EP 132 Nicky Perfect: International Hostage & Crisis Negotiator, "How One Conversation Can Change Everything"

Nicky is an international hostage and crisis negotiator turned world renowned trainer and speaker.

She spent 31 years as a Metropolitan police officer and the last 10 of those years as an international hostage and crisis negotiator.

Nicky worked on the elite New Scotland Yard Hostage and Crisis Negotiation Unit. She has travelled the world teaching negotiation and working with Her Majesty's Government on international operations and had the privilege of talking to hundreds of people in crisis. 

Nicky spent many years as the Director of UK Training of the National Hostage and Crisis Negotiation Course. She was the first female to be posted to this role and became responsible for designing and training police officers across the UK to deal with life and death situations from suicide intervention to crime in action (kidnaps)

On retiring from the police Nicky purchased her local garage, converted the car showroom into a coffee shop and gym keeping the garage workshop, creating a community hub. 

She has her own consultancy/training business specialising in communication and negotiation.

Over the years Nicky learned the skills to create a system of building trust quickly in very difficult circumstances.

Her mission is to share those lessons she learnt as a negotiator to help others improve their communication /negotiation skills and ultimately their relationships in life and work. She has worked with large organisations including Unilever, Johnson & Johnson, Smith – Nephew, NHS, Police Now, educational establishments including College of Policing, Brunel University and Southampton University and other organisations including working with Head Teachers associations and speaking at GP conferences.

In the 2022 Queen’s New Year’s Honours List, she was awarded the British Empire Medal for “meritorious service to the community during the pandemic”.

She is the author of “Crisis – true stories from my life as a hostage negotiator” published by HQ HarperCollins and a best seller on Amazon and has appeared on radio and TV as an expert in negotiation and communication including BBC Radio 4s Woman’s Hour, BBC Radio 3 Counties, Crimewatch, Good Housekeeping, Woman’s Own, Daily Mail, 

Nicky lives with her partner, step daughter, 8 goats and 4 dogs. In her own words “life is never boring”. 

Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

0:01

If you enjoy the security circle podcast, please like share and comment or even better. Leave us a fab review. We can be found on all podcast platforms. Be sure to subscribe. The security circle every Thursday. We love Thursdays. Hi, I'm Yolanda And welcome to the Security Circle Podcast, produced in association with ifpo, the International Foundation for Protection Officers. This podcast is all about connection, bringing you closer to the greatest minds, boldest thinkers, trailblazers, and change makers across the security industry. Whether you are here to grow your network, spark new ideas, or simply feel more connected to the world of protection and risk, you are in the right place wherever you are listening from. Thank you for being a part of the Security Circle journey. Your company today means everything.

Yoyo: 1:17

I have with me an amazing guest for you to listen to today. Her name is Nikki. Perfect. She is a hostage and crisis negotiator, turned international trainer, and we're gonna hear all about her career, her book, how to Do a Ted Speech, and here she is. Nikki, welcome to the Security Circle podcast. How you doing? I'm really good. Thank you so much for having me here today. No, it's a real pleasure. I kind of got a perception, tell me if I'm wrong, that there aren't a lot of women that do what you do. Certainly at the time you would've entered into hostage negotiation.

Nicky: 1:53

before I became a negotiator, I was actually on a firearms unit and I was one of seven women out of 650 people. So that was a real. Minority of women. And when I became a negotiator, I would say probably when I think about my class and doing all the training that we did over the next sort of 10 years, it was about 10% of those classes were women and started to increase slightly as we moved forward. And then when I joined the full-time unit, I was one of six, so I was, uh, the only woman of a team of six. Yeah. Wow.

Yoyo: 2:30

I'm also ex-police. Uh, we discussed this and, and I know from my experience that getting into firearms, whatever gender you are, is a pretty tough, uh, calling. You know, you are expected to perform an incredibly unique role that's very unique across police forces and. A certain level of, prerequisites are needed, you know, patients, number one, uh, following instructions and keeping fit and, you know, being able to stay alert for long periods of time. It's not the kind of glamorous job you think, is it

Nicky: 3:02

I think you probably just nailed it there. Um, that's also, it sounds very similar to being a hostage and crisis negotiator where people think that that's really glamorous and a lot of the time it's about patience and resilience and just being with somebody and yeah, and holding a nerve sometimes I think is, is relevant in both. And even though I found firearms really tough, I'll be completely honest with you, it was one of the toughest moments of my career. I was an inspector at the time. I was a new in-service inspector and I went to the firearms unit quite quickly. I was also an outsider in inverted comm in that I wasn't promoted in-house. I didn't have any firearms experience before I went straight in. And I, um, have since been told that I was probably the first woman in the UK that that had ever happened to, that I went straight into 24 hour. Firearms policing as a female external candidate, as an inspector. Yeah. So that's just, wow.

Yoyo: 4:01

So I've gotta ask how, how did

Nicky: 4:03

you make that happen? How did I make that happen? Yeah, that's another interesting question. I was at a crossroads. I think most people can relate to this. At some stage in life, you get to a crossroads. I'd been a police officer for nearly 20 years. I'd done the majority of my policing in uniform. I. I loved being a police officer. I'd worked in South London. I was working a really busy area of South London, so I, as an inspector, I was responsible for Suffolk, Peckham, and Woolworth, which were incredible places to work. And we worked a lot with the firearms units. I had a couple of friends who were some of the first female s fos specialist, firearms officers. And uh, I decided that I wanted a new challenge, something I'd never done before. I've always been quite into my physical fitness and I was like, right, well, that this is something completely new. Let's do it. Let's see how far we can go. And I was successful and managed to get onto the unit.

Yoyo: 4:59

You know how reassuring and comforting it would've been for any woman, SFO to be under your command as a woman leader? Oh, I, I hadn't thought about that before that. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Because not only would she know of the plight and struggles you would've had to have gotten there. You would identify and relate to her own individual ones to get into the firearms unit to begin with even when I was in the job, and look, I left the police. It's getting on a bit now, Nikki, I think it's 17 years ago this year. 17 years ago. My god., We knew that in the execution of doing your job, firearms officers would ultimately render themselves kind of unworkable for a short period of time by being suspended from duties or at least being suspended from the job that they're doing pending an investigation. We always had a lot of respect for them because we knew. That was the consequence of them having to fire. Are we seeing that? Does that still happen? Is that part of the kind of, um, sort of segregation of duties in the sense of that's the way to keep it ethical and correct? And are there still a lot of restrictions around mental health for, um, those officers working in firearms to make sure that they're always mentally fit as well as physically fit?

Nicky: 6:17

First of all, I have to say, I haven't been a firearms officer for a while. My understanding is this. Yes, it, it is absolutely still the same. The standards are still, I don't think people realize how high the standards are for a firearms officer in this country. You're not just giving your, you don't just do your basic training and then have a firearm. You have to reclassify every five weeks. So you have to go back to training. You are retested. Um, if you fail, you have your firearms taken off. You, you carry a blue ticket, and at any stage that can be taken off you. If for example, your, um, supervisor may think that you are going for a family breakup and you're not managing particularly well, then they would take your blue ticket off you. It's really strict and really stringent in this country. The training is phenomenal. You are put through your paces and you are tested, and having been through all of that training, when I, when somebody has fired a bullet, you know that that investigation will take time. Completely, rightly so.'cause there are many questions to be answered and asked. But you also know that the officer that fired that gun will have gone through that training and they'll be trained to the highest standard possible and there will be a reason that they have fired that gun. So yeah, it's like in the states, and I didn't know this and I think it's still the same, but all of their officers are firearms trained and they don't have the capability to put them through. Uh, an assessment every five weeks. So it's, it's like, here's your gun off you go. You, it's down to you to practice and train.

Yoyo: 7:54

That's pretty scary when you think, but also, I think as civilians, we can trust the process and you'll be aware, we had an incident in Milton Kings and I live in Milton Kings, and so I knew the area very, very well. I used to frequent that area on a regular basis and somebody put on Facebook, you know, oh great. You know, I feel less. Safe here than ever. And I'm like, don't you feel safer? The fact that they got there so fast, the fact that they eliminated the threat, which is what they're supposed to do, the fact that no members of the public were at any point involved in that incident, that should make you feel safer because that's how I've interpreted it and I get it. I know a little bit more than, than most general public, I suppose. Uh, but I bow to your knowledge. I think we should be thinking differently, shouldn't we?'cause times are

Nicky: 8:42

changing. I. Definitely when I joined policing, first of all, uh, it was an era where we weren't allowed to wear trousers, so this is how far back we're going. So I joined policing in 88, weren't allowed to wear trousers at a tiny little trunk about this big that fitted in my handbag. Um, so when I say this big, no, no longer than if you, if you take your elbow to the tip of your fingers no longer than your elbow to the tip of your fingers, so, so tiny. But, but crime was slightly different. It was more about armed robberies. It was more about burglaries and car theft. And so we didn't need the amount of firearms then that we needed now. So for example, if there was a firearms instant, I. Then the firearms trained officers would go back to the local police station, unlock the cabinet, sign out their gun, get their gun, then go to the incident, and uh, there was like one firearms car that covered the whole of London. But that's changed because crime has changed because there are now more weapons on the street. And so there are now. More firearms officers on the street. Yeah. And it does change. I remember one old armed robber. I was sitting in the back of the van, uh, with him taking him back to the police station. He said to me, he said, oh, these, these youngsters that are getting into crime now, you know, it's all changing in my day. We'd never hit a woman. We'd respect the police. And so even from their perspective, I know even from their perspective, crime had changed and people doing the crime had changed. So it's fascinating, isn't it, about, you know, we talk about values and beliefs and how powerful they are, and especially in the world of negotiation. Um. Because they're what you're listening for and that's what you're tapping into. But yeah, even in, in the world of criminality, there are a set of rules and standards for different

Yoyo: 10:29

people. Yeah, especially in prisons as well.'cause my understanding is, you know, if you've, and I understood this from another guest that we had on the podcast, you know, a fraud expert because he committed a lot of fraud and got banged up for it. Smashing bloke out, doing a lot of work with banks now in the greatest sense of the word. But he is got this amazing story and uh, and he said, you know, because he was a theoretical, you know, a white collar crime guy, he wasn't seen as a threat, you know, he was. He was training other criminals how to be, you know, better at certain things that he had, skills that they wanted. Not necessarily criminal skills either, but he talked about this hierarchy and you know, if you beat up women and if you are, if you're a pedophile, you're the worst type of criminal. And there's this code, which is phenomenal. Last question around firearms. I'd love to to know quite pragmatically actually, what you did offer. As a female firearms inspector, something that you feel you added value to that maybe something you take as as, as a personal contribution, what you could offer that was very unique and individual to that role being a woman.

Nicky: 11:37

Mm. At the time, if you'd have asked me that at the time, I would've gone, oh, I don't know. Sure I've offered anything. But when you reflect, and it was interesting because on the International Women's Day this year, I was contacted by, um, an officer from the firearms unit who works on it now to be a part of a piece that they were putting together for International Women's Day. And, and, and she said, I don't know if you know this, but you're an inspiration. And I was like, oh gosh. Really, I, I just had, it hadn't even crossed my mind, but when I reflect on the women in policing that were inspiring to me, and one of them said this to me, she said, always leave the ladder down. And that stuck with me wherever I go.'cause I think that's such a powerful statement. Always leave the ladder down. And so becoming one of the first Trojan ones as an inspector on the armed response vehicle, I think that, um, I hope it paved the way for other people, for other people to go, oh, I know Nick. You know, she's, she, I get Nick that and she's done it. So actually I wonder if I could do that. I think I might give it a go. That's what I hope. And that's not just in firearms. I hope that is something that, um, has followed me throughout my career and still does.

Yoyo: 12:57

It's quite disturbing when we think back to those times where, it wasn't really the done thing to put a woman in charge of a firearm, both in the military and in the police service. And there was this, awfully horrible patriarchal and misogynist impression that maybe because we have emotions we're not suitable for that type of task, but women are equally as important. Women are equally as able to use their emotions in the right way, and I can see why being in both roles and being able to manage emotions has been a very critical part of your career, hasn't it?

Nicky: 13:36

Yeah, definitely. And uh, I can assure you I'm an a very emotional being. So, yeah. So, you know, I'm a woman of a certain age and, uh, I have certain emotions that run through my body sometimes uncontrollably. Yes, it's been interesting around how, how you can manage your emotions and also how sometimes I think. I'm just, I'm, I'm just thinking. When I became a negotiator, actually having been a firearms officer stood me in really good stead because I knew both worlds. So I was able to have conversations with both negotiators, firearms teams, and the person who was overall in command of that instant and be able to listen to both perspectives and that I'm really grateful for that because I hadn't realized at the time. Because I'd found firearms so challenging. I hadn't realized at the time how that was then gonna play out in the rest of my career. So when we went to instance and training, I would know the firearms teams and I would be able to go over and have a conversation with them. And we, we had rapport and we had trust already. So we could make decisions together and I'd say, this is what I'm thinking. They'd say, this is what I'm thinking. Now, sometimes when you have, um. Different people in those roles where they don't know and there's a miscommunication or a misunderstanding, then ego can come into play. And when ego comes into play, we get that resistance and we get that pushback and we get that, no, no, this is the right way. No, this is the right way. And say you are unable to have that collaboration and move forward. Now, I'm not saying it's always men. I was just literally then trying to think were there any females. Involved in that at that particular time, no, probably because there were less females in the role and it certainly wasn't the majority of the men. It was just a couple. So yeah, and I, and I think as women, we have a way that we can step out of the emotion helicopter above it and go, right, I actually, I recognize I'm feeling like this and if I'm feeling like this, perhaps I need to do this to regulate that. So I can make better informed decisions. Yeah. And also we, I, I think still, and I've got a lot of male friends and we have this discussion a lot. I think still women are much better at expressing how they're genuinely feeling than men are. Honestly, I've had the privilege of working with some amazing negotiators, they, both male and female and, and watching them at work and watching how they, um, have taught people that. Out of jumping off buildings, how they've got people to release hostages. It's just been, it's been a real privilege to work with such fascinating people. I.

Yoyo: 16:21

After chatting to Matt Todd, I learned that there are two very different tranches of negotiation here. I remember even when I was in the police and I left in 2009, the police were becoming more and more reliant on supporting people through mental health crises and. And even then I started thinking, you know, just because we have the emergency services now, fire, ambulance, you know, police, that doesn't mean to say the way we deliver emergency support now could be re rethought. We definitely need some type of mental health emergency services. Um, because that would take a lot of pressure off the ambulance. It would take a lot of pressure off policing. It would take a lot of pressure, but its infrastructure, it's, it would take a lot of initiative. It would take a lot of goodwill to make something like that happen. But how much of hostage negotiation, or how much of your role as a hostage negotiator was about supporting genuinely bad mental health crises?

Nicky: 17:20

Yeah, I would say probably. 80%. So 80% of my time is probably involved in crisis negotiation. Talking to people who are like, making really tough decisions on that particular day. Then probably about another, the, uh, 15% I have to do my math. Now here I watch this. So 15%, um, dealing with, uh, kidnaps. So, uh, maybe a bit more actually than 15%. Um,'cause in London there was a lot of kidnap a week. Mainly gang on gang. Um, so, so we had quite a lot of kidnaps going on and then fi 5%, probably even less than 5% of that dealing with international operations of some sort where somebody would either been kidnapped. Abroad or they'd been caught up in an incident. So, yeah. So yeah, that's probably about, about right, the day to day crisis intervention.

Yoyo: 18:17

Tell us a story about gang on gang kidnapping.'cause I'm sure a lot hard of us, uh, won't really necessarily have a lot of knowledge or even understanding as to what's going on in that world for that to happen and what the causes and motivations are behind that take. Tell us a story on how you were involved in something like that.

Nicky: 18:35

Okay, let me, uh, let me tell you about Ashley. So Ashley was the brother of, let's call him Sam. So, um, Ashley is the brother of Sam. Uh, Sam is a young man who has, uh, been pretty good all of his life, but he's just gone off the rails. In the last few months, he started to run drugs for a gang on one of the estates, quick and easy money. And, he was enjoying that sort of attention and enjoying the fact that he had money in his pocket. Um, Ashley was a professional guy, actually. He was a chef. He was very proud of being a chef, and he'd been in trouble a couple of times himself, nothing particularly serious, but he could see that what was happening to Sam and that Sam was going off the rails. Now, I learned all of this afterwards'cause when I initially met Ashley, he was incredibly angry. He was very angry at life in general. His brother had been kidnapped and he'd got a demand to pay a large ransom. Now the thing about, Ashley was that he didn't really like police and he didn't really trust them. So as soon as he met me, he didn't think that I'd be able to help him. And, uh, he had to find a way to deal with the kidnappers. Now, when you, um, just a normal person living your day-to-day life and you suddenly get a phone call out of the blue to say, oh, by the way, I've got your brother and he needs to pay me this amount of money. That's a terrifying thing to have to deal with. Terrifying. And I wouldn't wish that on anybody. The amount of stress, the amount of pain, the uncertainty, the fear, all of those emotions that you go through when you receive a call like that. And of course I was getting the brunt of all of those emotions because of what was happening. To cut a long story short, Sam had decided to steal the money from the gang leader. And because, because even in the world of gangs. There's this whole thing about saving face. You have to be strong'cause you are, you are leading a gang and there are people all around you who wanna take over without a shadow of a doubt. So if you show weakness or signs of weakness, then there'll be somebody in the wings that will go, oh, hang on a sec, I'm watching and monitoring that. So when somebody, uh, does something wrong. Like steals your money and then other people hear about it. There has to be a consequence. And generally the consequence is I'm gonna get my money back somehow. So yeah. So that was, that's, that is a typical example of gang on gang. It's normally drugs related. It's normally about debt and it's normally about saving face in my experience.

Yoyo: 21:16

So how did you get Ashley to listen

Nicky: 21:19

to you? Top secret hostage negotiation tip for you listening to this podcast? I listened to him. Yeah, that's, that's literally all I did is I listened to him. I didn't take anything personally. I didn't try and push back. I was honest with him, around the things that I couldn't, that I couldn't do, and I was honest with him around the things that I would be able to tell him and the things that I wouldn't be able to tell him. And gradually over time, we were able to work together. Yeah. But it all stems from listening. Like all good negotiation does stems from the power of listening. I call it a superpower.

Yoyo: 22:02

I think it is. And even though I said to Tom, I kind of embarrassing myself a bit really, because I said, I think I'm quite a good listener, you know, I think you have to be to do the podcast. But then he kind of said, you know, you've gotta know what you're listening for. And so I actually, I remember that I've literally applied that into everything because I, I know a lot of people listen to talk, but also I think people in crisis need to talk. They desperately need to talk. How do you deal with somebody who initially. Is nonresponsive and doesn't want to talk. Maybe somebody who's even quite intelligent, very self-aware, knows that your intention is to come there'cause they're the hardest people. I think to even help the ones that are genuinely very bright and know what your intentions are, how do you deal with that?

Nicky: 22:48

Yeah. And that's interesting'cause I, I know Matt from old I've worked with Matt and he's absolutely right. Generally, we listen at a superficial level and we're not really listening for what motivates the other person and, and what their values and what their beliefs are and how to build those relationships really quickly. When you have somebody who doesn't talk to you. So for example, if you have somebody who you get, you get a call by a member of the public. And I can give you an example of this. So we got a call to a young girl up a, a tree who's got, um, a noose around her neck. Now, she didn't call us, so she doesn't, she won't want to talk to us. Uh, a pass by who had seen her there called us. I've gotta be honest with you, I made no headway in this at all. Which, which is, which is interesting. And it was a huge learning. I. Went from me. So I'm standing there. I'm quite new to negotiation. It's a summer's night and I remember clearly it was a summer's night and this is probably my second or third negotiation that I was involved in. I'm looking up the tree. She's quite a long way up. Uh, so much though that, you know, my head is til, is tilted right back. It's not anywhere in eye level. I have to tilt my head back to be able to talk to her. And I remember that clearly because I walked away from that and the next morning had neck ache. Uh, it's interesting, isn't it, the things that you remember from these powerful conversations. I was talking to her and I was really self-conscious. I was really self-aware of other people around me, other people listening to me, other people, offering opinion. I dunno about you, but I do find in life that as a human being, and I include myself in this, we do like to give our opinion even if it hasn't been asked for, and sometimes it's not. It's not the most welcome thing. I have an opinion on everything. Parenting is a, is a classic. We really like to give an opinion on parenting

Yoyo: 24:36

I wanna come in, I wanna come in with this interject'cause am does this really good sketch with, um, uh, Persian mothers where he says, you know, you can't even peel an orange without all the mothers going. No, you don't wanna peel it like that. You wanna be, you know, Yeah.

Nicky: 24:49

Yeah. So, um, and I remember a young officer coming up to me, I. And saying, do you want me to have a go? Do you, do you, do you want me to have a go? And I was like, mortified. I was like, no, it's okay. There is a system and a strategy in place. Clearly I'm not getting that system and a strategy off pat at the moment. And then I was joined by a much, more experienced negotiator. I'm gonna call him. Bernie for today. So Bernie arrived and he's giving me some advice, like, we're talking together, and I knew him from my training days. I'd worked with him a bit, so I trusted him completely and he said, Nick, do you, you know, do you want me to have a go? I'd been there for a good two and a half, three hours, and I wasn't making any headway at all. I learned something really powerful in what he did. It was like, it was like watching magic happen. He literally looked at her and he said, you're probably looking at me and thinking on earth. Has a 40-year-old man with a big beard got in common with a 16-year-old girl who's having a really difficult time in her life at the moment. And I'm thinking you are probably feeling that because my son's 16 and he often tells me that. And she looks straight at him. She looks straight at him. And in that moment I knew. We were gonna have a conversation with her and that, uh, that Bernie was gonna be able to get her down. And I learned a lot. I learned about. Stopping thinking that everything revolves around you.'cause nobody's actually interested in what you look like, Nick.'cause they're all worried about what, what's going on in their own heads. And to think about what that person that you are speaking to is going through in that moment. And it's such a logical thing to do. It's so powerful and I use it with my 18-year-old now and have been for, I'm a stepmom, so I'm, Meg came into my life when she was six and I was in my forties actually just learning negotiation. And I use it a lot with her, um, rather than this. Oh, yeah, I understand how you feel. It's far more powerful just to reframe things in the perspective of the o of the other person. And as a leader, you can do it with your teams as a business owner, you can do it with your customers. You know, when they come in and they make a complaint about something. And if you just stop and read through the email or just listen to what they're saying, and then you can reframe it going, do you know what, this is what I think is happening for you. And they'll tell you if you get it wrong. But what it does is it values and validates the other person in such a powerful way, and it's such a human connection level. So instead of those safe tip of the iceberg conversations that we have every day, like, Hey, how are you? You know, the superficial ones, we start to look at what's really going on. Yeah, yeah. She probably was looking at him thinking, well, how are you two gonna help me? You've got no idea what my life is like. But now I can see that you are trying to see the world from my perspective, really powerful. Such a powerful message. I'm so, you know, as I said before, I've worked with some amazing people, learned so many lessons.

Yoyo: 27:59

I wish I'd had you as an inspector when I was in the police. I did have a woman sergeant who was known and notorious, for being rather mean and nasty to be honest with you, and I am what you call a very kind of, you know, happy go lucky, bubbly, purposefully intended. Person that goes through life. And when the inspector walked through the room, he kind of said, Hey, how's things going? All I went, yes, sir. I said, it's been a very busy day. You know, we've been in and out. And I just came up with this kind of like, this is what's genuinely going on. And when he left the room, she said, he doesn't really wanna know about your day. Just say, yes sir. Fine. Thanks, sir. That's how mean she was. You know, like. And she was the one we're talking about role models here. She was the one when I said to her, you know, sort of, I don't know, 11 months in, I said we should have some kind of like stats in the crew room so we can see who's catching the most drug, criminals, who's the most burglaries, you know where I'm going with this, right? The most, you know, offenses against the people. And she's like, you know, you're not in your, your old career now. PC Hamblen, get in your car. Go and do your job like this. And I was like, all right, fine. Tail between my legs and within months we had national KPIs for burglaries, robberies, crimes, and drugs. If she was a decent person, she would've come to me and she'd have said, you know what? I was wrong. I shut you down. I shouldn't have done what you actually had was a great idea. It was she a degree of foresight. Which I had underestimated and it was my bad, but she never did. So that the whole time and she was quite mean. And I learned lessons from that. I learned that it is important, especially with young people. We're talking about leaving the ladder down. She's given me a perspective. Yes. Uh, it's one that I learned from, but it could have been so much better.

Nicky: 29:51

Mm-hmm.

Yoyo: 29:51

What sort of things did you learn as well as a hostage negotiator?

Nicky: 29:56

I'm not sure we've got time to give you all the things I learned, but I I'm just gonna go back to what you just said there because that sounds to me like you didn't feel valued and validated. Not so. No. You were never gonna trust her. So if something had happened at work where you needed to speak to her about that or something was happening in your life, you, you never gonna have that relationship just by that one conversation. That, and that's how powerful. Conversation and communication is, and we don't realize it. Um, you see, I believe that, and especially this is one of the biggest things I've learned. I believe that in every conversation that we have, there is an opportunity to even make a difference in your life or the life of the other person. Yeah. But we have to be present to be able to do that. And most of the time we're not, because most of the time we're so busy. We've got our own internal dialogue. We've got things that are happening everywhere, especially at work. If you are under pressure constantly to get things done, it's hard to be present with somebody and it's hard to be able to listen to what's really happening for them. And that's why we listen at that superficial kind of passive way. And reflecting on your question, having bought myself a bit of time there, just to get my brain to think about it. What, you know, what did I learn as a crisis negotiators? So one of the, one of the things I learned is we all have a story, every single one of us, and that you cannot judge people by, by what they look like or what's happening to them on that particular day. I've learned a couple of phrases since leaving policing, which have, uh, which I hold true now. One is., Connection before direction. So if you are a leader, connect with people before you direct them. Far more likely to come on board with you. And the other one, if you're working with young people especially, is connection before correction.'cause again, if you deal with the emotion and what's happening there, we get that connection and then we can deal with the behavior and ask them to behave in a different way. And it's far more powerful and it works better than going, oh, don't do that. Do this kind of thing, you know, or, or having change. Change is happening tomorrow and off we go. And then we wonder why we get all this resistance that that comes back. So everybody has a story and depending on where they are in their story will depend on what happens when you meet them. So for a simple example of this could be road rage. You're driving along and somebody cuts you up and your immediate response is bang. You start to swear or flashy lights, whatever it might be, and they might be on the way to the hospital to see somebody. They might have just had the worst morning. They might have just been sacked from their job. We don't know. Now, I'm not saying of course, that that's always the case, but sometimes it is, and sometimes the behavior we see as a direct result of what's going on in their life. So that, that's number one. Number two is that we'll all have a crisis in our life at some stage, sadly. And that crisis will generally come from a loss or a perceived loss of something, uh, which could be, as I know you're a cat lover, so you know, if you lose your cat, if your cat hasn't come home for a couple of days, that can be. Quite worrying. I've got four dogs. I'm a dog lover, and you know, if I, I lose one of those, it's a huge loss in my life and will affect the way that I communicate and behave for a period of time. It can be as simple as losing your keys when you wanna be somewhere really important and suddenly, I, I don't know about you, but I, when I lose my keys, it's always at a time when. I need to be somewhere fairly important. And so I get a bit stressed about it. I start shouting at people, you know, who, where, where, where are my, your keys? Who's seen my keys? And nobody will respond. And then I'll be like, you know, blame, uh, who has moved my keys thinking that someone is sabotaging my life coming in, moving my keys from where they should be, you know? And so we change our behavior and the way that we communicate when we're driven by fear. Fear of a loss, or when we are in some sort of crisis. And then the third one is, sadly, loneliness is one of the biggest killers in the uk, if not the world. And it doesn't just mean, um, you know, being on your own because you don't have to be lonely living on your own. You can be, and you can live with a hundred people and still feel alone. It's how we operate when we are feeling that loneliness, when we're getting caught up in that challenge or that crisis that's happening for us and around our support network if we have people that we can talk to or if we're just trying to internalize it all the time. So they're the three most powerful lessons that I learned as a negotiator, um, as well as all the, you know, patience, resilience. Kindness and respect go a really long way in life, even if you don't like the other person. And I've negotiated with many people that where our values and our beliefs didn't match. And I have found in life that if you treat people with kindness and respect, it goes a long way to getting them to collaborate with you.

Yoyo: 34:52

The statistics coming out around. Being kind to somebody and massively triggers their endorphins. And, you know, it's just, it's so underestimated. And yet I'm gonna lead you down this path. We seem to be in a world, certainly our generation'cause we are women of a certain age. Thanks Greg. Um, but we've seen a lot and we are seeing changes and maybe the visibility of discontent is broader now than it ever used to be. You know, maybe what we used to see that was negative only came through tabloid newspapers, maybe only came through, you know, gossipy conversations in the workplace and stories, I don't know. But we seem to have a lot of exposure now to a lack of kindness and almost the an environments where people are. Thriving and not thriving in very kind of negative unkind environments. That's gotta be pretty tough though, for hostage negotiators or crisis negotiators these days, right?

Nicky: 35:51

And workplaces. Yeah. I think it is, and I think it's the exposure that we see more of it. Um, but on the flip side of that, and I will flip it over because I do like to see the world through, maybe some of you listening to this will think it's through rose tinted glasses. I. But I can give you numerous hundreds of examples where somebody has displayed a moment of kindness, whether that is standing, talking, negotiating with somebody and being there for hours on end. And, uh, Mrs. Jones down the road coming out with a tray of biscuits and a cup of tea, whether it's being stopped whilst walking along in uniform, and someone saying to me, um. I know you get a lot of bad press, but the majority of us think you do a really good job. We're really grateful that you are here from dealing with accidents where someone's been really badly injured and members of the public helping at those accidents. You know, whether that's standing, holding a head still, uh, so that there's no neck injury or holding a drip. You know, I honestly, I think what we do in social media and media is we focus on the bad. Underneath that there is a lot more good and a lot more kindness than there is badness in the world, and I'm very grateful for that.

Yoyo: 37:15

I think maybe we have an individual responsibility to be kind of critical thinkers in this space and realize we are being fed a lot of negative toxic, narratives because, you know, they've proven that angry people are more responsive. It literally is down to that, you know, you are more likely to click onto something that enrages you, but ultimately what are you doing? You're making big tech, wealthier and I think we are waking up to it like we're waking up to scams. We're waking up. To, you know, you, you buy something off, a social media website. Once you do it twice, it's shit, and then you never do it again. You're like, no, it is just a load of rubbish. We, we learn, don't we, by learning lessons. Yeah, it looks good. Just don't even be tempted by it, you know.

Nicky: 37:59

Yeah. And people are able to get into our minds, you know, it's, it's, it's influence and persuasion. It's the same techniques that you use as a hostage and crisis negotiator to influence, persuade people to step away from the edge and come back down the stairs. You know, they've, marketing is so powerful and they've got a way to reach you now to get into your homes where people never used to. And so the only marketing we ever really had was whenever you went to buy a new car. Um.

Yoyo: 38:24

Yeah, in fact, I was, um, I put something on marketplace yesterday, a really nifty, cute little bit of Lego that I know is quite valuable. And within a couple of hours I spotted a scam, a scammer who's doing that whole, once my email address, said that, you know, that they, I confirmation this and I'm like, oh, God. Yeah. And then bef, because I sussed them out very quickly, they were trying to claim that they've made a payment via PayPal, and I said, send me a screenshot then. And of course that was it. They know, I know they haven't paid it because you, it's easy to get a screenshot to say you've paid somebody something.

Nicky: 38:58

Yeah.

Yoyo: 38:58

I've gotta mention to you, love this phrase, helping people navigate life's toughest conversations. Where does that come from, Nikki?

Nicky: 39:06

Yeah. So I think at that. Tough conversations happen every day, and I've had the privilege of tough conversations being life or death conversations. But when you, when you look at the everyday challenges that we have in life, you know, relationship challenges, work challenges, parenting challenges, um, pressure from general society in certain ways, those. Those conversations are happening all the time and those conversations. So when I left policing, I was like, oh, I dunno what I'm gonna do with my skills now because nobody's having a crisis and nobody, you know, or anything. And then every then I started listening to people and going, hang on a sec. I randomly bought my local village garage when I retired from policing. And ended up setting up a community coffee shop, a community hub, and a, and keeping the garage workshop. And suddenly I had employees and I had lots of customers and I was using all the same skills as a hostage and crisis negotiator that I was with those people literally. And I was like, these people are in crisis all the time. You know, the cars felt, the MOT, they're in crisis. How do I get home? How do I pick the kids up? How do I take my. Partner to work in the morning, all of those things. I run an over 65 gym class. Sometimes they're in crisis, you know, a lot of them. Have illnesses and injuries that they have to work through, and so they come there to get some relief and to have some fun and to keep fit. But actually I'm listening to them. I'm using the same skills and giving them a really good listening to and working out what that crisis is. And so I thought. If I'm like this, there are hundreds of other people who would benefit from learning these skills. And so that's what I do. That's my main role in life now, is I share the lessons I learned as a hostage and crisis negotiator with a variety of people from different roles to help them have those difficult conversations, navigate those really challenging conversations. And how to deal with conflict.'cause there's conflict all the time. Uh, and I love it. I get great joy from it. I. Have, I also run my own course, which is a amazing, based on the police hostage and crisis negotiation course, but get rid of all the police bits and the people that have come on that, their words, not mine, they've called it a transformative course. Why did I do that? Because when I went on the Hostage and Crisis Negotiation course, it was, it transformed my life, and changed the way, and I viewed communication and people. Relationships and I realized that there was a different better way of doing things. And so for me, sharing those lessons with others is joyful.'cause I see the penny drop and they go, oh, get it. I get it now. I get

Yoyo: 41:55

it.

Nicky: 41:56

Yeah.

Yoyo: 41:56

So what type of, people or organizations benefit mostly from your course? Nikki?

Nicky: 42:04

I'm just sitting here thinking of, all the people that I have coached and worked for and taught over the last year. And honestly, it's such a broad spectrum. So, for example, I've worked with a lot of head teachers around, Managing conflicts, especially with, parents. I've worked with gps with patients around managing conflict. I've worked with big organizations, global organizations where they get conflict between different departments or maybe different teams in different countries, and how values and beliefs and culture play a huge part in bringing teams together to work. Towards the same goal and collaborate together. I've worked with foster carers. I work, have worked with, Gosh, there's, I'm just, they're just like, I'm just trying to think of all the people of individual team leaders, with female leaders who, are struggling to be heard. I work with them a lot and give them what I call the four Ps, which is a strategy to help people have those difficult, challenging conversations in a very confident. So, yeah, I've, um, I think, honestly,, as a friend of mine once said to me, it doesn't matter what business you are in, Nick, we're all in the business of people at some stage. So if we're in the business of people, communication is key.

Yoyo: 43:21

Through my own network actually. I'm aware that there's a huge market for your skillset within the nursing sector, certainly in America, where they are noticing an increase in violence against nursing staff. So I can,, I'm already drawing a correlation there of, oh boy. Could they do with you? You know, to do anything to help reduce that conflict in their roles.'cause nobody goes to work really and gets assaulted or have a gun put in their face and, and yet at the end of the day it's the same thing. Still dealing with people. We dunno what's happened in their lives. We dunno what's led them to that stage. And I started learning about this myself back, at the beginning of this decade where I learned about touchpoints. You know, people's touch points that imagine their. They're leaving home, they're getting to the workplace. What are the touch points between them getting, you know, out of bed to getting into the office and sat at their desk, and how many of those things can be obstacles and frustrations and that, that was a huge life lesson that I learned just there in those conversations. Just understanding, so you, you're right. But look, you've written a book and I ask all authors this question, and this is primarily because I love to know the answer. Was the book what you wanted it to be, or was it harder than you thought?

Nicky: 44:41

Yeah, it was really hard. So it became, it was a journey really. It was a five year journey from leaving, policing to getting all the things out in my head. It was really therapeutic'cause there was a lot of things in my head that I hadn't realized that were there. It was an incredible journey. I'm very grateful to, Susan Smith, my book agent, and also to Harper Collins HQ who took it on. But somebody who doesn't get mentioned very often is Liz Shepherd, who was my ghost writer, and she did a phenomenal job. She sat down with me, worked together for, every Wednesday afternoon for six months, we worked together and she managed to get out. All that was in my head. Make it into a, um, incredible story that takes people on a journey. So it reads like a, um. It reads like a crime fighter book, you know, where you're, um, and, but, but it's my journey. So I, when I read it, I'm like, oh, I really like this book. Oh, this is me. So this is like, so it was a bit weird. It was a bit weird really to, to read that. But she did a phenomenal job and so much to the point where my mum even said, when she read the book, she said, it just sounds like you, so she was able to put it in completely my words. So, yeah, a phenomenal skill. She was a. Brilliant to work with. Uh, and, the journey was really interesting. It was very thera therapeutic, cathartic, um, they're probably the words to use. And, uh, the end result was, was better than I had anticipated. Yeah. It was also quite a fearful process because when you put a book out about your life, it's quite a vulnerable thing to do.

Yoyo: 46:28

Yeah, it is. But you know, you had a bestselling book, so it had to resonate with an awful lot of people for so many people to buy it. Yeah. That that's, and I get lots of messages that say that,

Nicky: 46:40

you know.

Yoyo: 46:41

Well, we'll provide a link to the book for sure, so that people can

Nicky: 46:44

find out more. What's the book called, Nikki? It's called Crisis True Stories of My Life as a Hostage and Crisis Negotiator. Yeah, it gets to the point, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. Yeah, and because my name is Nikki. Perfect. That really is my surname. It, I'm quite easy to find.

Yoyo: 47:01

Nikki, I've loved that you've shared your insights with us. I could talk to you forever and I'm sure everyone has enjoyed listening. Thank you so much for joining us on the Security Circle podcast. Thank you for having me.