EP 178 From Costa Rica to Complexity Theory: Rethinking Modern Security with Erik D. Erikson

Podcast Summary

From Costa Rica’s escalating violence and drug trafficking routes to complexity theory, semiotics, cultural anthropology, and the psychology of human behaviour — this week’s episode of The Security Circle Podcast goes far beyond traditional security conversations.

Joining me is Erik D. Erikson, a Costa Rica-based security professional, trainer, coach, and systems thinker whose work explores the intersection between security, culture, language, community dynamics, and human resilience.

In this fascinating discussion, we unpack:

• The changing security landscape in Costa Rica
• Drug trafficking, migration, and societal instability
• Why ego can become one of the greatest risks in security leadership
• Complexity theory and the Cynefin Framework in crisis management
• Semiotics, misinformation, propaganda, and “irregular warfare”
• Why understanding culture and human behaviour is now essential for modern security professionals

This is not a typical cyber security episode. It is a deep exploration into how people, systems, narratives, and communities shape the environments security professionals must operate within every single day.

Thought-provoking, unconventional, and packed with insight — this episode challenges us to think differently about what security really means in today’s world.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/erik-d-erikson/

Security Circle ⭕️  is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

Speaker 0:01

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Speaker 2 0:36

Hi, I'm Yolanda And welcome to the Security Circle Podcast, produced in association with IFPO, the International Foundation for Protection Officers. This podcast is all about connection, bringing you closer to the greatest minds, boldest thinkers, trailblazers, and change makers across the security industry. Whether you are here to grow your network, spark new ideas, or simply feel more connected to the world of protection and risk, you are in the right place wherever you are listening from. Thank you for being a part of the Security Circle journey..

Yoyo 1:13

So Eric, um, welcome to the Security Circle podcast, only the best guests here. In fact, one of the reasons that drew me to you is because of your LinkedIn presence. So we're gonna talk about your LinkedIn presence and why you find LinkedIn such a valuable tool. But first of all, for those people that don't know i'd love for you to tell us how you got involved in security in Costa Rica.

Erik 1:40

Well, at first, uh, my folks purchased some property down here and back in 93. Uh, and, uh, I was elsewhere. I was over in Europe at the time and I was curious to, to see more about it. And when I had vacations, you know, I took the, you know, 10 days to, uh, to get down here and to take a look at, uh, how they're doing. They had a little farm. Well, they still have this little farm. And, uh, yeah, it, it started from there and one thing led to another, to another, to another.

Yoyo 2:17

You said that your son asked you. What is it exactly that you do? And you said, do you want the long version or do you want the short version? What you want the long version, Eric?

Erik 2:29

The long version. Okay. Let's start with the long version. Well, um, I'm in the, I was in the area of, uh, underwater filming photography and, and videography in Southern California. And, uh, um, uh, the same, it was, uh. We all have a basic notion of what security is, but, uh, until it actually happens to you, say for example, uh, some type of security incident like, uh, being robbed or assaulted or, or something stolen. I mean, you know, normally nobody really thinks about security until it actually affects you or some, someone close to you. And, uh, uh, my folks down here, they received a, a death threat. And I was kind of like, okay, that's, uh, a little bit, uh, troubling. And I started making some contacts with people, uh, here in, in Costa Rica. I started with, uh, context through the, uh, United States Embassy and asking. What type of recommendations you would have for, uh, you know, people, uh, that were in my, uh, situation from the United States and my folks down here. That led to several contacts and I followed up with those contacts and I met some incredible people. I met, once I met, Marco Munoz. And, uh. I brought my, um, my stepdad and my, my mom to these courses here. I came down just for, just for that. And, uh, let's see. They have these security courses at the shooting range you get to know the people and you figure out, Hey, what type of situation is this? And, you know, they're giving you recommendations for security in situations. And I remember that course as if it was yesterday, and I think that inspired me to say, Hey, you know, it's, Hey, this is an interesting area. And they said, Hey. So I was a shooting instructor in the United States through the Department of Justice in, California. Also with the NRA and some other groups. And from that they, they were saying, Hey Eric, let's go to the range. Well, we are in the range. And, and again, one thing led to another and we are, we started shooting and they said, Hey, you like shooting? Well, yeah, I've been shooting since I was a kid. Oh, really? Well, and they asked me Why don't you come on as an instructor? And that's how it all started.

Yoyo 5:31

Cannot believe you mentioned the NRA on my podcast, Eric.

Erik 5:36

Well, that isn't, isn't that interesting? You know? You, you go into these things, you go into events, you go into tournaments, you go into trainings, and sometimes you don't really even know what the NRA is. I mean, you, you find out afterwards and you know, it's, it's something different to, to everybody.

Yoyo 5:59

Mm-hmm.

Erik 5:59

And you, national Rifle Association does have quite a reputation within the United States and I guess apparently outside of the United States. What is, what is the image we are projecting outside of the United States?

Yoyo 6:17

I dare. It's not great. It's not great. That's why it's probably best to not talk about it. No, I think if I'm Frank. And, um, I know that they are a huge government lobbyist, certainly for the Republican Party. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and I think any organization that lobbies the government in the way that the NRA do, and there are many of them including, you know, horticultural farming, you know, food, the Sugar committee, you know, there's so many organizations that have a clear incentive of. Financing government to influence policy. And it happens everywhere. What is the, security and electoral sentiment in Costa Rica right now in preparation for the elections and what is the kind of current, I don't know what the current politics are for the country.

Erik 7:11

Well, it's an interesting thing. I've been sort of following, uh, Costa Rica for some time now. That's about 30 years. And, uh, coming from a, a mathematical perspective and linguistic perspective, semiotic perspective, and I'm watching. Politics, you're, you're watching processes of how people use, leverage certain ideas in, in, into words, and then they distribute the words. It's, uh, it's, you see the same thing in, in, into, in marketing, uh, people promoting their products. You know, they're trying to sell you something. Uh, so there's a lot of rhetoric and that's a, that's an area that's just fascinating, you know? We in the security area also watch a lot of rhetoric and, and we use the rhetoric to, to get a better idea of, you know, what's inside people's heads, what's going on with them.

Yoyo 8:10

What are the current themes that affect security in the, in the governmental elections? I would say, you know, Europe's got a huge problem with immigration image. Immigration is at the top of the radar. Uh, it's being weaponized. Um, quite offensively, there's a lot of egos in this space that are trying to state that, you know, we can clearly, uh, do better as a country without so much immigration. And tax is also another issue. How are we gonna pay for stuff?

Erik 8:38

Absolutely. Okay. Some of the top themes right now in that, uh, voters are concerned about are, of course, the insecurity, the, the, the crisis we have, uh, violence. It's, hey, it's, it's outta control and it is affecting, uh, people directly and indirectly. The, the murder rate has, uh, skyrocketed. Um, it's a lot higher than it has ever been historically. Uh. In Costa Rica. So number one on everyone's head, in everyone's mind is the citizen security or, uh, security issues and obviously especially violence, violent, uh, uh, violent crime.

Yoyo 9:27

Why is the murder rate so high?

Erik 9:30

Well, it's, well, the majority of all of these homicides are basically due to the drug, uh, influence the sales of drugs on the streets and the criminal organizations around these, these, the cell selling of the drugs and they're, you know, they're fighting for territory. And in that not, not, they're not just killing the other members of their, of, uh, rival gangs, but there are, you know, killing innocent, uh, people, innocent stand with them.

Yoyo 10:13

How much of drug production and drug economy do you think finances, the overall economy of the country in terms of keeping people employed, churning over cash in local areas? Is it quite an important fight, do you think?

Erik 10:27

Well, um, specifically as to production, I don't think we have that much production. The production is not high. It is the, the passing of drugs from, you know, the lower countries, south America, uh, Panama, uh, even, uh, I would say I, it Jamaica. There's marijuana coming from those, those countries, uh, obviously cocaine from Columbia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Brazil. And that, is not always, they're not always able to pay for that here. So what they do is they. Give the product to the local drug dealers and the drug dealers, you know, turn that into, into cash. Uh, there's also the problem of the money. Laundry, laundry, laundry. Here in Costa Rica, it, it's, it's a science basically. And you know, the last official numbers we had was from 2015 where you have close to 7.7 billion. Dollars a year in, in the money launder. So that's, that's a lot of power. And that, Yolanda converts into a lot of other bad things, secondary bad things. So it's, you know, paying off, government officials, uh, infiltrating the police forces and, you know, everything you can imagine that, uh. They could, you know, twist people's arms with, uh, in, in illegal processes to, to favor certain, uh, verdicts in, in court proceedings. So yes, it's, it's, it comes from that basically. And, uh, so

Yoyo 12:35

It's quite a small country, Costa Rica, isn't it? It's not, uh, as, as big as many in that region. But do you have an immigration issue with people coming from the main continent through Panama, up through Costa Rica, to Nicaragua, Guatemala, and then into Mexico, into the United States? Is that an immigration route?

Erik 12:53

Yes, it, uh, Costa Rica is a, is is, uh, part of the root that a lot of people that have been disenfranchised. Are marginalized in other countries. So instability in, in, say for example, Brazil, Ecuador, uh, Paraguay, uh, Brazil, uh, Bolivia, Columbia, Venezuela. They want to get to United States. They wanna go look for a better life for themselves and, and for their families. And so instability in other regions forces people to. To better sit, you know, they, the image to the idea that the green is the, the grass is greener over the, in the other pasture is very much in their minds. So yes, we do have a, an immense problem with, uh, with, uh, immigration.

Yoyo 13:50

Hmm. But is that because people are transiting through? So for example, there are some that would say, you know, uh, a lot of people, certainly in, in Europe. Uh, we attract a lot of immigration and they've gone through seven countries to get to us. So we are a final destination country in the same way that the United States is a final destination country for immigration. Uh, and so does that mean in essence, Costa Rica doesn't really have a problem with immigration? 'cause ultimately everyone's trying to get through to Nicaragua anyway, right up through to Mexico.

Erik 14:25

Absolutely. That's, you hit it right on the button. Um. The, the instability, for example, in Venezuela, we've seen over the years with, uh, the dictatorship of, uh, Nicholas or the situation with, you know, drugs in, in, in Columbia with, uh, that have caused a lot of, uh, problems. Um, and you've probably heard about the recent assassination of a political candidate, uh, Uribe. Um. By, uh, opposing political party. I mean, these things are political. Violences is a huge factor of instability and, and continues to be, and it forces people out of their situations and searching for a better life. So, um, yes, the United States is a destination country and. They're just passing through, uh, Costa Rica and they're just passing through Nicaragua. They're just passing through Salvador. Uh, uh, uh, Ecuador, no, I'm sorry, Salvador, uh, and Guatemala and through to Mexico. Every country in Central America has issues with, uh, immigration.

Yoyo 15:47

So there are lots of people that won't know this, but Costa Rica's political history is rather defined, isn't it? By the 1949 decision to actually abolish its army completely, which led to a kind of peace dividend, which is what they call it, that funded social programs and democratization. Basically this demilitarized democracy fostered early social reforms and stability, but now faces challenges from rising crime rates as we've discussed, and violence and international economic in, uh, dependencies. It's rather unusual, isn't it, for a country to completely abolish its army.

Erik 16:26

Well, uh, Yolanda, that's a, that's a very interesting question, and that observation for the most part is, is very true. Costa Rica did abolish its, uh, army in 1,949. And, uh, but there were certain costs with that and, and benefits of course. Uh, one of the biggest benefits was the, in the investment in social programs, education and healthcare. And, uh, you know, there was a, a, a definite peace dividend from, from that. Um, but when we get to say 1990, uh, 2000, you know, we, we started to have security issues with the NACO traffic, or how do you say that? In, in, in English. You guys say naco traffic, drug trafficking.

Yoyo 17:27

Uh, drug trafficking. Yeah.

Erik 17:30

I guess I've been here.

Yoyo 17:31

No, I like the way you say it though. It sounds much, much more fun.

Erik 17:36

It sounds more exotic. Well, yeah, it's a definite major vector in the instability of, of any country. Uh, and, and a lot. So for Costa Rica as, as a country, as the bridge, which has to, uh. Transit, these, these drugs coming up from Central America to, to feed the demand in, you know, north America, principally the United States. I, I believe the United States is probably about 60% of all the, uh, illegal drugs consumed in the world. 60 or even maybe 70%. So there, there's an issue of, you know, how to control the demand as well as the, the supply and I guess Costa Rica be because of our geography. Well, we're just condemned to, to suffer, uh, these consequences, the, the, the effect of drug consumption. Terrible. You know, you're driving through the streets of Costa Rica and, and you're seeing homeless people on the streets. You're seeing people consuming what we assume is, you know, crack cocaine, uh, I guess the consumption of marijuana in, in public. It's, it's not that enforced. So there's a lot of disorder and, you know, we all know the, the story about disorder in security. You know, it comes from the. Theory of the broken glass, right, as we say down here. Um, but that's, uh, that's, that's a definite indicator that something's wrong with your country.

Yoyo 19:34

There's no doubt about it though, the increase, there's been a significant increase in crime, certainly since 2023. The increase is being notable. Do we know why since 2023, I mean, we know we were coming out of COVID. What happened around that time do you think that's led to this, this, um, increase?

Erik 19:55

Well, during COVID we saw, you know, people had to stay indoors. You know, there was restricted movement, you know, everyone's was wearing masks. And of course that creates a lot of stress on, on a human being. And what happens when you see a lot of human beings altogether, uh, being stressed out, you know, there's a definite increase in, in violence. We had a definite increase in violence. We had a definite increase in, uh, familial violence, uh, violence in the, in the family in Costa Rica. That was duly noted across the board. And then coming out of, you know, 2022. 2023, you're, you're seeing an economy that was, was, uh, disturbed that that stability that we had had to reorganize and recapture the same level of, uh. Sorry, uh, you, I'm, I'm thinking a lot in Spanish here. You know, I mostly spending most of the time in, in, in, in Spanish, so I have to, uh, do the translation quickly in, in my head, even though I am from a, uh, I am a native, uh, speaker of, of English. So, yeah, it's, uh, it's. It's been stressful, it's, uh, affected the economy and obviously, a lot of people with, uh, job losses, a lot of people with, healthcare situations. And so yeah, we were, we were struggling, but however, due to its, its money laundering. Didn't suffer as much as other countries. And, and, and that money launder people will argue, hey, you know, it's, it's the, it's that, uh, uh, black economy pushing up on the gray economy that sustains the, the, the white economy to use that type of metaphor. And, and we saw that clearly with, in 2008 when we had a, uh, a sort of a economic recession in the United States. Um. Speaking of that, you know, United States in relation to Costa Rica, we saw the, some of these narratives such as, you know, when people say, when United States, uh, sneezes, you know, Costa Rica catches a cold. And that's quite true because United States is here in Costa Rica, we are exporting close to 70% of our products to that country. So it is important. And, and there is definite linkage here through, you know, finances and, and, and the economy.

Yoyo 22:39

We talked in the pre-chat about there being quite a lot of ego in the security industry that can sometimes hold us back, can't it?

Erik 22:49

I would say ego is one of the most destructive forces in any human transaction. Especially in, in groups. Uh, so, and, and, and just the opposite of ego would probably be humility. And, and, and when you're, you know, you're watching people and for example, you know, I've, I've been training people in Hop, keto and Juujitsu and TaeKwonDo. And, you know, we're, we're watching a lot of people, you know, you're, they're doing the exercises, the, the katas, the, the roles, the competitive events, and, uh, you can tell a lot about a person through their physical behaviors and how they project their level of confidence or, uh, insecurities through what they're communicate, what they're communicating through their body. And, uh, when you get a lot of people, when you get a lot of black belts together in one room, I can tell you there's a lot of egos and, and you know, not even just in, in, in, in martial arts, we had the same situation in, you know, of course in scuba diving, you know, you get all these scuba divers on a scuba diving instructors on a, on a ship. The I, the egos, excuse me, the egos immediately come out. It's just amazing to see that. And, uh, and how we resolve that collectively, or, or we don't resolve that is just, it's amazing. Very much. It's amazing to watch, uh, that, and you can also compare this type of behaviors with, uh, with animals. You know, here on the farm you can watch the chickens and roosters. The ducks and the geese, and it's, you know, there's pecking orders, there's, uh, and how animals re resolve, uh, situations, you know, I mean, we're not that much different. Uh, you know, we have three dogs and, and I'm watching the psychology of these three, uh, pets constantly. I mean, it's, it's a learning. Uh, it's an, it's a laboratory. Each and every day

Yoyo 25:17

day. A a lot of people who know me know that I recently adopted a, a, a cat that we believe is around a year old. And, um, interestingly, um, you know, he'd been in a car accident. He was driving. No, I'm just kidding. Um, he was in a car accident. Uh, he came off quite badly. Um, I think he's given up his career as a stunt man. Um, but he basically, he broke his hip and his back leg and his front leg. So he had to go through a lot of recuperation. And after he was healed and he got the old clear from the doctors, he went up for adoption. And I found him. Nobody wanted him. But the reason I brought this up is because, um, and the other one's gonna walk across the screen now. Um. Is because do you see that tail? You know, they do that on purpose. The tail whip across the face. Um. The reason I, I wanted to bring this up in, in answer to what you were saying about studying psychology of animals as well, is because I, I've put some CCTV cameras around the house, you know, so I can watch how they're interacting with each other. There you go. Um, and it's really important to me. I, I did an awful lot of research on how to integrate the two of them and help, help help them to know that their own space was respected, but also to. Accept each other. And so without going into too much detail, it was textbook and worked really, really well. But, but when I look back at the C-C-T-V-I, I see my cat chewy that everyone, the, the cat, everybody knows. I, I found it most interesting as I was walking in and out the, the camera on floor level. So it watches my feet a lot and, um. And, and I was so interested watching my cat, just watching me, whereas I hadn't seen him. I know he is there, but I'm going about my, you know, walking around the house, walking in between rooms. And I just had no idea how he was observing me. And I found that most interesting because I think sometimes in our own busy lives we forget to see them. Really see them and I think it's uh, it's a nice lesson to learn. When I watched back and saw how much he was watching me to realize how important I was in his life. So I wanted to mention that. 'cause you mentioned the psychology of animals.

Erik 27:40

Well, that is the. You know, it's, it's on the farm, you know, growing up on a farm and not just reading, you know. Um, uh, what's the, who is the author of, uh, the Animal Farm?

Yoyo 27:54

God, I

Erik 27:55

never read that book. Famous, famous

Yoyo 27:58

George Orwell. Yeah. Orwell.

Erik 28:03

And, you know, and, and, and how people resolve, uh, problems. And, and it was interesting you were mentioning, you know, the, the hip of, of your cat that you adopted. What, what is his name?

Yoyo 28:15

Preston, named after, uh, Dr. Preston Burke from Grey's Anatomy.

Erik 28:20

Hey, Grey's Anatomy. That's great. Fantastic.

Yoyo 28:25

Hey, it's cool.

Erik 28:26

Preston. Preston. So, so. The idea that, uh, you know, we care about another individual, another being is, is fundamental to civilization. And, and basically, um, you know, archeologists had determined that that was the single most distinctive, uh, difference between, you know. Individual animals that, you know, don't live in herds or packs or, or, or groups versus, uh, animals that did, and the animals that did. You know, we as early human beings, you know, 200,000 or 300,000 years ago, they noted that, uh, uh, archeologist found, uh, a broken, I think femur. And you know, obviously if you had a broken femur 200, 300,000 years ago, I mean, you know, in the wild if, if you break a major bone, you are gonna die. Yeah. Who's gonna take care of you? And, and, and the idea that someone else would, um, take care of another individual and nurse them back to health. Uh. A lot about, uh, uh, who we were at at that time. And of course they, they could figure that out through carbon dating. And so, uh, I think it's, that's the start of humanity right there. And, and, and for us to, as, as people who have pets or, or farmers who take care of, of animals or livestock, that, uh, that's another sign of, you know, who we are as human beings.

Yoyo 30:24

You talk about cultural, uh, anthropology, actually, I mean look, um, I'm gonna explain it 'cause I had to go look it up. Um, it's a study of human societies and cultures and their development and that's quite important to you, isn't it, in terms of applying yourself as a security professional in, in society. Why is.

Erik 30:45

100% Yolanda. 100%. It's um, first of all, you know, we, in security, we used to think, hey, you know, just to, uh, take a, a PR 24 and, and strap it to this, uh, to security belt or handcuffs and, and a gun and, hey, you're, you're into security. We used to think security was something very simple and physical. Um, I think more people are opening their idea to, Hey, security is holistic. It includes everything and, and, and how we secure information, uh, people and, and property. That's, um, it's not as simple as we thought it was before. So we, we get into this area of, uh, complexity and complexity theory. And, um, you know, that's something I've been studying for the past, uh, uh, 15 years. And in the area of, of security, we, we, we started to look at, uh, first of all, me in the area of, of linguistics, I looked at, you know, how people are saying things, how, what people are communicating and how they're communicating things, how are they're resolving, uh, issues, problems day to day, and, uh. The words people use give you an idea of, you know, what's going on in inside their heads. And that's psychology right there. So you're, you're linking, uh, as an observer. You're, you're watching people's words and you are watching the correlation between the words and, and their actions respect to, you know, certain events or certain traumas or security situations. And that gives you an idea of, uh, things like resilience. Uh, or how we could better, uh, solve a problem, a security problem. Um, culture is everything. Is everything. We know. It. It's, it's, it's how we see the world around us and how we, and, and the words we use and, and the phrases, the, the sayings that all helps us create. An idea of, you know, what's, uh, of how we make sense of our environment. So, yes, yes. And security is part of, uh, culture and, and culture is part of security. You, you can't separate the two.

Yoyo 33:19

Now you're making this easy for me. 'cause you talked about complexity theory earlier. Um, and we've had guests come onto the Security Circle podcast and talk about complexity theory and most of them work in crisis management because in crisis management you have to be able to deal with complex. For those that don't know, complexity theory is like an interdisciplinary framework, isn't it? For understanding how systems, like many moving parts and organizations, economies, ecosystems, culture, for example, all figure out, uh, in a, in, in a, in an outcome. How do you apply complexity theory in your trainings as a security professional?

Erik 33:55

Well, it, it, it's actually a standard component in, in, for us, for in risk management and, uh, risk analysis and, um, building the, you know, assigning certain values to certain events and, and building a risk matrix. Right? Um, but even before that, we always talk about one of, uh, my favorite people, who is, uh, David John Snowden out of, uh, uh. Or, or in the area of, uh, he's actually Welsh. He is, uh, he is a trained, uh, physicist out of, I think it was Cambridge, university of Cambridge. So back in the 1970s, he, uh, was it physic? And I think he started working for, uh, I wanna say he started working for. Oh, I can't, IBM was it, is it IBM Well, or company

Yoyo 34:59

like IBM.

Erik 35:00

Yeah. Or company like IBM. Um, he started making questions about, you know, how we make sense of, of situations and he came up with a great framework, which is called the, the kind fin, uh, framework. It's, it's very well known. Um, he also developed a, a program what's called, uh, sense Maker, and that's for, uh, analyzing situations based on narratives. But, uh, for, for the moment, let's go back to the kind Finn framework, and basically it's sort of, uh, a window. If you could visualize, uh, a window with four panes. And then it, uh, helps one, make distinctions between, you know, simple things, uh, more complicated things, complex things, and complete chaos. And, uh, that gives people a great way to, to orient, Hey, well where are you? What, in what situation are you, for example, simple of something? Maybe like playing a game of tic-tac toe. And complicated would be, you know, playing chess

Yoyo 36:18

or playing tic-tac toe blindfolded.

Erik 36:21

Yeah, exactly. Well, that would be more of, you know, the area of what's we call that disorder, which is actually in, in the center part of that, uh, four pan, uh, window. Mm-hmm. Um, so in, in teaching these courses on, on crisis management, we always. Always bring in the, the kind thing, framework so people understand, you know, uh, they can orient and they can communicate and help visualize where they are or where they think they are in situations of, uh, of crisis. Uh, and from that of we also bring in, uh, the, the void cycle, um, which is the, you know, the observe, orient, uh, decide and then act. I'm sure you've heard of, of that, uh, of that, uh, process before. So all of these are, are very much related to, um, crisis management, you know, and we, we seek courses. We, and I also teach the, the, the incident, uh, command center course here in Costa Rica. We, we bring in these type of concepts because it, it helps people orient very quickly and get them to be more. Conscious of what they're seeing, what they're sensing.

Yoyo 37:44

It won't surprise some people hearing you that you majored in engineering and maths. In your earlier life, and I find especially after the papers you've sent me, you, you really go deep. You go really deep, you go deep academic, deep, deep. I mean, I know academics, but you go like deep, you're like a deep, deep diver academic You are. Because I read one paragraph of one of your papers and I had to, I had to have the dictionary by my side 'cause I had to look up. It's great. My brain knows more now than it did before. I met you Eric, but. I'm gonna hit on the subject of semiotic and cultural cognition in ir irregular warfare. And this is something that you're putting together at the moment, isn't it? With Mahesh Shastri. And it would be really nice to see, you know, your final, uh, product. But before we go into what semiotics are and cultural cognition. Uh, I'd like you to explain what irregular warfare is to the security professional, especially the one who is quite commonly our sponge brain listener, who just loves to learn in the security space. Let's, um, let's give this food for the brain now.

Erik 38:57

Well, sure. Yeah. We actually wrote, uh, three articles on that when, when we sent it to the. The, the competition, I don't know if we won yet or not. Uh, they, they haven't announced anything, but, uh, it's, uh, one of those areas, um, uh, irregular warfare is, is a very genuine and ambiguous term. You know, I mean, you could look at things from a very classical type of, uh, warfare situation

Yoyo 39:29

like guns, tanks, geopolitical es, escalations, but gimme an example of irregular warfare. In today's age,

Erik 39:36

irregular warfare is everything but that. So, oh my goodness. It's everything, but you know, you know, taking out the guns and, and doing the shooting or driving the tanks, you know, all that is, is a lot of fun. Mm-hmm. Irregular warfare is, is so much more sophisticated, so much more interesting, so much more of as, as you mentioned, it's, it's semiotics, it's, it's making sense of situations before they become violent. And of course that brings in the area of, you know, anti-terrorism and, you know, whereas you can say counter-terrorism is, you know, actually doing the, the kinetic stuff, the kinetics of, you know. Uh, blasting and exploding and, and shooting. So the non-kinetic version, or of that would be anti-terrorism? Yeah. That's one of the things we, we bring up in, in these terrorism courses. So anti-terrorism is, terrorism is like the preventative part. The counter-terrorism is, you know, once you're actually doing physical things, kinetic things. So, um, irregular warfare is basically. Doing all the non-kinetic things that you need to create stability. Okay. So, so how does that apply for security people in, in communities? Well, it's, it's about doing all the preventative things. It's, it's, it's making sure that people have their, their needs met. You know, when you think about the, the Maslow's,

Yoyo 41:11

you know, hierarchy of needs.

Erik 41:13

Yes, ma'am. And, and, and, and that's, that's something we all should know about coming out of, out of high school, you know, or people's needs.

Yoyo 41:21

I, I think Jen a are gonna ask for wifi to be on the bottom. Wifi and net network connectivity for my mobile phone should be a basic human need.

Erik 41:37

Well, okay, this, this is something else too. And, um, over the past 25 years, I, I, I've been in the area of, uh, insecurity, but also in the area of learning and, and, you know, you're watching these tendencies of their various generations and, and how they're solving their problems. And what you see is, uh, the people that were more dependent on technology, um, they are less resilient. And the people that went through the transitional phase of, of, you know, being physically present in solving a problem and the theoretical parts of, you know, the electronic and social media and, and virtual world. Uh, if you have both of those, then it's, you're gonna be much more resilient in, in, uh, resolving problems or, or conflicts.

Yoyo 42:35

Your, your paper semiotics in community engagement. For those that don't know, and again, you know, I'm humble. I had to look it up, but when you look it up, it makes an awful lot of sense. And also you do write here that semiotics is the study of science symbols, gestures, words, objects, and how they create meaning within specific cultural contexts. We've talked about, uh, the different types of cultural context, haven't we, in terms of cultural anthropology just now. But let's talk about the relationship with semiotics and irregular warfare.

Erik 43:11

Sure semiotics. Um, you need semiotics in irregular warfare. Irregular war warfare basically is creating, uh, stability situations or offering a counter plan, uh, that, uh, the, the enemy or your opposition force, uh, cannot offer. You're trying to solve a problem that they can't, and you're using a, you know, a. Hopefully legal methods to, to, to do that. Uh, the area of semiotics applies to, you know, to us as, as the good guys, as well as it does to the bad guys. And semiotics is basically, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a bigger picture than it is linguistics. And when you get to a culture, and I'm from, you know, United States and I came down to the Latin American culture and specifically Central America and more specifically to, to Costa Rica. And, uh, the importance of that is, you know, you need to learn the history of the, of the country, you know, uh, the basic structural, you know, dynamics of, you know, how the economy works and how a society is, is, you know, working through its problems to create, uh. Situations. You have to understand the economy. You have to understand, you know, a myriad of factors and, um, you have to understand how they solve those problems. And part of that is understanding their language. So, you know, of course I had, you know, Spanish in, in high school. I mean, it was the easiest out of the three languages. Uh, you know, we had, uh, a choice between, uh, Spanish, German, and French. And, uh. So I, I tried to take the, the easiest route and thankfully I did. Um, so I had the Spanish background and, uh, you know, using that, uh, skillset, uh, it was so much easier for me to, to come down here as a, as a security instructor. Um, as for semiotics, you know, I took a, uh, linguistics course in at uc, Davis. Which was actually, I loved it, actually loved it better than mathematics. It was a lot more fun. It was a lot more, uh, interesting to me. But, um, I took, uh, math because I thought it was gonna, you know, solve the bigger problems. Um, did it work? Actually, I actually, I enjoyed both. I enjoyed both areas. I enjoyed mechanical engineering and mathematics and, and linguistics. Uh. And it's, so these tool sets are just great for, for security,

Yoyo 45:51

I chose Russian. I was just so intent on doing something different. And of course, you know, it was the eighties. We were 20 years outside the Cold War, if not maybe seven, uh, 10. And I thought, well, maybe Russian might come in handy. I wish I wished I'd gone to Spanish. Wow. But yet I went for Russian and, uh, forgot a lot of it. But your, your Spanish has supported you well then. Definitely considering you live in Costa Rica and they speak Spanish. Oh, yeah,

Erik 46:27

definitely. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Russian. That's so exotic. Oh, goodness, Yolanda. Wow. It's, uh, yeah, you just, uh, in, in Arabic, I mean, Russian and Arabic, they're just so difficult. I mean, the, the letters, I mean, you're, you're stuck on that. There's a huge hump to, to overcome before you get to the good stuff. And yeah, in

Yoyo 46:47

fact, I learned, I learned a bit of Arabic as well, and Arabic's very, very hard because in English you have a capital letter, A and A, a lowercase A. But in Arabic you have a capital, a lowercase, and then you have the A that would appear in the middle of the word and it looks different. So instead of having two forms to learn, you have three. Across the whole of the, of the range. And it's like, oh. And then of course there's the whole right to left thing, which, um, is, is, is a challenge. And you can't necessarily, you are looking, you are looking. To relate to something, you know, but you can't because the letter you think you found looks different, whether it's at the beginning, the end, or the middle of a word. So yeah, huge challenge. I, I, I mean, I mean, admiration for anyone that can learn anything like Mandarin Chinese, or Arabic or Russian even, 'cause they're, they're, they're very complex languages to learn.

Erik 47:45

Yeah. It's, it's, it's, and when you're learning a language, you're, you, you need that payoff, right? You need to feel like you're doing something that's fun and, and, and enjoyable. I mean, you know, beating my head against Russian, beating my head against Arabic. No way. It's just, you know, I admire the people that do that. I mean, come on. Yeah.

Yoyo 48:05

I'd rather learn trigonometry or algebra, and I had absolutely no intent of wanting to learn those while I was in school. I'd rather gouge my eyes out with my shoelaces. So that just gives you an idea about how hard Arabic is to learn Russian. But um. So I have to ask you, because I didn't want you to go down a dark rabbit hole with this, but in terms of semiotics and community engagement, semiotics, you know, symbols, et cetera, how does the current unilateral culture of propaganda, misinformation and disinformation lean into semiotic warfare Almost.

Erik 48:43

Excellent question. Excellent question, Yolanda. Um,

Yoyo 48:46

that's why I'm the interviewer. You know, Eric. It would be a bit difficult if it was the other way round, wouldn't it?

Erik 48:55

That's another, that's another fun area, you know, psychological operations and propaganda. You know, it, it's just fascinating. It's, it's, it's deep. And, and when you're working with communities, I mean, you're always trying to make sense of, you know, what people are saying, what they're, you know, what are they talking about, where are they going? And most of all, you know what they're not talking about. So you, you've got areas of, of understanding, right? And of course, the more you spend time in the community, the better idea you have of, you know, what they're saying, um, how they're saying it and, and what they're not saying. Okay. And, um, you know, you're talking to so many people, you're interviewing so many people, you're getting an idea of, and, and, you know, it's not an interrogation. It, it's, you know, you are getting information. Um, out of the community to, to understand what their problems are. And, uh, you know, is, is it, you know, the lack of, uh, fresh water or the lack, lack of potable water, the lack of electricity constantly. Um, are the, um, suffering certain types of, uh, ail illnesses due to the lack of healthcare, uh, lack of, lack of, uh, economic, uh, opportunity. Uh, are there competing, uh, situations such as, you know, the, the local, uh, bad guy, you know, selling drugs or selling underage people for, for sex? Uh, there, there are a lot of things going on. Um, you know, at one time it, it's a, it's a complex environment and you know, you're listening. To people and you're listening to the community and community, mostly community. You know, we work mostly with community leaders and, and trying to, uh, get a better idea of, you know, what's going on. And that means, you know, taking, you know, various types of people and, you know, trying to give them better tools to make sense of, of, of their own community. You know, that they're, that they're leading.

Yoyo 51:07

What's gonna happen in the future, Eric, we've got a lot of people gonna come to you for, you know, some kind of decent answer.

Erik 51:19

Well, thank you for that. I'm not really sure I have all the answers, but, um, I am having a lot of fun here in Costa R I'm, I'm just, it's, it's a learning process. It's for me, I, I enjoy learning and, you know, I'm, I'm gonna. Incredible learning environment, and it's super stimulating. It's, it's, uh, um, I'm, I'm enjoying this, I'm having fun. Um, and I'm having fun with a lot of other good people that, uh, we're all on the same team. Um, at the moment, I, my hopes are up, my hopes are up for, uh, a better situation here in, in, in Costa Rica, and I'm thankful that, uh, the United States. Was able to intervene. Uh, we had the DEA here in Costa Rica, as well as other, other, uh, government, uh, entities, FBI, uh, and other people from, uh, from Washington to uh, put some order to the situation, which was completely out of control. The United States, uh, law enforcement agencies have, uh, fingered about five important people in the, uh, drug trafficking business here. And, uh, hopefully that sends a, a strong and, and clear message to the, the bad guys.

Yoyo 52:52

So I advise, uh, most of my mentees to have a virtual advisory board. So when it comes to Mexico, Eduardo Huardo my security go-to in Mexico with, uh, Ecuador. It's of course the wonderful Hermo. So Kevin Palacios, who is amazing by the way. You are my Costa Rican security professional on my virtual advisory board, Eric d Erikson

Erik 53:25

Well, well thank you for that, Yolanda. Thank you so much. And, and of course, thank you for, for having me and, and spending, uh, this time to exchange some ideas about, uh, uh, what's going on in this part of the world. Thanks for reaching out. Uh, the Security Circle podcast is,, is wonderful to, to listen to, and, and you folks always bring in the, the most interesting of, of conversations.

Yoyo 53:52

I mean, you know, a little blackmail helps now and then, and you know, I've had to obviously send some ransomware, and some, some kidnapping requests. But, um, mainly people say yes, I haven't had any, I only had Tony Blair's office say no to me. Can you believe even? He said, no, I can't believe it. Tony Blair. Wake up, smell the coffee. Um, he's got a great book out around leadership, which is why I really wanted to speak to him. Um, what can I say? Eric D. Erickson, with the D being very important. Thank you so much for joining us on the Security Circle podcast.

Erik 54:25

Yolanda, thank you so much