EP 192: Forged at Sandhurst — A Life of Intelligence, Service and Purpose with Fiona Galbraith British Military Intelligence Veteran

“Where we should make law is where society can’t regulate itself.”

EP 192: Forged at Sandhurst — A Life of Intelligence, Service and Purpose with Fiona Galbraith

Fiona Galbraith is an extraordinary woman whose life has been shaped by service, courage and an enduring commitment to developing others.

Commissioned from the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst in 1995, Fiona served for 25 years in the British Army as an intelligence officer. Her remarkable career included service with the Iraq invasion force, deployments to Afghanistan and the responsibility of making high-stakes assessments when accuracy, judgement and the courage to hold your ground truly mattered.

In this deeply enriching conversation, Fiona reflects on the resilience forged at Sandhurst, the power of military camaraderie and the realities of operating in some of the world’s most demanding environments. She explores how expertise and repeated experience shape our judgement:

“I learned to trust my instinct—but instinct becomes reliable only when it has been trained.”

And when circumstances demand immediate action:

“If you stop to weigh the odds, you may have already missed the moment.”

The conversation moves from military intelligence into leadership, communication, social media, violence and the changing meaning of community. Fiona offers a fascinating perspective on how young people experience patriotism, justice and service—and why their minds have become a new battleground.

Now helping to prepare young people for purposeful careers in intelligence, resilience and global security, Fiona brings wisdom, optimism and an unmistakable belief in the next generation.

This is more than the story of an exceptional military career. It is a conversation about trained instinct, moral courage, purposeful leadership and what it means to serve—whether on the battlefield, in the classroom or within society.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/fionagalbraith/

Security Circle ⭕️  is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

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Speaker 0:01

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Speaker 2 0:36

Hi, I'm Yolanda And welcome to the Security Circle Podcast, produced in association with IFPO, the International Foundation for Protection Officers. This podcast is all about connection, bringing you closer to the greatest minds, boldest thinkers, trailblazers, and change makers across the security industry. Whether you are here to grow your network, spark new ideas, or simply feel more connected to the world of protection and risk, you are in the right place wherever you are listening from. Thank you for being a part of the Security Circle journey..

Yoyo 1:16

Fiona Galbraith, thank you so much for joining us on the Security Circle podcast. Only the best of the best get past this threshold. We survived the heat. You've survived much more than that to actually get here today. How are you doing?

Fiona 1:32

Yeah. Very well. That's so funny you should open with the best of the best, because, I had the privilege of presenting the awards at, a college I work with last night, and I tried to define excellence, and I came up with different types of excellence, but I said the most common definition of excellence is usually the best of the best.

Yoyo 1:50

Yeah

Fiona 1:51

that's quite nice to hear you say that. I think, oh, I'll take that. We'll, we'll somehow turn that into excellence. That's great.

Yoyo 1:57

I mean, if you think about it, it doesn't bode well for a podcast to have really boring people- who've got nothing very interesting to talk about, unless, of course, I wanted to capitalize on prime time helping people get to sleep.

Fiona 2:10

Well- Well, that's another thing. I was, I was talking to someone yesterday and I said, you know And we were talking about sleep, 'cause obviously, we're recording this during the heatwave, and I'm in the Cotswolds, which is right bang in the center of the red zone, the red, dreaded red zone. And, we were talking about, you know, how everyone's been awake in the middle of the night, and I was explaining how, for whatever reason, if I wake up in the middle of the night, I have to kind of like a child, I have to put myself to bed again. So I go and I brush my teeth and I, I go through my whole bedtime routine at, like, half past 2:00 in the morning, which I know is ridiculous, because I probably have to wake up more to go to sleep.

Yoyo 2:48

You make absolute sense. I get a bit of restless leg, and the heat makes my restless leg even worse. Yeah. So it's like I can't settle, I can't get cozy and snuggly. You know, even when it's warm, you can still settle and rest, but I literally have to take myself out of bed, go for a walk around the house. Even if it's just to go and guzzle a bit of milk, you know, from the container in the fridge. Yeah. But it's my house, my milk. I can do what I like. That's how I roll. Yeah. And then I sort of take myself back upstairs. It didn't work. I had a little nibble of some quiche. That didn't work. I came back down again and I put a movie on and I opened the back door and I It was cooler, but it was 3:00 in the morning before I finally went back up to We're, we're starting to see this kind of weather in more, um, frequency, but I think you've had hotter temperatures than a mere old sort of 34. Weren't you saying 52, Fiona? Yeah,

Fiona 3:39

52 I think's my record. But I would say that I was acclimatized to it. So, yeah, as you know, I served in the army for, 25 years and, um, I was part of, the, Iraq, invasion force. Um, and, uh, yeah, that, uh, you know, we lived in the desert. We had alternate headquarters which were in big tents, and I was working nights, so I was trying to sleep during the day, then, which was pretty tricky. In fact, they did a, a, um- a, a test on me, afterwards just about my sleep because sleeping during the day in the desert is pretty hard unless you've got some proper shade, and we didn't. We literally had some Vango tents, if you remember. Those people who are old enough to remember sort of orange, triangular tents, that's what we were sleeping in, and they are ovens in the desert heat. Um, and I could sleep. So, so there was myself and a chap called Chris. We were the two intelligence officers overnight, and, we would, we had a pretty busy night. You know, every hour just about there was some routine report or briefing we had to deliver, and obviously that takes a bit of preparation. So we were pretty busy all through the night. But,, we were getting really tired, and of course what we were doing was quite, intellectually demanding sometimes, and our judgment mattered, so we needed enough sleep. So we worked out that there were two almost one-hour gaps in the course of our overnight shift. And so each of us was allowed a 45-minute sleep, during that period. And at that time, I could sleep on a six-inch by eight-inch bench, and I could just lie down on that on my back. You know, the sort of thing that if you sat on now you'd probably fall off, you know? And I know I couldn't sleep on it now, but I'd just sleep on that on my back, and I would sleep. I think I was cheeky. I s- think I slept for a full hour. But, you know, and then I'd be all right, and I did that for about three months. So it was a relief then to get out of the desert to be quite honest. And we went into the headquarters I was working for, went into Basra International Airport. And, yeah, the 52 degrees comes by because, it's a, it was a modern airport, you know, 20 years ago, and, um, hadn't long been built, and therefore it was built to be air-conditioned. But the air-conditioning wasn't working 'cause, uh, just been subject to a war. So we were sleeping in baggage halls and whatever else, and my particular s- sleep space was in quite a small room somewhere in the center of the, yeah, of the building. And,, yeah, I well remember we were given these little thermometers, but I don't remember being told what to do if the thermometer registered a particularly high temperature. But I do remember that I would go to bed with a two-liter bottle of water- which I could basically drink all of almost in my sleep, not being conscious of drinking of it. I didn't have to get up, but the sheet became just sodden, so I was clearly just sweating that water out. And I do remember one night looking at this thermometer, and it was 52 degrees centigrade, which is quite hot.

Yoyo 7:09

Wow.

Fiona 7:09

The human body is not really supposed to tolerate that, but it is amazing, whether it's sleep deprivation or extreme heat, what acclimatization can enable you to do, and continue to operate, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Yoyo 7:25

I would say that there's another factor that you should add, and you're probably being very modest, Fiona, but I think resilience and fortitude, because I certainly had that when I met you and when I heard you speak for the first time, which I'm very privileged to say, I was hosting the Women in Security conference, and you were one of the speakers, along with Her Royal Highness Princess Anne, Princess Royal, and, and what a great day that was, and you told some amazing stories. And because I was kind of working on the day, that was my, my ki- you know, I wasn't there for a jolly, it, it was certainly s- I wasn't able to give you my full focus, but what I did hear of, of your story was phenomenal, and I think resilience in those temperatures and just, I don't know, you've got this thing about you that maybe you don't show that you're stressed and irritated and unhappy. Let me take you back to being in the military. I want to ask you, because I think this is relevant, you talked about Basra, you talked about going to Iraq. Was that your first tour, and was that your first experience of very hostile foreign territory?

Fiona 8:33

No. So I commissioned from Royal Military Academy Sandhurst in 1995. I will tell you a little bit about Bosnia, but if you don't mind, I will tell you about 20 Platoon, which is the, group of female cadets who, I went through that almost a year of training with and who I commissioned with., And the reason I wanna do that is because- we have all become a pretty resilient bunch of, bunch of women, and one of whom has just last weekend paraded on Trooping the Colour because she is now, in charge, I forget, I'm sorry, what the official, title is, but she's in, in charge of all the horses, carriages, motor transport for the royal household.

Yoyo 9:25

Wow

Fiona 9:26

and, you know, that's, you know, that's amazing. The first woman to do that. I've got a dear friend who's just in the process of retiring from the Army as a major general. She was in 20 Platoon. And so on. Those are the military ones. People left in during their careers that have gone on to be senior leaders in schools, in business. And so- You know, if I just look at the 20-ish young women who started our careers together in 20 platoon at Sandhurst, there is something about that Sandhurst experience that has taken already, you know, young people showing some promise, 'cause we were selected to be there. But we have all become successful in our own right w- without, you know, any significant exceptions I can think of. There is something about, you know... I am not unique. There are many of us about, forged in circumstances that no doubt reach back into our childhood. But, um, you know, we are a rich gang of women, and, uh, we recently met... Sandhurst does, uh, makes it very easy for people to meet for significant reunions, and we met at our 20-year point, and we met recently at our 30-year point, and we had a lovely dinner. Some of us hadn't seen each other for 30 years, but you wouldn't have known. Um, and that's another wonderful thing, actually, about military camaraderie. I'm sure it exists elsewhere as well, but there's something unique about it, and women can do it just as well as men, this supportive camaraderie. Um, and we had a wonderful evening. And of course, in the modern era, we, there, we had a WhatsApp group to make sure we all turned up on time, and every so often something happens and we are praising each other and bigging each other up on this WhatsApp group. And it's not full of the sort of rubbish that annoys me in such groups. Just something happens, so-and-so's done well, somebody's won an award, and we all go, "Yay, that's really amazing. Let's celebrate it." It's a wonderful club, if you like, to be part of.

Yoyo 11:40

I wanna tap into that resilience a little bit more. Was there... Because, number one, if you could answer, I'm gonna do, like, one of these kind of like TV journalist thing, and I'm gonna ask you multiple questions in one. First of all, what was your motivation to join the UK military? And secondly, whilst clearly you have all of the right qualities to be successful, what was the first point in your career where you thought, "Whoa, I think I'm at the limits of my abilities here, my coping strategies, my resilience is being tested"?

Fiona 12:16

Um, okay. So why did I join? I mean, just really naive reasons. I liked playing sport. At school I captained the, you know, various sports teams, basketball and hockey, and I played music. I mean, early, as a child, I announced to my parents that I wanted to be a petrol pump attendant. So everything was up from there, particularly as clearly I wouldn't have had a long career given the automation of pumps before I even left school. But for those who don't know, you used to drive in and you'd tip a chap to, and it was a chap, to put 20 pounds of petrol into your car. No, so it was i- the search for adventure. It was the search for adventure. And in fact, I think if I could have joined the Navy, which wasn't available to women, at the time, I would have. Well, you could join the Navy, but you couldn't go to sea. And I since have done a a lot of, um, um, sailing, offshore yachtmaster and so forth. So I, I, I've, I've done that and really enjoyed it. So there's a possibility my career would have gone in a slightly different way. But that, sense of seeking adventure, seeking travel, being outdoors, being active, that was always part of it. And, uh, I'm a little bit older now, and I, I sometimes don't have the physical strength to do some things I'd like to do, and that really, really hurts because I was a really strong, active, uh... My father had a vineyard and I worked on the vineyard and, you know, and I was a, I was a good, strong worker. So I think that whole outdoors robustness, is an important part of my makeup. As to, when did I sort of meet a challenge that was, that really was a challenge, I mean, there were some, but I genuinely can't put my finger on- A moment physically or where my life was in danger? I mean, I've been to some, I've been in some very peculiar places. But I think the challenges I faced, and maybe it's because I was an intelligence officer, the challenges I faced have been, mental challenges where I've been, where I've known that I've got to make a call. Oh, yes, I can think of one, and I won't tell you the details of it. But, something had happened and, and I was concerned that, the threat that had caused this incident still very much existed. And I came under some pressure to, to revisit that assessment because it had a huge impact on, I mean, on, on very big plans. And and I had... I did revisit it. I did have a look at it. But I didn't revisit it in the way that the senior officers wanted me to revisit it. I should say not the boss because, my experience is that the commanders, you know, the people who are selected to be the senior, you know, general officers or equivalent, they really do want the truth. But you find sometimes, my experience has been you find some- relatively senior people somewhere in the middle, who really don't want to have to take the implications of a relatively junior officer making a big call. I know the public narrative and expectation is that the armed forces are ruled by hierarchy and rank is all, but it really isn't. I think, one gets promoted based on technical competence and leadership, ability for sure, and leadership has a currency which is much stronger in the armed forces than I've experienced it elsewhere. But in just the same way as in any walk of life, if you earn the respect of your peers, your juniors, your seniors, that comes regardless of rank, and you'll be asked for your advice or followed or whatever is the relationship that's in play at the time based on having proved your worth. I think, yeah, in fact, I can think of another example as well, where I've really been put under pressure by people I'm working with who are perhaps a little bit older and consider themselves a little bit wiser. And ironically, of course, and this is a truth for everyone, that if you are certain in your facts and you know you're right, then holding your ground is what earns your respect and gives you the credibility next time round, and perhaps you won't be questioned so strongly next time round. Of course, that's a double-edged sword because if you're certain you're right and you're wrong, that's undone the whole thing. And I think, you know, I think just reflecting a little bit further on that maybe, I know that earlier in my career, when I wasn't... I didn't know myself and perhaps I wasn't as good at evaluating the evidence and making assessments, whether in the intelligence field or subsequently making business decisions or, you know, decisions around, supporting people, what I've, what I found is that I could- I w- I would perhaps not speak up, and then later I would find that I had been right, and I wished I had spoken up. And I have learnt in the last 10, 15 years or so to go with my instinct. I'm a great believer in, in common system one, system two thinking, and I think that, you know, and I'm interested in bias and where it comes from, and I strongly believe that you can train yourself such that your instinct, is reliable. So, for example, for a military example not relating to me, but when you hear someone heroic say, "Oh, I really didn't do something heroic, it was instinctive," I think that's because it's a trained instinct, because they've been drilled in different circumstances over and over and over again. And so the muscle memory, if you like, or the decision that has to be made is made in that system one thinking without having to weigh the odds Of course, and that's a military requirement because if you stop to weigh the odds, you've missed the moment. I think cognitively, I have got myself to a maturity where, in areas I'm familiar with, my instinct, my system one thinking, is pretty good. And so I generally will go with it., And of course, that gets you into all sorts of problems because then you forget that you've got to take everyone else with you as well.

Yoyo 19:04

Do you know, as you were talking, you were describing incredibly well, the, character James Stagg in the movie Pressure. I don't know if you've seen it yet. James Stagg, So basically it's a World War II thriller that chronicles basically the tense and true untold story of the 72 hours that led up to D-Day. And it focused on the kind of agonizing high stakes decision that General Eisenhower and his chief meteorologist, Captain James Stagg, had to make in order to, execute the Allied invasion, and that Allied invasion was significant in ending the war. And Stagg was the most, experienced meteorologist at the time. So compare this to intelligence, you know, and he's relying on several different sources of information from the upper hemisphere right down to the lower hemisphere, and from the oceans and wind and everything. And he's using his best guess, basically, of all the information at his disposal, having been quite robust in trying to get that information as accurately and as quickly as possible so that he can go to Eisenhower, who's a general in the American Army, and say, "Look, it's a go or no-go." And it's an absolutely gripping, gripping program. And I love the fact that it's a true story, and I love that obviously, most people know that I'm really keen on the weather. But I love the fact that that's where the Met started, during the war. That's what the m- the Meteorological Society is it was born, in the war, and it became a critical element to, forming part of the intelligence, model, f- for how the military operated. But I also found it really quite, intriguing to see a young Eisenhower being depicted, because obviously he went on to be the President of the United States. And I don't know, very British, very, very old-fashioned British accents, you know, from, from, from back in those days. But let's talk about accent. Is it true that when you go to Sandhurst you have to put on a different accent? 'Cause my family were in the military, and we're always taking the mickey out of one in particular because he always puts on this v- this voice. And then we're like, "You don't normally speak like that, why are you speaking like that now?" Because obviously they were majors in the army. What is it about the communication style, then, of of very experienced Sandhurst, leavers?

Fiona 21:27

I don't, I don't know about accents. I mean, I mean it, it is a reasonably refined place. Um- Yeah I suppose. But I think as the... I mean, I was there, as I say, 30 years ago, but, I, I would say that, the more important thing about communication, and that trips me up now, the thing about communication in the Armed Forces, it's very direct and very precise- Yeah because we're not wasting time. I've said elsewhere, that I have to go back on routine emails, and go back these days and put something in that says, "Oh, I hope you're well." Because I just start in on the, the whatever it is, and then I'm like, "No, don't do that." I wrote one yesterday actually, 'cause I was running to keep up with myself yesterday, and I wrote one to someone in, a human resource department, who was asking me for a very simple piece of information. I just wrote, "In haste," and then three words for the answer, and I just thought, "She, a young woman, is not gonna get that at all, and I need to go back later today and, and explain that that was just me getting that done." But I think, and, I mean, I've did it as well. I used to, I used to, my language used to go absolutely down the toilet when I was, deployed. And I used to, in the sort of run-up to coming home again, every time I swore I'd give myself 10 press-ups, you know, just to try and train myself. And I remember phoning my mother a couple of times and being very abrupt, and saying, "Wait", and wait means I'm just gonna go and check that information. You say it on the radio, you say, "Wait," and you check the information, then you come back with a full answer 'cause you don't have it. I remember saying, "Wait," to my mother, and then going, "I'm really sorry. Hang on a minute, let me just go and find that out and I'll just check for you." And so there's sort of the clipped style. If people are- deliberately changing their accents, then they're playing a game that's unnecessary. But I do think there's something in if you travel widely, I certainly I was brought up overseas and then in Kent where my father was horrified by the accent I picked up. And I don't still speak with a Kentish accent, but sometimes there are some words that come out that are absolutely broad Yorkshire. And I, and I did work in Yorkshire for two years, but I also worked in Cyprus, which has a heavy expat community. And so I know that my voice and my vocabulary changes. I commanded some American soldiers, for a few months, and I did work hard on my language then because the American vocabulary, not only is it different from ours, and we know that, but it's actually much narrower. And I enjoy language, so I like to use idioms and metaphors. And you know if you let yourself go, you could come up with whole paragraphs which have no sense in them whatsoever unless you've got all the cultural references. So I enjoy the richness of our language, and I celebrate the fact that we adapt our language to suit different environments.

Yoyo 24:43

I think I, I love your bit about swearing, and how you do press-ups. I mean, I've Most people who know me know I've got a bit of a potty mouth, and in fact, I got told off for swearing, playing netball, recently in a netball match. The umpire reported me I mean, it's the most naughty I've been in years. And I'm thinking most people know that I have a bit of a potty mouth. I mean, if I d- if I had tasked myself the same way you did, I would be probably a world champion press-upper- by now. But look, communication is important, isn't it? How much did communication play into your career? Because you've also been able to very, very eloquently turn that communication style of yours into trying to winning, y- you know, win hearts and minds in younger generations. Take us through an evolution of why it's so important, why you were good at it, and why now you've decided to use that skill to, to, pay it forward.

Fiona 25:45

No one has ever framed that in that way with me before. That's very interesting. I would say if I'm good at communicating, it probably is, because of the professional role I've played. I mean, the role of the intelligence officer is to, you know, is multifaceted. You, y- as you get more senior, you have to direct operations such that when you need it, you will have, the, intelligence reporting that you require to make an assessment. So that, you know, there's a skill there in foresight, and being able to sp- you know, a bit like a chess player, be a few m- moves ahead, because collecting intelligence takes time. And then there's the skill in, usually with a team, making an assessment. We've talked a little bit about sometimes you might have to make a hard call and stick by it. But that's all useless if you can't then communicate your findings, and your assessment, and of course back it up in an eloquent and compelling way. And there are examples in my career, where I failed to do that. I've got details wrong. I remember in an exercise, just getting something wrong, and my senior colleague who was responsible for all the planning just said, "You, you've got that wrong, haven't you?" And I was like, "Yeah,, I'm a bound out," which means I was about 24 hours out in the way I briefed it., and which was difficult 'cause we were doing it in front of all the commanding, senior officers who were gonna lead formations. And, and so we, I was basically undoing all the planning by just making a 24-hour mistake. And so he punished me quite cleverly by making me rewrite the whole plan, which was quite a big bit of work. So that was a very effective, and we're still very good friends, but- that was a very effective way. He said, "Well, I..." You know, he didn't even say, "Well, I'm not gonna rewrite your, it for your mistake." He just said, "You'll have to rewrite that, Fiona," which was a long period. But I think if you, and I, you know, I work, now, in a university where I'm- leading, global security and intelligence course, and I put a great deal of store on bringing out the confidence in my students over those three years to be able to communicate. And being able to communicate verbally is becoming more important, being able to communicate in writing. We still do in this profession have to write succinct reports. And there is an argument, I suppose, for how much detail you put in them, but at the end of the day you have to be able to communicate the top idea, whether it's in writing or verbally, very precisely, but very accurately. I think that probably some of that carries across, to the way I communicate now. And I also know it carries across into an impatience with people who go on and on and on, and you just think, "Could you please get to the point?" I think that's disrespectful of people's time. But also, when people have that sort of mo- monotone type of delivery, they often hide the important point somewhere in the middle. I mean, they don't mean to, but you have to concentrate quite hard to pick out the bit you actually need. And I'd much rather people were confident and had thought in advance. That's the key point, and I always advise people to try and go with the key point first rather than build up to it last. And so if you go with the key point first, what, the Americans used to call the bottom line up front, the bluff, which is a lovely tautological moment. So if you go with the key point, and then you build the case afterwards, your audience is understanding the case you're building in the context of already knowing the fact you're backing up. And I think you can do that... You know, we could even do that socially, you know? It's just an easier way to communicate. And it tends to remove, it tends to remove, confusion. Because if I start telling you a long story and I'm keeping the punchline till the end, you'll probably interrupt me halfway through, and we may never get there. See, we never got to Bosnia, and I was gonna tell you about that. There we go.

Yoyo 30:15

Tell me about Bosnia

Fiona 30:17

Um, oh, it was my first, um- Yes first deployment. First deployment. Yes. Yeah. Straight after Sandhurst. And interesting, that's one of the very few times where, I think in the Army it's the only time, where, being female's turned out to be a disadvantage. So I'll tell you about Bosnia, and then I'll compare it to a more recent Afghan example to- Yeah show you how in my experience things have changed a great deal. So in, so I was commissioned, I said, in '95, and we had f- family friends at the time. And they had a contact who was a commanding officer, infantry commanding officer in the Army. And this particular chap was getting ready to take his battalion to Bosnia. So in 1995, '96, and through the sort of family grapevine, they had heard that I spoke Serbo-Croat, 'cause I, studied a bit of Serbo-Croat, doing my university degree. And, so I knew that this conversation was going on, that this particular officer had applied to Sandhurst to see whether he could get me out a bit early to do a bit of training and deploy with the battalion. I'm not sure that would have ever been allowed because Sandhurst, you know, is Sandhurst, and you gotta march up the steps and have your moment of glory. But, anyway, this was the thing. He wanted me for my language skills. And, eventually I got a letter from him, handwritten, two pages, beautiful letter that I've still got somewhere, and it basically said, "I'm really sorry. I've determined that I can't take you to Bosnia because there are no facilities or, for women." And he... And I think it was probably a very sensible call, although today it feels very archaic and odd, but, I would have been the only woman in the battalion, which may or may not have been a problem, but psychologically it may well have been for my first deployment, because women do need the company of other women from time to time, just as men need to be with other men for, you know, mutual support. It's important. So I don't think that's why he made the decision, but actually I think that should have been a factor. The fact that I might have to use some loos that were covered in graffiti and a bit grubby and probably had some pornography in them, I think I could have dealt with, but, you know, for a first deployment. So that was a shame, and that's the only time I'm aware of. And I've had a, my career in the Army was absolutely marked by, as far as I'm aware, equality of opportunity and advancement by merit, and, uh, I have had a thoroughly positive time. So much that I love telling people that I was deployed, the second time I went to Afghanistan, part of my role invo- involved mentoring a more senior Afghan army officer. Um, and,, there was a lot of concern about whether it would be possible in that culture for a female officer to- lead in a way, a more senior male Afghan officer. And I said, "I think it'll be all right. You know, we'll, we'll make it work." I didn't. I was taking the Richard Branson approach of just say you can do it and then work out how afterwards. But the first time I met him, he showed me photographs of his family who were up in Kabul and we were down in Helmand province. He brought me a present of some traditional Afghan women's clothing, and we had a very domestic conversation. I didn't let on that I didn't have children of my own. I think I made up, you know, I sort of adopted my sister's children for the conversation as a way to bond and talk. And we had this domestic conversation and it it was in no way inappropriate in any way, but that's how we bonded. And of course, he hadn't bonded with my predecessor who was trying to have a macho conversation with him and trying to You know, and they just, it just hadn't worked. They were different types of men, and they were butting up against each other the way men sometimes do. And with me, he was able to take it in a different way, and then once we'd established that relationship, I was able to suggest things. And let's face it, you know, that's often the way to persuade a man to do something in any relationship, you know, professional or otherwise. Suggest it, make it their idea. They may or may not acknowledge it came from you, but if you're, if you're in the position where you just wanna get the job done, that shouldn't matter. And, um, and we did get the job done. Um, so this business about cultural blocks on, um, female officers, I, I didn't find to be the experience. But I would say he was from Kabul, um, and therefore had a more sort of urban approach and perhaps, you know, someone who was a Pashtun from, um, Helmand might have found that a bit more, bit more difficult.

Yoyo 35:18

But I've also observed that you don't have ego, and maybe you've never had that ego. You know, we have an internal ego and an outs- and an external- Mm ego, and you just don't seem to project that ego that would ultimately be a handicap for some people to get on in certain situations. And maybe that's been, been much easier for you to acclimate. But I have to, have to ask you now, tapping into communications again to, um- Younger people, younger mindset, patriotism. The younger people now are coming under a bit of scrutiny around are they as patriotic as, you know, they should be. And I, I find this a very interesting thing to talk about because you c- you have to ask yourself, you know, in 1935 England, was everybody patriotic then in terms of ready to step up and go to war? Now I think it's a bit of a journey that, you know, the communities in our country have to go through to be prepared, and that's why we have a preparedness for war department. Um, younger people, younger minds, how do we reach them, Fiona? Because you're, you're doing that now and quite successfully. What's your story?

Fiona 36:35

So, um- Yeah. Okay. Um, the... I think you have to look at the influences on people. So in 1935, um, one's community was the village or suburb one lived in. You were influenced by generations of your family and your family's friends. Um, if something upsetting happened, you went to see Auntie, you know, so-and-so next door. Um, your dog walked itself to the butcher and had sausages across the road. The policeman let it cross the road. I mean, it's a whole different world. It was everybody had the same, um, type of cultural references. Go forward another generation, everyone had been through the war together, same pain points, same, you know, everybody had lost a relative. Everybody then watched the coronation together on each other's TVs. The rich person, marginally richer, bought the TV, and everyone in the street came round. Um, people started watching the same TV shows. Everyone went home, had the same cultural experience together. Um, and whilst, you know, all through our living memory and beyond, there have been waves of migration, that's not what I'm talking about, because there've always been those cultural experiences that are the same on the fringes of those different populations that have come and been part of our rich history. But this- Idea of community now, of course, is the virtual community, and the influences tend to be external. And I think young people now are in some very close-knit communities, but they're not multi-generational communities. You know, I don't operate in the same community as the younger generation in my family, and I don't operate in the same community. And of course, I don't live in close proximity to my mother, who still survives. Um, you know, and I- in fact, I've, I've just recently been to, um, the funerals of a couple of, um, relatives from that older generation, and I've had to crisscross the country to do it because we no longer live in those physical communities. And then when we look at those virtual communities, there's a lot of talk about influencers in the manosphere and perfect standards, and that is a, a problem that, um, clearly is being grappled with at the time we're recording this. Um, you know, we're recording this a couple of days after Keir Starmer's resignation, which was only a few days after the announcement of, uh, bringing in a law to ban social media, which may or may not have been a distraction bill. Who knows? Um, but, um, there is such a different feeling of what a community is and how to communicate. But when I go into the sixth form college I'm governor in, or when I speak to 19, 20-year-old students at the university I teach in, I find young people who struggle to make eye contact, um, some of them, but I find people who... strivers who are able to concentrate, who have dreams, who want to work hard, but they don't put that in the context of their local community or their country. They put that in the context of what they want to do to better themselves and influenced by their peers more than they're influenced by or overtly influenced or s- or would acknowledge they're influenced by an older generation. Um, and so finding ways to communicate with those people, um, what I do, um, with my students is I kind of force them to interact with me, um, with other, um, lecturers, and with each other. Um, because I think this shyness in the public sphere that social media has, um- generated has really handicapped young people who have so much to offer, but they can't, they find it very, very difficult to interact in some cases. Um, at the Sith Form College, um, couple of years ago, one of the staff had this brilliant idea, which sounds awful, but it's worked effectively, um, that they have a duty roster to meet the students arriving, and they greet 3,000 students every day individually. Just look them in the eye, say, "I hope you have a good day," and they, where they can, they shake them by the hand. And that routine you can see over time. F- for some it's cringey and horrible, and they hate it, but now it's become the norm, of course. And, um, and they don't probably acknowledge at the time, but because that's the norm when they're at college, when somebody tries to shake their hand for a job interview perhaps, or when they ha- or they go for an interview, or they're trying to, they're talking to someone about what they'd like to do, which we might call a networking meeting or an elevator pitch, yeah, in the jargon, they're able to make eye contact, and they don't realize they've been shaped in that vital way Absolutely vital. So I think it's about generating a, a, a different, a different way of interacting. If you sit in the background and listen to a young person on an app or on a game communicating with their peers, they've got a perfectly acceptable wide vocabulary. They love the community they're in. Um, and on the specific thing about love of country, um, I think there is something about, um, commercial, um, entities having more power and more influence than nation states, which I think is something we're going to increasingly grapple with. Um, but I don't think we're quite there yet. But individuals and, you know, we- we're in a security environment here, we're security professionals. Um, young people are hugely influenced by the outrages that happen on our streets, and they are motivated by them. And I find people coming to my global security course, and if you get to why they're interested, they are interested in what's happening in Ukraine. They may not get the full implications of it. They hate what happens in Manchester. They hate, um, the, the number of, um, blades that are, um, visible either within their friendship groups or pretty close to them. They hate county lines drugs and the pernicious impact it has. So they have this exposure to terrorism and crime in their sights, and probably because of social media, they're able to investigate it. And they will fight Against those things. They may not fight for a flag, but they'll fight for what they see as justice, and against crime, and against wrongs on the streets that they, that they call home. In the same way as a young person 100 years ago would. They just interpret it and receive it in a different way.

Yoyo 44:40

A- absolutely mind-blowing, Fiona, to hear you position that in that way, and I know that other people will feel the same listening too. Mind sovereignty of our young people is a topic that is important, isn't it? And you've touched a little bit on social media. I mean, I'm grown up with a lot of years of experience. I'm an ex-police officer. I've seen a lot of things that most people in our communities wouldn't see. Like you. You've seen worse, I'm sure. Um, but I, I get a bit fed up that violence is creeping in to my social media feed if I'm looking at it at a certain time of day. And the violence starts with animals being aggressive with each other or, you know I struggle to watch, I struggle to watch, David Attenborough at the best of times just I struggle to see our impact on nature. Um,, it's a mirror, it's a reflection, and I find it very uncomfortable. But nevertheless, the violence started to creep in with, you know, bad things happening to animals, for example, animals falling off buildings and things like that, and it's disturbing. And then it leads into other types of violence. You know, shopkeepers, and security officers, and things like that. And it's literally feeding me stuff I have absolutely no interest in watching. Absolutely zero. Zero, zero, zero. Never searched for it, never enjoyed watching it. And I think the sooner we have this social media ban for young people, the better. Because if I can find it disturbing with the amount of exposure I've had to death and violence, I really worry about the exposure of an adult world to, to young minds. But mind sovereignty stretches out even more, doesn't it, to the impact of misinformation and disinformation from external threat actors. Are our young people aware that their mind is a new battleground?

Fiona 46:33

I think they are. But I think that- The way in which that creeping set of violent images you describe lands is very different depending on the experiences you've had. I don't watch violent films because I've seen the result of violence.

Yoyo 47:01

Yeah.

Fiona 47:02

So it... And not because I think it's going to- Do anything bad to me. It's just not the way I want to spend my time, to be honest. I don't enjoy it. I think an awful lot of, former army personnel are probably pacifists, you know, 'cause you don't wanna go there. And I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true of police officers who have seen some horrific things, and experienced people behaving in ways that the first time you see it are probably hugely surprising as well as shocking. And then of course the second and third time you see similar behavior I would imagine it's less shocking and less surprising.

Yoyo 47:49

Desensitizing,

Fiona 47:50

yeah. So that sensitization, desensitization happens, and what worries me about the type of imagery and the videos is that it desensitizes, it can desensitize people to violence who don't understand the impact of violence. Because you're creeping up from a base level of nothing, and it's funny, and you don't obviously see the impact and the real suffering. Whereas if you have started at a level where you've seen it, obviously you can see where that's going. But I do think that there is a rebound, and it's interesting over the discussions and the reporting over this social media ban. You know, the worrying comments that a lot of media are leaping on that young people don't know what to do with themselves. Well, if you take my phone away or take my social media feed away, well, I'm gonna stare at the wall as a classic- Yeah. classic quote. Well, that rather underlines the point that we need to, doesn't it? If you just don't know what to do, if you haven't got this addictive device in your pocket, that absolutely proves the case. But I think that training people, which is what I think you've described, training people to not be shocked by violence is hugely dangerous. And, yeah, I'm all for finding ways to stop doing that, and it seems that many parents welcome it because they just don't know how to fight the normalization of this that is in society. And that surely is what in its best sense government is for. You know- We make far too many laws, in my view. But where we should make law is where society can't regulate itself, and the general feel is that something needs to change, and we can't do it organically. Well, then we need, then we do need a law. So, you know, it will be painful, I am sure. But the schools, the schools that have locked away, phones for the duration of the day do seem to report much better attention. Their students do learn to talk to each other. The boys are back to putting their jumpers on the field and playing football like they did a generation ago. So they're fitter as well, you know, physically as well as mentally. So, you know, maybe there's something really powerful there

Yoyo 50:30

Yeah, I like the way you say society can't regulate itself. I love that positioning because I've often looked at society in the way that Marx must have done. And it's a shame that we really haven't evolved into other types of, societal engagement and, you know, you look at COVID, you look at how communities were built and merged, and people were talking to each other in ways that they hadn't before. And, there was... I think it's an amazing period of time to study in terms of how c- the shift in communities happened and the shift in both positive and negative ways. I was very much involved in the positive shift, I have to say. But, you know, I was in the police, and this would've been around about 2006, and I'd started to learn about the role of Special Branch, which is now the Counter Terrorism Di- Division. And I was told very clearly, you know, that 10% of, you know, patrons in the United Kingdom wanted anarchy, and I was really stunned when I heard that. "Anarchy?" I said. And they said, "Yeah, an absolute dissolution of any type of law and order., The absolution of rules, government, you name it, everything." And I was thinking, "Well, it just doesn't make sense and so it kind of feeds into that how society can't regulate itself if 10%. And it's that 10% I think are the most disruptive. I can see the links to extremism and, you know, violence on the streets and pure rebellion in terms of anything, you know, of sensibility. But, we have to do our best, don't we, to try and, be good elders for younger people. Being sensible, being level-headed, being open, and I think listening, most importantly, to our young people. What do you think the future holds? Big broad question for you.

Fiona 52:23

I'm naturally optimistic. And in various tests, you know, these psychological tests one trips over from time to time, I always s- score off the scale for trust and, which apparently is very rare for, army officers. But I always see the good in people. I always believe that people ultimately want to do the right thing, and clearly sometimes I'm bitterly disappointed. But usually, people are striving to do something that is good And if they don't do something that's good or you perceive what they're doing as negative, it's often because someone else has interacted with them in a bad way or bribed them or influenced them or done them some harm that has knocked them off that course. But I believe that people want to do a good thing, that we as a species are... We're pack animals. We want to form communities, and we do. We form communities. We've just been talking about the nature of communities may be shifting around. They are undoubtedly more international than they were. They're undoubtedly more cross-cultural than they were. But they're still communities, and people still feel that belonging. You know, as we're speaking, the World Cup's going. There's a couple of good s- yeah, the Tartan Army is, m- you know, has just fused with Boston, I think, um, yeah, and been a hugely positive, um, influence. So I think that, you know, we have huge challenges with our climate undoubtedly changing, um, with young people being Finding new ways to operate that we don't understand. We've got an aging population that's gonna cause us, you know, problems with our pensions and taxation, and our economies are gonna be upside down, and that's gonna cause difficulties. There are lots of significant challenges coming, and I do think the current loss of confidence in politics in this country and, and in a lot of the Western world is a challenge as well. Um, but if you take a broad sweep of history, whenever we go too far one way, something happens to push us back. Now, I hope it's not gonna be a world war, I must admit. I don't want that sort of correction. Um, but when, again, I look at, you know, the 16 to 25-year-old generation, they are so sensible. Honestly. They're so boring. They're so sen- well, they're not boring in that they're, uh, fantastic to speak to, but they, they are sensible people. And, you know, I don't have a concern that there aren't good leaders that are gonna emerge, and good followers and good team players and great science and great ideas. I think, I think it's as rich a generation as any. And let's face it, it's got all these amazing tools. We've managed to speak for the best part of an hour without mentioning the forbidden two letters, and let's keep it that way. But that's an empowering tool if it's used, uh, if it's used in a, in the right way. And why shouldn't it be? Why shouldn't it be? So I'm optimistic, Yoyo. Let's, let's gently ease ourselves towards retirement and put our faith in these 20-year-olds that are going to build the world we're going to enjoy in, the last decades of our lives.

Yoyo 55:58

Fiona Galbraith, an enriching conversation, only here on the Security Circle Podcast. Thank you for everything that you're doing to prepare our young people for purposeful careers in intelligence, resilience, and global security. And thank you for joining us on the Security Circle Podcast.

Fiona 56:15

Been an absolute pleasure.