The Security Circle

EP 128 "The Silent Language of Danger: Decoding Nonverbal Threats" with Gary Simpson Former Royal Marine Commando and Non-Verbal Communications Expert

• Yoyo Hamblen • Season 1 • Episode 128

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  • 🕵️‍♂️ From war zones to waiting rooms — how behavioural cues, atmospheric shifts, and body language reveal hidden threats and emotions.
  • 🔍 What do pickpockets, Taliban operatives, and salespeople have in common? The answer lies in "rehearsal behaviour" — and Gary teaches you how to spot it.
  • 💬 Mirroring, microexpressions, and emotional leakage — decode the invisible signals people are constantly giving away.
  • ⚠️ How laughter in a firefight helped a Marine survive: Discover the psychological tactics that protect soldiers—and how they apply to daily stress.
  • 🎭 The psychology of accents, crowd control, and proxemics — learn why your feet reveal more than your words and how lifts, queues, and airports are behavioural goldmines.

BIO

Gary Simpson is a former Royal Marines Commando and seasoned security professional who specialises in applying Nonverbal Communication (NVC), Behaviour, and body language analysis within high-risk security environments. As co-founder of Special Projects Group, Gary has developed cutting-edge methodologies to sharpen situational awareness across military, law enforcement, and protective services. His training equips professionals with the tools to detect threats early, recognise distress signals, overcome language barriers, and identify concealed weapons - turning intuition into a measurable skillset.


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https://www.linkedin.com/in/nvc-guy/



Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

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yoyo:

Hi, this is Yolanda. Welcome. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. If PO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers and we are dedicated to providing meaningful education information. Certification and great guests for all levels of security personnel and make a positive difference where we can to our members mental health and wellbeing. Our listeners are global. They are the decision makers of tomorrow and today, and I want to thank you personally wherever you are for being a part of the Security Circle journey. We love having you with us. And if you'd love the podcast, we are on all podcast platforms. Don't forget to subscribe when you see the LinkedIn post or even better, just like comment and share when you see it. And on your podcast platform, give us five stars hanging around your inbox. Thank you for your company today. Well, I'm gonna be welcoming a rather special guest to the Security Circle podcast. His name is Gary Simpson. How to describe him? He's a former Royal Marine a nonverbal communication and behavioral specialist across security sectors and a co-founder at SBG. We're gonna find out all about Gary. Gary, how you doing? Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. Ah,

Gary:

thank you very much, Yolanda. Uh, you're making me blush again with that introduction, uh, but no, very happy to, yeah, very happy to be here. Been following your work. Uh, you've had some great guests on, um, so no pressure. So yeah,

yoyo:

only the best here, Gary, but you know that already, even from your journey in the Marines, I'm sure get told you only the best, succeeds in that role, right?

Gary:

Yeah, yeah. I guess that's right. I guess that's right. Yeah.

yoyo:

So you're quite used to it being amongst the best.

Gary:

Yeah. Do, do you know what, um, it's a great, it's a great kind of a world, uh, coming out of, uh, the Royal Marines. Um, and then working with like, like-minded people in security, maritime, uh, investigations, all that type of stuff. So, um, so yeah, it's just, just nice who you align yourself with really the end of the day, isn't it?

yoyo:

It is. I find the podcast is a great echo Chamber of Greatness, which I am in the center of, and I think, wow, that's just phenomenal. I'm around all of these great people, all these great thoughts and ideas and ideations, you name it. So keeps me in a very good place, you know, professionally, mentally. But you are in a pretty good place on the 5th of June, aren't you? You are appearing for Ifpo, for Ifpo Live 25 at the Coventry Arena. Thank you for agreeing to do that.

Gary:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's my, uh, it's my pleasure. It's, uh, you know, I first got into this line of work. Um, because the skills that we were taught, the skills that we developed, um, in some of the most hostile environments in the world, uh, all around threat detection, picking up, um, like atmospheric shifts, recognizing when things are, uh, are about to turn south, uh, or turn sour, you know, that's inspired me to, uh, to teach and to educate and pass on that knowledge to anyone and everyone who will be able to benefit from it. So, um, platforms like this, platforms like, uh, uh, like on the 5th of June and Coventry, all of that is part of the package really. Um, so I'm really looking forward to it. And yeah, just thanks for the opportunity to, to get to speak and get to, uh, share my knowledge with other people. Um,'cause at the end of the day, knowing is half the half the battle, isn't it?

yoyo:

It is. So I did anybody who's gonna be in the commentary arena area, around the 5th of June to definitely pop in. I think you've got an early slot, haven't you? It's, it's quite a crowd draw. Your, I was gonna say your sketch, uh, your, your key. I can do a

Gary:

sketch as well. You know, I can hold a tune every now and again. It's

yoyo:

not a performance. You don't get your jazz hands out or do you?

Gary:

Hey, you haven't seen it yet.

yoyo:

You talk about nvs a, is that how you say it? Nvs a

Gary:

Yeah, yeah, that's how you say it. So, uh, it stands for nonverbal situational awareness training. And, uh, it is all about enhancing your ability to spot threats, uh, detect atmospheric shifts, or just be able to recognize when something's about to go really south or really sour, uh, using nonverbal communication and behavioral detection. Yeah, it's all about enhancing that existing intuition that we all have. And it stems from the use of things like behavioral detection, body language analysis, and then the wider nonverbal communication analysis as well. A lot of people, whenever we hear NVC, they instantly think that it's just to do with body language. They say, oh, well you're a body language expert. It is, but it isn't. So nonverbal communication includes body language. It is not body language. Body language is a part of nonverbal communication. It's all about that. Using that channel that is outside of the verbal, channel, which is me and you talking to one another now, and although me and you talking to one another now is using a lot of verbal, there's actually a lot of non-verbal. Parts of that. There's the paralinguistics, there's the, the tone, the pauses, the speed, the rhythm, the pitch and everything like that really. Um, but yeah, I'm really looking forward to it.

yoyo:

You know, I was sending you lots of nonverbal signals there. Did you get them?

Gary:

I did, I did. I did. Yeah.

yoyo:

You kept very straight on that. That's good test for your appearance at the Coventry arena. You never know what kind of nonverbal signals you're gonna get there.

Gary:

Uh, exactly. Do you know what it's, uh, like o obviously all, all my work is, uh, is around NBC and behavior and, uh, one of the byproducts of that is I now live with, my wife who is an expert at reading facial expressions and micro gestures and everything like that. So, she'll always pick up on that. Was that contempt that you just did there or was that a snarl that you just did there? To me, I'm like, okay, okay, we need to change things around.

yoyo:

Yeah. And do the MVCs match with the I'm fine.

Gary:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's a great one. That's the biggest lie that you'll ever see. I'm

yoyo:

fine. What I'm fine really means is don't ask me.

Gary:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Don't ask me any questions.

yoyo:

Yeah. Why are you asking me now? You should have asked me last night when it was really relevant to ask me if I was fine.

Gary:

Uh, even my kids as well., They're little experts at, uh, at detected lies and, uh but yeah, everything is, it's great.

yoyo:

So give us an example then, especially maybe take us back to that first tour of Afghanistan when you were in your early twenties. Take us back to, you know, a situation where, NV sat started to become very important to, Your daily operations.

Gary:

Yeah, yeah. Um, so my first tour, just like loads of other Marines and, uh, soldiers out there, uh, you, you're very young and, um, your first tour, even as highly trained as you are and all the mission rehearsal exercises that you go on, and all stress testing and everything like that, uh, it prepares you for a lot of things. But that first time that you step up into, uh, into a theater of operations, you know, it's very, I don't know. It, it, it, it is very heightened. Um, so on our first, uh, on our first tour, we were deemed to be very close to human intelligence assets. Uh, we were always at the forefront of the patrols. Uh, it was our job essentially, just to make sure that, um, uh, that roots were clear that, uh, there was no ambushes, that there was no, uh, hostile intent there. So we got selected to go through some very basic behavioral detection, uh, human intelligence, uh, training. And it was done on, um, on onsite in bastion. Um, by a member of the DHU. Um, and, uh, it was just very, very basics on intelligence gathering questions. Uh, little bits about body language, little bits about nonverbal communication, uh, most of which, by the way, is very outdated now. Uh, but that kind of bit me a little bit and I was like, oh, well maybe there's some applications here. And, uh, when we were on a, our first operation after that, uh, we got held up. So we had to do a snap VCP or a vehicle checkpoint. And, uh, we were in the middle of, uh, uh, like a well traveled route. Um, the threat levels were pretty high. Um, so we set something up. I was the chatter because I'm quite good at talking. Uh, people will say that I'm copy, but, uh, that's okay. Um, and uh, initially we just got cars coming through. I positioned everyone exactly how you should do, uh, with VCP and uh, we started getting traffic and what I noticed instantly was all of these people were coming up to us, um, and it was just stonewalling essentially. We didn't have any real interactions. You're trying to build rapport with them. It just wasn't happening. Um, and I think the first couple of, uh, people who came through ended up taking anywhere from 20 minutes to like 40 minutes just to try and get somebody going through. And so I've decided, right, why don't we try and apply some of this? NVC, some of this body language, some of this behavioral stuff that we've been taught. So I completely changed the way that the VCP was ran. Um, I altered my body language. Uh, instead of having the sunglasses on and aag and weapons of old and everything like that, um, completely stripped down to, uh, to lighter gear. I had protection. So it was okay, um, very confident. Um, and I started to empathize. So you use something where you empath, you use empathy themes and you try and connect with the people who are coming through, uh, through to you. So, um, I started empathizing and started saying, right, okay, so I'm, I'm driving around now and I suddenly see a VCP. What, what am I gonna be thinking? Well, I'm gonna be a, a little bit against what's going on here. Uh, I'm probably gonna have a backup. So how do I diffuse that? Well, do you know what? I'm a bloke. Most of these people are blokes. Um. I like cars. They probably like cars as well. So instantly, as soon as we came in, uh, instead of like, stop, blah, blah, blah, everything like that, quite aggressive, stopped, got'em to wind the window down and was like, I really love your car. Like, where did you get this car from? And instantly they, they changed around. I was like, okay. So we'll starting to do that instead of, um, speaking to them from a higher ground, I would kneel down and get on their eye level. So I'm meeting them equally. And that instantly changed it. I was like, okay, we can maybe start to take this a little bit further. So, um, I, we used to interpreters as I don't speak, uh, the language. So we had a, an interpreter there and many people listen to this will understand that you get a, a third wheel effect where you are the third wheel because the tip, the interpreter and the target who you're chatting to is, uh, they, they're just having their own conversation. So I changed it around a little bit. And if you imagine once you've got out the car, you are looking at me, I, I placed the interpreter just behind, uh, out of eyes, uh, out of the reach of the eye of the person who I was chatting to and explained to the interpreter to make sure that whenever the person is speaking, he looks at me, makes sure that you are mirroring my body language, that you are mirroring my vocal tones, my pitch, and everything like that. And, um, he took about 30 seconds of this person chatting to me. And every now and again, he'd turn his head to look at the interpreter. The interpreter knew his, uh, his duty got to face me. After about 30 seconds of beding in it completely changed the dynamic and it was as if the interpreter wasn't there. And as if I was speaking a language and all of a sudden this stonewalling that we would get, we would be getting. It just didn't seem to happen anymore, and it was right. We've got, uh, a weapons cache over here. We've noticed a Taliban movement over here. Um, we really like you guys here, but unfortunately we're under pressure from X, Y, and Z. And it just ended up turning into a little gold mine of, um, of intelligence gathering. And that was just from maybe a bedding period of 30 seconds or more. Uh, and that instantly changed my view, um, of how we can operate in this type of terrain. Um, it also sped up that, uh, experience gap between me who was a, a young spro, like 20 something, like not knowing his bottom from his elbow. Um, but then I. All of a sudden having all that experience.'cause now I'm able to become self aware of pattern recognition, um, of, uh, what to do when this happens, of detecting atmospheric shifts. Uh, and from there it was just a, a bit of a, a, what, what are they call a labor of love, really. Um, I just recognized the huge benefits of applying these techniques in hostile environments from the soldier, uh, upwards. Um, and obviously it helps you in, uh, in your, your, your personal life as well. Uh, but that wasn't even threat detection. That was just building rapport. Um, and that instantly changed it, and it was really good. Yeah,

yoyo:

really clever. And I'm sure as people are listening just like me, they're thinking, Hmm, you know, how can I think differently about difficult situations? Not necessarily, war zone conversations, but how can I think differently about, differently about how I go about do things? You talked about atmospheric shift. I mean,, I go straight to the Western movie, the stranger walking into the saloon and, and everyone in the saloon stops talking and looks around. That's a good example of a very basic acts feric shift. But what can you talk to about your experience being in these countries where you set that atmospheric shift? How important is it that you spot it?

Gary:

It's very important, really. The thing with atmospherics is well let's take that situation there.'cause we've all been in bars, haven't we? Um, and maybe a bunch of laugh or a bunch of glasses.

yoyo:

Quite a lot actually, if I can speak for myself.

Gary:

Yeah, well, yeah. Maybe one or two for me as well. Yeah. But yeah, where, where something, a person's walked into that, uh, club and you think something's off, but you can't really pinpoint where that is. Well, you are not a psychic. Um, essentially what you are doing there is on a subconscious level, you are picking up on nonverbal cues that that person is sending out. So if you imagine, um, we've been evolving for, you know, millions and millions and billions of years really. But we've only really had a grasp of complex language anywhere from 50 to a hundred thousand years. Um, so prior to that, everything that we were doing was on a nonverbal basis. So your body is hardwired to send and receive signals, through this nonverbal channel. You are, again, you're not psychic, you are picking up on these nonverbal cues that that person is sending out. Now we have biological drivers, we have lots of biological drivers, but the three that we focus on and that I'm gonna be talking about this talk are your self-preservation, social engagement, and sexual reproduction. So you need these three things in order to, well, these three things have essentially been present in our ancestors' lives.'cause they keep us alive long enough to reproduce. So we've got self-preservation as in, you know, you wanna keep yourself safe, you wanna avoid threats. Um, uh, social engagement. It's been, uh, it's evolutionary beneficial for us to be able to, uh, band together and we're encouraged to do that. Uh, share resources wide, the team pool, everything that, and a reproduction, you know, keeping it aligned going. Everything that you do is kind of framed through these three biological drivers. So if you are doing anything that goes against those biological drivers, it will be leaked out and it's called emotional leakage. So when somebody's coming in and got that, uh, you get that horrible feeling, that's'cause you are picking up on some of that emotional leakage that's coming out.

yoyo:

But as a marine and in these hostile environments, potentially very hostile environments. Those biological drivers are, you are trained to almost work against them, aren't you? You are trained to not let the fear you should be feeling, take over what you are doing. How does a marine and think about your own situation, how do you project all of the right, nonverbal communication and communication when ultimately everything in your body should be saying, get outta here. This isn't safe. This is, you know, that's how normal people would feel.

Gary:

Yeah, yeah. With an emphasis on that normal, isn't it? Um, yeah. It, it's self-awareness really. So, uh, when you're going into those environments, number one, you know. It, you are not just random living drop there. You've been trained, you know, you've been trained to, uh, to go into these different types of places and these different types of environments, you're still gonna be leaking. Some of it aren't you, but, um, uh, but no, uh, you're very highly trained. Um, so you are very confident and then that gets, uh, released as well, uh, through that. So you're no longer thinking, right? You are recognizing that there's threats there, you're recognizing all this type of stuff. But, uh, but ultimately you've got that confidence that's been instilled, that situational awareness to say that you can cope with some of these, uh, as well. But where it kind of comes, uh, from the other side is when you are trying to spot threats. So, um, you've got, uh, the Taliban, which are, you know, well-trained soldiers or insurgents, which have received training, and then you've got the others that are probably under duress. When they're coming out. So, um, when we talk about threat, we talk about threat on three different levels. Talk about hostile intent, we talk about duress, and then we talk about deception. Uh, hostile intent is fairly self-explanatory. These are people who are, uh, who've got the premeditated, uh, disposition to cause harm. Uh, we've got duress, which is, uh, probably less, less easy to spot, and that is people are being coerced into doing something. Uh, drug smugglers, uh, people are being forced to carry weapons or forced to undergo attacks. And then you've got deceit, which is all about social engineering people trying to pull the wall over your eyes. So in this respect, one of the tactics that, uh, the insurgency, uh, or that the enemy was using against us would be, um, that would pick vulnerable people. And maybe ask'em to carry an IED, uh, or a bomb. Uh, quite a lot of children, uh, were, uh, were forced or coerced into, uh, loading wheelbarrows full of explosives and uh, and, and running up to us. So by being able to spot that emotional leakage coming off, uh, off, these people would immediately, uh, get your spider sensor going and be able to detect that atmospheric shift.

yoyo:

And usually we're right, aren't we? Because even in the office or the workplace or the social club or wherever you hang out, you can spot that atmospheric shift with someone. Quite invariably, if they're a little bit narked with you, they won't look at you. They might talk to you. They might go, yeah, everything's alright, Bob. Yeah, everything's fine. But really they're not looking at you. Their body's facing away from you. They're just like, really? Don't they feel, feel quite uncomfortable? It's quite interesting, isn't it, to see sometimes, uh. How people behave and they don't realize they're giving away so much.

Gary:

One of my, uh, favorite things to do is, uh, is people watch, you know, I'll sit down, say, whenever, when I was, uh, uh, developing this course or when I was developing the training, I would just take a newspaper and sit in a coffee shop and then just observe like how people move, how people interact, with one another. So an interesting thing about body language is like people can coach, people can, uh, adapt and improvise and try and disguise it as much as they can, but people always forget about like the extremities, which is your feet, where your feet are, uh, pointing the axis of your body or where you're vectoring towards as well. We train people to look for incongruence, uh, with the body language. So it's Yes, what you're saying versus what you actually. What you're actually giving out as well. Um, and it's always good. Yeah. You'll always get people who are saying, Hey, I'm fine, or I'm really interested in what you are doing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Ticking from like a sales professional or a sales background as well. But then you'll notice that their feet are pointing towards the exit, like, and their body is a, a slightly angle towards saying like, well, okay, so you are not actually interested in, you're just looking for a get out. Like, and then that awareness there makes you adapt your approach to it as well. So you can say, okay, well I need to up my game on this part, or I need to address this concern, or I need to do something around that. Yeah.

yoyo:

I can see why you chose a coffee shop, because you are seeing people in natural state, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, and, and I like watching people in cues. I like to watch their tolerance and see their non-verbal communication change as time goes by. And watch those signs. Some of those signs are, they're very aware of, some of them they're not very aware of. Uh, and some of them can be very rude indicators as well of this kind of descent. I had the pleasure of, again, visiting Miami Airport. I dunno if you've ever been to Miami Airport, but the security customs controlled TSA, it is no fun there. I'll tell you. It's a very, very, very long queue, quite often queuing for an hour, and it's now far more an unpleasant experience than it ever used to be. I'll tell you a funny story. As we were leaving and we were going through the first initial passport checks. Um, leaving Miami, I think we just did a bag check and you go through the initial security control. I said to the TSA agent, I said, oh, did you watch that TSA movie? Was it good like this? And he's like, rolled his eyes, you know, it's not good. He went, is it not real, very realistic. I went, no, it's not really very realistic. They could have picked anybody. And it was just a way to sort of, you know, build rapport and chat.'cause you get to see how people respond to you when you fling them. A question like that, you know, do they stay in state or do they become, their normal selves? But also the fascinating thing, having landed in Miami, come off the plane, and then trying to enter the country. That key was, it was suffocating. The number of people there. The queue never ended. So for example, as you joined it, there were, several hundred yards of Zigzaggy queues, but right in front of you was the end. So you knew you had to go all the way down to the other end of the room to then come all the way back to the point where you were at basically to be able to see a TSA agent and enter the country. It was disparaging. And I just, I took a great amount of comfort just watching everybody. Some people were really quiet, gave away nothing, literally just stood, they didn't even have anything to distract them. Like no headphones, no nothing. Some people needed that audio kind of communication, music or whatever. And there was the obvious normal kind of behaviors, but that's a heck of a cue to watch to see human behaviors.

Gary:

It's good because you got, what you don't have there is context in some of the. Some of the stuff that you see. So you've got a whole mixture of people, you've got lots of cultural differences. You've got people who've maybe been on a red eye, I know what red eye is now on, on a red eye, or people who've just been, I don't know, people who are going to, uh, see loved ones, people who are going to see like funerals, weddings, parties, all that type of stuff. And all that stuff is bubbling through their heads as they go through there, which is, yeah, which is good. But yeah, the TSA use, elements of, uh, like behavioral analysis as well as, uh, a program that's I think was developed, um, in with Paul Eckman, who's, uh, who's big in this field. He does a lot of, facial expressions, microexpressions, uh, lots of things like that as well. Um. Interesting as well. So you mentioned about the, the zigzagging of, uh, of the, uh, of the cues That's, you know, that's got elements of behavior and crowd control in it as well. So, um, have you ever heard of something called Proximic at all?

yoyo:

No. Tell us about that, Gary. Yeah,

Gary:

yeah, yeah, yeah. So proxemics is a, uh, is how we use space, uh, around us. Mm-hmm. And there's loads of different interpretations there.

yoyo:

Right. Before you go on, can I tell you how I like to use that space? Because Yeah. Could be, I don't like it when I'm rear-ended too quickly. Do you know what I'm saying?

Gary:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I

yoyo:

like my space behind me in a zigzaggy, uh, close proximity. And so sometimes I won't move when the person in front of me shuffles forward.'cause I'm like, where you gonna go? Do know what I mean? And that is fun. It's funny'cause sometimes it frustrates the person behind you. They're like, well, you haven't moved. And so they then start to move a little bit. And it's really funny. Like it's two foot.

Gary:

Yeah. Do you know? Yeah. You get that power cell effect really, don't you?

yoyo:

Yeah. So I don't do it deliberately and I don't do it mischievously, but I like to have the space.

Gary:

Yeah. Yeah. And

yoyo:

I don't want anyone touching me

Gary:

No. Or my

yoyo:

bag or bumping into me. And I, and when there's little children around, I'm like, Ugh, keep them away from me.

Gary:

You, you would hate to come around this house. Sometimes I'm the same, but I have three of them, so I can't really get away with it.

yoyo:

What does that tell you about the prox in terms of, you know, how I behave in a queue then? Uh,

Gary:

do you know, very, very British,

yoyo:

I think.

Gary:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very British. So we've got, uh, numerous zones, uh, essentially, so we've got our intimate zone, which is, it alters between culture, it alters between, um, the, where, how you're brought up, your background, everything like that really. But you've got your intimate zone, which is usually like less than a foot around you. Uh, you've got your personal, uh, space, your social space, and your public and stranger space as well. Um, so quite like by people. We're very protective of our zones, particularly our intimate zone. So what you were talking about there, you don't like people touching you, you don't like people invading that space. Um, this is what we use in, uh, tactical questioning and interrogation, investigative interviews by the way, as well, trying to break down that, um, uh, that barrier of that intimate sound. So when people. Get too close to us. It kind of puts us into this like state where you, you, you are on edge all of the time in, um, incidentally, this is one of the, uh, theories behind why people get road rage as well, really. So, yeah. Yeah. So, uh, whenever you are, when some people, when they get into like a car, that car becomes their intimate zone and an extension of their proximity mix so people get too close to cars or in, or, or pulling out in front of you and stuff like that. That puts you into that, that kind of heightened state of alert and then trust an effect. Yeah. Yeah. So in order to kind of like combat, when you've got loads of people from different cultures all in the same place, all bumping into one another, you create like artificial zones, right? So that's what this whole cattle grid is, uh, approach is where people will get into this, uh, into the line. And I've got like barriers either side, they'll adopt that as your intimate zone. Then there's very, uh, low risk of people bumping into them, um, and stuff like that. So it, it's an element of like crowd control. You'll see it on like benches, you know, park benches where you've got arm armrests now. Mm. To encourage more people to come in. That's that again, is, is part of that, um, that that behavioral nudge almost.

yoyo:

But Gary, it all turns to shit when you all have to get in a lift with two suitcases each, do you know what I mean?

Gary:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

yoyo:

You accept then a different type of proximity. You, you accept. You have to squeeze into a lift and Oh God, everyone's saying, please, let's lift not, you know, break down because we only have standing room, et cetera, et cetera. But it's interesting, isn't it, that we can accept different proximities in different situations, even at the same place.

Gary:

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, when, you know, as society's kind of like, uh, grown and we've got, cities have got bigger and, uh, living spaces got a lot more confined, we, uh, we adopt a different, like, level of social norm or social cohesion. So there are certain rules that are, uh, uh, that are unwritten, but, or obeyed with everyone. So, uh, getting into lifts, for example, if I was to get into a lift, I guarantee what I would do is just sit there, shut up, look at my phone and not bother anyone. And we'd all be in this little place and we'll all be understanding not to do it. So if somebody got into that lift and suddenly start talking to other people and trying to break those rules, that would cause a little bit distress for other people.

Quick heads up for all the security industry. There's a brand new book coming out that you don't want to miss. It's called The Professional Protection Officer, practical Applications to Succeed in the Security Industry. It's the 10th edition and it's led by Sandy Davis from Ifpo. This 10th edition is packed with real world guidance, career tips and insights from over 40 experts. We're talking everything from patrol basics. To emergency response investigations, leadership, you name it. It's just what Ifpo love to deliver. And here's the best part. On May the 15th is totally free to download. Plus you'll get a free ifpo membership just for grabbing your copy. Keep an eye out for it. We'll keep reminding you and I'll drop a reminder when it goes live.

yoyo:

See, I think you're quite antisocial in a lift.'cause ultimately a lift is probably the one place is a one touch point. People are likely to speak to each other because they'll say, oh, could you plus three for me? Oh, you going to the same floor as me? Okay, great. Oh, you're catching a flight. Yeah. Where you going? You know, and that's where the conversations start if you're normal, Gary. Yeah. But also what you did say about there being unwritten rules very much applies to the London Underground. Yeah. Yeah. Don't talk to each other there. You just don't even look at each other. And when you look at each other, it's like, oops. Oh God. Sorry I've made eye contact. No, sorry. I'll look down. You know, and it,

Gary:

Being a Northerner going to London, it's a completely different experience for me.

yoyo:

You are not a Northerner, are you Gary?

Gary:

Oh, I am Yorkshire born and brs. I

yoyo:

had noticed from that accent. Man, I think you need to work on that. I,

Gary:

I do though. But I usually have a whippet and a flat cap near me.

yoyo:

But look, let's move on to principles of threat detection and then hostile intent. Yeah. This is something that you like to talk about, isn't it?

Gary:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, there's like, we, we try and employ this level of threat dissection. Um. As part of a layered approach, you know, uh, a lot of the criticisms that you tend to get around the people who you say body language analysis and all this type of stuff and behavioral analysis is they fail to apply it in a layered approach. It's one of the tools that you can use. So, for example, for threat detection using NBC, we have seven principles. So we've got, uh, anything from facial expressions, uh, where we talk about the loss of i impulse control face, the premeditated assault face, uh, flashes of, uh, of raw emotion through microexpressions. Uh, we've got biometrics, so these like scars. Uh, anything from scars, tattoos, um, hot flushes, pupil dilation, um, kinesics, which is all about your body language, uh, your verbal, uh, patterns as well. So one of the interesting things that we talk about verbal is the use of book classes, exclusive language, you know, and this, uh, is a really good tool for. Building precepts for social engineers and, um, also intelligence covering. So, uh, I'm a R Marine or a former Rome Marine. I use specific cultural language, um, that, uh, that will highlight me to any other R Marine out there. So if you just asked me for a, uh, uh, a tea or a coffee, I'll say, yes, I would like a, a hot, wet, please. Uh, and if you, uh, uh, if you ask me, uh, I know how a, a trip to the cinema was last night, I'll say it was hoofing, um, rather than anything else, which, which immediately gives me away as, uh, as somebody bought party. I,

yoyo:

I hear horses When you say hoofing. Do, I mean, I'm thinking what, what's horses gotta do with it? Like horses trundling through a theater. That's what I'm, that's what I'm hearing. But I'm a southern Nancy Bird, so I wouldn't expect that. I'm definitely a, I come from Cornwall, so there is a more southern point. And like you, I adopt my accent to make sure I don't sound too much like country bumpkin.

Gary:

Yeah. Yeah. The curse is real. I'm, that, I'm afraid there when it comes into it.

yoyo:

When I moved from Cornwall up to the Midlands, we went to Northampton. Sheron, I swear down, right? I had to change my accent'cause I was gonna get beaten up every day. It was like seriously, had to acclimate really quickly. It was survival. I went to a pretty, pretty rough school. Thanks mom for that. Dickhead, back to you.

Gary:

So all accents actually, and this is real, this is,, this plays into it all. Remember like one of our social, uh, drivers or biological drivers is social engagement. Yeah. So you'll have an almost guarantee and nine, not 10 people. You'll have had people who, I don't know, go away on holiday and they come back, speak in a different accent. Like, oh, you'll, you'll have people who hang around and stuff. I can go one

yoyo:

better, lemme go one better. I used to go to Essex quite a lot for business and I'd come back and someone would say, what you been up to today? I said, just been Essex in it. Do you know what I mean? And I would literally in it though, do you know what I mean? I would literally North London, massive in it though, Enfield, and I'd come back with the colloquialisms of the area that I'd been to. Essex is not Essex. Ethics. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But I see what you're saying., Are we just mirroring or are we being That's

Gary:

exactly it. Yeah. Yeah. That, that's exactly what you're doing. Yeah. So it's called isopractic behavior, which is the technical term. Um, and that's essentially where you are trying to mirror certain movements, certain gestures related to the people who you are trying to engage and get to. Like, we like people who, like, who are like us and who look like us and sound like us and act like us. Yeah. So, um, quite often you'll have, uh, people who alter their accent or they'll go away and they'll come back with a little twang'cause they've been engaging with those different types of personalities and they want them to like them, so they adapt that. So I, um, my first kind of posting was at Four five Commander, uh, or they fight in 45th as they call themselves. Um, and that's all the way up in our broken in Scotland. Um, the other commander units are typically down south. Um, but yeah, I'd, I'd go away and, uh, I, I'd be there like two weeks and I'd come back with a little Scottish twang, uh, or something like that. And, uh, and yeah, so yeah, everybody's accent kind of goes, isn't it?

yoyo:

Yeah. And and people tend to say when they go back home, if they come from an accent, a strong accent, they tend to sort of come, or, or even when my best friend goes back home to Germany, she'll come back and her English is slightly more, you can sense that German accent a little bit. And, when she goes back home, they say to her, your accent's really not very German at all, you know? So,

Gary:

yes,

yoyo:

I guess. Um, but look, it's interesting what you said. I'm gonna pick up on it because there's a lot of talk now around politics and around, increasing far right. Wing ideology, the rejection of difference. I listened to LBC, I listened to James O'Brien and one of his, his huge following in terms of his, chat show. And he's quite often, he quite often gets a few idiots. He calls them Idiots Corner, you know, where they'll, they're basically racist, right? But they don't wanna come out and say anything because that means that they have to kind of admit they're racist, but they're racist. And he'll challenge them. And, and someone will come on the show and they'll say something like, well, you know, they don't really, uh, like, you know, get on with our English culture, do they? You know, and so who else? English culture, then. It'll drill down on this English culture thing. Yeah. Going for a

Gary:

curry rounding.

yoyo:

Right, right. I think, I think exactly What's this English culture? And then no one can answer. No one's willing to answer it. Something. I don't know. I don't even know what the sentiment is behind that. I think, let's just be honest. Why don't you say less brown people in your neighborhood Is, is that racist? Yes. It's so, this is what he's drilling down on. But when you talked about how we warm to people who were like us, who demonstrate characteristics like us. It started to put a light

Gary:

on

yoyo:

in my brain.'cause then I realized how sociologically we are rejecting difference. Nationally, we are rejecting people who think differently to us. We're rejecting people who, or we warm less to people who are different to us, that have a different, ideology, a different value system, a different way of doing things. They're not us. They're different. And I'm thinking maybe the problem is bigger, than we had given it the grace of, to be honest, maybe we can't just put lots of different people together and expect them to get on. But you look at, Panang in Malaysia, you've got three very vastly different cultures living together in one. They've never had a war, they've never disagreed. They don't fall out. But they do live in their community side by side, so they're not really fully integrated. And so I like the sociology of difference getting on and not getting on. How do you hear that?

Gary:

Yeah, it's an interesting one. Really isn't it?, I, what I guess is usually this. The, the fear of these different cultures and different people or anything new that kind of comes in. It, it is from, not a lack of education because that sounds like as though people are stupid or anything like that. It's, it's a lack of awareness really, that we're all people at the end of the day, you know? Um, and you need to be open to understanding the differences between each and everyone.'cause we can all, we can all get together. I mean, look at the, the armed forces, for example. There's a whole, we are a whole like, cluster of, or a melting pot of different cultures, different backgrounds, different races, colors, creeds, everything like that. Um, but we all unite and we all come into one banner. Um, and we've all got that shared interest to kind of like, go on, go off. Uh, so I, I did a, a post every day on, um, uh, on what it means to be a veteran. And, um, you know, it for us that that veteran community is in itself its own, its own culture. So, uh, I remember going out, um, on operations. So in my last three, uh, three, uh, well, my last two tours, sorry, on my last three years, I was working with a very specialist organization, uh, and we'd be training, um, uh, like, uh, Afghan special forces, essentially special police forces and things like that. Um, and what that meant was that instead of you going out where you had like 30 like, uh, UK forces working with like a handful of Afghans, it would be the other way around. It'd be a handful of UK forces going out with a load of Afghans. And as soon as you put in that situation, you realize we're all the same, really? Aren't we? We've, we've got different nuances, you know? All right. You might call one thing a different wing, or you might, you know, uh, believe have certain beliefs here, there, and ever, but we're all the same people. Like, and then you kind of like bond on your, on what, on your similarities rather than your differences.

yoyo:

We have so much more in common though, than we have that's different. That's the thing, you know, we all, you know, have so much more in common. I just think it's quite ignorant of us as a human race really but I get it. I get it. It's part, it's going back to caveman times about the, you know, seeing an enemy and spotting alarm and having protective mechanisms. I don't say as eloquently as you do. But that doesn't mean to say what we're doing is right, just because that's how we've evolved. We're not really evolving very, very brilliantly. Well, to be honest with you, and I do refer to this a lot, so for listeners that do listen all the time, I do apologize. But there is this, there's this cartoon from the Daily Mail that I used to deliver when I was 14 years old. It was a picture of the Earth and two, aliens ago looking out of a window Yeah. On a spaceship looking at earth. And one said, Bob, should we go down and say hello? And the other one went, nah mate, they're not ready for us. They're still pointing guns at each other.

Gary:

Yeah, yeah. And that, it's exactly that.

yoyo:

And I'm thinking, oh God, we need to evolve a bit more really. But and that's why I think people so profoundly have a change in mindset. When they go to the very extremities of our atmosphere, almost to the border of space, they tend to have this kind of oh my god moment. We are this little blue.in the middle of nowhere, and you've only gotta listen to Brian Cook say that, we're in a galaxy that's got 300 billion starts. That's the same size as our son. You know, and then you hear him talk about the uniqueness of us as humans, and you just think, oh man, we're kind of like our our own worst enemy. Oh, we really?

Gary:

Yeah. Yeah. And it's that ca that caveman mentality, like you say, like, you know, we've, you know, the, the neocortex, that logical thinking part of our brain is the new part. Um, but we've still got all of this backlog from, from caveman times to kind of deal with. Um, plus, you know, people tend to feel what they don't know. Yep. You know, so if you've got a person who's been brought up doing, uh, one thing, only seeing one type of person, only talking one type of way. You know, meeting two veg kind of person all the time. Yeah. And then next about somebody comes in who doesn't look like them or anything, they're gonna have that fear. Um, and then, you know, if things aren't gonna go in too well in their life or anything like that, then they'll look for, um, uh, a, a channel to, uh, to vent their anger or frustration on. And unfortunately, that that happens all over the place, doesn't it? But, uh, yeah, the first time that I went out, uh, in Afghanistan, I was like this scared little boy, you know, not wondering, wondering what all of these people were and you know, why, why they were looking at me like this or anything like that. But, um, but that soon, that soon goes when you understand that we are all the same person and that we are all, all part of the same kind, right. Species and everything.

yoyo:

So in our previous conversation, you talked about rehearsal behavior and the warning pickpocket site. I never forgot this. Take me through.

Gary:

Yeah. Yeah. So, some of the things like obviously we don't propose having checklists, you know, it's all part of a layered approach, but we look for, like consistent, uh, indicators that something is going on. Something's going on. And some of the three, uh, I would say the three most, uh, reliable ones that we have, uh, that are related to kinesics, uh, or body language, is, uh, your sporadic directions of travel. Um, you target witness scanning and then what we class as rehearsal behavior as well. So, we'll, we'll, we'll do this again. What is the first thing you, you're going on the underground, um, and then you see a big fat sign in front of you and it says, warning pickpockets in your area. The first thing, what's the first thing that you're gonna do?

yoyo:

Uh, a blokes will pat their pockets to check is still there. They'll,

Gary:

their pockets, they'll check their wallet. You know, every time I walk out of my house, you'll see me tapping my wallet and tapping my keys and phone and everything like that to make sure it's there. And that is what, that is a good indicator for rehearsal like behavior. You're carrying something that is linked to a particularly stressful task or stressful event. You know, if you lose your wallet, that's pretty stressful. You know, if you lose your keys, that's pretty stressful. If you are carrying a weapon with the intent to do some harm, that is pretty stressful as well. If you're carrying drugs, um, and you see a, um, uh, like a cop or something like that, cop a police officer or security guard or security cameras, you're gonna tap it and you can see this everywhere. So, um, uh, we did a piece on, uh, shoplifting and CCTV cameras and stuff like that, and you'll see people who are walking in and they'll be doing rehearsal like behavior. They'll be playing in a certain part of their, their, um, uh, their coat, or they'll be fingering or placing something or practicing a drawer. Um, and, uh, you'll analyze that. And then next about they'll pull out a bag, you know, like a bag for life or something like that. Which, you know, we're encouraged to carry, but if you've got hostile intent or if you are, you know, you're planning to steal and use that bag, then that's why you are leaking it out. That's why you're rehearsing that kind of behavior. Yeah. Um, so we, we use it to spot, uh, weapons and crowns, uh, and people smuggling drugs and, and stuff like that as well. But it's, it's fairly reliable. It's really good.

yoyo:

Let's also talk to you about what you're gonna be talking about at Ifpo Live 25, because you talk a lot about CCTV and, and spotting, warning signs, don't you?

Gary:

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, we actually opened up with, um, a few case studies of, uh, like homicides and uh, and attacks that have been caught on camera. And we analyze'em for, uh, everything from like the facial expressions. Um, uh, you run the flashes of anger, fear, everything that's associated with all this type of stuff to your rehearsals, sporadic directions of travel and things like that. Um, yeah, so we go into, uh, the elements of threat protection. We go into, uh, the reason behind it as well, you know, reason why we, uh, why we can use, uh, body language and NBC. Um, and then, uh, and explore anything from emotions to indicators or pre-incident indicators. Uh, we also give, uh, some tips and tricks on how to be able to spot atmospheric shifts. So we link it to something called A NBA, which a lot of, um, like veterans or or milch personnel, uh, listen to this podcast. They'll have a little cheeky smile on the face when they hear A NBA. And it's a absence of the normal and a presence of presence of the abnormal. Yeah. So it is linking that s spidey sense kind of, uh, uh, feeling that we get to, uh, to an actionable result. Um, so whenever you've got a presence of the abnormal or of things that, that usually happen that aren't happening anymore, that is a, uh, that is an atmospheric shift, and that's when you should start to kind of like pay attention, uh, become aware of your surroundings and uh, and kind of go on from there. Yeah.

yoyo:

And I can't let you go until you tell me that story that you love telling. It's one of the stories that you can tell publicly. Yeah. About the Afghan farmer.

Gary:

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there's a couple of them actually now, but, um, uh, but yeah, so the, I like to try and like apply context to everything that we do. You know, um, so for example, uh, there was one situation, um, where there were a couple of marines, uh, in a, in a fob. And, um, they'd constantly been getting hit all of the time. Um, you know, it's a very dangerous place. I think it was in or somewhere like that. Uh, and it's coming up to nighttime. And, uh, they see this, uh, this, this person, this fighting age, male and very shadowy looking figure guy, um, carrying a shovel. And he suddenly starts digging and it's like, okay, right? So these two watch towers, they're communicating. Were all, we've IDed born hostile, he's digging. And they were observing him and he digged had a look around, shut up, duck back down again. Started digging again. So they fired a couple of flares, couple of warning shots, right? And this guy kept on digging and they, um, decided, right, okay, we're gonna now apply some lethal force and try and get, you know, try and overcome this threat. Just as they were about to do it, somebody came on the radio, just stop. And I realized that this wasn't a hostile, it was digging an IED along a well-known route as I thought it was actually a farmer, you know? Um, and, uh, the reason why I like this story is because you're applying all of the principles of like threat detection. You're, you're spotting something that's abnormal. You're recognizing a pattern behavior that is linked to hostile intent, but you've failed to apply context to it as well. So, in Afghanistan, at nighttime, um, well it's very hot during the day, isn't it? Water's very, uh, very sparse. So, um, so what they do is they'll dig like grid squares out, essentially. They'll build up like little walls, they play, uh, on mud, and then they'll pour water into it. And then once that, that grid square's being, uh, being filled with water, they'll knock it and then, uh, all the water will flow into the next grid square and so on and so forth. And that's how the water plants. So actually that person was just, was just doing that. Uh, really. But yeah, it's a really good illustration of, um, uh, of applying context and why we need to apply context. Uh, because if that wasn't, uh, applied then that could have been a, a huge nightmare and that would've been, um, a civilian casualty. And then all those good work that, uh, people have been working on, uh, building that reputation, um, uh, would, would've been gone down the drain. As well as you'd add. This is very casual, which is Well,

yoyo:

yeah, I mean we, I try to bring critical thinking into almost as many conversations as I can because I think it's important for children to learn to be critical thinkers, adults, et cetera. Especially in today's world that's full of misinformation, malformation, et cetera. But you're almost kind of introducing a kind of critical observation, um, technique there, aren't you? Like, is it what it looks like or do we just take the time to consider that? It could be something else.'cause that guy nearly got shot, right?

Gary:

Yeah, yeah. And um, and you know, it happens, but yeah, you just need to have that ability to think ly. So, um, uh, one of the things that we're gonna talk about, uh, is something called amygdala hijacking. And this is the, this is the, uh, this is what happens when your body's under stress. So very, like loosely. Uh, and in layman terms, you've got three. If we look at our brain in three different parts, so a lot of people will recognize this as a tru brain. Okay? So you've got your neocortex, uh, which is like your new, your critical thinking brain. You've got your paleo mammalian brain, which is like the emotional, it's a, you know, it's a mouthful when you, when you're saying it's, uh, on speaker, the paleo mammalian brain. Um, and then you've got your, uh, your reptilian complex basal ganglia, brainstem and stuff like that, which represents the very primitive, um, freeze spike, like all that type of stuff. Um, now in your limbic system, you've got, uh, on, in each hemisphere you've got a little cluster, a little almond, um, of neurons called, um, the amygdala. And its job is like the guard dog for the alarm. Of the brain. So it processes only external stimuli, which, uh, which comes into it. And it's very, very sensitive to like stress. So as part of like our programming, if you were like, if your body is undergoing so much stress and so much like, you know, external stimuli, this amygdala will kick in and essentially shut down the neocortex or, or reduce your capacity to think critically and prioritize the freeze bite for light and form responses to ultimately get you out of a situation. So whenever you are, take that, that story, uh, there, the Afghan farmer there, you know, you're in that much stress because you, you, you, you're facing all of this. You've got all this pressure on you, and then something's presenting itself as a stressor. So that gets engaged and hijacks your brain. It stops you from critical thinking. So you have to force yourself to think critically as you just said there, um, and do it. And, um, yeah, it, it happens all the time. But in particular, soldiers, you know, we are, we're, we're giving coping strategies and we're giving mechanisms to be able to kind of reduce that impact, uh, of that. So, um, another story that we got is, um, uh, it, we essentially went into this, uh, into this really, really hostile area. So the briefing before we got in there was, uh, listen guys, there was one friendly person in this area of shopkeeper and he left last week. So you are nobody's patrolled in this, uh, in this area for like, the past three months. Um, and we were on strike ops at the time. Um, so our specialist unit was just solely tasked with going into these particularly hostile areas. Okay. And, uh, and we went in and instantly everything has changed, you know, uh, absence of the normal presence of the abnormal, um, the, everything from the buildings, the streets, the people, the interactions. It was all completely different. Um, we went into, uh, we held a, a local surer, which is like a, a meeting with the village elders. As soon as we got into that meeting, um, we recognized that things just weren't as they were supposed to be. I think our, um, Afghan team took maybe five or six people, uh, outta that meeting straight away, uh, and put'em under arrest. And as soon as that meeting had finished, we had like 19 firing positions that opened up all around us. Uh, we're completely surrounded, you know, which you can imagine gets that amygdala going a little bit. Um, and there's one point as we were extracting, uh, that we're all waiting in this little bun line to this. Fields everywhere, and it's horrible stuff to run and everything like that. And, uh, everybody in the line is just giggling, like laughing. We're all like, this is, this is pretty weird, right? And I wonder why are we all laughing? And we just see like our mates running across the field try and extract. And as they're running across the field, there's bullets like chasing them like that. So we're all like, we're all laughing, like, uh, and then there's that horrible situation where like, you are laughing at your mate going across and then it gets to you in the queue and you're like,

ah, shit, I've got to go across

Gary:

there

now, haven't I

Gary:

like that? So then I'm running sprinting and I don't sprint very fast, you know, I'm built for, I'm built for comfort, not speed, sprinting, carrying all of this weight on you. That, uh, and literally seeing bullets flying at your feet because thankfully, uh, the enemy didn't know how to lead, um, and get there. But, um, where I'm going with this is, uh, like one of the principles that we look at, particularly in the Marines, is, uh, cheerfulness in the face of adversity. You know, and it's something that we teach on our, um, uh, up and coming leader program as well, like this kind of commando ethos. But just by being able to take yourself outta that situation, almost like snap yourself back into a, you know, use these little tools, have a bit of a giggle, have a little bit of that, that sick humor that comes along with it, it stops it present, uh, prevents that hijacking kind of face. Um, and it allows you to critically think and you no longer just like sporadically running into fire. You are applying all the techniques that have that, that have been taught to you to get out that hard targeting, the movement, all the stuff like that. that's it. I'm,

yoyo:

I'm just speechless. Because the way you told that story is so cool. Like, I'm actually imagining it happen, like it's happening like a movie is rolling,

Gary:

uh,

yoyo:

through my brain. Gary, what can I say? It's been a pleasure. I wish you all the success for Ifpo life, 25 on the 5th of June., Have a great time. I know it's gonna be highly beneficial. Gary is gonna be there telling lots of great stories. If you're in the area, please go along. It's worth it. It's a great networking event. Lunch is being provided and some snacks and coffees and teas all about networking. So there should be a lot of people there you can network with as well. Gary, all the best for the rest of the year and, thank you so much for joining us on the Security Circle podcast.

Gary:

Thank you very much, and I'm really looking forward to this event as well.