The Security Circle
An IFPOD production for IFPO the very first security podcast called Security Circle. IFPO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, and is an international security membership body that supports front line security professionals with learning and development, mental Health and wellbeing initiatives.
The Security Circle
EP 158 A Continent in Motion: Eva Nolle on Security, Risk, and the Future of Security Risk in Africa
🎙️ Episode Summary
A Continent in Motion: Eva Noelle on Security, Risk, and the Future of Security Risk in Africa
In this powerful year-end conversation, Eva Noelle brings rare depth, context, and realism to what it truly means to operate in security, intelligence, and risk across the African continent.
Drawing on extensive experience working across more than 50 African countries, Eva challenges Western-centric approaches to risk assessment and explains why security cannot be understood without local context, cultural intelligence, and human insight. She explores the realities of intelligence and investigations in environments where digitised records may be limited, political conditions vary widely, and assumptions can quickly become liabilities.
The discussion spans geopolitical risk, ESG and supply-chain compliance, due diligence, fraud investigations, and country risk assessments — highlighting why ESG has shifted from a “nice to have” to a compliance and investment imperative. Eva also unpacks how climate change, displacement, and geopolitical instability are increasingly interconnected, reshaping the global security landscape.
Beyond strategy, the episode offers thoughtful reflections on leadership, professional networks, and the importance of collaboration in security. Eva speaks candidly about her journey as a woman in a traditionally male-dominated field, the value of volunteering and professional service, and why security is fundamentally a team sport.
This episode is not about headlines or stereotypes. It is about nuance, realism, and understanding risk as it actually exists — across borders, cultures, and contexts.
A fitting close to 2025, this conversation invites security leaders to think bigger, listen harder, and reassess how they view Africa’s role in the future of global risk.
BIO
“Eva Nolle is the co-founder and Director of Operations for Ceravoid (Pty) Ltd, a commercial intelligence firm based in Cape Town, South Africa. Amongst others, the company provides due diligence enquiries, background screenings, country risk assessments, market entry analysis as well as commercial and fraud investigations. Throughout her career, Eva has not only worked in business intelligence but also provided crisis management training, travel security and conducts security audits of both private and commercial spaces on a regular basis.
With a European background but having lived and worked on the African continent for several years, Eva is well-positioned to build a bridge for businesses wanting to operate in Africa. Drawing on her own practical experience, she assists clients in gaining a better understanding of the potential risks when operating on the continent and how to avoid, mitigate, transfer, accept or exploit them.
Eva is a Certified Fraud Examiner as well as a Certified Protection Professional (CPP) and Professional Certified Investigator (PCI).”
https://www.linkedin.com/in/eva-n-7a8a9796/
Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers
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Yoyo:I have with me a most amazing professional lady. I think the last time we saw each other was in Orlando last year. But you had also travelled a long, long way to get to the United States, far longer than me, Ava Noel. Hello, welcome to the Security Circle Podcast. How are you doing?
Eva:I'm good. Thanks for having me. Very excited. Oh, you look really happy. I am. It's summer in Cape Town. You know, what better place to be? You know, we were just voted best city in the world. It's a magazine, so, you know, it's, it's a bit controversial. Obviously we have to do a lot, a lot of challenges here. So, you know, it's probably debatable whether we are or aren't, but, uh, you know, we're obviously riding that tail code right now that we do live in the best city in the world and, you know, I moved here from Europe, so I can only obviously underscore that and, agree.
Yoyo:You are, I think, in our security community, probably the most well known of sub African continental women in security, right? You are the Adrian Bosch of the women's sector.
Eva:I'll take that as a compliment, knowing how much you love Andrea.
Yoyo:Well, he is loved, actually. Not just for his, you know, silky voice by our listeners. Um, but he, obviously, that's the man. he's loved because of his knowledge. His product knowledge is, yeah, phenomenal. So anybody needs a new product or service, go and see that man. I have followed him around exhibitions and I've seen him like give the Spanish Inquisition to vendors around products. It's phenomenal. That's how he learns. Ava, what's it like at the moment being a woman? in security in sub Saharan Africa.
Eva:I think it's great. I think, you know, it's, it's rising. It's, you know, there's more and more. Um, six years ago when I took women in security over, um, I think we had about five local chapter members that were female. Um, there's quite a lot more now, we have started an initiative that, um, is, doesn't require membership in any organization, just to open it up more, um, we called it the South Africa Women in Security Network, and this year we are one of the official supporters of the Southern African Auspice, as that organization independently. So that's amazing, that's exciting, um. I think we still, you know, we have the same challenges as women in security in other parts of the world. Uh, although we, you know, probably do operate in an area that is a little bit more patriarchal still than others, but, uh, we have some great allies, even in this region, you know, that are championing us and, um, it's, you know, becoming more and more. And I think I personally So what about it as being a challenge that much being a woman in security? I always thought about it more as my superpower and you know, I have different skills that I bring and so, you know, that compliments everything that, you know, my male colleagues do. Uh, I have a male business partner, which, you know, we kind of did on purpose because we compliment each other so well. But, uh, I also acknowledge that there are a lot of women in our industry that weren't as fortunate as I was maybe to have met supporting colleagues so early on in my career and to be able to be part of that women's network now that supports us. other females and especially younger females joining the industry, you know, that, uh, might want to have a female mentor and ally and, uh, the support, um, is great.
Yoyo:You know, it, the world is really 50 shades of patriarchy because it literally does go sometimes quite dark and then sometimes there's a lot more light. Uh, and I think all of us are navigating all the way around. Personally, I think, you know, 2025, I'd like to have thought that we were a little bit further on. I know that there'll be many men with daughters listening, and I'm hoping that, you know, they are joining us and helping to open up those dark areas so that their daughters and their daughters, daughters, and the daughters, friends all have, you know, that opportunity to explore careers that they want to, but look, I. I remember when I was about 17, I was a DJ. I began my first career as the only woman DJ within hundreds of miles of my hometown. Now, there are lots of great DJs and social media is a great platform to see them. Um, Then I went into the police, you know, another industry where I was a minority, and then I went into the security industry, and then I went into cyber. So I can't ever look back and say, yo, yo, you know, it's not been easy. you know, blah, blah, blah. I don't have those types of conversations with myself because I chose those industries for a reason. So there must be something in me that's quite happy to challenge the status quo in terms of what norms look like. Do you think there's a little bit of that in you?
Eva:I think so. I mean, you know, I think I'm one of the people that really stumbled into this industry by accident. you know, it wasn't really ever sought out as such. Um, and then when I studied, because I studied risk and security management, so I'm actually, you know, um, have an academic background in the field and we were more females than males in my class. So, you know, we were the first group in that course of studies and we were kind of a trial run, but nonetheless, you know, all the lecturers thought it was weird. So, I don't think I sorted out as much, but I think I grew up not really, you know, being taught that I need to listen to my limitations or something other people say. And, you know, if I set my mind to something, then I, I kind of go for it. And so, yeah, so I didn't ever really think about it. Maybe naively, but I think in the end of the day, it maybe was a blessing to not really paying attention to. Is this weird? Is it male dominated? You know, should I be feeling some type of way, but just kind of going out while I'm, you know, and this is what I want to do and what I enjoy doing. So
Yoyo:look, I'm going to ask you quite a deep question now. I interviewed, as I mentioned earlier, Bill Tenney, who's the CEO for ASIS. And, we talked about the 70 years of ASIS And what he did do, extraordinarily, was read out the five reasons ASIS was started back in 70 years ago, whenever that was, in the 50s, 55, I think, and that's how good my math is. and they were exactly the same reasons. We exist today and we must exist today. One of them was geopolitical. one of them, you know, I'm not doing it any justice. He just read out five reasons and they were, they were all incredibly relevant. So there's part of you as a skeptic in the security industry, you know, that thinks, Oh my gosh, as a human race, have we not moved on? No, we haven't. But what has it been like in Africa? Because there are a lot of people, and I know that you can't speak for the whole of the continent, it's a very large continent, but there are a lot of people that have a lot of gaps in knowledge. What's the sort of journey been like for Africa's history in terms of a security professional?
Eva:All right. Well, I only joined that history about 15 years ago when I moved into the continent. So obviously I only have a bit of a,, snapshot, but I think obviously, you know, the continent has a very big history of, colonization and,, not independently functioning. There was, only one country on the continent that has never been colonized. Some countries have only had a very short, comparatively short period of time now, you know, where politically things change. So, I think this continent is on a very big journey and, obviously that influences, you know, politics. Um obviously also even borders are still to this day influenced by the history of the continent, right? Because the powers that be, if you will, divided countries and,, that can lead to conflicts today that we're seeing because of the history and because those borders didn't organically, happen. So I think, it's a continent that is still, in some parts really grappling with its history, but also has made amazing strides and, has really empowered itself over the last couple of years, especially. it's exciting to be part of it and seeing all the, The positives and the changes and we can always look at the negatives and we can always concentrate on the challenges, but also I think in that we sometimes forget. What amazing things and opportunities are here. And it's the youngest continent. I just read the other day, the UN predicts that by 2050, which is not so far off, every fourth person in the world is from the African continent. So there is a large power on this continent that I think, gets underestimated quite a bit. And yeah, I'm excited to see, where it's going.
Yoyo:It's quite challenging, is it, to work across the African continent because you're dealing with a lot of different types of laws and regulations. What's that like for a security professional to navigate, Eva?
Eva:I think one of the greatest skills you can have as a security professional is to listen and to be open and, have a network wherever you work. we operate across the continent with a network of people that can tell us about the laws and the regulations. But I think even more so also the cultural differences, right? As you said, this is a very large continent. We're talking about 54 African countries. so the culture is vast and the culture in many of those countries is also vast. So there's not one culture in each of those countries. So like having the ability to listen and to really kind of just go in with no Predeposition of how it's supposed to be and how it's supposed to run, right? Because every country in the world, whether it's Africa or any other country has their own way of operating. So when you go into that country and operate, you need to understand. What is the local way of doing things? You can't come with your pre perceived idea of, well, this is how we do it in the UK or the US and that's why it should, obviously there's a lot that works similar, but there's also differences. And, you know, I think as a security professional, it's important to, to kind of take note of that and really adapt your strategies. to that because it's just going to assist you in, you know, whatever you're trying to achieve there.
Yoyo:I wonder how many of our listeners would know how many countries there are in the continent of Africa? In fact, you told me because I didn't know this answer. There are 54 altogether in the continent and you in your business, you cover 51, don't you?
Eva:Well, so far we have covered 51. Yes, I'm waiting for the last three to be covered so that we can, complete the map. But yeah, 51 so far.
Yoyo:that's quite a big feat. in 2024, you said you've seen a shift starting with the supply chain law companies looking more into ESG. Why is ESG going to be a lot more significant going forward? And why the bigger shift towards geopolitical assessments? Thanks.
Eva:I mean, obviously like the big shift comes because until now, every factor that is included under ESG was really a nice to have, right? It was part of your corporate social responsibility. It was an ethical thing for an entity. Now it's becoming a compliance issue. It's becoming an investment issue because investors are looking at it. And obviously we're seeing more and more laws popping up, that do prescribe that you have to vet your supply chain and know that there are no transgressions. So that's the big shift that we're seeing. When it comes to geopolitical assessments, obviously, that's kind of the starting point, right? Because as it's so new that companies have to look at it, we all have to do it based on a risk based approach. We can't vet the entire supply chain. Of, a big corporate company all at once. So, we look at a risk based approach, we identify what does the, what are the industries or countries we operate in that have the highest risk for transgressions. However, with geopolitical changes. that risk matrix that you've been working on might shift. And all of a sudden, you have to vet companies sooner that you might have not had on your radar before. But also I think it's because, we tend to still look at the ESG part. In isolation, and if anything is far away, then probably don't have to deal with it, but we were just looking at it the other day with colleagues and discussing it, and the reality is, it's a chain effect, right? If you look at the E and environmental issues, we have droughts in countries where there's never been droughts, we have floods where there's never been floods. And this over time. Is going to result in areas becoming not conducive to living spaces anymore. So now, you know, there's been a study by the Institute for Economics and Peace that predicts that 1. 2 billion people in 25 years have to be displaced because of the climate change. So they have to go somewhere, right? So that becomes the social, the S part of it, because now we need to rehouse 1. 2 billion people, if you will. And we've seen it in the past that those kinds of things can have a major global effect, right? I mean, Europe, here in countries are at odds with each other and closing borders because they don't know how to deal with the refugee crisis. So this is only going to escalate. So from a geopolitical point of view, we have to monitor. What's going on globally, and not something that is just affecting us right now. Because those things that are happening in other countries right now, can affect us in the medium to long term, or sometimes even short term. Yeah?
Yoyo:Yeah, look, it's a very difficult subject, but it's a subject that, uh, crisis leads globally, have been warning about now for a long, long time, is the displacement of humans due to environmental, Uh, and climate related factors and I don't know, look, I remind myself every day that I'm very privileged to wake up where I wake up and to be born where I'm born. But I think for the most skeptical among us, you know, we have to remember that that's a privilege that we were born into in the sense that the opposite can be the case for others. And how is that a factor for you in terms of security, as a security professional? How are these increasing issues becoming relevant?
Eva:I think it's becoming more complex for us as security professionals because we have to, take so many more factors into account as the world is becoming more global and, we are supposed to, have the answers to many questions and be able to, forecast certain risks in a best case scenario that we don't have all the information for yet, you know. So I think it is a challenge to really You know, be able to take everything into account that, can impact our companies that we work for, as clients or as, in house security professionals and, really make a good educated decision here on, what our best recommendation would be.
Yoyo:Ava, you told me that you work in intelligence and investigations on the Africa continent. Uh, there are a number of differences and you explained early on that you don't have a lot of digitized databases in Africa and it can affect, the intelligence and investigations, very much indeed, the lack of databases making it much harder. What's the reason for this and what do you see, what does good look like, in the future?
Eva:Well, I mean, digitization started, a lot later in Africa than in other countries,, and again, back to the history of the continent also, you have, regime changes in certain countries and then databases maybe started all over again. So you don't have the continuity necessarily in some. So, I mean, we're seeing, great strides being made and, compared to like, 15, 16 years ago, when I started on this continent, like it has improved immensely. we are making progress, but it's still obviously then archived material, is, not accessible or still in paper files or things get lost and, and not moved properly or not. Yeah. So, It's a fun challenge to try and, you know, get, uh, get certain information where, where no databases exist and you have to become, creative and see how else you can get it or what, how you can locate certain information that you need. So, and I mean, it's also no secret that, I mean, South Africa where I live. The greatest example, until last year, we had a lot of power cuts on a regular basis. Touch wood, you haven't experienced that in, the last 300 days or so. but it's,, likely to come back and then if power is down, there is a difficulty in getting access to certain databases, even if they exist. So it's, yeah.
Yoyo:Help us to understand why, you're still getting power cuts.
Eva:Oh boy, that's a loaded question. I don't want to be thrown out of this country. you should see my face. I was like, right. So, I mean, the main reason is, there is still a state monopoly in this country on power and, the state monopoly had, a lot of issues in terms of, keeping up to date with it. maintenance and everything started to be outdated. We have a very fast growing population. So even if, you did the maintenance, you would have had to increase the power and then You know, there's also no secret that we had a very big corruption scandal a couple of years ago in this country that went to the highest echelons and, that impacted state owned entities and that one was one of it. So, I
Yoyo:mean, look, it's been threatened in the past here in the United Kingdom, but, you know, And I think for us to have power cats, they'd have to sort of grossly underestimate, you know, um, unforeseen cold weather for prolonged spells. And we don't often get that here, but the minute we go into a cold snap, you know, you can see everyone's trembling. What have we got enough gas? You know, it's just crazy. We, we. mine it. We don't mine gas. You know, we drill for it in the, in the North Sea. It just feels odd sometimes when I look at the news thinking I've grown up in a country where we've always has gas as a natural resource. I don't understand how it could run out. I'm sure there'll be people listening who have a far more intelligent response to that question. of which I don't, but Ava, what other challenges do you have there that we wouldn't even dream of having in the UK?
Eva:It's a constantly changing environment, sometimes for the better, because, we're getting new databases or things like that, sometimes we're going maybe a bit backwards, but so it's constantly changing. So whenever we do talk to clients about certain requests, I often have to tell them like, well, let me double check. Whether it's still possible to get that information or not and like what has changed since the last time we've done it. So there is no straightforward answer half the time. I think the other difference also is the political climate in certain countries, right? Um, so we have some countries on the continent that are run very differently to countries and what is maybe,, acceptable in terms of, asking questions or something about an individual or a company or a situation might not be in certain African countries because of the regime that is there. And, that is something that. I think it's sometimes difficult to understand from a Western perspective that, it's, why is it taking so long, or, why is it, so much more expensive than in the UK, certain things or whatever, right? So,, we are contesting with the political climate and the changes there, and, you know, it's, uh, It's a continent in motion, as we said earlier, so, we sometimes do experience protests in certain countries that can escalate very quickly and that, kind of delay projects, for quite a while, because, you know, nobody can really move anywhere until it's over or things like that, so it is a very different and. environment to operate in, from Europe. But I think, what makes it a little bit easier for me in terms of working with others on this is that I had to walk that walk and understand, try and understand the continent as much as I can. And I'm still learning every day new things, So having come with a Western perspective, having, you know, been brought up in Europe makes it Sometimes a little bit easier to explain to others, like why certain things work the way they do.
Yoyo:Give us a case study or an example of something that has been a great success story for you.
Eva:I mean, we focus a lot on what's called human intelligence and speaking to people, you know, and not just going through databases and not just going through, you know, media or whatever. And I think the greatest success stories for us are always the cases where the, the humans that we speak to and that, you know, give us information on a company or something where they really make a difference, right? If everything looks great from a governance point of view and the public records are fine and the media is all positive. But then if you speak to, you know, former employees that talk about, you know, unsafe working conditions and, you know, how they were not well paid or, you know, in one instance, we, you know, had indications of child labor being used there. And, you know, so that's really where. It's very rewarding in terms of what we do because it just, you know, proves the point of it can look all great from one perspective, but the real value lies in, you know, the, the people that know. And that have interactions with, a company, an individual or, whatever. And then the other side is obviously that we do fraud investigations, and they can be the fun part because it's not a compliance tick the boxes, but, We had one case that we always refer to as catch me if you can, because we, in the beginning didn't even know who he was and like what country that person came from and, and it was months long investigations over multiple jurisdictions and, in the end of the day, The client had an indication that he was flying out that night from one airport to the next and by chance, when we contacted one of our contacts in that country to see whether they can, maybe go to the airport, see what they can do and see that person they were like, Oh, well, we actually by accident on the same flight we booked on the anyway, so we'll have a look out. so that's obviously sometimes it's luck. Other times it's, obviously knowing what you do, but, uh, those are the fun, investigations, but also fun because, you're really making a difference. Right. And you're really helping a client with a challenge. Um, on the flip side of the coin, I always, you know, say that it's really rewarding also if there's nothing right. If we do a due diligence compliance check and there's nothing because in the end of the day, all those things, hopefully at the end of the day lead to an economic decision that investments are being made into Africa, that we see. Partnerships form that are so vital and, it's a small but different kind of contribution to really try and, foster the climate here on the continent and really, also enable companies that are above board because they are so many, to actually form the partnerships that are important for them with, the clients that we work for.
Yoyo:So you also provide due diligence inquiries, background screenings, country risk assessments, asset tracing, market entry analysis, as well as commercial and fraud investigations. That's a really tasty list, Ava.
Eva:Yes, it's a long list. Um, it's a fun list,, I think, like I say, all of those services. Um, can be interesting and, important for different reasons. And, it keeps us on our toes for sure.
Yoyo:It must also benefit, especially, overseas clients that you have a European background. And so you can almost, use two different perspectives when supporting a client, right?
Eva:No, a hundred percent. intelligence is always such a big word, right? It's like, it's thrown around so much and, but if you break it down, right, it's information plus the context plus analysis, right? So that's really like, where the value for the client lies. So having the ability to recognize what context does the client from Europe need to understand this better is obviously, making it a bit easier for me To meet them halfway, and you know, one of my lecturers at Varsity always said, you have to fetch the client where they're at. So, um, Yeah, I'll try to fetch them where they are and, you know, walk that journey with them and, explain the complexities because sometimes it might look strange from a Western perspective, but it's completely normal. Nothing to worry about in the context of, where you're going.
Yoyo:So what's your favorite type of client in terms of, when you get that inquiry and you're like, yes, I love doing this stuff. What are they looking for?
Eva:I think it's more the in depth ones. Right? Like, the compliance ones, like I said, can be fun, but like, the more the in depth of like, I really want to understand this country or, you know, where we're operating and, and, um, really want to, to get to, to the bottom of it. And, you know, let's have a conversation about how best we can get there and, uh, you know, scope for the client of this is how we. Going to get you the results that you want, right? Like I enjoy crossword puzzles as much as puzzles. And I think, you know, that's maybe that part of me that really enjoys of a client just comes with an objective and a goal. And it's just like, right, this is what we're trying to understand. And. How can you help us? And then, you know, digging deep into it. And, you know, sometimes you learn something new about the bread industry in the Congo that you never thought you would learn, because all of a sudden, you know, you have to look into it and get information and trying to figure it out and, you know, yeah.
Yoyo:It must be really important for businesses to do country risk assessments if they're looking to expand their business geographically, right? I
Eva:think, you know, the, the more foreign it is to you, the more you should probably do it. But also I think sometimes we have a thought security in how well do I know a country, right? South Africa, we see it a lot. I mean, and I've heard it from other security professionals that, you know. You're trying to do a security briefing and, you know, staff is saying, well, we've been there on holiday. So it's fine. Um, you know, because South Africa, like everybody knows someone that's been here or, you know, they've been here themselves. So South Africa, I think gives the full sense sometimes of like what people think about it or know about it. But, yeah, the more foreign, the more you should probably, get the local. knowledge and I mean, it doesn't matter whether you're a security professional or not, like you will always need it, right? Like, I mean, I was in Kenya last year when the protests broke out there and I had amazing colleagues by my side that were security professionals in Nairobi that could tell me exactly what to do and what not to do. And I trusted them. A million percent in following their guidelines and, listening to what they have to say because they know. What to look out for, and they know their city, so it's so vital to have that local partner that can tell you exactly what's what, if you will.
Yoyo:Do you have an example where a client's asked you to do a country risk assessment and your findings have been such that they have decided not to invest in that country?
Eva:A lot of times we don't necessarily hear what the ultimate decision of the client was, right? That's, that's their decision to make, I mean, we've, I know about a couple of cases where it was, maybe not necessarily based on the country itself, but the potential partner that they were going with didn't quite pan out to be the partner that they thought that was. And, yeah, but countries as a whole, I don't think so, because I think if a company makes a decision to go into a specific country, and then, oftentimes they will, and they already have some basic knowledge, and then it's just kind of we come in when it's about the question of how can we do it, right? How can we keep our staff safe if we send expats or how, do we educate people that travel to that region on how to move about in the country or how do we partner with the best company possible? So we come in more with a how than the very basic decision.
Yoyo:Yeah, I like that. And I'm thinking as well if you're gonna invest in a business partner in a certain country where you don't know the lay of the land and checking out that business partner is gonna be absolutely critical, isn't it?
Eva:Oh, yes, but it's not only just, you know, I mean, it's an economically critical thing, right? You don't want to partner with someone that's gonna Not do what they said they would do but also for most companies. It's a legal requirement by now, right? We have the bribery act in the uk. We have the fcpa in the us so they have very huge economic implications for a client if you know you partner with the wrong person, so Having those checks and balances in place in the beginning rather than a couple of years down the line when it's kind of too late is, probably well advised and I think most businesses by now have the procedures in place of if and when they, check their business partners.
Yoyo:Which is a great segue into the EU directive that's coming. How's that going to impact?
Eva:Well, I think, it's obviously going to start off slow. I think it's going to be a bit like the GDPR, where you have a grace period for companies to comply. And then at the end of the grace period, everybody realizes we should have done something, a long time ago, but, uh, obviously, As it stands now, the EU directive, very openly says you have to conduct your diligence on, partners in your supply chain. And that's obviously also going to have a trickle effect because if I'm in your supply chain, you're probably going to pawn it off on me to check my supply chain because, indirectly, they're part of your supply chain. So even though it only targets, very big corporates in the beginning now, because it's based on turnover and how many staff companies have and so on. It's going to trickle down. I don't think we're going to see that tomorrow. I mean, we seeing it already that companies more and more that, ask us for assistance, start feeding questions of, human rights, abuses, environmental issues into their normal due diligence, because you already have a due diligence. System and like in place mostly, right? the most companies that are now having to do it. So they just slotting it in, because if you do an anti corruption compliance due diligence, you may as well, ask about environmental issues, human rights abuses, and all those fun things. But, it's going to come as it stands and, companies will have to adjust and, make sure that they tick their boxes there.
Yoyo:Is it
Eva:going to make things better, Ava? Honestly, I don't necessarily think so. It's
Yoyo:Say it how you see it.
Eva:Look, don't get me wrong. It's, you know, it's a noble, approach. And obviously it's a very important thing that we should all take note of, right? Like, but, I mean, the thing would be, you're not going to do business with me, right? Because I have certain transgressions, but someone else might, is it really going to stop me from doing whatever I'm doing wrong? Right. So, you know, I might get better at hiding it. So, I think in the medium term, it's not really going to make a difference. As such, but I also think it's an important step to, to recognize that those things are issues and then, you have to start somewhere and you have to tackle it in some form or the other. And, I mean, we've seen the extractive industry having, the voluntary principles for a long, long time now, and it's still an industry that is, very much struggling with those issues. So it's not. You having something in place doesn't mean that you're actually going to solve the problem, but we'll have to start somewhere and I'm glad to see we're starting somewhere, because there is obviously, especially on the African continent, I think it was a long time, a continent that, was looked at as, okay, well, yeah. It's cheap here and labor's cheap and, there's certain things you can, probably get away with because there isn't as many governance and laws in place as in other countries and, to put hopefully at some point a global framework in place that's going to protect everybody and anybody I know is a very noble ideal to have, but,, I'm not giving up hope that at some point we can change certain things in this world.
Yoyo:Yeah, absolutely. I sat drinking a whiskey a while back with Adrian and with,, Bruce Bays actually, another brother from another mother. and basically they were telling me about British colonial history, things that we were never taught. in our education system in school, and I'll never forget that conversation. It was very brief, but it opened my eyes to the fact that, it is important to see your own nation through the eyes of other nations and to understand, You've only got to have a slight history of Africa to know that it's never been really managed very well. If if Africa as a continent was managed in the same way that United States is managed, for example, you can imagine how much more of a force to be reckoned with that it would be with all of its natural minerals and resources. I just feel like. Over the centuries, it's just been, it's massively been held back and I can't help but think that's been for a reason I see the geopolitical chessboard moving, and I don't think that Africa's necessarily had a great start off the block. I'm sure you know many people have different opinions but I love to hear opinions through, other people's eyes Ava. I think it's fair to say that you've also had, a career as a volunteer. I can see that you've been with ASIS probably as long as I have. And you are now the what? The, regional vice President.
Eva:I
Yoyo:How cool is, like, I've known you all this time and I didn't know that you were the A SIS Regional Vice President, ava. Yes.
Eva:No, I'm for the one of the Sub-Saharan Africa regions. Yes.
Yoyo:Yeah. Well done. why is it important to you to have a voluntary career running alongside your normal day job?
Eva:I was at a conference once where a fellow colleague talked about, working in the security industry is like playing tiki taka football. Now, I don't know whether you are familiar with football. It's a football style that is, Barcelona is very known for it. But basically, the style is that you always kind of find the team in a triangle formation, like three players. So if I pass my ball, I'm going to make sure that I run back into that formation somehow. So that the player that has the ball can also see me well and knows where to pass the ball to. So that colleague was arguing and saying like, look, the adversaries are playing, right? And we have to play together. And if we don't position ourselves in a way that we're visible to our colleagues that may need us. Right. And that may need to play the ball to us, then,, we doing a disservice to our entire team of security professionals. And I thought that was such an amazing analogy, not only because I'm a big football fan, but also because of how it's so true, right. I think we, one of the professions, I mean, there's plenty of others, but like one of the professions that we can't. work in isolation. We are so dependent on our colleagues and our colleagues knowledge and, having people to bounce ideas with and brainstorm and, learn best practices. And in order for me to learn that from my colleagues, I need to have access to them, but also hopefully I'm give access to them so that they, know where to go if they ever, have a question that they think I might have an answer to or,, worst case scenario, just be an ear to listen and say, okay, well, maybe I would approach it that way, even if I didn't have all the answers. So. And, volunteering is a great way to really increase your network and really like, meet people from so many different sectors of the industry. And like you said in the beginning, if you want to know about a product speak to Adrian because he knows everything. I don't work with physical security on a day to day basis. I know the basics, but. I know I have someone in my network I can ask if I ever needed, more in depth knowledge and volunteering is so rewarding. I've volunteered all my life with different organizations. So the whole volunteering aspect isn't new to me since I joined the industry. And it's just so rewarding on, on so many levels. And I think it's not to be seen as a separate entity to my day job. but a very big part of my day job, right? To, in order for me to do my day job right and as best as I can, it's just so enriching to, to do the volunteering.
Yoyo:And we wouldn't have met either, would we, if it wasn't for us both being in the same security network.
Eva:I know, right? We met at happy hour during COVID. I know. Do you know? On the
Yoyo:Digital happy hour. Let's make that clear. It was a great time for me, COVID. I got a lot done. I honestly, I was more than happy. Give us a lockdown, I think, for a couple of weeks every year. I think it's what we all need. It's more personal like me. Ava though, what can I say? Finally, thank you so much for joining us on the Security Circle podcast.
Eva:Well, thanks for having me. Oh, yeah. It was a great pleasure.