EP 107 New Year, Time for a New Job? Leigh Welsh Founder of Vidible Talks About Human Centered Marketing

BIO

I spent 10 years in the talent & recruitment industry, building my personal brand and video content expertise from the ground up, having had no qualifications or professional background. 

I believe the human element of a digital age I've grown up in is losing touch and I'm on a mission to change that.
A decade working with blue chips, startups and everything in between has taught me that most corporates follow the same cookie cutter narrative & it's harder than ever to standout from the crowd.

At Vidible, we believe Videos, Podcasts & Events create deeper connections with customers, offer authentic insight into a company and showcase the people behind the business. (And the numbers back it up!)

We transform how brands are perceived - less artificial intelligence... more human intelligence!

If you'd like to be a guest on my female leadership Podcast or want a refreshing perspective on marketing, hit me up. Leigh@vidible.co.uk

Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

0:03

If you enjoy the security circle podcast, please like share and comment or even better. Leave us a Fabry view. We can be found on all podcast platforms. Be sure to subscribe. The security circle every Thursday. We love Thursdays.

Yoyo: 0:45

Hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. IFPO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, and we are dedicated to providing meaningful education, information, and certifications. for all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference to our members mental health and well being. Our listeners are global. They are the decision makers of tomorrow and today, and we want to thank you wherever you are, whatever you're doing, for being a part of the Security Circle journey. Thank you for your company today. We have, as always, a very special guest, someone I've been trying to pin down for a little while because he's so busy and entrepreneurial. Leigh Welsh is a former recruitment expert. This is why he's here today, but he's now transitioned as a brand marketeer that focuses on building employer brands, making employers more desirable to go and work for. Welcome Leigh to the Security Circle Podcast. How are you doing?

Leigh: 1:45

I'm really well Yo Yo, good to see you. I know it's been a little while trying to get this in the diary, but, I'm really pleased to be here and chat to you about all this sort of stuff. I think we've got some great topics to talk through.

Yoyo: 1:56

I can't go without saying that how I found you on LinkedIn was because you were putting out great comedic videos on how people were literally screwing up. Looking for great applicants, give us a high level overview and to why it was important for you to do those visual videos to get that point across. I

Leigh: 2:17

think, putting it quite simply, we're now in a world, surrounded and completely engulfed by AI. My worry is that businesses go down the tick box exercise route of chat GPT, churning out content, and we're seeing it on LinkedIn day in, day out, right? I like to think they're quite easy to spot, but then you look into some of the metrics behind the posts and you think, well, maybe they're not easy to spot for everyone. I've built a career on personality and who I am as a person. When you work in recruitment, typically clients work with you because you are you and less than you. the company that you work for and also because you're dealing with what is considered a sales product in a sales industry, we've got to remember that recruitment is a people based industry. The whole, video element of it and branding and showcasing the people behind the business is what has empowered me to, do what I do now,, and really put those people at the forefront of what they do.

Yoyo: 3:21

Your video sang to me because I just know that there are a lot of employers out there that don't quite know what they're looking for. I've been in those conversations where you're looking for somebody with a set of three skills, for example, and. I've even been that voice in the room that says, do we not think that maybe we should put adverts out to see what applicants we get for each of those three disciplines, rather than ask for somebody who's got a light touch across all three with a major discipline in one, for example, your videos, which is screaming to the fact that the client. In most cases, genuinely had a lot of uncertainty about what they themselves were actually looking for and were almost gambling on the recruiter being able to find the right candidate as if to magic them out of nowhere.

Leigh: 4:10

I think there is a reason why so many recruiters leave the industry in their first couple of years and the successful ones stick at it and really get to know what it is they're recruiting and understand the technology. I used to always pride myself on saying that. I could get past first stage interview for any role that I recruited. I'd get found out at second stage, I could get through the could this person do the job that they're recruiting for? Yes, I know enough about the role that I could, put myself forward for it. Now, then it comes down to the recruiter to truly understand and try and depict what it is that the client wants. Because what we've got to remember is most hiring managers have their day job. And especially in the tech industry, they may be quite technical, architects, for example, will understand the nuts and bolts behind the technology that they're working within. But from a hiring perspective, how many interviews do they actually sit through? How many times do they sit with a, HR director or a board to actually talk through what it is they need in that particular team? And it can't just be technical boxes ticks. In Salesforce, can they code apex? Can they, put together flows and processes? How do we actually understand where that hole is within that team? And then how that hole is filled with the right person. Once you then throw in budgets, budget restraints, the world we live in today is quite tough. A lot of businesses are suffering in regards to revenue and budgets and that sort of stuff. We're then in a world where we're trying to fill a gap with, three roles rolled into one because of budget restraints. And then knowing that the candidates are also, not having the best experience in the market today because there's less roles out there. There's more candidates applying. There's more volume for internal recruiters to go through. That video that you referenced there, that I put out on LinkedIn, that was me trying to have a bit of a moan at the market, but in a way that wasn't just me having a moan in the market. I'll try and find the funny side of anything as you've probably seen Yoyo. I quite enjoy, you know, putting a bit of a comedic spin on things. But the natural reality of what we're experiencing today is many roles trying to be rolled into one.

Yoyo: 6:33

Over the course of my career, I've had to recruit for a number of different roles and security is a very transient role. There's a lot of people, moving out, moving up. I've always enjoyed the recruitment process. When you get that amazing candidate walkthrough sit in front of you or into a virtual meeting, you getting good feelings and you think this is the future of my team. This is a feature of the business. It's such a great giving. Feeling, having gone through a period at one stage where I didn't have to recruit for a while, I remember a star performer wanted to resign because they'd been offered a better job. I just remember the first thought that went through my mind was, Oh God, I've got to recruit again. I'll go through that process because there's the internal process. There's the paperwork, there's the filing, there's the sending in the job description and there's for the recruitment team. I realized as soon as I'd started that process, I had those good feels again. I am the sort of person that should be recruiting talent, no doubt about it. That first thought of, Oh God, here we go again, made me realize that a lot of managers that do need to recruit, see recruiting as a solution. They don't like fixing a problem. They don't really see it as building and nurturing the development of their team and the process and the company. It's a problem to fix.

Leigh: 7:50

That's not always a choice as well. Yo, yo, it's you've got to imagine a lot of these hiring managers in these positions are, going through the similar struggles that most people are facing today, which is I've got to worry about my own job. I've got my own pressures. I'm trying to keep everything afloat with a limited. available. I've got less staff available to me. There are people resigning there's people and it's quite a choppy market out there at the moment. We've also got to acknowledge that hiring managers don't turn around when that person resigns and goes, Oh, I've got to recruit. I don't want to recruit. I hate doing recruitment. I just want to do my day job. I don't like people. It's not that case at all. It's that they are trying to juggle all of these different things. And suddenly this is now another problem that has come across their desk that, they've got to find a solution for, as you say. The best way we can tackle that is really trying to think about going into that solution or that recruitment process with candidate experience first. It has to be at the forefront. It's not about How much can that candidate sell themselves to me to make them worthy of my position within this company? It's how are we putting our best foot forward as a company? How are we leaving that candidate? Whether they're a superstar candidate that I want to hire or whether they're a candidate that doesn't quite fit in. tick the boxes from what we need to hire at the moment. How are they going to be talking about our business when they leave our process and down the pub on Thursday night, and they're talking about how their interviews are going. We know, bad news travels really, really fast, and it's absolutely paramount to have that candidate experience at the forefront.

Yoyo: 9:33

Let's use this segment as an opportunity to talk about the major fails in recruitment. All areas and I'll kick off by saying, look, I've got in my pocket, for example, a couple of recruiters who happen to be women recruiters. My experience, the last time I was in that market looking was that. This is could be controversial, but I found that the women were much better at looking at the person behind the CV rather than just looking at the CV. During that process as well, I got to really understand the development of a relationship in that kind of process. Not everybody gets it right. Professionals can see recruiters aren't experienced. They can see or determine that they're quite young. That's a huge criticism, isn't it, of young recruiters. Because everybody's out there to make a buck. Everyone's out there to have a career and do well in life. But let's face it, not everybody is made for being a recruiter. There are certain skills that are needed. And they're quite unique set of skills, aren't they? How would you determine those set of skills and how are they sometimes misinterpreted?

Leigh: 10:39

Yeah, well, I don't think that they're necessarily gender based in that women look at, you know, the person behind the CV more than men do. I think you've typically had a good experience with those two recruiters that you've worked with. It's not a sales job is what I would say first. And your managers or your directors within a recruitment business will keep bleating the sales drum because there are metrics KPIs, numbers sitting behind targets, right? Which would naturally sit inside a sales world. You get in what you put out. You're only as good as your last month and all that. That sort of sales stuff starts creeping in. I worked in a sales job before recruitment. I sold cars, I worked for Audi. A customer would come in. I would understand what they need. I would sell them a car. They would walk out. The car would go to that person and happily ever after. They would come back in a few years to change it. When you move into recruitment from a sales job, you start understanding that what was once a car that would go to a customer is now a person that has feelings, motivations, aspirations, emotions. We are working with a product now that is sometimes considered a product that has feelings and emotions and is a human. So the whole perspective on what that sales process is, or that product that you're selling is, has to change. And so the best recruiters will really understand, like the two that you've referenced just a moment ago, they will understand the person behind that CV. Because a car On a specification sheet is a car. It's got an engine. It's got a gearbox. It's certain horsepower. It's a color, whatever people have a CV, but that is just a very, very small snapshot of who they actually are. The difficulty recruiters will find is sometimes the motivation is there to understand every. candidate that they deal with. But when you're working in some of these bigger corporate recruitment environments, as I have done, it can be very, very transactional and very much a numbers game. So you've got this person on your shoulder, the good person going, Oh, you know, you need to get to know the person and really understand the motivations and give everyone the time of day. And then you've got this other person on your shoulder going, well, you're behind target or you've got targets to hit, your managers breathing down your neck to get these numbers done. And so you're stuck in this limbo of. Do I fulfill what I think is right or do I get the numbers done to keep my job and earn a wage? That can be quite a difficult line to follow. Maybe I was quite lucky in that I've always got on with people and enjoyed working with people and naturally warm to people. So targets and bits and pieces weren't as much of an issue. So maybe I didn't have to go down the route of just firing out CVs to jobs. My advice to any recruiter out there would be try and really step back from the numbers. I can assure you that the, that very moment that you start putting candidates first and value your relationships, the numbers will take care of themselves.

Yoyo: 13:52

Great advice. How have things changed? Since COVID, because back in the day, everybody was sitting at desks. There was a regular Monday to Friday vibe about most types of work. Interviews were always done in person. COVID happens and it seems that even the recruitment industry has been able to change in an agile way. It's all of a sudden become a far bigger global space, hasn't it?

Leigh: 14:17

It has, and I think it's even become, dare I say it, more transactional because we are now used to Multiple interviews happening virtually, the days of going down to the office for a specific time. I remember over 10 years ago, going and meeting my candidates for a coffee before their interview, them going into the building, having their interview coming out and having a bit of food or another coffee afterwards to talk about how it's gone. Now it's all on email, it's on text message, it's on WhatsApp. And the very quickly. Personal human nature is being, stripped away even further. You put AI into the middle of it as well. We've got automatically generated automation emails, things being put in your diary. It's very, very easy for people to. Sit behind the screen rather than going and building those relationships in person. I think that's coming back a little bit. We've seen the demand for more people back into the office now. I think as long as the motivations behind that are for the right reasons, and it's not just, our numbers are down this month. That's it. Everyone's back in the office. That isn't the solution. We want to promote and foster a culture of teamwork and people and really find that people centered approach. it has. unfortunately become even more detracted. There is no doubt that the pandemic and COVID and lockdown has had an impact on us in so many different ways as much as we like to think we're past it. I think the. Overflow from all of that is that we're even more detached. I think working from home has done great for, you know, carers and parents and there's so much more flexibility out there now, which is great. I think we've just got to remember that human element of it and not all get stuck behind a screen.

Yoyo: 16:06

Where do applicants go wrongly? I should imagine recruiters. often get let down by applicants. I should imagine recruiters aren't always treated very well, aren't always very accessible, aren't always very honest. What are the other kind of big, applicant fails that people can be mindful of?

Leigh: 16:22

I think from an applicant perspective, my number one has always been convincing, the biggest fail is convincing yourself that you're doing a job search when you're, you've gone through three or four weeks of. Failed interviews or, things haven't gone your way and you're suddenly in this black hole of just clicking apply to jobs and thinking you're doing your job search. My advice has always been to, again, getting get in front of the people that you're trying to. And LinkedIn is a great tool for that. How many times are you connecting with the hiring managers or finding people within a business that you want to work for that you may have worked with in the past or, engaging with the stuff that they're putting out on LinkedIn. People see a job search as I do a two page CV. I get that done. And then I fire it out to 10 jobs a day. Anything that comes through on my. Automatically generated emails, I click apply for and, wondering why the job search isn't going very well. The number one has to be putting yourself out there, putting out content on LinkedIn, which shows, what you know about, why you're different to other candidates in today's competitive market. How you manage your recruitment relationships should be a give and take basis, right? It should be it should go both ways. Your recruiters aren't there to work for you and you're not there to make your recruiters money. It's a two way relationship. Only when you have that relationship, will it work for you. And the more that you can do that, the Facilitate what your recruiter needs. The more you'll get back from them and it's understanding what dynamic you have. Step one has to be your recruiter really understanding who you are that is coupled with you committing to the job interviews that you say you're interested to, or interested with, being completely honest and transparent about. What those motivations are, what you need from your next role. Because the worst thing that can happen in a recruitment process is you both get to the end of that recruitment process. A job offer comes and either the recruiter hasn't got you what you wanted or the recruiter feels they've got what you wanted and it isn't actually what you want because it wasn't transparent all the way through.

Yoyo: 18:39

There's no better feeling than when your recruiter phones you and says, even if they leave a voice message and says, can you give me a call as soon as you receive this? And you just know it's news from either an interview you've been at, or maybe they want to offer you the job. Those feelings are incredibly good, rewarding eyes. Interestingly, when you were talking about, Just now, when I was recruiting inside Facebook for, young professionals, it was interesting when I asked the first question, I said, so do you use Facebook then? And they used to go blank. Do you have a Facebook account? No. Okay. We can't really proceed with this interview any further because if you don't have a Facebook account, you're not using Facebook. How can we possibly expect you to really identify with this world? It's a simple fail applicants make. Let's look at LinkedIn. It's now become a tremendous asset, hasn't it, for a recruiter to look at. their profile, get that top voice, go to conferences, speak about your subject. This is just a couple of things you can do to have a visible presence. How critical is it with your clients? For example, in the past, how often were they looking for that?

Leigh: 19:55

It's the number one thing that set me aside when it came to new business. Now, clearly the clients that I'd built relationships with in person and knew me knew I would deliver and knew they could trust me. Those kind of take care of themselves. They will engage with my stuff on LinkedIn, but they're not overly fussed about whether I'm putting a new testimonial out or whether, cause they know me. From a new business perspective or demonstrating credibility, or even, if a client wants to look up whether you're any good, just as the same way you check a Google review or a trip advisor of a place that you're visiting. It's that first tick box of, oh, okay, they've got a fairly decent network. I can see they post about the sort of stuff that would resonate with us. So candidate care, candidate experience. They understand the ecosystem and the technology that we recruit, because I can see that they're a trailhead ranger in Salesforce, and they've put time into that. And so I think that's, from a credibility perspective, it's great. It gives you an opportunity for the people that you don't yet know, put your personality out there. That's why I always am video first. I think video is the number one format, medium to demonstrate who you are as a person. Sometimes words can be misinterpreted and maybe I didn't get a great English GCSE. Maybe I'm just,, feel more comfortable on camera, but it's finding that medium that works for you. Then putting as much of it as you can out there to really demonstrate who you are as a person. And then the business, the recruit, as I said, at the start of this podcast, the recruitment business that sits behind you, that becomes a bit of an afterthought.

Yoyo: 21:38

What should applicants do better than other than, making sure that they're not just click baiting jobs. I don't want to use the word click baiting. It's not the word, but just clicking a quick apply on jobs. What can they do in different stages of the process to make themselves stand out as a great candidate?

Leigh: 21:56

There's loads and loads of information on this. You can go through the kind of seven step guides on doing a perfect CV and all that sort of stuff. I won't bore your listeners with the entire process. What I will say is. You have to start the process in a positive mindset, whether you're feeling pretty rubbish at home or things haven't been going your way, because as someone that's hired a lot of people myself and know the amount of feedback that comes back from hiring managers that,, the candidate didn't seem too enthusiastic, didn't have much energy. You can overcome a skill gap on your CV with energy, passion, drive to go and learn and be a part of that business. I think it's really, really important for candidates to be applying in your case when you spoke about Facebook and not even having a Facebook account, I think it's absolutely paramount for them to know the product or have an interest in the product that they're going to be working with. That again, can not only set you aside if you've got two candidates with the same skills, but also again, overcome those skills gaps because many hiring managers I've spoken to over the years would rather a slightly lesser experienced or, hasn't got the full breadth of all of those boxes ticks from a. skills and technical side of things, but they have the attitude and the one and the will and the drive to learn and further their career in that business. Obviously, contract recruitment is very, very different because you are plugging a gap and finding a solution for a finite amount of time, you need them to get the ground running, you need them to have everything up and ready to go. But on a permanent side of things, we're looking to grow and develop your career. If you've got that drive and ambition, that is going to You know, put you at the forefront of that hiring manager's mind.

Yoyo: 23:42

So there are a number of organizations, and I've had colleagues say this to my, to me, myself, I'll only work for a branded business. I want to work for the best, most well known organizations. there's a perception, there's a kudos, there's a status. There are going to be a Quite a thick band of businesses who maybe are less well known, who are equally as successful, who are, still in that market to compete for talented employees. How are you currently advising them to raise their. brand to be an attractive employer to the best talent around?

Leigh: 24:20

first we've got to think about those motivations what are the typical motivations for people to want to change jobs or, start a new career or a new role with a new business. And typically your Facebook's and your Salesforce's and those bigger brands, they don't pay. They don't offer any better culture or, you know, flexible working, that sort of stuff. A lot of it can come down to the, I'm proud to say I work at Google to my friends and family. And that is the world we live in today, right? You will never capture those people that are so driven on, being able to say I work at Google, that's where I want to work. And I'm going to go and, you know, chase a job in that career. Now, there is no denying that those companies are at the forefront of innovation and AI and the biggest budgets and the most exciting projects, I'm sure. But what I would advise to the smaller businesses or the lesser known businesses is how are you tapping into all of the other motivations? Your potential candidates might have, because there are so many people that don't care what the brand says on the CV. They want a really nice place to work. They want a culture that fits them, what they're about. People driven, a good candidate experience. The money, believe it or not, isn't always the number one thing. A lot of companies default to, Oh, we didn't offer enough money or that client offered 5k more on a basic salary. So that's why we lost the candidate. I can absolutely assure any business that if another business is offering 5k more on a basic salary, but you are ticking the other boxes from a flexibility standpoint, a purpose, standpoint, culture, all of the other stuff that actually taps into a candidate's emotions, that 5k, which let's be real is, a few hundred pound a month take home becomes, you know, so so way down the list in terms of motivation. We really need to tap into those motivations, and put the business. We are now looking at the people behind the business, the culture, the day in the life, the workings behind that business, rather than just the brand name Google or the brand name XYZ. Then we're looking at, what's great about this business? How can we really showcase how exciting this cyber security product is? Because a lot of people want to know. See that cyber security product as cool as a social media product. But actually, if you look at, the time money effort that's been spent on making that great, and look at what it does for society, look how it protects people, et cetera, et cetera, that can be so much cooler to the right people than your Googles and your Facebooks and your whatever else.

Yoyo: 27:12

Let's look at values. You've brought it up. It's a great area to start. How do employers need to. Change their approach with different generations, because different generations have different value sets, and these are now becoming a lot more defined than they used to be, right?

Leigh: 27:33

So values for me have always been a bit of a tricky one, because I And maybe it's just the world that I grew up in, but I always just saw values as a, an acronym on a about us page on a website that, we really stand for people and, fun and we're energetic and agile. It was just a set of buzzwords that I'd seen on many CVs, many job specs, many about us pages on websites to truly emulate values. It is ingrained in why the business was started. What the purpose of that business is, what the leadership team believe, and then what every employee lives and breathes on a day to day basis. They are true values. And then understanding what motivations again, linking back to what do different generations want from their career and what do they want to be a part of? We're now seeing, Certainly the younger generations are more interested in purpose and being a part of something they believe in rather than salary or paycheck or wage. Back in the day it was, we've ticked the value box, here's a load of money, come and do the job. You'll earn your money, you'll go home, you'll go down the pub on Thursday and you'll spend time out of work with Kind of the work to live to work argument. Now we're in a world where people want their work life to be closely aligned with their personal life. They don't want it to be, Oh, I've got work tomorrow on a Sunday afternoon. Oh, I'm dreading it. Okay, we'll just get through this week and then we'll get to the weekend. It was always that kind of nine to five vibe. Whereas now it needs to be, I'm going to work, I've got purpose, I've got an understanding of what I want to deliver. I know that I'm growing both myself and my personal journey, my experience, my career. It's all become entwined. And I think the more that we can showcase that with those businesses about how those values are aligned with the actual day to day workings of a business, the more impactful they'll be than a set of acronyms on a about us page.

Yoyo: 29:35

Absolutely brilliant advice. During the recruitment process, less experienced professionals, but very experienced professionals might have that quandary of there's a startup business looking to recruit somebody and that kind of comment startup business fills, there are a number of kind of questions that automatically arise from those conversations. What should applicants be asking? When there's a new startup, available to be able to apply for a job,

Leigh: 30:06

The term startup became very, very cool during the kind of dot com bubble. Everything was a startup and there was so much innovation and new stuff happening. And then what we later realized was a lot of these businesses were, you know, running at a loss and hiring too quickly and then letting people go. We've all been through it. I think it's super, super important that if you're considering working at a startup business, that you have first a relationship with the founder. There is that, connection that you've built that you believe in their journey. Probably not as much, but as close to as much as they do, because building something from scratch, you've really, really got to believe in it. If you think you're just going to do a startup role, because it's a startup, and because it's a job, you'll be very, very wrong. And later find out that typically, the hours are longer, the demands are higher, the pressure is higher, you're in an environment where there's nowhere to hide. You've really, really got to, be a part of this and drive it forward the questions you need to be asking around vision. Right? Because at the moment, we're a startup. We're not where we want to be. Where is where we want to be? And do I want to be a part of that? You can then obviously talk about, share options and, equity in the business, understanding where the value comes because again, Most startups won't be able to pay what a more established business will pay for that role. And then it's more on a promise base, which is in a few years, you'll have progressed quicker than you would in a bigger business. We'll be able to pay you more because you're, you've been here from the start. You'll have equity and the, all these things will pay you make sure it's realistic. Make sure that it's all good. Down in writing and it's all very, very clear from the start and you're not, down the pub with the founder on a Thursday night. And he's going, Oh, yeah, I'll look after you. And in three years, you'll be a millionaire because of this, this and this, we need it a bit more to protect yourself a bit more, you know.

Yoyo: 32:04

Where can applicants go to find out the best truths about potential employers for their worthiness as an employer? recruiters quite often say, are there a list of companies you've ever wanted to work for? Well, that's a really tough question. I always hate being asked that. So a double question there.

Leigh: 32:24

A lot of the times a recruiter will ask that because they don't know where to send you just yet. And so they're trying to think of where can I send your CV out to potentially sign a new client from a business development perspective. But also, if I'm going to be sending you to a business, then I'd like to know that that's a business you're interested in. It's usually a good thing. What was the first part of that question?

Yoyo: 32:45

My cat's walked in and there's bells. I have to put six bells on him because he's a serial killer of birds and I can hear him jingling in the background. Where should applicants go to research, employers that they're interested in working for the truth.

Leigh: 33:01

There is no better place than people that you, know, and I think that needs to be step one and you can search for a business on LinkedIn, go into the people section, go into people that have worked there. It's quite a good tool for really digging into who has worked at that business. They will give you the most honest accounts if they're people that you've known or worked with and it's a simple message to go, Hey, I'm thinking about applying for this role or I've had a job up job offer at this business. What was it like for you? How did you find it? What was day to day like? Because the problem you'll find, and we've all been through it, is you get sold a dream in the interview process because people, as we put the best version of ourselves forward at interview stage, clients also do the same, right? Oh, we're the best place to work. Everybody loves working here. Everything's great. La la la la. I can't wait for you to start. You can typically find out quite quickly that it wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. The best way that you can go and find out that the true nuts and bolts of that business is from people that have worked there that you know you have things like Glassdoor, but again, the whole review world has become a bit, say the right things. I've worked in businesses where you know, to work in that business, you have to go and do a Google review and say how amazing your first month has been. And there are incentives put around reviews and things like that. You have to again, take them with a pinch of salt. for me, it has to be from the people that you can trust in the market. If you haven't got those people, then you've just got to ask as many questions as you can at interview stage. Really try and drill down into that day to day life working in that company and then to speak to other people in the team. You would like to think that that hiring manager is inviting you to speak to other people in the team, but speak to the people that work for them. And you haven't got to say, is he really a bit of a knob, but you can say, are we, are,, talk to me about some of the challenges you've had working for that person or talk to me about. scenarios where you've not felt you've quite enjoyed the job as much as you hoped you would,, talk to me about the bad days. I want to hear about the stuff that's bad, because that's a good metric for me to understand how bad it could get. And if there isn't much of them, then it's probably quite a good place to work.

Yoyo: 35:22

That's like being on a date, isn't it? And in and on the first date, you discussing how your former relationships failed. It's just horrible to do that. No one's going to really say, Yeah, listen, I'm a really bad girlfriend. I am surprised he stayed with me as long as he did.

Leigh: 35:40

Yes, yes. But If that person spoke to someone that was with you previously, I mean, dating is a little bit different because you clearly broke up for a reason. And sometimes it's always left on the best terms. Sometimes people just move jobs and that's okay. But you would like to think that finding out from people that have worked in that company is probably the best place to start.

Yoyo: 36:03

I also tend to think that sometimes when people do start looking for a job, they've left it way too late. They've become very unhappy. They're almost kind of a different type of person to how they would have been if they were applying for an external role,, six months earlier. And I worry sometimes that you don't always see the best candidate because the situation at work, for whatever reason, it may or may not be there of their own making. Quite often, we know it isn't,, that they've left it far too long and they're now in a very high, stressful, pressured space and you can just tell that exit is the quickest and fastest thing to do and just jump into anything that's got a decent salary. It's, it's no way to go. That's no way to proceed. start looking, is it?

Leigh: 36:48

No, and the advice to anyone, before they get to that point is constantly look at your progression journey, where you're at in your career, self reflection on how happy you are in your day to day role. And if you're starting to see that taking a turn, I think there needs to be conversations internally. I would never say to anyone, just, go and do your CV and go and find a new job. a lot of times. Those solutions can be internal when it's just a, communication piece that needs to happen. If we relate it back to dating, right, you're not going to, I've been married seven years. I'm not going to be looking for a new relationship whilst I'm happily married. But if you get to a stage where you're, on the cusp of divorce and everything has gone downhill. That's when you typically look. it's quite difficult when things are going great to start thinking

Yoyo: 37:37

right

Leigh: 37:38

side of that. You can always kind of, keep an ear to the market, make sure that you're talking to the, your recruiters, make sure that, they're feeding you the market updates that don't necessarily mean you're making a jump. It just means that you're, you're You know, if that jump has to happen, you're not coming completely out of the dark and in, as you say, a negative mindset because things have all gone wrong in your, current role.

Yoyo: 38:02

A very ambitious pal of mine, when she was changing roles and she's one of these ones that would, be on a six month, gardening leave period, while she's looking for her next opportunity and I said to her, what are you looking for? And I learned from her, actually, she takes the next role. based on what she wants to be doing after that role. And a lot of high performing executive level people will think that strategically. This thought wouldn't even have crossed my mind to think, Oh, well, if I do that now, or if I do that, that next, then I can do something after that. That's more in line. Getting people to think strategically about their own careers, like you say, it's not easy to do for many people who are quite content when things are going well. Like you said, the happy marriage, you're not looking for anything extracurricular. It's good to get them to think ahead, isn't it?

Leigh: 38:52

It is, but also we've got to remember that not everybody wants to. Progress, right? And that's absolutely fine. The pressure doesn't need to come from, my wife said actually, because she worked in a pub for about four years when she left school, and she was completely happy in this pub, she was doing her job. Saving up to move out. She was earning a enough, and pretty content until you get to a point where you go, oh, I've wasted the past four years and I'm not progressed and I'm not developed. A lot of that came from societal pressure. There's nothing wrong with you working a hub. You're, you are working, you're working hard, you're earning wage, you're saving money, and you've just bought your first house. Great. But, it doesn't matter the first, acknowledge that you don't have to be moving at everyone else's pace. Right. Or, or the people around you that are going, I've just got this promotion and I've took this job because I'm going for that. That doesn't matter to everyone. For those people that it does matter to, it's absolutely paramount to be looking ahead and looking at not just what the next job looks like, but where's the end goal. A lot of ambitious people will struggle with the term end goal. Because that is resigning yourself to I'm finished. I'm done. I've got to where I need to get to, but you have to have that North Star end goal of a point where you feel like you're, you've achieved what you wanted to achieve in your career. It doesn't have to be, an award or a certain job title, just that that place of contentment, because I've speak to so many ambitious, talented people. Very, very, very successful people that still don't feel that they've achieved or content with what they've done in their career. And for me, I just find it a little bit sad in a way. I speak to those people and I'm like, Look what you've done and they're like, the next thing, the next, it's like, just, just take a moment to reflect and appreciate how much you've put into all of this and how much you have achieved. So that's probably just the other side of that discussion,

Yoyo: 41:05

it was Stephen Bartlett that said comparison, comparing yourself to others is really the darkest thing you can do to yourself.

Leigh: 41:12

We all do. And with social media, it's impossible, right? And this is why the whole mental health around Instagram came about, because it was suddenly, Lambos and steak dinners and filters and models and suddenly you're not as attractive as you thought you was. You're not as successful as you thought you was. You're not earning what you feel that you, need to be earning. The high value man and all that sort of stuff started coming out. I do think, we're coming back a little bit now. I think awareness from people like Steven and, influential people in the world that aren't necessarily singing along to that tune is important.

Yoyo: 41:48

Yeah, absolutely. What's next for you then, Leigh? What's coming up this year?

Leigh: 41:54

I am continuing with my social media. I've been doing a lot more on TikTok and Instagram, which is great. That's my personal release. sometimes a bit wonky. And I think I've spent such a long time in the corporate world that I'm able to do my more personal, funny, comedic stuff on my TikTok and Instagram. Uh, LinkedIn. It's still a place where I spend a lot of time, but not a lot of people will see me because, it's usually under the banner of a brand or a company that I'm working with. Um, I'm behind the scenes writing, filming, and posting. for me just continuing to grow Vidable. it's been an absolute whirlwind over the past year. I'm so, so appreciative of the clients that I work with. I can't believe. The reception I had coming from recruitment and into brand and marketing. I've never done a Google squared course or gone through a, marketing, graduation course or anything like that. I'm in a place where it's self taught on human centered marketing. branding the people behind the business and enjoying every single moment.

Yoyo: 43:01

I like that term, humoured centred marketing. It's really fresh and really modern. All the best for your business. Thank you so much, Leigh Walsh, for your insights around the recruiting industry. Have a great year.

Leigh: 43:13

Been a pleasure. Thank you, Yoyo.