EP 125 Stu Bratt - 'Tough Enough to Talk' for Mental Health Week

🎧 Episode Summary: “Tough Enough to Talk”

In this deeply moving and candid conversation, host Yolanda Hamblen sits down with Stu Bratt—a military veteran, engineer, and founder of Tough Enough to Care, a mental health charity on a mission to break the stigma around men’s mental wellbeing. Stu shares his personal journey through loss, emotional growth, and ultimately, transformation into a fierce mental health advocate. Together, they explore how vulnerability, community, and meaningful conversation can be life-saving.

🔥 Teaser Highlights:

• From RAF to Realisation: Stu opens up about his time in the military and how the "man up" culture nearly cost him his own mental clarity.
• Tragedy Sparks Purpose: After losing two friends to suicide within four days, Stu’s emotional default of blame turned into a mission for change.
• “Lads, Don’t Be a Dick – Talk”: A drunken Facebook post led to the birth of Tough Enough to Care, now a registered charity supporting thousands.
• The Disappearing Pub Culture: Has the decline of traditional male social spaces like pubs made it harder for men to open up?
• Resilience vs. Reality: Why slowing down, self-awareness, and learning to say “no” are vital tools in your mental health toolkit.
• The Social Media Paradox: Connection or comparison? Stu weighs in on how social media magnifies mental health struggles.
• Blair’s Mental Health Comments: Stu tackles Tony Blair’s controversial view on self-diagnosing depression and the UK benefits bill—with nuance and fire.
• Advice for the Silent Struggler: If you’re silently battling, this is the part of the podcast you must hear. You are not alone.

Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

0:01

If you enjoy the security circle podcast, please like share and comment or even better. Leave us a fab review. We can be found on all podcast platforms. Be sure to subscribe. The security circle every Thursday. We love Thursdays.

Yoyo: 0:44

Hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. IFPO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, and we're dedicated to providing meaningful education, information, and certification for all levels of security personnel, while making, hopefully, a positive difference to our members mental health and well being. Our listeners are global. There are The decision makers of today and tomorrow, and I want to thank you personally, wherever you are for being a part of the security circle journey. If you love the podcast, we are on all podcast platforms, Spotify still trending as the most popular for your downloads. Don't forget to subscribe or even better, just like comment and share the LinkedIn post. Thank you for your company today. Well, I have with me today, a rather smashing man, to be honest with you. His name is Stu Bratt. He's the founder and CEO of Tough Enough to Care. And we're going to find out all about him today. Stu, welcome to the Security Circle Podcast. How are you doing?

Stu: 1:47

I am very well, Thank you for having me on.

Yoyo: 1:50

Well, we had a chat, didn't we? At the end of 24. And, uh, we talked about lots of things. men feelings, I think a lot came up and, the military Iraq, why men find it hard to talk? I mean, look, where are we going to start? Tell us what tough enough to care is and why you felt compelled to be the founder of such an amazing organization.

Stu: 2:14

Um, well, so. If I start just slightly before that, before Tough Enough was born to give you an idea of kind of where my mindset was at, we've mentioned the military there. So my background, I've played rugby all my life. I was, I joined the military straight from school. I did seven years in the RAF as a weapons technician, and I did several operational tours of Iraq and Afghanistan. So everything I'd ever seen was a male dominated space, whether it be down the rugby club, down the cricket club, in the military, it was all to do with You sort of man up, you put up and shut up and that's the way men operate. So left the military, went into industrial engineering, and that was the exact same culture and mindset, just with a different uniform as the military, and that's where I was when I sadly lost two friends to suicide within four days of each other back in 2019. Neither friend was known to the other, so it wasn't like a knock on effect. And when I lost, when I heard about the first friends that had taken their own life, I kind of went straight to the place of, they're weak, they're selfish, how dare they? Because that was the, that was how I'd been conditioned, how I'd been brought up, and no one had ever challenged that kind of mindset.

Yoyo: 3:34

It's a default, isn't it?

Stu: 3:35

I went, just like a child, I went back to my comfort blanket. That's all it was. And I didn't deal with, looking back now, I didn't deal with it well, but I dealt with it the way most people do, I went straight to the pub, and then four days later, as I say, I lost another friend to suicide, and went straight back to that default setting again, and kind of stopped myself there, and thought, well, These two people were the strongest people I know. They would have done anything for anyone. They weren't selfish. Selfish didn't even factor in their life. And then, with my engineer's hat on, there's clearly a problem here. There's something that needs fixing. Something's broken. How do we fix it? As engineers do, you go back to the root cause of it. Find the root cause. And I realised that it was me. and tens or hundreds of thousands of other people like me with my mindset that caused this. We never gave them a space to talk. We never even gave them a notion of an idea that I might be open to support them because I would just go straight to man up, put your big boy pants on, crack on. Um, so yeah, that's where Tough Enough to Care started from a very drunken, vague Facebook post after one of the nights trying to find my feelings at the bottom of 20 pints. Um, it just was lads don't be a dick talk and that it was as simple as that. I woke up the next morning to a little bit of mickey taking, which I would have been upset about if it hadn't been there. Um, but an absolute tidal wave of support and nobody knew why I was saying this message. You know, I hadn't told people what happened that week with my two friends, um, because I wasn't up for sharing. Um, and then I think because I saw the amount of positivity and the, the outpouring of support from people who knew, I had no idea what I'd been through that week. I thought, well, we're obviously on to something here because whilst people are willing to talk, nobody wants to be the first person to talk. So there you are, Tough Enough to Care was born and we're now, you know, we're, we're A registered charity about to hit our, uh, sixth year of being on the planet. And then, uh, so that's our fifth year of being a registered charity. And we help a lot of people and hopefully we can just encourage more people to, to reach out and talk. Um, and that's why I love coming on and doing things like this to get a. a wider audience, not just to support us, but to say, look, if that fat idiot can do it, surely I can do it as well. And I can go and talk to people.

Yoyo: 6:15

I have heard worse. Um, but listen. It's interesting that you talk about, you know, being in the pub, 20 pints and then getting in touch with your emotions and it's, it seems that for some, the wall to releasing and being closer to one's emotions is that thick. It's 20 pints deep. And that's quite a way to go, you know, even psychologically, it's quite a way to go. When I refer back to last night, I met up with a friend who I didn't see for the whole of last year. And we both had the kind of year where we were putting effort with people who were putting effort with us. And so we didn't see each other. So I reached out and I said, Hey, listen, let's sit and have a chat. Let's have a, let's have a burger in our local pub. We literally live stone's throw from each other. I sat and listened to my friend then I looked around me and we were the only people left in the pub and it was like 9 p. m. I thought, because it was a pub with restaurant area, and I thought, where are all the people talking? Why are we the only ones left here? And my God, is this pub going to survive if they don't do food? I get it. It's January, but I still expected to see more people in there talking. Is the diminishing of our general pub culture in the UK affecting the ability for men to get together and just talk, do you think?

Stu: 7:36

I think it's definitely going to have an impact on it and I really don't think I get why people do dry January, I really do, but having worked a bit in previous jobs in the pub industry, I've got a lot of friends who own sort of pubs and bars, I don't agree with it, although I accept it and I understand. But with, January is the worst month of the year for a lot of people. Need

Yoyo: 8:04

alcohol!

Stu: 8:04

It's 4, 365 days long until the next payday. You spend up to three or four months now building up to Christmas, hyping this one single day where everyone has to look perfect to not leave the house, and everybody has to do all of this food and complain about how much it costs to probably end up throwing half of it in the bin. We've got this huge builder, and then all of a sudden it's kind of Oh, that's it. And you kind of feel flat and empty, and that's for people that have got a lot on a big network around them. You've also got the people who find this time of year or pre Christmas really painful, because it's kind of rammed down their throat and sort of rubbed in their face that you haven't got anyone around you, you can't afford all these nice things on the adverts. so January's a real horrible time for a lot of people, regardless of what level of Christmas you had. And then all of a sudden we're encouraging everybody to stay at home, stay in the dark and not talk to anybody. So it's not helping whatsoever. And I think you do that, you have this dry January. I can't go to the pub without having a pint because I enjoy a pint. I don't have an issue. I don't have a problem with alcohol. I can choose to go or not go. It's not that I have to be there. But if I go, I'm going because I'm going to have a couple of beers with my mates. And getting people to stop drinking. A lot of men won't go to the pub and just have a diet Coke or a coffee. So it is killing the pub trade completely. And if you like me, I no longer play. Whereas I used to get sport training twice a week and playing on a weekend. So I'd see people three times a week. If you're not playing sport and you're just doing the school run, feeding the kids, and then it's dark. So you lock the door. You're not speaking to anyone. You're not going out. You're not having that social connection. that regardless of how many people like to think they're a lone wolf. By design, humans are, you know, we're animals of habit and we need that social connect, we need that social connection, that interaction with people, and it's just not happening.

Yoyo: 10:27

Even wolves have a pack, right?

Stu: 10:29

Absolutely.

Yoyo: 10:30

I understand why they're idealized, you know, wolves, I really do, but they also belong to a pack, and they also form, they have mates, and they have, babies, baby wolves. Okay, so. You've identified as an issue. Your mindset seems incredibly healthy right now. Do you find that you have to put a lot of work in yourself? Like, you referred to dry January. So I think we have to risk assess, don't we, our own mental health and our own physical health to make those decisions. Do I do dry January or if dry, somebody said, Stu, you know, January and December are very similar in terms of weather. It's just in December. You've got the parties and you've got the fun and the games and the family and the social and the in the great movies and the great tv. But January, you've just got the shit weather. And so it really is the worst month to quit the things that you love and that keep you social and active. So our advice collectively is definitely risk assess. One self to see if actually this is the right month for you don't just go along with the flow because everybody else is check that, you know, everything in moderation. Right. You can still go and have those socials. You can still have those drinks, but maybe not in the same, maybe more moderation than you used to. So it's finding a compromise. It's learning what works for you. And I think that's great advice from the both of us. How does founding and running the charity help you with your own personal mental health? How is it ticking boxes?

Stu: 12:05

Um, to start with, I think it was a huge welcome distraction. And then it's become a huge learning curve, obviously. I've talked about my background. I've never, I'd never ever entered into the sphere of mental health. I'd never even thought it was anything but weak and stupid and all those negative terms and phrases. So in terms of my own personal development and education, it's been huge. And again, they always say, learn new things, keep reading, keep the top two inches ticking over as much as you can. And it's certainly done that. Helping others has helped me, you get that. And it's. It's not selfish to feel good about helping somebody. We don't do it for a pat on the back, but it's nice when you get one. And then I think through this, I've kind of unpicked and unraveled my own background as well. And realized that actually I was probably so anti mental health and negative towards it for so long because I was struggling and didn't want to admit that maybe I was different to the people that could just put up and shut up and carry on because I felt sad a lot of the time or there were days I was really angry and I didn't know why I was angry but I just thought that was life because no one was talking about it. Which is now why I'm so passionate to get other people to sort of see that I was in the same place as a lot of people currently are in now. And you don't have to set up a charity to, to learn it. We go out and we'll, we offer sort of free support and training for places to try and get people to understand that it is a mindset that can change. And it doesn't mean you change as a person. It's just, you can be more accepting and understanding of. Those around you and most importantly yourself, like you said, you know, your focus this year is on your own health and wellbeing, the risk assessment, the personal risk assessment, it's the personal accountability as well

Yoyo: 14:05

yeah,

Stu: 14:06

we're all, we're all adults. We can all sit back sometimes and be really negative about ourselves. It happens. That's life. That's human nature. We don't like to look at the positives, we look at the negatives, because we're told that that's how we improve, rather than, well actually I did that really well, I'm going to carry on doing that. So, look at the negatives if you must, because you will anyway, you'll only ignore me if I say don't.

Yoyo: 14:31

No, no, you're right. You're right. Two people said the same thing to me. One was a hostage negotiator that I spoke to recently for the podcast and the other one who is a very, very good friend and osteopath. When I said to her last night, look, I've got a couple of real pressing niggles, aches and pains. I don't think my mattress is now very good for me. I think I probably need to switch out my mattress. I'm quite annoyed. It's only four years old. but I'm waking up with. pain in the morning with my hips and back. And she's like, well, you are of a certain age. Yo, I threw my drink over her and no, just kidding. and so we had this chat about, you know, me coming in to see her. And even though I've known her as a friend for a very, very long time, I wanted to just check in with her that she was comfortable treating me. because I think some people professionally tend not to like to treat friends. I'm hoping the fact we didn't spend a lot of time together last year will help. so yeah, I'm going to go in and see her. and the point was, it's about saying, you know, enough's enough. Now I've, I'm getting this pain. It needs to be treated. I've got a solution. I'm ticking the boxes. How important is it in our mental health journey to make sure that we are striving towards something, moving in a certain direction. The arrows are pointing forward. Do not look down. Do not look left. Do not look right. How important is it? Because that's a lot of orientation around purpose as well, isn't it?

Stu: 16:02

I think it's very important, but also we have to understand that, much the same with physical health, it's okay to slow down or go backwards at times. Me for example, I had surgery, over Christmas for an old rugby injury, and it annoyed me because I can't do the simple things like the shopping gets delivered and I can't carry a crate from the front door to the kitchen because I've got what is a tiny little plaster on my hand, but there's a big wound underneath it. And I think when you actually look at your mental health, it's okay sometimes that when it looks like it's okay on the surface.

Yoyo: 16:39

Yeah.

Stu: 16:40

It might be hurting more deep down and underneath. And if you can't carry that basket today, don't push yourself to do it because all you're going to do is more damage. So

Yoyo: 16:49

yeah,

Stu: 16:50

it's brilliant to try and look forward. And I love the whole don't look left, don't look right, don't look down. Just head on. Yeah. I think that's the attitude to have, but also the understanding that actually sometimes I just need to stay right where I am just today or just this week. I'm not gonna, I'm not going to unpack and stay here forever. And I've got to remember that as well, but just for today, it's a me day and I'm going to put everything on hold and don't be afraid to say no to things, you know, nowadays in society, everybody's, everybody thinks you're being rude if you don't want to go somewhere. You know, would you like to come? Actually, no. Oh, how dare you? It doesn't matter. It's all about you. If you don't want to go, don't go. And I get in a lot of trouble at home with that. I've, I've become, what did somebody call it? I've been very respectfully honest. So I was at a party and, uh, someone who used to bully me at school, over to me, tried to stop talking to me. And I just said, Look, you were horrible to me at school, I've not spoken to you in 15 years, we know who each other are, I know you don't like me, I don't particularly like you, so let's just spend the rest of the time at this party, nowhere near each other, and enjoy ourselves, rather than try and have this conversation. And a few people around me were like, wow, that was really harsh and rough, and I think I was respectful, I was honest. And neither of us left in a negative place because I stood my ground and said, well, do you know what, I'm going to be in a better headspace if I'm over on this side of the room with these people. And I wasn't rude, as much as everything inside me just said,, knock him out, do it now, now's your chance. You're finally bigger than him, knock him out.

Yoyo: 18:39

That was one of the things that, pat yourself on the back, Stu, that was one of the things that I really loved about COVID is that, you know, you could, you know, just stay away from things and blame COVID, but really you're just basically using COVID for an excuse not to do something and go out and maybe put some clothes on and put the face on and all that kind of stuff. I love the, I find it really hard now. Like I said to my friends, I'm quite reclusive, but I'm yet very social and I'm on meetings all day and I'm chatting to people all day. But I remember years and years ago when I used to be in telesales, you know, my first career in the nineties and, I know, do I look that old? I just remember developing a mindset of, I just don't want to pick up the phone in the evenings. I'm on the phone all day, right? So I stopped and I decompressed in the evenings. I didn't enjoy taking phone calls just because I was on them. All day at work. And now I guess because I'm facing people all day in my job, I don't really want to be out facing them, you know, in the evening as well. I think that decompression time is important, but knowing you need it is the trick. If I have to do something and I'm reluctant to do it. I can probably think about it several thousand unhealthy times in the timescale building up to that event. And I'm starting to think, would I just feel better? It's like going to the gym, you know, in January. Would I just feel better if I didn't go? I've convinced myself of like 999 reasons to not do it.

Stu: 20:19

I best not go because it's going to snow in six months time and what if that blows through quicker and I'll get snowed in and all, you know,

Yoyo: 20:25

exactly, exactly. a tsunami could happen, you know, in Milton Keynes. So yeah, it's, it's amazing. And I think we just have to be quite honest with ourselves, don't we, about what we enjoy doing and what we don't and prioritizing doing the things that we enjoy doing. As long as they're healthy and, you know, it's safe to do so. Have you ever been doing something quite simple like washing the dishes and then a negative thought washes over and it disappears and you're like, Ooh, what's that that just made me feel negative? So I try to find it again, I find it again, I'm thinking, What was that that just had that kind of dark feeling? What was that? And then I realize what it is, put a name to it and I'm like, Ah, okay. Uh huh. It's like, what's the name from the program in it? All right, then.

Stu: 21:17

Nessa.

Yoyo: 21:20

All right, then. Okay. Yeah, let's not do that. So it's sometimes I have to sort of find out what's making me feel negative. And then I can deal with it. Do you think that's normal?

Stu: 21:34

I don't think there is such a thing as normal nowadays. It's, it's you. And that's what makes you, you. Um, I would say it happens to a lot of people. I have, I have similar things. And I think. What we have to like your gym, the go to the gym analogy there, we catastrophize. So if there's something we don't want to do or something where there's living rent free in our heads that we're starting to worry about, anxiety is absolutely fine. It is fine to be anxious about something. It's the whole fight flight. Or freeze, mindset going back to sort of caveman times as to our stress response. It's okay to be anxious about things, but once it starts to live rent free for too long and we catastrophize, that's where it molds into something more serious. More of a diagnosis over time, but, I think it's normal, but as long as you're good, you know what? I'm going to be the boss of you. You're not going to own me. And as you said perfectly, I'm going to label you. And once you're labeled, I can talk about it then. I've got you, I've nailed you down, I've pinned you on the board and I'll deal with you later. I've got dishes to wash and the gym to go to, then I'll deal with you.

Yoyo: 22:47

Yeah. So a couple of things from my own perspective, and I don't suggest that they're for everybody, but when I chat to parents who are maybe struggling with their children, and I've had these conversations from when I was in the police, and I used to have parents come to me and say, look, I need some advice, police officer, about what to do with my boy and how to stop him climbing out the bedroom window at the age of 12. Um, okay, well, you lost control a long time before then. Um, and then, and then, you know, right through to, and I, and I didn't have children. Therefore, and that was a very conscious decision, don't get me wrong, I don't think my mother should have had children, but there's no mental scarring. I'm really super cool with that. I just knew that if I did have children, they would be hyper successful, but they would hate me. So I thought, yeah, let's just. Let's forego all of that. But, and that's because I have a control issue over what they would be allowed to do and not allowed to do. So they'd hate me. I wouldn't allow them to have mobile phones, for example, until they're 16. I don't care about the negatives to that. I don't think we should be giving children access to an adult world unsupervised. That's it. That's my stool. That's my pitch. What are you suggesting right now that the social media could be making mental health that people are struggling with and it exacerbate symptoms? Do you think, you know, Stu, and is there any guidance around what you can in your experience tell people about the negative impact of social medias?

Stu: 24:23

This is a show all in itself or an episode. My personal, I think my personal and professional views kind of align on this, I've always used social media personally to keep in touch with people because I was in the military. So for most people that haven't. Been in the military jobs like that. They've got their network quite close locally. I've kept, I keep in touch with people from around the world and social media has helped with that. And it's fantastic in the same way that tough enough to care uses social media to, to reach 60, 70, 000 people at once. it's really good. It's positive. It's fantastic. Sadly, I think that's probably only 5 percent of what social media does. The other 95 percent is just horrendous. And it hooks you in. I am as much of a victim as the next person. I get hooked in by the algorithm and I will. sit there on the toilet for an hour, doom scrolling, because it keeps you there. It just, you've got to watch the next video. You've got to see the next thing. It's all about. We see, again, we catastrophize and we look and say, well, I'm clearly not successful. I've done nothing with my life because that person there has got the house, the car, the holidays. Actually, what you don't realize is that person is in absolutely crippling debt, but they've got a smile on their face. You haven't got a smile on your face because you're true to yourself and you know what times are. And I think social media just amplifies and accelerates that. Social media is the bucket of petrol. On the bonfire of emotions

Yoyo: 26:03

Yeah, I agree. That is such a good analogy so now we're recognizing that social media is is a is It will light up your feelings and certainly magnify them. Okay, let's refer to the comment that Tony Blair gave earlier on this year. he basically said, Britain should stop self diagnosing with depression as, and I quote, the UK can't afford spiralling benefits bill. Now, I'm going to put a little perspective around this. The article, which is all over, social media and any reputable websites on news, I'm He's basically saying that the number of people with common mental health conditions has risen in recent years. We're talking post COVID really, alongside greater emphasis on society on awareness of such conditions. Now, I have an issue with that and I'll tell you why. I think you will too. Many people, he said, view this as positive as people are more likely to take action and seek help to tackle mental disorders and stop them from becoming worse. I think you will too. But Blair says, you know, we have warned that this has also resulted in some people medicalizing their mental health condition. There's another subject we're going to, I'm going to ask you about because we're going to talk about masking and how other people, you know, try to you know, diagnose their own Mental health. What he's saying is, according to the previous government, in a statement last year, the benefits bill is set to rise to 28 billion in just three years, which is a huge amount of money. And the logical kind of engineering brain inside me and you is probably thinking, well, why don't we put that 28 billion into maybe having a fifth emergency service that's there specifically set up, oh, I don't know, to meet, modern society's needs in terms of maybe the police, fire brigade, ambulance service, maybe we need another one now that is going to take some of that pressure off our hospitals and doctor surgeries and there's clinics people can just go to and walk in and say, I'm struggling and they will get the right support. Oh my God, wouldn't that be a magic?

Stu: 28:10

Yeah, it would be amazing. What's quite funny is that it would work perfectly, but funding from local authorities and local governments this year for mental health charities or charities across the board, but for mental health charities as almost non existent. So, as the problem increases, the amount of support has decreased, by an absolute landslide. And I think going back to Tony Blair's comment, we had a little discussion off air about Tony Blair and we'll agree to disagree on him. Yeah,

Yoyo: 28:44

it's good though. It's good to have two different perspectives. Oh, absolutely, yeah. Spicy, spicy chat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'd

Stu: 28:50

be boring if we all agreed, wouldn't it? I think there is there is something to what you're saying. Yes, people shouldn't be self diagnosing because unfortunately, Dr. Google probably incorrectly or misdiagnoses 99. 999 percent of the time. Oh gosh! We can go back to catastrophizing again when we go to Dr. Google. Um, I've got a little bit of a pain or an itch in my hand and next thing you know you've Yeah, you've convinced yourself it's something awful.

Yoyo: 29:26

Yeah.

Stu: 29:27

So I do get that. However, if people are trying to diagnose, they are trying to interact with their mental health. They are looking at themselves and going, you know what, actually, Maybe I do need to go and speak to someone, and the only person in the world that can diagnose or give a diagnosis of, um, a mental health illness is a mental health professional. So, you have to go to your GP first, they're almost a gatekeeper, then you go to a mental health, or your GP may have enough experience to give a, a professional, um, diagnosis, a clinical diagnosis on that. People can't just diagnose themselves, and, The whole spiraling benefits, they're not going to be able to pull the wool over anyone's eyes by saying, I've got depression, I can't work, there has to be a medical or clinical diagnosis of that to, to get any benefits. So whilst they get it, we need to stop trying to label everything because sometimes you just have a crap day and it's a crap day and it's not depression.

Yoyo: 30:33

Yeah.

30:36

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Stu: 31:29

It's brilliant that people are talking about it and the benefit debt is only going to increase when people have had this. professional diagnosis given to them, not a self diagnosis.

Yoyo: 31:43

There's also an addition to this. He basically says life has its ups and downs and everybody experiences those. He says, we've got to be careful of encouraging people to think that they've got some sort of condition other than simply confronting the challenges of life. So I don't think people are going to disagree with that. comment. But I think what can we do to help younger people, first of all, Um, realize that life has its ups and downs. I know when I have mentees, Stu, I quite often, you know, especially going back to talking to parents again, I encourage parents to keep their children in these recognizable zones of, look, it's an uncomfortable place to be. We need to recognize this is an uncomfortable place to be. This is what it feels like. it's okay. Uh, the idea is that we come out of that at some point. Usually it's parent teachers evening. very uncomfortable place, a bit of reality kicks in, you need to work harder, you know, you're not using your full potential, all those sorts of conversations come out and they feel dreadful. I think there's an acceptance that maybe parents have potentially protected children too much to not have them in those uncomfortable spaces. So I think we have to recognize that that's definitely a normal place to be from time to time. But how do we give people support when we know that life is hard? resilience is needed, but also we need to recognize when someone is struggling, and we both know people who do struggle every day with their mental health, it's a constant battle to kind of keep your chin above water. There's a huge delta, isn't there? A whole kind of, a whole, you know, you can see my hands going wide, but there's a whole left and right on this, and there's all the in between.

Stu: 33:28

We're, well, we're all on the mental health continuum and it's constantly moving as well, you know, good days, bad days, um, in different days that are just meh, you know, it's nothing. Um, I think what we, what we've been doing actually in the last sort of six, seven months, we have been concentrating, or not concentrating, working closely with, high schools and creeping into some primary schools as well to try and deliver some kind of resilience, training, and like you say, some reality. Life can and will be horrific, horrendous, tough, dismissive, but it can also be beautiful as well. So take the rough with the smooth, swings and roundabouts, all those different sort of phrases. I think as a parent to two boys myself, my lads are eight and 10. They're just starting to realize now that school's not just playtime, it's work time as well.

Yoyo: 34:29

And how's that coming, how is that manifesting? How are you discovering that? What are the symptoms?

Stu: 34:34

Oh, I get, I get screamed at, shouted at, but do you know what? They're coming back from school, they're tired, and I actually read a good article last year that apparently, as a parent, if your kid's coming back from school and just unleashing holy hell at you, It's actually a compliment because they're home and they finally feel safe and secure in that environment. Which, I keep reminding myself when I'm getting screamed at for cooking. waffles instead of smiley faces because it's Wednesday. Um,

Yoyo: 35:07

this is hard for parents, isn't it? Really?

Stu: 35:09

It is. And I think, but I think there's also more stress on not just parents, but adults at the minute than there ever has been, or a different type of stress than there ever has been. And now kids are seeing more of a stressful world because since I was at school, the school, the school day hasn't changed in time. They've still got the same amount of time. But the amount they're having to learn now has almost doubled. I'm going back to Dr. Google. I'm having to consult Google to help my kids with their homework. It is, and they're eight and ten. It's ridiculous. So there's all that added stress in the same space of time where we used to run around on the playground for three hours and hit each other with sticks and then come back and do our two times table. So I think kids, whilst they're having to be more resilient in a world that's more digital. So they're having to learn things quicker and stuff is faster. So to them, it's kind of in their face all the time. Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, constant. If when we were kids, if you wanted to order something out of the catalogue, you had to wait six weeks to see if the order had even processed.

Yoyo: 36:23

That's after the month of campaigning your parents to buy it. Yeah,

Stu: 36:26

exactly. No, it's well, if I can order it before 10 o'clock, it arrives today. So it's that fast paced world that is brilliant, but also doesn't give kids and young people a chance to just chill out. And I think that is where a lot of this kind of personal resilience. Is it's not helped there because they're constantly moving. They're not having time to work on themselves and to come back to your question about sort of like, where is it with people? How do we help people? It's all about slowing down. I think it's a in a world where everyone's too busy to get nowhere. It's okay to just go. Let's just pump the brakes and just think about this. Let's talk about this. And it's really tough and I've kind of gone off on a tangent here, but I'm, it's the resilience thing, I think, yes, adults, we can't teach everybody, but I think if we're going to start teaching anyone, let's go up the river and stop people falling in instead of just pulling everyone out of the river. let's teach these kids. The realities of life and resilience and teach them how a mortgage works and how tax works because they're the things that they're going to need to worry about and learn.

Yoyo: 37:45

Well, respectfully, I think if we use your river analogy, they're getting pulled out the river and then someone comes along and says, Oh yeah, you look a bit wet and walks away because there isn't anywhere to dry them off and to help them feel more normal again. So I, I think that's a really, really, really good analogy. So let's just say, you've got a man listening now and he's struggling every day with his mental health. He knows every day shouldn't feel as hard as it is feeling. we don't know anything about his journey or what he's going through. We know he's able to get through work. He's probably a high functioning. individual with, you know, some undiagnosed mental health, but this is a person that's struggling and shouldn't be struggling. What would your advice be the stage talking to that person?

Stu: 38:28

first and foremost, you're not alone. I can promise you that if you're, if you listen to this and you're struggling, you are not the only person that's going through something. So don't feel like it's. On a personal level that you're weak or have done something wrong because I promise you, you haven't, choose your audience. So with that, I mean, I've never really seen a negative response to somebody coming out and talking about them, their struggles, but they've chosen the right person to do it too. So me pre 2019 would have been completely the wrong person to come and speak to. Because I'd have just tried to find a way to put a smile back on your face almost instantly and pack you back out the door and see you later, or we'll have a pint together. Uh, but there will be people in your life. And if there's not people in your life, there are hundreds, if not thousands of different sort of outlets, um, depending on where you are in the UK. We do weekly peer support groups. There are other charities that do the same, and they are full of like minded men or other groups, like minded women, where you can just. Go in and talk about your day. And yes, other people will be going through things that are worse, but other people will just be having a good week as well. And it kind of levels it, and it's a nice space to, it's a safe, non judgmental space to just get it off your chest, and it's non clinical. And I think talking is the first step for anything. Before you try and self diagnose, before you go to a GP, Just try and talk to somebody because it helps you then unpack your thoughts. It basically, it helps you scatter the cards on the table and put them in a nice neat order to try and see what could be causing it or why you're thinking that way. And it might not, but still it helps you to look at your thoughts a lot better when you unpack and an offload on somebody that's willing to just listen to you.

Yoyo: 40:26

Have you seen Baby Reindeer's tune?

Stu: 40:28

I have, yes.

Yoyo: 40:30

I was able to unpack an awful lot from that. an awful lot. And I think, from a spectator's perspective, you know, incredibly unique, original, thought provoking, um, entertainment in the sense of, it's a box set. It's something you can binge with joy. I saved and I watched like one episode every night and sort of saved it and looked forward to watching it. But I took a lot from that in, in talking and the central character is a guy and he was incredibly lonely, wasn't he? And doing lots of things to connect with the world, but really lonely at the same time. What was your take from it without giving away the ultimate spoilers?

Stu: 41:15

Oh, how do I do without giving away the spoilers? I think I'd have to agree. He was just almost childlike in the way that he just wanted, he craved some attention from somewhere, and sadly whenever the attention was found or given, he clung onto it and kind of ran with it for dear life.

Yoyo: 41:37

Yeah,

Stu: 41:38

and it was really unhealthy attention and

Yoyo: 41:41

yeah,

Stu: 41:42

I think sometimes we can all be quite guilty of that in For me if I've got a hangover I crave Sort of a dirty takeaway and I've craved it all day and I'm there I'm savoring it at the same time I'm telling myself you're a dirty pig. You're a dirty dirty horrible, man We all do that kind of thing, you know, it's, we know it's bad. And I think the takeaway from that, sadly, he didn't realize how bad any situation had got until it was almost too late.

Yoyo: 42:17

Oh, gosh. Yeah. I mean, look, from the very first episode, we know he attracts a stalker, just by being kind and doing something very genuine, like offering a drink. Right, and yet you can see when you're watching it, why are you encouraging this woman to chat? Why? Don't encourage her. Yeah. Tell her to. and then you kind of, you get why, you know, there's a real play on his sentiment, his easygoing, he, there's times where he really feels for her in the sense he doesn't want any harm to come to her because, he's a human and he's got feelings and he doesn't want to be responsible for anything bad to happen to her. But then you kind of think, Oh, dude, don't do that., but underneath all of this, you know, you get the feeling that he kind of needs her too. And he doesn't understand why he does.

Stu: 43:10

Although it's a stalker relationship,

Yoyo: 43:12

it's,

Stu: 43:13

it's like a very unhealthy toxic relationship and whether that be with a person or habit or an addiction, it's that thing. It's, I know you're bad and I know you're wrong and we would be better off apart. I can't help but just be drawn, keep getting drawn back to you.

Yoyo: 43:33

Yeah, because he felt a void when she wasn't there, didn't he? That was really hard for him to deal with. Oh yeah. So I do recommend, everybody should see Baby Reindeer. I was one of the last ones to watch it, I felt, because I'd heard lots of, reviews and I couldn't say, people were just saying that it was intrinsically addictive to watch because of the journey he was on. every episode is giving. Right.

Stu: 43:59

No filler in between, was there? Every single episode, it was sort of edge of seat stuff.

Yoyo: 44:04

Yeah. And I can see why he wrote a book, a write, wrote a play on the elements of his life that were worth talking about because they are so worth talking about. But the overwhelming message I got from him was this loneliness that he had. And so it's very reminiscent, I think, to the point that When you hear, when I hear my friends go on dates with guys, the common feedback I hear is that the men talk too much about things they shouldn't be talking about. They're offloading. When I talked to my osteopath friend, especially during COVID, she said she felt people needed someone to talk to. They didn't need treatment. They just needed someone to listen. And so I couldn't help but connect all of these things, including the things we've been talking about today and see that there is a commonality, that there aren't the right platforms for people to generally.

Stu: 45:03

It's tough and it's funny you say about the, about the osteopath, people just want to offload. I heard something, it was a comment that I heard last year and it's, it's kind of true. Um, it probably could be phrased better, but a barber or a tattooist is a poor man's counsellor because Yes. You go in and you just offload. You're in a very personal, intimate space. You've got someone touching you, um, especially obviously with a tattoo. Most, I think the last one I went for was a four or five hour tattoo. So you're there with this one person for a long time. Um, you couldn't get more intimate than someone marking you for life. And I get on very well with my tattooist and he knows what I do. So we kind of It's a bit of a therapy session for both of us and we have a laugh about it so we know exactly what it is. But I think for a lot of people, they don't know what they're doing. They don't label it. They just, they think they walk out of there feeling better because they've got a tattoo or a new haircut. But actually, they feel better because that weight's been lifted for a half hour, 40 minutes, 5 hours, whatever it is. Yeah. we've lost the ability to have meaningful conversations unless somebody labels it as a meaningful conversation.

Yoyo: 46:22

Agreed and What, what will we say now to wrap up, we would say, have those meaningful conversations, know when you need to connect and keep those people around you as well. Don't push them away, keep them around you so that, you've got that support network to help you there's no one friend for everything. You have a friend for this, you have a friend for that, you for this. I think that's the secret to life, to be honest with you. Yeah, the right friend. and reach out to, my dear ginger bearded. You should be on Game of Thrones, Stu. You really should. I should say for anyone who hasn't seen Stu, he's he's a Viking man, aren't you?

Stu: 47:03

Do you know what? I have never watched a single episode of Game of Thrones.

Yoyo: 47:07

Oh, you should watch it. There's a really good ginger bearded character. I can't remember his name because he's Norwegian and, he's utterly my, my box set crush for, I think, 20, 2018. Uh,, and I think you would identify with him very, very easily. So you definitely watch it. Uh, and they give you an idea of what our Stu looks like. Stu Bratt, founder and CEO of Tough Enough to Care. Reach out to him. Stu, thank you so much for joining us on the Security Sec.

Stu: 47:33

Thank you for having me. but hope everyone's not falling asleep.

Yoyo: 47:36

No, definitely not. Not our listeners.