EP 164 "Beyond the Trophy: How Security Awards Shape a Global Standard" with Professor Martin Gill

“A credible award doesn’t celebrate popularity — it recognises provable impact.”

Summary

🎙️ "Beyond the Trophy: How Security Awards Shape a Global Standard" with Professor Martin Gill

What does a security award really represent?

In this powerful episode of the Security Circle Podcast, Yoyo Hamblen sits down with Professor Martin Gill, founder of the Outstanding Security Performance Awards (OSPAs), to explore how credible recognition can shape global standards — and why integrity in awards matters more than ever.

With OSPAs now operating in 48 countries and judged by more than 250 independent experts worldwide, Martin shares the research, principles, and ethical framework that sit behind what many now consider the gold standard in security recognition.

But this conversation goes far beyond trophies and ceremonies.

Together, they unpack:

• Why credible award schemes scored so highly in global research on demonstrating value to stakeholders
• The importance of blind judging, independence, and consistent global criteria
• What truly separates a winning nomination from a weak one
• Why “doing your job” is not enough to be considered outstanding
• The role of storytelling — backed by evidence — in professional recognition
• And the uncomfortable truth the industry must face: security is exceptional at what it does, but poor at saying how good it is

Martin reflects on the emotional impact of recognition, the responsibility that comes with defining excellence, and why awards — when done properly — don’t create winners. They reveal them.

The episode also touches on leadership, collaboration across membership organisations, the importance of raising standards globally, and how shining a light on best practice strengthens the entire profession.

This isn’t a conversation about gala dinners.

It’s about professional maturity, measurable excellence, and the power of recognition to elevate an industry that too often operates quietly behind the scenes.

If you work in security — frontline, operational, strategic, or executive — this episode will challenge how you think about credibility, impact, and what it truly means to be outstanding.

And you'll get to learn something we all didn't know about Martin too!! (Shhhh)

Professor Martin Gill LinkedIn: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/martin-gill-b4405b82/

Security Circle ⭕️  is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

0:01

If you enjoy the security circle podcast, please like share and comment or even better. Leave us a fab review We can be found on all podcast platforms. Be sure to subscribe. The security circle every Thursday. We love Thursdays. Hi, I'm Yolanda And welcome to the Security Circle Podcast, produced in association with IFPO, the International Foundation for Protection Officers. This podcast is all about connection, bringing you closer to the greatest minds, boldest thinkers, trailblazers, and change makers across the security industry. Whether you are here to grow your network, spark new ideas, or simply feel more connected to the world of protection and risk, you are in the right place wherever you are listening from. Thank you for being a part of the Security Circle journey..

Yoyo 1:13

Martin Gill, uh, alumni for the Security Circle podcast, fellow podcast host himself. Welcome to the Security Circle podcast. How you doing?

Martin 1:22

Well, yoyo, I'm just delighted to be here with you once again, we get the chance to talk

Yoyo 1:26

and please remind me to mention the singing before the end of this interview. Okay. Look, first of all, for those that don't know, professor. Martin Gill, he created the OSPA's. Uh, my goodness, I think you can tell me how many years ago now has the OSPA's been running?

Martin 1:45

So it's about 10 years now. That's when it's been running. But of course it took a couple of years to get myself into, um, position, uh, so that, uh, um, the setup. It was quite a lot. Research is quite a lot. I mean, I, I employed a guy for a whole year who did nothing else but research award schemes. Now, what does it mean to be ethical? What does it mean to be transparent? What does it mean to be independent? I wanted to do something that was completely different because there are a lot of ward schemes out there, and so I really began to work through. What it means to do something that is based on the sorts of principles that I was interested in setting an award scheme on. I even went to CE Oyo, the two leading experts on voting behavior, professor Colin Rowings and Professor Michael Thrasher, um, to talk about what's the best way judges can vote, what's the fairest way of doing it? And so I put a lot of effort into that process because I wanted it to be different.

Yoyo 2:38

Let me tell you if you don't know this already, the OSPA's runs in 48 countries and continues to expand annually. And, you cover every major region. Apparently there's like more than 30,000 security professionals that are participated across entries, judging and ceremonies. I mean, Martin, that's phenomenal.

Martin 2:56

Yeah. No, what, so what happens is there's a, we have 48 countries. Involved and, and we are negotiating with more. In fact, it's me hesitating partly'cause of the principles. You know, I've gotta be sure that if we launch in a country, they can match our requirements for what the OSPA's is about. Uh, especially now that the winners from different countries enter the global OSPA's. So if you win your country or region, you then qualify for a global OSPA's. Uh, and so it's gotta be, it's gotta be the same everywhere in the world to fit with that process. So we're negotiating with more and, bit by bit. We're getting, uh, we're getting around the world.

Yoyo 3:32

So each country uses an independent panel of judges. Look, as you've mentioned, all blind scoring against the same global criteria, which makes it really special because when you win an award in the security circle now is a recipient of three awards.

Martin 3:47

Indeed.

Yoyo 3:47

I would say that there's different ways it can happen, but when your peers have judged. You've become successful in winning an award, it's really meaningful. Do you know what I mean?

Martin 4:00

Yeah. Well, and that's the point, right? That is the whole point. The judging process is crucial. What I wanted to do was to find a way that with ethical, when I did the research, yo-yo for this, I did a, a global study about what makes an outstanding security supplier and what makes an outstanding security department. And one of the questions was, um, how do you show value to stakeholders? And it had a list of options and one was credible industry award schemes. Now, as a researcher, I couldn't believe how highly that scored. It was disproportionate. So, and when IN when I, I, I, I did more interrogation of that answer. It transpires with saying, but there's the catch. If we had a credible industry award scheme, it would be a great way of showing value to stakeholders. But the problem is. They were credible, and it's not that many, the, the, the schemes out there are all not credible. There are plenty of good award schemes. The problem is that they're often based on a particular part of the industry. So exhibitors do it for exhibitors, uh, um, uh, magazines, do it for advertisers and subscribers and, um. And membership organization do it for members. Nothing wrong with that, but we wanted to get an industry wide and a global one to recognize the outstanding performance award outstanding performance globally by the best possible route.

Yoyo 5:19

So the OSPA's have over 250 judges worldwide, all vetted for expertise and impartiality with decisions made entirely by industry experts. Entry numbers have risen year on year by 20% with some categories. Receiving records, submissions, I mean, that's hard. When you're a judge and you've got a, like a lot of submissions, you literally have to spend the time, reading each of those submissions fairly and when there are a lot, it's a testament to the how popular the OSPA's is, Martin.

Martin 5:49

Yes. Um, and it, it is a catch because, uh, just for example, for the UK OSPA's, we have 48 judges. Uh, um, that's a lot of judges, but, um, what we're really keen to do is make sure that we stick to our principles here. And in some ways you become a victim of your own success here, uh, um, in the sense that the more that you, uh, um, the more that you generate interest, the more that you have to manage. And of course, what's happening around the world is because they're seen as the one to win, um, they're attracting more and more interest and more and more engagement.

Yoyo 6:24

So here we have a list of questions that will blow Martin Gill away.

Martin 6:30

I'm ready. I think I'm ready. Yo-Yo. But you ask good questions.

Yoyo 6:32

Martin, did you ever imagine when you launched the OSPA's that they grow into one of the most influential global benchmarks of security excellence?

Martin 6:41

Well, I set them up hoping that they would, that was the, the, the dream, really the vision. Um, and I was certainly aware that, uh, from the research, I'm a researcher after all from the research myself and colleagues were doing at the time, that there was a gap. And the more that I approached people, the more that I realized there was a, there was a gap that people wanted to fill. So it wasn't just the research throwing up this really quite obs odd finding. A surprising finding, but it was the further research I was doing. People were saying that, you know, if you could get a global award scheme going, that would be fantastic. And the model we, we, we started was stick to your principles around the world and, and, and, and make sure that, uh, you stick strong. And that's what we've done. And it's grown. So the, the vision was to do this, we hoped it would get this way, but I've been delighted. I, I had a little tear on my eye when we. Had the first global OSPA's earlier this year because that was the sense in which, uh, we, we've made a big, a big progress, a big way forward, and that has certainly driven interest locally.

Yoyo 7:42

Now I think you've answered the next question I was gonna ask you really, in terms of what was the moment you realized the OSPA's were becoming a global movement rather than just an industry award? And I think you've described that really well there.

Martin 7:54

Yeah, I don't know that. I think even now that it has, it's, it's, it's working towards it. And, um, and you know, it's great and when you go around yo-yo, you go around the world as, as I've been doing, um, and you are recognizing outstanding performers, that's, people are doing an excellent job in the most trying circumstances under the radar. And you highlight the work they do in front of their peers by this process. It is a fantastic thing to be, be a part of.

Yoyo 8:21

So, uh, which country? Surprised you the most in terms of innovation or entry quality and why

Martin 8:29

there was no country that's, uh, um, um, specifically it's more entries being

Yoyo 8:33

diplomatic now. No,

Martin 8:34

no, no. It's more entries. It's more entries that, you know, you read, you read, uh, entries and, um. You, I've come away with this, uh, impression. There is nothing wrong with the best insecurity around the world. The best insecurity around the world is outstanding around the world. In all countries, the very best are very, very good indeed. I would say this. They're not very good at saying so, and they're not very good at promoting the good bit. And that's where, uh, people like you come in, yo-yo in, uh, uh, in terms of spreading, spreading the word about the good parts and, and, and the thinking behind what makes people and, uh, uh, uh, initiatives successful. And so that's been my, my real revelation, how good and strong it is in so many countries. And yes, there's a tail and there's a tail in every country. But so there is in all groups, all professions, all sectors, uh, um, and what the real key now is to try and manage that tower and promote what's good. And of course that's where the OSPA's has been, uh, been leading the way.

Yoyo 9:36

We know that award ceremonies sometimes get a little bit of a bad knock. Mm-hmm. Um, I have to say in my experience of being a judge, I've, especially with the OSPA's, I mean, I can't even have the security circle submitted as a nomination if I'm a judge, which really does go to prove the sort of, you know, efficacy. Around the whole process. And I've been in the room, you know where you've heard people say, oh, it's the same companies winning the same awards. You know ones that buy the big tables, but actually they're the ones that put in the best submissions. And I think, let's talk to the art of submitting a nomination. Because I've seen many that fall way below the minimum standard, and I just don't think organizations want to waste time putting in nominations that knowingly are not good enough. So what could we talk to right now in terms of what makes a good nomination and, and. What's destined for better success nomination wise, you know, in the submission?

Martin 10:37

Absolutely. I think that is really the key, and it's something that we've noticed around the world now, in every country, the quality's going up. People are catching on. And I think that's in part because there's much to be gained by winning. Uh, this is the one they talk about winning globally. And of course, because if you win your country, you go into the global Aus, it's just sharpened attention. It's just focused people even more. Yeah. But a good entry is, uh, is one that goes beyond saying, I am fantastic. This is fantastic. We are fantastic and starts to put the evidence behind it. And a good entry is not a quick thing to do. It takes some thinking about, it, takes some, research and, increasingly we're finding that organizations are doing that. I had a fantastic conversation with someone recently. It was, the md one of the. One company and I said, you didn't enter this year. He said, I'll tell you what happened, Martin. I'll tell you what happened. He said, I called in my senior staff and I said, I want you all to come back with an entry for the OSPA's. He says, and I'm telling you the truth, they came back and none of them were good enough.

Yoyo 11:38

No.

Martin 11:38

He said, so I've told them this time next year, I want all of them to have an entry for the OSPA's. Yeah. And I thought that was a great way, it was a great sort of a sign of how people are using this initiative to take forward their own, progression.

Yoyo 11:51

I think from, from my perspective as a judge, when, when you bear in mind there could be up to sometimes even more than 20 nominations in a category.

Martin 12:00

Oh yes.

Yoyo 12:00

That first sentence, that first paragraph, I need it explained really clearly. What it is I'm gonna be assessing.

Martin 12:09

Yes. And that's, you see, you haven't got long to answer the question. You said

Yoyo 12:13

no.

Martin 12:13

And, and, and that's the point to focus on what the question says. And judges are really astute. I mean, you know, look, ever to be a judge, we don't, as you know, part of the principle Yoyo is we don't choose the judges. Now they're all nominated by someone else. Uh, uh, by associations and I mean people, judges are discerning. I mean, when they've got an entry in front of them, it's quite easy to determine from their point of view. This is what they tell me now, is this a contender or not? And so immediately you're looking at, if this is a contender, I have to really focus on this. And at the very top end, there's a, you know, there's often very, very small, difference in marks between them. But very quickly it's possible to say. Yeah, this is a strong contender and this isn't, and entries have to make an impression quick on judges. They're discerning, they're reading lots of entries, one after the other.

Yoyo 13:07

Yeah. So if I've got halfway down a submission and I still dunno what product or service I am judging. That's really challenging. That's like get to the point, you know, when something can just have too much corporate jargony. Right. That you're missing the actual meaning of the sentence. So explain, this is a nomination for X. This is what it's for. This is why we did it. You know, this is why it's good. And I'm gonna give you lots of evidence to support that and then go into, but it's so important to frame the nomination from the very beginning.

Martin 13:41

Absolutely. And we did there, there are examples on the website and there are, guidance to, for each of the categories about the sorts of things that, referees, will look for. So, um, it is there to be judged and, and, and of course there are a lot of very good ones these days. A lot of very good ones. I mean, what, what happens is, and, and this is happening in the UK right now, right now, so all the, all the entries, all the judges have to get their marks back by Monday. I know we are speaking on Friday, yo young. 14 of the 48 have got their marks back so far early.

Yoyo 14:12

Everyone's, we're planning to do it this weekend while, yeah, the one's on, just,

Martin 14:17

just say in 14. It's like,

Yoyo 14:20

Martin, I've got several hours of Formula One to watch this weekend with my laptop in front of me. It's gonna be perfect to do the judging. Yes.

Martin 14:28

Well, there, there's a, there's a good distraction, uh, that's getting exciting. Uh, also, and I think the point about, a point about about, entries is there's a skill set to this Now, I think more and more people are grasping it. More and more people are realizing that there is. Focus needed. And the thing is, yoyo, when companies are doing multiple entries and they're only finalists for some categories, as you say, you know, in, in one category on the os we've had over 50 entries in one category.

Yoyo 14:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean,

Martin 14:56

50 something in one category.

Yoyo 14:59

Yeah.

Martin 14:59

Um, and so you've gotta go something to be a finalist. It means, what it means is that four fifths of that, that category will not even be a finalist in the uk. So you've gotta go some. You gotta be good.

Yoyo 15:13

One of my pet peeves, I suppose, is, so for example, when it's an individual award and when it's a security officer award and they have done something heroic, that's great. You know, you, there's nothing disputable. They're usually written well, it's usually clear from the outset, the intervention from that particular security officer and why the award is. So relevant. However, for the other individual ones, I don't want to see in the submission a kind of a CV of what that person does for their job I'm looking for and, what's his name? What's his name? Ugh, what's his name? Guy Matthias. He forgot

Martin 15:51

Guy. Yeah.

Yoyo 15:52

We're often sort of putting our heads together on this and saying, I don't wanna read someone's cv. I want to see what they do above and beyond their job that makes them an outstanding security professional. What do they contribute to their community? What do they do pro bono? What do they do to volunteer? Are they giving their time back? Are they sharing their knowledge and expertise? IJI just cannot give an award to someone who's just gonna list all the things that they're supposed to do in their job. Am I wrong here?

Martin 16:22

It's just, but it's crazy. What's, what is outstanding about that? I mean, you, if you just think about the logic of it, it just isn't a logical thing to do. I go further though. Yo-yo. I mean, it's all very well saying you're doing those things. The questions for the OSPA's will be, but what are you achieving? Who are you impacting? In what way? Why is that outstanding? You know, that's the level we're getting at now, you know that to win one of these awards in any country, now you've gotta go some, you've gotta go some, it really is very, very, very competitive and, when you are getting that many entries in a single category, I mean, you know, to be a finalist is a great achievement. And to win is even more incredible. And you know, once you get onto the global OSPA's, and this is the point around the world now, people are looking at who are the entries for the global OSPA's, right? Yeah. Who's won their country. Mm-hmm. You know, who's the latest inductee into the Security Hall of Fame? They've won the Lifetime Achievement award. I mean, these are people who have gone out there and um, and achieved success. Under the radar, largely un uh, not acknowledged. Um, we haven't had the chance to learn from what's good about what they do, and here's the platform that we can now do that from. And so yeah, absolutely. You've gotta be good. You've gotta show your good, the advice is there. The, examples are there. So, you know, take the time to do that. Do it well, and give yourself a chance of showing off what makes you really talented, or makes your product or initiative or company or team really talented and, be judged according to how you, how good you really are.

Yoyo 17:56

In fact, we were in Dallas, for GSX when we had the, United States, OSPA's and Sandy, our very own CEO, she won the Lifetime Achievement Award. And we were sat together on the table and I just, I got to see how impactful it was for her. And she was literally trembling, having gone on stage and accepted the award. And it's such a. Big thing I to be, do you know, I said to Mike Hurst yesterday, I said, of all the awards I've won, I've never been able to receive any of them in person. Yes.

Martin 18:25

Oh, bless you. I didn't know that. Yo, I didn't know that. Yo. I mean, the point is it's nice when you can, right?

Yoyo 18:30

Yeah.

Martin 18:31

Because, uh, um, and what we find around the world, this is important to us, uh, to get audience engagement with the awards itself. Now, to do that, you've gotta be outstanding at delivering awards. And, you know, we have a event team headed by Christine Brooks, and we've really worked at the process of what an award ceremony should be like, you know, and, and what you have to be careful with awards is that you can bo an audience. And, you know, they're there with their teams and with their clients and with their colleagues and their drinking, and they're having a good time and quite right too. They pay a lot of money for a ticket. And yes, they'll give their time to, to appreciate those who have won. But once they're out the running, of course, uh, um, it becomes slightly less interesting. So you have to be careful with the way you do awards to make sure you get that engagement and make sure that you've got audience appreciating. For these people, these teams, these companies, these individuals, these are really big moments in their life. And so being there and getting the audience engagement, laying on a show so that people feel part of it, is all part of the process that we've worked really, really hard at.

Yoyo 19:44

One thing that I've learned certainly, you know, in attending as a judge at last year, and I think actually it was the OSPA's this year in February, I didn't drink at all, and I just realized that this really is an extension of my professional. Environment and I tend to leave as well. As soon as the last award has been given out, I tend not to stay back for drinking, gambling and shenanigans.

Martin 20:08

Yeah.

Yoyo 20:09

Am I, am I boring or am I just treating it like a consummate professional?

Martin 20:12

I definitely wouldn't call you boring. Yoyo. I think that's right. Yo. You know, I mean, people treat these events in different ways. Partly, of course, it's a massive networking opportunity. The, all the key players are there. They're out in large numbers with their teams. So it's a really good place to be, to meet other people. That said, it's a great opportunity to bring people together and celebrate and have a good night out. And, and so all sorts, and some, you know, continue till beyond two o'clock, in the bar upstairs in the, LAN hotel. We've

Yoyo 20:41

got some hardcore security professionals. Well, we now make sure

Martin 20:44

it's open Yoyo. Uh, it is part of the development of the office. We now know that people don't want finish at 1:00 AM when we finish. They want to go on. So we arrange for the bar to be open.

Yoyo 20:54

That's awesome. And like you say, you know, it's a great way to meet people. I haven't really been very active on the circuit this year for 2025, and so when I see people, it will be probably the first time I see them since February. Okay. You know. Yeah. So, and, and I think sometimes you just gotta get your head down and, and tuck into work. You know, but yeah, it's, um, it's nice to sort of go back and reunite with familiar faces and, and people who, who are all allies too. And, and the amount of guests from the Security Circle podcast in that room is

Martin 21:26

precisely, precisely, yo yo, I mean that, and that's the point. See, I mean, you are engaging with, um, the leaders in the sector and the leaders are in sector in that night. So, it's a good recruiting ground for future, um, interviewees as well. And that's the point about networking, right? It's, that's what networking's about. And, and that's what these events provide. You know, in each country you're getting the best there. Um, and so, it's something we're working on around the world and bit by bit we're getting there. We're evolving as an organization. So, uh, it's work in progress. Yoyo, we're not there, we're far from there yet, but well, in progress. Well, I,

Yoyo 22:01

I think you're being very humble, Marty. I'm

Martin 22:03

serious Yoyo. We're not there yet. We've, when you start off and say we're in all parts of the world, it isn't strictly speaking true. We're, we are, we're, you know, we are in Asia and we are in, America, but we're not in. Latin America, and we're negotiating now with Latin America. We're not in the Middle East and we're negotiating with the Middle East. But there are ways in which we've got to get that right. And so we're working with both parts of the world to do that and to extend the Bon Asias in South Korea recently, talking about the opportunity to take the OSPA's there. So bit by bit, we're expanding, so there's a lot more we can do there. And of course. We're all improving all the time. We're learning about award schemes, we're learning about local cultures. We're learning about the different ways in which we can hold events. We're learning about the ways in which we engage different groups. We're learning as we go along, and that's part of, the challenge.

Yoyo 22:51

Many organizations say that an Oscar win boosts trust with clients. What do you think this type of recognition, like, why do you think it carries so much weight, Martin, in a profession known for operating behind the scenes?

Martin 23:04

Right, and that's the point, I think because it's a, it is been a profession that's prided itself on being secret historically. Uh, it's somewhat sort of been under the radar globally, and I think the real opportunity, the, for the auspice is to shine a light. On outstanding practice by a process that people, uh, can see is different to the way that others have typically run their award scheme. Um, and the fact that some are trying to emulate what we are doing to some extent, at least, um, I think is beginning to raise the standard of award schemes generally. So it's a great opportunity for us and it's a great opportunity to, um, throw that light on good practice around the world. And I think that's the point. The process by which that has done has been what has attracted the attention and the engagement.

Yoyo 23:48

Now, I know you can't share favoritism, uh, but is there a specific meaningful moment or maybe a winner reaction that you've witnessed that has just made you realize, this is why I'm doing this?

Martin 24:02

Loads. I would say almost every single event, yo-yo, every single event, you see the faces of the people that win. And every single time, every single occasion, I come away thinking, wow. And I mean, it's an honest answer. It is that overwhelming and even more so, uh, um, when people realize the opportunity that goes beyond winning their country to the global,

Yoyo 24:28

I've got an idea for you. We could have a new category, and it's a very special one. And it basically is called unrecognized security. Heroes of History.

Martin 24:39

Well, can I tell you, yoyo? Yes. I can't tell you how many ideas I get for new categories, probably. Probably we've got 50 on our list. That'll be the 51st. I think the real issue is, joking aside for a second, that time, what we're really keen to do is focus attention around ones that can be awarded globally. Um, and there are so many you can do, uh, uh, we started off I think with 26 and we've added many more since then as possibles. But I mean, I think for the OSPA's, what we've got to do is choose categories that travel well. That have, that have appealed all over the world. Um, and, that part of the evolution has been getting those categories accepted all over the world and making sure that we get engagement in those around the world. So, and that would evolve. There are some we may drop and some that we may add as we go forward, but, the key is to try and get focus around, around ones that have a universal application.

Yoyo 25:33

Hey, this is a hardball question. Martin, are you bracing yourself?

Martin 25:36

Ready?

Yoyo 25:38

What's the one uncomfortable truth in your professional experience around being a security influencer and thought leader? What's the one uncomfortable truth the security industry needs to admit before we can truly progress?

Martin 25:51

For me, it's really easy. It needs to admit. That it's not very good at saying how good it is, you know? I mean, and this is the point I say that almost every event I go to that the security world is outstanding at what it does, it's outstanding around the world, security professionals are doing jobs which are fundamental. To enable organizations to operate, including in the most testing environments, including protecting their assets, including protecting lives. And when the outstanding don't do their job, the consequences are severe. And so it is fundamental. That we stand up and say, this group, this set of activities, this sector is making a major contribution, uh, um, to organizations in enabling them to operate effectively and efficiently and legally. And, uh, that's recognized it for what it really does. And not for some historical perception or misplaced perception about where it was many years ago. We still dominate the thinking.

Yoyo 26:51

I think you've resonated there certainly in why I set up the Security Circle podcast, Martin, because I just remember, you know, being that security officer on the front line and working my way through different types of, you know, regional management national roles and realizing how lonely it is out there. And probably it's the only time I've ever been lonely. Is actually in my career and when I joined A-S-I-S-I, I've talked to this a lot about how my world changed and all of a sudden it's like going to summer camp and everyone there is having the same amount of fun as you, some more than others. And then I realized, you know, in setting up the Security Circle podcast, we were so bad. I remember saying. That when things go wrong, they impact all of us. When something goes wrong, like Manchester for example, Manchester Arena with Areana Grande, when something, when security let themselves down, it impacts all of us. But what we don't do is talk enough about the great things we're doing. And so back in 20 23, 22, when I set up the security, can you believe it's that far away? You were the third. Guest number was I? Yes you were. And thank you so much for just being there when we didn't know what we were doing.

Martin 28:03

Well, well, I mean, the thing that I always thought it was a good idea, yo-yo, and I'm always, uh, uh, keen to support what you do and, and it's,, and it is an important role you play, right? It's an important role in, bringing thought leaders, right? Yeah. And what makes them tick and what's important. These are not trivial issues. These are important contributions, to the broader base. So I was, I'm, I've always been pleased to be a part of what you're doing and grateful to be involved.

Yoyo 28:28

Oh no. That, no, it was really cool.'cause you know, we didn't, you know, have an awful lot of a plan in the beginning. It was more of a case of how can we share the amazing knowledge in these people's brains so that. The Yolanda of the past that's in that management job on her own, driving around all night visiting sites, doing all of those sorts of things. How can we reach those people and help them to realize they are part of a far bigger, courageous protective movement?

Martin 28:59

Right. Yeah. And this is my point about the weakness of the security world is not saying how good it is. It's shy and it shouldn't be shy. There's a lot to celebrate and there's more to celebrate than there is to concern itself with. Of course, it's got its, its got its tail. That's, uh, got problems of course. But, you know, even, even the Manchester arena, you pointed out security, Failures there, but they weren't security failures alone. They were failures across, you know, fire and police and different groups. It's not as if the security sector as a monopoly on, on, on having problems. And so there were learning points for all organizations and on, one of which is the need to collaborate and work, and work together.

Yoyo 29:41

Yeah, no. Agreed. And we were at the Navy Club, weren't we on the Thames, a couple of years ago, I think. And I was saying to you, you know,, I'd never had an award. And you said you've gotta be in it to win it Yoyo, right? Yeah. Yeah. Just give that the amount of times I've told people that just because they were expecting somebody to nominate them. And I'm like, no, get your own nomination in sing about what you're doing. That's. Brilliant and be confident. Tell a story. So I think that's the trick, isn't it? You're right.

Martin 30:10

Yeah, and I think Tanya, so funny,, I've got a daughter, one of my daughters is a specialist in storytelling. She helps organizations, with their sales by telling stories. And, um, storytelling is actually a really, really, through her I'm learning about, you know, a golden methodology that is, and funny you should say that Yoyo funny. You should raise that because I've just been thinking about how we might take some of. That's about how you tell a story and help people to improve their entries for the awards.'cause really it's about telling their story and doing that effectively. So it's interesting. You should pick on that point because I'm just going through a stage about how we might take the learning from that world to, uh. Develop what we're doing.

Yoyo 30:48

Yeah. But you know why it's important. I get a lot of people approach me and say, oh, you know, I wanna do a podcast, and your podcast is really good. And, how can I get some tips and tricks from you? And part of me is sitting here thinking. You know, I didn't go to anybody and ask them for advice. I just literally did my research. I went online and I just researched and research what the best formats were, what the best formulas were, what the best engagement would likely achieve, and started from ground zero. But to your point, it was about the storytelling. I knew there was a need to connect people so people say to me. Oh, yoyo, you know so many people and you know you're really well connected. And I'm like, yeah, but if you listen to every podcast and then you connect with each of those people, you have the same network of knowledge as me. That's how simple it is. It's not, there's no rockets. Science to it. It's about connecting, engaging and being open to hearing what people have to say. That the specialists, the people at the top of their game, that's the story, right? So when I speak to people who come to me and they say, oh yeah, what can I do? I said, what's your story?

Martin 31:58

But you know something though, yoyo, I agree. I agree that stories are important, but I don't agree that it's easy. And I think one of the difficulties I think is that we can. Complicate, or we can misunderstand just how difficult it is to do jobs really, really well. You know, when you look at the outstanding security performers around the world, for example, it's not that they do anything that's out of the ordinary, particularly, they just do the essentials exceptionally well. But doing essentials exceptionally well is extremely difficult to do, you know, and telling a good story. And the art of storytelling is, I'm learning from my daughter, by the way. I'm not, I should, I don't wanna say I'm too informed yo-yo because, I'm getting this from, from someone else, but, but you know, the art of storytelling is a real skillset. You know, it is a real, to understand what is your story, to understand how it relates, to understand what are the important points and how you put them across and in what context and for what audience and what the audience wants to receive are all important points. And rather ironically, I mean, I'm the researcher and when you set up, your podcast, I did a lot of research. I almost did the opposite. Almost the opposite. I was on the, I was on, I remember just the first week of COVID, Martin Smith, called me. And many of, many of the people will know Martin Smith. He's a good friend of mine. And he's very, very big in the cybersecurity world. And he came to me and said to me, could I appear on a podcast on cyber? I said, Martin, you know, uh, um, what do you want me to say? I want you to talk about offenders. So I did the podcast very first week of COVID and I thought that's really, really good. And I said, you know what, Marty? I might do one of these for the, uh, my world. He goes, great idea. So I set up five, five. We ended up doing just 190, webinars, panel discussion. You were part of, you were part of this, yo. Yeah. And through COVID of course, that was a really big deal'cause people were captive. So you, you know, you grab people and then we evolved into interviews out of that, people were coming to me and it was the next stage of development, but it was all, by the way, it wasn't as if I researched it greatly or, and the interesting thing was the topics kept emerging regionally. The. There are people who wanted to engage with it. There are people turning up to, to listen and watch. And in those days it was, you know, that you is, that's just a

Yoyo 34:11

thirst. The thirstiness of the security brains we have in our community is phenomenal. And all of the Security Circle listeners around the world, they're very thirsty. They just want to hear they want. And so there's the pressure. The pressure is, you know, oh gosh, I don't wanna bring anyone to this. That's, you know, gonna be disinteresting or maybe talk about themselves too much, all that kind of stuff. And I've always liked the conversational element of this. I've, I've come away and when I come away having edited the podcast, having listened to it the second time, and I'm like. Oh, that's good. Mm-hmm you know, that's that. There's nuggets of great stuff there. Uh, and who else gets the opportunity to pick up the phone and speak to Martin Gill and say, Hey Martin, I wanna tap your brains on this. You know, who, who really, and all this is a way for people to reach you and get to know you

Martin 34:59

better. Absolutely. And it's a fantastic. I agree with you and, uh, and there are, there are some, many, many, many good, uh, podcasts out there, to be fair in many different areas, which, um, I find very, very insightful. I think the thing is though, yo-yo people are, are doing their, their different way of doing things. They're all making a contribution. They're all getting engagement from audiences. They're all adding to knowledge. And, um, as long as they're demanded, and, you know, as long as we keep evolving, then um, uh, long way they continue.

Yoyo 35:28

I think this, I can compare the Security Circle podcast to my attitude towards coffee. Um, I'm a bit of a coffee snob, really only the best. Uh, I can't really have that bitter coffee, you know, that's come out of a machine. It's like that. Uh, and I, and people say to me, well, you know what, what do I need to do to be on the podcast? I said, well, you need to bring something fresh and different. You need to be at the top of your game. You need to be a security thought leader, an influencer, a CEO, or an md, an entrepreneur, a startup. You've got to bring in something that people don't have access to hearing and listening about every single day. And so we've got a nice lane. There. Yeah. In that sense. Yeah,

Martin 36:10

exactly., And there are plenty of people who are, you know, out there with stories to tell. I mean, I'm trying to get a bit more focus on those who are not so high profile. I mean, you know, from the OSPA's around the world, I'm meeting people winning awards and I'm looking, I'm thinking, my goodness, you've got a story to tell. And part of the process I'm evolving is trying to get more of those stories from around the world, from people that we speak to. Out there. You know, and it's fascinating to hear, and some of the interview do for people from Africa, for example, about the specific circumstances that African women in particular, but African people, uh, face in the cultures and the environments they work, different to South America. We just, Maria Septum from Latin America, she was talking about some of the dynamics there. Fascinating and, you know, really engaging stuff and contributions and as you say, enjoyable to do.

Yoyo 36:57

And you know what as well, Martin, There are very, very few places where everybody comes together and I'm talking about all the membership organizations now. The membership organizations are very good at working together. Alright. There's a lot of great allies and partnerships and even Mike Hurst said to me yesterday, you know, we should consider potentially working with this organization because I think there's a lot of alignment. Synergy there in what we're trying to achieve, and I really admire him for just always looking for ways to collaborate. When you've got all of those membership organizations, everybody's together for the common cause of judging and awarding ceremonies, there's, there's not many places. When you look at the other initiatives that are trying to get lifted off, there's not many other places where everyone comes together in such harmony. Is that,

Martin 37:44

well, you've just, Michael's one of the best in the world at that. I mean, uh, um, few, I think match up to his, uh, ability to bring people together. Um, but yeah, absolutely. Look, uh, that's the point. Membership organizations do a wonderful thing. I'm a, I'm a member of several and I really enjoy being part of, you know, networking events, seeing friends, learning is, about, about issues. Fantastic.

Yoyo 38:05

So Martin, for those people that haven't met you, you have shared with me, in the past that you've taken up a new hobby. I have., and you've been at this now for some time. I have. I don't think anyone would've put you in singing together. No, not me. Not me.

Martin 38:23

How did

Yoyo 38:23

this happen?

Martin 38:24

Well,, so this is a bizarre set of, so. It was 50 years I last had a music lesson at school. Right. And I was always, you know, your family, you have sing songs. And my kids were saying to me over the years, you should do singing lessons, dad, I never did. Uh, um, and then one day I'm sitting down and thinking, what am I gonna do that's different this year, this last October, last September. In fact, first last of October, the first last year. And, um, I thought, I'm gonna book a sing lesson, one single lesson, half an hour. And I went with extreme trepidation, you know, I mean, I haven't sung very one 50 years. And even then, it was a music lesson at school. Just to be clear, I was 13. Uh, um, so anyway, so I went into the music lesson and I, I nearly pulled out Yayo. I nearly walked away at the last minute. Um, it was that close. And I met Daisy, and she was a wonderful teacher, and she said, um, you know, just sing these notes. Sing a note. No, you know, uh, you, you know, ah, anyway, by the end of the half hour she says, you know, you really ought to book future lessons. So, so I booked some more lessons and I sang in a show, and then I sang in another show. Not very well. My son gave me five out of 10. Five out of 10 y Yeah. Uh, because he thought I could have done a lot better. And then I thought, when you are learning other songs to sing right, they're quite difficult to, to, to learn. Um, and I was quite honest. I thought, well, I've written books, I've written articles, how difficult it must be to write a song. And, you know, I, I've got a lot of experience of being victims and offenders and crime. So I started to write some songs and, uh, I've now written nine songs. I've recorded four. Four. Uh, um, and of those four, so what I've done, I've done a first recording, and then you get people to listen to them and give you advice, and you practice every singing lesson, those four. And then I'll, I'll record those four. And so I'm not very good. Uh, I'm not a great singer, but, um, you know, I, I, I, I'm an enthusiast and it's a bit of fun and I've enjoyed writing the songs about, you know, about the sort of things that have affected me. I

Yoyo 40:22

think it being very humble. Martin,

Martin 40:24

I'm not really, no, I'm really not a good singer. I mean, the thing I've learned, yo, yo, is that you don't have to be a fantastic singer, so long as you can sing in tune. Uh, and that is debatable where, you know, I can only sometimes sing in tune, but it seems that sometimes I can, um, uh, then, um, and of course I'm singing these songs about things that I've, you know, written about, you know, written about, about politic offenders, about victimization. You know, about the process of coping with pain. I mean, these are sorts of things that, uh, um, one on suicide. A good friend of mine, very good friend of mine, actually died from suicide, and I interviewed his wife, not, not on, not on the podcast, just, uh, um, went for a drink with her and spoke to her and the trauma she faced. About, you know, uh, having someone who's died from suicide so close, you know, the sense that what could I have done? The pain of losing something other people saying, what? Why didn't you help, help help him. And the perceptions that evolve around it. So that ever found, so, so I wrote a song about that and about, um, and about things around the subjects that I've done. I've done that. So I've really enjoyed those.

Yoyo 41:32

Martin, I don't think anybody, uh, certainly including myself, would've thought that you would find such inspiration through writing about, you know, such emotive subjects. How does it make you feel when you're singing?

Martin 41:45

So, uh, um. I really like it. If I had more confidence in it, it would be better. And here's the thing, right? So because I'm a university lecturer and because I give talks all over the world, I could, if you said to me, now stand up in Martin Urgent, I need your, your help. I've got a thousand people in there. Can you give a criminology lecturer right now? Anything? Just I would a thousand people, no problem. Stand up now and I'd feel confident I could do a good job. Now put me in front of 50 people to sing. That's the opposite effect. You know, I'm terrified. Um, uh, I lack confidence in it, so I've gotta, I've gotta, you know, get a bit more confidence in what I'm doing.

Yoyo 42:21

This is so good because, you know, look, it's, it's, it's all well and good knowing the lanes that you're comfortable in, and, and this is stretching you, you know, it's important. So, for example, you know, I've just joined a netball team this year, and I used to play netball in school very, very well. I was always a, a player called on to play, and I was a regular competitive player, but I have to kind of like, you know, this is my way of putting myself out of my comfort zone. I am not as athletic as I was when I was 16. Um, I cannot cover the, the court as much as I used to. Uh, but my brain is still kind of. Optimized to kind of, you know, perform in a certain way. And just knowing that I've got a lot more to learn in terms of how I adapt back in as a mature player is I'm outta my comfort zone. Uh, it challenges me, like I woke up at three 30 in the morning and I was still thinking about that very young center player that was playing opposite me and center and the, even the linesmen, the, sorry, the, the, the umpire. Was basically saying, don't let her get in front of you. She will jump for your ball. And she's guiding me on the, on the, on the sidelines. And of course, every time I'm trying to move to the side, this woman's all over me, like white on rice. And, and basically, and I was like, I can't get rid of her like this. And the umpire's laughing. It's hilarious.'cause, you know, it's, it's, it's a compliment to the player, you know, when. When, you know, but it was, it was frustrating that she was so nimble, so agile. And I'm sitting there thinking I have got a lot of work to do here. But it was only afterwards that we realized we'd just formed a brand new team. We had one player who'd never played before. Uh, and even sort of, you know, when you look at the setup and how we were delivering, we have a lot of work to do. We were playing a team that was. Playing for a whole year together. They know each other really well. They were very, very, very good performers, and I love that. I'm out of my comfort zone. It's not easy. Takes a lot of hard work, and I would encourage you to think of it in the same way. Don't expect to feel. Don't even crave to feel as confident as you were talking about criminology in front of a thousand students. Don't expect to feel that good. Let the singing be your way of enjoying being out of your comfort zone. And I'm sure you're better than you say you are.'cause that's just, well,

Martin 44:43

I really don't think I am. But, um, but the, but the, but the, but the, but the point is, uh, absolutely. I mean, what you say is absolutely right and good advice again. Um, I think the thing is, uh. Like, like most things in my life, I want to get better, you know, and I want to be better than I am. And um, in truth, I don't put as much effort into it as I really need to do to get better. Partly just'cause of timing factors and other things going on. We've been speaking about some of those today, but, you know, look, I'll persevere. Um, I've got lunch, huge night.

Yoyo 45:13

It's time to sing in the shower every day, Martin.

Martin 45:15

Well, that's right. And, and of course, the thing is, I can practice my songs. So the thing, what I'm, what I've started doing is, uh uh, right, right. What I want you to do, well, Martin, now first three have changed the world. What is it? Because the point is, yoyo, when you are doing songs, well, I've learned this. First of all, you go have an idea, then you've gotta write the song. Then you've gotta get the tune. Otherwise, he's just a poem. And then I work with a guy called Kev Amos, who turn, turns my tune into music. And then you've gotta learn the words, learn to sing them in, tune to the music, and then you've gotta learn to perform. So for every one, there is a, you know, a real emphasis. They teach you that in songs. What are the key words? How can you emphasize them? How can you raise your voice and lower your voice and change the music to make it all interesting? So all these things, I'm just learning for the first time.

Yoyo 46:05

Martin Gill, tell me something else about you that nobody else knows.

Martin 46:09

Well, you, we, that's the one no one else knows, about the music, but, um, I know golfer, three kids, granddad,

Yoyo 46:17

golfer. I have a gal pal. He's gonna take me golfing for the first time in the spring.

Martin 46:22

You must do it. Now, here's my lesson to you. Go on. There is a wonderful, wonderful, um. Pastime. I mean, I play every, every Saturday morning typically. Um, and it's a great pastime. It's a great, great. The good thing about golf is that once you get to a certain level, because of the handicap system, you can always compete with others. You compete on other courses with other people because it's got handicap. So it's a fantastic thing that you can do into, you know, with different groups. And I've, I've had great fun on a golf course and I continue, have to have great fun on the golf course.

Yoyo 46:53

Martin Gi, I know that you have a, uh, bit of a cold at the moment. Yes. I wish you, uh, good health and good speed of recovery. Thank you. You've done so You didn't cough once.

Martin 47:02

Well, I did once, but I turned the audio off so you didn't hear. And

Yoyo 47:06

I, I have also had outside my, my door, um, I've got some workman at the moment, uh, laying. Block paving and they're using the ground thumper. Oh

Martin 47:18

no.

Yoyo 47:18

Literal. They dunno. I'm recording a podcast but I had to mute myself quite a lot because even I struggled to hear what you were saying. I'm thinking, my goodness. I hope that's not come across, but we'll find out. Martin, good luck with you OSPA's.

Martin 47:31

Thank you very much indeed. And uh, I wish you all take care. Stay safe. Okay.