EP 119 Daniel Garnham, Founder of the Security Federation on Guarding the Guardians: The Fight for Security Workers' Rights

Daniel Garnham

• 20 years as a UK police cyber detective and digital trainer.

• Lead implementor and auditor on ISO27001 cyber security standard.

• International speaker in cybercrime, cyber security and digital forensics.

• Global trainer in cyber for Interpol, United Nations and Council of

Europe.

• Teacher of law enforcement in 6 Eastern European countries.

• Named in the top 25 of UK security influencers 2025.

• Judge of global cyber security awards.

• Founding member of Global Online Harm Alliance.

• Penetration tester.

• Chainalysis Cryptocurrency Certified.

• Certified teacher.

• Founder and head of UK cyber and physical security trade union.

• Written cybercrime, digital forensics and cyber security courses for

Arden university, London and Alma Mater University, Slovenia.

• Owner of GSG Consultancy, London.Daniel is an ex UK police officer with 20 years’ service investigating transnational cybercrimes and providing trauma

support after terrorist incidents, notably the 2017 Manchester Arena attack. Played a key role in implementing a digital

transformation to a national UK police force and conducting training to hundreds of police officers across the UK in criminal

investigations and digital forensics. Expert in the field of Cybercrime methodologies and typologies for the Global Online

Harm Alliance providing expert advice and training to global partners into investigations of all types of online harm

including cyber enabled romance fraud, human trafficking and child sexual exploitation. Trainer and advisor to Interpol,

Council of Europe, CEELI and the American Bar Association in cyber investigations, the dark web and the criminal

exploitation of virtual currencies and Blockchain technology. Providing training on a domestic and international basis to

investigation teams throughout the world. Daniel is an information security consultant for UK based CyberCrowd where he

takes clients through the ISO 27001 accreditation and gamified learning.

• Internationally recognised qualification, National Police Chiefs Council (NPCC) Cyber Crime Foundation Course

• Internationally recognised qualification, National Police Chiefs Council (NPCC) Cyber Crime Protect Course

• Internationally recognised qualification Cryptocurrency Fundamentals Certificate (CCFC) from Chainalysis

• UDEMY certification in Digital Forensics and Cybercrime

• Founder and President of the UK’s only security trade union, the Security Industry Federation

• Member of the UK Security Institute

• Member of the International Professional Security Association

• Member of the Working Group for the UK Government Department for Trade

• Cyber expert for Innovate UK• Associate lecturer in criminology and cybercrime at Arden University

• Wrote a complete cybercrime degree course for university students

• Investigated a large-scale ransomware attack on the UK’s critical national infrastructure

• Investigated crimes on the dark web using OSINT tactics

• Investigated multiple cybercrimes and attacks on the UK’s critical national infrastructure

• Created and delivered training packages for Moldova and Bulgaria in respect of OSINT Investigation, cybercrime

and the management of serious and complex crime

• Created and delivered training packages for Morrocco in respect of cyber enabled AML

• African Crime project on Romance Fraud

Contact:

hello@gsgconsultancy.co.uk www.gsgsconsultancy.co.uk

Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

0:01

If you enjoy the security circle podcast, please like share and comment or even better. Leave us a fab review. We can be found on all podcast platforms. Be sure to subscribe. The security circle every Thursday. We love Thursdays.

Yoyo: 0:36

Hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. Welcome to. The Security Circle podcast. IFPO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers and we are dedicated to providing meaningful education, information and certification for all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference to our members mental health and well being. Our listeners are global, 151 countries to date our listeners are in, and they're the decision makers of tomorrow and today. And we want to thank you wherever you are around the world for being a part of the Security Circle journey. If you love the podcast, we are on all podcast platforms. Spotify is currently trending as the most popular. So don't forget to subscribe or even better, just like, comment and share the LinkedIn post. Thank you for your company. Well, I have with me a very special guest, and I laugh because obviously I say that all the time, Daniel, but I have Daniel Gardham with me, and Daniel, we've been trying to do this for a little while now, haven't we? Is it my fault? Is it?

Daniel: 1:39

No, no, we've met a few times in person at events over the last couple of years, and we've always had that conversation where we will catch up, but no, we finally have now, so no time like the present.

Yoyo: 1:49

No time like the present and I've been meaning to chat to you because You are emerging as somebody who people I think need to pay attention to take us through what you're doing with the security industry federation

Daniel: 2:03

Yeah, so the security industry federation is a trade union It's a home office, a UK certified trade union, and it is especially for the security industry. So whereas before there was no specific trade union just for the security industry. we've just reached our two year anniversary. only a couple of weeks ago, we are now in that place and we have, hundreds of members across the UK. And we now work for them, our members, to make sure that they are represented every day within the workplace, and doing everything as you would expect the trade union to do. But I think what a lot of people have found, because there was skepticism about having a trade union at first, is that we operate differently to maybe other trade unions and don't go along with the stereotype.

Yoyo: 2:50

Actually, I've been a member of a trade union before, and it's been necessary, I think, when working for certain types of organizations to be a member of a trade union. I've also been on the other side where I've potentially had an employee who's, you know, going through some challenging circumstances, maybe with performance, and it's maybe going downhill instead of getting better. And they've brought in a representative from their trade union to come in and support them through the process. And I've always said, I'm never worried when a trade union representative comes into a meeting, but there's a lot of managers that are terrified when they know the union is involved. Tell me why I wasn't worried about the union being involved in my performance meetings with staff.

Daniel: 3:43

Because As an employer, if you're doing everything how you should, and you're doing it the right way, then you should have no fear of a trade union, and we certainly don't want people to fear us. We are only there to make sure. That employee is exercising their legal right their entitlement to have a trade union representative at that meeting, and to make sure that the meeting is being held in the correct manner, and the fair process is being conducted. That's why we're there. We're not there to,, answer the questions for them. We're not there to say what's right or wrong. We are there to make sure that they are accompanied and they are getting the best advice available to them.

Yoyo: 4:26

I remember hearing other managers go, Oh, they got a trade union rep, roll the eyes. And I'm like, part of me in my head down was like, is that because you now need to worry about doing everything by the book?

Daniel: 4:40

Yeah, I mean, look, don't get me wrong. We've had some horrendous meetings where we've really had to go and tell the company that this is not the way you conduct a meeting. And this is what you've been doing for several years. And it's not the right way., we know from what we've been dealing with in the last couple of years, that there is a need for a bespoke security trade union. And there are a lot of companies that are doing the right thing. But there are also many companies out there in the security industry that aren't playing by the rules. When they have a representative from a trade union, and again, we hope it from the SIF, that at least the management of that organization are being made to follow procedure, because that's the main thing that wasn't being followed previously.

Yoyo: 5:23

Tell us a horror story that won't surprise anybody that's been in the security industry very long about some of the practices that are going on that is critical as to why you're there to support.

Daniel: 5:33

We have had some horrendous stories. We really have. We've so the ones that come, to my mind straight away, we had a security guard who was on a position of a door and was told by the management, you don't leave this door, you're a security, you stay here. It doesn't matter what's happening elsewhere. And they got disciplined because they left. that door, but they left that door because a woman was getting beaten up and not just beaten up by a man, but kicked almost to death. I mean, she was stamped on, she was taken to hospital with severe injuries. And this security guard, who was only about 20, 30 yards away from it happening, clearly, took the best approach and went and intercepted and stopped that man from attacking and stamping on that female. The police were called and he was, you know, commended by the police, but his employers. wanted to take him to task and wanted to actually dismiss him because he dared leave that door, which is absolutely crazy, and that's what we've been dealing with. We've been dealing with, people that have been racially abused at work by being called things like monkey in a suit by their crew. God, does

Yoyo: 6:50

that still go on?

Daniel: 6:51

Oh, absolutely. Earlier this year, we had a gentleman who was picked on by his colleagues, called a monkey in a suit. And when we took it to the employers and we had meetings and grievance meetings, they were very kind of blasé, swept under the carpet. They were just joking. It's banter. that's the sort of things that we've been dealing with. A lot of stuff at the moment has been about the neurodiverse, people with ADHD, people with autism, things that are not being put in place, whether it's reasonable adjustments or whether it's the management making fun of people because of their neurodiversity and got to the point where that person has then said or done something that has then escalated into a disciplinary and we've had to be involved. some of these stories. you know, are quite chilling as well. Why are we still advocating for people that can't leave their posts so that they can go and protect a female when we've got this big thing about violence against women and girls and the nighttime economy? You know, why are we still having to tell people that racism is not banter?

Yoyo: 7:57

And let's face it, if that door was so important? and you've got one person on that door. It's a single point of failure. Anyway, what if the officer was to somehow collapse or not be in a fit state to work? Where's the backup for that door? If it's that critical?

Daniel: 8:13

Yeah, absolutely. And look, besides from that, The things that we're dealing with on a daily basis on my team are, you know, campaigning for better pay, campaigning for better employment rights, and just even for the bog standard employment rights to be enforced properly. Not going above and beyond, we're not asking for miracles, we're just asking for those basic rights to be enforced.

Yoyo: 8:39

Don't you feel like sometimes, Dan, you're kind of like in an uphill struggle because, you know, it, look, I think the HR person or department in these circumstances, clearly should have seen this coming. You don't advocate. for this kind of behavior and conduct. So are we dealing with organizations where the HR is just outdated and not modern enough, not read up enough, not, not caring enough about protecting the business? I

Daniel: 9:11

think we're dealing with HR that are outsourced rather than outdated. So they're not using their own in house HR because of the size of their company. And even large companies are still outsourcing their HR. So when they tell us they're getting an independent person to come and review the facts or whether they're going to come in and deal with and conduct that disciplinary or grievance, actually, it's just an outsourced person that's been hired by that firm. So there is an invested interest in them to actually, do that. be on the side of the firm rather than the employee. And sometimes we have to remind them that our reps have been in meetings where we've had to turn around and say, well, actually, look, you know, you're meant to be impartial here. You're you're laying blame down in this meeting before we've even gone through the facts. So I think that's been a big issue that we've experienced.

Yoyo: 10:04

What got you into this though? Because I can see, you know, not all superheroes wear capes. What made you become so intrinsically involved that you thought, I have to do this?

Daniel: 10:18

Okay, so I've always been one of those people that if I see a problem, I like to solve it. It's just, that investigative kind of mindset. And that's why I was a police officer for 20 years, and that's where I've come from that background. I appreciate that years ago, when I formed this SIF, there was a lot of, oh you've been in policing, you've not been in security. Now, look, the two are in, intrinsically linked, because if you're looking after,, people, whether it's as a security officer, whether it's a police officer, you've got the same goal, you've got to make sure that people aren't getting hurt, you're making sure people and property are protected. When I left the police after 20 years on my own accord, because I wanted a fresh challenge. When I was in the police, I was a cyber officer, I was investigating cyber crime and training police officers up in, in the new digital systems. I decided that I was going to be a trainer for people like the UN and Interpol and go around the world and meet other companies, organizations, and police forces and kind of teach them what I learned. Whilst I was doing that, I did some SIA training. I did some CCTV training and I sat in on a few of the door supervisor training. I got my, licenses as well. Whilst I was doing that, there was a lot of people complaining about the industry and the state of it, and because I'd come from a police background where they had a federation, a police federation where you could go and you could kind of use them to I want to challenge management decisions or anything you weren't happy with. I, I just assumed that the security industry had something very similar. So my kind of thing over having lunch was, you know, don't complain to me, go and speak to the management or go and speak to the union. And they were like, what union,, there is no union. We can go and join the other unions without naming them. But, you know, They don't actually specialize in security. We'll get someone that maybe specializes in teaching or being a solicitor or something, but they don't actually understand the security industry. So we need that. So I kind of went home that evening and thought, well, how hard could it be to do this? And look, six months later, we were launched. We were a, a bonafide UK certified Trade union, which is, you know, we're on the list of the home office. You can search that up because people still have trouble. actually believing that we're on that list, but we are. And look for two years, this is the space we've been in. So my calling for this was really just another way of helping people just like I did in the police coming to a different industry and just wanting to make people's lives better.

Yoyo: 12:58

think you chose a good time to leave the police. And who's to say, you know, just because you've been in 15 years, you should do the whole 30. I mean, I left in 2009. And I mean, look, that was, I mean, the emergence of mobile phones in everyday life was starting to become a thing. But if you went to a fox hunt, which would have been an illegal fox hunt back in the day, still is now. Although that just depends really how much money you have. Or what land you own. We won't go down that Foxhole, rabbit hole. back in the day then in 2009, you know, people were nudging each other and poking each other, protesters and the other side, whatever. And, and they were all filming each other with their little Nokia 3310s. and that was tricky. You know, I am not a good poker player. I wear what I'm thinking on my face. Hence why I do an audio podcast. So if, if I was in policing in a day where everything can be recorded, I think they'd have a website just for yo-yos facial expressions, and they'd be able to tell what kind of event I was policing by the look on my face. It's not easy, is it? I think it's particularly hard to transition into a job outside of policing. How did you find the transition? You

Daniel: 14:15

know what? I found it, difficult at first because. I think you probably agree that there was always that sense of belonging and,, kind of institutionalized. I joined at 19 years old and I left at 39. So I had been a police officer for longer than I hadn't been a police officer. So if you put it like that, and it was really difficult to get out of that mindset. I'm over that bump now, but you know, before it was just difficult because I was used to working night shifts and having a regular body clock and eating times and everything. That's for the better that is. But yeah, I'm glad I left, and not because I didn't love policing, and it's a vocation, it was because of, exactly like you said, everything's becoming a little bit too political and difficult, and I think that's creeping into the security industry, or has crept into the security industry, because what we've been talking about over the last two years, that in shoplifting, if you're a security officer, you can't challenge anybody. How dare you go and challenge someone who's stolen a load of meat and bottles of wine as they're leaving the store. As a security officer, you're there to protect people and property. Which I would argue,, means that you're stopping that shoplifting. But now it seems that through policies from different organizations, companies and the client, they don't want you to intervene. They just want you to be a person that's going to stand there and watch and maybe give a description over to the police. We know that the police are overstretched and understaffed, and they're not going to attend, especially if it's under 200. So, really, being security at the moment in a retail setting, we are, we have got those politics trapped in, and it's really, really difficult. So we're trying to change that tide. It's not just the SIF, there's lots of people in the industry that are trying to turn that tide, and hopefully, over the next 12 months, we'll succeed.

Yoyo: 16:06

I remember the day when security officers used to run outside and chase bandits who had stolen items. That's a huge leap to up to 200 pounds per incident. And we're not going to get the police involved because you can be a career thief with 200 limitation on each store. And it's a license. Yeah. It's a license to go into others. A huge difference. There's a huge difference. And I was listening to a podcast the other day, not one of mine, somebody else's. And we were talking about, you know, theft retail in the sense of there's a huge difference between somebody who's going to steal something to eat, compared to somebody who's stealing to sell. And that's how you make the, the dividing line very distinctive that there's sometimes a need to steal if somebody is, you know, like if you, I think it was, um, it was an episode around leaving prison. There's no support for anyone who leaves prison. They get given a small amount of cash, which doesn't last very long. They get told that they've got to, you know, report in, blah, blah, blah. But if they haven't got the kind of setup or family or somewhere to go, they're literally homeless and they've got nothing to do other than go into stalls and steal food to, to eat and survive. And so some of them actually prefer being in because these, they get fed three times a day, et cetera, et cetera. So I'm thinking that's got to have a huge impact on, Retail, but then I went into, I didn't go into a lot of shops, Daniel. I went into a shop the other day and this, the assistant was just returning some items for me that I'd ordered online. And because I don't go out much, I'm like, Hey, you alright. How's it going? I can be like a bit like that. I should get out. and she was just, she had like this like resting grumpy face. And I just looked at her and I thought, wow, you really kind of just really Taken my buzz away. And then I went to another store actually it was Marks and Spencer's, there are other stores with a automated, till, but there wasn't even somebody I could interact with there. It was go straight to a personless till. And, and then I thought, what the hell am I doing? Why don't I just order online? Because there's no point in going to retail anymore. If you're going to be treated with resting grumpy face. Like, if you don't want to be it, don't be ere right? Right? Seriously, it's a job. We've all got to do one, love. That's what I felt like saying. You know? And then I thought the other shot doesn't even want to interact with me. But it's really tough for retail. So I put together one, one perspective. But on the flip side, you can talk to the fact that retail have never had it so hard in terms of the violent incidents being on the increase as well. You know?

Daniel: 19:03

Yeah, absolutely. we've seen over the last couple of years as a trade union, how that is transferred onto the security, worker, as well as the shop staff. Cause we know that there's a bill that's went through for, making it a separate offense for, an attack on a member of shop staff, just like there is as an attack on an emergency worker. I'd like to see that extended now with this new government to that of a security worker, because what, why are we saying these people are different? Why are we saying that the people that come as a police force to arrest the people that have done the theft are different to the ones that actually prevented it or stop them from leaving the store? You know, that's something that we want to work on as well. But yeah, it's difficult. I would fully hold my hands up, I would not want to be a security worker on the front of a, supermarket or high street retailer because the job is blooming difficult and you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. And if you do get involved, everyone gets their mobile phone out and puts it on YouTube and then you're, you know, it's death by jury anyway. And then the SIA take your license away and before you know it, you're probably looking for another job in a different industry.

Yoyo: 20:11

Yeah. Or looking to go back into the security industry, unlicensed, cash in hand. And then because of the way you're treated there in that kind of marigold, you know, where the dirty gloves are, so to speak, that marigold market, you're never going to be treated very well. You're never going to earn decent money. You're going to damage your ability to get any type of licensed job going forward. You're just a couple of steps up, you know, from being trafficked. Aren't you? From that, you know, as a human being.

Daniel: 20:40

Absolutely. And look, we know that that goes on. This is not, and people have been, talking about this very openly this year, which was quite refreshing. we've seen people on social media, calling it out and having screenshots of WhatsApp conversations. it's happening. We are an industry that unfortunately we want to professionalize or we want to see us as professionals. But we also have this horrible underbelly of cash in hand and less than minimum wage workers and people that aren't licensed, falling asleep at work and, you know, just can not doing the security job they're supposed to be. It's bringing everybody else down. I am glad that, you know, there are more people like us that will call that out now and get the SIA involved. And good to see that the SIA have been doing some prosecutions this year.

Yoyo: 21:31

we've got more coming on the Security Circle from the SIA as well. And the Security Circle did talk to both Paul Evans at Carlisle Security for his very balanced view on, you know,, organizations, allowing people to work under the national minimum wage. We also spoke to Lee Turner, who actually had never done a podcast before, bless him. He's very active to try and expose organizations. He exposed one this week, found out that the owners, you know, on another social media platform, flashing a high performance car, yet. he's allowing people to go and work on sites. Was it less than eight, nine pound an hour or something? I remember that one.

Daniel: 22:13

Yeah. Well, well, Leigh is, it's been brilliant. He's an, he does some work with the SIF and has been since the very start. And I've certainly encouraged him to carry on doing what he's doing. And there are people that are trying to silence him, but look, you know, he is effective. And he's calling it out. He's not afraid to do so. And you're right. I spoke to him literally only an hour ago, before this podcast. And he said, you know, he gave me some more information, the stuff that he's working on. So yeah, keep tuned onto those social medias for Lee, because he will be exposing still.

Yoyo: 22:46

Yeah, and bless him, I know. He's quite smart. He's got, he's very understated, you know, he's really intelligent and very articulate. And I was quite impressed with him when I spoke to him because he comes across like a bit of a dude, doesn't he? Do you know what I mean? Like, dude. Oh

Daniel: 23:01

yeah, absolutely. He's, you know, East London boy. And, um, now he's kind of got himself up north to quite a countryside, but yeah, he's still doing what he do.

Yoyo: 23:12

I used to, manage a site in Enfield and this would have been round about 2014. And cause it was in Enfield, I had the, you know, what I called the East London Asian security massive working on my site. They all knew each other and they were like,, they were really cool actually. And they'd be like, yo miss, how's it going in it. And, but they were on 7, 8 for an hour or something. That was 2014. So look, I get it. The cost of living is very different now. We have gone through a cycle of inflation. It happens every sort of 15, 20 years. We're a long way away from those days where, you know, someone's working for 8 or 7. 90 an hour. In fact, in 2008, I was working for 7. 02 an hour. when I left the police, yeah, it's one of my stories I tell when I go to events and things. Yeah. When I left the police, I thought, okay, look, the only reason, Dan, I'm going to get any cred in this industry is if I go and do the frontline myself. Otherwise people be like, oh, you come out the police, think, or blah, blah, blah. nothing in it. Yeah. I. worked my way out of that, going into sort of management roles and things like that. And here I am now, but it's, it's, it's not easy.

Daniel: 24:31

No, I mean, look, I still speak to people that have been working the doors for 20 years. And they'll say 20 years ago, they were on 14, 15 pound an hour. And what do people charge now? I mean, people are still advertising for door supervisor positions at 11 pound 44 minimum wage.

Yoyo: 24:48

Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: 24:49

The wages have not gone up. If anything, they are requesting. And we know that in the last 20 years that the price of everything else has gone up. You know, inflation is huge. There is no growth in the market. And these people are still on that 15 pound or less an hour are struggling really, really. And that's why in the security industry, there is, I mean, my theory is in the security industry, why people, i. e. clients and employers can be so cutthroat with people is because they know that there's another thousand of them waiting to get that person's job. And it doesn't matter what they charge and it doesn't matter what rules and policies they put in place. There's another person that will take that job. And we always hear that that horrible phrase shirt filler or jacket filler. But unfortunately, there is a lot of people in this industry that are, you know, SIA qualified they hold the badge, how they got it is another matter. But are they doing a good enough job? And actually, when people do do a good job, they should be paid. what they're worth, not what people were worth doing the same job 20 years ago.

Yoyo: 26:02

Let's look at both sides. So if you are a client and you want security, there is an expectation of a certain level and having a security officer on a site that has barely legible English communication skills or writing skills. Is problematic yet. Yeah. Deeply problematic. I used to love training young security officers and I made them great. And some of them got, oh my God, I sound like Trump then, but I made them great. Everywhere I went, I left security officers with promotions. They all did really well. They all stayed, you know, they all did really well. And I'm thinking there seems to be this kind of mentality missing that. Yeah. You teach a guy how to communicate and he'll stay with you. He's going to stay with you. You look after him. He'll stay with you. You pay him on time. He'll stay with you. You give him some decent shoes to wear. He'll stay with you. So it's almost like this churn, this cheap churn it's got more to do with lacking respect for humans, let alone trying to build and nurture something that's sustainable within a business model.

Daniel: 27:11

Absolutely, and it frustrates the hell out of me because if you go on to all of these, security Providers websites, they will say that they have a, modern day slavery policy in place and they adhere to ACS standards and they do this and they do that, but actually when we've been into meetings with these companies, it is very difficult for them to be able to actually sit there with a straight face and tell us that they are doing everything that they tell us or tell it in the public that that's what they do. And you're right. People are going to work in security. We're wearing trainers instead of boots because they're not being provided. They're not able to afford their own pair or maybe this is just something they do on the side. And they just thinking a pair of black trainers will do. They're not worried about their appearance or they're not worried about whether they fall asleep on nights because at the end of the day, and this is what I've heard from people's mouths. I don't get paid enough to care whether I fall asleep on nights. It's not my problem. If they paid me more, I would do more. And that's a real sad state to be in.

Yoyo: 28:16

I'm laughing because when I was doing that kind of area manager mobile, car job at night, you know, they used to tell me to not go and visit sites because I kept finding security officers asleep. and remember I've been out of the police then about two years, maybe a year and a half, two years. And, and I'm like, But that's my job, isn't it? To go around and make sure that they're performing their duties. This was a reputable business, a business that did care about training, a business that did care about their welfare, a business where I had great managers. But I was literally told, Yo Yo, You stop going around and finding security officers asleep. Oh, and my, my, and I know a listener is like double taking this, so I rewind this. Did that, did you really say that? Like, yeah. And I was like, why, why are they not being told not to go to sleep? Why am I the one getting into trouble? And they'd say to me, because if we have to put them through the disciplinary process of gross misconduct, we haven't got anyone that's going to go in and do that job. So we're going to allow them to continue sleeping all night because the cost of replacing them because recruitment is expensive, uh, both in time and money and uniform and everything like that. Then you have the litigious element of it as well. Prove I was sleeping, you know, so in the end I was kind of told to turn a blind eye so that I didn't raise the awareness of the poor behaviors.

Daniel: 29:40

I can sense the injustice in your voice, you know, that the it's not, it's not how we want to reflect on our industry. You know, we are an industry that will tell everyone that we are professional. We do this and we do that, you know, let's, let's take the Manchester Rainer attack, for example. How many people in our industry believe that that won't be replicated again? You know, it's taken a long time for Martin's law to get through to where it is now. And it's a lot of

Yoyo: 30:08

effort.

Daniel: 30:10

Lots of effort to, you know, FIgan bless her. I mean, the amount of effort she's put into that, she should never have to go into that effort. It should be, it was no brainer. You know, we are where we are, when I was in the police, I was involved in the Manchester arena attack. I was the trauma officer there. When it happened, I got the telephone call because as I was working for a national police force in the British Transport Police, and being their trauma manager, anytime an incident of note like that happened, I would be called. So whether that would be a train derailment, for example, or whether it be a terror attack, then I would be called to go to that location. So from where I live, the complete other end of the country, as soon as it happened that evening, I drove up. To Manchester and stayed there for best part of a week. And as the trauma manager, I was there for. The officers. So if you imagine the police officers that had to see and deal with a lot of horrible things, I was there for their welfare to make sure that they were constantly being checked on, even when they went home that they had a wraparound and support network and a bit of signposting. That was brought in roughly around about 2011 2012 in the British Transport Police. Now, as far as I know, a lot of police forces and other emergency services have that now. It was quite new back then, and in 2017, Manchester Arena attack, that was the first time that it had been really properly used. I had been there, I saw the aftermath of that incident, it was terrible. We can have all of these, these, you know, trials and tribulations of who did what and how, well, how could it be better? But do we really think going from 2017 to 2024, can we sit here and actually say to ourselves, Oh, if that was to occur again today, it would be different. I actually don't think we could, because as an industry, I don't think we're learning those lessons.

Yoyo: 32:07

I don't know. Part of me is thinking, yeah, I hear you. But I also think that there there's a divide now between the organizations that would take the responsibility to be better and have better physical posture security hardening and use the likes of the findings in the Kerslake report. For those of you who haven't seen it, definitely check out the Kerslake report. It is the independent review to the preparedness for, and emergency response to the Manchester arena attack on the 22nd of May 2017. The findings. Former to do list, quite simply for anyone who thinks remotely strategically, if I do this, if I do this, if I do this, I'm going to be strengthening my security posture for my clients. So I do think there will be some organizations that will be very diligent at thinking, okay, we don't want ever, that to happen to us, especially those organizations that work in very high, volatile areas like prisons and detention centers. They don't want the egg on their face, especially after this report, because every single professional will be like, well, hang on a minute. Why didn't you learn anything from that?

Daniel: 33:12

Don't get me wrong. There are some people out there, some organizations in the security industry. Yeah, they do their best and learn lessons. And then there'll be some that will be like

Yoyo: 33:22

the what report. The

Daniel: 33:24

trouble is, is the subcontracting, isn't it? You know, the subcontracting, the subcontractor subcontract. Let's, let's just take it with a Glastonbury we have people from all over the country, security workers, SIA holders working at these events. And it's always cash, 30 days after the event. And then we get lots of complaints that people are chasing up their money and not being paid. These people are on 11. 44 or 12. 01. And they don't actually know who they're working for. They haven't been given a real set of instructions. It's kind of, well, just bring a friend along and make up the numbers. You mentioned Paul Evans at Carlyle and what I will say about Paul is, you know, he announced earlier in the year, if not last year now, that they're not going to subcontract. I think, that's brilliant for their business. It makes a brilliant sense. I wish everyone could do it, but we know that's not the case. So when you're a worker at Glastonbury, not knowing who to chase your payment from, knowing that you're getting the minimum wage. And seeing something happen in a field or in a tent, you know, are you likely to take that responsibility as much as you would if you were invested in the company you work for, you're getting paid at a rate that reflects your responsibility. I just think that if you take that from a festival into another concert, whether it be the same venue or not, you know, unless you're getting people that you know, that have been vetted. and you trust, how do you know that you're going to actually provide the service that you've told the client you can?

Yoyo: 35:00

You don't and it takes an extremely, diligent amount of practicing and expertise and I think that's where some organizations have been cutting corners. Are you an event security business or are you a security business? Providing security officers for corporate is if you're in eventing, you have to have a very different business model than you would if you were running corporate, you know, office locations, say, in the city of London. Like mobile security. Again, we all know we've been there, done that key holding, blah, blah, blah. You know, different model entirely that you can't just support them with somebody standing in and, you know, putting a jacket on and going out and doing the job with any kind of delay. Oh, you know, you might get away with it a couple of times, but then what about that one time something really does happen and then you really caught the pants down effects.

Daniel: 35:49

There seems to be. Too much of a rush to get business in, whether you are a specialist in it or not. No one seems to, turn away a contract or they're bidding for stuff that they haven't got the experience in. and you're right. So like, for example, if a key holding company, then all of a sudden got an events contract, you know, how are they going to deal with that? Well, they're just going to subcontract it to someone who has got the, necessary experience. It's difficult. It really is.

Yoyo: 36:16

But then sometimes I think we're a little luckier because in other areas of the world, we have a high proportion of listeners in America that have, security guards with guns, guards and guns. You don't really expect as a security guard in America, a gun carrying trained security officer, you don't expect to not come home at night. And that's the very real risk that, bulk, male and female, are facing. Thank goodness we don't really have that issue, but nevertheless, the rate of our security personnel on the frontline getting assaulted in the course of their job has increased. I'm going to be very honest with you. I let you go in free flow when you were talking about this, but I had no idea that the law didn't include security personnel. In terms of if they're assaulted in the course of their work, and I get it, that's ridiculous. It's not like they even carry an asp or anything to defend themselves

Daniel: 37:16

with. What really frustrated me is just before the general election was called when we had a Tory government, I actually put in an online petition for that to be changed, just like they did for the emergency services, just like they did for the shop workers. And then within a week they called a general election. And all of the petitions had to be cancelled and basically can you start again when there's a new government and it's just, you know, Frustrates the life out of me.

Yoyo: 37:43

Look, do it again. Get some more momentum behind it. I'll support, I'll help shed a bit of light on your campaign. Is this government now going to be better for you because they've certainly delivered for Dawn Heinz's spiking, issues and challenges and petitions. They have delivered for Fegan Murray's, Martin's law. They seem to be paying attention to the little things that the other government wouldn't and didn't consider in, in quite so much depth.

Daniel: 38:14

We hope so. And I think the proof will be in the pudding when we take this to them about the, The actual, you know, legislation on a security worker. We'll see what the response is. When really as a trade union, you would expect us to be aligned with labor, we're not, we're apolitical in the sense that we don't care who's in government, really. I just, we want to be able to get on. And go about our business, we're not getting, we're not handing out any money to Labour, we're not donors and we're not receiving anything from them. In fact, you know, I've never met Sakiya Starmer and I'm not sure if I will do. What we do want is we just want, you know, whoever's in charge, we just want them to be able to listen and make common sense decisions.

Yoyo: 38:55

It wouldn't surprise you to know that communication failures and preparedness and response and training are in the top areas of physical security, remediations for the Manchester Arena attack and still very relevant today. But one of the things I will always remember the Manchester Arena attack for is the gray area piece I think that incident did a lot for the gray space. Thanks. That nothing else had ever done. People started realizing, okay, we're in a community, this gray space here. Somebody's got to have some responsibility for reporting what goes on in that gray space. That gray space for people who don't know is a space where, it's neither owned by you nor somebody else. And with Manchester Arena, because this chap was, you know, walking up and down in this gray space, nobody really took accountability for going and challenging his behavior because it wasn't within their remit. there was a lot of highlights on just whose responsibility it was and the communication and the reporting of suspicious behavior. He should have been reported. There should have been a standoff out there as armed police pointed guns at him. That's what should have happened. He should never have been allowed to get anywhere near that venue looking like that.

Daniel: 40:09

Not just on the evening, but obviously we know from CCTV images that in the days leading to that attack. Recon. Yeah, done recon, and again, walked around unchallenged. So yes, and what we said earlier, some lessons will be learned and some lessons have been implemented, you know, personally, I just think that we still need to up our game. There's still, there needs to be a bit more cohesion rather than some top companies saying, well, if it happened on our watch, it wouldn't, we need a bit of cohesion between the whole of the industry.

Yoyo: 40:41

Your job has got to be equally as hard as somebody trying to protect a species about to go extinct.

Daniel: 40:47

It feels like that sometimes, yeah. But look, I think, if The only reason I'm doing this is if I can make some people's lives a bit easier and give them the dignity they deserve when it comes to grievance or, discipline meetings and give them their lawful entitlement, then we've won. We can't often always predict the outcome, but we can make sure that everything's fair. And we can make sure that they're actually being supported and looked after because a lot of the work we do is behind the scenes with mental health support, we run a 24 7 counseling service that also is able to give people face to face counseling within 48 hours. We know they went to their doctor and said we need face to face counselling. They'll put on a waiting list between six and nine months. Now, what we're offering as being a member of our union is we'll, you know, we'll actually give you someone face to face within 48 hours. And that's not you because you have to travel 100 miles to get there. They come to you. They will arrange this in your town or city. we're trying to give a lot of dignity back to people and a lot of self esteem and actually say, look, yes, as a security officer, you are first responders. You've seen a lot of terrible stuff. You've dealt with a lot of terrible incidents. And actually we understand that you need someone to talk to. And it's not always easy to do that at home, or maybe you haven't got that support network. So actually, look, let's provide you with that. And I know that again, hundreds of people have used that over the last couple of years and, have been better for it.

Yoyo: 42:20

You mentioned that you were the trauma manager for the Manchester arena attack. You also you were involved up, weren't you? And the same sort of type of role for the London Bridge attack.

Daniel: 42:30

Yeah, I was on duty at the time, I was dealing with the aftermath of it. Again, that was for the officers that attended, helping and signpost them, meetings with their colleagues and them as a group to, to ensure that everyone's got an understanding. A lot of it is to do with their supervisors as well, when police officers, same as security officers, deal with a lot of traumatic incidents, it's making sure that when they return to work, Whether that's the next day or the next week that support is there,, sometimes it depends on the individual whether they want to talk about what happened or whether they don't want to have any questions asked about it. Or, you know, we know that there's a dark humor side in the police, especially. Yeah,

Yoyo: 43:11

yeah, I got that.

Daniel: 43:12

Yeah, and we need to make sure that these people are just. you know, supported. So whether, yeah, whether it's been London Bridge, whether it's been Manchester, um, like I said, train derailments and other horrific incidents, it's just more about supporting the individual.

Yoyo: 43:28

And the other thing that you're quite passionate about, lastly, before we finish, is zero hours contracts. Give me a rant on why they're so bad for our sector, Dan.

Daniel: 43:40

You know what? It's It's not a rant,, it's just me saying that.

Yoyo: 43:44

It's disturbing of a rant.

Daniel: 43:45

There's a lot of people out there that will say that zero hour contracts are good for the industry and it helps people, etc, etc. But,, my personal opinion is, a zero hour contract just allows the employer to be able to treat that member of staff, a bit like an as and when person and what we want is these people that are working on zero hour contracts are absolutely dependent on that work and they dare not speak out against any mistreatment. They dare not speak out against any monetary loss. because of fear of being told that next week there's no more work for you and they've mortgaged to pay, they've got children, they've got, you know, mouths to feed. And I just think that if they work for you, and especially if they've worked for you for X amount of years or amount of time, put them on a contract. Put them on a contract and stop trying to avoid the national insurance contribution or the AYE and holiday pay and everything and actually treat them with that respect and give them a contract. I understand students and other people that the, like the seasonal workers maybe might want to just dip in and out. That's absolutely fine. But, you know, give these people a contract they deserve and actually make them feel welcomed into the industry.

Yoyo: 45:07

You're doing some cyber training in schools, aren't you? Along with the very highly toxic negative influence of the likes of Mr. Andrew Tate. How's that going and are the boys hearing you?

Daniel: 45:20

Yeah, so I've been, like I said, when I was in the police was a cyber investigator. And for the last two years, I've been going around the world, dealing with the cyber investigations and, and helping organizations be cyber aware. I now work for a great company called cyber crowd to give them a shout out because as a consultant, you know, I'm able to, you know, really carry on my love of cyber awareness and protect people when I go into schools. Um, it It really is usually to speak to the teachers and give the teachers some training on what to spot and it could be things like radicalization but it could also be Um, you know, the, the content, the harmful content that people are viewing online, whether that be a short TikTok sort of 30 second video, or whether that be a podcast, and you mentioned Andrew Tate, and you will have teachers that have come to me and said, You know, when I've said, when I've set these boys a task to give me a 10 minute presentation on someone that influences you like a hero, and they expect it to be a sporting star or, you know, even a, their father or something, but they're coming in this and like six in a row will be giving a 10 minute presentation on Andrew Tate and, you know, the way he, um, views the world and how they treat, you know, You know, females and, and money and drugs, etc. And it's almost the teacher say to us, it's like they're brainwashed into believing what they hear from these people's mouths. And it's not just Andrew Tate, there's other people as well. But it's, it's kind of sad indictment at the moment that You know, when, with my job of trying to prevent online harm and trying to protect people, because I'm part of the Online Harm Alliance as well, which is a global institution, is, it's just sad to hear our children being brainwashed by those types.

Yoyo: 47:15

What's next, Dan, in the terms of, we know that the Andrew Tate are out there, and I don't like mentioning his name. We know that, you know, we're in a world of kind of, you know, you don't even have to tell the truth anymore because people will believe facts if they, you know, fit a certain bias that's already personally, held. What's next? I want to see if there's any ideas around how we're going to be able to tackle, you know, the minds of our young people, because on a geopolitical scale, a lot of this is very deliberate and some of us know about it. Some of us know about it and try not to. Think about it. Talk about it. Some of us don't know about it, but there are certain hostile states out there that want our children's brains to be dumbed down with pornography and violence because whilst they're sort of, engorged in that kind of space. They're not going to be effective as they grow into adulthood and therefore, we become weaker as a human race. It's that big.

Daniel: 48:13

Absolutely. I totally agree. I've been shouting about that for the last few years. look, I think it's good to need some court of government level intervention. You've got other places around the world that are starting to put. things in place to guard, safeguard children, whether that be not being able to use a certain social media platform until the age of 16. Is that

Yoyo: 48:35

working?

Daniel: 48:36

It's, it's, it's probably too new to find out whether that's working, but I'm sure there'll be a study on it within the next 18 months. But you know, and another thing is when you take something away or tell someone they can't do it, especially to a teenager, they're going to do it anyway in spite, you know, it's a real difficult situation, but with the. invention, or the artificial intelligence and the deep fakes, and, you know, we've seen that through general elections, not just in our children as well. It's really difficult because normally what you see in here is something you can believe, but now What you see in here, you have to question. Unfortunately, if they are 14 or 13 years old, you know, you haven't got that capability or that, that knowledge to, to question it because you've seen it and it looks and feels real. So I think it's going to take some sort of real high level, governmental, even intervention to be able to say, well, look, actually, do we need to expose our children? To this content, especially at the age when they are so susceptible to being molded into, you know, into these characters like Mr. Tate.

Yoyo: 49:48

In fact, Australia started it, and I love Australia for their kind of rebellion, rebellionism. I don't know if that's a word, but you can count on Australia to go, no, Mike, no way, Mike, we're not doing that. They put their foot down, didn't they? With some social media, they've banned. They've banned. What did they ban? Was it TikTok?

Daniel: 50:08

I think it was TikTok or Instagram as well.

Yoyo: 50:10

yeah, yeah.

Daniel: 50:11

I was actually in Australia, about 13 months ago, giving a talk to businesses about social media influence on children. So yeah, it's good to see that's being done. So I knew that there were plans in the background for that to happen. I'd like to see that over here. I've got teenagers And I don't know what they're looking at and unfortunately if I ask to look at their browsing history or they're going to hide the phone or they're going to delete it before I get to it, it's really, really difficult balancing that parental trust and actually trying to protect our children from these threats.

Yoyo: 50:44

I don't know. I think if they're under 16, I think parental trust goes out the window in those terms. I think there are conditions that parents can put in place that say, you know, we have to do these checks and it's for your safety. And if you don't like it, then I don't pay for your phone. Period. End of. Finito.

Daniel: 51:01

Unfortunately, mine are 16 to 21 now, and they'll tell me to do one if I ask them to look at their phone.

Yoyo: 51:06

You wouldn't now, because 16 is culpable, and he's above the age of, you know, consent for lots of things, but yeah, but I'm talking about the under 16s, really. You know, the ones that haven't yet mastered, you know, how to regulate themselves emotionally, but are, you know, allowing, social media to take them down rabbit holes. it's really dangerous. And I don't, I would be, you know, if I, if I did have children, they'd be incredibly successful, obviously, because they'd be driven by a helicopter mother, but they would hate me. They'd hate me. They'd be like, my mother wasn't so strict. What a great round robin of security issues, which many would have touched the hearts of lots of security professionals that listen. Dan, keep up the good work. Good luck with the security industry federation. we've talked about the benefits of being in a union. There are so many, and also good luck with forging relationships with security companies and work in alliance with them so that people can see that you're working to support together to support employee rights and entitlements and things, that's the healthier place to be. I know you've got a bit of an uphill struggle. What's coming next in 2025 for you? Is there anything you can tell us?

Daniel: 52:24

I think that's the good thing is, in the last couple of years, a lot of the employers now, the companies, have actually seen that, we're not an ogre. we are there to work with people and if someone, if one of our members has done something that they shouldn't have done, we're not going to, lie and cheat and try to do everything we can to keep their employment or to keep them from trouble. We are there to make the security industry a better place. And that means working with both sides we've had a lot of success. where we've been able to establish these relationships with employers and go to them and actually have a quiet word and say, right, okay, look, you know, this is the situation. Can you do something about it? And they've been really thankful they've done it. And it's the end of story. And that's what we want. We just want to be able to go in and mediate and make sure that what was a problem is no longer a problem. Coming in 2025. Okay, so yes, the Protect card. The Protect card is the security industry's answer to the Blue Light card.

Yoyo: 53:29

Okay, tell everyone what the Blue Light card is for.

Daniel: 53:32

Yeah, so a lot of frustration around, not being able to join the blue light card. And because being both ex police officers ourselves,, we've held them. And it's a good discount scheme where you can go onto the high street or discounts at cinemas, restaurants, gyms, even flights and hotels, kind of the whole plethora of retailers that you can go and get a discount for as a thank you for being in the emergency services. That's the blue light card. So about a year ago, I went to the blue light card and said, well, look, you've got X UK that do just as important job. They are first responders. We've seen that with Southport. We've seen that with Leicester Square. You're getting there before the police because there's more security professionals in the UK than there are police officers and they are doing the job sometimes of these first response police officers. But they basically said no, we're not having anybody in any other industries, this is a bit of a closed shop. And then earlier this year, we heard that they announced that teachers are going to be part of the blue light card scheme and I've got nothing against teachers. They don't drive around with blue lights, but I've got nothing against them. They do a great job. However, there was a lot of people that said to me, look, can you go back to the blue light card? And I'm just one of these people that do not want to go back cap in hand. I just thought, well, actually, again, we can do this ourselves. It's a bit like when I first started the SIF. if it doesn't exist, then let's make it exist. So with the protect card, I've been able to go to these retailers and get all of the same discounts that the blue light card users enjoy. Launching on the 2nd of December this year, it's going to be the protect card is for everybody in the security industry. It doesn't matter whether you work on the frontline CCTV, whether you're a key holder or whether you're a administrative person who works in the office, you still play a part. Security. And without that role we wouldn't function as an industry. So anybody in that security industry, including cybersecurity, can apply to have a protect card as of the 2nd of December, and it's just five pounds for the year. And for that five pounds for the whole year, you will get everyday savings at a host of retailers. You'll save that the first time you go to the cinema or you have dinner out at a restaurant that's amazing in one go. So this, again, this is about giving back. having something that the industry wants and needs and being able to supply that for them. So I'm really looking forward to the launch of that.

Yoyo: 56:01

Oh yeah, good luck with that and let us know I can share some posts and raise some awareness as well. Daniel Garnham. Thank you so much for joining us on the Security Circle podcast.

Daniel: 56:12

No, it's my pleasure. Thank you.