when you come back into civilian life, Paul? Well, it's not, it's not hard for, I don't think, I think it's hard for everybody. I think it's, well, I think it probably is hard for everybody, but not everybody struggles. But I think it is. If you've been, you, you join this amazing organization and it is an amazing organization. And I joined it, from school when I was young. And you join this, basically, you join a second family that wraps around you, supports you, takes you on these amazing adventures and you form these amazing bonds with, with with, with your friends. You go through some difficult times and some great times, and then suddenly, you come to at the end and, and you, you'll, you are suddenly not on your own, but you know what I mean. You leave this, you leave this amazing brotherhood, sisterhood, and and off you go. And it is, it is quite difficult to, to to, to adjust to civilian world to translate what you've done for 34 years into what people will understand. Some people find it really, really easy. Some people struggle, but I think, everybody finds it a significant change. I just certainly did. In fact, when I left the police, I had to go through, I, I was only in the police for seven years, but I had to go through a period of adjustment. And it was just literally around language and communications. Because I wonder if you'll be able to identify this in the police. We have to be very, very prescriptive with our communications. There's no area of ambiguity. We can't allow an interpretation that is, other than the intent of the communication, and therefore that communication can be very direct. And I remember when I first came out and I sat down and I, and I, I was told that, my tone would offend people. And it wasn't because I was putting anything rude in there, it was just because I was being very to the point. And I think certainly in corporate, you have to be a little bit more, they say pink and fluffy, don't they? But there, there's a lot of soft words. There's a lot of, gentleness. That's one of the ways we all have to adapt, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. You obviously spot on and I think it is just learning. I mean, it, it is almost like learning to speak a different language sometimes, you're understanding what, what, what's the right thing to say? What's the wrong thing to say? How do you interact with people? You can't assume some of the things that you would assume in the military or, or, or the police in terms of what people get. Like, for example, the understanding of what it means to be in a team. What does that mean? Values, behaviors, some things that you take for granted that other people are going to react to certain situations in certain ways. You can't, you can't rely on that when you are working necessarily in, in a civilian world. And a and a lot of it is also u understanding, translating what you've been doing, whether that's in the police or the military for x months of years into what they understand in terms of your, your characteristics, capabilities. What do you bring to the party? What can you, what, what can you offer? And the answer is, Particularly for the military and, and inr all emergency services, an incredible amount. It's just making sure people understand what that is. Now listen, what made the young Paul Na say, oh, I'm going to join the army. Take us back. It's not that far back. Where is a long time ago I, I, I wanted to be a soldier. Since I can remember, to be honest with you, I, I was very lucky that I lived next door to a an elderly gentleman who'd, who'd, who'd served in the Second World War at Monte Casino, a very famous battle. And he had been he, I used to sit with him when I was little and, and listen to his stories. His, both his sons were going into the army as well. They went, they were going to Santa. So I sort of grew up when I was very little with, with him and them going through this amazing experience and listening to their adventures. And so that got me, that got me sort of hooked from an early age and then joined the cadets when I was at school. And and really that that was, it just wanted, just wanted to be a soldier. So, that's, that's how I ended up in, at Santon and in the infantry. And while being a soldier, and this is how we understand your early mindset in relation to where you saw yourself going. Where did you wanna go when, I mean, and did that change? Did you join and say, I'm, I wanna do that, or, and, or, I wanna rule the world and I'm talking about metaphorically or were you quite happy within your own environment? What drove you to have such an extraordinary career? Yeah, I don't, I don't think I joined thinking, gosh, I want to be a general or a colonel or, or, or, or that I, I, I joined yeah, I, I definitely wanted to become an infantry officer. I found, I, I saw that as being. The journey I wanted purely cuz of the role, the excitement, the adventure that really appealed to me. So I definitely wanted to be in that particular part of the, of the army. And and to be honest with you, sounds, I mean, I, I took it as it took it as it came. I sort of looked at what was gonna happen next and, and tried to do my best and, and, and the rest of it followed. That sounds a bit cheesy, it's not meant to, but I remember 1, 1, 1 advice, best bit of advice anyone ever gave me. I think as I as I went through my career was treat, treat the next job as if it's your last. And, and don't, don't worry about the future. If you, if you put every ounce of energy into your current employment, do the best you possibly can. Leave it in a better place than you found it then, then your career will take care of itself. And it was pretty good advice actually. I think too many people nowadays are focused on, Join, join, join an organization. You, you wanna, you wanna be within two years, you wanna be running it. People come under stuck, don't they? So it worked for me. And I've had, I really enjoyed myself. I had a great time. That's a really cool phrase, isn't it? Treat the next job as though it's your last when Yeah. even strategically at quite a high level, you're encouraged to choose the next job for the following one. Otherwise, you are not choosing very wisely for your career direction. But I, I think that's, there's something there definitely to, to take on board. So your first promotion, pick us through that and then, and how did that make you feel in respect of where you felt you belonged in, in the British Army? Well, we joined, we joined, we all joined as a, as a so I was lucky. I was lucky enough to, to go to Sandhu, so I was gonna be an officer from the start. And commission, we commissioned from San and go to our respective regiments. And for me that was the fu ears. And you all arrive as second left tenants. That's the, that's the lowest officer rank. And you do a sort of two years probation where you are, you are learning on the job you do your, your your basic courses. In my case, it was a platoon commander's course learning how to, how to command a platoon. And then you if you are wise, you listen to your, the people in your platoon, your, your old elders and obviously betters who've had more experience than you. And, and over two years you learn, you learn this amazing art of, of leadership and command. And hopefully you get it right. And if you do, if you do okay, you, you get promoted to left tenant, which is the next rank up. So there's no, there's no tests or anything. It's just about time served and, and experience. And so that was, that was my first, that was my first, my first promotion as it were. That's quite a big step. How many people are in a platoon? Well, it depends, but on paper, 30, 30, 32. Alrighty. And so there you are in your first kind of leadership position, what did you, what do you remember being told at that time that has stayed with you throughout your own leadership career? Well, yeah, don't, I don't, don't for one second. Think that you're going to understand everything about leadership in the first couple of years. You, you get this amazing foundation at Santos, which is fantastic, but it's not, you're not the finished product. Nor, nor are, nor am I the finished product now. I mean, leadership is about a journey, isn't it? Of, of, of learning, of exp experiential learning, of gaining as much wisdom as you can. And I think, the, the wise old hand said to me, when you go to be a platoon commander, you've got this incredible experienced platoon sergeant alongside you who's probably been in the army 15, 20 years has been there, seen it, done it. If you listen to him, And it was him. In my case, we were all, all blokes in those days. If you listen to him he'll, if he's, if he's worth his salt, which they all are, he'll point you in the right direction. He'll help you, he'll mentor you. And if you listen wisely and, and to others in your platoon, you'll, you'll grow into this leadership position. Don't assume you get it from day one cause you won't. And it was really good advice and hopefully that's what I did. And, and I learned an awful lot of my, in the first couple of years, especially from my excellent platoon sergeant who who helped me out. Listen, it's the lesson, isn't it? Leadership is about a personal journey. And I think about some of the mistakes that I've made, and then as I've gone through the journey, I've had, quite junior, people say, look, look up to me. Hang on every word I say and think I'm really smart and wise, experienced. And, and then you, I find myself in situations where I'm thinking, whoa, this is a new thing. Yeah. And, and you can literally go from feeling like a hero to somebody, to feeling like an absolute muppet because of the level of interface that you've had or, or depending on the situation you are in. I mean, this is corporate. Yeah. This is forgiving, but the military is less forgiving when you get leadership wrong. So take us through some of the experiences maybe that you've witnessed or that, that have shown you how, how it can go wrong and why it's so important to get it right. Yeah. I don't think, I don't think, I don't think they're unforgiving. I think as long as you are honest and open, About your mistakes then I've found through my career, Sol soldiers are very understanding and they will, it's when you, it's when you cover things up or try and try and hoodwink them or pretend it hasn't gone or blame somebody else. That's, that's when you lose that vital element of trust. Now of course, if you constantly get it wrong particularly in difficult situations, then something, something's gotta change. But if you make the occasional well-intentioned mistake and are honest about it, they'll, they'll forgive you without a shadow of a doubt if you've got that trust. So I think, I think that's, that's my first point. But when you, there are, I mean, I mean obviously you've gotta try very hard not to get it wrong, but I think it, it is some, sometimes you are faced with these incredibly wicked challenging problems that no matter how good a leader you might be, you can't possibly know the answer. And therefore, I think that's where. You've gotta have the confidence to firstly consult with your team and see if anybody in there knows how to do it. Cuz nine times outta 10, somebody, and it could be the youngest fussier, will, might know how to deal with it. And therefore you've gotta perhaps trust them to, to be able to unlock the problem for you. And that's, that's all about empowerment and, and, and and, and allowing people to step up and make decisions. But secondly, you've gotta, you've gotta do your best to make the best possible decision with the information you've got at the time. And I remember being taught at centers, right or wrong, to make a decision and go for it. Nothing worth and delivering, and, and, and just do, do, do make, make your best call. And I think I've lived, and I've made some, I've made some poor decisions in my time. I've made some terrible decisions in my time. But, but I did my best. And I think as long as you can look yourself in the mirror when things have gone wrong and say to yourself, do you know what? At the time I did my best. Who, who can second guess you? Who can, I get bored of these people who, who look back and say, oh yeah, it was the right decision. If you weren't there at the time, if you went faced with that incredibly complicated situation, who are you to judge what people have done in good faith and aren't, done their best? So anyway, long-winded answer, but I think yet I have made decisions. I think being honest and upfront about it is, is one thing. And also just, just doing your best with the information you've got at the time. That's all you can do. Can you think of a story that comes to mind where leadership was the key learning on the journey? I think one of my most formative experiences was in Iraq in 2003 when we were faced with a very difficult situation in the city of Basra. When we had fought our way into the city, our were confronted by a pretty much a vacuum. We were, we were in amongst the civilian population that was crying out for help. All, all the infrastructure had gone really with, with the with, with the sort of defeat of the, of the Iraqi army. And, and we were there to sort of try and stabilize the situation. And it was a very complicated, confusing issue. And I think I really learned that. I genuinely didn't have the answers. Cuz we hadn't been, we hadn't been trained or prepared for what we faced. We had to, we had to do our best given the situation we were in. But my main, my main leadership lesson was they're genuinely empowering, particularly junior leaders. They, they were the ones who, who. Triumphed in that, in that environment because they were the ones that were facing the difficult situations, constantly. And trusting them to get on with it was, without a shadow of a doubt, my biggest learning probably of my career and also not trusting them. And there was one situation where, I whatever reason we had a problem with, with prisoners and, and I doubted my people. I doubted my men. I thought they'd done something that they hadn't. And, and that breakdown of trust and we, I to get it back eventually, but just that breakdown of trust in a very difficult situation I felt it for, for quite a few days. Something I wouldn't want to go through again. And again, a real learning lesson for me. You've gotta, you've gotta back your people. You've got to, you've got to really particularly in the crisis situation that we were in, you've really gotta, you've gotta really sustain those bonds of trust. It's hugely important. There's a huge difference, isn't there, in being a leader and being in a leadership role. Take us through what you understand, those two that they're so far apart. Well, I think, I think we have a, a phrase, cause it's all about command leadership and management, C l M and trying to, and people don't really understand the difference between the three. And I think the way I describe it is that, if you are, if you are put in a position of command, then that, that position comes with, with authority. The authority of your rank or your role or your position. That, and that's often bounded by policy. You are required to do certain things. And that comes with the job leadership though, is how you do that. I mean, least leadership is that very, very personal relationship you have with those in your command. That mutual contract of trust that you generate with them, how you treat them, how you inspire them, persuade them to do things they might not necessarily want to do, but you have to do that. Now, of course, in the merger, you can shout them and tell them to do stuff, and by din, by dint of that authority, they'll probably do it. But will they do it to the best of their ability? Probably not. Unless, unless you lead them and they trust you and, and, and believe in you and all those other good things that your listeners will know. Well, and I, and I generally do think that ultimately, particularly in the sort of situations we find ourselves in, if you're going to, if you're going to try and persuade people to go into harm's way, you've got to have that incredibly personal relationship with them. And that's, that's leadership and that's about them trusting you and believing in you and going the extra mile for you. Often, often in a very dangerous situation. So I think that's the difference between leadership and command authority. It's about that personal ability to inspire. So in Sandhurst you told me that there's 96% success rate, which is phenomenal and it's a selection process, but not everybody's cut out to be a good leader or to with withstand a leadership role. And we see that so much. Certainly in corporate life we see a lot of people promoted to positions. And really there's an incredibly poor management experience or management structure and it's not working. So when you compare the program for Sandhurst, did you, what traits did you spot, for example, that could tell you that somebody was going to be successful and whether somebody was gonna be a part of that 4%, which I appreciate is incredibly low. Yeah. And I'm out to date by, by three years, so you'd have to check on the stats, but when I was leaving, it was about 96. Success rate wasn't, that wasn't first time success rate. Some people took a bit more time. So we had, if people needed more time to develop, they were, they went back a term or, or they could be given more time, but they would eventually get through, 96% would eventually get through the 4% usually was, was a, was an injury, could be, cause it's quite a high, it's a, it's a, it's a physically demanding course. So very few failed due to inability to lead. And I think. That is, that is to do with the very the selection process that they have to go through to get to Sandhurst, which involves a number of hurdles, probably the most intense one being the Army Officer Selection Board at a place called Westbury, which is where they will go through a two or three day, selection process, which in mixture of physical, mental tests to make sure that they've got the potential to be a leader. And it's that potential that, that, that the, the Army's looking for. And that's quite a tough course. And I, and again, don't quote me, but, but it's, it's about, about 50% will get through that, of those that apply. So, so the ones that get to the front door of sand, we know have got the potential. And then it's about us developing that, that potential into, into leadership over the 44 weeks that they spend at at the academy before they go on to, to their to their, to their regiments. But as I said before, it's not the finished product that comes out. Sand the journey continues, but it's the, it's the basic building block that we, we do there. In terms of, in terms of the attributes that getting through to selection, I have absolutely no idea in terms of how it's done down there. It's I never, I was never based at Westbury, but they're doing an amazing job because what comes through to Sandhurst is usually very, very high quality as, and that's why we've got 96% success rate. Yeah. There's no sitting there rolling your eyes going, what have they sent us this time? It's you can pretty much know that all that, that trust is there, that you're gonna get good quality candidates come through. Yeah. You, you talked to me before about leadership being about empowering people to step up and lead. Is that something that was part of the Sandhurst program?. It's mission Commanders. We, as is called in the, in the, in the military mission Commanders all all about creating a culture in your team whereby, you empower your people to be able to step up and make difficult decisions. And that's all born of the fact. And you'll recognize it from the police that you know how often if you're gonna get ahead of the opposition, if you're going to, if you're going to seize, seizes, fleeting opportunities, you cannot pause, wait, beg for permission, ask your boss, what do I do now? You've gotta be able to step up and, and make a decision and go for it. And that's, that's, I think that's. It's difficult. It's easy to say on a podcast, very difficult to create that culture, but when you get it right, when you find that sweet spot as we sort of did in Basra in 2003, where people are able to do that, you get a really high performing team that can really be flexible and respond to very difficult circumstances. we do train them at Sanders, we do do a lot of talk about mission command, and we talk about how do you create that culture? How do you lead it as a leader? How do you create that, that, that ethos in your team, that enables, doesn't matter how, how junior you are, if you know the answer to the problem, then you can put your hand up and get after it. Mm-hmm. How then has, in your tenure at Sandhurst, how has the leadership. Principle changed because I'm sure that even the Army recognizes an evolvement when it comes around to leadership styles. And that's something that I think will lead us nicely into how corporate leadership styles are certainly changing. But take us through that journey when you were at Sandhurst. Well, I don't think, I don't think this is my general, I think Sandhurst fairness has been, as has constantly evolving. It has to, and I think, if you, if you were to say in big handfuls, it's probably gone from a more directive style of, of leadership to a more inclusive style of leadership based on the, on the, on the, on the complexity and the environment we're praying them for. But also a number of, a number of other factors. And I think there are things at San that, that don't change the, the history, the heritage, the ethos of the place that it's been the same as it has been for 200 years, which is right. But some things that have had to change and evolve over time. And, and that's, that's what what is taught there as in, the subject because it's change changing environment that we're preparing them for, but also the way things are taught has had to change. And, and I think I saw my predecessor had gone through a very rigorous review of training at Santis, and he had come up with a real need to change our approach to how we develop, young people based on the fact that they, the generation coming through was very different to my generation and therefore, leading them the same way that I was led wouldn't work. Or it would work, but he wouldn't get the best out of them. And so we went through a very, very, so we went far more of a Develop, develop them rather than shouted them. Style of learning, where I was, where I was taught sitting, sitting in a row of poly pop chairs with a, with a rifle than you, you were naming parts. It was far more using, using blended learning. Using apps, using, using far more of a digital approach. Cause that's the way this generation learned better, those sorts of things. Sleep, we, we, we found that they weren't getting enough sleep cause we were asking'em to do, not, not silly things, but we were asking'em to do things that kept them out of their beds at night. Cleaning or whatever it may be, or polishing or, or studying, whatever it may be. And they weren't getting enough sleep. So they weren't, they weren't performing up to their best, they were doing too many black miles we call them, whereby they were putting too much Doing too many miles on the, putting too many miles on their legs that that they didn't need to walking from A to B. And when you add on the physical development they had to do, it was putting too much pressure on legs and we were having too many lower limb injuries and that sort of thing. So we, we got far more scientific about our approach through blended learning, through understanding the effects on the, on the physical performance, on the mental performance. And we developed the way we train. And I think it's still, it's still developing now. We're constantly evolving. But but yeah, that, that was probably a big moment. It wasn't me, it was my predecessor. He did all the hard work. But it certainly, certainly reaped its benefits. I know that there are a lot of memes out there at the moment, and it's probably, I probably get them because I like them and then I get more. But you have this video clip of the Boomer being asked to do something that's outside their job description and the boomer going, well, I, I don't normally do this, but yeah, sure. Send it over. I'll give it a, I'll give it a go. And then you've got the Gen X saying you realize that I don't do this, but listen just send it over and I've got some time before five. I'll try and take a look at it. And then you've got millennials saying, I don't do this. And then you've got the Gen X, gen Z just literally going, Nope, putting the laptop down. And it's like, and, and I know that it's a huge stereotyped exaggeration of the generations, but there are remarkable changes aren't there in the way that each generation processes has a tolerance attitude. And I think. I think it's about staying in touch, isn't it? As much as possible, like one hand on all the time to these. And I see it in my family with my nieces and nephews. They are the millennial generation, and I, I kind of love their refreshing attitude to things and they say no, a lot easier than we certainly send 10 to. I'm Gen X by the way. Not gonna speculate where you sit, but I'm just gonna say Gen X, you could pass for Gen X, Paul. I, I don't know what the one before that is, but there's two, there's two, there's two ways you can approach it, isn't there as a, as a lead today? You can and, and I, and I, and I was, horrified is the wrong word, but when I, as I was leaving the army, the, the, the, the youngsters turning up at the front door of an Army Foundation college at Harrogate were born in 2006. I mean that, so this generation coming through, There's two ways you can approach it. You can either a call them woke and snowflakes and, and, and, and moan about, what they're like and, and, and say that, Jesus, it's not the same as it was when we were little. And, you can be that, or you can learn how to lead them and how to get the most out of them. And as you quite rightly say, study them, what makes them tick? And how, how do you inspire generation Zed? It could be a different, it could be different set of characteristics that you probably needed to inspire the millennials or whatever, whatever came before. But so, so I think I'm, I'm in the second camp of the second camp. You've just gotta learn how to do it, how to get the best outta them. And if that means adapting your leadership style, then maybe that's what you've gotta do. So as a leadership consultant, what is the most common issue? And we can talk about several, but what is the most common problem? Client comes to you and says Paul, I need help with this. I think probably the most common one is, is, is is getting a high performing culture in their organization. How do we, how do we change behaviors to get more out of the, out of the team? And I think this is a sweeping generalization and people will be throwing things at the at their iPads now, but a lot of organizations talk about values. Some of them, even, some of them even have values listed on a wall or in a book. But very few can really, if I talk to their people, very few can really tell me what they mean and what do they mean in terms of particularly behaviors and in the terms of leaders leadership behaviors. And I think. People just don't, don't, don't, don't get it. So I think one of the things that we, when, when we get a cry for help, one of the first things we do is, is go in there and, and firstly, if they haven't got them, develop, co-create with them a set of values that means something to their people. Firstly, if they have got values look at, look at translating them. What do they, what do they actually mean? What do they mean to the organization? And do that with everybody. Cross section of, of the, of the team. And then once you've got that work out, what are the, what are the behaviors that really underpin and bring those values to life? And actually, once you get that right, that, that equals your culture, values, values and behaviors consistently delivered, gives you your culture. And that's probably the biggest thing we do. I mean, not long ago, a certain senior minister had to resign clearly because of allegations of bullying and with, I mean, I, I follow an awful lot around bullying on LinkedIn because, and I'm gonna say this quite candidly, I think work environments are just an extension of a school playground sometimes in the fact that you've got some toxic behaviors, you've got bad bad what's the, yeah. Bad actors. You've got, people who generally aren't in it to win it. You've got people who are trying really hard. You've got people that are isolated, and, and it's just the playground again with the cool kids and the pop is, and let's all go down the pub lunchtime and, and. And, and finding safe spaces to be themselves where they can't be themselves in that work environment. And then you've got other people who genuinely can't be their authentic selves because if they were, they, they don't feel that they would fit in. And then you've got other things like neurodiversity on top of that, you've got other things, gender. And there, there's literally, I find sometimes, even if you highlight an issue in a work environment, the amount of people that said to me, nothing gets done. I've mentioned it. No one wants to own it. No one wants to take responsibility. So then you just times that by like thousands going on everywhere. And so in the end you end up with this quite apathetic workforce that have got so much potential. That just don't really trust that it's gonna change. And then you've got one eye always on looking for a better opportunity, which is literally jumping into the grass isn't greener on the other side, and it's just another environment that's talking a good talk about values and so I, I ju I, I'm a little bit disenfranchised, I'll be honest with you. I, I'm one of these people that's always tried to advocate for having it better. And then sometimes I've even found myself being subjected to some pretty poor treatment because I've maybe stood up for other people or advocated for the doing the right thing. And those people are the biggest weapon a business has to trying to bring about good culture and good change. It's a, it's a, I'm sure you must have come across this, where, and I've summarized in one sentence, really all of those horrible cultures that are going on in the same space. Not nice, is it? No, but I think where you see it going really, where, where you see it working well is where an organization. Has, has defined, and let's not, let's not call it, let's not call it values, although it is values, let's just call it rules, club rules. This is how, if you want to be part of our team, if you want to join our team and be part of what we believe is a really good team, these are the rules that we have to, that we have to play by. These are the rules that we all believe in, and therefore we will hold you to account for, behaving in, in line with these rules. And I think that's what, that's what a leader should, that's what a leader needs to do in any organization is set the boundaries. These are the boundaries of behavior that if you wanna be part of our organization, this is what it means. But then you've gotta be consistent about delivering it. And, you've gotta model it yourself. And you've got to ensure people are held to account. What you can't afford to do is to start, allowing people to get away with stuff or, or bend, bend those rules or whatever it may be. You've gotta, you've gotta hold them. Now, if people choose. To go outside those boundaries. If they choose to behave in a, in a way that is, is not acceptable, then you've gotta step in and, and take action, have you not? And that's sometimes where people, for whatever reason, find it difficult to do. So. I, I take it then that you, you offer the business, the roadmap to some, a framework to bringing about a better culture so that the business, your client can then have that higher performance and then see development of increasing performance. Cuz ultimately all businesses want a good engaged workforce to have good performance output, right? Yeah. Yeah. And one thing, one thing CCL does, it's, it's a, it goes back to what we were talking about before about the journey. It doesn't, it doesn't believe in going in and doing a sort of, a day on, we're gonna do a day on culture, and that's it when we walk away and you've, there's. Done. So what what it does is it makes sure that it, it, it sticks with you. So it'll go in, it'll, it'll, it'll do, do a workshop or a, or a couple of days, help you develop your leadership behavior, charter code, whatever it may be. Or, or understand your values better. What does it mean to be high performance? But then make sure that we come back and check in, be it two or three months later or, or, or have a proper, to make sure that you are doing what you said you're doing, that your people are, responding to the new direction. So I think that's, that's gotta be the way, hasn't it? It's gotta be, it's just not a one stop, it's not a one shot weapon. It's about making sure that you are held to account for your change, which it is. And there's a lot of there's a lot of talk now around empathic leadership. Is that something that you work with as well? What, what do you mean by empath? I haven't heard that expression before. Authentically. Well, it's, yeah. Well, I guess really it's tying into servant leadership in the sense of, I, I get that it's pivoting now. It's not a lead, you're not a leader just because in corporate, you have a, a position of authority. Servant leadership is about always, I mean, I have the same view, do my people have what they need whether it's emotionally, physically, technically, career wise and, and all of those sorts of other elements. And I don't ever consider that because I am in a more senior position that I'm more senior to them. I just consider that I have the ability to get more for them or give them more than what they might initially understand they might need. But empathic leadership is more about getting more intuitive around, what do people feel, what do they, how, how they feel that work can impact their output. And, and understanding different types of diversity like neurodiversity, which in itself is a huge scale. And then understanding those different styles of managing people with different. Personality traits. And I definitely think one of the biggest mistakes people make in leadership is they try to manage everybody in the same way. They have a style that's fairly good, fairly neutral, and everyone gets managed in the same way. And that doesn't work either, does it? No, no. I think, I think people are, I think organizations are, have had to, have, had to evolve to that after Covid, haven't they? I mean, they've, it was a big, it was a big lesson for a lot of people that a lot of organizations that you have to really put your people first. People are the, are the highest priority if you're going to lead them through very difficult situation. And I think people now are understanding that, servant leadership, putting people first is, is, is, is the way to go. But it's very easy to say, isn't it? It's one of those things that trips off the tongue. We all say, yeah, put your people first. People are our main asset, and we are the same in the military. We always talk about it, but sometimes we don't necessarily practice what we preach. It still comes down to we've gotta make our in year target or we've gotta do this, we've gotta do that, and therefore, shut up and color, get on with it. So yeah. Do yeah, I think it is definitely the way to do it, but I think it's, it's one of those things that's very easy to say and more difficult to put into practice. Treating, treating everybody as an individual is, is is is a nice, nice to have. But, you spend a lot of time, you spend a lot of time I'm not make, I'm not making yourself very clear, but you could invest a lot of time, couldn't you? In in, in just studying people and, and making sure you, you react to different, different characteristics, what have you, when as a senior leader, sometimes you've gotta get after. The strategic directions and all that sort of thing. So I think again, that lend right is, is is really difficult. Yeah. Yeah. And, but I, I agree with you. I think that's the way to go. Definitely. I I, I also try to have regular one-to-ones, even with my very junior staff. And I, I like to advocate a policy where if they're line managers there, they're there. If they're not, they're not, they sh it should be fairly open, should be fairly transparent. Because I think if, I think when, as a, a senior person shows an interest in a less senior person, the less senior person tends to feel really comforted. And there's a, there's a lot of really good feelings that come out of that. Like, oh, they really wanna know what I think and they really wanna hear what I have to say. And, and that, that's very, very powerful, isn't it? If you've got a good, healthy relationship with your direct report structure, I think if you don't have a good relationship with your direct report structure, that can have complications around transparency with a little bit of Negativity there, but Covid taught us, like you said, quite rightly, that people realized that they mattered and they were very quick to speak up. And it has stimulated this huge movement, hasn't it? And a huge body of thought and action now around better work-life balance, for example. Yeah. So, it's the Gen X and the boomers actually, that are less likely to put their work-life balance as a priority, whereas the millennials and the Gen Z. I'm more likely to say, mm-hmm I'm, this is gonna affect my mental health. If I have to work six days in a row, can't happen. I need my time off. Sorry. I don't want overtime, I don't want the extra money. Whereas a Gen X or a Boomer would say, yeah, sure, if you need me, I can give you half a day, and sacrifice lunch with the wife. Yeah. So, so everyone's, I think, a lot better at speaking out. Certainly the younger people, they're, they're a lot better at speaking out about what they need. I was gonna put a question around that, but I haven't got one. Well, no, I, I mean, I'll, I'll pick, I'll pick you up on two things there if I may. So, the first, the first thing was about, and you're, you're absolutely right, but a, a, a senior leaders, having that emotional connection with, with, with, with people is absolutely, should be, should be the aiming point. But people sometimes don't have time to do that. If you're a senior leader, and I get that. But sometimes it doesn't take, it doesn't take much to walk down a corridor and, and just talk to people. Maybe learn people's names. Mm. Maybe, maybe just know a fact about their personal life, which they can bring out. There may, maybe it's the name of their husband or, or whatever it is that has a huge effect and doesn't take much time or effort. But it's about, it's about presence, isn't it? It's about, it is about you being able to get away, get away from your computer screen and go and talk to people and, and have an interaction with them. That doesn't take much. And, and I think a lot of senior leaders don't do that, if I'm honest with you. Mm-hmm. And then your second point then about about gen, gen Z and, and and this new work balance. And I, I sort of get your point, but I think we've almost gone too far the other way now, and I think. This horrible term hybrid working, I think, I think still think organizations are really struggling to understand what that is, what that looks like. Yeah. And I don't think necessarily Gen Z knows what it wants or what it needs, and I think we've gone too far. Yeah. The answer is aren't gonna work from home. Oh, that's not necessarily good for the organization. I think sometimes you do need people to come together to interact. Mm-hmm. You do need, you're not physically at work. How do you get the mentorship that comes from seeing others around you doing stuff? Yeah. Mm-hmm. How do you get that example from senior leaders? That example that I had from my platoon sergeant when I first joined, I wouldn't have got that over a, over a Zoom. Do you know what I mean? I moment, it's slightly exaggerating, but you getting my point. Yeah. So I think, I think we're in this sort of, we're in this quite difficult space at the moment where, yeah, some people have gone too far. Right? Everyone's gonna come back to work. I don't care. Mm-hmm. Five days a week, nine to five. That's not really the answer either. But there is a, there is something in the middle. We haven't quite found the sweet spot yet. No. And I think that sweet spot's gonna vary on industry. Yeah. And business culture and for example, one of the most recent bits of information that we have from our recruitment survey is that the percentage of people looking to leave their current job matched the percentage of people that felt disengaged from the company's values and mission. And then I made the connection, I thought, well if, if they're working from home, then how does that affect a person's ability to feel connected? Yeah. And then you put on top of that, they're now calling it this kind of presence this work presence where. Where those who are present and can be seen and visible are going to be viewed as working harder, being more a company person likely to get the promotion than somebody who's choosing to not be as present and is seen and as visible. But I come from a an industry in the physical security industry, for example. Those people who wanted to work nights in the majority do not want to work under a constant leadership structure. They enjoy the autonomy, they want to work alone. Many are suited. But it, it's open to exploitation. And then we knew that those people who were working alone and unsupervised and I were isolated and felt more isolated. And then you combine the circadian rhythm and its impact on the body with mental health. And then you have a further compacted issue. It's not straightforward, is it? To try and get the balance right. No, but, but is is that, is that not now? The part of the art of leadership now is, is, is understanding in, in your particular organization what, what does right look like? Where is that balance? Where is that sweet spot? And not just accept what you're given basically. And it goes, you, you made a really good point. It depends on, depends on what the organization does and how it's constructed. And, and I'm sure many people out there are doing it already, doing it hugely successfully. But my personal experience over the last year or so is people are still really struggling to understand, what it's all about. And, and, distributed teams working from home, comes with, comes with real pressures as well. I mean, I, I, you talk, talk to some young people who, they're constantly on their constantly meeting after meeting after meeting at home. And before you know it, they're working eight till eight, behind their screens because people just assume that they can just do everything. Yeah. Whereas you come, come to work and you actually have a proper rhythm where you have breaks and you have opportunities to, to mix with people. So the grass is not necessarily greener because you're working at home. It's, some people are finding. No, and I, and I was laughing then because you just made me flashback to a meme that I saw where a guy rubbed peanut butter on his mouth so that the dog would lick it and then he could go The dog, the dog's licking the peanut butter. I it's, I heard that one. Don't try this at home, everybody. Yeah, but the, but the dog was obviously licking this peanut butter, which, as dogs and peanut butter don't really work cuz it takes them ages to get it off, doesn't it? And it, it's all a bit tongue, tongue, tongue. But this mouse was going all over the floor and it just made it look like somebody was still at their desk. Nice. Yeah, I know. But. No, to your point around art of leadership being the art of understanding what does right look like? I think that's the biggest take home, I think for anybody. And that's what makes it such a fluid, there's no one answer for everything. It's, it's going to be about continually risk assessing in a way, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Now, you've, you've also, you're an author, you wrote a book, Paul. Yeah. Take us through that. Why did you write a book for goodness sake? I mean, was it easy or was it just something you, you, you, like Even Michael McIntyre said he had to force himself to sit down and get in the zone, and he had a nice window and a Big Mac, and you can, you can he, he, he wrote a great autobiography, but, the pressure was on. How, how was it for you writing a book? Well, we wrote a book and I say we, cause I had a very talented ghost writer with me who who helped me stayed live, sorry, I, sorry. I cut along stories while I wrote it, while I was still serving, while I was commandant scientist. And it was we were approached by, by Penguin to say, can you, can you as an institution write something on, on, on leadership? And whatever reason, at the time, we were very keen to, to let people understand what Santos was all about, because there were some real myths out there about what Santos does. And the myths were about who can go there and what happens when they get there. And, and I think their sort of myths were around, you need to, you need to have been born with a silver spoon in your mouth and been to the right school, the right university, to, to, to get in. It was like a sort of like a public school type thing. And what happens there was, no one really knew what happened there, but it's, it was sort of, Like clouded in secrecy and what have you. So, so the, the army was quite keen for us to write a book that, that talked about sans, that talked about as we talked about before, it's about potential. It's not about, it's not about entitlement or anything like that. It's about if you are good enough, doesn't matter what background you come from, you can go to Santas, but you have to, you have to, you have to, be good enough fact you have to get past election. And so we, we, we wrote the book and it was basically translating what we do at Santis, the basic skills, the basic fundamentals of leadership that we've all learned going through that amazing place and translating them into life skills that everybody could learn from, that everybody could, could find useful in their day-to-day existence. So, for example, we just talked about, tidying your rooms, getting your kit, getting your kit squared away. Making your bed properly in the morning as having that discipline. We talked about we talked about empowerment, we talked about mental health, resilience. We, we talked about servant leadership. We talked about creating, own leadership, shadow, stuff. Stuff that we take a knee, which was a, an expression we use a lot in the, in the military. Take a knee means, think, think through what you're gonna do before you make a decision. Just have that pause. Lots of little things like that. Which, which which, which hopefully were some use to people outside. Wow. So the ti in your rim thing, I mean, that has turned out into a huge mental health doctrine now in the sense of feeling that sense of achievement. So incredibly good leadership principles of ownership and just feeling like the little wins every day. But what is creating your own leadership shadow? Ah, tell me what that's all about. Well, the shadow you cast, it's about this presence bit. It's about what, who, who you are. Your, your example. People, people will look to you as a leader at any level. People will look to you for, for, for, for the example. And your leadership shadow is, is who you are. Who, how you turn up, how you react under pressure, how you behave when, when you know the chips are down. Moral, moral courage, all those things that And the expression is, what shadow are you gonna leave? What, what's, what's, what are people gonna remember you as? What sort of leader are you gonna be? So it's, it's that sort of thing. Yeah. And, and, and whether people are stronger, than before you turned up. Because there, there used to be this old-fashioned thing where, managers used to worry if they went on holiday in case everyone did really well. And then God forbid, the, the, the big finger comes down from below and says, well, they can clearly do without you. So I don't need you. Now, we all know that's different. Now we know that people need leadership. And now it's about going on holiday and knowing that your team can thrive and being confident that you have put everything in place for everything to be swimmingly. Well, it's a huge transition, isn't it? And not all leaders feel confident, and not all managers feel confident, but that, that, that it's going the right way in the sense of no one should be having to check their emails every day that they're on holiday. In, in fear of, things going too well or not well enough. It should be, you should be able to take that break. Rest is important for managers and leaders, isn't it? Yeah, I think it's about, I think it's about role modeling, isn't it? I think, the, it goes back to our conversation we had about values and standards and what have you. If you, if you role model the values and standards as a leader your people will, will see that will follow you. And your, your point about work ethics, it's really, it's a really good one because, if you are the sort of, and again, this sounds cheesy, but if you are the sort of leader that sits in his or her office till nine o'clock at night, working away others will look at that and think they've gotta be there till nine o'clock. if you've got the, the strength to say, right, I'm gonna go home at six o'clock, so I wanna put, I wanna bath the kids. Then they'll feel empowered to be able to do that as well. So, role modeling, role modeling behavior. Yes, I had such a good manager. Oh, one of my last managers was so cool. And I remember I, I'd picked up something while I was off and he said to me, you realize, don't you, that you are gonna be setting that example for your direct reports, that if they see you picking something up outside. I then realized I had his trust and confidence that I didn't need to pick something up on my day off. And that meant the world, those little things where there's an expectation and then you get another boss, and he's working all the hours and he's sending you emails at three o'clock in the morning, all that's kind of stuff. And you think, oh, okay, different environment. I've got to adapt. Because if I don't go along with that, and, you can see the difference in the output of different feelings and sentiments. To your point about Engaging with people walking around, bumping into them, saying, hello. I know we discussed Colin Powell's leadership principles. He advocated strongly walking around campuses. I don't think you call them campuses, though. Forgive me. Military bases. And and he advocated just bumping into people and talking to people. We all know that was about accessibility. In fact, Bob Monkhouse has a legacy of remembering the names of everybody he's ever met in his life, remembering their partner's names, their pets and children's names. And he was just known for this impeccably engaging experience like you were remembered when you were with him, which was, it's a nice legacy to have. Before we finish up, just one more thing, we did talk about this in the pre-chat about how. Children should be taught leadership or the art of leadership, much earlier and much younger. Take us through now for the next generation, why that's gonna be critical I'm not sure. Sure. It's so much leadership, although it's part of it. I think it's more life skills in terms of I think kids perhaps at school in particular, the focus has become too much on academic achievement. You could argue. And we've, we've lost some of that ability to impart life skills, those skills that will be useful for them in terms of getting a job creating that ability to prove themselves in front of a potential employer. It's more than just having academics achievements now. It's more than just having a degree. It's about what do you bring necessarily as, as a, as a person, as a character. I think and, and I talk to a lot of my mates who do hire people and they're saying, great, that everyone's got a degree, great that people have got a levels fantastic, but what else have they got? We're looking for that. The rounded individual. So I think personal view is that I think we can, we could, we could do more in terms of giving youngsters a bit of a head start at school. And I think a a lot of the skills that people don't necessarily like this, but a lot of the skills that we learned, and whether it's in the police or the military, a lot of those basic skills that we'd got at a very young age stood us in very good stead as we went through our career. And I, I'd like to see some of those in, in for all, for all our people. And it's not national service. It's not all those things that, again, people start throwing things at the screen. This is just about picking out those key skills. That everybody needs to make a success of their, of their journey, of the journey ahead. And the younger you can give it to them. I think they're better. I've always been pro national service though. Well, I you're, you're laughing. But I remember being in Greece fairly young, sort of 20, I was 21 there Cyprus actually they do national service in Cyprus. And I just remember thinking, what a great idea, that at a certain age you, you all gather as a community of a certain age. You go in and you learn all these skills and then you decide to stick with it or come out. I dunno, I've never had a problem with it. Well is there, is there a big sort of against then? I don't think it's a, I mean it's, it's a bit, it's a bit sort of, it, it, it rubs people up the wrong way. And when you talk about national service, cause they do see going back to the fifties where you do two years and, it was, it was. I presume some people found it very unpopular. I'm with you. I mean, I, I don't necessarily, I don't think we could do it now. Even if we wanted to, we wouldn't have their resources. No. But I think there were some, there were some good things about it mm-hmm. That you could take out and repackage and deliver in a different way that wouldn't be intensive as national service, but would, would give people the fundamentals, I can't think of a better word than that, that allows them to perhaps just start their life journey in a better way. Yeah. Better, better prepared for, let's be honest, it's a pretty, we're in a pretty chaotic, challenging, volatile world, and it's only gonna get more complicated. Yes. The best set our kids up for success. Mm-hmm. Sure. That's gotta be, gotta be a good thing. And I don't, I don't necessarily think, and I'm not, I'm not having to dig at schools because the schools are not, not necessarily resourced to do it. They, they, they're focused quite, on, on exams. So maybe there's, maybe there's something else that could come in and provide that. Yeah. Yeah. National service light, let's call it that to keep Yolanda happy. Something like that. Well, I, it's easy for me to say that now. I wouldn't be of that eligible age. But I'm going back to the sort of things I was doing back then. And yes, it would've been a bit disruptive. I would've had to have found another DJ for the nightclub I was DJing in. But ultimately there's a huge acceptance isn't there, that you step out and then you step back into whatever you were doing. But you know, it, I don't think it's ever gonna happen. So many great takeaways, Paul. Wow. Thank you so much. Really some great tips, some, great takeaways, tips and advice in this session. So thank you so very much for your time today. Much appreciated and good luck with everything in the future and transforming all of those businesses that need your support. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much, Yolanda. Thank you.

1:00:08

We love Thursdays.