The Security Circle

EP 127 Secrets for Sale: Inside the Shadowy World of Corporate Espionage with former British Intelligence Officer Gavin Stone

• Yoyo Hamblen • Season 1 • Episode 127

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✍️ Short Podcast Summary:

In this gripping episode of The Security Circle, former British intelligence officer Gavin Stone lifts the veil on the murky world of corporate espionage. From railgun leaks in Korea to bugs in boardrooms, Gavin shares shocking real-world tactics used to infiltrate companies, manipulate insiders, and extract secrets. With wit, wisdom, and a touch of dry humour, he breaks down how naivety, greed, and ego are exploited—and why the greatest threat might be sitting at the desk next to you.

 

📌 Top Talking Points (Bullet Highlights):

  • What is corporate espionage and how it differs from state-level spying
  • Real-world tactics used to infiltrate companies—from “smile campaigns” to keyloggers
  • How even small behavioral shifts in employees can signal a leak
  • Case study: Tracking a railgun intelligence leak between Korea and Russia
  • Red flags in business: Sudden wealth, asking for access outside of role, and being “too helpful”
  • Why being a good spy is more about patience and boredom than action-movie drama
  • The psychology of betrayal: How money, ego, and dissatisfaction drive insiders
  • How technology—like charger ports and USB leads—can be weaponized for espionage
  • Celebrity and CEO vulnerabilities in the digital age
  • The importance of social and corporate resilience in the face of rising global instability

 

💬 Powerful Quote from Gavin:

“Spying is the most dangerous way in the world to make friends.”

Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

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Yoyo:

Hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. Welcome to the Security Circle Podcast. IFPO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, and we are dedicated to providing meaningful education, information, and certification for all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference to our members mental health and well being in 2025. Our listeners are global, they are the decision makers of tomorrow and today, and we want to thank you wherever you are in all of our 151 countries around the world for being a part of the Security Circle journey. If you love the podcast, we are on all podcast platforms. And don't forget to subscribe or even better, just like, comment and share the LinkedIn post. Thank you for your company today. Well, I'm bringing back this man because an hour wasn't long enough. We were going to tackle a number of different subjects and I said, you know what, this subject is so good. I've been so curious about it for such a long time. Let's bring him back. Gavin Stone. Welcome back to the Security Circle Podcast. How are you doing?

Gavin:

I'm good. Thank you. You must be a sucker for punishment. What can I say? I know.

Yoyo:

I should, I should be in whale rescue, sucker for hard luck cases. Um, so listen, you, you were incredibly successful.

Gavin:

That's okay. Leave it in. I don't mind.

Yoyo:

Listen, I Unlike you, I have had my coffee this morning. So I am I'm praying for your survival as you haven't had a coffee yet Um, but uh, we'd be pretty the fool that doesn't make good planning, right gav

Gavin:

That's true. That's true

Yoyo:

But look, you were incredibly successful last time you came. And of course we talked a little bit about some of the adventures you'd gotten into when you were working for British Intelligence. Now, this is the subject that I've been very curious about. It's about corporate espionage, and I thought, who better to talk to about this? Tell us what the term corporate espionage means.

Gavin:

So I mean, in kind of, um, layman's terms, as it were, if you look at the fact that espionage itself is just a method of obtaining secrets, and it's usually related to governments obtaining other government secrets. So corporate espionage is, um, basically when you have, sorry to say, rival companies, and one is trying to find out the secrets of what the other one's up to, or get information on, um, I mean, Just hypothetically, uh, that could have done six months of research into a product. And if you find out what that research is, you've then saved yourself six months of research and giving yourself a headstart. So you can, you can, there's all manner of different areas and aspects of it, but you know, it's mainly obtaining information from your rivals, shall we say.

Yoyo:

I'm going to be quite flippant here because I'm not an expert, but I've read things recently, healthy things. It's a shame that we have to premise our conversation with that. I've read healthy documents about how a certain country seems to have a mirror. image of a lot of our, aircraft, certainly from the UK or the United States, they've literally got a model of plane that's identical. It's like they stole the blueprints. You can see there's a lot of benefit to stealing information, but if you're really good at it, surely everybody knows you're trying to steal it anyway, right?

Gavin:

Everybody is up to it, every country is up to it, and, you know, and all the different, like, kind of, the big companies like Boeing and that kind of thing, they're all the rivals, I shouldn't say that, should I, uh, but, they know what's going on, they know what's happening, and, you know, that, They, they kind of, they used it and do what they can to regulate it. But yeah, within every country, a lot of intelligence is also shared, uh, amongst kind of allied countries and that kind of thing. and in the corporate world, you do have somebody who ends up leaving one particular corporation and they go over to another. So it might not necessarily be. direct espionage, but they go over to another and say, Oh, well, when I was at Airbus, we used to do it like this. Or when I was, you know, so and so we used to do it like that. and it kind of leaks. Yeah.

Yoyo:

It's interesting. It's from a normal perspective. I've known people who've said, Oh, you know, um, if you want a good, process, use this one, we used it. In our previous company. It's a really good process. I updated it, you know, regularly. So I'm really quite proud. I think it's the best process we've got. But, and so we're using it where I am now., that's a kind of loose example, isn't it? Of how you're using sort of IP from, from one company and applying it in another company.

Gavin:

Yeah. And I mean, usually there are contracts in place to kind of say, look, you know, whatever, whatever you create while you're here is ours. but. It doesn't always work, and a variation of something similar is not the same, so therefore they can kind of get away with it, as it were.

Yoyo:

So, um, do you watch, um, James Bond, um, Gavin?

Gavin:

I used to when I was younger, um, I'm kind of, um, I mean, I have seen them all, so I will admit to that. but it's more for entertainment.

Yoyo:

he's a cool guy, isn't he? He is. Um, why is James Bond such a far, such a far, far Delta away from the truth and you know, why is this a franchise that just continually makes money?

Gavin:

so the reason it's so far away from reality is because, you know, he's the world's most famous spy. And if you're famous and a spy, the two kind of don't go hand in hand. If everywhere you go, everybody knows who you are. You know, you've, you've kind of lost the advantage there a little bit. Um, and then on, on the, on the other side of things. Uh, yes, we might have training for things like car chases and shooting and explosions and that kind of thing. But if you're doing all of that, then your job's gone terribly wrong. Um, and you know, you shouldn't be in the industry or you probably won't be in that country anymore.

Yoyo:

Are there, are there, um, any particular, I think you're right, you can't be a spy and then be so high profile. But in fact, I think they kind of play on that, don't they? Because it's like, oh, hello, Mr. Bond. Yeah, we've been expecting you, that sort of thing. I remember when I joined the police gammon. and the bill was still on, It was coming to the end of it, you know, but it was still on. And, and for those across the pond, you know, the bill was a running cop soap,, that was quite good. Everyone used to watch it, mainstream TV made of characters, not real events. And I remember we were at the police training college watching an episode and we were just going, what a load of rubbish, you know, so far from the truth. And literally, I'd gone from loving something to really kind of mocking it because I was like, that's not even a lawful arrest. They didn't even caution him, you know, there's all these kinds of things going on and we're all laughing at it. And I guess probably, my dad was a deep sea diver, for example, and the abyss was one of my favorite movies. And he just literally popped the bubble for me and said, there's no way on God's earth that would happen, in a sense of how they could do those things at those types of pressurized environments. It's pretty much the same, isn't it for you?

Gavin:

To a degree. Yeah. So, um, I mean, in reality, if we went through, if we, if we did either a book or a movie on what spying was really like, it will be the most boring book or movie in the world because it is 99 percent boredom. But when that 1 percent happens, when you go to that 1%, just for that, that little bit of time that you get the action. It's a different world all together and it's a roller coaster ride. So, so there's a little bit of both and, and the truth of the matter is so many things can and have gone wrong in the middle of an operation. And that's the moment where you have to be dynamic and you have to go, what do we do? And you have to just fix it and roll with the punches.

Yoyo:

Is there anything you can tell us?

Gavin:

Um, I can mention a couple of things. I mean, so there's a friend of mine from MI6 who was, he goes through, several different, scenarios, and I think he's mentioned this one before, so I should be okay with this. He went to a meeting, we, so there's lots of precautions, there's a particular order that you do things when you're meeting, Well, say an agent, uh, you know, an asset, an informant, whatever you want to call them. It changes from industry to industry. Um, so you're meeting them and you take all the precautions to make sure they're not followed, you're not followed, the room is clean that you're meeting and so many other things. and then the first thing you do, as soon as you meet that asset straight away, the most important thing is to set up the next meeting because you don't know how much time you've got. So you might only have a few seconds before you're interrupted. The whole thing has to be called off. So you have to. You know, at least know when the next meeting is. Anyway, he'd gone through all the security precautions, done everything. And this was in a foreign country. and he'd put the sign on the door of the hotel to say, do not disturb. gone into the meeting and it was about 10 seconds into setting up the next meeting. And there's this knock at the door and the door starts to open. And it was panic stations for a moment because, and it's like that moment of. Who's that? Who could it be? Have I been compromised? All the possibilities that flood into your head. It's like your heart jumps into your mouth, literally. And it turns out it was room service because the do not disturb sign, it was in a foreign language. You put it the wrong way around and the opposite side said, please come in and clean the rooms. So it's, so yeah, even with the, the most kind of, um, strategic and kind of meticulous planning, sometimes it's these silly little things that can end up going desperately wrong at the last minute because of just one slight overlook and getting into a routine.

Yoyo:

That's crazy, isn't it? Are there certain group of businesses that are more high profile targeted more when it comes to corporate espionage?

Gavin:

I think, I mean, obviously the bigger ones, um, I can't, I won't say who they are, but I will say there are two large competing, phone companies and I've done work for both of them. Um, and it's quite funny because you go over to one and it's all about the product and the customer and they're going. Um, what can we do to make the experience better? How can we make this phone better? How can we make it faster? How can we make the battery last longer? Whatever the case may be, whatever it is, their project they're working on. And you know, it's, it's all about the product and delivering the best they possibly can. And then go over to the other one. And it's all about screwing over the first one. It's, yeah, they're looking at, and, and it's, it's really, really crazy. What are they doing? You know, it's like that kid who sits at the desk next to you and go, what are you doing? I'm going to draw something better. You know, and, and, and that's, and that's why the one is always ahead of the other. and I'll leave the rest to your imagination. I'm not going to divulge names.

Yoyo:

No, no, no. We wouldn't expect you to. I certainly don't want any strange knocks at the door. So, are you saying then that the one that is focused on the competition is the one that's more successful? Or is it the one that's focused on the customer and the product is the one that's more successful?

Gavin:

The one that's focused on the customer and the product is the one that's more successful.

Yoyo:

Oh, thank God! There is goodness in the universe.

Gavin:

There is, yeah. So, in

Yoyo:

essence, let's take company number two. They're so focused on the present, they're not looking at the future, whereas the other one's looking at the future. And I guess, really, even if you were to compare two kids in a class, you know, the one that's always coming up with the ideas is never going to be worried about, say, someone stealing their idea because they're always coming up with better ideas. So wow.

Gavin:

Um, I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm sure it's probably annoying, you know, but, uh, but at the same time, it's something that, you know, the product speaks for itself. And, um, and like I said, the, the kind of feeling in the room is all about kind of getting one over on company number one, rather than trying to deliver something of excellence for the customer. And that's why they're, then they're always going to be behind the curve. So. You wonder

Yoyo:

this though about Pepsi and Cola, you know, Coke, sorry, Pepsi and Coke because I saw this really cool video yesterday and it's on, it's a TikTok, viral kind of thing, but basically the tagline is. Pizza's always best when chased with a Pepsi. So, they got these, this special souped up sports car with Pepsi logos all over it. And it was there literally following and chasing pizza delivery. And they were running to the door at the same time and they were doing this exaggerated racing beat you've got here. And of course the delivery drivers were getting absolutely fed up with it. there's this one clip of somebody getting some Pepsi going, Oh my God, that's great. Cause there's nothing better than a Pepsi and some pizza. What a great pairing. And then the Pepsi chaser said to the delivery guy, just like you and me and the delivery guy rolled his eyes. And I'm thinking. So those two businesses went head to head, didn't they? A long time ago with Pepsi challenge

Gavin:

and

Yoyo:

Pepsi were very bold and they said, listen, we were going to put it out there that you're going to prefer our Coke. You know, I don't think Pepsi said you're going to prefer our Coke. So I guess some companies are used to the contours of just competing with each other. what sort of situations have you been in? Where you've witnessed some genuine, you know, attacks on, a business's IP.

Gavin:

What I'm going to do, I'll start off with going back to when I first got into intelligence, if that's all right with you. And the kind of the misconceptions that I had, because I was very much Hollywood educated, you know, about, I expected a completely different scenario of, you know, going into a room and seeing the slideshow of, you know, this is the criminal we're looking for. And this is the island he lives on. And, you know, all the kind of, um, The, the, the briefing that you see on TV and, you know, you expected to get parachuted in and all that. And, and of course it was, it was completely different. And I was sat down in a room and I was actually given my assignment in one sentence. And that was go on, find out how Russia are getting railgun information out of Korea.

Yoyo:

How they're getting

Gavin:

railgun information.

Yoyo:

Railgun. So had you heard of that before?

Gavin:

Didn't know what a railgun was. Okay. And that was, that was it. I mean, instead of a slideshow or a presentation or forms or files or a parachute or anything else, what I was told was what are you still doing here? Um, I was like, oh, okay, not much to go on. And I remember, you know, kind of walking out, kind of scratching my head, thinking, okay, find out how Russia are getting railgun information out of Korea. How the hell am I going to do that? Um, and that's probably what a lot of people are kind of, you know, how, how, how is that going to happen? So what I did, I reverse engineered it. And, and this is, uh, where people should be looking when it comes to corporate espionage. I thought to myself, okay, if I wanted to get railgun information out of Korea, how would I do it? And that's where I started. So I looked at, um, uh, so the first obvious thing is to search railgun experts. Um, there's not many of them. Um, they don't do this course down your local kind of, uh, you know, you can't go online and buy a Railgun, um, you know, kind of training. So there's, there's very few Railgun experts. Um, so that, that helps narrow the field exponentially. And then what you've got then is you can see which ones are associated to career, which ones are, who's doing what, where they're working, what they're working on, and so on and so forth. And then what I found, I found was one particular guy. I was working in Korea and he'd written certain articles with his Russian counterpart, uh, and then it was like, ah, there we go. So when I investigated the Russian counterpart, he'd got ties to the Russian embassy and it just basically went on from there, did a few checks and investigated, took a bit further and there it was. Wow.

Yoyo:

So without the ego behind the article. Mm-Hmm. that's kind of what's dropped the minute really, hasn't it? Having something that linked the two of them together in the public sphere.

Gavin:

Yeah. So, um, you know, and of course, so here, here's the thing. If you and I were, if I turn around to you for example, and said, Hey, I'm writing this article on security and podcasts and how the two affect each other, or whatever the case may be, and I said to you, would you contribute to it? I've got no reason to believe that. You know, you would have any objection to doing so. So it would look weird if you said, Oh no, I don't want to be on an article with you anywhere or, you know, and in the public eye and connected. So that's something that it would naturally appear a problem. So the Railgun guy, you know, assumed, I reckon that, you know, this isn't an issue for me to write an article co written with this particular Russian and, uh, and release it.

Yoyo:

Wow. It just goes to show, I mean, naivety must play a lot into, take, take us through how naivety figures into the kind of relationship or the relational area of corporate espionage.

Gavin:

So I've worked with this many times in the scenario of if I need particular information from whether it's a corporation, whether it's a government, whatever the case may be, there's a particular process and it's basically, it starts with setting the requirements. So what is it exactly that you're after? Then you do something called targeting. So who has access to that particular information? You know, within the company, within the government, within the structure, whatever the case may be. And as soon as you've then got your, uh, list of people who has access to the information that you require, you then narrow it down even more to say, right, which one has the more, or the more, which one will be easier to kind of infiltrate their life and be motivated? to give me that information. And then, you know, you start your campaign from then on there, integrating yourself into that person's life. Uh, and this is why I say spying is kind of the most dangerous way in the world of making friends. And then built from there, you just build the relationship.

Yoyo:

In fact, I mean, the beginning of Julian Fisher's book is very much like that, isn't it? And I read that to him in his podcast. Um, and he said, I've never had anyone read my book back to me before, but what in your opinion makes somebody more likely to betray their country or betray their company? What are you looking for?

Gavin:

So there are a mixture of things. So, I mean, everybody has different motivations. The most common one is simply money. Yeah. Yeah. And it's as simple as that. there are many others. Sometimes you can get somebody who's disgruntled somebody you can get somebody who's disillusioned, but the majority of the time it's simply money. And it could be down to the fact that that person has a gambling debt. It could be down to personal debts. It could be down to, uh, they, they want something. There's a life event. There could be any number of things, or if the profile fits simply just greed. I don't know anybody. I don't think I've ever met anybody in my life who just turns down money. So, you know, um, if you, if you saw a few thousand on the floor, you wouldn't walk past it. So, you know, it's, everybody has that desire for a little bit of extra cash, no matter how rich they are.

Yoyo:

I suppose you're right. I kind of want to challenge you. But I can't think of any good examples.

Gavin:

I mean, don't, don't get me wrong. You, you will not go to, uh, I mean, so if you go to a Swiss banker and say, right here's, you know,$10,000, will you tell me secrets on this particular person? They're not going to say yes. Uh, and it's not going to work like that. It works in a very, very, it, it's a very gradual and very subtle way. So you, it's, it's not, it's, it's not sledgehammer type, uh, tactics. Um, I mean, we, we, so the, the whole thing. Has to build up from generally from nothing. So, uh, an instance I'll give you was, um, there's a Russian diplomat in London and he, uh, basically walked his dog in a particular area in London every single day. So over time we had an operative and her job was to walk the dog in the opposite direction at the same time. And it was just. Every morning, repeat the same process and begin what we nicknamed a smile campaign. And that then builds up to a wave or a smile or a hello and hello becomes a conversation, a conversation becomes a friendship, and that's when you, you build on it from there. Uh, and that, that's literally how it goes with the, there are other instances where you can do what's called the bump and that's when you will go straight in. You will have. profile the person to the point where you know so much about them and you will, you will arrange to be inside the same coffee shop at the same time and you'll just strike up a conversation that seems natural, seems kind of completely coincidental and, and, um, you know, unplanned, but the whole thing has been planned from the beginning.

Yoyo:

Interesting. So in fact, Strava is being used a lot now, isn't it? To track people's movements. I should imagine, uh, intelligence services have been using it for a long time.

Gavin:

The, I've got to be very, very, very careful here, but what our intelligence services and what the U. S. intelligence services have got access to would blow your mind.

Yoyo:

Yeah, I bet.

Gavin:

It's yeah, it's scary. Um, can I give you a nugget?

Yoyo:

while you think about it, look,, I managed three dentists, data centers at one stage, and you know, we had, we had very, very, very strict rules about who could come in and who couldn't, but there were always some very rather odd circumstances where people would come in and they would have a clearance I wouldn't know about, and they would go to certain areas that were super restricted and. And it's like, I made a conclusion right then that these were British services. Of course they would be, it wouldn't be anybody else. It's like, they might as well come in with a parachute saying, you know, MR5 coming in. We're not stupid and it wasn't necessarily their behavior that That was odd. It was the behavior of everybody else who knew who they were. That was odd. That when you tell someone a secret or tell someone to keep something quite private, they just give loads of tells like they can't, they do this whole kind of like, yeah, I can't say anything. Well, why say that? So I don't know how people need to be. If people are going to be the holder of secrets, they need to hold them better because they're the big giveaways.

Gavin:

Yeah, it's being aware of, of kind of the people around you is a massive challenge. And I mean, in those circumstances, if I was going into somewhere like that, I'd be wearing an overalls and with a clipboard and that way, you know, but the problem is without going. Without being too mean to a lot of the, the intelligence services is, can be with some people, the ego.

Yoyo:

Really? Because of the access, the privileges are all, and again, you see this in human behaviors when people know more than somebody normally would. There is this. You know, the tells again, that, in fact, I'll tell you a funny thing. I sat in a beautiful little coffee shop in Crouch End and I'd sat next to a very famous actor called James McAvoy. And he was there with his wife and his baby was in a pram at the time. And the lady friend opposite me, I kept sort of like. doing this with my eyes, you know, as if to say, look, look, look, because, you know, in London, all coffee shops, you're six inches between each table. and I'm going like this with my eyes to see if she could look, if she looked at me and she went, are you all right? I went, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. Anyway, I thought, screw this woman. If you can't pick up my signals, I am not going to tell you. And I sat through the whole thing, like, half listening to him, half listening to her. and then when we left, I said, oh my god, did you not see who sat next to us? And she's like, no, I was focused on you, Yo Yo. I was such a shit friend. and yeah. Should have sent

Gavin:

a text message.

Yoyo:

Yeah. But I'll be honest with you, the last thing I would have done is gone up to him and said, Hey, love your movies. Can I have an autograph? I would just, I would do anything but that. I've seen people like that, avoid it. I don't like that kind of way people behave, but some people are quite shamelessly, um, embarrassing. Yeah.

Gavin:

Going back to, and this is, we've gone really off pace here because I used to do a little bit of close protection work when I stopped working in intelligence, I used to do the training for a company in Kent and one or two other things, and we were looking after a particular gentleman, and I actually hate celebrity work. I've done it a few times and I can't stand it because you're guaranteed to get mobbed every time you go out. and the particular gentleman, I'm not going to say who he is because he's actually got a contract that says if you ever tell anybody that you've worked for me, you'll never work for me again. And there are a lot of other people that have a, like a bit of a pact saying that, you know, so, so if ever you see like resumes with people that are saying, I've worked for this celebrity and that celebrity and this. It stands a chance usually that they're not being truthful, anyway, the long and short of it is we were there and, uh, we, I took care of him and his ex wife for the night. it was all done and that was it. And at the end of it all, uh, got a congratulations, you know, you did a really professional job. Thank you. And that was it, contract over. It was only a one, one off thing. I was quite happy with it. And my wife turned around to me. She says, so did you get a selfie? I was like, no, I said, I'm there to kind of stop people doing that. You know, and she said, Oh, I would have, I said, I know exactly. I said, that's why you don't work in the industry. So, but yeah, it's, yeah, it's one of those things. So you get some celebrities who. They love the attention. You get some celebrities who don't want to be pestered at all. And then you get others that they're aware of who they are and what they are. And I'll say, look, let a few, a handful come and say hello and have a photo and whatever else, but then for the rest of the night, when I'm having my meal with my ex wife or whatever, keep them away from me. So, And that's the hardest part because you've then got to turn around and then start arguing as well. He had one and she had one. Why can't I get one? And so I've got to know what to say. You've got to be like, well, look after they've had their meal. Maybe I'll, you know, we can try them, but let them have their meal first. You've got to be diplomatic. You know, and that's the difference between a bouncer and a close protection operative. Huge

Yoyo:

difference. And I like the professionals that you hear stories about, the celebrity. Doesn't really get recognized, but the only way you spot them is because you can see that they've got very strategically positioned people around them. Yeah. Entourage, I think, kind of. And belittle the value of a bodyguard in a sense, can't they? Because the bodyguards got a very specific job to do that. And that's more low profile because a lot of celebrities do just want to go out in the jeans, wear a baseball cap and just go and do something, but it's incredibly challenging. And I remember Julia Roberts saying recently, somebody said to her, what would you do if you could be not famous for a day? And she was like, well, I go here, I do this because she literally probably gets mobbed everywhere. Poor girl. yeah. Anyway. Let's look at behaviors again.'cause the behaviors piece is incredibly interesting. We know that people behave differently when they have access to greater information. Knowledge is power. We know that, those red flags can come up, very easily. Let's look at corporate espionage again and look at how employees can behave differently in business in BAU because you know that they've turned and you are looking for certain. behavioural signs. What's that like?

Gavin:

So what, there are two things to look for. Um, I mean, well, actually there's a multitude, but two of the most common is if you find you've got a disgruntled employee and for whatever reason, they are just not happy in their job. But then all of a sudden that same employee starts asking about projects and what's going on here, what's happening there. Areas that are outside of their normal. Like kind of, you know, day-to-day routine as it were. Um, especially if they start asking for more specific information and that kind of thing. These are like, I, I, I know it sounds obvious, but it, the, these are like kind of cautionary areas to, to start with, to, to, to look for. Um, and so, I mean, we can, we can like kind of drill down on these a little bit more in a minute. Um, but then the other one. Is also somebody who all of a sudden is a hell of a lot happier and nothing seems to have changed, but life seems to be getting a lot better for them. Uh, you know that they're, they're no longer driving the Buick and all of a sudden they've got a lovely big shiny Cadillac and they're no longer wearing the polyester suits. They've all of a sudden got the Gucci suits and, and things like this. And they seem to be.

Yoyo:

Obvious.

Gavin:

Yeah, you'd be surprised. You'd be really surprised. I mean, this is how in the past certain people have been caught, certain spies have been caught, and it's not to do with anything other than the fact that the cash, and to be fair, I'm sure you know, being in the police industry, um, you know, your time in law enforcement, there has to be times that you've come across people where they've Um, I mean, I know for example in, in Wolverhampton, uh, there's a council estate, uh, you know, government housing where everybody's struggling and on the drive of this rundown estate is a 200 grand yellow Ferrari convertible that looks like a fish out of water. And you think, yeah, I wonder what he does. Um, so, so I'm sure you've come across it yourself. If you go, um, you know, if you look at the majority of the homes of any drug dealers, They're not living in poverty.

Yoyo:

I had a situation once where a police officer, an older police officer was very, uh, withdrawn and he was always, smoking all the time. Like every five minutes he'd be out for a cigarette and he stunk of cigarettes and it was so bad. I couldn't sit near him. I certainly couldn't go in a patrol car with him. and it turned out later that I'd rumbled he was drinking. He was masking the smoking to, to cover the smell of alcohol, vodka in particular. He was found out eventually, but even then, what an employee has to go through behaviorally, when they know another colleague isn't doing the right thing, isn't behaving normally and all the signs are there, most people, I think. don't, even though they know they should. Why is that?

Gavin:

Um, so with with like your your third party there, um I think it probably goes back to school of like, you know, the whole kind of snitches get stitches and don't be a grass and all that kind of behavior. Um, where, you know, we should really tell somebody, but at the same time, I think a lot of people. Tend to want to see and assume the best in others. So therefore they don't wanna go. I think he's stealing information and selling it to the competition. They'll probably default to guy's obviously going through some stress, or I don't particularly like him, so I'll just avoid him, or that kind of thing. Um, and therefore it'll, it'll kind of take that route more so than, than going down the route I've gotta go and tell my superior. They don't wanna also be going with like, small talk and tilt and, and don't wanna be the, the, the, the, the rumor starter or the, you know, the kind of. You know, and I reckon also there are probably superiors who are the kind of people you go into their office and you tell them and they'll just look and go, yeah, don't be that person, just go out and do your job. So there has to be a reception there for it as well.

Quick heads up for all the security industry. There's a brand new book coming out that you don't want to miss. It's called The Professional Protection Officer, practical Applications to Succeed in the Security Industry. It's the 10th edition and it's led by Sandy Davis from Ifpo. This 10th edition is packed with real world guidance, career tips and insights from over 40 experts. We're talking everything from patrol basics. To emergency response investigations, leadership, you name it. It's just what Ifpo love to deliver. And here's the best part. On May the 15th is totally free to download. Plus you'll get a free ifpo membership just for grabbing your copy. Keep an eye out for it. We'll keep reminding you and I'll drop a reminder when it goes live.

Yoyo:

And it's survival, isn't it? For a lot of people, who will avoid doing even ethical things because they know it's better to keep your head down. It's a survival technique. When, how do you deal with, have you ever had a situation where you've successfully been able to build a relationship with a mark, but then you found them wobbling? Their ethics are kind of troubling them.

Gavin:

Um, not so much ethics, uh, but, but more so, um, the, the concern for their safety or their family and that kind of thing. And it gets to the point where you can only dangle the carrot for so long. So this is, this is where the movies differ from reality. The movies, it's, it's all about one fire or stopping one explosion or Catching one criminal or, you know, there's always, you know, as with any good story, there's a beginning, there's a middle and there's an end. Where espionage in reality is very, very different to that. You, you'll find yourself, um, and whichever terminology you want to call it, an asset or an informant or whatever the case may be. And the idea is not to get that one file. And then give them a passport and a home somewhere else in another country. And that's it. The idea is to send them back right where they came from, even though they could be really, really miserable and unhappy, and put them back where they came from. And for as long as they possibly can to keep giving information. So that in itself. Will cause them more stress, more unhappiness, more, you know, and again, you've got to do it for as long as you possibly can, because we need access and we never know how much access we're going to need or when something else is going to come up where we say, Oh, we need to go back in there and get this for us or so eventually it gets to the point where. you milk it for as much as you possibly can. And then they said, look, I'm done now. I want out. I want to, I want the, I want the passport. I want the new life. I want whatever it is that you've promised me. And, and, you know, it's too much. I think I've been compromised and I need out. So, yeah.

Yoyo:

This recent story in the press about the guy who escaped prison, I mean, he's really kind of made a bit of a joke of himself, hasn't he, really, because he's, there's just, there's more to this, you can't help but think there's more to this. For reference, I'm talking about the British Iranian guy who broke out of prison and when he was caught, said that he felt that, people should know what his skill set was and, that he was capable of breaking out of And he was apparently, communicating with Iranian intelligence, but also trying to get a job with MI5 or MI6. And you just can't help but think there must have been some jokes along the way with this journey. What do you make of this guy?

Gavin:

So he's probably somebody who wants to be something more than what he is and, he's kind of demonstrating publicly, look at me and how amazing I am. You should hire me, but really now that I've got the public eye, nobody in their right mind is going to hire him. So, um, yeah, well and truly. Um, so, but, um, maybe, maybe he might be able to milk it for some kind of. story somewhere along the line, but it'll be short lived. It'll be very flash in the pan. Um, He's probably had designs on wanting to be or work in the intelligence world for a while and just done whatever he can to kind of get in that world. Maybe he's been laughed at a lot by, uh, other people who said, you're never going to be that person. Um, so therefore he's kind of, uh, put himself in the paper saying, look at me now. which didn't really work out or do him any favors in the long run. I've got,

Yoyo:

I've got to talk about Operation Mincemeat. Because we can't have a conversation around corporate espionage or espionage without looking and referencing world two, because there was an incredible amount of espionage and intelligence seeking going on. And it was primarily about preserving human assets that had a special skillset. i. e. they could make atom bombs or they were certain types of scientists or, they knew, I can't remember the recent thing that I've seen. I can't remember what they wanted him for. It was a classic movie, called Night Train to Munich. And if you love, you know, film noir, it's got the most handsome young Rex Harrison, who is, an old man in My Fair Lady. And I'll be honest with you, I didn't click with him in My Fair Lady, but I've just connected the two together now, so I've had this kind of epiphany and I'm like, oh! But Rex Harrison was acclaimed in this movie, A Night Train to Munich. Because he played a British intelligence character, he played, a German major, as well as himself. And it launched his career as an actor. He was an incredibly good, he basically infiltrated the Germans to try and get to a woman and her father. And the father was being prevented from leaving a country in Europe and they wanted to take him to Germany somewhere to get his, to explain. To get him to work for the Germans. And of course, Rex Harrison's character as a British agent was to be a major in the German army, which is quite easy. He didn't have to do a German accent because it's an English spoken movie, but he was amazing to watch. And you can't help but think, you know, that was one asset. That was one human, the criticality around each side in a war. having those assets at that particular time in our evolution. Oh, it was a steel coating that meant that weapons were preserved longer. And it's quite a critical thing. And then you look back at the Operation Mincemeat, for example, which is where the British government successfully managed to convince Germany. Through laying misinformation in a convincing way that, United forces were going to attack in a certain location. Of course they didn't, they attacked somewhere else, completely unexpected. You, when you look at the micro detail of each of those operations, how significant that one asset can be, you start to get a really big appreciation for the spy world.

Gavin:

Oh yeah. And there were so many things that could have and did go wrong in Operation Mincemeat, but then somehow by pure chance and miracle worked out in our favor. Because when the Italians got the information, They weren't going to hand it over. They refused. They, and which at first was a panic because we thought, well, we need it to get into the hands of the Germans and they were refusing to give it to them. Eventually, it actually did us a massive favor because it looked more genuine. It looked like more valuable. Yeah, exactly. So when it was handed over, it was kind of, oh, you know, rather than just kind of, yeah, you go, we found this, it really was something that, like I said, it is a huge favor, but yeah, there are so many different things with any intelligence operation that can go right or wrong. Uh, and, and like I say, I've been there and done it. I've had that many things in the past. And so if we go back a few years, and you'll be able to tell how many years it is because we were after documents and paper. So back when things weren't all electronic. Somebody had a particular document that he kept in the, in his briefcase. And the idea was, was to kind of go into his office while he was on his lunch break. Uh, I was one of a team of three. And we were meant to get this, uh, particular document out of his briefcase, get a copy of it, or take the whole thing, whichever we could do. And then get the hell out of there. And the long and short of it was, um, we'd followed him. We, you know, we were at his office. Uh, we waited till he went on his lunch break. And away he went on his lunch break. We confirmed he didn't have the briefcase on him when he went on his lunch break. So we went right into his office. Um, we went up to the office, no briefcase up there. And then we're like, Oh, hang on a minute. So we got through to the guy who watched him leave home. Did he have the briefcase on him when he left home? It's like, yes. And I was like, okay, when he parked up, did he have the briefcase on him then? He's like, ah, might not have. So we concluded it was in his car. So this is where things got really, really tricky. Rather than canceling the operation, we decided we had to get into his car. And it got remote central locking. We had to get his car keys and I had somebody in this. If ever you, if ever you, this might be handy for anybody. Um, I've got a friend of mine to stand at his car with their phone on loudspeaker pointed at the, uh, window, the driver's window of the car. And I got my phone on loudspeaker and I pressed the unlock button down the phone and that unlocked his car from two miles away. Um, he was able then to get in. Retrieve the documents we wanted, and then we could lock back up using the same method and then put the keys back where they came from. So I'm being very deliberately vague with a lot of the information here. Um, but that shows you how we had to change everything at the last minute because it didn't quite go to plan. But if ever you're, um, you know, kind of, uh, with your other half or, you know, or you've left. You got, you, you've got your car keys. I've got to get something out of the phone that if ever you need to just place your phone on loudspeaker pointed up the, um, the driver's window, and, uh, you can be anywhere in the world and do exactly the same down that you put your phone on loudspeaker, it works on a sound wave, you say, and it'll, you can unlock the car then if, if, uh, if you need to, for somebody else.

Yoyo:

In fact, ceramic does the same, a very specific, tiny centimeter of ceramic. I had a friend, he had a garage where, he was a mechanic. I think he still is. and he had a centimeter piece of, ceramic and he pinged it at the glass. He said, ping that at the glass. And it shatters the glass without a sound.

Gavin:

Yeah, yeah. It's like,

Yoyo:

Phenomenal. So there are ways and means.

Gavin:

Yeah, we, yeah, you just literally can flick it. There's a couple of ways so you could do it. Um, we, we used to like get this ceramic, or we'd get what we'd, um, if we needed to, if we were desperate, you can always usually get spark plugs. So you can use the ceramic part of the spark plug, make a little chip, and you can either put it on an elastic band and flick it, or you can flick it with your thumb on it. There's a few different ways. Pretty much silent. And that's it. Out of the glass. Yeah. Yeah. He

Yoyo:

got it from a spark plug. He said, I'm going to show you a little trick. Cause he, you know, the car was for wrecking so we could have a little fun. And it was just, it was interesting to know, like these criminals, I mean, there are so many easier ways than getting this long, the trying to try to do this, you know, trying to break into a car. in fact, they do it the different way. Don't they? They're just looking for unlocked cars. It's a lot less. Yeah,

Gavin:

just walk down the street and pull each handle on each car until they find one that's open and, you know, so, but yeah, there's loads of different ways into cars and I'm not going to reveal them, uh, I've revealed a few of them in my books. No, this is

Yoyo:

not a how to in your books. Well, we'll provide a link to both of your books, but also, can you share a success story with us?

Gavin:

A success story. Um let me think of a good one when, uh, when it comes to espionage. Um, unfortunately, a lot of the times the success stories are usually more the ones where somebody gets caught and you've managed to stop information leaking. So even success stories generally have a kind of negative bracket, unfortunately. Um, but yes, we've, we caught somebody. There is a rule or a law when it comes to hiring somebody for espionage. Um, well, I don't know whether you want to call it a rule or a law, but a kind of an unwritten law of there are more people get caught changing the batteries of listening devices and bugs than what there are planting bugs. A what? Take us through

Yoyo:

this.

Gavin:

So, so what you've got is when people, if you hire somebody within a company or a government office or anything like that, and you hire them and you ask them to plant a bug. So let's just go with something really, really simple. You say, look, what I want you to do, I want you to stick this little device in the lampshade and they go, okay. And the first time they do it. They'll be so nervous, they'll be so cautious. They'll have a backstory in place as to why they're in the room. They'll have all this, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, the, and they'll, they'll put the bug and they'll kind of, and they'll get out there and they'll go, wow, I did it. I got away with it. But then the second time, because they've done it once, they confidence has grown a little bit, they feel a bit more secure, they feel a bit more relaxed, and each time they do it. the familiarization of not being caught ends up with them relaxing a little bit more and being guarded and less cautious. So therefore, um, usually maybe half a dozen times plus, uh, at that particular point, they've now stopped so much with all the backstory and all the other bits and pieces. They just walk into the room, take the little bug, change the battery over. Then they get caught and then they've got that look of a deer between the headlights on their face because they know that they've actually been caught. And that doesn't usually happen. Um, so that, that's, that's what happens. Um, and I know, uh, like I said, there was, um, a corporation, uh, that were, that I was working for, and we basically, we had a feeling they'd planted a keylogger somewhere. And for anybody who doesn't know what that is, it just allows Uh, everything that's typed on a keyboard, even if it's deleted names, passwords, everything to be transmitted to a third party. Oh boy. Yeah. There's loads of different ways these can work. They can, that can be disguised as something as simple as a lead. Uh, there can be like a dongle that slots into the back of a computer. It can be any number of things. So, um, I went to a. A particular corporation and what I did is I said, look, here's what we're going to do. I said, I want you to be able to watch everybody and what they do, but we're going to announce the fact that we're going to do a tech check, uh, because there seems to be an information leak. Uh, so all we did is, is we, we basically made the announcement and said, right, you know, we'll, we'll, we're coming down to everybody's. Computers one by one to check absolutely everything, you know, and, and of course, it's, um, the, the security officer who was with me said, yeah, you know, chief security officers, you know, Gavin stones, former British intelligence, he'll be coming around, he'll be checking all your technology, cause an absolute panic. More so for the person who had done it and what happened was they actually pulled their tower and they were taking, taking it out. And I said, there you go. over there. And they literally went in and caught them red handed with the keylogger. And that was it. Rather than actually physically going around to check everybody, we just waited for the one person to start faffing with their computer. And that was it.

Yoyo:

Yeah. I mean, that's got to be a huge sweaty moment. Really. That's the, I'm rumbled. What do you do in those? Well, I mean, what should they have done? Just played it cool.

Gavin:

Uh, yeah, that would have probably been the better answer is just turn and say, not me. Um, you know, yes, my computer, but I didn't put that there. Um, and that's, that's where they'd have, they'd have had a better chance. The problem is, is that the mistake they made, they actually use the device on their own computer. What they'd have been better doing is planting it on somebody else's computer in the first place. And that way, then if, if, if it had been found, they couldn't have just left it there. Yeah. So, um, but because it was, it was, they had the panic, they had the moment of fear. They also planted it on their own computer. They knew they were guilty and thought I've got to get rid of this. Uh, so that was it. We just kind of shook the tree and see what fell out.

Yoyo:

Technology is, the last area really I wanted to focus on. It's, it's having a huge impact, isn't it? Both in a corporate espionage, uh, on the playing field, because not only can you convincingly have devices on you like USBs, for example, that can be listening devices. There are other visual devices. We've all seen the undercover, you know, power armor programs. We've all seen how great the audio is and the visual, and it's getting better and better and better. When you think that a lot of security professionals listen to this podcast, how do you educate? a business to understand those devices exist and what's the mitigation?

Gavin:

Um, so a lot of the time, cause there's two ways that this is going to be a problem with people. Um, and the two ways are simply software and hardware. So educating people, the software, and it can be so difficult, you know, don't click on the link. Don't. Do this, don't do that. Don't do the other. Uh, if you don't know who it's from, you know, find out first, confirm all these things that people can be trained in, in what to look for on the software side of things, you know, like I said, whether it's a link or an email or even a phone call in some instances, um, the hardware side of things can be a little bit more difficult because things can be just, they can be so well disguised. Um, So there is right. I'm going to phrase this carefully. There is a particular airport in a country in the world where they offer USB, um, connections for people to charge their phone. Um, it's a very, um, suspicious kind of country. And what will happen is you'll plug your phone in, you'll plug your lead in, um, and It's not just charging your phone, but it's going through, it's sucking all the data off your phone. Um, and, and there are, this is happening repeatedly, and this is in the airport, this is government kind of, you know, backed. Um, they'd probably deny it obviously, but you know, so you can't assume that you're safe just because you, you are, you know, plugging your phone into what just appears to be a normal power socket. Um, In

Yoyo:

fairness, I think if I was going to that country, because I think we know which country that is, I wouldn't take my phone. I'd get another phone and I'd put a couple of numbers on it that I need all the critical numbers. And then that's it. I wouldn't even have it attached to social media.

Gavin:

I wouldn't,

Yoyo:

I wouldn't do it.

Gavin:

You know, and then the worst of it is you can get, you can get instances where other countries and other places can be compromised. You know, you might have somebody from a particular country. Government department of a particular country, they might turn around and say, right, let's go into a Starbucks or wherever, or this particular services or this particular company and just change this socket over. It looks like a normal one or just put something in the back that, you know, looks like a normal PowerPoint. They plug their phone in and job done, and they just hoover up masses of information. What I tend to use, I use something called a data blocker. And it's just a little extension that goes on the end of your USB, lead. Um, all it does is it blocks off all the other. Parts of the USB. So they're all now inert. And the one area let's continue is just for charging, just for power. And that's the only thing that can do a brilliant little device. And that way, if you go anywhere, make sure you plug it into the data blocker before you plug it into the wall. Um, and also just be aware of anybody. Anybody, no matter how friendly they are asking if they can charge or your, you know, their phone, or if they can use your phone for a moment to check their email, you know, just be so careful of anything like that. Um, and especially anybody turning around saying, Oh, I've just plugged my lead in. It doesn't seem to be charging my phone. Can I plug it into yours just to see if it's working? Oh, the thing is, It's, we, we laugh because, you know, we, we, we'd be so cautious. You and I would say absolutely no chance, but there are so many people out there that go, yeah, sure, crack on.

Yoyo:

Yeah. 100%. Cause they're still leaving their credit cards on the coffee table and Starbucks while they're sitting, having a chat. You know, and the handbags hanging off the back of the chair, wide open. I mean, I think there are a lot of people who have zero clue about security and personal security, and this is why security professionals have such a hard. time, literally trying to drum it into people. Like we all know about health and safety. You don't do this, don't do that. But we still have a high record of people using ladders in an unsafe way every single year.

Gavin:

Yeah. Yeah. And they're always around this. I mean, if you can get a unique. lead for charging, you know, like certain people have pink leads or yellow, pink and blue or whatever the case may be. You could do something like that. You could put a label on it. Uh, you know, like a little bit of sticky tape and an assigned, um, kind of piece of paper stuck in between the two pieces of sellotape that could go going around the lead. So, you know, if your leads being changed, anything at all, you know, that kind of helps you to identify, you know, your, your hardware. So it's like, you know, it's not being switched out for something. Cause it would be so easy to look at someone's office and go, yeah, he's got a white USB C to C lead 1. 5 meter. We just need to change one for one, exactly the same. You do that. And nobody would even be aware that that lead's been changed. And next thing you know, that's, I mean, the, the leads I've got now, I've got built in systems wifi and just transmit all the information from your device over the internet.

Yoyo:

Yeah, that's pretty scary. Also, keeping with corporate espionage, we know that CEOs can be, Popular targets simply because they're not really tech savvy. They are a little lazy on the tech savvy. I'm being very generalist here. I'm going to give an example of how CEOs quite often speak to their PAs and say, what's my password for this? I can't remember what it is. And can you do that for me? And here's my card. And, you know, they're incredibly trusting, because of their. I don't know their busyness or their lack of time. When you look at Simon Cowell, for example, I saw something, I was reading him in an interview and he basically doesn't have a mobile phone. He uses other people's phones and he, and so he could be particularly easy to get at if there was somebody in his circle could be trusted to, you know, flip information over. so how do you. Tell a security professional, because I think there'll be a lot of security professionals, a lot of security consultants listening. I mean, you would definitely be ideal to have as somebody on the books. You know, I know a great guy for my clients who can come in and talk to X, Y, and Z. How would you tell a CEO who would be described in the way that I have? Actually, he needs to rethink what he's doing because he's actually going to be quite vulnerable.

Gavin:

I'd probably tailor the conversation to each CEO because, yes, generally speaking, it's all about time and efficiency for a lot of CEOs. They want to get in, get something done and get on with the next thing. So they don't want to be messing around going exclamation mark, at sign. 32, capital K, you know, and blah, blah, blah. They're just, they don't want that. And that's why a lot of, um, so here's, here's a lovely little secret for you from the 1960s to the 1970s, I think it was around, around 77 or 79, something like that, the nuclear launch codes held by the president of the United States were double zero, double zero, double zero, double zero.

Yoyo:

No.

Gavin:

Yeah.

Yoyo:

Get out of town. Honestly, yeah. That's ridiculous.

Gavin:

Four sets of double zero, uh, that was the nuclear launch codes. And, and the reason, and the worst of it is they're not too dissimilar in, in, in how they operate now with the simplicity because of the fact that it has to be something that is kind of enough that most people won't think of it. But at the same time, simply enough for even a president to remember. Um, they don't want any form of panic confusion. They don't want anything that is going to get a president behind the desk, who's about to press the red button to go, Oh, what was it? Five, three, eight, no, no, no. It was seven, four, three, two, eight. I don't know. You know, they need something that they can just go plonk, plonk, plonk, plonk, plonk, plonk, plonk, plonk, enter, um, even in a state of panic. Uh, and that's why they need to keep it reasonably simple. And I would probably do something similar with a CEO, but not, uh, obviously not, you know, uh, four sets of, uh, two zeros, um, but I would give him something that's reasonably easy to memorize that other people probably wouldn't work out and do something in a way that I could say, all you've got to do is put this plus this, plus that, plus that, you know, and

Yoyo:

Exactly. You use the same principle I do. I have my own cipher. And so it's a certain thing, or it's a certain blah, and a certain blah, and I have them in a formula. In fact, you know, I remember my friend said to me, oh, you know, what's your favorite, you know, what's your, think of a sweetie in a sweetie shot. You know, who, who's gonna, what CEO is gonna get exposed because his password is relating to a sweet from a sweetie shot. You know, just dipshit like that, let's keep away from. pets, animals, names and things like that. But yeah, absolutely. what's heading up the future Gavin, to finish up really, what do people need to be looking out for now? What are you seeing as emerging threats?

Gavin:

Um, emerging threats at the moment is so as much as it's good, it's also bad is the kind of artificial intelligence and the way it's been used for misinformation and disinformation. Um, and this is kind of something that, um, uh, the likes of certain social media sites are trying their best to regulate it, but it's not always that easy. And of course, when you look at the, the, the, the way things are done, if people can't post things directly, they'll just send it via private messenger or whatever else to other people in a different way. So you have to be really careful with how AI is being used. Um, I mean, it, it. Like I say, it is amazing because I can literally go into AI and I can say, make this person say that or whatever. And next thing you know, I've got a video of them and they're saying anything I want them to. If I say, right, I want Putin to turn around and say, I like jelly babies. Next thing you know, I've got a video of Putin saying, you know, I like jelly babies. So scary stuff.

Yoyo:

Yeah, it is. And we've seen it down with Biden, haven't we? We've seen that during the election. We knew at the top of this year, Gavin, that there were going to be the highest amount of elections across the world this year. I can't remember the number, but it was an extraordinary amount. We've, touch wood, we've got to the beginning of December and there haven't been as many. There hasn't been as much disruption as there could potentially have been.

Gavin:

What's

Yoyo:

2026 got, what's 2026, what's 2025 got ahead for us? Slow

Gavin:

down a bit, give me a chance. Um, uh, I, I think, I think it'll probably start to settle a little bit, um, politically. after we've got the initial kind of changeovers done, um, uh, and after it settles, that's when there's probably going to be some big changes. And it's either going to go one way or the other. And that sounds like I'm being like, like I'm hedging my bets a little bit here. Um, but a lot of it's gonna kind of revolve around delivery. Um, it's either going to be a case of. You know, this is the new thing and you will accept it. And then people are going to write and say, no, that's not what we want, or it's going to be delivered correctly in a kind of, Hey guys, this is a better way of doing things. What do you think? And people go, yes, we like it. Yeah. It'll, it'll be eased in. So, but I think there's going to be a few changes.

Yoyo:

I think, you know, when we look at Trump in America, you know, there's very intelligent ways of having really good conversations about what's happening there. But my biggest threat is when you're somehow say on a sailing in the ocean and you're focusing on your sail and getting it in a good state of, repair to. continue your journey, sometimes you're not looking at the horizon and you're not looking at what's happening to your left and right. And I think that's my biggest worry for 2025 is that if we look at America in particular, it's become so focused on itself that I think it could be missing a broader threat vector. You're gonna have more people who will turn more people who will be just discombobulated about their lives, more people that just don't have coping mechanisms. And I just worry about the social resilience and the community resilience of nations that have had this worn down a little bit now for quite a long time.

Gavin:

Yeah, there has been a lot of divisive kind of events and it really is kind of getting to the point where. You do have everybody's been kind of forced into camps, on campus or on camp land. Yeah, and this is where this is a strategy that's actually been used by intelligence agencies for years and years to kind of, you know, divide and conquer. So, you know, this is something like you say about social resilience. We are really, really struggling. I actually watched a, um, a clip. Somebody put on social media earlier this morning, he's ex military. Um, and it was a guy just going around asking young males, uh, probably 18 to 22, give or take, would you fight for this country if you were called up to go to war? And a lot of them would say, Oh no, I've got allergies. No, I can't. No, I tell them I'm not, I don't want to do it. No, I'd get beaten up and no. And, and the, the, the general theme by the majority of them was no, I don't, I don't want to couldn't, couldn't do it if I wanted to. Um, and, and it kind of made you panic a little bit when you think, Oh,

Yoyo:

yeah. And we don't even kind of manufacture tanks in this country anymore. We don't even manufacture planes in this country anymore. And when you look at the old movies and you look at how like the women went to the manufacturing sites, manufacturers of, crockery and plates have turned into manufacturing guns and weapons. And you think we have the capacity to be able to do that. The preparedness just was there because of our ability to make. Good stuff. Now we don't make stuff. So I'm thinking I started to click. I thought, Oh God, no wonder we're part of NATO because we can't make our own tanks.

Gavin:

We don't, we don't manufacture much as an island anymore at all, unfortunately, which is a shame.

Yoyo:

So in a sense we could be more vulnerable now than we've ever been. And I worry about social resilience. I think it's going to be a big focus going forward now.

Gavin:

Yeah, social resilience is a massive thing that, um, I think, I think it's probably been dealt with incorrectly for the majority of the time for like, especially like the Generation Z, you know, Gen Z as they're called and that kind of thing because of the fact that I'm true. I've got to choose my words carefully. I don't want to upset anybody, but, um, they're a very fragile generation. And, uh, and I, and I think it's something that, um, and I don't speak for all of them, obviously. Um, but it's something that social resilience amongst that generation is going to be something that's, uh, to deal with.

Yoyo:

I heard someone, this is classic example. I heard someone complaining the other day cause they've got three jobs. And I'm like, okay. Well, at your age, I had three jobs, because that's what I did. I needed the extra money, and for me to do this, or for me to take that holiday, which I very rarely did, I took extra jobs. Like, what's the big deal here? Why have we suddenly become so entitled that we should have everything we need from one job? Yeah, it's never been like that. I think if you want more money, go and get another job. There's plenty of jobs out there. Well,

Gavin:

I'll give you an example of going back a few years as well, but a young girl started at the office where my wife works and she had a breakdown because she found out that she doesn't get six weeks off in the summer. And it was her first job. And course she, she said, what we don't get, and that was it. It was, it caused her an absolute kind of, she couldn't cope. And that was, that's the problem now is a lot of people aren't prepared. They get out into the real world. And where all of a sudden they're not, you know, it's not candy coated. Um, and it's a big problem for them.

Yoyo:

I think, I think if anything, you know, even, even the Darwinists would say survival of the fittest, even if it is mental fitness. I don't mean that to be in any way disparaging. I'm talking about one's ability to be able to think, okay, I know that I have quite a high level of personal resilience because I learned very, very long time ago, I think I was 14 when I learned, actually, I can't take drugs because I've got no one to pick me up and hold my hand if I fuck up. can't. dilapidate into this bad stage of repair because I'm the one who has to pick myself up. And I think that's the resilience that we have as younger people is because we've learned of that self resiliency comes from, making sure it's causes and consequences. Again, I've had friends, who've had amazing upbringings with their parents and are very emotionally dependent. Gavin, thank you so much for joining us on the security circle podcast again.

Gavin:

Thank you for having me. It's our pleasure.