EP 096 Paul Evans CEO Carlisle Support Services: 'The Life of a CEO in challenging times'

Paul Evans, Chief Executive Officer at Carlisle Support Services

Paul joined Carlisle Support Services in 2015 as Managing Director and was promoted to Chief Executive Officer in January 2019. During his tenure, he has overseen the transformation of the business. With over two decades of experience in the facilities management sector, Paul has worked his way up from the front line and is passionate about ensuring that the company’s strategy aligns with its employee-led and customer-centric values. 

As CEO, Paul leads our experienced senior team at Carlisle. He is an operationally and commercially focused leader who ensures that Carlisle remains committed to being recognised as the industry’s "most trusted partner." This commitment is evident in the company's transparency and honesty in all its operations. 

In addition to his role at Carlisle, Paul serves as the Vice Chair of the United Kingdom Crowd Management Association (UKCMA). He has also been Co-Chair of the Living Wage Foundation Recognised Service Provider’s Leadership Group and served as an Executive Officer of the National Association of Healthcare Security (NAHS) from 2020 to 2023.

Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

0:01

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Yoyo: 0:49

Hello, this is Yolanda. Welcome, welcome to the Security Circle podcast. IFPO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers and we're delighted to provide meaningful education, information, and certification for all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference to our members mental health and well being. Our listeners are global. They are the decision makers of tomorrow. And we want to thank you wherever you are and for being a part of the Security Circle journey. Well, today I'm very excited. We managed to get there eventually. I have with me today for your listening pleasure, the CEO, Paul Evans of Carlyle Support Services. Paul, welcome to the Security Circle podcast. How are you doing?

Paul: 1:30

I'm good. I'm good. Thank you for having me. Looking forward to the next 30 minutes in terms of discussing a broad range of topics. Yeah, so let's go.

Yoyo: 1:40

How are we going to get it all in? Look, I was particularly interested to talk to you, especially in light of the disturbances that we have had in the UK around the rioting. It affected you, didn't it, as a CEO, for your business in the type of approach you wanted to take to reassure your employees because they were on your front line there. Take us through what that was like for you as a CEO.

Paul: 2:06

Yeah, I think it's obviously like any crisis, that happens. And obviously we had COVID, which was a big crisis, but this also is a fast moving crisis. It was probably more the civil unrest and disturbances, and also widespread. It wasn't just in one area of the UK. So I think from a CEO point of view, the biggest thing is that you want everybody to get home safe, and you want everybody to be safe at work. probably unique in the fact that most of our customer base is public facing. So whether it be hospitals, railway stations, stadia, public in terms of obviously local government and central government establishment. So a lot of our staff are out there. And I think that was the biggest thing is to make sure that they felt that they had the reassurance of the business, really. So we. We had, crisis calls that were called, in terms of that were chaired by myself. And then obviously in terms of making sure that our customers, and in fairness, I will say that, and I probably like the, the public response to the civil unrest, which obviously in terms of, uh, you saw that the public weren't going to put up with this. I think it was nice that equally, our customers really took care of our employees. Um, so we had a lot of decisions, specifically one big retailer. he literally paid for people to get a home at the end of shift and looked after them and made sure that they were safe as they came out of stores. Sadly, uh, positions of authority always get challenged in this time, when there's any sort of disturbance or unrest, we had, um, racial abuse towards security officers, we had some death threats made to security officers. yeah, it's not nice when you look back in terms of what it is, but I think I was at an event yesterday, uh, looking at the policing and crime strategy for a specific area of Manchester, well, the Greater Manchester region, and it's so pleasing to see how many people, and I think that there's a little bit of a momentum, uh, sort of moving on from the civil unrest, but a momentum that, you know, I think the public do want a safe, a safe country, and I think the public do want to take some ownership, and I think that'll lead into some of the things we might talk about for the future of the security industry, but the biggest thing about that civil unrest, was that it was about making sure, in terms of our employees, our security officers on the front line. We're able to feel safe and supported, and touch wood. I'm really pleased to say that everything, went as it should have done to plan, however, you don't really know how it's going to go to plan. I think every day, every crisis call was about what intelligence have we got? we're blessed with some of the, people who we've got on our board, in terms of Nick Holdworth, being our director of counter terrorism. People will know Nick from the protect duty and the work you've done with Fegan, previous to that, he was a very senior police officer and in terms of work with the counterterrorism unit, but it's also got a very public order, policing background. And we've got a couple of the senior police officers that were in our senior exec. I think it's pulling on that experience really to make sure that we're not. We're not missing anything and across all areas, health and safety, HR, right down to making sure finance are briefed in terms of to make sure that we're aware of what we might need to spend in terms of how we get people moved around and after.

Yoyo: 5:11

There are elements of the security industry where we know security officers are not looked after. So it's. Really good to see the leadership principle coming out here, certainly in relationship to the customers, the clients, and how they look after security officers too. In fact, in general conversation, Paul, I had people say to me, Oh, we've got staff asking, how, what are we going to do to help them feel safe and everything like that? And they weren't being supportive as employers. So I think what you've talked about is just so good to hear. Especially for a sector that isn't widely known for that kind of care, what do you say to other CEOs when you talk about, the importance of making the right decisions at the right time, because certainly getting Nick Oldworth on board was a really good score.

Paul: 6:01

I wouldn't want to sort of say that I get it right all the time in Carlisle, so I think I've got to be mindful of, don't want to come across that it's all utopia and there aren't any challenges because I think anybody, I think I've said this over many years. I've been nearly, it's November will be nine years, in this chair, leading this fantastic business. I think when I started that journey, though, it was all about trying to do the right thing by the people that we look after. We have a very clear. Why statement a very clear purpose and that is to create rewarding, safe and enjoyable work opportunities for our family members. I think if you've got, and there are some great CEOs out there, I would look at people in terms of that admiration for some people that I aspire to follow. The biggest thing is to make, and we've heard a lot of this phraseology around people before profits, and that as a CEO is a challenge. you've got some CEOs who are on, companies that are listed. You've got some that are obviously might be on a journey of whether they're looking to, be bought or to acquire. I think for the biggest thing for me underlying, it's still making sure that the decisions that we take, and we took a decision earlier this year to remove subcontracting. I will say to you the benefit of that, not only operationally, but the welfare benefits by frontline staff. We've got people, and this might sound really very basic, but in previous worlds, we were quite silo orientated where we, we'd work with a subcontractor on a specific project. What this has done by removing it is it's brought the family even closer together. And, there's a gentleman, Michael, who's one of our security officers in Liverpool who previously worked very much on a specific site, the Liverpool Arena. But he's all over LinkedIn now showing that he's working over at Huddersfield, at Manchester, at somewhere else and that, by removing that, which was a big challenge for us in terms of removing subcontracting, it's created more opportunities for people really to go and get better experience, better opportunities to get promoted. Going back to your original question, I think that The real thing for me is about trying to. Yes, be sustainable. You've got to run a business that can return. And I think that's a realistic in terms of, we don't make a massive, we're not like a Google or an Apple making 50 percent margins. We are all in a challenged market. I think some of that's our own doing and that's, I think that's been a long term sentiment of me. I think we've. Cannibalized our industry for the wrong reasons in terms of people have undercut, undercut, and we are where we are. but I think at the back backdrop of that and I saw a post from not actually security CEO But a cleaning CEO was walking away from some business because they wouldn't pay the real living wage and equally we've done that this year We've had customers who have basically said I can't afford the real living wage and we've said well You stand by your malt and I think that's probably what I would say to other CEOs is You Be very clear as to what you, and your business, but probably more that you as a CEO want to be known for. I would hope that whilst I've got no doubt that there are probably people who would say Paul Evans, that, but I hope if when I retire, they would effectively say, yeah, but he did stand by what he signed up to. And, we've signed up to a number of things and we've got some real interesting projects coming up, that will hopefully not only just be within Carlisle, but. Some of these are we're trying to really support the industry to try and change and get better because I think that, I mean, you know, this, that effectively it's what an amazing industry this is. I mean, it's, I go to, uh, many, uh, social events, whether I play football or I'm refereeing or do something, and I tell them what I do for a job. And people, and even yesterday, there was somebody there from, the road safety unit, who obviously looks after tragic events on motorways and on highways. But when I explained to them that my, my week in, the advance of that was going to a hospital, was then going down to, obviously, a transport hub, was going to Eurotunnel, was, I was going to tell him what's good. It was like, wow. And it is, it's a really varied, challenging, but varied sector. And I think that's the message that I think probably I'd, also say to CEOs is collectively and through things like the skills board. Now we've got a responsibility and I think the ESG agenda, is definitely picking up more traction. I see ESG agendas and reports that are written by ESG managers. my only other thing to CEOs is how much they really own that as a, as an actual living and breathe in some of those statements that are in ESG reports. And as you get into the corporate world, you'll see annual reports that are written, but are they written by the actual CEO or are they owned by the CEO? And I think that goes back to that being true and authentic, that authentic leadership is probably quite important. I personally. I would hope that any of our staff, on the front line, A, can get a hold of me, which they can. My mobile number's openly, easily accessible to all 5, 000 members of staff we've got. And, they do ring and ultimately they get a conversation. They might not always be able to get the matter resolved quickly, but I think that authentic leadership is probably the final bit that I would say. around in terms of what I would say to fellow people, be true to what your morals are and be true to actually in terms of delivering that and be visible to delivering that.

Yoyo: 10:56

Your employees were at Alder Hayes Hospital, weren't they? At the time that the children in Southport were admitted with a media frenzy, I'm sure, that they have to deal with. What kind of You know, even though I come from the frontline myself, I can't imagine what it's like to work in that environment. how do you get involved?

Paul: 11:16

And it's the team at Alder Hey are a superb team. It's not the first time that they've had to deal with, a real serious incident, sadly. and the nature obviously of what Alder Hey do, very similar to Great Ormond Street, which is not one of our customers, is that they're dealing with children who are obviously in terms of coming, to that environment. A very distressed position, not only the children arriving, but family members, relatives, media, friends is, I think i've said this broadly about being a security officer in an NHS environment that it is probably one of the most challenging and i'm not saying that security officer, duties aren't challenging other sectors, but I think there are different degrees of sector and That team, who have been commended by the Trust, and will be commended by Carlisle, we have an internal award scheme. I don't want to, I don't want to give anything away here, but, they've, been very much, uh, recognized for how they absolutely dealt with, what was not just a couple of hours that went on for a period of time over shift changes., it also brought in extra deployment for other contracts that needed to support it. And yeah, and it was a very, emotional time, but one that was professionally dealt with. I think that's why you have business continuity plans. You plan for this, you do desktops. And ironically, you just mentioned Nicole was, but Nick's doing a lot of disaster recovery workshops and emergency planning workshops with actually with our NHS customers, where we're, we are literally playing out, tragic situations that effectively will need to be dealt with. Good. I think it's like anything in life you, I did my, as you know, I did my door supervisor license again last year and you hear the life saving stories of people in that room and you think, I never really want to have to use a defibrillator. but the amazing thing that our industry does do is it saves lives and keeps people safe. And. Yeah, the team at Alder Hey, as with many teams, we then had to deal with the, disturbances that happened after it, but the team at Alder Hey were truly outstanding and yeah, they'll get my full, commendation when appropriate time comes around at our annual awards.

Yoyo: 13:22

I hope as I sit in many judging panels, I hope to see, broader, nominations for excellent works. It's always really good to

Paul: 13:31

That's, uh, that's a real, uh, Well, it's the first year I play compliments to them for doing this, but, the security and fire excellence awards, the fire and security excellence awards this year, we managed to get the category of security officer of the year into that. You couldn't believe that actually you had this real grand gathering of over a thousand people and we never had a category for security officer of the year at the biggest event for people. I know, obviously. There are many different awards categories, and they do great, events, they do great, things. So you've got OSPA's you've got Fire Security Excellence Awards, you've got National Associated Healthcare Security Awards, but to get it, to get that category on there, I'm really looking forward to the awards evening when that comes around because that really is what typifies an awards evening for me, getting the actual security officers. To be on the stage winnings. I mean, no, I don't want to decry people who do great jobs at contract management level or security director level or in house security expert, but actually that should be the top category. That should really be the one.

Yoyo: 14:33

Yeah. I wrote for a security buyer, an article about this very subject because I talked to a lot of the other judges and I am a judge for the Security Fire Excellence Awards and quite often the OSPAs. And we, we just want to see the right people getting the recognition. And quite often the front line, which is very diverse and multicultural and socially and economically very different to,, the people that sit in that room., I think it's great to have the focus in the right direction and the spotlight on the right people. And it's really nice that you recognize that I'll probably see you there, actually. Yeah.

Paul: 15:09

we have, we've nominated us a few of our front line and they will come and join us on that evening so they'll be part of our table. So do come over. I think the one thing I would say about, one thing I would say about these awards evenings, and it's something I've, again, I've mentioned to Martin at, Martin. The Oscar is, and I know that he does it, he probably does it in a different way to other people, but the big award evenings, there's a little bit of a, this is what we need to try and make sure we get outta this. First time this category, you don't always get the stories though you get, Oh, these people have been nominated and the judges have obviously done a great job nominations. But if you're sitting there and I know they don't know,

Yoyo: 15:45

yeah,

Paul: 15:45

28 categories to get through or something. Yeah. You want to know, don't you? You want to know why that security officer, because yeah, some of the stories, Oh, I don't think I could. And I genuinely, whilst I started on the front line, I don't think I could deal with some of the things that. Come into when you see award nominations, because we obviously have Carlisle Superstar and you sit there and you just think, and the, worst investing. Worst investing. I was gonna say worst thing, but it's probably you go to people and you, we don't tell anybody who won, even though obviously I've just mentioned all the, we don't tell anybody won. the individual awards. The people. Yep. Because I just, you'll have seen it on LinkedIn. I just rock up and it's like it's a bit like, I wanna say silver, a black surprise, surprise. From, from our. And then you speak to them and they genuinely just go, but Paul, I was just doing my job. And you think, wow, what an amazing person. What an amazing person to just think that that's part of their job and that they dealt with that in the correct way. But yeah, yeah. So anyway, it will be an amazing evening. Uh, and like I said, whoever wins that security office of the year, I hope that there's a legacy from anybody who wins an award. if there's a way of prolonging that legacy of then doing something with that security office of the year, maybe the SIA can do something with that individual or really use them and the skills board could use them as a real sort of showcase to try and bring new talent in and we can use it as a recruitment opportunity as well.

Yoyo: 17:08

Yeah, absolutely. And I think pointing Nick in the direction of the hospitals, like you said, and giving them that exposure of the benefit of all that amazing knowledge in his amazing brain is also a really good idea. Talk to me about why Carlisle is different in relation to its values and vision because it's a competitive market, isn't it? Like you said, how do you stand apart?

Paul: 17:33

We have four very distinct values, and these haven't changed in eight years or nine years. And the reason why we have those is that they are there as a barometer. Whilst we've got the purpose, these values are very clear in terms of what it is. The first thing is, One really is caring passionately for all. So, and these should never be written on a wall or a book or a cup. They are, but they should also be able to be given evidence to in our annual report, showing exactly how we've delivered on these values and examples of how we've done it. So caring passionately for all. That's very much about bringing in things that will enhance the lives of our family members. So the people who obviously work for us. The next one is very much customer at the heart. We don't choose to work with many customers, surprisingly 150 million pound turnover business, but we've only 70 customers. That's quite important to me that effectively I've got the ability to speak to all of those 70 customers as CEO. It's not just me though now, but there is a whole, series of different management layers that support that and that support our staff. We've got a lower, than average, and it's significantly lower, I was, shocked when, I won't again say who it is, but a large FM business told me what their annual staff turnover was, and I compared it to ours. We've got a significantly lower, staff turnover rate in our business, we've got some real amazing, we've got a person coming up for 40 years service next year.

Yoyo: 18:51

Wow. 40

Paul: 18:52

years service in Carlisle. and actually the business has only been going for 41 years, so they've been around since the day one. So, uh, really interesting to surprise that individual next year when that comes around.

Yoyo: 19:05

Well, don't surprise him too much if he's been there 40 years.

19:10

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Paul: 20:29

I suppose the other two values are very much in terms of sector based experts. So I have an open pledge. We do some amazing work. People like at the security Institute will pay for anybody to become a member of the security Institute, whether you're a frontline officer or whether you're, we see that as a real opportunity for you to build your network and become, somebody who can actually get a bit CPD, but the sector based expert value is that anybody can come and knock my door. Ideally it's picked up through job chats and personal development plans, but. We make an open request that if you want to be invested in, and you want to do some additional training, it's, that's what that value is there for. We want to create the next generation of sex based experts. And I think probably the final one, which, as probably when I go back to, not saying we're, we get it right all the time, but we have a fourth value that is, this is more, ideological or methodical is we have what's called promise based culture. So if somebody makes a promise and if you've ever studied anything about a promise, a promise comes from the heart, not from the head. Ahead typically is your to do list, heart is that you've made a commitment to do something. And we've made a commitment this year that we'll train everybody in the business to be, counter terrorism trained and don't just mean security people. We've got a whole division that does cleaning, that does FM, that does retail merchandising. And we've made that commitment that everybody in the business, even the finance team or the marketing team or people that are at head office, Everybody will go through cancerous and training because everybody has responsibility to that. So that's a big hairy promise because we've got to get it done now. Got to take people out of contracts. We've got to pay them their time to be trained up. So it's got a cost impact on it. But by the end of the year, we want to be able to sit there and say, we made a promise to actually made a promise to Nick and to Fegan that we would do this. I hope that every other cleaning company in the UK follows suit and because clean is. Or anybody who's in a public space has got responsibility and ability to impact counterterrorism. You sadly look at what happened at Manchester Arena, that person passed by so many different people, that could have obviously helped or whatever, and unfortunately it didn't, but therefore, we've all got that ability now with protect duty to come in, to sort of, to look at, what is a responsible or relevant person? For me, a relevant person is anybody who interacts with public that could actually be aware of looking out for. See, check and notify, obviously action counterterrorism.

Yoyo: 22:45

In fact, I was having the very same conversation with Mike Bluestone with Core very recently, and he said it's about training security eyes everywhere. Do you know what I mean? And cleaners are, They are that kind of like fifth layer, in a sense, because they're always in the same place, usually at the same time. They spot things out of the ordinary. They are very much a routine, in the way that they do their jobs. But also, it's a bit, it's a bit difficult, isn't it, as well? Especially when we know there are antagonisms around cleaners being paid more than security officers. That's pretty tough. That's been around for a very long time. And I had A very, very good security officer of mine come to me years ago when I was doing a site visit and he said, I've just found out what the cleaners on and it really ruined his day. But cleaners still have a very important job. what can we do about that when we see that happening?

Paul: 23:38

Well, there's a very simple thing we can do, but this is a, this just never happens when I just spent a couple of years in the last three or four years going around trying to convince everybody to do this. But the problem is, is you always get somebody who wants to act outside of it. If we all stopped taking work on at rates that we really shouldn't knowingly know. And I got asked a few months back on another podcast, what I think the pay rate for a typical, and there's no typical security officer. So it's always hard because you would argue that you've got London waiting or you've got different types of work pattern. But it should be probably, in my opinion, it should be probably 2 more than what it currently is today in terms of it should be significantly moving towards 40 and 15. Yeah. And I will say this, and it's actually, it's a customer we're talking to, but I'll probably also, in fact, I'll refer back to another customer that there was, there was a customer who came to us about three, four years ago, uh, and said, Oh, we want to work with you. I genuinely had an opinion of them because I knew that how they'd grown up, and they didn't have the greatest of rep. they were potentially seen as somebody who treated suppliers badly. Bye bye. They're now, and I won't name them, because I want to come back over that bit about them in terms of their previous, but they are now, in my opinion, they have changed completely, because of their suppliers that they brought on board, being, we were one of them, and we said, look, and they said to us, well, what does it need to look like to be a better contract? Yep. And actually, they also had, Internal experts who managed to convince the senior management team, who's, this is a major, international business, but security play a vital role. And I keep saying to people, we were all clapping for key workers, weren't we two, three years ago. And I keep saying, don't forget that mornings when you opened up or the evenings, when we opened up our doors and we were banging kitchen plates and stuff or pans and stuff. And it's trying to make sure. That those customers recognize the role that security can play, but there's a, there's another logistics business at the moment who is expecting security officers on their logistic sites to search warehouse personnel that were paid four pounds more than, and I just say to people, how does that ever? So you've got warehouse people paid 15, 16 pounds and you want to be paying nearly just under the real living wage, near enough minimum wage. Doesn't stack right with me, that doesn't stack right at all. But what I did, what I go back to when I said I wasted a lot of time is, I went round and even now with the subcontract, the removal of subcontracting, I went round most of the top CEOs, and the sad news is that we all see it. Whenever it's, even if, if you take a stand in the sand, somebody will come in and go, well, I'll take it on at 12 pound or I'll take it on at 11 pound 44. Or, and that's, I suppose that's the problem. And I said this to the security industry authority when I was having the chats with them about their future and what they need to really take ownership of and what can they take ownership off? Cause I know obviously Michelle and Heather have got their own challenges around the legislation and what it actually, in terms of their constitution and what they can actually do, but. Equally in terms of that opportunity is that we've got to move the market. We've got to try and move the market because the people do do amazing jobs. And whatever we can do as CEO collectively, we can change the market. And I've said this many times, the top 30 security companies control 81 percent of the private security industry. So if the top 30 really wanted to change, we all sat and read our ESG reports. And we all sort of sat there and said, we're going to do this. We're going to do that. But, as I said, I'm, I'll retire knowing that is just Paul Evans view of Tehupia and I wish one day it would change, but I think there'll always be those challenges where people will undercut or come in and try and do things differently.

Yoyo: 27:29

I know other people, I'm sure you do, that think the same way you do, but in addition to that, I'm seeing a sea change. There are other people like Leigh Turner, for example, who are literally shining a spotlight on the, those really dark, bad practices. in fact. I think recently that and all the WhatsApp groups and how they're recruiting, very inexperienced people to go into a uniform wearing the very basics, no training to go to a location that requires security. This is what we call the bottom feed around, you know, it, the light is going to start to shine more on bad actors. bad practices. So I think now is a good time to, to work towards that alliance that you're looking for. Cause I, I know others that feel the same way as you do.

Paul: 28:17

Yeah. You're right, there are some real voices now coming to the forefront. And like you said, some activists who, and also make sure that they're treated in the right way. Cause sometimes these activists can get a bad rep sometimes for calling out the bad practices. But, and I will reserve judgment, but I also see, I do see a seed change in the SIA. They've got their Operation Empower and Operation Benchmark. This is two operations, that they've really come out publicly. And one is to go after looking at the training malpractice, which is obviously in terms of that has caused real issues of people doing training courses. We've all seen from the BBC expose. Doing training courses within one day. And then obviously the other operation is to go after the issues around subcontracting and pay rates and challenges around obviously cash in hand and the work they're doing now with the HMRC And I think you'd think there wouldn't you sit there and go how hard can it be? And you're great that you're now hearing that it's possible, but how hard can it be if somebody's got an SAA license? Then the likelihood is they should have some PAYE coming in and therefore linking those two databases. That's yeah, and I think there's more that we can do with going off on a tangent, but it's more on governance we can do with data. We all talked about big data about five years ago, our big data, this big data that and you can now thankfully start seeing some of the dots of data getting joined up and for the good side of it as well because I don't want, if I'm a security officer, if I'm that individual who's worked for 39 years as a security officer and has seen obviously all of the transition from pre licensing into the current day, if you're an amazing security officer, you want to get rewarded. You want to, and you don't want to then just see that the next person who comes in who's Not got any experience with you comes in and doesn't there's no differentiation. That's another as well. That's another one of my challenges in my own way. How I map this out is I've got a real desire and even working with that. I've mentioned this the essay a few times It's like a bus pass thing for me after you, after your fifth renewal, it should be free. After you've done 15 years in this industry, it should be a free license to reward you for it. And I know that I know Michelle said, well, we can't afford that, but I will carry on saying that it should be caught some reward to stay loyal and be in this industry for a period of time because, and it's not a massive number. I mean, Yeah. A reduction.

Yoyo: 30:51

Yeah.

Paul: 30:51

And then the flip side to that, which is I'm trying to work with some of my customers to really get this off the ground, is that if I'm a newbie and I'm really green and therefore, but you have worked on that site for 10 years and you're, you've got all the attributes and you've got a five star rating. Why can't we come out? Why can't we come up with a way that on your SIA license, there's a way of scanning it and says, I'm a five star officer. And therefore, expert, sector based experts. Absolutely. And there's some credence to that. That actually, wherever you go, you get that. Now, again, there's a lot of utopia in there, but I don't think with the data, I don't think we're far away. Okay. From being able to look at when you present your license, and we've moved obviously to digital licenses now, so there's some data in the actual plastic license. Actually being able to draw some of that data down. And one of the biggest things for the business approval scheme that they are re, reigniting, refreshing, bringing back out the approved contractor scheme going to be called the bars. Really allowing us to use that data, controlling it. It can't just be sent anywhere, but somebody work comes into an interview. The first thing they can do is touch a reader and all that data can flow down. It shows me all the companies they've worked for, where they've worked, the type of environments they've worked in. Qualifications on training. Yeah, I have to draw a line on subjectivity because somebody will think one good officer is a bad officer and the actual fundamentals of what that data is, you could see it, you could actually see and then we get into a whole bit about vetting and we get counter terrorism and we get into this bit about knowing the people at your footprint. So much can be done.

Yoyo: 32:31

I remember when I worked for McDonald's when I was 15 and we used to have these badges and when you first started, you didn't have any stars, but you could see the people were the five gold stars, right? You could see that they were experienced. They were training other people and you could see, I was so chuffed to get my stars. My first star, my second star, my third star. Imagine if

Paul: 32:51

you're a member of the public, because this is the bit we've got into, this is the bit we've got into. You just stole my

Yoyo: 32:54

words there, fella.

Paul: 32:56

This is the bit we've got into the security industry and. What was it? Who did a survey? Somebody did a survey. And one of my other roles is I'm working with the Sports Ground Safety Authority. I'm representing them, obviously, in my role at the UK Crowd Management Association to support how we get better quality around training and standards for stewards at football matches. Yeah. Now, stewards are obviously just aligned very quickly to security officers, so you could argue that they're all doing the same sort of type of, even though they're not doing the same role for licensing purposes, but they are responsible for safety of the venue and safety of people. The bit around that bit around public perception, there was a survey done of spectators and people who visit football and they actually thought stewards were licensed. They actually thought it was a licensed job being a steward. So the perception, the greatness about that and what we're going to do in that stewarding world is very similar to the SIA. When you see a steward at an event now, they will have a badge hopefully in the next two years that will be visible. But we've talked around, and this is why I think this is a real thing for public perception, public reassurance. Because you're right, we're of an air that you remember those five star badges.

Yoyo: 34:05

Yeah. So I'm thinking if you remember the public and you go up to somebody for help and you can see that they are an expert or they've got five stars, you automatically feel more reassured that what you're telling them is someone's got to action it and it's not going to be a Manchester arena thing where you don't have the confidence whether that person's really, going to be able to do the right thing, you know, perception is everything. Right.

Paul: 34:27

Absolutely. And the more they'll flip back and go back to the full circle where, as you said, what we're trying to do and where, what, how do I go back to, I'll use that example of Michael up in Liverpool, who is an expert, clearly as he's moving around, working at Aintree, working at these venues and doing all this work. How rewarding is it for him that he gets the peer recognition? That actually I've got the experience I know I come because and therefore the newbies look towards the five star and go, but what you've got in our way that we make this up. And this is going back to this bit about dynamic, how we get it dynamic. So that a customer will always say,, I want 50 people and a lot more to be five star. And then you paint the bell curve of the reality of that. You can have a few five star, some of them, some we need to obviously deal with. But in reality, the five stars, there should be some, as I said, some reward for them. That could be recognition, could be peer recognition, could be whatever, but it equally could be some monetary. And I, that's a real dynamic getting a customer to say, well, actually, yeah, because they might not budget for all 55 stars, but great news. If we got 55 stars, how great that contract would be.

Yoyo: 35:38

It's a good USP as well for winning business and for tendering. The fact that you recognize this subject matter expertise and within your employees, it's not just because they're a lead security officer or because they're a deputy manager. You know, they're recognized for their expertise and especially in relation to the location or the industry. Like if you've got security officers working on nuclear power station sites, you would want that.

Paul: 36:06

Yeah. Absolutely.

Yoyo: 36:07

Or the National Grid. You would want that there. You would want that recognition. And it's neat, Paul. You've buzzed me just talking about it.

Paul: 36:17

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

Yoyo: 36:20

Well, listen, there's just one more thing I wanted to ask you. It's around the establishment of the business by Lord Ashcroft, who created Crimestoppers. What an amazing legacy to have attached to your business.

Paul: 36:32

Absolutely. and yeah, I mean, Crime Stoppers was created on the back of the Tottenham riots when sadly, PC Keith Blakelock lost his life. nobody would come forward out of the estate. So Michael, obviously paid for, at that time, two people to manage a 24 hour help phone in an office. And that's the, how Crime Stoppers was then funded in terms of it. It then became, known, He's done an amazing work in that area. And I'm really pleased to say one of my board directors is Mark Hallas OBE who's the CEO at Crimestoppers. We do a lot of work trying to support the good work, that they do. But I think it's interesting because that, that in the final bit, and this is not just, this is not a Carlisle thing, but I'm trying to do this for the industry is that, My dad was a police officer. Many people will know that through many different podcasts. I think there's a role that the policing and security, can come together, over the next decade and really work closer together. there is still a negative and Professor Martin Gill, published or is about to publish a report on, policing and security collaborations. And sadly, I think one of the stats in there, I think seven or eight out of 10 senior police officers do not feel the security industry has a role to play in policing. I've got a real thing to try and change that. I keep telling people that stat because I really do want to try and change that because I think. We've got numerous, and even yesterday I was having a conversation with somebody, at the event. We've got numerous examples where rank and file officers at constable level and sergeant level really do feel the support of having a really qualified, trained security officer alongside them. I think there's sometimes a bit more of the senior, police officers who still need to see that benefit. And I can say that because my dad was one of those ex coppers who, when I told him I was coming to the private security industry, put the phone down on me. Genuinely, put the phone down on me. So I thought I was bringing shame on the family, but that void in between there, between security and potential policing, it's a challenge for public. We've seen it. And as I said, going back to the civil unrest, what we were started at, in terms of it, we've really seen the members of public, really value, they want a safe country. There's now 3. 14 security officers for every single police officer in the UK. will continue to grow. You look at the dynamics of, and I've done the, we've been doing this research, Steve Granger, who's one of my ex senior police officers, who's in my cohort with Nick. And we appointed Alan Gregory, who was the Assistant Chief Constable at the British Transport Police in the last few weeks. I think there's a real opportunity for us to build some of that support work to policing, to get the trust of policing that security officers can do amazing jobs, and can actually stand alongside. There's now some integrated security and policing trials that are going on. I think it's a real opportunity and that builds on that legacy of, you know, If you look at what Crime Stoppers did 40 years ago by coming around, I think that'd be my desire that we could create an integrated security and policing model for the UK.

Yoyo: 39:27

Yeah. And it's worth mentioning that more than 151, 000 suspects have been arrested as a result of Crimestoppers. So there's some amazing stats if you go to the Crimestoppers website, but also you have evidenced incredibly well why the police into security transition is really critical for the security industry and for its customers because of how they add that value. Paul, it could be a good time for you right now. Policing, happiness. Scores is the lowest ever. I think you'll be seeing a lot more people making the decision to leave the service before they're 15 years, because that's really the deciding line. If you do the 15, you stay in. If you don't, it's worth leaving because of the pension contribution. So that's really important. Look, it's a pretty tough job for policing right now. And I certainly remember when I left the police force, I realized that the pack outside the police was a lot bigger. You realize actually you're part of an even broader community moving into the security industry. I've never regretted it. It's not been easy, but I think with that story, you can probably convince a lot of people that coming into the security industry will add a lot of value to their career as well. Cool.

Paul: 40:39

Yeah, exactly. Absolutely.

Yoyo: 40:41

Well, what can I say? It's been a pleasure. I always love podcasts where I go in at a certain level of happiness and I leave even happier. It's been a real pleasure talking to you. Love what you're doing. Huge fan. And thank you so much for joining us on the Security Circle Podcast.

Paul: 40:56

Thank you for having me.