The Security Circle
An IFPOD production for IFPO the very first security podcast called Security Circle. IFPO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, and is an international security membership body that supports front line security professionals with learning and development, mental Health and wellbeing initiatives.
The Security Circle
EP 154 When Sport, Strategy & Security Collide. Security Isn’t a Solo Sport — And Why That Needs to Change with Paul Harvey
🎧 Podcast Summary — When Sport, Strategy & Security Collide
Security Isn’t a Solo Sport — And Why That Needs to Change
In this powerful episode of The Security Circle, Yolanda “Yoyo” Hamblen sits down with security heavyweight Paul Harvey to explore the unexpected intersections between elite sport, leadership, crisis management, and modern protective security.
Paul shares his early journey from rising cricket talent to the boardrooms of major security organisations — revealing how the lessons learned on the pitch shaped his approach to leadership, resilience, competition, and building high-performing teams.
The conversation dives into:
🏏 From Cricket to Command
How elite sport cultivated Paul’s competitiveness, mental toughness, discipline, and team leadership — qualities that would become the backbone of his security career.
🤝 Why Security Can’t Be a Solo Profession
Paul explains why protective security must operate like a cohesive team rather than isolated individuals, highlighting the critical importance of collaboration across operations, BD, finance, scheduling, and frontline staff.
⚠️ Lessons from COVID
Paul reflects on steering a business through the chaos of the pandemic — the fear, the strategy resets, the pressure on people, and the communication needed to keep teams aligned and clients reassured.
🧠 Coaching, Communication & Personal Growth
He discusses the transition from a direct, male-dominated environment to a more inclusive and emotionally intelligent leadership style — and how coaching reshaped the way he motivates and supports others.
👥 Diversity, Competency & the Future Workforce
A candid look at the talent shortages in the industry, the need to “grow your own” leaders, and why guaranteed minimum competency must become a non-negotiable standard in security.
🛡️ Martin’s Law & Public Safety
Paul breaks down why mandated standards are essential, how Martin’s Law will influence the sector, and why the industry must move beyond commercial decision-making when lives are at stake.
🌍 Raising the Bar for the Entire Sector
From TinyG and the City Security Council to developing the next generation of professionals, Paul advocates for collaboration across associations and clearer alignment across the security ecosystem.
This episode is rich with insights, lived experience, humour, and straight-talking wisdom from one of the sector’s most respected voices.
If you’re interested in leadership, protective security, crisis resilience, professional standards, or the future of the industry — this one is unmissable.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-harvey-373b7116/
Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers
If you enjoy the security circle podcast, please like share and comment or even better. Leave us a fab review We can be found on all podcast platforms. Be sure to subscribe. The security circle every Thursday. We love Thursdays. Hi, I'm Yolanda And welcome to the Security Circle Podcast, produced in association with IFPO, the International Foundation for Protection Officers. This podcast is all about connection, bringing you closer to the greatest minds, boldest thinkers, trailblazers, and change makers across the security industry. Whether you are here to grow your network, spark new ideas, or simply feel more connected to the world of protection and risk, you are in the right place wherever you are listening from. Thank you for being a part of the Security Circle journey..
Yoyo:Paul Harvey, we made it here we are. A Friday recording a Security Circle podcast episode. Many will be wondering where I'm gonna start. First of all, welcome the Security Circle podcast. How you doing?
Paul:Very good, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to, to have a chat and maybe explore some elements of me that aren't always necessarily made available in the public domain and via LinkedIn and other social media channels.
Yoyo:Well, that just gives me a very open page to start with, but I'm gonna start with one of your first careers. You were injured, weren't you? As a professional cricketer.
Paul:I played, uh, cricket for Essex from the age of 11, right the way through to 21. Went all the way through the, the age groups, uh, got to 21 and had a back injury. Um, it was debatable how long or deep my professional career was gonna be.'cause Essex at that time were like the Manchester United at their peak. They, they were winning everything with some amazing players. Um, and uh, as a result of that, I got some, offered a couple of contracts with some other counties, but decided not to pursue it.'cause I knew really there wasn't the opportunity to fulfill that physically. Uh, and then went and worked for my father who had a security company and never look back.
Yoyo:I've heard some reasons why people fall into the security industry, and I have to say, I think that's an unusual one, but. I've spoken to other professionals who have had other very successful careers and for one reason or another they've not been able to continue and it's had quite a, a different, uh, um, effect on the brain ion what happens next? How did realizing that you couldn't play cricket anymore affect you?
Paul:I could still play recreationally, but I just wasn't gonna be good enough to play a, a professional standard. But I think that the, probably the first transferrable piece of that is, um, playing at technically is an elite level within your own genre, uh, is a high, higher propensity to sort of be competitive. And I think that competitive element. Is, um, is something that still lives with me today, which is why, you know, I like the tender process. I like being in presentations. I like to win because I'm used to winning. Um, uh, particularly in sort sporting, even, even when I played amateur sport was in good teams and we tend to win more than we'd lose. So I like winning, but I also think that you learn other skills, so resilience because you don't always win. Um, and I think certainly operating at a level where you are trying to pursue a professional career, you are open to coaching. So from a technical and uh, psychological and how you play the game, you've got older coaches sort of te telling you how to be better all the time. So that kind of continual improvement, never being satisfied. There is always a way to be better. You go through all the ups and downs that professional sports people do go through, which is you go through difficult times where you've lost your form or your technique and you work hard and you grind and you come out the other side and sometimes you need to step away and have a complete break. I think all of those skills and experiences, particularly the, the competitive nature and wanting to win and wanting to be the best you possibly can be. Definitely still lives with me as part of my value system and how I approach business today.
Yoyo:You've highlighted there are a number of very common reasons why sportsmen tend sportsmen and women, I should say. Oops. Yo-yo. Why? Sports people, uh, tend to be very good leaders, but it's more than that, isn't it?
Paul:Yeah. I mean, the leadership piece also came in, I think. Um, rather than just being a player, I was often captain of those teams. So you learn leadership skills from the age of about 1415. Um, and, and cricket as a sport is particularly interesting'cause it's a team game full of individual performances. You know, at that moment in time it is the bowler on their own has to bowl the ball. The batsman or batter, um, has to receive the ball. Um, they're reliant on the rest of the team to catch and field. But in that moment, it's actually, uh, the combination of individual performance related to a team environment. And I think that, that leadership is, how do you get the best out of the individuals? Sometimes it's to have a laugh and a joke with someone. Sometimes they just need to be left alone if it's not going well for five minutes and come at them in a soft way. Other people need a rocket because they, they thrive on the adrenaline of competitiveness and they wanna prove you wrong. And I think. Building competitive teams and elite teams or good teams or high performing teams certainly was something that came to me, um, from the age of like 14 or 15, really being responsible as the leader on the pitch. Also trying to think about the game and be ahead of the game and be ahead of the opposition. And again, that transfers into wanting to be one step ahead of our competitors in the market that we're operating. Um, but ultimately it's a combination of kind of 10 or 12 different traits, personality styles, competitiveness, the ability to be a gracious loser, which maybe I wasn't quite so much when I was in my early twenties and you as you soften and get a bit older. Um, but yeah, that drive and everything else, uh, comes from, comes from that background.
Yoyo:There's nothing wrong with not being a gracious loser, Paul. I'm a dreadful loser if when I'm playing games night with the ladies and I lose, I am awful to be around. Um, but I think, I think it's best just to not lose.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm lucky in that what I would say is I've been fortunate. Yeah. Whether that's by pure luck or by design, to not lose that often. Um, and certainly I think it's not just a case of losing, it's okay, what have I, what can I, what can I learn from when I've lost and how can I address that? And we've had a big piece in our own organization over the last year, you know, it is very easy to go to a presentation, get the feedback as to why you didn't win it. Uh, the contract. And it could be a hundred grand, it could be 2 million pounds. And suddenly think, well, okay, we've gotta take all that feedback and suddenly. Change the way we do everything, but actually we've been incredibly successful doing it that way. Maybe it wasn't a fit for that person or that organization on that occasion. And that's absolutely fine and you can refine, but you can't do what sort like six year olds do when they're playing football. You know, the ball goes over to the right hand side and 22 kids run over there, and then it goes over that side. You know, you've got to believe that if you are being successful, and if you're losing all the time, then there's something fundamentally wrong. You've either gotta change the players, change the way you're playing, or change the manager. And that applies to business, doesn't it? But, um, ultimately, you know, you've got to back yourself if you're doing the right thing. And, and if you are being successful more than not, then, then really sort of drive home your advantages and, and also celebrate success and you learn more from what you lose potentially. But. I'm still a big fan of doing the, doing the, uh, the analysis of when you win. Why did we win? And keep doing more of that, you know, what should we do more of and what should we do less of is really two really simple questions to ask.
Yoyo:I'd like to talk to, to you about, uh, the culture of cricket because a long time ago, around 1999, 2000, I had a boyfriend who was really into cricket and he got me into cricket. And notably, whilst I was in Barbados, uh, you know, as you are, I happened to bump into the whole of the West Indies cricket team at that time, um, including the greats who were there. That's Kurt, the Ambrose, curly Walsh, Brian Lara. Um, and I got to see a very young, is it Chris? What's his name? I can't remember. I mean, he was, it was his like inaugural competitive year and now when I see him on tv, he's like a grown man. It's just really weird to see him have grown up through cricket. When I used to go to, I think Lords is the only county cricket ground I haven't been to. And I got to see some of the friendlies as well when they came over here.'cause this was the England v West Indies, 1999, 2000, can't remember, but it was Curtley Ambrose or Curtley Walsh's final, final match. And everyone at the bats in a, you know, they meet the bats and they walk, you walk under a tunnel of bats and it was just so, so moving and it was a great, great test. Yeah. And I learned all about cricket. But what I also learned is because I was going on my own to go and watch the cricket, I used to sit, and I remember this one time where I sat and I can imagine, you know, sitting with a group of guys like you and there were five of them in a row and I got to meet them all like, hello. Right.'cause you know, you're there for a few days or sometimes just a day. And, uh, each one of them had brought something to eat. So, one guy had brought something for dessert, some guy had brought something for the main and some guy brought some alcohol, the other guy brought some dump something for starters. And they passed all their food down to me and included me with their whole menu. And there was just such a great culture of really just enjoying being a part of the audience, being a part of the spectator group. And I was very privileged'cause I got free tickets to go because I knew somebody that knew Nasser Hussein. Okay. But I was wearing my West Indie strip. As you do. And when I went to the lounge, the VIP lounge, a Friends and family lounge, I think they called it, I was wearing my vi my West Indie strip, at NASA Hussein's table. Okay? So nobody was like all frowning upon it. It's love the fact that you love cricket. It's very different culture, isn't it?
Paul:Yeah, I mean, I took my son to his first ever cricket match recently at Lords for the hundred final, you know, he's shown very little interest about cricket. I'm not a pushy dad, so I'm not sort of forcing him down that road if he starts to take an interest. And then obviously we could explore that further. I think a couple of things, if you've not been to Lords, I'm a member at the MC, so we can address that at some point. Woo. Next summer. Nice. Yes, so we'll tick that box for you. But NASA Hussein's dad was actually my coach for Nice, for 10 years at the Ilford Cricket School in East London, on the borders of Essex and, and East London., And NASA was part of the teams that we sort of grew up with. He was, a little bit older than me, with a couple of other guys as well. But yeah, I think that the culture of cricket is you can actually have very mixed crowds. So you don't have segregation. It's not quite as tribal per se, as say football or something else. And the social element is actually a key part of it, you know, I mean, I've been to cricket, which probably technically classes as the prawn sandwich brigade where they're there and it's a really nice social and they're chit-chatting all day. And they've had a great day. And the cricket just happens to be going on in the background.
Yoyo:Yes, yes. Oh, there's six. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um,
Paul:likewise, I've been to, to lords to, to watch as a member of the MC and then never actually got to see any of the cricket. You bump into a very extended group of people that you've met over sort of 15, 20 years and you end up in the, in the, in the beer garden at the bank, drinking pims, talking to your friends. And then, you know, I went home once and said to my wife, I'm going back tomorrow. I need to watch the highlights. She said, you've been there all day. I said, well, I dunno what's going on in the game. I didn't even get to see me at that, you know, I literally was on my way, got hijacked and ended up just talking to friends. So. I think, you know, there's not many people that I technically class as very, very close, close friends. Um, but I have a lot of people that I know, uh, and that I could happily spend time talking with or catching up with. Um, and I think probably the one bit that I miss out of cricket, out of everything is the, the dressing room and the camaraderie and the team sport team aspect of it. And I, I quite like teams. Um, and again, that's filtered back into, back into my professional career. I like being part of a good team and I like to see people fulfill their potential even if they don't realize what their potential is themselves. I think that comes from having some of those leadership positions. It's incumbent on people. And that comes back to all those lessons that are learned from, you know, from the age of 15 I was playing adult cricket. Most other people would've been 21, 22. So I grew up quite quickly. Yeah, certainly in sense of humor. Yeah. We were, the team that I played in recreationally were East London, Essex borders. You need to be some of the market traders. Yeah. You need to be able to come back with a one liner. You, you, you know, you're gonna get it. Uh, from love, from a position of love. You know, I'm sure these days some of the stuff that was discussed is probably, uh, racy. Yeah. You wouldn't, you wouldn't, uh, you wouldn't be allowed to do it in the workplace today, quite rightly. Yeah. Um, but you learn, you learn to fight your corner pretty quick and you gotta be very sharp from a social perspective. But then they also were pretty high performing players as well. So you get to see both sides of that. And it is all of those bits. The social side, the, the fact that I was around adults from a very young age meant that I sort of grew up quite quickly from that perspective, but also learned a lot more from different people. And now I'm sort of 52, which I'm more than happy to share. Um, so a lot of those people, like in their sixties. Now. Um, and it's very different. So, uh, yeah, my, my, my peer group was very much, I played cricket every single day from April to September when I wasn't at school pretty much. Um, but a lot of that peer group, the 10 years, five, 10 years older than me. So you, it is a very different sort of background and upbringing because I wasn't with people of my own age all the time.
Yoyo:So let's go back to the dressing room. I loved hearing you talk about that because if we look at ourselves as consummate business professionals, there's a, there's a lack of that dressing room vibe isn't there in business. And I started thinking, well, we do experience it. I think from time to time when we get companies together and we have group meetings, we have Christmas parties, we have conferences, we have seminars, and we get that kind of, you know, work tribe feeling, but mostly in our careers we're going solo. So how can we, when we know being in the dressing room and being a part of that great vibe, how can we do you think, inject a little bit of that into our work life?
Paul:I mean, I think from a, an individual perspective. Insecurity and protective security in particular. You know, I am flying solo to some degree, but it's not a solo ga Back to that cricket analogy, if you like, it's a, it's a number of individual subject matter, subject matter experts coming together to create a team that's successful. Um, I, I specialize now much more in sort of high risk, high profile counter-terrorism type area, but you need your operations team and then you need your BD team to be able to articulate that. And then you need your, uh, finance team to be able to bill it correctly. And then you need your scheduling team to make sure the people that are there. So actually I think that, you know, the, the team mentality is something that's absolutely critical if you want to get it right and that communication piece across the group is really important. So I don't think that security. I mean, if you are a consultant giving advice, potentially you could operate and fly solo, but I don't think there's any element of protective personnel that I've been involved in that that is exclusively sort of flying solo. So we have to get those teams together, and I think when you fail is when those, those various component parts aren't working and aligned correctly. And I think that's probably why I've quite enjoyed this SME space. You know, I've, I've had the opportunity and worked in corporates. I, I can live in that world and survive in that world and, and be reasonably happy, but I quite like SMEs where you're a bit more agile, more flexible, very much can still consider the client and the staff on the ground. You know, the, the people in our business on the ground will know who I am. Um, because ultimately it doesn't matter what I say in a, in a presentation or what the team says in a presentation. We will be measured by the delivery on the ground that comes from the people that are delivering the service. Uh, and so I'm ultimately there to support them to, to make them as successful as possible. Um, and sometimes that's, you know, different approaches for different people. But ultimately, you know, one of the things that our clients say about us, and I think that comes from a culture from the top, is that you've got accessible and visible senior management working with the teams on the ground rather than being disconnected. Um, and I think that's a really valuable part of what customer sees is the value proposition and, and what they need in protective security. You know, they don't, they don't want anonymous people and they wanna be visited regularly. Uh, and it's some really simple things that, that keep them connected to you as an organization.
Yoyo:So when you went back, uh, let's go back into your, your first job you worked for your dad's security company. What was it about that experience that has kept you in security all this time? I mean, I don't mean like, you know, decades. Yeah. It's what is Yeah. It's
Paul:31 years now, so we can talk about multiple decades. That's fine. Um, I think there's a few things. When I was, uh, having the occasional day off of not playing cricket, I'd always wanna earn a few pounds to do something. Yeah. So, you know, my first proper job in that business on a day by day basis was actually. You know, with a hairdryer d sign, writing patrol vans that were gonna go back and tee cutting them. And so they, so they didn't get penalty clauses on a on return. So I think my father came from nothing whatsoever. My, my mum and dad from the east end of London, my grandfather was in the Royal Navy, then worked in the royal docks. You know, they had nothing whatsoever. Father worked in exhibitions around Europe. We got very close to moving to Germany when I was quite young because he was spending his time out there, got made redundant from that job. Drove a mini cab and ended up becoming a salesman for a company called Security Express. That, uh, and that was his pathway. So the sales route is a family tradition to some degree, I guess, and that's how he started in security. Um, so yeah, being in a car park on a cold wet September morning with your fingers, freezing and dsci writing. And then when I went to university, I did a sports science degree, um, which fitted kind of my, my, uh, aspects around sport and enjoying doing sport. And, uh, I specialized in, uh, biomechanics and physiology, so a bit more sort of technical and uh, sort of a little bit of, uh, psychology in there as well. So I think that was, that was a good platform. And when I came out, I was actually looking for a job in. In professional sport. You know, once I realized I wasn't gonna play it, I had a qualification. And lots of people that were in my cohort at university have gone on to great things. I mean, premier League sport scientists, some of the leading people in that field. Uh, one guy was head of British Olympic performance for the 2012 Olympics. So, you know, quite, quite a prestigious and, uh, well, uh, governed and successful cohort of people. And I ended up doing, um, recruitment. So 50,000 miles a year, I couldn't quite work, work out what had happened. I had a really nice Pergo 2 0 5 GTI when I was at university. Um, and then had to give that to my younger brother who remained at university and ended up in a patrol van, uh, that could only do sort of 85 miles an hour flat out down hill with a following wind. Um, and, uh, was doing 50,000 miles a year, you know, and I lived in Essex. I would drive to Wales and up to Scotland and back down to Essex in sort of like a day sometimes. Um, I would certainly know my way around the country based on pretty much all the job centers that there are, you know, from, from I could tell you where Mur Ted, uh, mur Ville is in Wales, droit Witch, Glasgow, you know, know them all, um, from doing that, and, uh, I kind of got fed up with that after about 18 months and said, okay, I've earned some money. I'm gonna pursue this career that I'd intended to do. And he said, have you thought about going into the sales team? I said, no, not really. Okay. Um, so went, went and had a go with the sales team just as a stop gap while I was applying for some other jobs. Um, and this was. Probably early nineties at this point. So, you know, the salesman, first thing I was taught was, right, we're going to the pub lunchtime. You know, you don't drink beer'cause clients can smell that. So you, you drink vodka at lunchtime and you, he's very, very old school. Sort of play hard, work hard. Um, there was a guy there called Martin Kirby who unbeknownst to him, he's not with us anymore. God rest his soul. But, um, I learned more about what not to do in sales than what to do. But he was a tremendous character, uh, as well. Um, and then we sold that business, uh, into a company called Capital, capital Security. So we had capital with an a l, they were capital OL at the end. They were aimed stock market listed and there was a clash in the names and they specialized in maritime and aviation and audit and stock taking security. Um, we were, they're originally gonna buy us and then we merged and my father moved into the, the, the guarding site looking after that. And after three years, it got bought by a company which you would now recognize as Carlisle. So my father sort of transitioned into the CEO of Carlisle working for, for Law Ashcroft directly, who still owns the business today. We took that business from sort of 40 to 120 million. Uh, some of their biggest customers today, like Tesco. That actually started with my father doing a key, holding a patrol in his own car from one site in sort of, uh, north Essex, north, Hartfordshire. And I did quite well at sales. Then moved into MD role, came out of that business and went into a small business. And we actually bought that business. So we owned it. Um, got a bit sticky'cause it was subscale really sort of seven or 8 million in the, period immediately following the financial crisis in 2007. Yeah, so it wasn't resilient enough because of the margins in, in the sector. It didn't really stack up and we we fell victim of some of some. Some aggressive banking practices, I think would be the polite way of putting it. Um, so we decided to sell and we sold that into a company called Emprise, and that's where I met my wife. And, we now have an 11-year-old son. So actually, you know, happenstance and circumstance and is it fate and all those kind of things. It all came together. And then I was headhunted from Emprise to go into ultimate Security and that probably was the period where being very luncheon centric, looking after major assets like the shard, I probably want more about security, threat and risk and proper security in the two years and nine months that we were there, um, before we sold that business to Bidvest, uh, Newnan. Um, probably learn more about that and certainly love the people. And if you go back to. The environments that I enjoy, you know, lots of fun, genuine team effort, very small, working out of a very small office, underneath City Point, you know, you wouldn't believe for the size of business and what they were looking after, what the back office actually looked like. Um, a lot, a lot of fun. A lot of laughs, but also people that took security, threat and risk really seriously. And, uh, from a security operational model and delivery model, probably unsurpassed at the time. You know, when I arrived it was about 25 million. Um, and two years, nine months later, it was 90 million. Um. I was the commercial chief commercial officer in that business. Helps a little bit with strategy, but it was very simple. You know, it was, uh, larger contracts, nothing less than two men, 24 hours a day. Managed contracts particularly, uh, certainly had the profile of some big, big assets. The first building they ever, one was Tower 42, so tall buildings became a specialism. And pretty much by the time we, we departed company, uh, and sold into, uh, Bidvest. They looked after everything other than the gke and that was the only one that hadn't been part of that portfolio. And it wasn't difficult sell, actually, the, the business was so good. All you had to do was to tell the story. Effectively. Um, and it just became compelling. So, you know, that was a very pleasurable time, uh, sold into Bidvest and then from Bidvest to, stayed for, stayed for two years, did the integration, and then had an opportunity to come into all security. And at that point, ward was sort of sub 30 million. There were thereabouts, uh, had been around for 20 years. Um, and I came into that business, uh, on the 1st of January 20 or 4th of January, 2020, and then was there for 90 days and then COVID hit. So yeah, that was a very interesting introduction to the business. Hopefully some of my experience and skills, particularly around resilience and communication were, were valuable during that period.
Yoyo:Um, tell me more about COVID and how you had to personally adapt to support the business.
Paul:So, I think COVID was. Something that everyone was incredibly scared of from a business perspective. You know, we, we asked our customers when we saw what was happening in Europe, you know, if you need to shut the front door today and go home'cause that's the potential what you're gonna do. And they said, well, we're gonna leave your offices there. I said, okay, that's, that's one answer. But what happens if nobody, including security officers can, can sit at, at your reception and protect your building? And it was suddenly the, you could see that the, the lights going on when people thought, oh my god, you know, we'd have to shut down the BMS systems and we don't really know where the front door keys to Lock it down. Lock it down. Because they've never had to do, yeah. Right. Yeah. We, we do dynamic lockdown as a, as an exercise in terms of, you know, there's protestors, how can you shut, but to literally switch the lights off and then, oh, well that would take like about three weeks to shut the BMS down and, and all the, the, the HVAC and everything. And then depending on how long it shut for, it would take another three months to open it back up. You know, to get the certification. So yeah, that was, that was a stressful time. Um, we were concerned as I'd imagine most other companies would be, that we have a people based, uh, business and that requires wages. And our, our wage bill at that point was two and a half, 3 million pounds a month. So if you don't get paid by your customers, we were probably pretty resilient. We had three months money in the bank and support from the bank if we needed it. Um, which is like 10 million quid. Um, but a lot of other people probably wouldn't have lasted a month. Now, ironically, what happened was that because everyone adapted to remote working very quickly, and because security was a necessity, we got paid very quickly by our clients because they couldn't afford for us to say, well, you're not paying us. You're in default. We're gonna move off and not protect your building. So ironically, our debted days and our payments received from customers was the best it's ever been and continues to slip back to sort of BAU this this time. So that was the first piece I think. As an owners of business, there certainly would've been people, and I can't speak for the, for my, my colleagues on our, on our board and the shareholders at that time, but certainly the thought goes through your head, well, hang on a minute. You know, I've worked all these years, my business is worth x. It might not be here in two months time. You know, and if you've planned a strategy for sort of semi-retirement or expectation that one day you're gonna realize the, the value of that business by selling it, that that could be taken away. And maybe you've got your own, you know what you're gonna do yourself. You've got a mortgage, you've got, you've got your own, you've got your own, uh, issues to deal with. Everyone needs money to some degree, and to have all of that taken away. So there's a lot of emotional turmoil in that. Um, then one of the, the board actually got COVID quite badly. Yeah. Uh, and ended up in intensive care. So came out of that successfully. So there's all of those dynamics going on. From a sort of ownership leadership perspective, you start drawing up lists, you know, phase one of redundancy or furlough phase two of redundancy or furlough and phase three, you know, and ultimately, you know what is, if it keeps going and it keeps going and you can't afford to operate, what's the bare minimum? And, and that's a really challenging period to go through as leadership because the decisions you are making is gonna impact on people's lives. You know, you are effectively gonna say to them, you haven't got a job because, you know, the business can't, can't continue to trade at this level. We never got to that, that phase because,'cause,'cause a furlough came in. But this is before we realized what the, what the help was gonna be, you know? So, you know, those are emotional. Difficult periods to navigate. And I think you need to, need to have some experience in, in being through some of the bad times in business to be able to balance that up and how you communicate that. And I'm a firm believer of not keeping people completely in the dark. You know, I think that sometimes, you know, um, everyone doesn't need to know everything, but if you're gonna give bad news, I think sometimes you've gotta communicate it, um, and not be afraid to communicate it. And a lot of the time people will understand whether they like it or if it perhaps negatively, at least, at least you are fair. And, and you give your reasons why. So people can understand it, rather than, well, what's happened, I dunno. And just suddenly be cut off or thrown, thrown to the wind. Um, but interestingly, our business thrive and survived through that period. We, we, we won contracts, mobilized contracts in COVID, which was the interesting proposition. Um, came out the other side very effectively. But what I would say is, is that. Any team, any business, anything you'd be involved in, it's very easy to get distracted and in your own world and have these sort of niggles and conflicts and differences of opinion. But actually, when something like that happens, it brings out the best in people because you've all got one core aim. So every morning at 9:00 AM we were all on a teams call, you know, teams or we think it was Zoom then, because teams wasn't really teams, you know, they hadn't even caught up with the technology to do that. Uh, and we had a, a rigid plan, a rigid agenda, um, and we had an action plan, and the next day we came back and checked, had everyone done the things they were supposed to do that day. And a big part of what my responsibility was, was to, to coordinate that, but also communicate and communicate and provide reassurance to our customers and frontline teams. You know, comms is incredibly important in that, you know, don't worry, we've got your back. We're still here. Cash is fine. Staff are out, you know, we are working with you on this, you know, um, and you can't do it face to face. And they're all busy in their own world because they're dealing with their own thing. Ultimately. You know, we are, we're one of many, many different pieces that the property and facilities management work with, for example. Uh, and they had their own business issues. Um, so yeah, providing reassurance and, uh, I think we thrived actually. I think it's, and then some, some of the bad habits creep back in where people, you know, personalities clash. But when you've all got laser focus on a crisis or a major incident, it really can bring out the best in people. And I think that showed how good our team was at that point and showed have been their best night and they performed exceptionally and arguably probably don't perform quite as well today as we did then, but would do again if it was required. So, and, and you build different relationships because you're dependent on each other and you are all in it together. Um, and a lot of those lessons play itself out over time, positively as well.
Yoyo:So before we move on to what does Ward look like today? Hmm. Uh, if you could go back, knowing what you know now in that period around COVID, what would you do differently?
Paul:Um, I think we did most things right. I dunno if I would've changed job at the time that I changed job. Um, but actually it played itself out for, for the better in the long term. Uh, I think that I came into the business very much from a preparedness threat and risk. Background because of the, the nature of the assets that we'd looked after at Ultimate and Bidvest subsequently. Um, and I don't think I pressed the message enough in the ward business'cause I only just landed effectively. You know, I did 90 days in the business and then 400 and something out the business, you know, still working, but didn't see anyone. Um, and I'd given a couple of briefings at operational meetings and I know that I went into one of those meetings and said, look, there's this big thing happening, you know, are we ready? Um, and, uh, went through a whole briefing and walked out and one of the senior members of the team went, yeah, well that's not gonna happen. Let's just carry on what we were talking about. Um, and kind of rubbished it and sort of, you know, almost patted me on the head and, and sent me running. Um, and I guess that that's because that's not the world that the business had operated in at that point. It was very much sort of, once it's 8 3, 3 6 is. Smaller, you know, provide the manpower, less threatened risk, not these iconic high profile, uh, locations at the time. And there was a few, but, but they weren't, they weren't commonplace within the organization, so that wasn't necessarily something that was, that was common to them. And I guess I sat back a little bit and just went, well, we're gonna wait and see. I did the work in the background that I needed to do. I knew that we'd be prepared, but I probably could have pushed that conversation differently. Um. But at the same time, I think I'm learning more, always learning more about the difference between sort of push and, uh, and, and working more collaboratively and, and getting the best outta people. And certainly, you know, I think having played cricket in a male dominated environment, my first business that was my father's was ex Royal Marines and, and men on the board. So not toxic masculinity, but very direct speaking. Um, you know, and, and as a result of that I've had to work on things like how do I engage on a professional basis with women? You know, that was a big thing that I had to that
Yoyo:minefield. How did that go, Paul?
Paul:I mean, it's interesting. I mean, I think one of the things is. Coming back to that, that cricket pieces, I, I'm happy to receive coaching. I mean, you talk to my wife, she gives me an appraisal on a daily basis, I think would be the, her phrase. But, and she's been brilliant. She's actually brilliant. She's, she's a coach now and that was a natural progression for her to move into, uh, for, for high level executives, particularly people wanting to move into board level roles that are in senior management teams. So I take, and, and she said to me, she said, it's not the message that you are giving, it's the way you are delivering it. And I actually went off and saw a coach and did a, a 360 degree exercise, which was say, imagine the people that normally in your boardroom, which was very mixed and'cause Emprise was a cleaning business. So there, there were a lot of women from the cleaning side predominantly compared to the men that were in the security side, which is right, wrong, or indifference is the make of what the board was. Um, and, um, you know, is that, say the words that you said exactly. Now, put yourself in that chair. Physically move. Okay. Listen to what that you are, you are Mr. X, you are the chairman. How do you receive that? And you are Mrs. Whatever, uh, who's head of this clean individual. How do you, and you think, well, you know, I wouldn't wanna be on the receiving end of that. And even to this day, I can be quite quick to just get to the point on an email. So, you know, someone will send me an email and say, you know, what do you think about this? And I'll go. And then actually what I learned through just that one hour, that's all it took. And those, those, those lessons still resonate today is thanks very much. I really appreciate. That's a really good viewpoint. Um, then you go into, into have you thought about it and just, you know, just soften it a little bit. Um, because the environment and the way people receive information has to be different for different people, whereas it was really two dimensional, it was all full of ex-military people. Just get to the point, I think I got hit over the head with a plastic water bottle in one, one, uh, in one board meeting, and I'm fed up with you. Shut up, you know, Bob. Um, and yeah, and, uh, I, I enjoyed that environment and, uh, but it, it's not, it's not sort of inclusive and it's not dynamic. So, you know, I'm actually a champion for, for women insecurity, you know? Mm-hmm. I, I believe in gender balance. I'm trying to encourage people and, uh, we've got some people in our business that have been either wi, have either won or been fine. This in the Women Insecurity Award over the last two years, um. Honestly, I think women are more sensible than men. They don't wanna do the frontline 60 hours, days, and night rosters. Make them right, but in management roles and not just back office roles in terms of finance and, and hr, there's definitely a role to play and I'm seeing a different dynamic in our client base. You know, we deal with a lot with property managing agents. Um, a lot of our clients are women between 25 and 45. And they don't wanna see like 52-year-old gray hair bloke. You know, I'm sure they, I'm sure they enjoy my company for the time, but we need to have teams that reflect and resonate with, with our clients.
Yoyo:Yeah.
Paul:Um, and it's, and, and I think that's a, the people bring a different skill set and a different perspective. And we've got some single parent working mothers that are in management roles. So I'm far better than I was because I understand what that looks like and how that has to be flexible. And, you know, one of my bid team kinda shuts off at three o'clock, does a family thing till three, till six, and then comes back. And all those flexible work patterns that need to enable people to thrive. Um, uh, but to still have that work life balance and still manage family and be responsible parents and all the other things. So that is a very different landscape to, to 20 years ago. Um, and I'm really enjoying that bit actually and trying to get the best out of that and support people through that process and champion it as best as I possibly can.'cause I think it's. You know, it's, it's better when we have different perspective, views, backgrounds, styles, and everything else. Um, I think as an industry, we are diverse in our workforce, but clearly at boardroom level, there's still some challenges around ethnicity and, and, and the presence of women. My counter argument to that, and not defending it in any way is the reason that a lot of the people, people like me who are 52 years old, that are sitting in the senior roles, we've been doing it for 30 years, and we've got to that position over that time because we've been in it and we've, we've grown into those roles. So my, my hope is, is that we will see a more diverse and gender balanced boardroom. And certainly you can see lots of businesses coming up now that are very female driven or owned. Yeah. That over time, in five, 10 years time, that that will balance out naturally because it's, it's far more open to people moving into it. Um, and that that's gotta be a better, better environment for us all. I think.
Yoyo:And I see this also as a judge, you know, quite often I get the lifetime achievement section and you know, it, there's very little, uh, representation of color and, and gender that's different. And, you know, guy Matthias and I, we, we just having a little chin rag over a glass of Prosecco at one of these events as you do. And I just said, you know, we're just gonna have to give it some time because there aren't enough women lifetime achievers that have got 30 years behind them of, you know, successful leadership in the security industry. But more importantly, what I really do love to see in those lifetime achievement categories is what those candidates are doing outside of what would be on their cvs. This is where I think the real value comes in, and I'd like to talk to you about what you are doing to help the next generation and pay it forward and all of the other things that you do outside of your normal day job. Paul.
Paul:So I think some of it sort of crosses the boundary of, of in and out. Um, but I'm involved with Shake It All about. Yeah, exactly. But, um, certainly selective individuals. I'm, I'm not mentoring per se, but I like having conversations about, you know, what are their aspirations and how do they want to go about what, what are their career paths. I, I, I'm, I'm at the stage in my career where I'm enjoying seeing other people thrive, survive, and are gonna come through as the next generation, uh, actively involved with a number of organizations outside of the day-to-day business that are in this area. So, tiny G for example, um, so Tiny G is a counter-terrorism network, predominantly UK and the us, but becoming increasingly global. Uh, I was chair of that. I'm sitting on the International advisory board now, but I was chair of that for three years. And one of the things we did was we championed diversity on, on that group.'cause as you can imagine, sort of counter-terrorism to. Five, 10 years ago was lots of ex-police officers, very male-oriented, and they're tremendous experts. And I'll talk separately about my, my, my renewed, um, admiration and respect for, for police and, and, uh, and government. Actually, I've learned through that. But, uh, we, we changed the, we changed the, the gender balance on, on that group, um, bringing in some other areas. So you've got Danta, who's in Chicago. Mm-hmm. Amazing. Who's, yeah. Uh, and cyberspace that you would recognize.
Yoyo:Mm-hmm.
Paul:Um, yeah, Faye Tenet, who is Parliament and then Royal Households now at Silverstone, you know, she's a very strong voice in that, uh, Sarah Cork. Um, and obviously one of the people that was my, my deputy has now just been a promoted chief of staff, Emma Shaw, who,
Yoyo:mm-hmm. Through
Paul:esoteric, through counter surveillance is now Yeah. A very big industry voice and. Uh, leading panels and championing things. So, uh, that is a good way to, to have the one to many voice. So we've done preventing violence against women and girls as initiatives. Worked with British Transport Police. Lucy Dorsey is on the Advisory Council, became Chief Constable of British Transport Police. Mm-hmm. Came to us and said, we know you guys are good at doing, uh, conferences, and we've got some very good, generous benefactors who let us use their spaces for free. So we contacted Aviva and we put on a, uh, a Preventing Violence against Women and Girls Conference, where at the time the, uh, guy from BTP who was leading that pool, um, he's now at Mighty as an employee, but he presented, uh, and it was the first time I was there. Yeah. And the first time in the room. Mean, there was a proper blend between security, threat risk, and counselors and professionals and lots of HR directors and, uh, a very, very different mix of people in the audience. And I think that's the power of that group. It has the, the opportunity to amplify. I mean, I think it was 250 spaces we sold out in four hours, had 150 people on the reserve list. Um, and so that is a really powerful tool around a number of different things. Being able to get government speakers to amplify their voice, the NPSA, um, uh, the, the security service, whoever it might be. Um, and I think that that's a really valuable tool and, and every single person gives their time for free. There is nothing in that. It's genuinely people giving their time to, to try and help, um, protect public safety. It all goes back to public safety and protection of life.
Yoyo:But you know what was also good about that? It's not just the event itself. I, I met so many people there that I'm now connected with. It was a great networking event. And I think especially the ViiV, the Aviva location is phenomenal. I think we should just hold them more often, even if they're bi-annually or annually.
Paul:Yeah. Well, I think, yeah, I mean, we can, we can run as many events as people want us to. I mean, it's a very small team that actually sort of lead those, so there's a bandwidth challenge because everyone's doing it on top of their day job. Yeah. Um, but, but if there is a topic that is relevant, then people can certainly give us their ideas. And, for example, if you had something that was particularly of interest that you think would be in and around that CT space, and I've got a really short attention span. I, I wouldn't diagnose myself as having any sort of A DHD or anything. I just an in conference. Um. I don't like 15 speakers all talking at me for 45 minutes. So, you know, we, we have more dynamic sessions, so one or two keynotes, lots more panels. And I think what the panel session does compared to just people delivering information, is it, it's very quickly open to the floor and the people in the audience get direct access to incredible subject matter experts. I think that's one of the biggest differentiators that Tiny G has. The, the quality of the panelists and the speakers, I believe is exceptional as subject matter experts in their respective fields. And it's free to attend so you can literally, it doesn't cost you a penny. That comes with some challenges because if you don't pay for it, you don't put a value on it. It's easy just to not turn up if you can't be bothered. So there's a probably a 30% dropout rate, so we take that into account and the rooms are always full anyway.
Yoyo:Mm-hmm.
Paul:Um, but anyone can go on, sign up, get in the room, providing that their, uh, clearance checks out. Okay. And talk to specialists and SMEs at a very, very high level, be they government or police or private security or particular skill sets or trade association or body. Um, and that goes back to pushing out knowledge. You know, ultimately we want people in places to be as safe as possible and in the event, so that's preparedness would be the, the phrase that we would capture that under. But also in the event that should something go wrong, that people are more equipped to be able to respond to that. So now you'll always find Janice and her team there who are really positive around, and they turn up at every event around and, uh, emergency trauma packs and stuff. So, you know, that first five minutes after a major incident that the skill skillset that's missing because it's not mandatory. And that's where Martins Law and other things come in to have a guaranteed minimum level of capability to stop someone potentially dying or losing a limb in that first five, 10 minutes afterwards. And having the people that have got the skills to respond to effectively as possible. And that's all through the generosity of some great sponsors, uh, some great partners in terms of giving us the space and the, the, the, the quality of the subject matter experts that prepare to give their time for free to come and share that knowledge and wisdom with other people. So it's a really powerful tool. I
Yoyo:think we just need more of it, Paul, but, um, look, uh, where was I going next? Couple more questions really. Uh, where does the focus need to be for young professionals then now? Because this is something that you personally advocate for, isn't it?
Paul:I do, I think I'm struggling in our own organization to, to find, uh, good quality mid senior level operators actually. Um, so sort of account directors, key account directors, you know, we are, we are on the search for those people that are outstanding or, or very good in that field. Um, and there's a gap. There's definitely a gap. So. So the answer to it is if, if it doesn't exist in the market, and that's a worry for me, you know, where's, you know, I keep getting asked the question, where's the next Paul Harvey coming from? Or where's the next lander coming from? Um, you know, they're, they're in pockets, but it's, it's not an attractive industry. When we are in it and you see it and you live it and you breathe it, you realize how brilliant it can be, how interesting it can be, and how diverse it can be. You know, there's loads of different areas of cyber. There's loads of areas of physical security. There's consultancy, there's all of those, those areas, leadership, management, PLCs, private companies, canine, you know, it's a great, great industry, but from the outside in, it doesn't look great. So if we are not attracting people into that from, from other areas. And to a degree, you need to have subject matter experience and expertise in order to be successful. And if you're gonna give protective security advice and deliver a service to a major asset or even any building, you've gotta know what you're doing. Um, so you need people that have that blend of, uh, skills, expertise, and experience, but at the same time that you wanna encourage young people through. So what we're doing in our organization, and one of the things I certainly will be trying to push for through various, uh, bodies at the moment, like the skills board and the S 12 that's suddenly been formed recently, um, is around guaranteed minimum standards of competency. And what that means is training plans for middle managers that are the account directors of tomorrow that are a blend of the skills you need in terms of management. Managing yourself. Uh, confidence, presentation skills, um, but also technical from our perspective. Uh, physical security. So technically competent, good security professionals that go beyond just doing an ACT course online that are actually trained in behavior recognition. And they don't have to be experts. Experts in everything, but they have to have a broad range. So we've developed a matrix of. 35 different competencies around security, which will enable someone who's come from being a site manager that's in a junior operations role to go into a senior operations role to become the account directors of tomorrow. Um, so if they're not there, you've gotta grow your own, for one of the better phrase.
Yoyo:Mm-hmm.
Paul:Um, and that takes vision and commitment and everything else. Time. And I think, yeah. And I think the skills board has a role to play in that at the moment, their focus is on attracting and retaining staff to the industry and what does that look like? And then if that can move forwards into, into guaranteed minimum standards of competency'cause mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I operate a non frontline license now'cause I haven't bothered to reset my, uh, my, my frontline license skills. Uh, uh yet. I will do that at some point because I still think it's important. Um. But that's the only piece of paper, which basically is a criminal records check. Nothing more. It doesn't tell you about whether I'm any good. That's the only bit of paper I need. And potentially as a consultant, don't need in order to give you advice as to how to protect people's life or how to respond to a major incident. There is no, uh, you know, if I want my boiler serviced at home, you need a gas safe certificate engineer to do it. And yet I could go to the O2 tomorrow. And convince someone that I know what I'm talking about. And if I talk confidently enough, whether I'm right or wrong, it doesn't necessarily matter.'cause if I know more than the other person, then I talk confidently. Then maybe they'll consider me as an expert and give loads and loads of advice about what certain it might all be wrong. Yeah. Uh, and it's not based on anything other than, you know, I've been doing it for 30 years, so I must be all right. So I, you know, one of the things I, I'd like to see is moving the competency level of those giving advice and managing service to, to be at guaranteed minimum level, um, so that you get good advice. You know, and, uh, if, if I woke up in the middle of heart surgery for whatever bizarre reason that would be, and the, uh, the surgeon said, well, yeah, I didn't really go to medical school. I haven't really done much training. I kind of watched a few YouTube things and I picked up a few articles, but nothing's gone wrong so far, so I'm sure you'll be all right. I, I think I'd be quite concerned and. If you apply that logic bizarrely to a different environment where we operate, you know, that comes back to credibility. And credibility leads to better standards. And also better standards lead to things like better margins and actually people placing a value on the role that we provide around public safety and protection of life.'cause it's a really important topic and it's very expensive.
Yoyo:So this leads quite nicely onto Martin's Law, really. Uh, we, I mean, I, I don't know what rock you would've had to have been under if, if, if you haven't heard of Martin's Law. Bearing in mind though, the Security Circle podcast is listened to in like 1,909 cities around the world, there will be a lot of people who haven't heard about it, but it's going to give us a standard, a baseline, isn't it, uh, for operating businesses. How do you see it working?
Paul:I think, first of all, I agree with that statement. You know, back to my previous point of just a few minutes ago, is a guaranteed minimum standard. Um, if, let's, let's, we are just members of the public at this point. Yeah. If you are going to a venue and you see someone who's in a security access control role in a high vis, you know, being present, checking the area, maybe checking your, uh, pass or your ticket to allow you access to entry, you did, you should expect those people to know what to do. Either a, that they have some form of base behavioral recognition training to spot things. You know, I don't think you're ever gonna stop people if people want to, if bad guys do bad things. Um, and you're never gonna stop them, but you can potentially prevent them or push them to somewhere else. And if you keep pushing them further and further away, then then, you know, that's part of the, part of the strategy. But at the moment, there's no guarantee that that person in that high-vis has even done ACT training and has no security awareness training. And the other is training
Yoyo:is awesome, isn't it? I mean, it's so impactful to go into London, into a police station and be given a special counter-terrorism course specifically for the climate and the risks that we're facing today. It was one of the most impactful training sessions I've ever done, and I think they've, it's not so readily available now. Is it Paul,
Paul:you're just looking it online. It's online. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's online. It's online. Cool. It's online. Yeah. You can do it. Um. And it is just about, you know, if you see something that doesn't look right, report it to someone, you know, you hear that on the train all the time. British Transport please. You know, if you see something that's not right, see it.
Yoyo:Say it sorted. Yeah, yeah.
Paul:See it, say it sorted. 6 1 0 1 0 6 or whatever it is. Yeah, it really 6 1 0
Yoyo:6 6.
Paul:Yeah. 6 1 0 1 6. There we go. Is it? Yeah. Uh, yeah. So that campaign's working. Um, and then in the event and the unfortunate event that something should happen, you would want to know that that person in Vis knows how to deal with what comes next. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and that's in a major incident that doesn't have to be a terrorist attack. The other piece with it as well is, uh, Eric Stewart did a fantastic presentation for us once at Tiny G about the changing behavior of crowds, particularly post COVID. And it was around the European, uh, event at Wembley where it all got a bit outta control, you know, and the, the aspect is that the disruption and the disgruntledness of a, of a crowd has reduced from like 20 minutes. Taken to build up before. So to start five or six post COVID, it's really condensed. So having the skills to diffuse potentially difficult circumstances. Um, now I think what Martin's Law is trying to address, particularly the, the first part of, you know, can you prevent a major incident? And if something happens, how do you respond to it? Um, takes away the potential that you can make a commercial decision to not put things in place because it costs more money. That's, that's the challenge. If it's not mandated at a minimum level, it becomes a commercial and operational and business decision, and you can decide that in order to train everyone better and have all of those skills, it's gonna cost us 300,000 across a team of 150 people. You can decide not to do that currently. You can make that decision and say, well, what's the likelihood of anything really happening? Um, and make a decision that's, yeah. And so that guaranteed minimum standard of competency, no matter what the cost of it is and the holding. People that are making money from, from large events.'cause they're a business ultimately, you know, they're, they're, they're not putting the event on because they feel like they're generous people. They're, that they're doing that because that's their business. Um, to have responsibility for the safety of the people that are under their, their, their control. And I think to some degree, Martin's Law probably could have been brought in by a small change to health and safety. You know, the principal's the same. Yes.
Yoyo:Safeguarding even there's,'cause safeguarding is very good. What, what adults have to do now to even run a little girl's dance class in Manchester, the safeguarding is good. And it would literally mean just a couple of things on top of that. Lock the door, for example. That's
Paul:it. Yeah. Yeah. The principles around Martin's law, as it manifests itself, um, are gonna be, you know, similar to health and safety. Very much do, do your assessment, identify your risks, mitigate your risks, do the training, review it, make sure it's fit for purpose and test and exercise. And I think test and exercising is a really powerful tool within that as well. You know, don't find out that people don't know what to do at their time of a major incident.
Yoyo:Right. Practice,
Paul:practice, practice. The military. Brilliant at that, aren't they? They practice for every possible scenario, so they become second nature. Um, so I think what, you know, I, I mean fair play to, to f and the rest of the team that have campaigned for that, I'm sure there may be some frustration for them that it's gonna take two or three years to impact. And I think that's where the S 12 came in really. I think it was government looking at recommendations seven and eight from the Manchester Arena inquiry, uh, particularly around, um, those, those two particular areas and protective security within it. And all of that's given us added impotence to, to protect safety, you know, public safety. The whole point of it is public safety and. I have an expectation of where I'd like to be safe and secure when I'm taking my son to a concert or a football match or a tennis match. You know, I'm not so bothered at the local fate, and I'm sure that it fits down at the lower tier, and everyone will say, oh yeah, there's additional burden. But everyone said that around health and safety legislation is now. Intrinsically built into the way we operate. Yeah. Um, so there's always gonna be some initial resistance. Um, yeah. And there's no clarity at this moment in time about how, how tricky or easy it's gonna be for people to navigate that space. But, you know, I have an expectation that if I'm going to a venue and I'm paying a hundred pound a ticket or whatever it now is, I'd rather pay 105 pounds and know the person there knows what they're doing, you know? Correct. And, uh, you know, they have a responsibility as the organizers for those large scale events to, to be responsible for the safety as much as they can be.'cause there's no, there's no science that's going to give a hundred percent, uh, safety. You, everything's based on risk and your approach to that. But yeah, that's the, that and they are gonna be legally responsible for the safety of the people that are there. And that, that gives a guaranteed minimum standard. So that can only be a good thing.
Yoyo:What's coming up for you then, Paul?
Paul:Uh, well, I moved into, um, slightly different role where our business was, uh, acquired a couple of months ago, uh, by MCR. So this is their first step into the, the GB market. They're an Irish based, uh, security business. Um, enjoying that relationship very much. Um, I think probably the opportunity to continue to. Shape and support other people on their next phase and, and how can they take over from the, the pools in Yolandas for, for in the future? I think that's really, really keen. I'm keen to continue to support the things we do around City Security Council, tiny G at various industry events. You know, I guess my passion in that area is to try and get people to do things that are complimentary rather than just crossing over each other. So how does the Security Institute blend with the security Commonwealth that blends with Ipsa, with the BSIA with Tiny G? You know, how can we all not necessarily just purely stick to the land?'cause some of those are commercial organizations, so they've got membership, so they need to look after their members' interests. But rather than have 15 EDI forums where the same people are turning up talking about the same thing, but someone else who's sitting in the chair, can't we just have one? With the right people there. Um, and I think that's the sort of thing where something like the S 12 potentially has opportunity to, to not be the voice of security, but be the voice of the protective security personnel sector feeding into Martins Law and anything else. But, you know, let's, let's not compete in that space. Let's get the best people around the table and get their time optimized. Um, and that someone else who's specialist in the other area leading that area and bringing their stakeholders and then get that together. And I think that's what the security Commonwealth was set to do, wasn't it? It was to, to bring together all of those different areas across the, across the wider security spectrum, not just man guarding. Um, even though that's a large player in the market, it's not the only player. There's lots of other sectors as we've discussed earlier. Uh, and I've got hope that the, the Commonwealth and the S 12 find their feet so that, you know, we can actually move things forwards and not eat ourselves as an industry, which is always a temptation. It's not herding cats.
Yoyo:Well, rain wasn't built in a day, was it Paul? So there's a journey to be had here and it might mean that we go three steps forward and two steps back, but it's still forward all the time and it's still good progress. Paul, what an amazing story. What an amazing opportunity to listen, to you and everything you've had to say today. Thank you so much for joining us on the Security Circle podcast.
Paul:Thank