EP 193: How a Former Spy Turns Contacts into Relationships That Matter: with Julian Fisher Former British Intelligence Officer and Author of Think Like a Spy

EP 193: How a Former Spy Turns Contacts into Relationships That Matter with Julian Fisher

Former spy, acclaimed author and returning guest Julian Fisher is back on The Security Circle—and he has unfinished business.

Julian’s first appearance remains one of the five most-downloaded episodes in the history of the podcast. This time, he returns to take the ideas behind Think Like a Spy even further, revealing how we can transform casual contacts into trusted, strategic relationships capable of changing our future.

At the heart of the conversation is Julian’s OTTERS framework: Objective-setting, Targeting, Trust-building, Elicitation of motivations, Recruitment and Stewardship. Drawing upon HUMINT tradecraft, acting techniques and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, Julian explains why genuine relationship-building is fundamentally different from collecting business cards or adding names to a network.

Together, Yoyo and Julian explore social capital, trust, authenticity and the importance of understanding what motivates another person. They also examine Strategic Transcendence: the ability to step away from the emotional battlefield, resist an instinctive reaction and respond in a way that serves the outcome we truly want.

Through wonderfully relatable stories—from forgotten business cards to confrontational meetings—Julian demonstrates how pausing, observing and remembering our objective can preserve relationships, strengthen our influence and prevent a moment of emotion from damaging years of trust.

In an age of AI, total data and growing digital vulnerability, Julian offers a compelling reminder that the real secrets are still kept between people.

Because a contact may know your name—but a strategic relationship can change your future.

The Intelligence Maven: https://theintelligencemaven.com/

It contains details of Julians next Think Like a Spy Strategic Relations Workshop, which kicks off online on 29th September. 

LinkedIn page may be of interest to some listeners: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julian-fisher-67161920/

Substack page: Think Like a Spy by Julian Fisher | Substack

For anyone who might like to buy the book: Introduction - Julian Fisher

Security Circle ⭕️  is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

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Speaker 0:01

If you enjoy the security circle podcast, please like share and comment or even better. Leave us a fab review We can be found on all podcast platforms. Be sure to subscribe. The security circle every Thursday. We love Thursdays.

Speaker 2 0:36

Hi, I'm Yolanda And welcome to the Security Circle Podcast, produced in association with IFPO, the International Foundation for Protection Officers. This podcast is all about connection, bringing you closer to the greatest minds, boldest thinkers, trailblazers, and change makers across the security industry. Whether you are here to grow your network, spark new ideas, or simply feel more connected to the world of protection and risk, you are in the right place wherever you are listening from. Thank you for being a part of the Security Circle journey..

Yoyo 1:14

Julian, welcome back to the Security Circle Podcast. Your previous appearance, by the way, is currently the fifth most downloaded podcast in the history of the podcast, which is, what, at the time of recording, 190 episodes. Wow. Why do you think I know. Why do you think the idea of learning to think like a spy resonated so strongly with people?

Julian 1:38

Well, first of all, thanks for having me back, Yoyo. Fantastic to be here. Always a pleasure, and a privilege, if I may say so. And number five, how disappointing. Well, at least we've got something to aim for. Let's shoot for number one with this one I- But no, I'm joking of course, and that's absolutely fantastic news, and, uh, on, on such a well-respected podcast as well, aiming right for the, the audience that I, I really want to be engaging with, which is those security professionals, those people who think about the role of intelligence, the role of security, uh, vulnerability in this age of galloping AI and technical developments. Um, so what is it that makes thinking like a spy attractive? Well, I think it's something to do with a creeping, dawning realization that the age of AI isn't automatically good news, and in fact, my sense is that data makes us vulnerable, digital data makes us vulnerable. The age of total data is upon us, and so we become totally vulnerable, and in those circumstances, something else becomes very important, and that is analog interpersonal skills. The, at, at the espionage level, the state trade craft level, my genuine sense is that as AI becomes, and as technical, technological advancement becomes, um, ever more, uh, accelerating, that human intelligence is gonna become only ever more important because- Our enemies are quite good at exploiting technical vulnerability, aren't they? So in those circumstances, the real secrets are kept between people. So if you wanna know what's really going on, you need to be able to build trusting relationships

Yoyo 3:47

So since publishing Think Like a Spy, you've been working very hard on a new framework that's about building and sustaining strategic relations. What makes a relationship strategic rather than simply useful, transactional or friendly?

Julian 4:04

Yeah. So I've, I've developed, I suppose what I started with in Think Like a Spy, which was the concept of goals allies. Those people that we seek to take with us on a journey, they may be with us for part of that journey to help us to get to our next goal. I think the natural extension from that is the idea of strategic relationships, people who are going to be important to us throughout our professional or even our social personal lives. And a goals ally may be one of those. They may be a strategic relationship, but they may not be. They may be part of something, a, a, a, an approach that you're taking within a period of time to get to a particular place. What I'm talking about with strategic relationships is people who are going to be long-term, uh, allies, long-term champions. People who, uh, if you like, add to our social capital. And what I mean by social capital is, well, I, I look at it as being a function of three Rs. That's relationships, reputation and reach. So who knows you and trusts you? What effect does that have on your reputation? What do people think of you when your name comes up? And that's going to be a... That's going to some extent be a function of the relationships that you have, the strategic relationships you have. As is reach. How far beyond your immediate circle do your connections and your reputation reach? So building that social capital is a program in itself, uh, I would, I would suggest. Some people are lucky enough to be born into circumstances where they have a fabulous network of social capital around them. Many of us are not in that position, but as I always say, it's not what you know, it's not only what you know, it's who you know. And we do, we do have the ability to affect both of those things. We can educate ourselves, we can be educated, and we can more purposely and more intentionally set about building a, a network of strategic relationships. And the difference between somebody who's a contact is a con- and a strategic relationship is a contact knows your name, but a strategic relationship can change your future.

Yoyo 6:28

Ooh. That's a golden nugget.

Julian 6:31

Hmm.

Yoyo 6:32

What do intelligence offers un- sorry, what do intelligence officers understand then about human relationships that many civilian leaders constantly overlook?

Julian 6:43

Uh, uh, before we get to that, I'm going to, uh, s- slightly shift the emphasis actually, because my initial work in this area was very much based on that agent recruitment cycle. Um, and what I've done since then is bring in two other disciplines that you might be s- quite surprised to learn, I think are, are relevant to strategic relationships. Um, and it might be quite surprising for some people that I, that I bring these three things together, but we've got... What I'm talking about is the agent recruitment cycle, which I talk about in, in great depth in Think Like a Spy, available in all good bookshops. Uh, and acting techniques, that's the second strand, particularly the Stanislavski method, and we'll talk about why I think that's important, too. And then thirdly, and this is the one that really surprises people, is, uh, acceptance and commitment therapy, or some of the precepts of acceptance and commitment therapy. Now, I'm no therapist, I'm no psychologist, I'm no actor, but I have had a background in which I've been able to recognize the use of some of the principles that Stanislavski developed, and the use of some of the principles that underpin acceptance and commitment therapy in that agent recruitment cycle. And I think to answer your question, the thing d- directly, what is it that spies and, to a certain extent, actors and therapists recognize that perhaps others might miss, is that relationship building is not networking It's a totally different thing. And we all tend to set about networking in this quite haphazard, dare I say, chaotic way. And let me tell you a little story about that, because we all do it, and I'm guilty of it as well. I recently moved house, and of course, as we're moving house, we, we sort through things, boxes, uh, and bags, and s- files that perhaps we haven't looked at for a very long time. And I came across a box full of literally thousands of business cards that I've collected over the years. Thousands and thousands of them. I was, I was gobsmacked at just how many there were. So I played a little game with myself. I just reached in, I played a lucky dip, and I said to myself, "Okay, for, for this card that I pull out of this box completely by random chance, how long is it since I was last in touch with the person whose card it is?" And I, I did five, and four of them were, the answer was, "I haven't got the faintest idea because I don't know who this person is. I don't remember meeting them." And the lu- the final one happened to be an ex-girlfriend, but that's neither here nor there. So the interesting point that I came away with from that is, what a waste of effort. All of that frantic networking, and I never did anything with it. And I wish I'd developed when I was younger this framework of strategic relationship building that I now teach in my latest workshops

Yoyo 10:01

So, befo- I love that story, by the way, 'cause I think we've all got a box somewhere of business cards. Uh-

Julian 10:06

Yeah

Yoyo 10:06

and,

Julian 10:07

and- It's amazing how it resonates. And, and the other one is just have a look at how many contacts you've got in your, in your phone or on, on your emails, and then try to work out how many of them you actually use. You can look at the most used. Ah. And it's a remarkably small percentage.

Yoyo 10:21

Yeah, but I was, I was watching something on social media. Um, somebody very credible that I follow was talking about relationships- Mm and they were basically saying, 'cause I think this is relatable, they were basically saying, you know, look, you can't ever have a negative inference on just because certain people in your life who you've really liked have stepped away and moved on. Sure. She, they said there's a, there's three things between, uh, what makes a relationship work and what doesn't, and the first one, which was the resonating answer that I have never forgotten, is proximity. Oh, yes. So, for example, when you're in school with school kids, you know, you have that proximity of being in class together, being in sports c- clubs together, being in, you know, kids discos together. For me, it was roller skating. Yeah. And so that proximity, that's why you build good friendships. And when you go into the workplace, the proximity changes, and especially with, uh, not everybody working the same place all the time, like traditionally used to happen in the '90s- Mm-hmm for example, where, you know, you had your desk and you had your team that you sat with and, and everything like that. And I just realized how sensible that was. So there's a reason why there's a lot of business cards where I haven't stayed in touch with people, because without the proximity, without the reason to have a, even a transactional, uh, part- Yeah of our relationship, it's, it just made complete sense. So do you then have- Why would you? Right. So do you then realize that you have to build in something transactionally so that you have a reason to still keep connecting?

Julian 11:59

Uh, that's a good question. I have s- a, a little bit of difficulty with the concept of transactional relationships, but because I think that's a, that's a freighted concept. But a couple of points I'd make in res- in response to what you said. First of all, you, you're absolutely right about proximity. Now, I, I believe psychologists call it the mere exposure effect. So one of the things I talk about in the, the framework which I've developed, the OTTERS framework, is trust building, uh, which divides into storytelling or cover and, um, cultivation. And cultivation is about bu- essentially getting somebody to like you and, and one of the ways in which we set about getting people to like us is the mere exposure effect. The more time we spend with somebody, doesn't always work, sometimes it has the opposite effect, but essentially the more time we spend with somebody, the more likely they are to like us. So that's a really important aspect of relationship building and is particularly crucial in an age now since lockdowns when people are spending less and less time in the workplace. So that's one consideration. It's, it's absolutely, yeah, that, that exposure to people is, is, is vital. But equally we, we're exposed to a lot of people a lot of the time, and if you think about going to a conference, for instance, you might meet upwards of 50 people over the course of three or four days, if not into the hundreds, and you're busily collecting business cards. That's where I think all those business cards come from. They're not necessarily from people we've worked with. And in fact, when, uh, I've come across cards that are 20 years old, and they're people that I've worked with, and I'm still in touch with them. Now, a lot of what I'm talking about here is that networking, this, this idea we have of getting out and collecting business cards and collecting contacts for its own sake, and it feels like we're doing something. But the reality is we don't have the wherewithal, the resources, and the time to do everything with all of those business cards. And, and I, I'm sure your, you are and your listeners are f- familiar with Dunbar's number, which is this, the concept of how many relationships we can manage at any one time. And the inner circle, according to Dunbar, the psychologist, is, is only between five and 10 people. You might have an active network of somewhere between 25 and 50. You might have a strategic network of 50 to 150, and then your casual acquaintances of 500 plus. I think the most faces that we're capable of recognizing is meant to be about 1,500. I've got way more than 1,500 cards in my, in my collection over the past 30 years of career. I'm certainly not going to recognize all of them. But the problem is for me is that because I'm not going to recognize all of them, those people who could be strategic relations get lost in that morass. And I just wish I'd been better, and I urge everybody, and it's not never too late, I urge everybody to start thinking about, okay, why do I have this person's business card? Why am I in c- contact with them? What is our shared objective? Um, how can we collaborate? How can we build a strategic relationship? And that doesn't have to be transactional. Um, there are all sorts of motivations for people to want to support you in your life. Everything from, uh, a sense of obligation through to a sense of liking. But what I'm urging people to think about with the adoption of this OTTER's framework is intentionality To remove the randomness of those contacts that we have, because I bring you back to Dunbar's number. We can't manage more than a relatively small number of serious relationships, and I'm talking about relationships across the personal, the romantic, and the, um, the professional.

Yoyo 15:56

I loved listening to you say that because there was a part of me thinking that, you know, movie directors, you know, screenwriters, book authors for, say, you know, nonfiction, they... Uh, fiction, sorry. The... I usually, I always got those two confused. Uh- for fiction. Uh, they, they all have to have that meet cute magic element, something, you know, strategic that ultimately binds that connection that is in the center of the story. Even if you're looking at James Bond, for goodness sake- Yeah there's a shared connection and there's proximity, isn't there?

Julian 16:32

There really is, and you can s- you can spin into somebody's orbit, and you can have a shared connection, and then very quickly you can spin out of it as well. I'm not- Yeah I, I'm not... I'm under no illusions about this, and I've done e- enough work, television work, for instance, to know that you can i- in a, a very short space of time build an incredibly strong relationship with a producer, a director, somebody else who's a, a fellow screen presence perhaps, and then just as suddenly at the end of this shared endeavor, you, you're spinning off into your separate orbits.

Yoyo 17:05

Yeah.

Julian 17:06

And there's nothing wrong with that as well because that's, that comes down to that point about what is your ally for the short term? What are you trying to achieve together? What's this alliance all about? And that can be short-term.

Yoyo 17:16

Yeah.

Julian 17:17

But, and that, there's a difference there from what I'm talking about with strategic relationships, which is, which is that group of people that, uh, will pick up the phone to you now and in five years or even in 10 years, and they will champion you, and they will help to d- tell a story about you which enhances your reputation and enhances your reach beyond your immediate circle. So I am not by any means, um, t- meaning to diminish the importance of short-term relationships, but they're not the same as strategic relationships.

Yoyo 17:51

Before we unpack OTTERS, which is your- Sure framework, can you give us a real-world situation whi- in which applying the complete framework would materially change the the outcome that will help people to understand the relativity?

Julian 18:07

Yeah. I think sales is the obvious one and, um, it's an easy go-to, isn't it? Because I think quite often salespeople do adopt that technique of, of, um- Making it a numbers game. If I knock on enough doors, the, metaphorically speaking, I'm going to find somebody who wants to buy the thing that I'm selling. And actually, there's a better way of setting about it than that now, isn't there? Especially if you're talking about selling something which isn't just a, a B2C disposable- Good or service. If you're selling something in the modern economy which might be drones, for instance, or it might be a particular IT solution, or it may be, oh, I don't know, a workshop to help people build strategic relationships, then d- better than, uh, a random advertising campaign or a random social media campaign is to spend some time targeting those people that are likely to want or need or benefit from your offering. And that time feels like c- I absolutely get it, that time feels like dead time, it feels like wasted time early on, especially if you've just set up a new business, and I've, you know, as I've set up a number of businesses, I understand that feeling. I need to be out there banging the drum, selling what I'm selling, meeting as many people as I possibly can. And you come away, yes, you've got that h- that handful of business cards and you feel like, "I'm making progress," but you're not, it's illusory. And actually, if you spend time on the targeting process and building trusting relationships with people who are not necessarily even the immediate consumers of what it is you're trying to sell, but are very important within the network, within that social network of people who might be your target, customer base, that is very, very valuable time. It doesn't feel like it in the instant, but in time the yield can be magnificent.

Yoyo 20:23

It's, it is hard to walk into a room, a conference, say, or a networking event, and desperately really need to try and channel your time into speaking to the right people. I've had a lot of people approach me, and I have, I am not interested in what they're selling.

Julian 20:38

No.

Yoyo 20:39

And I, I am not a customer, I'm not a future customer, I am not, you know. But I do remember the name of the company that, uh, a lady belonged to when we were in the toilet one day having a really nice chat applying some lipstick in the mirror together. Yes. And I think that's a, I don't- Done it

Julian 20:59

myself many times.

Yoyo 21:00

Right. Right. I don't re- I don't remember any of the other companies that have approached me in networking, but I remember this woman and we had this lovely chat, applying some lipstick, having both used the, the toilet, you know, and just having a nice little chat. And I just think you're, you're absolutely on the nose there with that, and I think many people will be able to relate to- Those more relative meaningful conversations. Now, that doesn't mean to say that I'm still a customer of said business, but I- No recognize their brand. I recognize when they sponsor events. I recognize when I see them at expos. They got onto my radar because of a very simple non-intrusive nice conversation- Yeah that was authentic.

Julian 21:45

And there's the key word, isn't, isn't it? Authentic. Authentic and trusting, uh, are really at the heart of building meaningful, impactful strategic relationships. And I'm really fascinated by what you just said about the people you've met at conferences, that you don't remember any of them. Now, I'm sure that- No that, I'm sure that's something of a, an exaggeration, but probably not too much of an exaggeration. Because why should you remember any one of those 30 people that you might meet on a coffee break and who seems to be intent on selling you something? They're pressing their business card into your hand. They're looking over your shoulder to see who the next potential mark is. Uh, I... They're not showing me any respect. Why should I show them any respect? I know.

Yoyo 22:29

How

Julian 22:29

is that different in any way really from a, a cold call or a cold email? And I don't have much time for either of those either.

Yoyo 22:36

No. And do you know, I come away thinking, "God, you know, he stood too close to me and all I could smell was- Yeah bad breath." And I just think- Ah you know, there's just not a nice experience. As all the girls listening to the podcast will be like, "I know. I know. There's so much." You know, like, dude, seriously, go and clean your teeth. So-

Julian 22:53

Yeah so- I, I, or, or the beer breath, like you've got somebody-

Yoyo 22:57

Ooh

Julian 22:58

walking over you- I don't, yeah at the end of a long day. And, um- And the

Yoyo 23:01

oof, yeah. It's-

Julian 23:02

I mean, there's a, there's a, there's another point there, y- y- y- you know, that I think is worth making, which is g- I've always struck, I'm still struck in these days of, um, p- p- relative progressiveness just how serious the, the sex imbalance is in a, in a, a conference room.

Yoyo 23:20

Mm.

Julian 23:21

I mean, I, it, it, it's so striking still that you can walk into a, a room full of professionals and it's, it's 75% men, uh, often higher. Now- The positive bit of me thinks, I wonder whether that's because women ultimately recognize how much of a waste of time this is, and they're actually being cleverer about the relationships they build. Or now that you've told me that little vignette, maybe it's just that they're avoiding the smell of somebody's bad breath or beer

Yoyo 23:52

or- Nah, I don't know. I don't think any guy who's trying to pitch to you his company, his sales pitch, I don't think they're deliberately trying to put you off by having the stinkiest breath ever. Right? Uh, do you know, it's, it's, it's completely, uh... Maybe amongst men they don't notice that stuff, but I think women- Mm women do notice proximity in a conversation, you know? Yes. Especially physical proximity, so maybe that's something men could be more mindful of. Uh, and, and I, I even, I even found myself in this... I've just, I talked about this with other women, but I found myself, like, stepping back a little bit, and then they step forward, then you step back a little, step forward, and it's like, "Ugh." Oh, God,

Julian 24:31

yeah.

Yoyo 24:31

You know? And don't get me wrong- Mm-hmm we're all deeply polite individuals. We don't wanna turn around and say, "Hey, listen, I've gotta crack on." But, um, th- it's, i- it's always been a very difficult subject to sort of say to somebody, "Look, I love what you're talking about, but it isn't for me, so please use this time to keep working the room and find-" Huh "somebody who i- is for you." Do you know what I mean? Um-

Julian 24:51

Absolutely. I mean, that, that's... I wish we'd all be a bit more open- Full-

Yoyo 24:55

fright

Julian 24:55

with one another like that. But I, I'm- Yeah I'm interested in your observations about body language as well, the, the invasion of personal space, which is- Yeah do- does seem to be pervasive, and I think, dare I say, uh, has got worse since the lockdown years. I think we, we probably all need to work a little bit more on our social skills again to b- to burnish them, um, following those years of isolation. Um, but th- there is another point there, and I don't want to labor the, the, the, the, the, the difference between men and women if there is one, but I do get the sense that women are more sensitive to body language.

Yoyo 25:30

Yeah.

Julian 25:31

Uh, and i- in a way, my sense is that women are probably better at forming strategic relationships than, than men are because there are reasons, societal, structural- Yes and cultural reasons- Yeah why they need to be quite careful about who it is that they invite into their circle-

Yoyo 25:45

Yeah

Julian 25:46

if you, if you follow me.

Yoyo 25:47

I'd like to add as well that since COVID, I've really felt very reluctant to shake men's hands, even- Oh,

Julian 25:54

dear. I'm sorry to hear that. Are we that- No are we that bad?

Yoyo 25:57

No, it's like I just don't wanna touch men's hands. I just think- Ah it's, it, it's happened, and I don't really wanna touch women's hands. Don't get me wrong. When I play netball, we don't... You know, a- afterwards we all form a line, and we shake each other's hands. We do fist bumps instead because ev- everyone's hands are sweaty from playing netball. Yes. And there's a real genuine reason for that. Plus, I have somebody in my team who's quite neurodiverse and just doesn't enjoy the experience. And then I realized, "Well, I don't enjoy it either." Mm. And I think there's this kind of natural it's the way we've always done it, but I think... I always say to people, I deliberately keep my hands down to my side. I deli- um, and I'm, I give facial expressions that are welcoming and approachable, but I keep my hands sometimes behind my back so that they know that they're... hopefully they're reading a signal, but you still get that extended hand. And then I, I kind of just say, "Do you mind if we don't..." And then I just use- Yeah that. Since COVID, I've just always kind of not done that. Do you know what I mean? And people are like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, no worries," you know. And I think a lot... And many women are grateful for COVID, because they don't have to shake men's hands anymore, and we've never really enjoyed it, to be honest with you. I

Julian 27:05

think a- That's very, that's very interesting. Yeah. I mean, there's always that, I think, rather charming, um, Islamic cultural tradition, if it's... maybe tradition's the wrong word, but often if, if I meet a Mus- a Muslim woman, she'll put her hand on her chest and give a small bow, which is- Yeah a very, very polite way of-

Yoyo 27:22

Yeah. Yeah

Julian 27:23

but very clear- Yeah.

Yoyo 27:24

Yeah

Julian 27:24

but, um, uh, message to me that-

Yoyo 27:28

Yes

Julian 27:28

physical contact is not welcome. And I think... And that it's, it, it's incumbent on all of us to begin to be better at reading those-

Yoyo 27:36

Yes

Julian 27:37

uh, signals as well. And part of what I teach i- is what I call strategic transcendence, and strategic transcendence is, is about being able to lift yourself emotionally out of the situation in which you find yourself in so that you

Yoyo 27:53

don't- Tell us more ha- Tell us more about that.

Julian 27:55

Ah, okay. Um-

Yoyo 27:57

Give me an

Julian 27:58

example, Julian. Okay. Well, I'll give you a, a- an example that happened to me just the other day. Um, I discovered parked on the private driveway just outside where I live a car which was blocking the entrance to our car park, and, um, the driver- After about five... I was wanting to get my car out of the car park and getting increasingly fractious, and then the driver eventually turned up from whatever he'd been doing, and I said, "Oh, just to let you know, um, this is a private driveway. Uh, I'd be grateful if you didn't park here in the future." And he instantly turned very aggressive.

Yoyo 28:40

What did he say? "It was only for five minutes."

Julian 28:42

Uh, it was, "I, are you, are you leaving now?" And I said, "Well, I, I, I would be if a, if your car wasn't in the way." Yeah. And he's like, "Well, how was I to know that?" Mm. And I'm like, "Well, you weren't. It's a private driveway, which is fairly obvious." And then I... But he continued in this vein, and obviously my reaction, my physic- my, sorry, my emotional reaction was to get angry as well, and because I'd been thinking a lot about strategic transcendence recently, I managed not to do that. I managed to... What I did was I did what I call the, the pod approach, which is to pause, to observe, to describe, and then decide. And my... I reminded myself that we all have a right to pause. We don't have to react. If somebody's in your face being aggressive, you don't have to react. You can take a step back. You can do something physical, and this is where the Stanislavski techniques come in. You can do something physical. You can... I- in that particular instance, I wanted to, to assert myself. So rather than... I didn't feel particularly assertive. This was a very big man who was being very aggressive towards me, but there are assertive actions you can take. So rather than step away from him, rather than ducking my eyes, I looked him in the eye and I stepped forward. I didn't feel it. I wasn't acting as a res- as a response to my emotional feelings, which were, if anything, either to get very angry or to run away. The, the fight, flight, or freeze response. But I know enough about Stanislavski to know that if you take the action, that has a positive iterative effect on your emotional response. So I stepped towards him, I held his gaze, I paused, and then I observed. I said to myself, "Okay, what's going on here? What is, what is causing me anger?" And the answer was, "I just don't like people disrespecting me." Is that a good enough reason to respond with anger? The answer is no. So I described an alternative, and this, the, the trick here is almost to put yourself in the observer role. You say, "If I was somebody else looking at this situation right now, what would I say is happening?" And I would've said, "There is somebody being unreasonable, but he's about to leave anyway, and there is no point in escalating this." And then I gave myself permission to decide, what do I do? And I said, "Well, thank you for your time. I'd be appr- I'd be really appreciative if you didn't park here again in future." And then I turned away, and I left it. And that's what I mean by strategic transcendence. My, my rage was, was boiling over-

Yoyo 31:31

Yeah

Julian 31:32

because this person, my, my emotional response was, "This person is disrespecting me, and that's not allowed, and I'm going to get angry," mixed with a little bit of, "He's also a lot bigger than I am." So let's hope this doesn't descend into a physical brawl.

Yoyo 31:48

Sounds like you made a very rational decision, Julian. Can I share an ex- But- Can I share something?

Julian 31:53

It's just what I mean. That's- Yeah it, it, it's, you, it is about rationality, but it's also about, but the problem is it's not always easy to inject that rationality in the moment when emotion is very, very high, and that's where you have to train yourself to do it, and that's what transcend, uh, transcendence is about. You train yourself to do it, as an actor trains themselves.

Yoyo 32:11

So, um, I had two recent experiences, very short. I went into Asda to return an item, so I didn't go in to shop. God, I don't shop in Asda. Right.

Julian 32:21

Who

Yoyo 32:21

does? But, but, but they've got a very good queue for returning packages for Amazon. And, uh, as I was walking out, in a straight line, I hasten to add, a person just literally cut right across me in my path diagonally, causing me to stop in my-

Julian 32:38

Right

Yoyo 32:39

v- very slow minding-my-own-business track. And I just looked up, and I went, "Hey, be careful." Yeah? Fair enough. And the person they were with was a woman who literally then started to shout at me to say how I had therefore walked in front of their path. And they, I said, "Hey, listen. I'm just walking in a straight line out the exit. Why would you say..." It was the- Right I couldn't understand that there was, it wasn't logical. And then she continued to shout at me, and I just went, "Woman!" So there was no swearing, there was no get out my effing face. There's no escalation. I just went, "Woman! Hear yourself." Right? Nice. And carried on walking. And it was kinda like, check yourself. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I would never kind of like lower, you know, Obama, beautiful Michelle Obama said, you know, "When they go low, we go high." And so I don't need to swear or berate a woman for being completely ridiculous. Uh, but I just went, "Woman!" And I just, and I just literally just carried on walking.

Julian 33:42

Yeah.

Yoyo 33:42

But w- it was further compounded by the second outing I had. And I don't go out much, and now you can see why, because otherwise everything is- turning into conflict. I was- There is

Julian 33:53

a lot of it

Yoyo 33:53

I was going to the dentist in a community neighborhood that I don't go to very often, but my dentist happens to be there. So I'm on extra vigilance when I'm in this neighborhood. And I, I, I literally, uh, was in a one-way system. It's a residential neighborhood, and the car in front of me stopped and a woman got out. She's running into the takeaway to go and get a takeaway, and I, I didn't even honk my horn. I did what you did- Fair and thought, "Is it really worth attracting attention?" She's, uh, but I did kind of put my hands up. It was kinda like Italian, mamma mia. I said, "Seriously," I said, "why have you left your car like this?" As she's, I've got the windows down. "Why have you left your car?" And she was like, "Go the other way." And I went, "Well, this, this girl, this girl- is so dumb. She hasn't figured out it's a one-way system, and she's literally just stopped her car in the middle of the road- In the middle of the road got out to go get a takeaway." Millennials. And, and so I had this group of guys to my right all watching what was going on, thinking, "Oh, this could get spicy. We could have two Karens going at each other in a minute." Yeah. And then I had another group of guys all hanging out, as they do, outside the, the, the takeaway. This is like, this is like 3:00 in the afternoon.

Julian 35:06

Amazing.

Yoyo 35:06

And I just looked at these guys and I went, shrugged my shoulders, and I went, "Women drivers, what can you say?" And they all- Very good just burst about laughing 'cause I thought, "What's the point in making a scene?" She looked stupid. She looked stupid in the eyes of everybody. I didn't need to make her look more stupid. But I did come away thinking the incredulousness of it was just ridiculous.

Julian 35:29

Yeah. I, I, I understand exactly what you mean, and there, there's so much conflict-

Yoyo 35:35

Yeah

Julian 35:35

now at large that it, you, I think we have to, we all have to think about, um, how we respond to that. And, and it, it is about- transcending the emotional. But let's ch- let, let me give you an example of where I used it in a business context. Yeah. Um, this is when I was... I closed down my, uh, risk management business last year, but obviously when I was running it, I would often go and, and make pitches and proposals. And there was one particular case where I came up against somebody who was overcompensating for something, and having to be particularly aggressive to the person pitching. And it, it wasn't that I was... It wasn't a cold pitch, it was a, a, a relationship I'd had with the client for some time, but it was somebody who'd come in, they were quite new to the role, and they decided that the best way that they could make their mark was to be essentially extremely rude to me as the person pitching. But all dressed up as in, you know, what are all those passive-aggressive questions. What are, you know, what marks out your offering from, uh, the, the ones that I can get- Mm from 20 other providers today? You know, why am I- Mm. What is it that I... Why am I giving my time up for you? So-

Yoyo 36:52

I pity the fool who doesn't know who you are, Julian.

Julian 36:57

Well, like anybody, um, I could feel my emotional response. My, you know, my, my heart rate went up, my palms got a bit sweaty. Um, I won't say I panicked, but it's uncomfortable, isn't it? If you- Yeah you work for many years building an offering, and some, and somebody is... It feels like a personal attack.

Yoyo 37:21

Well, you saw my facial- So- expression when you said it, right? I was like, "Oof." First thing you wanna do is walk away- Yeah and go, "All right, I ain't bothered." Absolutely.

Julian 37:27

Well, it... Well, absolutely, it's, it's, it's ex- it's exactly that. It's the auto- autonomic nervous system at work, the ANS. Fees, freeze, fight or flight. And that's perfectly reasonable system that we have in place as animals, because it's served us well over the years, and in certain cases, um, it s- continues to serve us well. If you're in immediate physical danger, it's not a bad idea to get the hell out of there, okay? So flight works sometimes, freeze works sometimes. But in a business context, it's not a very helpful reaction, is it? So the fact that I'm, my ANS is reacting in this circumstance, and is, is in- inclining me towards either snapping at him or being equally rude back or getting up and walking out.

Yoyo 38:24

Were you tempted to say, "All right, princess"?

Julian 38:27

Well, something like that. And it... And of course, you know, that would rapidly bring the, the, the whole relationship to an end, and then, and, and put it in jeopardy. What, what bothered me, it's not my relationship with this individual, but the relationship I have with the organization as a whole, and I didn't want to put that in jeopardy. So I took that approach. Pause. You don't have to respond immediately, and actually just introducing maybe a five-second pause for thought in response to somebody's rapid fire aggressive questioning in itself is quite a useful thing to do anyway, because it draws the sting from... It, it takes away a little bit of their advantage straightaway. So pause, observe I believe people's behavior is the best intelligence we can get about what's going on in their minds. In, in fact, r- realistically, it's the only intelligence we can get. So I observed, what is this person doing? They are trying to belittle somebody who is at their disadvantage, as we all are in the sales and procurement relationship. I can draw a conclusion from that. This person is quite insecure. Otherwise, why would they need to assert their dominance over somebody who, whose position is automatically supplicant anyway? So how do I respond to an insecure person? I make them... So that's the observe. I des- the description is I'm dealing with an insecure person who has demonstrated an insecurity in an aggressive way. Now I can decide what to do. And what I decided to do was say, "Well, look, this obviously isn't working. My laying out, um, perhaps a little bit, um, with a, with a little bit of supposition, my laying out solutions to what I think are the problems that your company has, um, yeah, I can understand why you might find that, um, a little bit irritating. So can I just ask you to lay out what it is that you think needs to be done to deal with the problem that we were discussing?"

Yoyo 40:45

Yeah. You're getting his USP.

Julian 40:48

And then that's it. And it- it's not a particularly un- unusual technique anyway. We all know the best sales technique is to, is to find out what the pain point is-

Yoyo 40:58

Yeah

Julian 40:59

and to listen. But of course, we also get into, um, routines. Now, I was quite used to that by that point. I'd been running a business for nearly 15 years, and I was quite used to sitting down and going through, this is what I think makes my business different from everybody else. This is what I think makes my solution better than anybody else's. And, and he was picking holes in it. And you know what? I, it- when you, when you stop to think about it-

Yoyo 41:27

Can learn a lot

Julian 41:29

you learn a lot. And when you stop to ask, you learn a lot. And by the end of it, you know, I'm not, I don't think we closed the sale as it happened, but I certainly didn't jeopardize the relationship. And after the, at the end of it, I could see he had visibly relaxed. Because so let's be honest, he was wanting to showboat.

Yoyo 41:48

Yep.

Julian 41:49

So rather than say, "Okay, I'm going to keep putting up straw men for you to knock down," I was going- I invited him to create his own straw man. Not that I was gonna knock it down, but I was, it was an opportunity for me to then sit back, recompose myself, take a few deep breaths, listen to what he had to say.

Yoyo 42:10

You're sitting on a goldmine there, because whilst he might come back at you word for word or c- or, you know, in terms of the debate you're having around- what you have to offer and what he believes he's already getting, there may not be a delta there for you to exploit to say, "Look, this is where we can come in and this is where we can support." But where you do have the advantage is in building the relationship with him, building the trust. Exactly. And I've always believed after, I'm gonna refer to his book actually. Chuck's somebody who appears on the podcast quite a lot. He wrote this book called Yes Sir.

Julian 42:42

Oh, yes.

Yoyo 42:43

Um, his book is The Security Influencer's Guide to Success Using Strategy, Intelligence, and Relationships. And in the relationship segment, which is a third of the book, he talks about the fact that, you know, that relationship you're building may not necessarily, you know, be fruitful financially for the here and now, but like, that person could move companies, go and work- somewhere else and say, "Do you know what?"

Julian 43:05

Absolutely.

Yoyo 43:05

I need a fresh approach to this. I'm gonna reach out to this guy." And I just think, I think that's where you were going with this, isn't it?

Julian 43:12

Absolutely right. It's actually about maintaining a strategic relationship that more than it is about winning in the moment.

Yoyo 43:19

Yeah.

Julian 43:19

We're also busy thinking about winning in the moment, that we forget that actually People pop up in the most unexpected ways

Yoyo 43:28

Mm-hmm

Julian 43:29

The quantum effect of marketing, we're all familiar with. You know, you, you can talk to somebody, in almost randomly in certain circumstances who will then, if you have made an impression on them, will perhaps come to you in 10 years' time. And I've had that. I'm sure you've had it. What won't serve you is storming out and by the way, I've done this. I have stormed out. I can be quite, emotionally charged at times.

Yoyo 43:56

Really, Julian? I've

Julian 43:57

grown up. Uh, I- I've done a lot of work on myself over the years and, I'd like to think I come across as quite Zen. Um

Yoyo 44:07

Re- I sometimes come across like, do they not know who I used to think I was? For goodness'

Julian 44:11

sake. Exactly. I remember one case very vividly where, it was p- it was actually potentially I was talking to this person as a publicist who might- who was potentially going to work with me on something, and he- his style was just so incredibly aggressive and rude that I literally just said... I stood up and I said, "I don't have effing time for this." Packed my bag, walked out, and in the moment it felt absolutely marvelous because this person was just sat there, mouth agape. Everybody else, 'cause there was a whole bunch of people in the meeting, and everybody else was just sort of s- looking at their feet or twiddling their thumbs, trying to do anything but look at him. And in the moment it felt great. But then about five minutes later, as I calmed down over a gin and tonic in the nearest pub, I thought that did not serve me well at all Because I, I came out of that as the victim ult- ultimately. And yes, it feels good at the time to assert yourself and assert boundaries, but there's a way of asserting boundaries which stop short of, uh, victimhood.

Yoyo 45:21

Uh, it's never a good place to be, to be honest with you. Um, but look, on your OTTER framework under T for transcendence, um-

Julian 45:29

Well, no, so actually, actually that comes under what I call stewardship.

Yoyo 45:33

Stewardship.

Julian 45:33

Sorry. Right at the end. So we've, we've, we've almost started at the end, but the- but it does bring us back to the beginning- Right because there's one thing which, uh, I- again, I've learned from Stanislavski, uh, which is about objectives. So part of the strategic transcendence approach is Stanislavski says, "At all times," and he meant this for actors, but I believe it applies to everybody, "At all times, ask yourself, 'What do you want?'" And if you can get into the habit of asking yourself that in every s- every context, tactical and strategic, personal and social and professional, it serves you very, very well. So if you can stop and say, okay, in... So take the first instance where I didn't lose my temper. I managed the relat- to maintain the relationship with a company that I'd built over many years. I was able to do that because I, the, the, w- in the moment of pause, I reminded myself of my objective. What do I want? I want to maintain a relationship with this company. It's not worth me destroying that based on the fact that I've, at the moment, feel an emotional reaction of anger towards this person.

Yoyo 46:42

Yeah.

Julian 46:44

So that's the transcendence. It's much more important what I wanted longer term than how I was physically feeling at that time, or how I was emotionally feeling at that time. And that brings us right back to objectives, which is the, the O in OTTERS. So I'll just very quickly take you through what OTTER stands for, O, objective setting, T, targeting, T, trust building Now that splits into two, which is cover and storytelling and cultivation. Then the E is elicitation of motivations, the R is recruitment or the sell, and then the S is stewardship or strategic transcendence. 'Cause making the recruitment, bringing somebody over onto your side isn't the end of it. You're then going to have to deal with another human being with all of their foibles and all of their unpredictabilities, and sometimes it will be out of your control. And strategic transcendence is about how to reassert control in situations over which you have no direct control, and that's really where the, um, element of acceptance and commitment therapy comes into it as well. So it all knits together.

Yoyo 47:56

It does.

Julian 47:57

Um, but it starts from objectives.

Yoyo 48:00

It knits together beautifully. I wanted to sort of give you a use case, really, you know. Um- Sure a colleague publicly criticizes your competence in a meeting. I think a lot of people are gonna relate to this. You know, your instinct is to defend yourself immediately. We've been in meetings where we've seen people- Hmm act very defensively. That doesn't mean to say we can be a part of changing the way they respond, but we can definitely change the way we respond. Yes. How would strategic transcendence change what happens next?

Julian 48:30

W- well, strategic transcendence, let's, let's, let's relate it to that whole acceptance and commitment therapy concept. The acceptance bit is not saying, "Okay, I'm gonna roll over and play dead because this person's being aggressive towards me or is cr- is criticizing me unfairly." That's not what acceptance is. Acceptance is, "This is the reality. This is my emotional reaction." And then you can exercise psychological flexibility in your in how you respond. So your emotional reaction- is not something you can control. You know, the heart rate going up, the sweaty palms, that feeling of your innards turning to icy liquid.

Yoyo 49:05

What about the verbal that's going on in the brain? The, the how very dare you. Ah. Do you know what I mean? That's hard to handle as well. Absolutely. Yeah.

Julian 49:12

Well,, that's a really important part of a- acceptance and commitment therapy because Compared to other forms of therapy, what ACT, and it's quite,, it's quite apt that the... It's generally referred to as ACT because I also talk about acting techniques, but what, what ACT teaches you is to recognize you can't change, you can't control the words that your brain is creating. We sort of think we can, but we can't. There are two parts of the brain, aren't there? There's the observing brain, and then there's the generative bit, and that generative bit, which we can think of as being like a, a screen within ourselves, might be the bit that's telling you, "You're useless," or, "This person's right, and I'm under attack, and I must respond."

Yoyo 49:54

Yeah, or, "I've been exposed, and now they've seen who I am." I've

Julian 49:56

been exposed. I've been found out. Yep.

Yoyo 49:58

Mm-hmm. So

Julian 49:58

whatever it is, whatever that negative narrative is-

Yoyo 50:02

Yeah

Julian 50:03

acceptance is about recognizing there's no point in fighting that narrative, but there's also no reason to believe that narrative to be correct. So there is a concept of defusing what your brain is telling you, that generative bit of your brain is telling you from reality. So yes, under attack, you might be thinking you're somebody in a workplace is attacking you, undermining your work. Your brain might be saying, "This is awful. I'm under attack. I must respond. I've gotta be seen to defend myself." But there's no need for you to fuse what your brain is telling you. You accept that it's telling you that. What you don't do is accept that it's true. Then that's the moment where you can describe to yourself... And it's an interesting point, isn't it? If you then take the role of an independent observer, most of us as independent observers, seeing one person in a meeting room being attacked by another would instinctively support the person who's under attack. And that's the really important thing to remember there. The sympathies of the people around that, the person who is attacking you or undermining your work or criticizing you unfairly, are not going to be with that person. They're going to be with you as the person who's being unfairly targeted, if it is unfair. Yeah. And of course, there are differences when it... you may have done something that, that merits, uh, an attack. But quite often, we all know in commercial circumstances in the workplace, it is unmerited. And so if you have the sufficient presence of mind, and again, I go back to this is something you have to rehearse because in the moment, your ANS is gonna take over, you're going to want to react, but you've got to rehearse response rather than reaction. And the way you do that is actually you can role play it or you can imagine it, you can imagine it. You can say, uh, you can take Stanislavski's the magic if. So if I was a really relaxed, wholly self-confident person on the receiving end of that attack, how would I respond? So you can take yourself through it. How would I respond? What is the type of person I want to be? I want to be assertive. Do I want to be confident? Do I want to be zen? Do I want to be laid back? Do I want to be compassionate? How would that person, if I was that person, what is the best way that they would react in these circumstances? And you can think through. There's a limit really to the number of different circumstances in which we might find ourselves, and you can work your way through them. Under attack, how would the person I want to be, the ideal version of me, respond ideally? And I'm not here to give you a specific answer to every scenario you can come up with because actually that's going to be a very individual thing. For me, f- I can tell you what I would do, and I'm sure you, you have your own response as well. So what I would do in a situation like that is I would say to somebody, "I hear what you're saying. I understand the, uh, constructive criticism that you're making about my approach to this. Can I ask you now how you would do it differently?" And that's, that's it. That's all you need to do. Can I ask you how you would do it differently? Or you might have a variation on that. I might have a variation on that. Can I ask you what I, what you think I should be doing differently?

Yoyo 53:48

Mm.

Julian 53:49

So it's-

Yoyo 53:49

Like, have I misunderstood our objective?

Julian 53:53

Absolutely.

Yoyo 53:54

Have I, have I gone off scope? You know, uh, um, uh, um, are we having a different- Could you

Julian 54:00

tell me-

Yoyo 54:00

Yeah, are we having a different conversation?

Julian 54:02

Can I ask you to help me? Where am I going wrong? Yeah. I would really appreciate your advice on how I can make this better.

Yoyo 54:09

And it's really important to get the tone on r- to, to, to get the tone right on that because- Yeah said wrong, it can come across passive-aggressive. "Well, you show me how you would do it then." Do you know what I mean? It's really h- h- hard... It's really important to get the tone right.

Julian 54:21

Uh, it is, and that's gonna be an individual thing. Um, I mean, I, I don't mind a bit of passive-aggression, actually, in those circumstances. For me, that works. You know, but I, but I, I would always preface it with, "Uh, I hear what you're saying, so my understanding is that you have, uh, two or three objections, and they are these," and I would summarize them. Um, "I'm not currently sure how, uh, I should respond to those objections, so perhaps you could give me some pointers." And actually, if there is just the tiniest little bit of passive-aggression in there, um, that's okay actually, because probably s- 50% of the people around the table with you are gonna be quietly, internally applauding you for that passive-aggression. Mm. And also, there is a little bit about setting boundaries. You know, you just because it's a workplace doesn't mean to say that you have to accept bad behavior. And, and that's another thing. People can... You can take this a different way as well. You can say, "I am not prepared to accept your behavior as it currently is." You know, I don't think that... For certain people, the response may well be, "I don't think that this is a, a constructive way to approach this," and/or, or, "I don't think this is the right forum. Perhaps we can meet separately to discuss this one-to-one." But do you see what I mean? The answer's gonna be different for every s- every different person, but what the answer isn't, is allowing your emotions to overwhelm you. And what strategic transcendence requires you to do two things. One is, I keep coming back to it, understand your objective. Your objective in the moment can be a very micro objective. But it also requires you to say I am not going to react. I'm going to respond. And to separate those two things out is really, really important. What is my body, what is my mind telling me? How is, how is my mind telling me to react? And now how does my... That's my limbic system at work. Now how does my frontal cortex... What would my frontal cortex, if it was sat opposite my limbic system, say right now? Think of it that way round. But also just remember time. You do not have to react. You can buy time. "Let me think about that for a moment," or, "Can I pause you there while I just process what you've said?"

Yoyo 56:47

I think this technique-

Julian 56:48

And I didn't, I didn't... You see, I was doing it, and, and you, everybody... The, if you, if you try to introduce pauses-

Yoyo 56:56

Mm.

Julian 56:57

People speak it's really powerful because people don't like it. And if you s- but if you just said to somebody in a, and of course the s- the situation's different, we're very collaborative and we're, we're working towards the same goal. But if you said to somebody, "Please allow me just a moment to process what you've said." And then you take a pen, because there's the, the method of physical action as well, which is an important part of what Stanislavski teaches. Do something physically to show, right, this is what I do when I'm thinking something through. I make notes. You don't actually have to. That's one technique I use. And then you can just leave that pause. You can just leave the silence And that does something very powerful. It gives a moment for everybody to have to think a little bit about the way that they've been behaving. And you know what? I won't say nine times out of 10, but often the response of the aggressor is to say, "Okay, perhaps I've been a little bit unfair there. Maybe we need to think about it this way." Do you see what I mean? It's, it's just giving everybody that moment, including yourself, to step away from the emotional precipice and to become governed by rationality rather than emotion. But unless you know what you want, it's very difficult to do that. So you've gotta be... Remember Stanislavski, ask yourself at all times, "What do I want?" When you go into a meeting, you should probably have a fair idea what you want out of that meeting. It may be to get a message across, it may be to answer certain questions, it may be to find out what somebody else thinks. If you keep coming back to that, then you're less likely to be unbalanced or thrown off track by somebody else's bad behavior, I think.

Yoyo 58:44

Love it. Julian, honestly, there were so many more questions I could have asked you, so-

Julian 58:51

I know. I feel sad that we don't have more time. I've, I'm brimming with stories to tell as well. I've been teaching all this in workshops, and, you know, the more I, the more I teach it, the more I remember stories that are pertinent, the more, quotes I find that are relevant. And the more cohesive the thinking becomes. You know, because I'm learning as well. I'm not saying I have all the answers, but what I am, what I do believe is I've had time to think about something which is challenging for all of us from a number of different angles, and I'm bringing those all together in, in what I think is quite a powerful package.

Yoyo 59:25

Well, for those of you that want to find out more about this wonderfully strong framework, Julian's details will be available for you to click on. But the magic will come from, I guess, just listening to hearing you talking about it. and thank you for using stories and recognizable situations to help this content be really super relatable so you cannot influence another person effectively until you understand your objective, their motivation, and your own emotional state.

Julian 59:55

What a brilliant summation. I'm like, let's see. You've learned it all. You don't need to do the workshop.

Yoyo 1:00:00

Julian Fisher, I was gonna say thank you so much for joining us- Thank you again on the Security Circle podcast.

Julian 1:00:06

thanks for having me back, always a pleasure,