The Security Circle
An IFPOD production for IFPO the very first security podcast called Security Circle. IFPO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, and is an international security membership body that supports front line security professionals with learning and development, mental Health and wellbeing initiatives.
The Security Circle
EP 131 Tim Wenzel on "Targeted: CEOs, Culture, and the Fallout We Didn't Predict'
🔑 Top Talking Points: “Targeted: CEOs, Culture, and the Fallout We Didn't Predict”
- The Assassination of Brian Thompson
– Overview of the attack, public reaction, and why so little is known about the case
– The transformation of the attacker into a disturbing “folk hero” among some Gen Z communities - Executive Risk in a Post-COVID World
– The new vulnerability landscape for C-suite leaders
– Boards and legal teams under pressure to take protective intelligence seriously - Cultural and Psychological Disruption in the Workplace
– The breakdown of the “psychological contract” between employers and employees
– Why many organizations can no longer define what a “happy employee” looks like - The Power (and Neglect) of Sentiment Analysis
– How companies are missing early warning signals
– The shift from traditional threat monitoring to broader emotional intelligence strategies - The Secret Service Model for the Private Sector
– Why organizations must think of CEOs like heads of state
– The need for threat councils, brand monitoring, and pre-event risk intelligence - Kindness, Community, and the Rise of Faith
– An unexpected resurgence in church attendance among Gen Z
– How security professionals can use compassion to rebuild fractured cultures - The Role of Authenticity in Leadership and Social Media
– Audience fatigue with AI-generated content
– Why authenticity, engagement, and connection are winning trust in 2025 - What Comes Next: Security as Culture Keepers
– Tim's forecast: security leaders must step up as cultural architects
– Rebuilding trust, tracking sentiment, and protecting more than just people — but values
Tim Wenzel, the Creator of The Kindness Games and Associate Managing Director of Enterprise Security Risk Management at Kroll, is a global security executive, international keynote speaker and thought leader in the security, leadership, and wellness industries.
As a highly regarded Coach & Mentor, he has a passion to transform the existing paradigms of leadership and risk management while building highly effective teams and joyful environments for them to experiment and thrive within.
Tim is a leadership columnist with the Security Journal Americas magazine and a sought-after SME in Enterprise Security Risk Management (ESRM). He helped lead the effort to codify it as the official risk doctrine within ASIS International as the Outreach & Education Lead on the 2017 - 2022 ESRM Steering Committees. In 2024 & 2025, Tim was named as one of Security Journal Americas’ 30 influencers in the Security Industry.In 2024, Tim was named a Top 40 Thought Leader in the security industry, worldwide by the Life Safety Alliance. In 2023, Tim co-authored a book entitled: The Kindness Games: How a Single Post Changed Our Mindset about Community. In 2022, Tim was named a Global Influencer & Thought Leader in the Security Industry by IFSEC International, and was profiled by US Veterans magazine. He also became an Executive Fellow at WiLD Leaders, specializing in Industrial-Organizational Psychology, leadership, team development, and coaching.
Security Circle â•ď¸Ź is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers
If you enjoy the security circle podcast, please like share and comment or even better. Leave us a fab review. We can be found on all podcast platforms. Be sure to subscribe. The security circle every Thursday. We love Thursdays. Hi, I'm Yolanda And welcome to the Security Circle Podcast, produced in association with ifpo, the International Foundation for Protection Officers. This podcast is all about connection, bringing you closer to the greatest minds, boldest thinkers, trailblazers, and change makers across the security industry. Whether you are here to grow your network, spark new ideas, or simply feel more connected to the world of protection and risk, you are in the right place wherever you are listening from. Thank you for being a part of the Security Circle journey. Your company today means everything.
Yoyo:Well, I'm bringing back, uh, what can I say? Uh, legendary. Uh, not many people make it back a second time, uh, but he's on his own this time. Tim Wezel, welcome to the Security Circle podcast again. How you doing?
Tim:I'm good, yoyo. How are you?
Yoyo:I'm all right. We, we seem to find ourselves back here again.
Tim:Hey, you know what? We're good people. We like to hang out. Actually, I think the only reason I got in the first time was because of Lee, who's actually legendary. I don't know how I made it back on my own, but thank you.
Yoyo:No, and it was really great to meet you at GSX again, see you, for the second time. Uh, are you going there again this year?
Tim:Absolutely.
Yoyo:I think I'm on the, on the, on the fence with it at the moment, but we'll see. It's a possibility I could be on a vacation, but that's another story. Um, I know. Tim, we decided to come back, didn't we, to talk specifically about a big subject that's, affecting the, uh, FTSE sort of two 50, the fts E 500, and that's around the shooting of the United Healthcare, CEO, Brian Thompson, New York City. Those that remember it was December, 2024. And the attacker Mangione, who allegedly acted out of resentment towards the US healthcare system, was caught after a nationwide hunt. He's pleaded not guilty, to the charges, and the case still continues. But let's talk about the details of the case and what we know so far. Take it from the top.
Tim:All right. Yeah. So, uh, let's talk about what we know for a fact, which is actually. Shockingly little. Um, that's, that's kind of the interesting thing with this case is that, um, not a lot has come out as a review of like what actually was in place, what wasn't inva in place, and then what happened. Um, even the court proceedings. They locked out the media. They're not talking about anything. Um, and, and there's a very good reason for it, which we're going to get into, which is actually the prime factor affecting the Fortune 500 right now. Uh, so essentially, uh, in December, uh, we saw Luigi, uh, on video, uh, assassinate this, uh, CEO of UnitedHealthcare, Brian Thompson. And, um, he apparently waited all night. Across the street, went to a coffee shop, uh, intermingled with the, the black car drivers, the taxi drivers, like they were saying that they saw him all night. Uh, he did an odd thing. He left some unfired bullets on the ground, uh, that had like words on them, which. I don't remember what they said, but it went along with like a book that had been published on why, uh, healthcare companies don't, uh, pay out their claims. Uh, and then, um, they went off and found him and, uh, he hasn't said a lot. He hasn't said a lot. And he's actually, he, when he's appeared on camera, you know, he's like yelled and kind of appeared like a little bit unstable. So I think there's definitely a mental health issue here. And then even talking to family and what they have dug up. He apparently went through an injury. He went through a very dark time trying to recover. Um, he isolated himself from his family and friends. I, I believe he moved to like Hawaii or some island where like he didn't have contact with his family and they were worried about him. Um, and, and he went through this like typical like going from a normal person to a traumatic event to isolating themselves and then becoming lost in the internet chat forms. Um. I think one detail that did come out is he was never a United Healthcare customer, um, which is interesting.
Yoyo:That broadens the scope, doesn't it, in terms of how we think of this from a risk perspective. But he came across like a top of his class bright, you know, friends said he had the whole multi family. Mm-hmm.
Tim:And then he just kind of, uh, fell down and started rolling down the hill and, you know. Getting lost in, in the turbulence that we see these days since Covid. Right?
Yoyo:In fact, he, he refers to this kind of parasitic health insurance companies. Is that making a lot of other insurance companies, health companies even look at their own processes and thinking, crikey, you know, you gotta cover some bases here.
Tim:Oh yeah, for sure. And it's, it is affecting more than just health insurance companies. Um, it's affecting the Fortune 500 in a very specific way, which we'll get to. Um, so the interesting thing is there's been no real facts that have come out about like, did he have security? Did he not have security? Did he not have security? In New York, there seems to be conflicting reports that like maybe sometimes he had security, maybe sometimes he didn't. They were obviously not with him that morning. Uh, but these facts have been hard to validate, um, and there's a lot of, you know, conflicting information. Now, one thing that's not hard to validate, um, because his wife said it on the news, was that he had been receiving a lot of threats,
Yoyo:had he, okay.
Tim:So he had been receiving a lot of threats. The reason she knows is because he never really talked about work, but he brought these things up to her. But I don't think he was the only person. Uh, I think UnitedHealthcare, um, was, uh, their executives and people were receiving threats, which is not uncommon, I don't think, for the healthcare industry. I mean, it's, it's a tough business to be in. You have people that are hurting. You have people going through things. The healthcare system in general. It's not a super high satisfaction industry, right? Mm-hmm. With your treatment and everything like that. So it's, it's kind of a, an environment that's kind of perfect for all of this. Um, but yeah, just not a lot to go on, not a lot of things that are coming out. And like I said, they've even blocked out the coverage of, of the courtroom. And the reason is, is because somehow Luigi became a folk hero. Um, he got a ton of, um, support online from, uh, gen Zers in college saying like, he's taken our fight. Like, you know, maybe it wasn't the right thing that he did, but he is doing what needs to be done. You know, this, this needs to happen. And like that was really unsettling. It escalated super fast. I think he got like almost a million dollars on a GoFundMe page. For his defense, like crazy. Um, things that you would never really think would happen. And actually, uh, last week, um, in San Francisco, somebody has made, um, a musical about Luigi. What reimagine, reimagining from his perspective, what his truth is, and you know. Why he did these things and why he may not be guilty. Um, and it's sold out like the entire year is sold out right now, which is shocking.
Yoyo:That's more than shocking.
Tim:It's shocking.
Yoyo:Oh, that's unbelievable.
Tim:And so, you know, we find ourselves right, and, and so we can tie this back to the Kindness Games, right. We're all at odds with each other. Uh, we went through covid lockdown separated us, our leaders, our media, you know, everyone we looked to fueled those fires. And Lee and I thought we were in the middle of an ideological hunger games, and so we started to try to counter program that. But since last April, well, no, I guess we're past April now, April, 2024. So even before. This United Healthcare assassination, as I've been talking to my clients and my clients are mostly Fortune 500 am law 100 ultra high net worth families. Um, I've been talking to a lot of general counsels, a lot of chiefs of human resources, and I I asked them like a similar question like, Hey, help me understand your employee base. Like what's your baseline of normal, and then what things are abnormal right now? You can't quite account for. And even going back to April of last year, months, and months and months before this happened, they were telling me, Tim, we don't actually know what a normal employee population looks like anymore. We're not sure what a happy employee looks like and here's why. Whoa. Everything that's in the news, everything that's in politics, there's an upcoming election and all the things. Um. Everybody is so strongly opinionated about them. And then we've got more complaints for employees against managers than we ever have before. We have more complaints managers against employees than we ever have before. We're working issues out and we're like, yeah, this is a good resolution. Nobody's happy. We institute policies that we think are gonna be great. People are upset. We fix policies that we thought were broken. People are upset. Um, we do something that we know is gonna cause a little bit of turmoil. Everybody's upset and, and so like my clientele has almost universally say, we are completely disrupted. We do not know how to, how to track happy employees versus unhappy employees, satisfied employees because everybody is just caught in this turbulence.
Yoyo:Let's talk about disruption, though the security industry ultimately thrives with disruption, it for sure forces us. Yeah. Doesn't it to, um, become better, put in stronger policies, put in better protocols, think differently, critical think, but. It's not like insider a threat. Programs like you, an inside a threat program, no matter how good it is, isn't gonna predict what happened. You know, in the case of Luigi Mangione, that's not gonna tell you that your CEO is under immediate threat. What are CEOs thinking right now, do you think, Tim?
Tim:So this year, this first six months of this year. Um, currently I'm at 75 Marriott nights for the year, which is insane. An insane amount of travel. We're not to June yet. This is May 8th. Um, I'm not sure when you're gonna release this, but this is May 8th. And, um, almost all of my work this year is doing work that has been asked for by boards of directors, um, that have been asked by the C-Suite and companies saying like, we need to figure out what our risk situation around our executives looks like. We need to understand. What our travel risk looks like. We need to take security more seriously and we need a global security assessment. I have clients that don't really have security departments. They've never really thought they needed them, and all of a sudden the board is like, you need to build a security department. And so we're doing an assessment to say, what should your security department look like? And here's the interesting thing, I'm not doing any work right now. Uh, that's project based for clients I had last year. These are all new clients that these projects are for. Um, and almost all of them are like, we need this done. We need this being, uh, um, being done by the time we meet with our boards of director and, and even, even companies that we've done business, uh, with in the past. They reach out, Hey, what can we learn from this incident? And, you know, we have this conversation. We say, well, number one, you should, I love your cat, by the way. Um,
Yoyo:try to get in on this, Tim. I know he'd love me, you or me.
Tim:One. How do we are, are we looking at the right things when it comes to risk around our executives and travel and these types of things? And then. So we're like, well, okay, are you keeping track of the people that are unhappy with you are? Are you doing proper intelligence and investigations? Are you doing POI investigations to find out who these people online are? And some are saying like, yes, yes, we're doing it. And a lot of them are like, you know, we've been talking about that for a long time, but we haven't really done that. We're like, well, that's a great first step just to figure out who's making noise. Who does not like you? Who is telling other people they should be upset about you? And then tracking how that sentiment flows across the internet, right? Because it's not just one person, they will say it, other people will jump on the bandwagon and begin talking about it. And that you can track and you can actually say like, Ooh, this is having a big effect. Yeah. Um, another thing that we're talking with our clients about is like, you're a pretty big brand. Do you have. Any brand monitoring that you look for, public perception, uh, market relevance, your ad campaigns, how they're affecting the markets yet, like you should tap into that and say, look, if you see any big swings in sentiment, public perception, satisfaction, dissatisfaction, let us know and let us know why. And if you don't know why we need to figure that out.
Yoyo:But I don't think sentiment analysis, and I think a lot of companies should do more sentiment analysis, but sentiment analysis alone isn't gonna detect something like, it's a piece threat. It is a, it's a collection of tools, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So, and I don't understand why sentiment analysis and so underused. It just gives you an insight. Shouldn't organizations now be almost adopting the Secret Service model in terms of how they protect POTUS against threats to the President of the United States? You know, you've gotta think of your CEO as the, that, the spearhead of your organization, and if there are threats coming through, they have to be examined in the sa in the same way, right?
Tim:So I, I do think, uh, that companies need to take their threat, mattering, protective intelligence much more seriously. Uh, the other thing is, um, to be honest, a lot of threat goes to the legal departments. whether they're like, oh, maybe we should talk to somebody about this. There's some security departments that don't see this type of stuff. If it doesn't get escalated from legal or if they see it, it goes to legal and they make a decision on it. And you know, I've always advocated for like a workplace violence council bring security, hr, legal, everyone together,
Yoyo:peer review. You really
Tim:need to convene a threat management council. You really need to sit down with all of the stakeholders who can make decisions. And you need to say, okay, what is acceptable and what is unacceptable? And how do we know, you know, what is our risk thresholds? What are triggering events like if this happens, if we see this, we don't need to measure the risk threshold. We need to take action until we figure out exactly what we're dealing with. Like make those decisions now. Because if you make those decisions now and then something happens, nobody wants to be wrong. Ooh. Should we really hire EP? I, I mean, I know we said that, but what if, and then the CEO might not like it and like all these things, make the decisions now, write them down and then just say, look, we made this decision based on risk. We saw this triggering instant. We're going to do this and we're going to follow up on it until we understand what's going on and what is not going on. Right. It needs to be targeted in that way. But I mean, if all of a sudden you have executives that are getting an overwhelming amount of threat signal, even if it's not completely targeted to like, I'm gonna do this at this time, you really need to rethink how they engage with the public. Um, another thing, um, how many companies are holding events, uh, offsite events? They're going to other companies events. Their intelligence departments are not scrubbing the registration list to see if there's anyone we know. Even if you have an executive going to another company's event, Hey, send us your registration list. We need to scrub it to see if there's anybody we're concerned about there. Um, these things need to be done. It's, it's, it's not rocket science, obviously. It's just. How do we do the work? What work is worth doing? And, and, and if you spend, especially right now, a lot of time and maybe some money into figuring out who's who and what's what, that's probably time very well invested. Uh, because then you'll be able to say, this is what we're doing and we think this is reasonable. Some people would think it's above reasonable, but we're doing our due diligence. We're living up to our duty of care. Um, but, but take people serious these days, uh, when they make threats because people, I. This year are more prone to act on the threats that they make than they ever have been. Uh, which is, it's, it's a really interesting thing. And the, the reason that this is important, um, so when Luigi got all of this fame and support a lot of these Fortune 500 companies, like what? Like people are supporting this and then they start to see. There's a lot of people that work for us that are younger, that are supporting this, that changes the game. So now you don't really understand your healthy, satisfied, happy workers, and now you see a segment of your workforce that's actively supporting someone that would do stuff like this. Mm-hmm. What does that mean for you? And that's the question that's been being asked. And that's, and that's why right now there's so much uncertainty in the fortune realm because even companies that have established intelligence programs, established executive protection programs, established threat monitoring programs, the higher up are saying, but is this enough? Because it's so uncertain. And we've never, we've never really been in this situation before, I don't think, not in the modern era of security. I.
Yoyo:So if you are in an organization and your board of directors is receiving a number of different, uh, threats, it's now time to start thinking differently. It's not a case of. I don't know, but people, we are complacent. I know. I think, I think generally in the security industry, our harbors are doing, we're the ones saying worst could happen, right? But there's a lot of people, including legal teams that look for confirmation bias that it isn't as bad as it looks. And, uh, our job, I think, is to convince people that it could be as bad as it looks. And that's the battle sometimes internally, isn't it? It
Tim:is. And then what metrics are you keeping? That's something that security departments are usually not very good at is keeping metrics, um, that are meaningful besides door alarms and things like that, because you should be looking at your data sets and being like, what internally, what externally could tell us something's changing that could lead to a threat incident? And right now I'm telling a lot of my clients like, Hey, so. Your workplace violence program that needs to become more active, almost like an insider threat program. Uh, not that we're looking at every employee, but like, Hey, you have employees that were star performers, and all of a sudden they're not like, that's a problem. We need to figure that out right now, why this is happening. It could be a personal thing, it could be whatever, but we should have much less of an appetite to say. Well, we'll see how it works out. Like let's engage with these people, with this Workplace Violence Council, right? Uh, you have people that were, you know, good workers and all of a sudden they're bullying people or they're, they're disruptive. Um, you know, here's the thing. Violence never comes out of nowhere in the workplace. It's always proceeded by disruptive behavior. Disruptive behavior includes missing work days. When you never miss workdays, uh, bullying or harassment from people that have never been known for that, um, you know, even just, you know, just making complaints against other delo employees.'cause like, oh, they're talking about this. I don't like that they're talking about this. Or they're annoying, or stuff like that. Like when you start to see specific employees really change their behavior and it comes up through this performance portal, that's something we really need to take a keen look at. I think.
Yoyo:What's next, do you think, Tim?
Tim:Hmm. Well I wrote an article this year, uh, in the security Journal Americas about what 2025 is gonna be.
Yoyo:Yep. Spill the tea.
Tim:I made the case, uh, that a lot of us think Covid is over. Um mm-hmm. And it is, but we're just now seeing the third order effects from it. So we came outta Covid, a little less happy, a little less human, a little less community oriented. Then we went into it. Um, but also a lot of companies, uh, and a lot of organizations were pressured during covid to take positions on things they would never normally take positions on.
Yoyo:Give us an example.
Tim:All sorts of things like vaccinations. Most companies wouldn't even care, but like, Hey, you have to take a position. Right? DEI, almost all companies had already like equitable workplaces, equal opportunity workplace programs, like really good programs, right? And then, you know, they took on this DEI name some companies didn't actually change anything. They did, some radically changed what they did. But the most important thing is not what they did. It's that for some reason during this disrupted time, the risk management activities that would always go with like, Hey, the company's taking this position. We're making this move with our employees. We're doing this thing. So the risk management activities that would follow up to say like, okay, we're doing this for these reasons. We expect these outcomes, and then we're gonna trend this. We're gonna reevaluate it. We're gonna see where this is going. That didn't happen. Um, and so now we end up five years later. People are disruptive. We all have super high opinions over everything. Ideologies, political things, religious things, things that aren't even political or controversial. Like everybody's upset, like, I can't believe you're for Diet Coke, man. Coke Zero's a thing. You know? And And everybody's just going crazy. Combative. They're
Yoyo:combative. Yeah. We've gone into a combative mindset, haven't we?
Tim:Absolutely. So for the next five years, the rest of this decade. Companies are going to have to rethink these things, but security leaders have to be thought leaders within their own company. So most companies right now, even companies that had amazing cultures going into pandemic, their cultures are decimated. They have very little employee engagement. Employee trust is an all time low. Actually, an interesting statistic, in 2024, there were major presidential and prime ministerial elections across the globe, right?
Yoyo:Yep. Yep. About 70, almost
Tim:all the incumbents were voted out.
Yoyo:Mm-hmm.
Tim:Change across the globe, which is crazy because incumbents always have the upper hand.
Yoyo:Yep.
Tim:That should tell you something. Trust in government, trust in employers, trust in like the powerful is at an all time low. Yeah. We need to rebuild that. So companies are going to be doing cultural initiatives to like security needs to be involved, security needs to be thoughtfully ingrained in these cultural initiatives, both in like, Hey, security's important. It's because you do such important work. We need to protect you while you work. We need to protect our work product. Like all these different things. But security needs to be on the risk management committee watching, we're doing this cultural initiative. Why are we doing it? What are we expecting to see? Are we seeing these things? How are people reacting? Is that a reasonable reaction or is that a little over the top? Should we be understanding what's going on? M managers. Are gonna have to be let go. Leaders are gonna have to be let go. People that have just become so polarized and upset employees, lots of employees are already being let go.
Yoyo:I see a lot of inaction being equally as dangerous as there're being an overreaction,
Tim:there's no room for not doing anything and, and a lot of these companies are seeing it in their bottom line. Yeah, they need to reengage their employees, recreate a, a healthy culture. Um, but if, if you're a security leader and you're not involved in that initiative. It's not gonna turn out well
Yoyo:from an employee's perspective. I think we're looking at a lot of employees feeling that the psychological contract is broken, Tim,
Tim:for sure.
Yoyo:And, and when that psychological contract is broken, the onus is on the employer to, you know, to start to rebuild that trust. I do worry that it's happening on such a broad scale, though.
Tim:So, you know, I wasn't alive for this, but the only thing in recent history I can see is like the sixties and seventies, right? So the Vietnam War, like all these protests, like, so this is what we're seeing. But what happened that was, if you've ever gone through executive protection school, all the assassination case studies happen out of the seventies and eighties. Because, and we're seeing it now, these, uh, social groups, these political groups, they're becoming more turbulent. Their protests are becoming violent, and now they're starting to target business leaders to say, you know what? You're gonna change the way you're doing business and we're gonna cause you to do it. And this is, this is where that, um. Economical terrorism came in back in the seventies and eighties groups saying, you know what? We're gonna force you to change your policy the way you do business, how you do business. And if we're not careful, we could absolutely end up back there. And it's, and it's way more easy for it to happen than ever before. I mean, people used to have to call each other up. On landlines that you could literally put alligator clips to and like listen to what people are saying. We have encrypted apps, we have chat rooms, we have all these places, um, where these types of activities can be coordinated. Never before have we had the ability to coordinate such mass people effort without leaving a signal that can be easily grabbed than now. And so I think this is why it's so important for companies to get involved in these cultural renewal programs and do it thoughtfully and rebuild that trust and, and rebuild their brand.
Yoyo:So how much of, an influence do you think individuals declining mental health is having a huge factor here?
Tim:I, I mean. Mental health has an all time low since Covid, right? Mm-hmm. So look at Luigi. He got hurt, recluse. We all did that during Covid and now we're coming out and we're back in life. And life is not how we want it to be. A lot of us. So there's a lot of people that are kind of rec recruiting back into these special interest groups, uh, websites, you know, stuff like that to where they're not getting healthy stimulation, right? Just look at the media. Everything is like, fear, danger, ah. It's like guys, if, if, if you're conditioned to react to that stimuli, then people will react to any unsettling stimuli and work gets full of unsettling stimuli. I'm stressed. I've got three reports due, right? But if I react in a way that's like, oh, I can't stand this. My life shouldn't be this way. That's something that we're not really prepared to watch for right now, historically, right?
Yoyo:So workplace violence on the increase. But actually, interestingly, mass shootings in the United States is actually down in this, Q1, uh, of 2025 compared to 2024. But that doesn't mean to say that, you know, they're out of the woods in terms of statistics. What else do we need to be considering?
Tim:Just engaging each other as people, right? So, you know, we, we spend so much time assigning our perceived value on one another based on how well you align with whatever we view as important. Uh, at the Kindness Games, we talk about this concept of our common humanity. Um, what is that? Right? Like Lee and Kahan and Kelsey and I spent a lot of time talking about like, how do we define humanity? Because at a time when, and everybody's like, you don't look like me. You didn't come from where I come from. You don't, you haven't walked in my shoes, so you know nothing about me. Like, we can't be friends. That's actually not true. Um. I did the invasion of Iraq when I was 20. I was from the cornfields of Illinois. I spent basically five years in the Middle East, most of my twenties. I love Middle Eastern culture. Middle Eastern people are amazing. We had nothing in common. In fact, during that time, 2003 to 2010, a kid from the cornfield of Illinois and people in the Middle East should have had zero things in common. Yet, I have friends there to this day and I love it. So we decided that we could probably define humanity as, um, as individuals. We all have big ideas, big dreams, big goals, things that we want to attain, you know, ways that we want to be recognized by our community. And almost universally, we fall short. We don't achieve the dream, we don't achieve the popularity. We don't land the job, we don't do these things. Um, and then some of us pick ourselves back up and we get back on the path and others don't. But if we understand that we all have these lofty goals, these aspirations, and we all disappoint ourselves, why are we so upset when other people disappoint us? Why can't we just see ourself in their struggle and be like, you know what? I've got you, man,
Yoyo:because the, the polarization that's being. Spiffed up by social media. Sorry, I'm trying to think of the of the right word to say, but it's literally being spiffed up by social media polarizing people is completely contrary to compassionate instincts, you know? That's true. And so therefore the force is greater with social media. Social media has hooked people in. And remember, you know, during covid, many of us had the news on 24 7. Many of us were glued to social media feeds about certain things, information, new stuff, new figures, facts, whatever, challenging, inappropriate, misleading information. That's what I spent most of my time doing. But it worked because then other people started to challenge, dubious sources of information. We had here early doors, I think during the first lockdown or just prior to the first lockdown, you know, the army of taking control of Croydon near south of London. The Army hadn't taken control of London. The Army was just moving through Croydon to go to an area to support, you know, another, but, you know, and it was that dangerous and, and mines restless. Mines started to make four and four turn up to 16,999. And it genuinely felt like there were very few rational people. I guess, you know, it would be very interesting to see in the passing of time, Tim, the kind of from a sociological perspective, what a massive global incident like that can do to a nation's collective.
Tim:I think we're seeing it right? I mean, we're having really poor repercussions from that entire period, right? We spent five years being conditioned to react to stimuli that we didn't agree with or that we were fearful of. But at the same time, my speaking engagements, talking about leading with kindness, talking about the insecurity and security, basically talking about how to banish fear from your leadership psyche and from your relationships. Or through the roof. Actually, another interesting thing, so social media is driving a lot of this stuff, but people are fatiguing of that. Mm-hmm.
Yoyo:Including me
Tim:last year, and this is just an interesting thing, right? So we've seen the secularization of society for a long time last year. More bibles were bought worldwide than. In the previous 10 years,
Yoyo:what's going on? The amount of young men joining church, the people
Tim:getting into church, so Right. So we are seeing, you know, I'm not saying, you know, Christian or whatever, it doesn't matter. It's, it's coming out of your reclusiveness and getting back into a community that is healthy and supporting. So that's a good sign and I think. What we need to do is foster that within our conversations. And, and, and an easy way to do it is when somebody says something that makes you like, huh? Oh, you said it, you said it. And you start to feel the anger. Just ask yourself a question like, why am I angry? And then ask them a question and say, Hey, could you help me understand that position because I just don't get it. And then be quiet and listen and maybe make notes of other questions you have. Because when you ask questions, it produces curiosity and it takes you away from your fight or flight mode. And that's the way we can start leading our relationships. And if you're in security and you really need to start leading all of your relationships to a healthier place so that you can have levelheaded conversations about things that may seem overkill or may seem. We don't really do this. Like why do we need to do it? It, it, it's, and a lot of security. When we say we need to do new things, it causes that fear response. And now we've just talked about the last five years we've taught, been taught to react against that fear response. And so even when we try to engage our business leaders, we have to realize that this is a factor in play and we need to overcome it. We need to really focus on creating a good storyline that resonates with them. So that they understand where we're coming from and we're not just be like, well, we need to do this, and, and they're caught off guard and they don't know what that thing is.
Yoyo:Maybe the storyline is simple as Jesus Christ, Tim. So lemme tell you something. I mean, it's worked for millions. Let me tell you something. This is from The Guardian. It's dated the 21st of April, 2025. I got the first glimpse of this listening to my very favorite chat show, host, uh, James O'Brien. Recent data indicates a surge in church attendance across England and Wales with a 50% increase in the share of the population, a attending church at least once a month since 2018. This rise, particularly pronounced among young adults including Gen Z, with a significant increase in those age between 18 and 24, who now report regular church going, when I heard this, Tim, I thought it was April 1st. I thought it was April Fools serious.
Tim:And, and that's not just happening in the uk, that's happening across Europe, that's happening throughout the us that's happening in Canada, that's happening in um, in Asia, which is also shocking.
Yoyo:It's also linked to a rise in ethnic minority population as well, certainly in England and Wales, leading to greater diversity within the church. But interestingly, the percentage of adult population attending church at least monthly, has risen from 8% in 2018 to 12% in 2024. Are the church scooping up the lonely Tim?
Tim:I mean, I hope so, because it's a better place for'em to be than behind a computer monitor. I mean, right. To be honest. Anything that gets you in touch with supportive people who listen, who have conversation, who at a college, hey, things can get better for you. Mm-hmm. You can do these things. You can follow this path. I mean. It is, it's, it's better than being reclusive. And, and we see from this Luigi story what happens when you become reclusive and nobody rescues you. Yeah. You know, and it's funny because I've been doing this leading with kindness, uh, workshop, uh, during disruptive times, leading with kindness in disruptive times. And I actually talked to leaders. I'm like, who can you trust to rescue you? Because we already know there's a huge amount of loneliness that comes with leading.
Yoyo:And after Covid. Mm-hmm.
Tim:And after Covid, and now you're leading through hard times, layoffs, you know, hard decisions, policy changes, uncertain times, economically, tariffs, like the whole thing. Like it's just bombarding us who will rescue you, you know? And I used to ask during Covid like, Hey, so here's the thing, if. My family looks up to me because I'm a security leader. I'm the protector. I'm the one that has the answers. I'm the one that can be relied on in times of trouble, and then my friends think the same thing of me. Who can I lean on when I'm everybody else's strength? And, and we really need to start asking ourselves these questions. And there are people out there who have the strength, who have the ability to let people lean on them, and we just need to look for opportunities to offer it.
Yoyo:So let me support your argument, with one more fact. I basically looked at social media trends in 2025 compared to 2024 to see what the other global shift is. In 2025, social media trends are shifting towards clearly authenticity, engagement. AI driven strategies. Now that's interesting compared to 2024 where AI generated content and algorithm optimization were prominent. Audiences increasingly now value real conversations and relatable content leading to a rise in user generated content and a focus on building online communities. Now, let's go back to the Gen Z joining church. The motivations, the reasons cited for this resurgence include a desire for community. Meaning and a sense of connection. There's a lot of commonality there. Maybe social media's given it its best, but people are still sitting back thinking, I need more than this. I need to reengage with the community.
Tim:There's another driver, um, that's less reported on, but it is, it is impactful, especially for security professionals. You know, over the last half a decade through Covid, you know, there was a big societal thing to be like, well, you know, you have your truth, I have my truth. Nothing is really objectively true, like whatever you think. And I think we've seen that completely fail. Um, so now people are looking for truth, something that's tangible that they can hold onto and say like, okay, I can rely on this because. The world is so disrupted. They're looking for solid ground to stand on. Yeah, and so this is driving church attendance. This is driving like these things that we've been talking about, but if you really evaluate the business you're in as a security executive security leader. You say, you know what? Here's what's true here and here's how we can build on that to create more stability, to give people more things that are not easily changed to grab onto. We can build that and we can say, Hey, we can secure that and we can create a firm foundation for this company to rebuild this culture and employee engagement. Um, and you know, I know most people in security don't think this way like I do, but it's all I'm being asked to talk about this year. It is so important.
Yoyo:So, Tim, most of most people who know you and me, uh, know that we're quite prominent on LinkedIn. Yep. Are quite well known. But let me tell you this, and to everybody who's listening, this is really key right now, and let this be the center of all of your social media engagement as security professionals. This is being reported by Sprout Social. They basically said social media went through a monumental shift in 2024, AI generated content flooded feeds. Engagement became harder to earn, and algorithms started favoring interactions over reach in 2025. The shift will be bigger. Audiences will demand. More authenticity. So if you're posting, it's gotta be authentic, it's gotta be unique. Don't over AI it. We can all tell when you've done that. Uh, and also remember that algorithms and a lot of people said LinkedIn has changed, has look at those interactions that you're having rather than the actual reach of followers. That's a good bit of advice, isn't it, for going forward.
Tim:It's huge. It's huge because again, you know, if you're active on LinkedIn, you're trying to lead that way. I. People are disrupted, so they're less likely to react and comment and like put their signature on something that they agree with because like, what are other people gonna think in this? You know, it's funny because at the beginning of Covid it was like this and then it ramped up. Like people were really supporting stuff and now it's kind of receding a little bit, but the impressions are through the roof. Right? And, and so, and, and you know, the interesting thing is, um, at the end of the year in September, um. I'm gonna be in Brazil doing a keynote. Nice. And they asked for me to do the insecurity, insecurity, uh, which I did IPSB last year. And I left a room of 500 EP people. Half of them were in tears at the end of it.
Yoyo:Wow.
Tim:It was so impactful, and I've had people reaching out to me ever since. Telling me stories of like contemplating suicide, telling me like stories about how much this helped them understand the role of fear in their relationships and in the security industry and the toxicity of organizations. And the reason they were crying is just I was telling stories about things that I've experienced, other people's experience that they knew, like they have been there. They have felt that pain, they felt that frustration. Um. The interesting thing is, is when I got invited, I was like, heck yeah, I'll go to Sao Paulo, man, this is gonna be amazing, right? And the guy that was invited me, he's like, Tim, you might be surprised at how many people down here are following the kindness games. He said, it's a lot. It's talked about a lot. And I don't have very many people from that region of the world that do any of the reacting or commenting. I know several people down there, but. He was telling me that there's a lot of people following the kindness games, which is also kind of shocking because you think stereotypically Latin America, it's very like bravado, you know, macho driven, like these types of things. And we found out early in Covid that the Type A people were rejecting the leading with kindness philosophy. They're like, Nope, not for me. They came back around and now you know the, the North American security industry is very much on this wavelength. But Lee and I were in Panama last year and we did an amazing talk and we had a lot of engagement. It was voted one of the top, um, top talks at that WIS uh, LATAM conference.
Yoyo:Yeah.
Tim:And now I. South America, wis,
Yoyo:wi Wisping. Women Insecurity. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Remember this is not just a podcast limited to the United States. Tim, you acronym you don't have women insecurity in, in, in the uk.
Tim:We,
Yoyo:we don't call it wisp.
Tim:I feel like, I feel like you're part of it.
Yoyo:I am. But we don't call it wisp, we call it women insecurity. Uh, maybe. We'll, maybe, yeah. Maybe we're not so smart as y'all and maybe we have to spell it out. I know, but, Listen, you're a huge fan of podcasts. I have to say. While we're talking about authenticity, we're talking about kindness, connecting community. It's worth mentioning that globally Podcast listenership has had a 6.83% year over year rise. All right? It's here to stay, and I can see why that increase. What, from 135 million podcast listeners. What's also exciting is as of 2025. 5% of the 12 plus age population in the US are monthly podcast listeners. They're caught. We've just gotta hope they're caught into healthy podcast communities. Right.
Tim:You know, and again, it's the distrust with legacy sources. Um, most of us realize that the media's not telling us the truth or at least the whole story they're holding back. Yeah. On an angle, big time, um, connection. I want to know people, and people are telling their stories in a very. Vulnerable way oftentimes. Yeah. Um, which is actually when you see someone tell their story and they struggle to tell it because it's a struggle for them. That's, that's therapeutic for other people. Um, people really engage with that and they feel better knowing that somebody else is also going through that, uh, and then truth. Right? So people are not on there, you know, just saying like, what's being said. They're telling their story, they're telling their perspective on things. And you know, if, if you decide that, that, uh, you don't agree with the direction that they're going, you don't have to watch it. It's not being shoved down your throat. Uh, so it does create that community. It does give you a connection with people. Um, and I, I think the content coming outta podcasts is considered more true and reliable, uh, than, I mean, just, yeah.
Yoyo:Podcasts are here to say. I, you know, I think you're right. Look, um, we've covered an awful lot. We've covered almost sociology. Uh, 2025, Tim. That's
Tim:how I roll.
Yoyo:Right. Uh, and it's really nice to start off with one subject, which was obviously Brian Thompson and respect and sympathies go out to his, his wife and family because nobody expects to go to work and never come home.
Tim:Yeah.
Yoyo:And it, and what shocked me the most is that it wasn't even outside his workplace, it was outside a hotel. There was a big
Tim:healthcare conference at that hotel.
Yoyo:Oh wow. So could taken his take that he was headlining.
Tim:Yeah.
Yoyo:Okay.
Tim:So it was very well known he was going to be there.
Yoyo:Well publicized. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So there's the risk then. So we've gotta think, haven't we, as security professionals, you know, how we allow our top people to go out when they're facing threats? Yeah,
Tim:absolutely.
Yoyo:Well, if anybody needs any more information, don't hesitate to reach out to Tim Wenzel. I'm sure you've got room for a few more followers, Tim.
Tim:There's always room for other people, man. You know, we're just here to, uh, bring people together and, uh, give them a supportive community. No matter if you're in security. If you're not in security, it doesn't matter. Uh, you know, I'm looking to elevate those around me and, and, and, you know, bring people together. That's, that's what we need. And even in security. You know, that zero sum mentality has been a plague on us. Like, ooh, like there's competition for the job, there's competition for us. Um, the most, and I know some very, very successful security people, executives, you know, leaders of companies, the most successful security leaders do not even entertain the concept of competition. No, they already know I cannot serve all the clients. I cannot produce all the products. I cannot fulfill all the niches. I cannot satisfy everyone. There's room for everyone. Why don't we all get together and help each other out if I can help you be successful today. You will help me be successful tomorrow. Uh, and, and when people see, uh, you and Kahan and me and Lee rolling around at the GSX and the ISU West with like big crowds of people around us, I. It's not because like, well, I mean, you're super smart. I'm not not that smart, but Well, thanks, cheers. Also, the good looking thing. I mean, you've got that me. Yeah. I try to cover my face with the beard. Yes. You know, so I mean, but, but it's not that. It's because we are actually pulling people in and saying like, how can we help? How can we elevate us all? Because that's what life is about. It's about getting a great group of people around you and doing life together.
Yoyo:And for those that aren't listening, you can't see what, I can see that Tim has a pair of skis in the background. Do you ever use those, Tim, or are they just there for show, like, to make it look like you really do have an exciting skiing life outside of work?
Tim:You know, before Covid I used to use them a lot. I lived in California 15, 20 days a year at Tahoe. Now I live in the Chicago area, so that's a flight away to get to a good mountain. So they're, they're more of an aspiration these days than a reality. But this year. Um, I just let my ski pass renew and my wife says, you haven't used it in the last two years. I'm like, well, I'm gonna book the trips now, so
Yoyo:listen, if I can join a netball club. After 35 years since playing in school, you can go and ski.
Tim:I love skiing. I'm gonna do some TKG videos from the slopes. This coming winter. It's gonna be amazing. I
Yoyo:think. I think you should. And more authentic, you know, original content coming your way from Tim Wenzel and obviously Tim, when this case does, land and it's open for more discussion. Come back. Let's summarize what we learn throughout the, proceedings for court. Will
Tim:that make me your first threepeat?
Yoyo:Sorry. Oh, repeat, uh, Gino. I think you could be, you know, he's up for grabs in it.
Tim:I'm just saying, I'm just saying I've got some podcast where I am already the most returned guest. I think I'm just trying to do that with everybody's podcast, like, you know, just like we loved him.
Yoyo:I can see why. I can see why. And Tim, seriously, thank you so much for coming along. I know we don't know everything now, but we, enough covered a lot of associative subjects and I think they were all very relevant to the very modern security issues of today, aren't they?
Tim:Yep.
Yoyo:Thank you so much for coming back to the Security Circle podcast, Tim.
Tim:Thanks for having me.