EP 146 "No Titles. Just Leadership" with Guy Mathias & Philip Anthony of Dardan Security

“Leadership isn’t about the badge on your chest or the title on your card — it’s about the respect you earn and the trust you build.”

Episode Summary: No Titles, Just Leadership

In this candid conversation, Guy and Phil dive deep into what real leadership looks like in the security industry. They strip away the labels and titles to focus on the qualities that truly inspire trust and respect — humility, authenticity, and the ability to listen.

The pair reflect on their own journeys: from navigating setbacks and learning from failures, to building confidence and finding their voice as leaders. They stress that leadership isn’t about command and control, but about creating environments where people feel valued, respected, and motivated.

The episode also takes a hard look at the security industry’s challenges: the lack of recognition for frontline professionals, procurement systems that reward price over quality, and the resulting issues of attrition and low morale. Both highlight that fixing these systemic problems requires leaders who are brave enough to challenge the status quo and invest in people.

Key themes:

• Leadership is about trust, not titles.
• Failures are valuable learning opportunities.
• Confidence grows through humility and self-awareness.
• Procurement and attrition remain pressing issues in security.
• The industry must value people if it wants to grow and retain talent.

Takeaway:

Great leadership in security isn’t about the badge on your chest — it’s about the respect you earn, the trust you build, and the people you empower.

Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

0:01

If you enjoy the security circle podcast, please like share and comment or even better. Leave us a fab review We can be found on all podcast platforms. Be sure to subscribe. The security circle every Thursday. We love Thursdays. Hi, I'm Yolanda And welcome to the Security Circle Podcast, produced in association with IFPO, the International Foundation for Protection Officers. This podcast is all about connection, bringing you closer to the greatest minds, boldest thinkers, trailblazers, and change makers across the security industry. Whether you are here to grow your network, spark new ideas, or simply feel more connected to the world of protection and risk, you are in the right place wherever you are listening from. Thank you for being a part of the Security Circle journey...

Yoyo: 1:04

And I should say, who are our special guests? Well, coming back to the Security Circle podcast alumni, uh, guy Math strategic advisor to Dan Security and Philip Anthony, the Chief Executive of Don Security Limited. Welcome both of you to the Security Circle podcast. How you doing?

Guy: 1:23

Very good. Thank. Morning Yoyo. Doing well. Thank you.

Yoyo: 1:27

Welcome back guy. A professional that, is well loved in the security industry, certainly, uh, in, in, in my circles. Anyway, should I just speak for myself? What can I say, Phillip? Uh, we've had a pre-chat and we've talked a lot about security, uh, leadership. It's about getting the best out of people. It's not about being the expert in the room. Why did you say that?

Philip: 1:50

I think, I think it, it is about not. Uh, not being the person that says everything and makes all the decisions, I think you have to rely on people around you to make those decisions and therefore you've gotta trust those people around you. Uh, I'm a massive, massive believer on building trust in my cohorts., And I think if, if you don't build a trust, then you don't. You shouldn't really have those people working for you, if you know what I mean. It, it is all about trust. It's about recruiting the right people and giving them the accountability and the ownership to deliver what your expectations are.

Yoyo: 2:22

In fact, Philip, you don't really like titles very much, do you?

Philip: 2:26

No, I guess I, I class myself, which is rather amusing in, in our world, as you know, is full of, um, of ex-military and ex-police and government people. So I class myself as an exc, which, causes a bit of amusement amongst everybody because, a lot of people sort say I'm, I'm, I'm X this, I'm X that, but I'm purely XI have no military. No policing background whatsoever. 35 years in the private sector, 30, 35 years in the private sector. Between doing, a few other hobbies, but, yeah, I'm not a big, I'm not a big fan of titles. Uh, and I don't have anything against'em because they are needed in, in, you know, obviously in, in the, uniform and public services. But, I had a mentor, for about five or six years, a while ago, and. The reason I had the mentor, and this is good for anybody, that's sort of, I, I guess moving up the, the corporate ladder or the management ladder, is that, uh, that. I was suddenly ended up as a managing director of a security business called Knightsbridge guarding. And I didn't really, I was thrown into the deep end. I didn't really know what a managing director meant, but I was very proud to be a managing director. So the first thing I did was sort of introduce myself as, hi, I'm the managing director of Knightsbridge Guarding, and I ended up with this mentor for a few years. And, she sort of beat that outta me. Basically, she said, you know, you, the actual reason you're managing director is the reason you're managing director. You are a leader, you are a good person. You're the people. You're the person that the company wants you to take the company forward. So you don't need to tell everybody that you're a managing director. And, uh, and that sort of really stuck with me. And ever since then I've had internal battles when people get promoted and want a new business card and, and get quite annoyed when I say, there are no business cards. You are who you are. And you don't have to tell people who you are. You just have to demonstrate who you are. Long-winded answer, but that's the reason.

Yoyo: 4:09

Long-winded, we love long-winded on the Security Circle Podcast, like storytelling. It's a winner guy. Have job titles always been important to you?

Guy: 4:20

Yeah, ironically, I find myself entirely aligned, with Philip with regards to that discourse that he is just offered. I can always remember back in, in my sort of infancy of my career, somebody telling me, who was my leader at the time that I was obsessed. With my job title, and I said I'm too busy to be obsessed with my, job title. And, ironically, coming into,, what is now a long association with Phil and with Dardan, we've often talked about what does that look like within Dardan and, I've sort of variously said old fashioned terms like chief cook and bottle washer or conscience or whatever. Um, no, I think, you know, it it, it plays to the point Phil's made. I think if you've got the opportunity and we're talking, uh, today about leadership, but hopefully also a degree of. Sort of direction. I think it's about those of us as people and individuals working within a collaborative setup as to how we try and take people with us. So for me, it's about how do people react to me as a person, and hopefully if I've been, instilled, with the sort of leadership qualities that, I've tried to bring to the fore during my career. There's an opportunity for people to say, okay, yeah, actually he is somebody who we can try and follow or certainly try and work with. So, yeah, I'm with Phil on this one. I think at the moment, certainly there's nothing that's told me over, far too many decades that says you need to be hitting people over the head with a job title.

Yoyo: 5:53

Philip, what would you say with all of your years of experience to young professionals who have yet to sort of learn that part of their journey? You know, I mean, I remember when I had my first director position. It was great. And then the role was a bit of a letdown, um, because it, I didn't really feel that the role was commensurate with the title, if that makes any sense. And so how can we, in a mentorship type of way, say to young professionals, it isn't about the quality of the job title that you have, it's the quality of the job that you do. How do we tell them that?

Philip: 6:28

That's a very, very good question. I think it's about, in installing, um, a degree of it's all about confidence, isn't it? It's about confidence. It's about being able to walk into a room and own a room and own a situation and own a conversation. And I think I would say to any sort of aspiring, leader or manager, you know, just, just be. Just, just gain confidence, you know, just gain confidence and, a confident person. Um, I always think, I, I sort of say I, I don't really know what I'm doing. I just surround myself with people that do know what they're doing. And, but I'm confident enough to say that and, uh, it is that's, it's just, it is, I think confidence is the key word. It's, um, I would say. There has to be a certain amount of adaptability as well. I think successful leaders, successful business people have to be adaptable. You know, they have to be able to understand all aspects of their business and all aspects of the people they're talking to. And I think that is absolutely critical. If you're adaptable, you're confident, And this some people I'll call it, I'm also very, very passionate about what I do. And I think if you're a, if you are a passionate person, passionate about your business, that comes across, in a, in very much a sort of leadership type way. You know, you can, again, it's about owning a room, isn't it? About confidently talking about something you're confident about. If that makes sense. And I'm absolutely a hundred percent confident about DAR and security. So therefore I'm more than capable about talking about Dardan security until the cows come home and it is just that, I would say to anybody, just be confident and try and learn that, that confidence. That's probably my key thing.

Yoyo: 8:02

But it's so easy, isn't it, guy, for us to say that when we are of an age that has, you know, we've got all those bullet holes and stab wounds and you know, knives in the back. We've been through the wars we've gone through, but when you are younger, it's easy to lose focus on the fact that younger people feel more competition to, to move faster or quicker than their peers, for example. So when there is so much weight put on status. You know how can you tell a young person who hasn't yet learned how to be confident or even fake it until they make it? I mean, that's where we kind of started, right?

Guy: 8:40

No. Absolutely. And I think, I'm very kind of you to put yourself in that, experience piece for me as much more of an age, than you. Yeah. Yo-yo. So that's great to hear as well. The thing I've always tried to do and I, I've said previously, I, I got involved back in the day with the institute. In terms of mentoring and then sort of very quickly decided that mentoring was a rather sort of arrogant assumption. So it was more around coaching and some of the stuff I do with, some of the younger, demographic that I look after now is around key points I've tried to pick up from my time in corporate. I think, uh, be prepared if you are seeking certainly to develop a pathway into leadership, which is again what we're talking about today. Japanese philosophy,, which, you would expect me to say, having worked closely with Japanese organizations for a number of years, true sort of team spirit. The Japanese have a phrase called ya high, which is go for it. And I think for those of us on the call today, but for anybody, even in non-leadership roles, go for it. Be prepared to follow what you feel you can aspire to and you can achieve. But when you are doing that, do it with quiet humility and humble determination. And I think be prepared to be agile in terms of how you approach, leadership and the challenges of leadership that are there. And also I think try and. Be aware of what can trip you up. And it's something I feel, I've tried to say to people, it's great when we're all being lauded for what we are doing well, but what are the things that we are not necessarily doing in the right fashion? And I've very much been somebody, and this has come as a great surprise, not to anybody who knows me. I'm a horrendous nag. But I also am someone who will try and learn from my mistakes to try and be a better leader and to be a much better communicator and collaborator going forward. So it's trying to engender that into some of the younger people that I'm involved with. We're doing some stuff now with the Risk and Security Management forum where we are working with some of the students at Buck New University to come along. Attend meetings and also to take notes and summarize the day's activities. And I think what that has, managed to achieve has been an opportunity for those people to look at a variety of leaders from across the disciplines of, law enforcement and the military and corporate and personally, if I'd had that opportunity as a young person coming into to this field, I would've grabbed it with both hands. But I think it's making sure that people are aware of what they are seeking to, to do, and be aware of the blind spots. And I might if time permits come on to what I think are some of the blind spots for leaders to be aware of in due course. But I'll sort of leave that

Philip: 11:40

with my rambling answer now. I think one thing that I was sort of really, I've always sort of said to myself, really the key thing for any young person coming up through the ranks is, is to, is to learn from the wins and the losses and the failures. And I think it's easier to learn from the losses and the failures because it's a harder hit. You know, so if you win something yeah. Or something goes, well, it's great and you give yourself a pat on the back or someone gives you a pat on the back and you move on. When something fails or you lose or something doesn't go right in business or in a decision making process and it really doesn't go right, that sits with you for a while. And, and you remember that when another situation comes up further down the line, you then go, your brain goes back to remember that failure. So therefore, I've always said to be, just learn more from your failures and just concentrate on how you put those corrective actions in place. How you make sure that actually I'm gonna fail again. We're all gonna fail again. But you know what? I know how to accept that failure next time and how to maybe put in a corrective action a bit quicker. And that's something that I've always sort of thought. Yeah, learn from your failures and your more than you do your successes.

Yoyo: 12:57

Okay, so I'm gonna say something quite controversial here'cause I have an issue with this kind of failure piece. I've learned more from other people's failures. Because I've never, certainly as a minority in this industry, and certainly in the preceding industry, which was the British Police Force, and then the bri, the previous industry, which was where I was a dj and the only female DJ DJ I ever met was me. I've never really had that space to fail. And so when I've said, you know, I was in the 7% of women recruited into the British police force because that's the percentage at the time when I was there from 2002 to 2009, and you know, being in the security industry and having a security license, I was one of 10% of the minority. There was no space for me to fail. Fail. And women inherently have this kind of like if I fail. I'm branded, I will never get over that. I will always be considered by my peers as a failure for X, Y, or Z. So there is that old adage of, you know, minorities in particular marginalized communities do have to kind of perform better and harder consistently to make sure we don't get labeled with that failure label. So when I'm asked in an interview and I have been asked in an interview to give an example where I've failed. That's the answer I've given. Like, where do you think I've failed to be sitting here in front of you? The CIO of big, big company Incorporated. You know, where do you think I've failed? So I find that hard. So what I'm gonna do now is pivot this and go into how do you determine, as leaders that you are employing good employees by not asking them the question where they failed to learn. Their mettle and how they attack, you know, challenges in their workplace.

Philip: 14:45

Is that for me?

Yoyo: 14:47

Yes.

Philip: 14:48

You have to certainly turn that around. I, it's about, I would say I need to understand if I'm speaking to anybody or interviewing anybody, uh, it's about demonstrating that they've make sound decisions and. I don't wanna use that word failure, but you know, you can make sound decisions based on things that have happened previously. And those decisions come with more, I don't know. Yeah, it is about making sound decisions. It's about, I. Giving examples, of admitting when you're wrong, that's not necessarily failure. Mm. You know, and that's what I look for if I'm meeting people. Is, is just, and complete honesty. I think I trust people too much sometimes. Um, I've had my fingers burn. I think you do. I think, and, you know, you can sort of, I think, yeah, trust is. I have done as a lady, is a very famous, well, very well-known business lady called Mrs. Watson Chais, who started up a very large recruitment company and then sold it to, reliance Security many, many, many years ago. She was a marvelous lady, lived in the same village as me in Hartfordshire, and, uh, she based her entire business life on trust. She ended up as a very, very wealthy lady and she trusted absolutely everybody, which I thought was fantastic. And I got to know her quite well. And I sort of always remember that I think you can be too trusting, but at the same time, you do have to trust people. Does that make sense? You know, you can be let down by people. We can be let down by people, but you know, I just want people to be honest and to be open and honest and admit when they're wrong. And also I think just, yeah, just, I think that's it. Just admit when they're wrong and just make sure that, that they learn from that. I.

Yoyo: 16:28

But don't you think though, Philip, just to follow up, that it's hard for people to admit they're wrong, especially younger folk when they don't feel confident where they're working and the trust isn't there, maybe the psychological trust isn't there. The contracts are broken, so it's, people tend to hide in corners when they don't feel safe enough to do that. So I think what you're talking about is perfectly wonderful and cool. But is it the real life for some people?

Philip: 16:57

No, it's not the real life. But then I would question the leadership of that company. If those people don't feel that they can speak out and they can talk and they're, they are hidden in that corner with their desk facing the wrong way, then, um, you know,, then. Should they be working with it? If it was me, I'd say, well, I'm not, I don't wanna work for this company. Then it's not got the, it's not got the right leadership in place. You know, you wanna be, as a young aspiring manager, you want to, you, you wanna have people around you that trust you and you wanna have people that you can talk to that communicate. I mean, communication is just, you know, if you don't have a company that can communicate effectively, you might as well go home. You know, it is absolutely critical and key and I would really struggle if I knew that we've got some young staff in our. In our business that D didn't feel they could communicate and feel they could get their point across. We have a town hall meeting every sort of, once every six weeks on a Wednesday, it's open to actually all 500 employees. It's open to everybody, you know, and I sit on it sometimes. Sometimes I don't, because sometimes I know if I sit on it. People may not ask the same questions that if I wasn't sitting on it. No, that's good. I have to be mindful of that, but yeah, it's, I would really question anybody that, yeah, I'd love to speak to youngsters. I said, we sound really old. Don't we say that young people that, that don't, aren't comfortable in their own environment in work. I think that's really sad.

Yoyo: 18:15

And I think I'm gonna come over to you now for this guy, especially giving you an opportunity now to reflect on your own previous experiences. I think, if I'm very honest, I think I've stayed with organizations far longer than I should have done. I should have maybe stopped trying to make things work and moved on. Like you said, Philip, you know, is this the right place for me? Am I being listened to? Do I have a voice here? If those answers are no for anyone listening that there is a time to have this very cold, hard conversation with yourself, are you worth more than this? And do you put yourself out on the market guy? Looking back at your career, have there been moments where you've thought, you know what, you've made some decisions that, were based on those types of, ethics.

Guy: 19:01

Yeah, sorry. I was just gonna pull you back into, uh, the earlier comment you made. What you know, was it a provocative statement? Yes, I think, but in a good way. And I think it is. Sorry. My comment would be, I think it is more difficult, you make that point about your background and how you went through the hard yards as a, sort of gender minority. And sometimes we have the ethnic minority piece as well, and I think that's absolutely valid. And I was gonna build on that'cause I was musing as Philip was talking, and I would bring a reference to sort of one of my passions in life, which is obviously both having sort of played and watched football o over the years and shouted a lot at people as a captain on a football pitch for far too many games. But. Again, in my history piece, thankfully people lesser or lesser occasions these days have to go through what I certainly went through. I went through elements in my early career of bullying. And as a manager and as a leader and some pretty horrendous, not leader people who were sort of patronizing and very critical. And it was the hard jobs and I think there's a great sort of similarity now that you can't do anything more on a football pitch in terms of crunching someone or, being hard-nosed or whatever. And, it's a much better environment to play in, and I would take that parallel into certainly the corporate world. I was very keen as a leader to ensure that we didn't have traits within my managerial teams, that there was anything that was perceived or could be construed as bullying or even in terms of those patronizing comments that come through. And, you know, Phil's mentioned that the sort of town hall piece, I was always very vocal. Town halls in and I've worked for some very large multinationals, but I was always certainly, seeking to ensure that my managers and my young leaders were happy enough to talk at a town hall and be critical or open around what they should be asking if they felt the direction of travel for our organization wasn't right. But I do think it's a difficult one to go through. It. It certainly. There. There were occasions when I could have left organizations because of people, and it's another thing I do in whenever I try and think I'm coaching people. Never, ever leave an organization because of a person I. Yeah, be resilient. Deal with it and find a way that you will, engender the opportunity to approach someone who is being, perhaps abhorrent towards you if that ever still comes to play. And more importantly, talking about that open trust as well. You've gotta have a platform for a safe zone. And I think that is the good thing. I think a lot of corporates now have recognized that, that. Plays into the whole, mental health and wellbeing piece and the whole concept that you have as you have agents who are within an organization to be there to be available. I think I was always very conscious of that, of bringing people into an organization. Those first few weeks are. Terribly scary, terribly, worrying because you are trying to understand what is expected of your role, what your leader or boss or manager, expects of you and you are trying to get to know what you should be doing and not doing. So I think it's making time. Whether it's people who are in your managerial teams, it's making time to listen to what people are doing and be observant. And that doesn't just stop after the first few weeks. So you have to have those regular touch points for people coming into any organization. And that cuts across corporate, military, and law enforcement.

Yoyo: 22:48

Guy, I think a lot of people will be very shocked to hear that you've experienced bullying because you are genuinely one of the nicest guys. I can hear all my listeners nodding right now. One of the nicest guys, you could meet in the security industry. So we all know that bullying comes from things like jealousy and envy. We can only assume, that those traits were in play. Trust is important. Isn't it to you, you tend to give more trust than not. But there is, there is, a kind of a businessy corporate phrase of trust. No one. How do you find the happy balance? Because I had a boss once who I learned a lot from. I really did. And he literally said, you know, my biggest weakness was entrusting people because he says, every time you will get screwed over. And he didn't use the word screwed,

Guy: 23:37

BBC rules

Yoyo: 23:38

and I'm thinking, how do you find that happy balance when you generally like to help people feel trusted, but ultimately you have to protect yourself at the same time?

Philip: 23:49

Yeah, that's a a very good point. Guess, um. I, I don't want to, oh, I'm not gonna mention anybody's names and if, if someone's listening to this that knows who I'm talking about, I was, as previous managing director of Knightsbridge, worked very closely with, um, ex-military people of who, you know, work, worked at Harford, et cetera. And obviously the trust discussion there is, they trust their immediate crowd. But like you said, the trust outside that immediate crowd is. Is questionable, uh, for obvious reasons. I sort of spent 10 years working alongside those people and I've absolutely thoroughly enjoyed it and learned a hell of a lot. That's probably where my bias came to trust. No one to actually, I. Trust, you know, actually there, there's a fine line there between, Hmm. Trust no one. But actually, you know what? We can't go through life not trusting everybody, you know? I just find it just doesn't resonate with, it doesn't sit with me at all. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I know you've gotta be careful. Yeah. I, I just think it's about making listening. And making sound decisions and it's not a case of not someone says something to you and you don't trust them. You don't tell them, you don't trust them. You just make a sound decision around what you've heard. And you can, not a nice word manipulate, can't you? You can manipulate that decision around whether you trust their viewpoint or you don't trust their viewpoint, or you trust their decision making or you don't trust their decision making. I think my team would say to you. They know I trust them to make the right decisions. Don't get me wrong, if they make the wrong decision, I'm not gonna get, I'm not gonna wade into them, all guns blazing. We just discuss it. We talk about it. And you know, funny enough, my COO and I were having a chat about it yesterday that, you know, we both know, we both make the wrong decisions and some, but at the end of the day. You know, you have to accept you're gonna make the wrong decision. You don't do it on purpose. You don't, you don't lose people's trust on purpose. So maybe I'm too easygoing on that side. Maybe I should, be a little less, less trustworthy, but I'm afraid it's me. It's my genre, it's my setup. It's who I am. And, people let me down. And, hopefully the way I manage people is if I trust people, they let me down, then they may feel a little bit more guilty than other people. And, they then decide, actually, maybe I don't wanna work for Phil. Or maybe actually I'm gonna, I. Work the way he wants? I don't know. You know, I mean, it's a difference of opinion, isn't it? Leadership is all about opinion. It's not, there's no right or wrong, I don't think. I mean, you could read hundreds and hundreds of different books, on leadership and, I had absolutely no idea what I was doing when I jumped into leadership. I went from being a salesperson, trying to win security contracts, to being a general manager, to being a managing director in about three years. I had absolutely no idea what that meant. I look back at that 15, 18 years ago when I was given that opportunity. I haven't done too badly on my, so, you know,

Yoyo: 26:42

While listening to you, I, I feel a little bit impressed, I'll be honest, because as employees, we don't often get to interview. Our bosses, and we certainly don't get to interview our CEOs in terms of, you know, the organizations. We go and place our dedicated blood, sweat, and tears into and dedication and more hours than we spend with our spouses, if you know what I mean. Mm-hmm. And I just think what you've done there, Philip, is really endeared yourself, and I think a lot of CEOs don't do this enough. I don't think they let their people see that side of them. I think Guy, I can see why you are there, to be honest with you. I think, you know, you might even get people listening to this go, that's guy I wanna go work for. Guy. How did you and Philip meet?

Guy: 27:29

My word. I think it's, uh, sorry, the short answer. We both met each other before both of us embarked on these career paths. So a very long time ago. So I ironically in the same locale as well, and we still live remarkably close to one another as well, so that's interesting. After. 35 plus years as well. So it was very much, uh, pre getting into our respective career paths and I think that's probably been a good balancing piece for us because hopefully when we do, and we do have our regular catchups in a very nice, or very nice environments within the sort of Suffolk landscape that usually are a decent host re that may or may not be near a very famous, international rock stars, location. I think we, have retained that honesty and I think, I've always valued, Phil's. Candor. I think we're very open with one another. And we've talked, haven't we on this basis around trust? I think, I set great store on trust, and I have the utmost trust in Phil and, what he's always sought to achieve. And also I think another thing that we haven't touched on today, but I think that comes into leadership, hopefully, I think is a two-way process around. Respect and I have the utmost, respect for Phil's capabilities and. I think he's very humble about what he's achieved and he said that. But to sustain that over the period of time that I've known him as a leader and to take it through into this current space as a CEO, I think his testament to his capabilities, and I think. From his world. You know, I've sort of touched on my sort of pieces around what I've taken from leadership and skippering teams in football, and I think Phil would, sort of more than, beat that in terms of what he's achieved in the fields of rugby. And I think the lessons he's learned from his coaching and from his leadership and captaining in terms of the rugby piece as well. So I think, yeah, short answer, respect, and I think trust.

Yoyo: 29:36

In fact, I heard, and I hate it, you know, when you re you remember something, but you forget who delivered that information. It was something on social media. You are who you surround yourself with and you've gotta think of the five people that you are around most of the time, and that's who you end up kind of scaling up. Or scaling down in terms of whether you surround yourself with five drug addicts, for example. So there is this kind of, outcome that you are gonna be as strong as the people you surround yourself with or even stronger. So I can see why that relationship works in terms of, I'm gonna come to you with a big question now, Phil, big industry question, brace yourself. Lovely. You've said that one of your frustrations is that the industry in this country is not recognized. Tell me where you think, it needs to be better.

Philip: 30:27

I sort of felt that at some stage I'd be drawn into an industry, an industry question on the very nature of the podcast. And a guy will be smiling. I can see guys smiling. Um, look, I think, you know, yeah, I don't have a loud voice in the industry. I never have done in, uh, sort of 18 odd years that I've been, a leader in the industry and. And quite successful. I've, I have, I do keep fairly quiet, but, you know, I do get frustrated about the industry. I think, I think we could, we could learn a, an awful lot from other countries. I think when we were talking, I gave an example recently, we, we have a real attrition problem in our industry, you know, and, and despite what any company says. And I, forgive me if any of you out there listening are gonna put your hands over your eyes, but Yeah, we suffer from a, we suffer from attrition between 25 and 35% no matter what. People say that's fact. It's not changed. Now for the years I've been in it, and I was, I was with some clients, uh, a couple of months ago. They were from the states. They're obviously fairly big over here as well. Obviously not gonna name them, but, um, we're having a really good chat. No great surprise over a beer and, and talking about, you know, the industry in general and he. He really sort of made me think he, he was really pleased. He's got a big location in California, in Los Angeles. And,, he was really proud of the fact that they had lost something. Like, I think they just made an announcement they'd just lost their 50th security officer to the Los Angeles Police Force, and they were really proud of it.

Yoyo: 31:56

Tell me why

Philip: 31:57

We lose 50. 50 security officers, and we really struggle with it because we don't lose them to within the industry because the industry isn't recognized as being still isn't recognized as being a real career industry. And I just think that there is. Avenues that, that we could work with the public services, with the military, with the, you know, with the police. And just say, look, yeah, is there any way that we can, you know, you can work in the security industry for two years, you can do certain courses, and that, that actually helps you into the police force or into the fire service or into, to something else. And I just think we miss a trick here. I really do. And it's my opinion. And it was really quite. Listening to this, and this guy was a very, very senior person, very senior, very well respected security person. You look at the universities in the states as well and how the securities run over there. And you know, we're, we do a bit of work in universities now. I'm sort of fascinated speaking to some of the people. That I've met recently that they know it's really a career processes and we just haven't quite got it right here. I dunno what the, I don't, I dunno what the solution is and I certainly don't wanna be pulled into to probably getting, going further down the line with this. But, it's people that are. Much more engrossed at a higher level than I am. And I think that's really quite sad, you know, and I've not seen it change massively. Obviously the licensing came in, but I've really not seen it change massively in the last, last 30 years. Not to a massive extent, which is quite sad.

Yoyo: 33:29

But do you think that that could be, because inherently the security industry, isn't very altruistic? even in communities, we learned about altruism, didn't we? During COVID, when we saw communities come together and build things that they'd never built before, whether it was, you know, solutions for supporting each other and caring for each other, and being there for each other. I think you, we will call him Mr. A. His attitude is very much like he, that's his altruistic personality coming out saying what we're doing is we're not assuming that when people come and work for us, they're in for good. We're assuming we have to earn the right to keep them, and if they go on to do better things, then we give them a clap and say, all the best. Have a great life. Maybe the attitudes are wrong, Philip.

Philip: 34:16

I agree, but I, we say we have to earn the, the right to keep them. But, our industry predominantly is governed by pay rates. And those pay rates are governed by the, the end users. They're governed by our clients. And you know, we are, we are. We are charged with looking after multimillion billion pound companies in the quiet hours. And we are pretty much, you know, responsible for that building, responsible for the brand. We're responsible for the image. We're, and, you know, it, it, it's not, not a highly paid industry. And, and, you know, you think, well, you've gotta question that, you've gotta question that, that, that, you know, are, are. Um, some minimum wage. London living wage personnel are looking after millions of pounds worth of business, and it's, you know. People are prepared to spend a huge amount of money on cyber, huge amount of money on, on, on other aspects of security. But when it comes down to the man guarding side, it's still and continually, it's still a race to the bottom in terms of margins and profitability. And until that mindset changes, we haven't, as a company, we haven't got enough coming in to invest in our business, to invest in trading, to invest in everything else. And that's sort of where I get frustrated. And but that's probably why I. Also keep fairly quiet about it.

Yoyo: 35:36

I don't think that you are saying anything that most people won't agree with. You know, you know that they. You are speaking to, the converted guy, if you could wave a magic wand and put something, you know, right. In the security industry., I remember Rollo asking me this question once and I was like, oh my God. Like he really took me off guard. I was sort of winged it, I think. What would you want to see change and why?

Guy: 36:03

I've been relistening intently, of course. I think it helps to be on, uh, such a stellar, a podcast such as this because we can get messages out, yo. Yeah. And I don't think we should remotely underestimate that. And I know, respected colleagues in the industry value this opportunity to have a platform to speak. So I'm very conscious, I'm fortunate. I've had the opportunity to have a moderately. Amplified voice in our industry over the years. Some may say a loud voice, but I never take that for granted. I'm very fortunate that I sit across a spectrum of sectors in some of the things I've chaired and I've had that I. Opportunity to be elected into positions within the industry as well. So it is a great question to ask me'cause Well, what have you actually achieved from that position when you've been amplified? I think I've done my best to ensure that we've challenged, I. The wrongs, I think within the industry, Phil and I often have these conversations about what can we do to influence? And I think that's, again, as a same opportunity today to try and put that into play. I remember many, many years ago with the, dearly loved and late lamented Baris Ruth ick. She asked me to go down to a well-known, formula One racing facility and speak, critically of the British security industry. And I said, well, what does that mean and what does that remit come into? And it was well just to be slightly provocative and shake things up. So I did it, and I did this to a very large industry audience who, a couple of people booed me, not for the first time in my life. A couple of people walked out and it was essentially looking at, essentially under the bonnet of what was going on in, the British industry sector. And I, to a degree, guarding services. And she was very supportive at the time because she said we need to have people who are prepared to speak out. I think it is being able to challenge people I've said for many, many years and sat on many panels. We still don't. That's says we as security professionals, resilience and risk professionals. We still don't generally sit in the C-suite or the eSuite. I've had that luxury. I've been somebody who's directly reported into at least three boards. And it kind of suited my, my, my sort of Germanic personality to be quite sort of blunt with people as well. But I think CEOs. And as Phil, as a CEO may take a different view. Hopefully not because that's what he hopefully likes me to do. I think they've been, aware of that and they've recognized that and have respected the fact that somebody's prepared to talk. But we do have a, a problem around how we structure the perspective and perception of our industry. Yeah. I remember many years ago talking again about we should really be the fourth emergency service and we should translate into the points that Phil's made, where it should be seen as absolute recognition that people transition through and go into military roles or go into law enforcement. I still don't see much of that. It tends to be the other perspective whereby people are coming in and almost as that second or third choice opportunity they've got. So people are still not coming in for the right reasons. I still feel very strongly about that and it is something that I try and, ensure and engineer that we turn this as a talking piece to many of the groups that I chair and I look out because if we can't get this on the discourse platform to. To discuss then we're never gonna achieve it. And it's a big industry. This is hundreds of thousands of people in the UK economy, but we still don't recognize it, and it's still not seen as a profession, unlike many other disciplines that ordinarily, certainly in the corporate sector, is recognized by a seat on the board or certainly with a direct report piece to the board. So, as you can imagine, you're pretty passionate about that.

Philip: 40:07

Yoyo We do have a similar view, and guy God, is certainly more of a voice than I, but I, and, you may not put this out, but, so the last 10 years, with Dardan, you know, when I joined we were turning over to about, 10, 11 mil. So relatively small business. We're, you know, double that now. We weren't sure how we were gonna increase, you know, was it gonna be through acquisitions? Was it gonna be through sales? So I did go on the acquisition trial but we could, couldn't really afford and we didn't really want to sort of risk. Two bigger acquisitions. So we decided to have a look at some smaller companies. I looked at three or four different companies in the space of about five years, four or five years. And this is what depresses me about the industry. Certainly when you get to this, the sort of, I don't wanna say the bottom end because there's some very successful, well run, good smaller security companies. I can tell you now when you go and you look at the, You, you look at the, the balance sheets and the account sheets. The accounts, sorry, of some of these smaller companies. I was horrified what I was seeing. I was seeing good margins and good profitability. I was thinking, well, you know that, that's good. Let's have a look why. And then discovering that they actually only had something like 10 or 15 of their own employees. The rest of the security officers were self-employed, so they didn't have to, so the company didn't have to pay, maternity leave, didn't have to play holidays, didn't. And I just said, well, you know, that that's, there's a lot of those companies out there in, in the uk and the only way that we're ever going to get on top of that is having much stricter legislation about how these companies can operate. And you know, why should someone, male or female that wants maternity or paternity leave. Not be given it because they're self-employed, because the only way they could get a job with that company'cause they've got a license, is to be self-employed. That's inherently wrong. That's absolutely inherently wrong. And that's, that to me is the problems of the industry. There's things that I don't think people realize actually still go on, much as the government has done everything they can to try and stop it. It still happens. I've seen it firsthand and I dunno what we can do about it. Apart from keep voicing it, like Guy said, through, through communications like this and other ways, and I think, you know, it's, it needs to be addressed.

Yoyo: 42:16

If somebody is, has a security license and they're working self-employed for a company, they don't know what their worth is. That's the issue. It's a communication issue. And they don't know that their worth is more than that. And I think even the SIA or the HMRC could do some communications to these individuals, who hold licenses to say, you make sure you work for a company that does pay your maternity leave, that does pay your maternity leave, that does support you in terms of X, Y, and Z does pay your national health insurance because you are worth it. That's a good campaign to have. Maybe I shall speak to Michelle Russell. But that's a good campaign to have because, that's the authorities recognizing Yeah. That there is, a lack of communication of self-worth in the industry. We call it the marigold industry. When it goes down to the kind of dirty, subcontractor, you know, evil kind of space. But Guy, what else would you do? Come on, hit me with it.

Guy: 43:18

In terms of trying to do what we do, I think it's education. You'd expect to sort of me to say that. And I think it's also trying as somebody who's tried, you know, there, there've been periods in my life where, chairing various groups I've tried to build a across sector. Philosophy that says we're all in this together. You wouldn't expect me not to sort of quote the old Commonwealth saying stronger together, but I do think we've got to be able to be honest, and also work with people. You mentioned Michelle. We've gotta work with the SIA. We've gotta work with government to say this is a key industry and sorry, it has to be recognized as a key industry and therefore that we need to. Ensure that we do everything possible to achieve that. And it goes back to the tenet of what I think we sort of started your sort of podcast today with, we can only do that if we've got good quality people in play. And more importantly they can develop their careers so they've got an opportunity that there is a pathway. To pursue leadership and there is a pathway to pursue ambition. I just think we've gotta engender that, within our, industry. And I think it's a challenge in today's, troubled and straightened economic times to do that because it does come down to an investment. It comes down to an investment in training, and it also comes down to an awareness that actually. If you're gonna pursue a career or you are moving into a career, and that also entails leadership, you've gotta have that recognition that there is a piece as well. I was looking at some, information that had come out recently on salaries within security and resilience, and guess what? They don't stack up. When you talk to your colleagues, and I've sat for many years in various groups and departments, I've sat in legal and compliance, and I've sat in finance leadership teams. And on a personal level, the battle to have the remuneration and recognition from my supposed skill sets has been incredibly difficult to get across the line because you're not perceived the same as in the nicest possible way. Somebody working in lawyer or quality control or EHS as well. That's the piece we have to change and we've still got some work to do there as well. So I'm conscious I'm not giving an answer, but I do think it's incumbent upon many of the thought. Leadership and influential groups and yo-yo, we, you know, we sit within the FPO piece as well. And I know it's something that we are passionate about trying to achieve, and that's not our plug for Ifpo, but I think Ifpo is there to support frontline and those frontline people are gonna be the leaders of the future. I.

Yoyo: 46:04

Yeah, and I'm liking now the diversity that I'm seeing in leaders emerging., There's definitely more color in that space, I've been wanting to see that for a long time. Phillip, last question to you really is, you know, if you could wave a magic wand and make something instantly better, where would your focus be? So many, how many wishes do I have? He's thinking,

Philip: 46:28

I guess I'm gonna be, do you know, I think, I dunno how you educate clients because, I don't, because what's happening in our world now, and you probably realize is that it is being driven down a commodity route more than anything else, you know? And. Yeah, well procurement is now, you know, procurement has taken a massive step forward and, and being, I don't know, we're selling less and less to security experts and more and more to procurement and procurement's. Sole aim is to drive cost down.

Yoyo: 47:04

Yep.

Philip: 47:06

So if I was to have a magic wand, I'd get rid of procurement departments.

Yoyo: 47:09

lemme hone in on COVID, because COVID was the first, it was a bit of a light bulb moment for me in the sense that the security industry wasn't even given the dispensation to be a critical industry. Right. Now a lot of people woke up then and thought, what the hell? So how are we gonna protect these tall buildings in London? And I was managing a critical, ministerial building at the time.

Philip: 47:29

Mm-hmm.

Yoyo: 47:30

So that was a big wake up call. And then we've got the wonderful Figan Murray who's come in and has literally. Revolutionize revolutionize the way we think in terms of turning something that was quite practical into a legitimate law to almost go some way to professionalizing securities output in industry, period. Surely we should be climbing on that bandwagon in terms of the professionalizing, because I was watching Love Island the other day, please don't judge me, and one of the contestants joined the island. Basically said he used to work on oil rigs and, but now he works in security. And I just kind of went, Hmm. Yeah, that was my first reaction. I thought, oh, security. If this guy had a cool job and he was a cybersecurity analyst, he would've said he was a cybersecurity analyst. If he said he, he was, a consultant, he'd have said he was a security consultant. He works on the frontline. That's the problem. The stigma attached to this frontline in the sense that it isn't glamorized, it isn't sexy, it's drudgy. It kicked me to death, to be honest when I was in it. It isn't kind to people, so how can we expect people to stay in it?

Philip: 48:42

I don't think there is a magic wand. I, that's a hard question. I don't think, I think there's lots of magic wands, you know and, you know, i'm trying to move that, my response away to, to the actual industry. But unless we have more. Money to invest in training in our teams, uh, in, in absolutely everything that we're trying to do. And the clients need to understand that we do need to invest. We need to invest. We, you know, we want, you wanna train a team of security officers on, on, on whatever it is. Uh, behavioral awareness, and on everything that, all the fantastic work that FI's doing. There's a cost to that. But then when you go to clients and say, this is what we wanna do, this is a, this is the, the training matrix we wanna put together to make sure that you are building, that your brand is protected. It's like, well, you know, sorry, we haven't got the money to do that. And, until that money and that investment is found by our clients, we're still, you know, struggling swimming, swimming against the tide because I can't afford to do it myself. So I need to find clients. And one thing I've done with data A is we're actually, you know, what? We're adopting quite a selfish attitude, you know, that we only do work with people that we wanna do work with. And I guess being a privately owned business, with three shareholders, we can do that. You know, I've, the last, I think I'm not proud of it. Because it doesn't look good in the industry, but in the last 10 years, I've terminated nearly 2 million pounds worth of business.

Yoyo: 50:09

Because bad business it's not profitable business either.

Philip: 50:12

Exactly. I do think that if we, as companies collect as a collective, actually only really push out and work. With companies that take security seriously. Yeah. And actually understand the importance of security. Understand how important us looking after their brand is. You know, it's not just about, it's not just about building protection, it's about brand management. It's about making sure their brand is protected. It's everything that goes with that. We can identify those customers then, we'll, you know, we're head the industry then heads in the right direction because the ones that aren't really, there's, it's a. A purchase, a necessary purchase, an insurance purchase, they'll disappear and they'll, or they'll take it seriously. So I think, you know, I think it's up to us as well as a collective to sort of, you know, find those companies that take security seriously. And even some of the big boys don't, you know, not the big corporates.

Yoyo: 51:05

Yep. It's,

Philip: 51:05

it's still a grudge purchase.

Yoyo: 51:07

And they noticed. Yeah, and Guy, they noticed, don't they, the big corporates when security aren't there because they all of a sudden feel vulnerable and it's almost like maybe our biggest mistake was we were there too long and we were there keeping trouble away too. Well, that they don't realize, you know what we really do.

Guy: 51:25

No, you're right. I think and it's also a challenge for those of us who've worked in, certainly in the corporate piece as well, in large corporate, you've gotta be prepared to argue the case. You know, I thought I was and have been reasonably successful in securing funds and investment for, the security that I. Put into place, uh, that goes to guarding services and what we've done with our guarding service contracts. It also plays across all the other investment capital expenditure in equipment resilience and risk as well. But yeah, Phil makes that point. I think it's collectively, I think as a industry sector, we've got to do more about that. Challenges. Well, what does that mean? But I think it's great to have the platform today to articulate that as a concern, and it's still something that's not being resolved. But yeah, from a corporate perspective, uh, I encourage, with all the people I still coach and mentor, is to say to them, you've got to remember the people that you are dealing with because. The ultimate sort of message from me will be that the fundamentals of business do need to be adhered to. And that's what we have to do when understand your business, understand what ticks, what motivates what you are doing when you are in that role for corporate security. But when in your purchasing the services that you've gotta also understand that people are very much our most important assets. On that basis, and I think hopefully that's the wider piece as well. If you've got people, whether you've got them in a service industry or you are working as a corporate leader, value the people that work with you and nurture them.

Yoyo: 53:09

What a wonderful way to end with love from Ifpo and den security to our frontline brothers and sisters, we appreciate you and everything you're doing. Guy Matthias. The lovely guy, Matthias and Philip Anthony, the man with two first names. Thank you so much for joining us on the Security Circle podcast.

Philip: 53:29

Thank you. Thank you, yoyo. Thanks, yoyo. That was my first one and very much enjoyed it. Thank you very much.