EP 195: The Gentle Art of Leadership, Why Gentle Leaders Create the Greatest Impact with Brian Donovan Executive Coach

EP 195: The Gentle Art of Leadership, Why Gentle Leaders Create the Greatest Impact

What if the strongest leaders are not the loudest people in the room?

In this episode of The Security Circle, Yoyo welcomes globally recognised executive coach and two-time author Brian Donovan for a thoughtful conversation about leadership, influence and the human qualities that enable people to perform at their best.

Brian is the author of Leadership Is Changing the Game and The Gentle Art of Leadership, two books that challenge outdated leadership models and offer a more human-centred approach to achieving results.

Together, Brian and Yoyo explore the difficult transition from tactical expert to strategic leader—particularly within security, cyber and technology, where technical ability can lead to promotion without preparing someone to inspire, influence or develop others.

They discuss why gentle leadership should never be confused with weakness, how empathy and accountability can coexist, and why treating people with dignity consistently produces stronger results. Brian also explains how leaders can identify and reinvent their natural strengths, establish healthier boundaries, delegate effectively and move beyond the belief that they must carry every burden themselves.

The conversation also examines toxic workplace cultures, the importance of recognising when an environment can no longer be changed, and the personal agency required to take control of your future. Brian asks listeners to consider one deceptively powerful question: What do you want to be known for?

From integrity and emotional intelligence to reputation, resilience and the courage to say no, this episode invites leaders to look honestly at the impact they have on the people around them.

As Brian reminds us:

“Gentle is not soft. Gentle is knowing how to respect people, treat them with dignity and get the best out of them.”

“The best leaders know how to get people to step up—and how to foster other great leaders.”

“You don’t have to be loud, brash, arrogant or narcissistic to be a leader. That image of leadership is a myth.”

This is an insightful and reassuring conversation for anyone who wants to lead with greater clarity, humanity and impact—and proof that leadership does not need a raised voice to leave a powerful impression.

BIO

Brian Donovan is an executive coach, speaker and author, based in Melbourne and working globally. He helps technical experts make the transition to leadership. It's the step security and technology organisations expect of the people they promote on technical credibility and rarely train them for. 

 That transition is the subject of his first book; Leadership Is Changing the Game: The Transition from Technical Expert to Leader. It draws on both sides of his career: senior executive roles at Telstra, Australia's largest telco, and CEO of the IT Skills Hub, a not-for-profit set up to grow the supply of IT professionals. Forty years in the sector means he coaches from inside the problem rather than beside it.

Brian is a self-confessed gentleman. That belief sits at the heart of The Gentle Art of Leadership, a book he co-authored with Dean Phelan to challenge the outdated notion that leaders have to be loud, brash, or domineering. The book brings together original research and interviews with more than fifty leaders worldwide. Its argument is simple: leaders who treat people with dignity and respect get the better result. The skills and practices that make that possible are learnable.

Brian is also an accredited delivery partner for Influential U, facilitating programs in Transactional Intelligence®, a framework for building the influence a leader needs to reduce friction and get results. More on the framework in the book, HIGH TQ.
 

Website: www.donovanleadership.com

LinkedIn:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianfdonovan1/

X: https://x.com/Briandonovan1

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DonovanLeadership/

Medium: https://medium.com/@brian-18714

Substack: https://substack.com/@briandonovan3

Email: brian@donovanleadership.com

Phone: +61 418 552 723

Security Circle ⭕️  is an IFPOD production for IFPO the International Foundation of Protection Officers

Transcript

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Speaker 0:01

If you enjoy the security circle podcast, please like share and comment or even better. Leave us a fab review We can be found on all podcast platforms. Be sure to subscribe. The security circle every Thursday. We love Thursdays.

Speaker 2 0:36

Hi, I'm Yolanda And welcome to the Security Circle Podcast, produced in association with IFPO, the International Foundation for Protection Officers. This podcast is all about connection, bringing you closer to the greatest minds, boldest thinkers, trailblazers, and change makers across the security industry. Whether you are here to grow your network, spark new ideas, or simply feel more connected to the world of protection and risk, you are in the right place wherever you are listening from. Thank you for being a part of the Security Circle journey..

Yoyo 1:14

Well, welcome back to the Security Circle Podcast, where we go beyond the technical, beyond the tools, and dive straight into the human side of leadership in cyber and security. Today I'm joined by someone who truly understands that leadership. Isn't just a title, it's an inner game. Brian Donovan is a globally recognized executive coach based in Australia, and he specializes in helping cyber and tech leaders elevate their influence, unlock stretch results. Lead with clarity, calm, and impact. Brian's work with leaders operating under intense pressure from crisis driven environments to complex transformation programs, and he brings a rare blend of sharp insight, emotional intelligence, and practical strategies that actually work in the real world. We're gonna let him tell you all about it, and he's also the author of two. Brilliant books and we're gonna discuss those. One is called Leadership is Changing the Game, and the other one is called The Gentle Art of Leadership, both of which Challenge Outdated Leadership Models and introduce a more human centered Future ready approach. In this episode, we're gonna dig into the Traps. Leaders fall into how to influence effectively, why inner resilience is the real performance multiplier and what the next generation of leadership truly looks like. Is he up to the task? Brian, welcome to the Security Circle podcast. How you doing? Uh,

Brian 2:45

welcome. I appreciate that. Lovely welcome. Yeah, thanks so much. That's, that's just wonderful. I really appreciate it. It's great to be here. I'm a big fan of your podcast and love the way that you interview people and it's not really just an interview, it's a conversation. You've got such an art of. Engaging with people. So I'm looking forward to engaging with you today.

Yoyo 3:07

You know, Brian, you've come a long way from Australia, so it's the very least I can do. Uh, so look, was there always a book in you I have to ask you? 'cause a lot of people I speak to have very different and exciting responses to this. Uh, was it kind of itching to come out or was it something that was a labor for you to complete?

Brian 3:29

Yeah, so look it confessed in both cases, both books, it was a bit of a labor, yo-yo, but it, like it was in there, but getting it out was challenging. And um, you know, really it's accumulation of a lot of stories from my experience with coaching people and working with leaders. And I thought, I really wanna put some of that document that, and that's what led me to the first book. Called leadership's changing the game, and, been really pleased. And, some years later to do the second book, still took me a long time. I'd like to say, I just churn 'em out, but it's never been that easy. Yoyo

Yoyo 4:07

I have to say, with all the respect in the world, you've been around a little bit. Uh, and so my first question really is kind of like what's the single biggest shift that you are seeing in how modern leaders need to show up, especially in cyber and tech, compared to some of these old fashioned methods that just clearly are not relevant anymore?

Brian 4:29

Yes. Well, look, I. On you a bit today too, yoyo, and make it very clear from the beginning that I'm no expert in, you know, the area of, uh. Security Protection Officer world, I'm gonna rely on you for that sort of knowledge. Uh, my expertise around leadership and, um, in general, I'm seeing a lot of need for leaders to develop those kind of foundation soft skills. A lot of emphasis on the technical skills we need in this AI driven era. And, you know, for the people, I suspect that. You, reach in your podcast. You know, they've come from highly specialized, highly tactical kind of jobs. And, um, you know, one of the challenges is that transition you go through from being a subject matter expert. A tactical expert into leadership. And it's, really around those. Softer skills. I hesitate to use the word soft amongst the security profession who think, oh, that means weak, but you know, we know it means, and they're the foundation skills that help you get along with people to, and bring people along with you. But that's really the highlight. If you want a better job. You want the better money, you want more rewarding career, those kind of soft skills that give you the foundation for, truly great leadership. Yoyo,

Yoyo 5:54

let's talk about those soft skills because, you know, I've got a certain person in mind that I'm thinking of right now. Um, as I say this, and a lot of our listeners, our listeners are very engaged. They want to learn, they want to be agile. They want to adapt. They have quite often come from very rigid unsupportive management structures and in developing their own careers and developing their own soft skills. You know, they're navigating in spaces within security environments that aren't always conducive to. Empathy in leadership. Yeah. But also I wanna put to you why the emergence of empathy in leadership is now becoming a very important conversation. But also why is it important to differentiate between leadership and managing people? Because they are two very different things, aren't they?

Brian 6:47

Yes. Yes. Look, I was really looking forward to, interview today because see, great questions that you ask. It's really great to be having a conversation with you and some of the people you've had on this show. You know, sir David Omond, is a good example. You know, just, uh, fabulous and just love the way that you approach it. But anyhow, back to your, the question at hand, and you know what I've, um. I gathered is in the profession that you mostly reach with this wonderful podcast. There's a lot of people with mental health challenges and you know, they're working in highly stressful environments and, irregular hours and a lot of anxiety, depression, even burnout. And you know, it's great that you are got a mission to, to help them in the job that they do, but, the question I'd like to ask with you and explore with you is, you know, who's protecting their development, particularly as leaders. And you kinda referred to why is. These kind of requirements have gone up. I think it's just because of the pressures that they're under, that the response is not to get tougher, if you like. There's a bit of a tough guy stereotype for the industry. It's not about that. The, you know, the second book that we're gonna talk about a bit today is the Gentle Art of Leadership. All of the research that, we did for that book. Uh, supports the view that you get the best results if you treat people well. Seems a pretty obvious kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Doesn't it? But in practice, not so obvious,

Yoyo 8:22

Brian, it also sounds free, like it doesn't cost a lot of money to treat people nicely. Do you know what I mean?

Brian 8:29

You don't have to be a brilliant, you know, go to Harvard and study that, do you? I mean, it's. The general are of leadership. Uh, sir David Oman is a good example. I'm sure is a thorough gentleman. I should say Yoyo. I've been accused of the same thing myself. Um, and I, I don't deny it. My dad brought me up to be a gentleman and. All the best leaders I had in my career, and it's a long career and people on your podcast can't see all this gray hair, but you can. Um, you know, all the best leaders I had, either men or women, were gentle leaders. And gentle is not soft. Gentle is someone who knows how to respect people and treat people with dignity and get the best out of them. Call 'em to account, believe in them. You know, maybe mentor them, foster their development. So those are the really effective leaders, and they achieve that through, you know, a bit of humility, a bit of, in integrity and genuine care for their people.

Yoyo 9:31

I saw a little video on Instagram just recently, and I can't remember the name of the leader. He was very influential and he was toxic. He was talking about toxic leadership. He was basically saying, you know, if you're seeing toxic leadership in the workplace and you can't move away from it, if it's too close to you. For you to be able to change it, to speak up and to do it safely or to even to try and bring about change. His ultimate recommendation was, don't stay in that space. Don't stay in that environment. He said, it's just not worth the repair work you have to do afterwards. You know, it's just not worth the impact it has on you mentally, your family, your esteem, and all of those things that are important to you in life. So what, what sort of advice do you have for somebody right now who could potentially be in a toxic environment? It's not setting them up for success, it's in fact only going to get worse. How do you manage leadership in that sort of way?

Brian 10:38

Yes. Look, there's a couple of great points you made in there. I, I love your, comment about the person saying, you know, don't hang around if you're in that kind of environment. It's, uh, that's probably a good conclusion. I mean, we did what, sort of led to the book, uh, really the general leadership was that we noticed that there's a lot of this sort of tough guy, and it's typically guys, you know, who, Probably generate this kind of toxic, leadership. You know, it's all about me, the narcissistic or, you know, brash and egotistical and, we wanted to feature more of the people who we see are more successful. As leaders, but you don't often hear from them. Yoyo, they're often just in the background. For the book, the general level leadership, we interviewed, myself and my co-author, Dean Pheon, we interviewed 50 plus leaders from around the globe who just exemplify this idea of treating people well to get good results. And overwhelmingly, we was, you know, amazed really, that they were a bit reluctant to even be interviewed. They're like, well, it's not really about me. I don't, it's my team. It's not really me. But, you know, they were smart enough to surround themselves with great people and, develop people around them. So, you know, I'd be, I'd be kinda looking for those kind of people to work with. And, uh, I really want to create a movement, towards, we need more of that style of leader.

Yoyo 12:07

I think I was too old when I realized that actually my job, it was always to make my boss look good. I, and I say this most sincerely, you know, I think, um, I think when you, when you're working collectively. To achieve a result that ultimately your boss can turn around and say how proud they are of you that, of the work that you're doing. I think if anybody who's trying to challenge their boss, rival their boss, better their boss, get one up on their boss, I think that's always gonna lead to, a negative output. And I think when you do your job. And you do it well By default, your boss looks great. Bosses don't really, and shouldn't really look for ways to stand out and look amazing. They should stand out and be and look amazing when their teams, their people are delivering great output. It's kind of like a kickback. Don't look for it. Don't ask for it. Don't put your head above the pulpit. If your team are delivering by default, you're gonna look great. How do you sit with that?

Brian 13:05

I love that. Yeah. That's so good. You, you just really nailed it. I think with that, with that description and, you know, maybe I could ask you, do you think that a lot of the, audience who'd be listening to our podcast are in that sort of realm of being really good. I read a great report from AIS International that said that about 43% of, people in the field are struggling with that transition from a tactical role to a strategic role. Yeah, that's a kinda lot of what, you're talking about. I think that suddenly the realization is, oh, I've got people, I've gotta get results through my boss. I've got my team, I've got these external people. I've gotta deal with my customers. I've gotta deal with the business units I've got to deal with. Suddenly it's moves from just all this tactical work that, you know, you've been so good at. To now, how do I work with people and influence them and get results? That's, yeah. That's the, you know, big transition. And I, from what I understand, there's not that kind of investment in people. They're often just good at being some kind of tactical protection person. Okay, we'll make you a leader.

Yoyo 14:21

Yeah.

Brian 14:22

And throw into it without any development, without any support, without any investment in you. Is that. Resonate with your experience?

Yoyo 14:29

I think tactical managers are very used to getting the job done, being very efficient, and being aware of all of the necessary tools to deliver, in fact, even compartmentalize, just deliver, whether it's, it's military into security, or whether it's policing into security. There are so many great disciplines that just tactically enable people to deliver brilliantly well, and I remember having a conversation with a really cool boss once, actually. He was really, really, he had very, very high emotional intelligence and it was quite rare. And he said to me, yo-yo, you've gotta make your mind up whether you're gonna stay in a tactical role or you're gonna deliver strategically and. I kind of looked at him and I thought, okay, okay, okay, okay. And then I went away and I thought about it, and I thought about it, and I thought about it and I just thought, no, this is the first time I had an independent thought. Instead of being kind of inspired and driven to follow someone else's advice, I thought, no, it's actually a great skill that I can both apply myself tactically and strategically, to something and I shouldn't really make a decision. To specialize, you know, in one direction or to go in one direction, I should find a job that enables me to be both and give a rounded kind of delivery rather than a singular point of, skillset. And I think a lot of our folk that are in tactical roles have a tactical. Dependency in the sense that they can just lean on it as part of their careers. You know, I say ask yourself the question, do you want to step out of that tactical delivery? Do you want to manage people? Because folk who are tactically delivering. Also tend to find it really hard to delegate as well. And therefore by default they're not really great at sharing the workload. They keep the burden on themselves, therefore the pressure increases, you know, the, all of those challenges you mentioned compound. And then they're all trying to deliver ultimately something that is undeliverable.

Brian 16:34

Yes. That's so good. Yeah. Yeah, that I think that, it sort of demonstrates the point about that transition that people need to go through. It's like you've kind of eyes open up and you think, okay, my job is not so much about handling incidents and managing threats and protecting assets. It is, and all my expertise is valuable, but now I've gotta reinvent the strength that I have. Most of us have got some inherent strength that we've traveled with us all throughout our career. My experience area is that we don't tend to know what that is. Mostly we can talk for ages about our weaknesses, you know, but we're not very clear about, well, what are we, what's our strength? And you know, it's often not a tactical strength. It's just been applied in that. Area. Does that make sense? Like you could have been a great problem solver and it gets applied in your tactical security work, but equally it can be applied in leadership. I'm a great problem solver. There's a new problem. How do I get results through people? How do I multiply what I can do on my own? And I shift from doing it myself to enabling others to do it. As you pointed, the often the subject matter expert is great as a one person band. Not, it's not scalable.

Yoyo 18:04

No, it's not. But one thing I can tell you across the security field, uh, one of the common characteristics I've found is that those people are driven by a sense of purpose. And it's that sense of purpose that tends to make them quite a little bit exploitable by their employer. And I can give you an example where I remember just traveling three hours to get back home and my boss saying, we've got a problem. It's the other end of the country. I know you've just got back home, but I need you to go there. And I traveled another two, three hours to get to the other side of the country. That sense of purpose is. It's highly powerful for an individual. 'cause you think, you know, you are always motivated by that intent to get something done, to do something, to be valuable, to be contributory to the overall, project. But ultimately those people can be driven to exhaustion and have really bad ways of setting boundaries, of saying, actually no, I've driven already six hours today and I'm staying home. I'm having dinner. I'm sorry, you have to send somebody else. And people that. Operate with that singular motive of purpose, purpose, purpose. I can be useful, I can be helpful, can be massively overused.

Brian 19:23

Yes. It's great that you're pointing to, you know, your heart can be in the right place, can't it? But

Yoyo 19:29

yeah,

Brian 19:29

you, you really need, um, to be able to take care of yourself as well. And for a lot of us, it's, learning to say no to things that, maybe not. You know, we can't be at our best or, um, you know, it's not really something that we're committed to. You know, I think it's a often underrated skill to be able to say no and to, you know, do that with grace and finesse. You know, for some people in leadership roles even, it's important for the them to learn that, that even when they're making requests of others, you can make a request of somebody. But they've got really three options, haven't they? They could say yes, they could say no, or they could make a counter offer. Yeah. Not, and you're giving them that kind of scope. There's much more grace, there's much more, finesse involved around that. And it's a bit of an art form to learn. To learn as a leader.

Yoyo 20:25

Brian, I wanna talk to you about emotional intelligence and the inner game. You, you coach leaders across the world. What's the sort of, and the reason I ask this is because I learned recently before I give you the question that, the habits of successful people, I tend to be people who commit to doing what they say they're gonna do quite simply. Right? And so I asked the question once, this was very recently. Well, well. What, why do people not do what they say they're gonna do? Why do people not go to the gym in the morning? Why do people not have that 5:00 AM run? Why do people not start that diet? You know, all those sorts of things. And ultimately it's just three words, lack of consequences. I wanna ask you, what's the hardest emotional habit for people to break? Taking into consideration the lack of consequences.

Brian 21:15

I knew I was gonna love those questions that you ask. Are you, that you're so intelligent. Yeah. And look, I think it's related to what you're saying about, your integrity. It's integrity essentially is doing what you say you'll do when you say you'll do it. And, for a lot of people they kind of underrate that, particularly if they say it for themselves. Do you know what I mean? Like, if it's about my health or about my finances or about my career, you know, well, it's only a promise to me. And, you know, forgetting that you are all important, you are the one that's building some greater reputation here. So all the little promises add up to big ones. And often I find that people will hesitate about breaking their promise to other people. I told you I'll be on this podcast today. I wouldn't think about breaking my agreement with you that we're gonna do this podcast, but then, you know, will I go to the gym tomorrow morning? I could see it. It's just an agreement with me. It's not as meaningful. And as maybe as you pointed to, there's not the consequence. I've seen some great work done with people where you start to. Invoke consequences. Well, what about, you say you're gonna go to the gym this X number of times a week. What about if you don't do it we'll shave one eyebrow off. How would that be as a consequence? Tell you what that made a difference to? Gym attendance

Yoyo 22:47

and, and I'll wanna add to that. I read also, Stephen Bartlett said this, he's a great podcaster diary of A CEO. He said, if you don't look after your health, then get used to looking after your ill health.

Brian 23:00

Yeah, that's right.

Yoyo 23:02

That's consequences, right? That's

Brian 23:04

a right one.

Yoyo 23:05

Consequences driven. So therefore that, that's the, you know, what is your ultimate motivation to do something? Tune into that, click onto the right radio frequency and remind yourself there is a reason for you to do this. And that's not that that. Does have a consequence. Find out what we can only put off cleaning out the garage. So many weekends before the weather turns, you think, oh, I've missed my window of taking stuff down to the tip. 'cause it's raining constantly and you think, oh, that is the consequences. Next time when you get your window of good weather, you think, yay, I'm just gonna go and jump and do this now before, um, you know, I, I, I get hollered at by my partner. Consequences, I think, shall we encourage people to focus on the consequences for when they make decisions then, and get them to make decisions with consequences in mind.

Brian 23:54

I, I think creating a consequential environment is a really smart move. A really smart move. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not just, um, you know, my example of shaving your eyebrow off well, it's more that you are putting yourself in an environment where people expect great things of you. Do you know when I was much younger, I played, uh, tennis. I was a middling kind of tennis player, and one day I was invited to play with these champion tennis players, and I was a bit daunted by the prospect of it. But on that particular day, yeah, I played the best tennis I've ever played. Do you know, I just lifted my game because of the environment that I was in. It was much more consequential. So it is a great point, and we ought to think a lot about that. Where do we place ourselves and who do we surround ourselves with? And I, I just want to come back to a point you made about emotional intelligence and, uh, there's been a lot of, um, worked and I've been studying with a group in the US called Influential You. So the U is the letter U, uh, we'll put a link in the show notes, I'm sure to help people look them up. Uh, but they talk about transactional intelligence. I found it's just a step beyond just being self-aware. It's about how do you get things done. Now, you know, all the professionals that you are reaching with this podcast are interested in influencing results, you know, whether it's leading a team or closing a deal or. You know, securing buy-in for their idea. Um, the success is a bit more than just expertise. It's the ability to move people and align people, and the transaction's got a bit of a bad press. But really, if we think about what the original intention of the word transactions, it's across and it's action. It's about getting things done. So having a coffee and working out a time to do a podcast, interviews all a transaction, but so's uh, closing a deal and handling an incident and. All the kinds of things we have to do in our day-today lives. So learning transactional intelligence, I've found is a great way of people to develop this general art of leadership that I've been talking about. That's the read the book. You'll understand why track practice, the general art of leadership. Transactional intelligence is a bit about the how.

Yoyo 26:22

You, you made me laugh when you talked about shaving an eyebrow off because my, when I was in my teens, I think I must have been about 13. My brother who was 18 months younger than me, um. Shaved one of his eyebrows off for a laugh, came to dinner, didn't say anything, and he couldn't, he couldn't eat his dinner because he couldn't stop giggling. And, and my mom was like, stop mucking around, you know, what was going on. And he was just giggling and giggling, dribbling out of his mouth. He was laughing so much. I twigged what he'd done. And then I started giggling because we'd sat there originally and not realized what was wrong. We couldn't, you know, and once you saw his eyebrow was missing, it was just a roll on the floor moment. Anyway, we were giggling, we were both giggling. My mom was losing her patient and she was like, what the hell? Come on guys, just, you know, knuckle down and eat your dinner like this. And I had to tell her I had,

Brian 27:16

she didn't even know.

Yoyo 27:18

Like shaved his eyebrow off and when she looked, my brother's tears were coming down the side of his face and when she looked she's like, oh, your pillock like this. You know? And then saw how funny it was. But it's amazing how we can't see the obvious things. Um,

Brian 27:35

yeah.

Yoyo 27:35

I love,

Brian 27:36

that's amazing.

Yoyo 27:37

I love what you talked about in terms of transactional intelligence and I'm gonna lurk up more about that. Um. But my question,

Brian 27:44

I would encourage you to do that.

Yoyo 27:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My question to you is, our security listeners around the world, they often face incomplete information, shifting risk, you know, so how can leaders, decision makers stop overthinking and start something that you talk about in your book? High quality thinking.

Brian 28:07

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, back to my influential, you reference the term they have for it is accurate thinking. You know, a lot of us don't do the thinking that's required to make something happen. You know, you were talking before about making promises. Well, you know, as you make promises, you need to be aware of, well, what's it gonna take? And how do I fit that into my priorities? I can make it meaningful. You know, I can think of examples of people I've worked with who were, you know, people pleasers, you know, all the time saying yes to things, but of course it just wasn't possible. Yeah, yeah. Because they didn't have any priorities that are just bouncing like pinball machines from one thing to the next, and then people are getting annoyed with 'em because they're not actually doing what they said they would do, but they're stuck in the. Habit, if you like, of trying to please other people and thinking the way to do that is to say yes to everything, whereas actually it's gonna please people and gonna get more respect if you are able to negotiate, well look, I can't do it by Wednesday, but I could do it by Friday. Is that acceptable to you? Make a counteroffer? So it's kind of bringing that sort of rigor to the thinking that, we need as leaders, I think, to make. You know, informed commitments. Does that make sense, Ian?

Yoyo 29:31

Yeah. Massively. But I, I also know people who have forced themselves to work in really unhealthy environments when they don't, they're trying to sort of, on one hand. Create a better environment that's completely out of their control. And I've become quite frustrated with a couple of people who are quite close to me, where I've just said, leave. Just leave. You know, it's almost like. You know, people don't stay, people don't leave relationships that are unhealthy when they should. They stay and they try and make it work, or they have a guilt to leave and move on, or, and, you know, I get it, you know, deciding to leave your job and find another one is it's a mammoth task. It's a bit like, you have to put a lot of energy into it. You have to make it work, is it easier to stay where you are and suffer, or is it easier to genuinely be in control of your future? And sometimes people don't see that as early as they should. And why put yourself through the pain when you don't need to? Brian, what would your, what have you told other senior leaders who've come to you in the past and said. You know, look, I don't think I can make this situation any better, but I wanna try and make it work.

Brian 30:55

Yeah. That it is great. And it happens fairly regularly. Yoyo and I love the phrase that you use about, control your future. You know, that's the essential piece that I think if people start to realize, well, look, I've got agency so you know, if I don't like it here, I need to be able to define, well, what is it I do want? I've done it in my own career, and this goes back some decades you, so there's been plenty of experience of thinking about kinds of environments I wanna work in. And you know, at one point I remember thinking, I don't really wanna be in this environment anymore, where people are just covering their bums and not really doing much. I want to be able to make something happen. And so, but I needed to be able to articulate, well what do I want? You know, because if I'm the magic genie and I come and I say, yoyo, you can have all your wishes. What are they? You know, you sounds easy, doesn't it? But we, we takes a bit of thinking about, well, what do I want in my case, oh, I wanted to do something I'd never been done before. I wanted to have a great team. I wanted to get a sense of excitement when I wake up in the morning. You know? So then you can start to go after that. Now, it might be possible we're in the current. Just haven't kind of looked at that angle before, but sometimes it means gotta find it somewhere else. But I think the missing piece for a lot of leaders I notice is just being known for something yoyo, you know, having some, being famous for something if you like. Do you know people think about about them and they think, oh yeah, that's that person who's. You know, really great in that particular area or that person who's great at getting results through people or, you know, there's some great examples of, you know, people being employed because they're the turnaround person. You know, they've got that reputation for being able to take a difficult situation and turn it around into something really great.

Yoyo 32:57

Let me challenge that though, because on the flip side, let's imagine a character who is, known for something, but what they're known for is more negative than positive. This person is known as a fixer. This person isn't known as necessarily giving clarity in leadership direction. This person's known for playing bad cop. And, on occasion this person has even said, you know, sometimes I have to make the, you know, the, the less favorable sometimes I have to be the bad cop and they know that that makes them unpopular. But you see, I have a real issue with that. I'm like, what are you doing? You know why? Why settle for that lane when there are so many other options to influence other people, but in a better way that doesn't have such a negative and toxic outcome for you? So when someone comes to me and says. Oh, you know, that person's just completely upset me. They've done something and they've just trampled over this and trampled over that, whatever. And I said, what made you think you were gonna get treated any differently? You know, that person has a reputation for a reason because of how they treat other people, so the biggest mistake you can make is in thinking, 'cause they haven't turned on you yet, that you are special. You have to equip yourself with the knowledge of how people are known, around you. And that's how you adapt your own style. In essence, you prepare your defenses for that happening to you.

Brian 34:29

Yes, yes. Yeah. Look, I think there's probably a point you are making there that, you know, we need to be responsible for where we put ourselves, isn't it? And you know, so you would do, if you're going to buy a house, you'd do some market research about the market. And, you know, similarly here, I think, you know, we've got a, a role to play to understand well for this strength that we have. What's the market say about that? What's the demand for that kind of thing that we are known for? And one way that, I found people can do that successfully is to build a wide network. Now it's sometimes called, networking. Yo-yo, but I really don't like that turn. I suspect you don't either. It sounds a bit sleazy really, doesn't it? You know, networking in the sense of, look, I want something, can you give it to me? But what I mean is talking to your network about exchanging value. You know, I've got this particular thing that be in my buyer. I've got this strength, I've got this ability to solve a problem. Who do you think needs that? You know, people are happy to talk about that kind of exchange of value. And in the process you're doing some market intelligence. You're finding out. You know, what is the demand for my offer? Just seems to make good business sense to me. Yeah,

Yoyo 35:58

right, exactly. But look, we all know that security is always about doing updates, keeping, aligned to your governance risk and compliance, handbook. Taking that into consideration, what do you think leaders need to update most urgently?

Brian 36:16

Yes. Oh, I think the most urgent thing is updating that, inherent strength they have, you know, if we think about the 50 plus leaders who are in the book that I spoke about, you know, they all had this, I think, great ability to think about the strength they have and how to take it to a new level. Can I give you a couple of examples?

Yoyo 36:38

These, we love examples.

Brian 36:40

Yeah, well, you know, Diana Kelly is, a Chief Information Security Officer at, NOMA Security. It's an GIE AI security platform. And a good example, earlier in her career, she had this commitment to mentoring a younger up and coming, leader, and realized that she was keener on mentoring the person than the person was to receive it. So she's been much more, much smarter about now as careful to listen and establish well, are they ready or open, and, you know, make the call if they're not ready. Well, they're not, you know, don't try forcing mentoring on them. It's, it is kind of example of, a leader thinking how to reinvent that, ability. They have to connect with people. It's not always just. Doing whatever, might be in front of them. They might give a bit more thought to that. So some great examples in the book, and in the security field, but more in the cybersecurity field. Debbie Taylor Moore is another example. She's the, managing partner of a new group called, quantum Crunch. Uh, they're, they're advising C-suites and boards about, cyber risk. From quantum computing and you know, the example in her case was there was an employee, there was a new acquisition and a newly acquired, the new acquire said, where's this guy who's away on sick leave? Let's, he was in hospital with cancer, let's sack him. And she said, no, no, no. That's not the right thing to do. And you know, even though there was a new boss, fought to keep him on the payroll and keep his position. And, you know, it was at risk of her perhaps losing hers, but she was successful in that situation and the employees since fully recovered and well employed because of the impact of her compassion. So the, these are examples of people you can kind of get the sense, you know, that they, didn't just stop at some view of their abilities as a leader. They kept reinventing it. And it, you know, it takes a little bit of thinking about, well, you know, how do I take my ability to another level to be able to get results through people?

Yoyo 38:56

Mm-hmm.

Brian 38:57

Shall I give you a third one? Have we got time to do that?

Yoyo 38:59

100%. Go for it.

Brian 39:02

Mike Piete. He's a great guy in the us. Probably one of the leading, recruiters, executive recruiters in the cybersecurity field. It's called the Si o Whisperer in the community. He's committed to helping cybersecurity leaders succeed. That's why. And he'll help people who, you know, often the recruiters get a bad press because they don't wanna talk to people when they, try to fill jobs. But sometimes, as we know, people will be outta work. Michael will work with them and help them think about that thing that they want to be known for, you know, help them develop some collateral about that. Kind of working with people and is not even a commercial, thing involved at that point, but it really sets him apart from some of the, recruitment agencies who, you know, are just there for the, just there for the dollar, you know, a genuine commitment to building relationships. So again, another example of. Of a security leader thinking about, well, how do I build a bigger business and a make a bigger difference through building relationships?

Yoyo 40:09

Mm-hmm. I love that.

Brian 40:11

So we were coming back to where we started. Yeah, yeah. Which is that essential thing that a lot of those examples illustrate that, you really need to develop those foundational soft skills, those ability, those abilities to work with people and get the best from people. They're the key things that, you ought to be developing.

Yoyo 40:31

Yeah, 100%. I can't disagree with that and I love that as well. I think the listener's gonna be going away thinking, yeah, what do I wanna be known for? And then, and it also ties in very nicely to the work that I do on social media, on LinkedIn. What do you wanna be known for on LinkedIn? You know, what's your narrative, what you know, when someone mentions your name, what do you wanna be known for? I think it's, it's a really nice. Way of thinking and taking that into the workplace. What do you wanna be known for there? What do you wanna be known for by your boss? You know what's, it's a bit like having an elevator pitch, isn't it? And

Brian 41:05

yeah,

Yoyo 41:05

your, your, what's the, what am I trying to think of? I, I'm trying to think of something. When someone. Okay. Brand, personal brand. This links really nicely into personal brand because if you were to ask six people around, a guy called Bob at work, for example, just a guy called Bob, call him Bob, six people who describe him, that's his brand. The brand is what people think about you at this current time. And Bob's gotta be thinking, well, am I happy with that? You know, do I want that brand or do I want to change my brand? What do I wanna be known for? And I think that's also something that really nicely translates to, what do you wanna be known for on LinkedIn? What's your social media? And clearly you've mastered that really well. Your LinkedIn profile is awesome, but look, tough question this one, Brian. What's the one piece of advice you give that makes people uncomfortable but transforms them once they try it?

Brian 42:02

Wow. I just love your questions. Okay. Repeat it. What's the one thing that makes people uncomfortable?

Yoyo 42:09

Yeah. What's the one piece of advice that you give that makes people feel uncomfortable but transforms them once they try it? And I wondered if it was just like holding a mirror up to somebody. Maybe they don't.

Brian 42:20

Yeah. It is. It is. Yeah. And a lot, a lot of the work we do, particularly around those influential you, uh, and their group training programs is holding a mirror up to people, you know, because it works two ways. Um, one is the mirror shows you what your superpower might be, you know, whether it's problem solving or, uh, you know, whether it's getting results through people. Whether it's, you are great at analyzing facts and data or you're great at getting things done, you know, it holds the mirror up that, but it also holds up the mirror to what's the other side of that, you know? So the great ideas, people often are not so good. ADD implementation. Execution's a bit boring for them and you know, great at generating new ideas and talking about 'em. And you know, for another kind of personality type, the ability to get along with people and connect with them, you know, that's a good superpower, but actually turning into, well, what are we gonna do? And who's gonna do it? Often not so good. But then there's the kind of person who's great at getting things done, but is it the right thing to be working on or is it just busy work? Yeah, you know, then there's the kind, lastly, there's the kind of person who's great at evaluating facts and data and setting the standards. But you know, it can often sound a bit, uh, critical. And even, dare I say, cynical, you know, oh, that won't work. We tried that and it's no good. You know? So there's two sides to this superpower. Yeah. I can see that's prompted a lot of thought in your mind. You've got some questions burning.

Yoyo 44:04

Well, I have one more and, uh, the, the last one is what's the sort of leadership myth that springs to mind that you love to break and say? It's just a myth, it's not real.

Brian 44:16

Uh, yeah. Right, right. So you questions are so good. Uh, look, the myth I'm really mostly on about is, you don't have to be loud, brash, arrogant. Narcissistic. You know, it is often the image that people think of when they think leader. You know, the reason I say at the beginning of a podcast is if you're thinking, if you're coming onto the podcast thinking, I'm gonna hear from this guy who knows everything and is telling me how it is, you are in the wrong place. 'cause it's not me. That's not. The leaders that I've loved, the leaders who've got the best out of me, who believed in me and encouraged me, that that's also not them. So I'm really on a mission to explode that myth. Uh, yeah. Yeah. That you need to be a loud, noisy, you know, mostly male. Yeah. I, I hate to say it, but mostly my male counterparts, you know, look at me. It's, and it's all ego driven. It's a myth. The best leaders are the ones who know how to treat people well. The best leaders are the ones who know how to get people to step up, you know, who can foster other great leaders? Am I, am I in danger of being on my soapbox singer? You?

Yoyo 45:39

Oh, you can stay on it as long as you like. I, I, I know that we're gonna be giving people a lot of food for thought today, and we're also gonna be putting your links to your books as well so that people can just take a little deeper look, maybe even, you know, read it, uh, which would be great. Brian, let us know when you're coming over to the uk. Definitely if you're ever over this way, although I know now with the powers of Zoom and teams, you know, we can all do our jobs beautifully, remotely, including having you here on the Security Circle podcast. Brian, for all of your wisdom and your gentleman Leanness, thank you so much for joining us.

Brian 46:18

Thank you. Yo, it's been such a pleasure and thank you for such a delightful interview. I've really enjoyed it.

Yoyo 46:24

Well, you can come back.

Brian 46:27

I love it. And all power to you. You're doing some great work with your podcast and I should have also acknowledged you have been announced as a judge for the 2026 Cyber Outstanding Security Performance Award. So you know, you're really getting known for something too. Yo, so. It's great to be talking to you on those topics.

Yoyo 46:46

Thank you. I think if anything, I just wanna encourage people to get nominating and don't rely on somebody to nominate you sometimes in this world, I think we can't rely on people to shine a light on us. We have to do it ourselves. And don't be ashamed of that. Sing your praises and get yourself nominated or ask someone to nominate you. Send them your nomination. Say, send that in for me. It's really a nice experience to have peers review your work, but most importantly, as a judge. What I look for, certainly when it gets down to the lifetime achievement or, you know, the big ones. I look for what leaders do above and beyond what's in the cv. I don't really wanna look at someone's CV and see that they're just really doing a great job. I wanna see how they pay it forward in the industry, how they share their thought leadership and ideas and how they innovate in a pro bono way. So I'm always looking for that and unfortunately those folk tend to be quite shy about singing about what they do. So, get yourself nominated and shine because that's the best way you can make the best impact by leading in that way and inspiring others. That's why I love being a judge.

Brian 48:07

Great advice, Yo, and we are starting to recognize those people who are practicing the gentle art of leadership, who great at building relationships. That, that's great to see. You are incorporating that in your, your work as a judge thanks, yoyo. It, it's been a pleasure.