The Security Circle
An IFPOD production for IFPO the very first security podcast called Security Circle. IFPO is the International Foundation for Protection Officers, and is an international security membership body that supports front line security professionals with learning and development, mental Health and wellbeing initiatives.
The Security Circle
EP 194: Beyond Wellbeing — The Workplace’s Role in Suicide Prevention with Christine Clark Award Winning Trainer, Mental Health & Suicide First Aid BS30480
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EP 194: Beyond Wellbeing — The Workplace’s Role in Suicide Prevention
Suicide prevention is not only a personal or public-health issue—it is also a workplace responsibility.
In this profoundly important episode of The Security Circle, Yoyo is joined by Christine Clark to explore the vital role that employers, leaders and colleagues can play in recognising when someone may be struggling. Christine explains why changes in behaviour, performance or communication should never be dismissed—and why asking someone directly about suicide does not introduce the thought but can give them permission to speak.
“Someone can appear completely functional—going to work, leading teams and meeting deadlines—while still experiencing suicidal thoughts.”
Together, Yoyo and Christine confront the fear and discomfort that often prevent organisations from discussing suicide. They explore prevention, intervention, support following a death by suicide, and the practical guidance now available to help workplaces respond with greater confidence and compassion.
This is a candid but deeply human conversation about noticing what may be hidden, having the courage to ask the difficult question and creating workplaces where nobody has to struggle in silence.
From the host:
I want to let you know that this episode contains frank and sustained discussion about suicide, suicidal thoughts, and the impact of losing someone to suicide. Although this is an important discussion about prevention and the role that workplaces can play, some listeners may find the content distressing. Please take care of yourself and feel free to pause, skip this episode, or listen another time. If anything discussed resonates with you personally, please do not face it alone. In the UK and Ireland alone, you can contact Samaritans free at any time 116 123, or if you or somebody else is in immediate danger, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E department. If you are listening outside the UK, please contact your local crisis service or emergency number. Listener discretion is advised. Have a good day, folks
https://www.linkedin.com/in/christine-clark-31721518/
Security Circle ⭕️ is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers
Hello. Before we begin, I want to let you know that this episode contains frank and sustained discussion about suicide, suicidal thoughts, and the impact of losing someone to suicide. Although this is an important discussion about prevention and the role that workplaces can play, some listeners may find the content distressing. Please take care of yourself and feel free to pause, skip this episode, or listen another time. If anything discussed resonates with you personally, please do not face it alone. In the UK and Ireland alone, you can contact Samaritans free at any time on one one six one two three, or if you or somebody else is in immediate danger, call nine nine nine or go to your nearest A&E department. If you are listening outside the UK, please contact your local crisis service or emergency number. Listener discretion is advised. Have a good day, folks
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Speaker 2Hi, I'm Yolanda And welcome to the Security Circle Podcast, produced in association with IFPO, the International Foundation for Protection Officers. This podcast is all about connection, bringing you closer to the greatest minds, boldest thinkers, trailblazers, and change makers across the security industry. Whether you are here to grow your network, spark new ideas, or simply feel more connected to the world of protection and risk, you are in the right place wherever you are listening from. Thank you for being a part of the Security Circle journey..
YoyoChristine Clark, welcome to the Security Circle podcast. How you doing?
ChristineI'm doing brilliant, thank you very much.
YoyoYou are a bit of a newcomer to the sphere of the security community. Tell us what brings you here.
ChristineWell, what brings me here is I've been trying over the last few months to tell as many people as I can about some innovation that's come into my world, and that really links with,, security and the security sector. In fact, it links with everybody. But if I can get it out there to people, I'm sure that some people will find it useful to what they're doing.
YoyoWe had a really interesting chat, didn't we, the other day. What's the most important thing in your narrative right now that you want to try and get across to people?
ChristineHow important the workplace is for suicide prevention.
YoyoMm-hmm.
ChristineThat's been my passion for 20 years. We've always overlooked the power of the workplace, and I think a lot of things have come together, but I think this is the moment when the workplace can realize that power, and it needs to, because currently our figures for suicide have never been worse, they're higher than they've been for a decade, and I think the workplace really needs to play its part.
YoyoOkay, so that sets the scene for today. But Christine, when we talk about suicide prevention, how big is the problem we're actually dealing with among working age people? Because I'm seeing statistics that this isn't just about, a specific gender or a specific age. This is broader, isn't it?
ChristineMy darling, suicide doesn't care. It will have anybody. But throughout the world, most people who die by suicide are of a working age. Course, we have some very young people, which is extremely sad. We're seeing a growing demographic with older people who've grasped those extra years of their life, and it should be brilliant, but it's not. But actually, it's working age people, and that's globally. And of that figure, we've got a really high percentage of males who take their own life. We're trying with that, but we're not really seeing many inroads into that currently.
YoyoYou've said that, within some of the organizations you work with, you're seeing the equivalent of around one suicide a week. I was very shocked and h- impacted when I heard that number. What does that tell you about the scale of the problem?
ChristineWell, you know, there's a suicide every 90 minutes- And of course some of those are gonna be linked to workplaces. But I think we don't know those figures because A, sometimes we don't choose to hear them. And the businesses, and these are many varied businesses, it isn't something that they wanna shout about, you know? But to think that these things aren't being dealt with on a weekly basis is frighteningly naive, and I know some of your listeners will know it is stuff that they're dealing with, either with their client base or people they're supporting, or with their own staff.
YoyoI can only talk from personal experience. When you hear somebody within your community even has taken their own life, it- it's still, like, really frowned upon to talk about. You know? It's almost kind of like, like if they'd committed a murder, they'd be talked about more. And I don't think just because of the way they ended their life should, should reflect on the fact that we, we can't talk, you know? Because what that highlights is almost the ineptitude for everybody around that person to completely understand what's going on in their life. Now, I reject the idea that someone says, "I had no idea he was gonna do this," or, "I had no idea she was gonna do this. I had no idea she was thinking this," because that tells me there's a huge disconnect in relationships, and I know that's a big generalization, but you, you tend to know when someone's struggling. You tend to know when someone's depressed. You tend to know, if you're close enough to that person, there's just something not right. So this question really is around the witness of the person. What advice can we offer, especially to colleagues in the workplace? And I get that this is a long-winded question, but we've all sat round people and, and been with people who've, who are going through tough times. We're not blind to that. But sometimes there's an inability to help. Sometimes there's a, we don't understand how we can help, 'cause it's quite different, isn't it, when it's a coworker or when it's a family member.
ChristineYeah. Well, first of all, we need to get re- you know, World Suicide Prevention Day for the last three years, the theme has been, "Let's change the narrative," okay? And people have seen that as being, you know, governments and countries. Well, I'm saying let's change our own narrative, because see that narrative that says there was nothing to see, that needs to go, and it particularly needs to go in the workplace, because we are, we absorb so much of our people around us, but we need to realize our power sometimes and connect some of those things that we're seeing with that person struggling or having thoughts of suicide, okay? Sometimes there isn't anything for family to see, because in these days of, you know, long working hours, we spend very little time with our family. We're sh- like ships that pass in the night. That person puts up a mask when they're at home, because there's a lot of shame and guilt around suicide. But actually, when we know our colleagues, and we do, and that isn't what they've told us. That is simple things, how they finish an email, how they spoke to a client, you know, how they look Their demeanor. And I say to people, "Trust your gut." And often we know that something is off with them, but we don't consider the possibility that that person could be having thoughts of suicide. We need to, and that's what the training that I deliver, and not just me, intervention training is all about spotting those things, and that we are occupationally focused, so we are best placed to s- to see when somebody's starting to drop the ball. We know that, that task, we know that trade, we know what to do and what, what, what to, uh, don't. And when we start to feel that something is wrong, we are really often the best place to see that. And the next thing is, as you've said, to have a really frank conversation about that. Not, not putting the onus on that, "Oh, you need to tell somebody." Yeah, that's good advice. Tell somebody if you're having those thoughts. Always find somebody to tell. But actually, could we meet them halfway? Could we say- What we've noticed, in a caring way, and be able to ask them directly about those thoughts. And we know that when people do that, that's permission to talk about them. But we are stifled by a lot of stigma and misinformation that makes that conversation really difficult. That's what we're trying to get rid of.
YoyoHow do you deal with the enterprise think, you know, the big company think, where,, they're even quite scared to have these healthy conversations because they don't want to impact people negatively? I'm gonna revert to an example. So I wanted to deliver some, some cybersecurity awareness around doxing. Doxing is where you make somebody's,, details available online for other threat actors to, to play with and to terrorize you with. And, you know, I really wanted to raise awareness because it happens in relationships that are breaking down. Spouses can dox each other publicly, you know, put photographs of each other online but this particular organization, they were just, they were like, "No, we, we, you know, we really don't wanna have that kind of conversation. We don't wanna upset people." And, and yet, you know, suicide prevention is, is a far, far darker, serious subject, and yet I should imagine some employers are very risk-adverse to even engaging in these types of healthy conversations. How do you overcome that?
ChristineWell, it, it's a jou- it's a journey, isn't it? It's like most enlightenment and getting rid of fears. We can't drag people into this. We have to do it step by step. And I get that. If that hasn't been part of your narrative with people, to use that terminology, you know, it can seem pretty frightening. But we've got the best practice guidance from the world now that tells us the best way to talk about these things and to move our organization forward step by step, okay? Whether it's in our language, whether it's in our policy writing. So I've got companies who, you know, we've got a death in service policy, and I say, "Well, really it would be beneficial to start with a suicide prevention." "Ooh, we don't wanna mention that. We're death in service. We get what that is." But actually it's not really the same as suicide. So it's in a million conversations. Some of it is in training, some of it is at the brac- background information. But I find that, sadly, a lot of companies fast-forward when they've had a suicide.
YoyoYeah.
ChristineWhen suicide has come within their midst, and it bears those illusions, like it does with families and friends groups. This is other people. This is other businesses this happens to. Yeah. It doesn't happen to us. But sadly, it can happen to anybody. So it's, it's drip by drip really, like a lot of things.
YoyoBut I think that uncomfortableness extends also to family members who are elderly. You know, I remember once having a conversation with an elderly relative, and I just said, "Look, you know, you're a solo. Um, you know, what are your wishes? You know, are your wishes to be cremated? Are your wishes to be buried? What are your wishes?" And he just literally went blank and said, I don't care. I'm gonna be dead." And I went, "No." I said, "This is about everybody else you're leaving behind. How, how do you want that to roll out? You know, is there anything I can do to, um, to, to help everyone remember you in the way you would wanna be remembered?" And he's like, "I genuinely don't care. I'm gonna be dead. I'm gonna be dead, I'm not gonna care." And so i- for that generation, I think in particular, it's quite difficult just to have that very basic conversation, which is a healthy conversation to have. I would want my friends to know what my wishes were. Number one, clearly, no solemn, you know, meeting with people crying. Okay, cry a little bit. You know- Mm I'll be upset if you didn't. But I want it to be about tell your stories, tell your jokes, tell your funny things, and make people laugh and cry, not cry. This is a celebration of life, not, you know, a, an absol- like, completely immersing yourself in the death experience. And, and so I think it is important to have those conversations nice and healthily. I'd have, I'd have one of those, you know, um, you know, Louisiana marching brass bands if I could. You know, celebrate it up. Um, why not? But if that's a difficult conversation to have, then surely it explains why, you know, suicide is also a very difficult conversation to have.
ChristineYeah. We've got a very, very warped, disjointed relationship with death. you know, all death, uh, you know, we have to sort of accept that. But suicide is death with the volume turned up, you know? It's a much, uh, people who've lost people to suicide say we have to get over the death, then get over the suicide. There's so much stigma. There's so, you know, recriminations, hindsight. And, and this is why- A lot of work is being done now with what we call postvention, people affected by suicide, because it's not the same as a common guard or death, which are already difficult to deal with. So in any comprehensive work that we do with companies, we look at prevention, and when I look at that with companies, they say, "Oh, we don't really do any prevention." You do. You're creating a credible workplace where people are here, you know, and we can tick lots of things off. What are you doing around intervention, which is having people, managers, the workforce, HR, who are ready, willing, and able to contemplate that this is what's happening in front of me in the workplace? We need to have in our sights that the news I'm delivering today, or the disciplinary, or the co- or anything could lead to that person having thoughts of suicide, just as you've done with this podcast. Could something, if it's happening, trigger somebody and put guardrails in place? And then we have to consider- If we did have a suicide, which we don't want, with a client, with a, with a, you know, a trades person who's working for us today, a contractor with one of our own team, what are we gonna do hour one, day one? Because if we don't do it right, then we can cause contagion within that organization and we see often one, two, three, four, five suicides in the workforce and everyone's like, "Wow, what's ha-", or in the, in the college or in the, the work sector or in the university. And we can contain that if we get our response right or we can ramp it up. And it is difficult because until the coroner has said what's gone on, even if it's obvious to people who've attended the scene what's gone on, it's not a suicide. So there's a protracted narrative that goes on, and we've seen that in the press this week, where in that vacuum a lot of misinformation and, quite frankly, old cliches get dragged in, often blaming the media and other people for causing what's gone on, when actually we don't actually know yet what has gone on till the coroner forensically looks at what's gone on in the lead up to that suicide, you know?
YoyoWe had an incident just at the weekend, you know, in Milton Keynes. helicopter was up. I think many of us were alerted to the helicopter being up because, you know, the weather and the, the risk of wildfire. It was a forest. And I think Thames Valley Police were very good. They put out an announcement, explained that somebody had been found and, you know, they, they've called it an unexplained death, and I think that's what you're referring to. Yeah. Only the coroner can, you know, determine actual cause of death. And I've worked on this, you know, myself as an ex-police detective. It's, uh, certainly a part of the job that I did that, you know, you have an awful lot of internal thought processes, especially when you have to go to the home and you start to experience and put together jigsaw pieces of that person's life. if we take a moment individually to think about the lowest moments of our lives- It goes nowhere near to imagining what it's like to walk in the shoes of somebody who has suicidal ideation on a regular basis. So I think certainly within the security community, I can certainly speak to, an individual that some of us all check in with on a regular basis. We know they've struggled. We know that, you know, sometimes things get tough to handle, and we will even check in with each other to say, "Have you checked in with, you know..." We- we'll call this person Bob. Uh, "Have we, have we checked in with Bob lately?" "Yeah, yeah, yeah," you know, or, "Can you check in with Bob? I, I think Bob's going through a bit of a tough time." So we'll go and check in with Bob, "How's it going?" So it might seem odd to Bob that sometimes he gets everyone checking with him at the same time, 'cause we're all rallying around, knowing he's going through a tough time, and sharing that. That's a nice community to belong to. Other than that, what other things can people collectively do to feel like they're doing something useful?
ChristineI see those fabulous, what we call them, informal caregivers. So to keep someone here, if I was doing a suicide intervention, I would wanna surround that person with formal links to care and informal, okay? And when I see groups of caring coworkers, caring friends, who have got that insight and that care for others, that's absolutely invaluable, and, and that's obviously saved countless lives. And, and you realize and you potentially... I think years ago, when I first came into this, we gave away our power to formal caregivers. We felt like it was only valuable if someone was in front of a psychiatrist or the mental health team. And yeah, their input is absolutely crucial, but what we know is that their input is an hour, their input is, you know, for a short period of time. What keeps people here, in the rollercoaster events that happen with people's psychological wellbeing, is people people around that person. And the, you know, when I'm working with companies, they would often say to me, "Chris, are we doing all we can for colleague?" And I wouldn't know. I, I quite frankly wouldn't know. But this, since November, we've had new guidance on what companies can do in the form of a new British standard, which means that, yes, those lovely things that happen by accident or because of caring individuals are great, but actually I can give a company a standard now that they can work through, excuse me, of like a roadmap and say, "Well, are you doing all this? Is the company doing this? Is this how they're handling things both in prevention, intervention, and postvention?" And really, this year, well, it came in in November last year, we've got the best opportunity for organizations if they want to. And I haven't met with one company who I, who I've explained this to who's said, "Chris, it's not for
Yoyous." Mm.
ChristineEverybody gets the value of that. And if we've got that two-pronged approach, the company doing all they can and the individuals in that workplace being gemmed up to do what they can, then we stand a good chance for the first time, I would say, ever, to bring down those statistics and to really harness the power of the workplace.
YoyoWhy is this important to you, Christine?
ChristineWell, you know, I, I, I get really frustrated 'cause I've been around this for a very long time. We had companies saying 20 years ago, in our interactions with the public, this suicide thing is coming up more than ever, so I started doing training with companies around how to deal with it, you know, call center, housing providers. And as we've moved forward, it's sort of come into lots of other sectors. So I might do a keynote speech for security companies, this is 10, 15 years ago, and they will say, you know, "I'm mobbed by people saying, 'Chris, this is 80% of our work now.'" Uh, you know, we need training in it, we need whatever, and we've had that progression forward. But what we were missing was a joined-up approach. And I, I believe through looking at this for many years, that the British standards, we know the British standards have already been around since the 1800s. They have done a, a group of, um, you know, support, free support standards around taboo subjects in the workplace, and one of those taboo subjects is suicide. And, and so the standard is free. I'm helping companies to work through that standard, and what's been the most refreshing thing is a lot of them going, "Oh, you know, a standard. We're gonna get audited." You're not. It's for you to look at what you're doing, which is really valuable. But actually, when we've explained each bit of the s- the, the, you know, the, the document to them, they've realized that they're actually doing quite a lot now You know? And they're actually, they're doing a lot more than they thought, and adopting the standard becomes quite an easy thing to do. So they adopt, the standard is 30480. It's free. It's not being audited by anyone, but it is a really good forensic roadmap look at what you're doing now, and build an understanding within the organization. And, and training's involved in that, of course it is, but actually a lot of things that are needed and that are helpful for suicide prevention, you're already doing, so that's good.
YoyoThere will be people who will already There will be people who are listening who will all be all Da, da, da, da, da, da. There will, there will be people listening who will be uncomfortable with this conversation. Right. Some will think we've become too sensitive, and that mental health has become too woke, you know? And it's a, it's unfortunate that the word woke is used de- degeneratively and not in a positive encouraging way. What would you say to them?
ChristineWell, I'd spoke to you about I don't really understand the term woke. You know, I hear it getting bandied around, okay? What we, w- what most people realize is that we're losing seven and a half thousand people to suicide every year, okay, and that that's an absolute disgrace, and that out of that 75% of that figure are men, and that that is something that we've been far too compliant with and accepting of forever, you know? We're, I'm working with sectors in security where there's a high proportion of male employees, where the actual role itself is intense. There's vicarious trauma involved. There's people who are going to the suicides of other people. The hours, the this, you know, the intensity of those roles really put people in the firing line sometimes to be having those thoughts, and we cannot just ignore that. So if that makes me woke, then bring it on. And I, I, I've got four sons, I told you. I don't like those statistics, and I would like to believe that we're clever people, in the main we're caring people, and we need to address those things within our organization. So the standard that there is is about your own employees, but it's how your employees link with the people you're supporting too, and that if we made that the focus of what we're doing, then we stand a good chance of not just some people care and some people not, you know? We know there's a lot of dialogue around suicide now, but unfortunately there's been very little change. There's been very little action- You know?
YoyoI think awareness has become better. I think having the, uh, suicide prevention day, I certainly am aware within the security industry of more consortiums, more groups- Yeah getting together, more active engagement. Is there any legitimate criticism buried underneath the resistance around, you know, why are we always talking about mental health now? I think mental health is a huge contributory factor, and I would say, uh, and I'm not a expert, but I would say that undiagnosed, uh, unspecified mental health challenges can be a big contributory factor to a, a person's, you know, suffering. What language works better with people who den- who don't identify with the language of wellbeing and self-care and, you know, psychological safety? What language can we use?
ChristineWell, when I'm training, I often get people sitting in an ivory tower, you know? They'll say things like, "Chris, I've had really tough times, but I'd never think about suicide."
YoyoGood for you,
Christineyeah.
YoyoMm.
ChristineAnd that, that blows me to bi- And, you know, I challenge them on that. So you're telling me you'd never get a depressive illness, life would never throw a multiple group of challenges at you? You know, none of us know that. So straight away we need to understand that we're all vulnerable. When I teach this course, and there's a c- a version of the course that I teach which is about young people, f- parents seem to be like, "Well, you know, my children know they're loved." So did these children who died, but a group of circumstances came together for that child, and sometimes outside influences- Yeah or their own personality. So this is how it is, right? Suicide is complex. It's incredibly complex, and some of it is the child that's born, how they interpret the world, sometimes how caring they are, how affected they are by others. And then as they travel through their world, none of us are immune to things impacting us. We know that, and we do all this on training, around between 9 and 24 we are going through huge physical and psychological and brain changes, and we've all witnessed and have been through adolescence. We know that adolescents have another risk factor, which is impulsivity. Nature has made them impulsive, to act up, act out, make a mess, learn. But unfortunately, that impulsivity, if there's a number of blips around that time, make them very vulnerable to not just thinking about suicide, but actually going forward with that. So we know that they've also got no concept of being dead, zero. T- they're telling you about their death as if they're gonna be here, and I often have to say to young people, "Hang on, you're dead here." And it's like, "Whoa, hang on a minute." And if I think back to when I was a teenager, we're very gung ho. That's what we're supposed to be like, and we don't think about that might be me. Who will be dead. And that we're very prevalent then for anxiety, depression, and not because anything's happened to us, but because those brain changes can bring on some things that we might grow through, but also, you know, psychological ill health that'll be with us maybe for the rest of our lives. Okay? And these are all factors, and it's incredibly complex. But what I see in media is everyone jumps on what's been happening right now with that person. And some of those things are important, but it's a lot of other things, too.
YoyoOne of the great fears, uh, in my research is that people have Sorry, one of the great fears that people have in my research is what if I ask somebody whether they're suicidal and then put the idea into their head? Um, is there any truth in that? And then let's pivot also to give you an opportunity to address with someone if they are worried about a colleague, what could they say?
ChristineWell, we have a lot of guidance on this globally and a lot of research now. Okay? Suicidal thoughts are incredibly common, but it's quite difficult to start a conversation and say, "Look, I'm thinking about suicide." You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of shame and guilt there. So we know that by far the best way is to say to somebody, you know, and we practice, we practice this question because it's a, it's always a difficult one to pull out the bag. You know, "Are you thinking about suicide?" And really, we're not talking about the big taboo. We're talking about thinking about it, and that we know that thinking about it is incredibly common. I think we believe that we're gonna give somebody the, the idea. Quite frankly, that has got no weight whatsoever. Life is precious. We have a strong life force. And if I'm not, I'm gonna go, "No," you know? And we've got that question out the way. But if I am, then you've just given me permission to talk about it. And I've asked countless people, and I've never had outrage off anybody because I have good reason for asking them, and I will tell them why I'm asking in a nice, caring way. Okay? And sometimes it's a no, or they'll tell me about another time when they did think about it, but they're not now. That's a good barometer. But generally, the, the conversation I get back is, "I'm not really thinking about anything else."
YoyoYeah. And, and, you know, I don't, I don't want to kind of, I don't wanna kind of, what's the word? Somebody comp- can appear completely functional going to work, leading teams, making jokes, meeting, meeting deadlines even, but still be experiencing suicid- suicidal thoughts, can't they?
Christine100%. 100%. And sometimes we, work creates a myth, doesn't it? 'Cause we use it as a barometer. Well, they're still coming to work. They still look okay. Managers who tell me, "Well, they're our best employee. They're hardly ever off." No, because they're frightened to be on their own, that's why. Their work is all-consuming, and it's keeping those thoughts at bay, and their biggest risk time is weekend or holiday that we've made them take, or times when they're on their own. It's a terrible feeling to be a danger to yourself. And I just want people to think about that. You're not, we're the perpetrator. You are the perpetrator, and you have got thoughts, or you've got a specific plan about wanting to die, and that plan not, might not be there all the time. Feelings to die and live oscillate, so sometimes you are okay, but other times, boom, your mood goes right down, and you're good to go. And that is the absolute danger of suicide, that we can think somebody's okay using a set of And this is why we can't stand it when a ce- "No, they're, they're a celebrity. They're, they're, they, you know, they're, they're rich, they've got..." It doesn't matter. Suicide doesn't care, and we need to get away from that, you know?
YoyoUm, we've had some incredibly public, uh, cases in the UK with beloved, you know, personalities and, you know, what's always preceded that announcement has always been, you know, that they've been terrorized on social media, literally terrorized to the point where they probably felt that there is absolutely no recovery back to a normality that they can exist in safely. Mm. Uh, and I think we don't have to go very far to, to know about those cases that I'm talking about. But afterwards, it frustrates me, you know, how everyone is saying, "Oh, you know, they were such a lovely person. They were kind. They were, you know, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were," and I'm like, crikey, you know, this, this could have all been so preventable. But look, uh, and I can't have this conversation without acknowledging the very high-profile, um, deaths that we've, we've all witnessed, um, you know, through online, um, terror, basically. The British Standard 30480, you e- you mentioned it earlier. I'd like to hone in on this a little bit. This is a game-changer. Why?
ChristineWell, it's game changer because it sets out really clearly everything. It's for workplaces, let's get that straight. It's suicide in the workplace, and I've been working with many company, and a lot of them being security-based, who absolutely wanna get this right and have done work over the years. But it sets out from prevention. Well, it says intervention first, prevention, and what we call postvention, but they didn't like that word because they wanna use words that everyone knows. So it's people affected by suicide. So we've had some high-profile security companies say they're gonna adopt and be some of the first to adopt, and I absolutely commend them for that. And there is a British standard link where you can go and say, "As a company, we've looked at this, and we are gonna work towards adopting the principles within the standard." What a fantastic thing to do, you know? What a fantastic... And, and I think I'm really proud of the security sector because they've been quick to come out and do that, and that's brilliant to see. And then basically, like any standard, you use different specialisms within your company, normally led from the top to say, "We're going for this," to look at what you're doing. Some of the standards won't be relevant, and I want people to be loud and proud and say, "That's not relevant to us." This standard goes from right from freelance. I'm freelance. I've applied it to me. This isn't just about big companies. And I think that if you are bringing in freelance people to do things, as a company, you would be best placed also to ask, "Do you understand about the document?" Because sometimes I see some pretty poor practice where things are being spoken about, and there's no thought for how those things land within wellbeing and health and whatever. And then it goes right the way through to blue-chip, huge company, okay? And it is just about, like any standard, going through, is this relevant? You know, okay, we haven't got a suicide policy, but can we write one? It's pretty easy. I've got templates for people. You know, it's not difficult to make that death by suicide more prominent and galvanize our approach in those three areas. And once you've done that and, and it's there for review, then I would say the question I always get asked, I get asked it when I'm working with people, and sadly, I get asked it when companies are having to attend a coroner's court for somebody who's died within their midst, "Chris, are we doing everything we can around suicide?" Or now that the spotlight is on us with employee that's died by suicide and we're seeing a lot more of coroners talking about the workplace and saying the, you know, "What's gone on within the workplace?" Um- When we go to that court, will we be there in confidence saying, "We feel like as an employer we did everything we could do"? And they are fantastic things to be able to say, you know
YoyoAnd that's a nice segue because my next natural question is, you know, what responsibility does a leader have for noticing when someone is struggling? Is it- Yeah negligent? Is it culpably negligent if a leader is aware but does nothing?
ChristineWell, if you look on, uh, LinkedIn and various channels at the moment around health and safety, people are saying that many people are dying at work now, that suicide should be a ridorable action. It should be brought into that, and I would agree with that, right? We've sort of had suicide on a side burner and workplace deaths on another, and if w- if we lump those together, that would take that figure for people dying within the workplace, because those actions sometimes do precipitate, so stand by to look at that one. But leaders have a responsibility, I believe, particularly with this document being free and being accessible to everybody, to say, "Okay, put it out to the various departments. Are we doing this? This is a good idea." Uh, there's nothing negative about this, and the f- no longer can we say we didn't really know what we should be doing, 'cause the document sets out what you should be doing. It's not mandatory, you know? It's a regulatory framework, but isn't a framework great for us to check if we're doing all we can? I don't get it when people say, "It's not law, so we're not doing it." That's a terrible attitude. Terrible attitude.
YoyoYeah, it is. But I can also see how having a framework gives everybody the right basis to say, "Great. Okay, we can follow that. That's a standardization." Yeah. You know? Yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll do that. It
Christinejust- The d- the document, I've got it here, is a bit hefty. But there is a quick start guide, and I encourage, and I'm trying to bring this into the security sector, helping each other. This isn't something that it's, "Oh, we've got it and you haven't." This is, "Okay, let's have a little look at how you constructed a, a suicide prevention policy. What do you do around this?" And I'm trying to set this up in lots of sectors. I've just done it with a, a lot of health and safety professionals in housing. Let's not keep reinventing the wheel. Let's just march forward with this and help each other, because we're doing similar stuff. How have you got round this? How, what are you doing towards this? And that that means that people get across that line, and there's an, an amount of confidence that comes, and a reassuredness in saying, we're not gonna be complacent about this, but actually, by a standard set by BSI Well, not BSI. T- lots of people who are actual experts in the field of suicide have said this document is credible. And I wanted to hate it when I first read it, but actually, I could tell by the language and the way it's been put together, people who know what they're talking about have put this together with an aim that- Workplaces take up that mantle of how important they are, but that they've got clear guidance of how to do that. There's nothing negative about this at all, and we normally have cost mentioned. Other than different teams in your organization being tasked with looking at it, and I normally split it up for those teams, and it's split up in the document, and people feed back. What, what is there to be negative? You know, every suicide costs society a million and a half pound. And look those figures up. It's a, it's- Why? Well, because that's cost to coroner, cost to police, cost to- Right them. So people say, "Oh, but might be a bit expensive doing some training, Chris." I go, "Look at the impact." And that we know that organizations' whole credibility can be damaged by how they've supported somebody or not supported somebody, and we see ideas about this all the time, and currently in the press, how they've supported or not supported somebody who's gone on to take their own life.
YoyoLastly, Christine, if there is something you, if you could wave a magic wand today, what would you do?
ChristineUm, I'd want workplaces to understand how incredibly powerful they are in setting the scene for this. I would want colleagues to understand that suicide is only powerful if we give it power. And my little mantra is, suicide flourishes in ignorance and silence, and I have pinched that off somebody. And it's been my life's work, and can be any company's work, to say, we are not gonna be silent, and we will not be ignorant, and we need to go on a path to learn more and understand the specific issues to do with our sector, because every sector has got its flashpoints. Yeah? We don't need to be geniuses to work out what those flashpoints are within lots of sectors of security. It's a lot closer to t- to you than a lot of other sectors. And then put things in place accordingly- Or recognize what we've already got in place, and then bring those other things to the fore. Okay? And the document, British Standard 30 48 0, which is free, which anyone can download, which is being downloaded globally now by tons of countries 'cause nobody else has got this, they all want it too. And that will give you the framework so that you can work towards doing everything you can. And in the end, that's all any of us can do, everything we can.
YoyoA difficult subject beautifully put- Thank you Christine. Take the opportunity, listener, to check in with someone today. Um, it might mean more than you think. Christine Clark, thank you so much for joining us on the Security Circle podcast.
ChristineThank you.