The Security Circle
An IFPOD production for IFPO the very first security podcast called Security Circle. IFPO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, and is an international security membership body that supports front line security professionals with learning and development, mental Health and wellbeing initiatives.
The Security Circle
EP118 Joe McDonald on Security, Strategy & Staying Ahead Through the Power of Learning
Podcast Episode Summary: Joe McDonald on Security, Training, and Thinking Outside the Box
This week on the Security Circle Podcast, we’re joined by the incredible Joe McDonald—a man whose career spans from growing up in a house full of cops, to serving in the Marine Corps, becoming a police officer, and eventually leading security operations at some of the most critical infrastructure sites.
Joe shares how structured training, thinking outside the box, and embracing change have been the foundation of his success. We dive into his new book, Developing a Security Training Program, which is more than just a guide—it’s a playbook for transforming security professionals into strategic thinkers.
Key Topics We Cover:
🔹 How the Marine Corps gave him direction and shaped his leadership style.
🔹 The importance of structured security training and why it should never be an afterthought.
🔹 Why security is both an illusion and a necessity, and how organizations can reinforce it.
🔹 The dangers of complacency in the industry—from poor hiring practices to lack of supervision.
🔹 The impact of future-proofing security training and keeping up with evolving threats.
Joe’s no-nonsense approach, combined with his humor, sarcasm, and wealth of experience, makes this episode a must-listen for security professionals, leaders, and anyone who loves a great career journey story.
📖 Bonus: We also provide a direct link to his book so you can dive deeper into his methodology!
🎧 Listen now and get ready to challenge the way you think about security and training! 🚀
Or buy the book here!!
https://www.routledge.com/Developing-a-Security-Training-Program/McDonald/p/book/9781032274034
Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers
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Yoyo:this is Yolanda. Welcome, welcome to the Security Circle podcast. Could you be anywhere else? IFPO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, and we are dedicated to providing meaningful education, information, and support. And certification for all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference where we can to our members, mental health and wellbeing. Our listeners are global. They are the decision makers of tomorrow and today. And I want to thank you wherever you are for being a part of the security circle journey. And don't forget to subscribe or even better, just like the comment and share the LinkedIn post. Thank you for your company. Wow. I have a very special guest. I say that all the time, Joe, but everybody's special. With me today, I have Joe McDonald, Joseph, if he's in trouble, and we're going to be talking about his book. Joe, welcome to the Security Circle Podcast. How are you doing?
Joe:I think I'm doing excellent. Doing well. Thank you.
Yoyo:Listen, first of all, for those that don't know you, let's have a recap on your career before we dig into this beautiful and very helpful book. Where did it start for you, the security industry?
Joe:Well, yesterday, no, I'm just kidding. I started, I grew up in a house full of cops. So whether I liked it or not, I was immediately a little bit of a, at the time I didn't realize it, but I was a little bit of a security nerd at the time, but, then from there to the Marine Corps where I had to pull some security duties, with my job. And then from there I became a municipal police officer. And from there I got into security and wow, decades later, I'm here. You
Yoyo:You've literally decades, I don't want to say that many jokes. Um, don't be hard on yourself. It's been a while. But you have touched all four corners of security, haven't you? What was it like growing up in a house of cops?
Joe:Uh, not really pleasant during the hippie times, so yes, I'm that old. Uh, uh, but, uh, it taught me a lot. And I'd never, when I was growing up, I never wanted to be a police officer. Um, I was in Japan pulling guard duty for two months and I realized I got the bug. So, but both of my grandfathers and my father were happy that I became a cop. So, that's where I got out.
Yoyo:Look that, but how did they feel about you joining the Marine Corps though? Because my, my parents did not like me joining the police, but my father was from a military background and there's a little bit, certainly in the UK, there's a little bit of rivalry between the two.
Joe:Uh, yeah, my father was army, uh, during the Korean war. Um, I, I don't think it was that big of an issue. I think my bigger issue or the biggest issue in the house was, uh, fear of failing and then looking bad with all of his constituents at work that, uh, were, were in the military or had been in the military. So, um, I think he was pleasantly surprised as I was. But I found that the Marine Corps changed my life and, uh, set me down the correct path. So, it worked out very well for me. My, my, my Marine Corps career was very, very advantageous for where I was going in life.
Yoyo:Not that I
Joe:was a bad guy, just not, not that I was a criminal in disguise. I was just I was a ship without a rudder, so if, if the storm blew me into port, that was good. If, if not, I was somewhere else at the time, so.
Yoyo:So it gave you purpose and direction then that you fully embraced. How long does one stay in the Marine Corps for, Joe? Uh, provided they stay alive, obviously.
Joe:Well, um, a typical, well, who knows now, but, uh, when I was in typical Marine Corps, um, contract was for six years. Four years, uh, active duty and two years reserve duty or IRR, individual ready reserve duty. Um, so there's a lot of different ways to it. I did eight years. I did two full four year contracts, uh, of active duty. First four years I was spent in the fleet, uh, which means I was combat ready for, for my job. I had one of them weird jobs that I couldn't do on the outside world. I was, I put bombs on airplanes. I worked on weapons systems on aircraft. So TWA wasn't hiring for bomb loaders at the time. So, um, the police department worked for me. But my second four years, um, I became a technical instructor for the Navy Marine Corps. And, um, during that period, I also wrote courses. So, Very proud of the fact that I was one of the, the pro, I was the primary author of the Cobra Pilot familiarization course Outta Camp Pendleton. Uh, it was in the rewrite stage and I got tasked with, uh, doing that. So I didn't write the whole course. I don't know anything about why the rotors go round, round, but, uh, I had a. I had a team that worked underneath me that they all submitted to me, and I had to do the QA and everything on writing courses.
Yoyo:You see, now I can see the structure beginning of why, you know, having a plan is really important. Do you still meet up with your buddies that you were in the Marine Corps with?
Joe:Uh, a couple, not many. There's four that I'd stay in touch with. Unfortunately, as we're all aging, it's, uh Starting to get denser, or get looser, um, not denser, maybe denser as in the brain cells, but I don't know. We're all having a good time. We're all sarcastic. I don't know if you know that,
Yoyo:but I think sarcasm is the key to life, especially in security. I tend to find a lot of sarcastic people in security. so you start, writing training courses. Then you leave the Marines. And then how does your career progress?
Joe:I became a police officer, a municipal police officer. And during that same time, I worked, uh, in the classified security world for a defense contractor in the same city. And, um, that spurred me to, uh, realize that my education was lacking. So I went back to, I finally finished college and that, and that degree was that I have a BS in vocational and technical education, so I have a. I have a BS in curriculum development. So, and what was really nice was they accepted some of my coursework in the Marine Corps as part of my college credits, which was always beneficial because. That means it was less expensive, but, um, graduated with honors and, uh, kept on going from there. Uh, worked for a defense contractor after I got out of the police department, then I put on a federal badge after, after 15 years as a cop, put on a federal badge and was, um, stationed in Las Vegas. So there's a little area up north of here with numbers that I worked at for a while.
Yoyo:Which we don't talk about, do we, Joe? But. That's interesting actually. So tell me really then, you know, um, security professional to security professional, we don't have to tell anybody else, but why, why have you chosen careers where it's innately likely you could be harmed permanently?
Joe:Ah, that's, you know what, I never even considered that part of it. I don't think that's that's as realistic as, I mean, there's always a realism. A co worker died the other day, a head on collision, and she had nothing to do with it. I mean, we can all pass at any time. That's somebody else's upstairs rules and regulations we have to follow. But, um, I never even thought of that. I don't know. It's just, I'm not afraid of that. That was never my fear. I remember when AIDS, I remember when AIDS first came out, we were doing CPR without masks back in the day. And, and then they finally came up with these big bulky masks that probably wouldn't do any good now. Uh, you know, with the new HEPA filters or whatever at the time. But I always figured if You know, if I said I was saving somebody's life, I ended up dying from it, then that was my lot in life. I don't know. I mean, not that I wanted to die, but that's just the way it was.
Yoyo:I mean, there's worse ways to go, like by hanging, getting shot, you know, as a bandit.
Joe:Sarcasm, here we go, yeah.
Yoyo:Joe, in the foreword of your book, which we will name now, it's called Developing a Security Training Program. And I have to say it was, it's impressive and worth every penny or every cent, I should say. Um, but you, in the foreword, it talks about you always thinking out of the box. Why has that been important to you to think outside the box? And how has that led to you sitting down and grafting away at this?
Joe:Uh, You know, there's too many things in life that we just take an example. You hear, well, that's just the way we've always done it. But the reality of it is, is the way we've always done it. Isn't always the best way. So it's just, it's easier to think outside the box. It's easier to put, um, to marry something I've done in the past or something that I'm aware of to try to. Uh, put forward to change something. Uh, one of my things as, when I was a CSO is, and I learned this from, from my boss, um, that every year I would try to come up with something new. Well, and almost every time it was dealing with training. Some of them didn't work. There's no doubt about it. And when it doesn't work, you stop doing it. You claim the failure and move on. But don't keep wasting time just because you want to make it work, you know. But, um, no thinking outside of the box is important. It's, we all know that not everything works, not everything works for every place, for every time, for every group of people or for every venue. So. You have to sort of mix and match.
Yoyo:Go for a rather seasoned gentleman. You have a rather progressive mindset that's stayed with you. And that's And I'm thinking, you know, you really are going to be a vitamin shot for the security brain. There's a lot of listeners to the Security Circle podcast who just love learning. They love the learning that they have in this experience. And you seem to have really embraced learning in your career. What is that magic ingredient? Why is it some people have it and some people don't?
Joe:Well, you know, um, there's a really good question, but I would, uh, sort of change my answer to match your needs. I think it's more along the lines is we've all done things where we found it. You're standing in a post and you have, I don't know what I'm doing here. Or, you know, you're, you're, you're thrown into a new job. Now, as a seasoned person, you realize being thrown into those jobs, you're like. Embrace it with both hands and go forward. But when you're putting a security officer or a security guard at a post and you're not giving them enough information, then there's a failure that will always come back on you. So, um, I think it's just important to constantly look at where our failures have been in the past. Take ownership of those failures. Don't place them on the guy that you didn't train or or the gal that you didn't train, but learn from those and move forward and continue to learn. Um, I think there's a lot of lazy people in the world. You know, it's easy to be lazy, but I think there's a whole bunch of people. That love working. They love getting things done. They love being able to end of the day saying I did a good job. I work. I made my pay today. I did what I was supposed to do or or those a bunch of those people are also the same people that go home and read a book or write down their notes of what they did or try to figure out how to do something different or learn how to program a computer. Whatever it might be, they're constantly learning and striving for that next step in their lives.
Yoyo:I think you described that very well. And so does Linda Florence, Dr. Linda Florence. She basically said, most people know Linda Florence. She's a former president, International Foundation for Protection Officers. If, oh, hello. She's, um, she's endorsed your preface, hasn't she? She says, Security training is not a luxury nor a single event, rather it should be viewed as an ongoing process of investigation and continuous improvement to adjust and respond to threats in the ever changing landscape. Talk to me as a security professional around how that ever changing landscape has been critical to providing better tools for security professionals to deliver the best service.
Joe:Um, well, obviously the landscape changes. I mean, it has changed due to COVID. I mean, thank you biggest change ever. All of a sudden, half your people aren't at work. Um, but your facility still needs to be protected or your, you still have to take care of the policies and procedures. You have to write new policies and procedures. Therefore, you must train after you're documented. You have to train to those new policies and procedures. Um, life is change. As you know, the pretty common saying that I always have is change is the only constant in life. And in the Marine Corps we used to call Semper Gumby, always flexible. So, uh, you just have to keep making those changes, look forward to them, uh, embrace change. If you're fighting change and there's a whole bunch of people that always fight change, embrace change. Change is what's going to give you the potential of up growth. It's going to let you shine through where other people do sit on their hands. Um, change is going to let you try to figure out how to make more money if that's what you're trying to do, if you're an entrepreneur. So look at ai. I mean, a AI is a little bit scary in that it could be used against you in, in a lot of different ways, but some of the things that's going to come out of ai, I am quite honestly, the, the cure for cancer may come out of AI in my opinion. And, um, so we can embrace change. We can embrace what, what is different and move forward with it. Or you can sit there and watch it happen and complain.
Yoyo:And there's plenty of those on Twitter, X. Listen, so you've got in your head, you've got this concept, you know, doing things right, using all of the lessons learned in life. Not everyone can sit down and write a book, though, Joe. Why is it that doing a book was the key to you getting everything out there? What was your mission?
Joe:Um. So setting the Wayback Machine to when I first started with ASIS, as a member of ASIS, I was originally a magazine reader. I read, I got my, my copy of Security Management every month, and I read it from cover to cover, and I learned, and that's all I did. I didn't go to the chapter meetings. I was too busy, you know, running around and doing too many things. But I didn't see the benefit of networking, which was a, a False, false at the time, but, um, and from there, um, when I came to Las Vegas, I met up with the ASI's chapter and it was very robust, uh, met with the chapter chair, I think it was Douglas Florence at the time, um, from there, uh, Pete Siebold, and I learned from those guys, and I learned the benefit of networking and being involved in where our profession is going, even if it's at the lowly level of the Las Vegas chapter. And, um, when, um, I think I, I sat on a strategic planning for ASIS for like five years in a row, I realized that training management is important and obviously I saw that benefit or that important because I needed to be trained. If you read security management magazine every month or the old magazine and you, you, you gathered from it every month, how does the hospital do this and why do they do it? Wow, I can do that here. You know, make that a little bit of change and you're constantly learning from even those periodic met, um, articles. So I realized the benefit of security management training being so important and and certification. My first certification with the PSP and then from there to see see the CPP and and on. I don't remember how many initials I have so far, but too many. A
Yoyo:lot. A lot. Far too many. Believe it or not,
Joe:I had a fight to get those on the cover of the book.
Yoyo:Why? The
Joe:CRC press didn't like to put the initials, the certifications on the book cover. I thought that was kind of odd, but I told him how it was sort of in the security world. That's my bona fides. That's how you say, oh, well, he at least took the test.
Yoyo:And you could even say to them and challenge it even further and say, would you do a, would you publish a book on a doctor or a professor without giving them the due titles, you know, or
Joe:MD or PhD. Yeah, you're exactly right.
Yoyo:Yeah. So listen, look, my, my observation when I first received the book, thank you so much for sending it to me, um, is, is how it's set out. You've got these very Beautifully designed chapters, but within the chapters, not only have, if you look at chapter one as an example, you've got quotes from several professionals within our industry, leading professionals like Martin Gill, for example, Henry Ford is another one. And I've also got, um, I think it's Mr. Chase. Yeah, Richard Chase. Uh, another one. And so whilst chapter one gets off to a good start and you've got these really good bullet points, which make it really easy to digest a lovely sort of segments within the chapters and, and, you know, you, you, you even got these lists of things that people must do, um, in order to achieve a good output. And I'm thinking this is more than a training book. It's like a motivational book as well. It's like helping people to feel good while they're on this journey, learning with you.
Joe:Well, well, thank you. I appreciate the compliment. Um, and for the quotes other than Henry Ford, I asked my friends for a quote. So, um, Dick Chase, uh, Linda Florence, obviously in the forward and on and Martin, um, I asked him for the quotes specifically because so the beginning of the book, especially the first chapter is why do we train and let me take a step back. It's sort of like instead of bringing me a headache green, bring me an aspirin with a headache, right? I can't, if you're trying to set up a security training department or a program, it's going to cost money. It's going to cost time, money, people, uh, environment, venue, equipment, everything along those lines. You can't go into that without a good sales shtick, a little five minute elevator talk, if that's what it is. So what I give in the first one are reasons why. Uh, we need to train and hopefully whoever is reading this book and is going to try to develop a program, they can use the reasons underneath, uh, the personal reasons, the personnel reasons, the organizational reasons, the legal reasons, the profession reasons, and the failure reasons why we need to train. And they can put that into their document and hand it off to their, their CEO or their CFO, or whoever they report to, to ask for money to put together a program. And then from there, I think the second chapter is, um, uh, budgetary issues. Remember, you're going to have, don't, you don't go to the boss and say, Hey, I'd like to set up a program. And the first thing he's going to say, or she's going to say is, How much does it cost? Well, you need to have those numbers already in your head, or you're wasting everybody's time. Um, so
Yoyo:And you even, you even provide examples of types of budgets. So that literally, anyone creating this could literally copy that, put their own data in it, and deliver that as an example, in case they're worried about how, how do I make this look? What do I, what do I need to show my boss? You, you literally lay it all out, like it's a, it's a Wally's guide.
Joe:Well, thank you. But it's a very, very elementary level. I don't, you don't want to send that show that to a finance person in chapter. But I also know that a lot of security people may not have the business acumen necessary to get to this point. So all I want to do is give them a little hand. I didn't put in spreadsheets or anything like that. I made a very basic, you know, 8 times whatever equals this, you know. Um,
Yoyo:Yeah, but I think you're doing yourself an injustice by saying that because I think it's better than basic. It's well, I would say it's comprehensive.
Joe:Well, the intent, though, is that whoever's setting up the program knows you need to start here with a story. Why you need to do it. Now you need to figure out what it approximately is going to cost. And then from there you can, after you get the approval to go forward, maybe whether it be to hire somebody. I was very fortunate in my last company, I hired an excellent, um, uh, bringing up from the ranks, Tim Fehrman, CPP. He became my, uh, training director. Uh, your training management and director of security training, um, just continuing what I started as, uh, I started there as a security management and role rose to, uh, CSO, um, but still you need along the way you need those steps along the way, go to them with more than just a headache, bring them the aspirin with it. This is why we're going to do it. This is a Purpose why we're going to do it. This is the legal reasons why we're going to do it This is what it's going to do for the organization And this is approximately what it's going to cost and of course, I think I put in the book Uh, in that chapter about budgets is to go well and above. If you think it's going to cost 30 hours, tell them it's going to cost 90 hours. You need to, you need to come in like Scotty. You know, Scotty's like, I can't do it. And he does it in half the time and he goes, because I'm Scotty, right? I'll have it done
Yoyo:for you. He goes, I'll have it done for you in two weeks, Captain. Um, so. Hello, Trekkie. Um, but look, it is laced with statistics, which are phenomenal. You've even got lesson plans. So, you know, it's just nice for somebody who might struggle with putting their vision to paper. And, you know, your book does that. And I think, I, I think I think like that, you know, when I, when I know I need to get to B and I'm at A, that's great. But if I, if I don't know where I am, but I need to get to C, that can be very difficult to navigate, but you provide all the solutions here, even, even examples and questions. And it's just full of exciting information. You know, I've, I've got this section here, like entry level training, how to conduct a task analysis. Wow, like I've never seen that anywhere and it's not something that you'd get easily Googling it either. So Joe, you've done a great job here.
Joe:Thank you. Well, and, um, the entry level stuff comes down to back to a little bit of military, uh, history and back to my coursework is you have to start with why you're going to do it and what needs to be done. It's pretty simple to, um, A. S. I. Is brought out to security training, uh, security officer training. Requirements a long time ago, but they're very, very basic. They don't teach what has to be inside these sections as in depth as I think it should be. So what I wanted to do in the book is give examples. Um, and I would bet that 90, if not more, percent of the people who are reading, going to read this book to try to put it to use already are within a system, within a security program, and they're going to have to back up and write training for that. So that's why I recommend have your people write down everything they do every day. And then for a period of time, one week, two weeks, three weeks, a month, I wouldn't go much past a month and then tabulate that if they, if they do a foot patrol, you know, 100 times and they answer the phone 500 times, you really need to teach them how to answer the phone. You need to teach them how to answer the phone the way the organization wants to phone answer because let's face it. Um, uh, there was an old, I can't remember who it was, said stand up when you answer the phone because, or smile when you answer the phone, that'll be reflected through the phone. I don't know that that's necessary, but what I do know is necessary is if you want the people to answer the phone in a strict, professional, this is security command style, then you need to tell them that's what you want. And here is how we recommend you do it. If you expect them to guess on their own, it's a failure. So that's why I went from the beginning, write down everything you do, and then figure out what you need to train. Then from the task analysis, you're going to have the legal requirements, whatever your municipality, whatever your state says you have to do. And once again, I always recommend going to the minimum of that. If the state says that, um, like for instance, I'm in Nevada now, the state of Nevada says that a proprietary, um, or a contract guard must have this much training. Thank you. Well, I'm in a proprietary setting, and I want to go beyond that, but at a minimum, I still have to touch on what is required by the state, because if I'm not, I'm not doing my due diligence. My risk assessment, my, or my risk is open because of what I'm not training. So, go to what the municipality says and then go beyond that, what you need for your organization. And then always look at the policies and procedures that are already Uh, enabling the house. If the policy says thou shalt, then you need to teach what that, what shalt looks like. So. Anyway, I just try to put it all together, and that comes out in the task analysis, and then from there you can get into developing courseware, and I would also recommend to get, um, get signatures along the way. Go to legal. Have them look over the task analysis. Is there anything they want to add? My legal department wanted to go into, um, how to testify in court, though we never had to. Legal says we need to do it. That's a two hour block in how to testify.
Yoyo:Yeah, even media training is really helpful.
Joe:Media training is especially helpful right now. Because every little disaster, people say, Oh, no one told us what was going on. That's because they were dealing with the emergency. They can't deal with the emergency and talk to you and answer all your questions at the same time. But, but you're right, media discussion, how to talk to the media, how not to talk to the media is probably more important. But, Um, yes, exactly. You need to train for almost everything that occurs anymore.
Yoyo:Isn't it a shame that training always seems to be something that's in the middle of a combative conversation? You know, we all know there needs to be more training. There never seems to be enough money for training. It's, and yet it's, some people regard it as a nice to have, and yet It shouldn't ever be a nice to have, should it, Joe?
Joe:No, it shouldn't. And, um, there's no excuse for it. There really isn't. I mean, I get it. If I hire an officer to work an eight hour shift I want him to work during that eight hour shift. If I need to train him, that's eight hours plus. Um, but the reality of it is we need to train and with everything new coming on. I mean, um, who knows where our, our United States government's going to land on some of these things that I don't work for the government. I work for XYZ corporation. All I care about is how XYZ corporation wants it done. I have to be with HR. I have to deal with the CEO, the board of directors, um, legal to determine what needs to be done and in what way. And then I need to train to that. So,
Yoyo:I don't know
Joe:the answer to your question though. Why is training looked down upon as a waste of time? You know. I don't even
Yoyo:think it's thought of as a waste of time. I just think people think that because it has a cost added to it. That it's always going to, it's always going to be low down on the list. Unless something really bad happens. And I'll give an example. I won't name names. But I, I've known colleagues who have lost their jobs in a management role because their staff, their security officers have conducted themselves in such a way that has brought such disrepute onto the organization that they're serving that the management. Um, make the decision to cut the security lead, you know, whatever position and in every single case that conduct could have been prevented if the training had been given beforehand, had a conversation with one particular individual that we would probably all know. And I said, did you ever, you know, make it clear what the expectations were in, in terms of this particular incident happening? No. So therefore they've gone rogue. They've dealt with it how they wanted to deal with it. They've lost their temper and professionalism and therefore brings, it brings everybody into disrepute. You can see why I'm trying to anonymize everything. Um, and I know of another circumstance which I can talk to where the three security officers in the security guard station. For a great big distribution center, switch the CCTV player so they could put a, like a DVD player, a DVD in the machine. In doing so, they had, well, I believe they did know. But nothing was there for recording CCTV because of the age of the kit, you know, we all know kit like that. This is back in 2000 and sort of, you know, 2013. And, um, during that time, coincidentally, it was realized later that a high value Uh, bag of product, uh, walked out the warehouse by itself and it was a weekend. You can imagine very quiet. They were bored. Was it deliberate? Was it inside job? I don't think they were bright enough for it to be an inside job, to be honest with you. I think it's purely opportunistic, but Um, the point was, and the director was very, very clear, he said they felt that they were never going to be challenged. There's no way that their, their boss was ever going to visit the site and check on them and do those site visits and make them realize that actually our boss could literally rock up any minute. Let's just not be silly here. And that was the reason why, whereas I. I was doing the same job elsewhere, but I was going every weekend at random times and I was working six days a weekend night. So I made sure that they knew I was going to rock up any moment. And that's why it didn't happen because I reinforced this message of we've got to do our jobs, guys, girls, you know, we all know stories like that. Don't we, Joe?
Joe:Oh, we do. And lack of supervision is a whole nother world, but that also deals with training. If. If your corporate, if your organization wants that to happen and you need to train your, your middle managers, your managers to fit to that expectations. Also, once again, um, we all know those stories and unfortunately, but I don't think there's an easy answer until the security industry decides to stop putting. Uh, one ad in the paper to take anybody, you know, I've, I've met those people say, Oh, well, I can do security. I think I can be a security officer. I can do that. And they show up and they don't have a clue what security is even about, you know, um, there is a reality to security. The security is an illusion. Um, our house is here in Las Vegas. I'm in a stucco house. That means I locked my front door, but there's a window Next to the door break the window. The door isn't locked anymore. Um, the, um, our walls are made out of paper and mud and two by fours, make a sledgehammer or a car and drive through the side of the wall. The building's not locked anymore. So. TSA, you know, going through airport security. Let's face it. That is a little bit of security theater. I understand what they're doing and I'm not pooing pooing what they're doing, but I understand that they cannot be 100 percent. If they did, planes wouldn't fly. So security is a little bit of an illusion. So in the training, there's nothing wrong with teaching that. The reality of security is that this, you can't do everything. There's always going to be an element. In fact, if I put an officer At a guard shack and he is not trained. I have increased, I have decreased my illusion. Believe me, people who drive up and say, hi, how you doing? I'd like to go see Bob. And if that officer doesn't know what, what to look for on the car or what kind of badge, or is that there, is there a visitor list or do I call somebody? You, you've destroyed your security appearance. So I think the security industry needs to hold itself. In more regards, um, you know, I don't, I don't know about it in Europe, but I am assuming it's the same, but in America, a company will leave one guard company for another guard company for 25 cents an hour difference.
Yoyo:Yeah. The same here. In fact, I've known of some horrendous stories where during the negotiations of charge rates, hourly charge rates, you know, they've negotiated the removal of certain people or site whom they deemed to be. not suitable, not fitting, not liked, whatever. There's some bad practices like that. I've witnessed it firsthand. I think also our industry here in the UK has got a bit of a bad rap. There's a bit of labor exploitation going on. At the very lower ends of the sort of second third and fourth tier supply chain where it just gets sub sub sub subbed out It's a real dirty space where Very inexperienced people who can't speak english Are put in security jackets and told to stand somewhere and Be a security professional even that they would be licensed, there's an even murkier area where we know licenses are being borrowed and swapped and you know If the likeness is remotely similar so that's something the industry is very conscious to try and clean up and There are some bad actors inside the industry and those ones do give the rest a really bad name and therefore even Make people depreciate what value they do offer. another one of those ones that likes a night job because he wants to sleep all night. No, maybe he just likes being around less people because he's neurodiverse. there are bigger conversations, aren't there?
Joe:Yeah. Well, so, so looking at the problem there, is it the internal customer or the external customer? And I think it's both. Because the internal customer is learning from what the external customers are doing, you know, not making sign of accounts, but the bean counters are always looking to to put their beans in a, in a folder or in a pile. And my pals bigger than your pile. And if that means taken away from security to make their pile bigger. Well, that's good for somebody, but that doesn't help the overall organizational structure of having a well trained. people able to think on their feet, um, emotional intelligence, right? Everything that everybody's looking for in a, in a workforce today is still, is still being pulled upon by the, where we put our money today, or can we really afford to do that? The question should always be, can we really afford not to do that? Anyway, back to the book. I hope it works people well. Um, I do give this whole second section.
Yoyo:Yes, take me through that one.
Joe:Well, so the whole first section is writing courseware. That's everything from, and I, some of the things that, you know, bore as a curriculum developer is I don't like badly written test questions. So I even have a portion in there about writing, writing test questions. Don't write a negative negative. Where which one of these is not the true, you know, which one of these is not the false, you know, so make sure your questions make sense. Make sure that they are trying to, um, provide the answer you want. Um, in fact, um, so I remember taking the PSP test a long time ago and you never find out the real answer. So I once said to somebody so. If I'm taking a test and it says, what color is the sky and I click green because I'm colorblind or whatever, and I get that wrong to this day. I've never been told what the right answer is. I still think the sky is green. So, so when you write a test question, you have to do with a little bit more psychology and a little bit more science than just, you know, multiple guests, Bob, Bob yellow, the correct answer. Purple bicycle, you know, whatever it has to make sense in your testing and how you test it So I give a couple examples of that in the book.
Yoyo:Very good point
Joe:uh, then in the end of the second half of the book is What I recommend you do like for instance, i'm a very big Proponent of the field training officer entry level training. So in In the united states most organizations have a 90 day Probationary period upon hire
Yoyo:90 days, 90
Joe:day period that gives you us the ability to look at you and determine if you are the right person for this job. Are you trainable? Do you do you look? Do you act? Do you feel the way we want your position to feel? Um, if it doesn't work out, you can immediately terminate them within that 90 day period. But during that 90 day period, that is also a perfect time to give training. So, using the, um, uh, watch, do, teach, uh, methodology, the first 30 days, they're sit with a field training officer who does all the work, and all they do is watch.
Yoyo:You
Joe:know, they're explained why they're doing it and everything they're being trained and then in the second night, 30 days, they are actually doing the work and the training officer is asking them questions. But then in the last 30 days, they train the training officer what they're doing. And what it does is it immediately makes them into the ability to train the next person. Uh, also during that 90 day period, they attend the academy. Well, we had our own. We had our own academy. Uh, we do carry guns. So we have fire rifles, uh, pistol shotguns. Uh, we had tasers. O. C. Spray and then handcuffing, um, self defense classes, how to use a fire extinguisher, first aid, CPR, the whole, the whole gamut all done within the security academy. Um, but the other thing is, is that happened to happen in the third 30 days? The academy had to happen in the first 30 days because they couldn't go out and do anything on their own until they had that training, the initial training, the full training gambit. Anyway, so what I recommend is certain things and one is the FTO program. Uh, at the end of every week, uh, a new, a new candidate is completely evaluated. How they wear their uniform. Um, how do they talk to people. Are they taking instruction well? Do they know how to do this? Now, if all the, if all the check marks are done in the low end, that's okay at the beginning, but as they progress, all those marks should come up to the upper side. If they're not coming up the upper side, then it means maybe you should get rid of the person and move on to the next candidate. So I'm a real big fan of the FTO program, so I put a bunch of stuff in there about that. And then I talked about anything else they may want to need to train about, um, if there is weapons involved.
Yoyo:I like the section you've got here on crisis management. You list so many crises, as examples, including confrontational crises, malicious actions, crisis of violence, and what's more interesting is that's followed, I noted, by a chapter called Well, a segment called train the plan, and you've hit a really good point here. There's no point in having great policies and great procedures if we're not training people on their existence and the content that they hold.
Joe:Excellent. Thanks for bringing that up. Um, we deal with crisis every day. In fact, in security, if it's not a crisis, what are we going to do? So, if you consider almost everything, whether it be somebody's, uh, and basically training for the crisis is, Not so much in how you act as an officer to that crisis or how the organization does. It's how the organization wants the officer to.
Yoyo:If,
Joe:if somebody is damaging a vehicle, Does the organization want the officer to go out and say, excuse me, sir, please stop that? Or does the organization want the officer to go out there and knock him to the ground and handcuff him and stop the violent act? And let's face it, there's a wide space in between there. So knowing what the organization wants and how to handle it is more important than the training itself.
Yoyo:It's important to be clear.
Joe:Exactly. and then the last thing, train the plan is, uh, I've known too many companies that ask for a copy of stuff because all they want to do is change the name at the top of the plan. Well, that doesn't work very well. Like, for instance, um, my last company was very, Critical. It was critical infrastructure. So basically, we were the physicality of the Internet. We were the physical location of the Internet. The cloud sat in our in our buildings. So every little thing that happens if there was a little bit of a power blunt or there's a little bit of a lost water pressure. We always had to to work the plan and If you don't have a plan and you don't know the plan, you can't work the plan. So you have a plan, you've written it out. If you need to change it, you need to change it later. But you have a plan, train to the plan, and then work the plan.
Yoyo:I was the security lead for a data center also during one time. And in fact, three data centers. And I mean, England doesn't get a lot of sunny weather, Joe. But it was the hottest day of the year. It was around about sort of 32 degrees, which would be in your sort of 70s. You know, mid seventies, easily, maybe a little higher because it was a super hot day, that's, that's always the day that the air conditioning and a data center goes in on the wobble.
Joe:Yeah, that's not good.
Yoyo:But we always had. Back to your point, because we always treated everything very seriously, it was a case of repetition. You know, everybody would get involved. There was a lot of repetitive actions. Everything was treated. We did a lot of rehearsals. Every time an incident was treated like a real incident, I'm not explaining that very well. We became so good like an oiled machine because every bullet we treated like an incident and we became very efficient and very good as a, as a, and that's working with M& E, but you work with M& E maintenance engineering and data centers a lot because they're the ones that will do anything from make sure the doors closing properly, which is important for air temperature control and security of course, right through to some of the very complex systems and collaboration is important as well when it comes to training the plan, isn't it?
Joe:By all means, and getting all those people to agree upon your training is important too, and that's why I recommend signatures, because Bob said.
Yoyo:No, Joe said.
Joe:But you know what I mean, but Tommy said I needed to, you know, that my officers needed to know how to do this, so.
Yoyo:Yeah. No,
Joe:you're exactly right. In fact, um. I, my last company, I hold them in the highest regard. They're, um, I've never worked with any organization that dealt with risk at such a minute level. I mean, the buffing pads, we actually checked to see what the, the, you know, that material breaks free after a while. We actually did tests to find the buffing pads had the least amount of debris on the, on the, which a computer could suck up, right? So everything from, uh, our data center rooms were overpressured so that it pushed dust out of the rooms. That means your door closers have to be at a different, a different settings.
Yoyo:Uh,
Joe:it was, it was amazing. You know, we, we thought everything that we put into the facility, we thought about the risk of it. For instance, um, before Kirk's or the, whatever, any brand like Tom Kirk's, the pod coffee company, we had no coffee inside of our building. You could not make coffee in the building. You could also not.
Yoyo:I couldn't survive.
Joe:Well, there's always Starbucks nearby. But you could not because that little coffee donut at the bottom of the pot that somebody didn't turn off is a cause for a false fire alarm.
Yoyo:No.
Joe:If it smokes, um, microwaves popcorn. The number one cause of false fire alarms, false smoke alarms.
Yoyo:Sarcasm alert here, but what happens when you've got loads of crazy people in the building because they haven't had a coffee? That's more riskier, surely?
Joe:Well, well, on a data center floor, no liquids are allowed, so they have to go to the break room now. Yes,
Yoyo:you're right. And once again, the
Joe:current changed our world.
Yoyo:Yes, it did. The
Joe:coffee pods changed our world.
Yoyo:Lastly. You've got a chapter at the end called Training for Security Managers and Directors, and I love that you've included that, because you're literally catering for all levels. But also, I love the fact, and I wanted to point this out, that you cover future proofing. And I think if anyone hasn't figured it out by now what a smashing book this is, I'm not biased, you haven't paid me to say this, I just, I love the way you've built it. Future proofing is so important, and yet it's something that not everybody does. Isn't that right, Jo?
Joe:Yeah, for a lot of reasons. One is forethought. Um, I get that there's a lack of that. They, they do what needs to be done and move on. Um, but even the training management, you know, with ASIS, it was all about security management training. I really liked being on, um, on the board of directors for, um, ISPO. And now I'm on Board of Advisors for, um, ISPO, that it's the officer level. It's the officer turning into the supervisor, the officer turning into the manager, and the instruction of that. I mean, wow, that is something that is completely missed, in my opinion, at ASIS. And for all the right reasons, you know, that's their niche, this is their niche. But, um, You, if you train everybody at this level, but you don't train the trainer, there's something missing. So you need to train a trainer. You need to have a trainer who knows how to deliver. The education how to use the CBT or the computer based training or they know how to put it into the system. So they get the checkmark that they train. They need to adjust the test or overview the or watch the course to find out what may need to be changed. Uh, you know, if somebody is not, it's not clicking, they're not, they're not picking up the inferences. You're coming. You need a different analogy. That's what that's what an educated trainer does. So you need to train a trainer, but you also need to train the supervisor manager. Leadership, management, and supervision are three different things. A leader is sometimes a manager. A manager has to have leadership qualities, and a supervisor needs to have a little bit of all of them. But they are different tasks. They're different, they're different regiments. So, there's nothing wrong with making sure that your, your managers are trained at a same level as to what you're training everybody else. Especially if you set up a training program after that manager's already worked his way up the line from officer up to manager. What is he missing? What is she missing? What are they not picking up? Or what do they need to know? So, and then the future proofing is Be ready for the future at all times. I mean, read the, read magazines, read periodicals, read the news, keep up with the politics, stay away from the, you know, the, you know, all the, some of the stuff on Facebook and stuff like that. And just stay to reality, learn to question what you're reading, learn to find out where it came from, learn how to. Do the research on your own so that you become a better leader toward your, toward your personnel.
Yoyo:You know, you've heard the phrase, go getter. Well, I've come up with a new one. It's called go giver. And you're a go giver, Joe. And I think you'll love this quote by Winston Churchill, and I want you to tell me if you've heard it before, but Winston Churchill, allegedly, we are in a mortal world with loads of fakery, but apparently he said, to improve is to change, to be perfect is to change often.
Joe:I have not heard that, and I am a very big fan, I am a very big fan of Churchill. I have been to Chartwell. I've been to Whitehall, uh, down in the bunker. I have been to Checkers. So, I am a big fan of, uh, Churchill. So, I've read several books on him. And I've not heard that one, though.
Yoyo:Well, I thought he was
Joe:a very brave, brave man. To take the responsibility and do what he did that was necessary at the time.
Yoyo:Well, I just felt, it's one of my favorite quotes, I just felt that it was very pertinent to what you've achieved with this amazing book, Developing a Security Training Program, uh, by Joseph McDonald, uh, CPP, PSP, and CPOI. You've got that on the front page. Yes. Well done. And what we'll do is we'll provide a link to the book as well, Joe, when we put the podcast out so that people can click on it and, and hopefully buy it. That would be the plan.
Joe:Thank you. And there is a CRC Press, the publisher, has their own, I can't change the pricing, you can actually rent the book. Okay. So, if you're taking a course and you require this text for a course, you can actually rent the book through like Kindle for six months or one year at a time. I thought that was unique.
Yoyo:Oh, that is awesome. Well, Joe, what's next for you?
Joe:I'm working on a project for a hospital in California to do some leadership training, but, uh, keep traveling, keep retired.
Yoyo:No, don't ever retire for good. Joe, Joseph McDonald, thank you so much for giving us your time today at the Security Circle podcast
Joe:it was my pleasure. Thank you.