#13: 'Avatar: Fire & Ash' and the Future of Pandora

Sivako! Carson & Preston are finally delivering on their long-teased Avatar episode! Talking all about James Cameron's blockbuster saga: the most recent installment, 'Fire & Ash,' their journeys with Pandora, and the future of the franchise.

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Transcript

Avatar: Fire & Ash Hype

Preston 0:19

Welcome into Zoll Pod. I am your host, Preston Moore. Joined alongside as always, my co-host, Carson Terrell. Carson. This episode has been in the making for a while. I think we've talked about it on every single episode that we've done since we kind of revamped this podcast. Actually, we've teased this exact episode, and I know that both of us are extremely excited, to get underway with this thing. We're talking Avatar Fire and Ash Carson. Finally, it's here.

Carson 0:50

Finally we made it, you might compare us talking about this episode to when this episode is actually happening to the gap from the original avatar in 2009 to avatar wave of water in 2022. So it kind of feels like, but hey, we're here in 2026. You and I both have a very special place for this saga in terms of our, endearment to it in terms of how it inspired us. Way back when, when we were Louis lads watching this in 3D in 2009, as I'm sure a lot of people our age had this similar experience, like, oh my gosh, what is this movie? Here we are. I can't believe we have three avatar movies now at this point. We have a trilogy of avatar movies and it says, it's crazy to say that, and I can't wait to talk about this newest installment.'cause as of right now, I'm not afraid to say this, it's probably my favorite franchise. I wouldn't even call it like a franchise. And we can get into the distinctions of

Preston 1:48

Yeah.

Carson 1:49

Later, but it, you know, it's definitely a overarching saga of stories. And obviously this movie actually more than the last one, is very connected. and three kind of go hand in hand. They're a one-two punch. And so yeah, I'm just excited to talk about it. And we got new characters, we got new stuff. We got a lot of new things happening in Pandora.

The Mangkwan Ash Clan & Quaritch

Preston 2:12

A lot of new things. This movie introduces a ton. I just kind of to back up what you were saying, it's a fantastic, saga. And it's something that, like you said, both you and I have a special place in our hearts for it. Again, like you said, back in 2009, it was like the first big kid movie that I think I saw one of the very first quote unquote grownup movies. It's not a grownup movie, but, you know, it's a little bit more serious than, than what you're used to. I showed my, my little brother these movies and they were certainly the biggest movies that he's watched, the most mature movies that he's watched. And so that was exciting, for me. And, yeah, we, we have memories with the saga and it's crazy. In 2026, here we are talking about Avatar three, avatar Fire, and Ash. Actually here after all this time, obviously there was that long wait before the way of water, so just getting into it, I guess, that wait for the way of Water was a very long wait. And then less of a long wait in between way of water and fire and ash in many ways. Because these two movies were written as one script that were eventually split into two. And that shows very clearly that it was kind of a, part one and part two in, some ways. Carson, what were your thoughts though, on Avatar Way of Water part two, as it could be called, or obviously Avatar Fire and as.

Carson 3:34

I really, really loved it. I think structurally and pacing wise, it's probably the least strongest movie of the three in terms of, How messy it can get at times and how it feels we're bouncing between a ton of different things. And you know, obviously it's a little different that you don't have the luxury of the time gap that the last movie had to establish its foothold into the, the ne like its own thing. It's like this picks up, I think a week, a week after spoilers, Natum dies, I think a week after Natam dies. And so when I first saw it, I was like, oh crap. Like we're, we're back into, we're like literally back on the reef, like with the, with the reef people and we're, we're right back into the thick of it. And so that, like, I think the more I think about it became a luxury of the story is like there is no. There's no like, hiding from like, just life happening. And so like, I thought it was really fascinating how it like, dealt with the grief in the beginning of the movie and just like having to like move forward and make a bunch of new decisions. And especially, you know, with Jake's arc, like they can't hide anymore. Like that's no longer part of the agenda. Like, it, this is bigger than them. And yeah, it's like fascinating. It was sitting there in the theater and I was like, you know, for those first 45 minutes or so, I was like, man, like did a really good job of selling this as like, very different from way of water. Even though, I guess I expected the movie to kind of like really dive into the fire people right away. Like, if you had asked me November 30th, what did I think this movie was gonna open with? I would've told you it would've been something like, like the. knew that Looc was gonna be the narrator, right? But then like, I'm like, oh, we're gonna immediately be introduced to this, this new, new clan and new way of stuff. And like, you know, they're gonna be beyond the water stuff at this point, but like, no, like, it's all a part of their life. And they're like their allies at this point. So that was like my biggest surprise going into the movie was like all the stuff that that happened kind of carried over very directly. And it makes, it makes total sense the more I think about it. But that was kinda the most shocking thing to me, is how much it just continued on, like, as you said, like way of water part two.

Preston 6:07

Yeah.

Carson 6:07

the more it went on, the more I was on board with it. And of course, you know, one of the biggest complaints of this movie that people have is that like the fire people don't really get justice in terms of like, you have one amazingly fleshed out villain. Who also kind of disappears by the end of the movie, and it doesn't feel the same as like how fleshed out, the omaze were in way of water. And so it's like, I totally get that complaint, but I think it's so interesting, and I wanted to get your thoughts on this initially. Like you saw these behind the scenes clips of James Cameron talking about the fire people talking about meringue, talking about sort of their, their embodiment of there's bad navi and there's navi that don't necessarily all live the same and kind of have the same ethics of whatever. What was your impression of like actually seeing them in the movie and like, obviously the scene in the hut where she, is talking to portraits for the first time and we get like the story about how their, clan or the volcano erupted and basically like the whole awa didn't save us and like this sort of rejection of everything that. The navi out sacred.'cause they're kind of just like pirates. Like,

Preston 7:24

Yeah.

Carson 7:25

I mean, literally when we're introducing them, they're rating the wind traders. Right.

Preston 7:29

Mm-hmm.

Carson 7:29

that's

Preston 7:30

Mm-hmm.

Carson 7:31

what was your first impression of like their whole worldview and like characterization?

Preston 7:36

Yeah, I thought you bring up a good point in Disney selling this as really an entirely different entry. And I think some people who maybe didn't like it as much, bought into that. So that's where I'm like, maybe Disney selling it as something entirely different. Maybe it was in some cases to their detriment almost, because a lot of people went in expecting something entirely new. And I think when it comes to this movie, it is very similar to the way of water. And you talked about, the Ash people as they're called. And Ong is a fantastic villain and I just, I really liked everything that they did with them. And it left you wanting for more in a lot of ways because Ong does sort of just disappear. She kind of just flies away at a certain moment. I think she kind of realizes in that final battle, that Kiri has overpowered her in, in, there's nothing that, that she can necessarily do. And maybe she's in too deep with all of this stuff that she didn't even sign up for in a lot of ways. I mean, she wanted the guns obviously, but in terms of, getting really into that battle, she certainly didn't expect to encounter someone as powerful as Kiri or as nai. And so whenever you get into that, I would've liked to have seen more, of the ash people. But also I really liked what we did get and I felt like we still got a lot. And so it's, it's this weird kind of dichotomy of feeling like, man, they were really cool and, but at the same time it would've been cool to see even more of them. But what they did that was interesting for me. Is, and Spider has a huge deal to do with this too. Spider is at the, the heart and soul of this whole movie, really. But what they did with the monk Kwan, the Ash people that was really interesting is they were able to open up qua in a way that we have not seen him opened up. We have not seen these sides of ridge whatsoever in the first two. Certainly not in the first one. You get hints at it maybe in the second one, but the second one, you know, way of water. A lot of ridge is just sort of, you know, reinventing.

Carson 9:46

up to his own per, I mean,'cause like he's a new person um, this guy's memories

Preston 9:53

Yeah.

Carson 9:53

we get the iconic stuff of him crushing his own skull and sort of deciding who he wants to be and also deciding, who he wants to be to Spider, which also, happens a lot more in this movie insert the famous cheeseburger meme that this movie has,

Preston 10:09

Brought your burger. Brought your burger. He just smacks it. That's a funny scene because it's like, like you also, and that scene kind of mirrors a scene from the way of water as well when they have spider in the holding cell. And I thought that was

Carson 10:24

him.

Preston 10:25

interesting too, the way it mirrors that. And also the way that, you know, spider sort of, it's kind of the first time actually that Koic mentions at all spider's mom, and then all of a sudden you've got this like spider's, this moment of spider like, oh my, my mom. I, I've never heard anything about my mom from my dad. Certainly not. And so, you know, I thought that was really interesting as well. But I, that meme, the Bracha burger meme is so funny to me because it's like. A spider doesn't know what a burger is, dude.

Carson 10:58

Yeah.

Preston 10:59

Like, I mean, like

Carson 11:00

And.

Preston 11:00

he is, he is functionally and by obviously by the end it's the big, the big ending of this movie. But functionally, for all intents and purposes, he's a navi. What do you mean you brought him a burger and a yellow Whataburger looking wrap that it's just like, here you go.

Carson 11:15

Y dude, this actually makes me want to go on this rabbit hole because, you know, like in Dune when Paul Tradies and the first movie is like, he's watching the old clips of Iraqis. Like he has these files that he's watching about the history of AR Iraqis and the history of the remen, yada, yada. I was like, do we, you know, and then there's like, okay, in wave water, they got the camera that they take the family pictures on. Does Norm have like a collection of movies from Earth? Like,

Preston 11:45

That's interesting. Maybe he does know what a burger is.

Carson 11:49

are they watching the news from Earth? Like, are they tuned in to the RRDA

Preston 11:53

RDA,

Carson 11:54

you know, whatever.

Preston 11:55

I don't know. That's an interesting question. I would guess, no, I would guess that they're kind of unplugged, like within the, within the, I guess the resistance base, if you will, within,

Carson 12:09

Yes.

Preston 12:10

the almight Kaya people and Norman them, I would guess that they're unplugged as much as they can, even though they also still have, a healthy amount of human technology.

Carson 12:20

It's also valid to bring up, you have. The city being built up more and more in this movie, right?

Preston 12:27

Yes, I.

Carson 12:28

the industrialized base. You know, we have all these operations going on, they're doing namely, the wailing and the mining and all these extractive, things to all the different ecosystems of Pandora. And we know from way of water that they're extracting, this stuff

Preston 12:45

Am Rita.

Carson 12:46

'cause it stops human aging. And I think this is gonna be a huge plot point moving forward in terms of like, we're going to earth, like we're gonna see, like, we're gonna see like these, the,

Preston 12:58

There are deleted scenes from the first avatar

Carson 13:02

from

Preston 13:03

of, uh, Jake on Earth. Yeah.

Carson 13:04

yeah,

Preston 13:05

And it was a really, they had a really interesting, I don't know if they'll keep it, but they had that interesting like cyberpunk vibe to earth in those shots.

Carson 13:14

Well, and you have to remember too, like Earth is now age and other. Two decades, or, you know, at least 15 years, however old is right

Preston 13:23

Mm-hmm.

Carson 13:23

Um, so that gives it some interesting because it's like, obviously a lot has changed from when they first took over Pandora to now. And what I wanted to bring up about the technology and the phone, the news stuff is like, when Jake turns himself in, in this movie, there's more and more humans, recording him like a martyr.

Preston 13:45

Yeah.

Carson 13:46

It's kind of the equivalent of like, oh my gosh. You know, when a country goes and captures a terrorist and it's all over the news. It's like that, but they're all happy about it.

Preston 13:55

Uh,

Carson 13:55

to wonder like the propaganda of like the stuff.'cause we don't have that POV at all. It's like we're seeing.

Preston 14:02

we don't get any of that.

Carson 14:04

close and person. So, but they're, the humans are like all over it. And so like, I think that was a fascinating perspective. They brought in the movie as well as during that scene to kind of loop it back to, KO's arc, Ark in this movie is like when he shows up with Jake and he's, you know, he has the, the ash people markings all over him. He's kind of like, assimilating with them and kind of being like, kind of adopting their ways much like obviously Jake has over time. and the general kind of, rats him out for it. He is like, look at yourself man, like you're not, and it's fascinating. It's like your most loyal guy right? Brings you Jake Soly and you're like, basically like, what? Why are you wear, why are you wearing this? Like, you look ridiculous. Like. It just absolutely blows my mind too.'cause it's like they, they started this whole program and then like are basically like still just like racist against them, like constantly. It's just fascinating. And then like the second he like to anybody from the fire clan, even though they're helping the humans, like that dichotomy was fascinating to me in this movie. Like, it doesn't matter side they're on, like they still, there's just this hate towards the navi. Have Koge like trying to pick sides here and he just has a really morally gray arc.'cause it's like kind of start to think there's some light for him, but like at the same time, he just keeps going down this rabbit hole of darkness and I think pretty definitively by this movie. It's like, yes he has this attachment to spider, but he's kind of down in the dumps, like I don't think there is a redemption arc going to happen anymore.

Preston 15:58

No, I,

Carson 15:59

was glimmers of

Preston 15:59

yeah,

Carson 16:00

this, but

Preston 16:01

I don't think there's any,

Carson 16:03

thoughts

Preston 16:03

I don't think there's a redemption. It's interesting because I've seen a lot of fan theories that say like at the end, he was supposed to be the one to open his eyes. The previous two movies both ended with Jake opening his eyes as the final shot. And this one, they did not have anyone opening their eyes as the final shot. They just got this big zoom out of all of Pandora and, uh,

Carson 16:26

being connected. I.

Preston 16:26

being connected. Right, right. And so there's some symbolic meaning there as well. Um, but I don't know as far as Ric having a redemption arc. I mean, for all intents and purposes he is dead. Maybe. Well, I don't, you know, we, that's, that's kind of what the movie

Carson 16:43

though,

Preston 16:43

tells us.

Carson 16:44

they're gonna bring'em back.

Preston 16:45

Yes.

Carson 16:46

this is the core conflict of the whole thing.

Preston 16:48

Yeah. I would be shocked if they didn't bring him back. I don't know. I liked everything that they got. The best scenes in this movie. For me, the most interesting scenes in this movie are the scenes where we get Ric and Jake talking about this.

Carson 17:06

man's memories.

Preston 17:07

Oh my, his delivery, his dead man's memory. It's so good. And then the scene before that, earlier in the film, when they're kind of, they've just escaped the Mon Kwan and they're looking around. They're, they're they

Carson 17:22

Looking for the kids.

Preston 17:23

They found the kids at that point, but then instinctually,

Carson 17:26

or

Preston 17:26

yeah, instinctually, rightfully so. Instinctually Ridge is like, all right, well let's fight. You know, like, we've, we escaped them now what We've got unfinished business to attend to. And they're like, man, we don't have our, like, we're outta arrows. And he is like, we got our knives. And he is like, but we're kind of tired. And they are tired. And frankly, you never know when the ash people are gonna come back. It's like, are you really gonna have a battle right here, right now? But also, neither of them necessarily wants to let the other one run away and go. And so they get this moment where they actually for the first time. In the series, they have a moment where they get to sort of, maybe not, it's not, I, I wouldn't necessarily say the first time in the series, but the first time they get a quiet moment in the series where they get to discuss kind of their motivations and they get to talk about this sort of thing and just kind of say like, you know what, what does he say?

Carson 18:19

as

Preston 18:20

Yeah. And he is like,

Carson 18:21

gets to, he gets, yeah,

Preston 18:22

he's like, you've seen it now. You've seen it tonight. You know, like you saw Kiri,

Carson 18:28

do what she

Preston 18:28

do what she did to free us and connect to awa and connect to the plants around you and the flora and una to tune, to send a little darts out. And you know, it help us escape. And then you also saw spider. Now he's breathing. Like that doesn't happen through the science that we've had, or it didn't happen through the science that the humans had. This is what is happening here. On Pandora. This is awa. This is the connection between, things. And he's just imploring him to say, look, dude, like you get it now. You're not that, you're not that guy. You're not koge anymore. You are.

Carson 19:06

like you can choose to be who you are.

Preston 19:08

Yeah.

Carson 19:08

And this whole thing that we've been building on of like, obviously Jake was not a navi until he, basically chose to be and then was, resurrected in the body. And then like the kids being bullied for being like the half breeds. But like, yet they are very connected to their, to their roots. And, you know, they're obviously, we have the whole arc in this movie of Loock kind of, falling up from the last movie, finally stepping up for himself and kind of coming into his own of who he is meant to be. And like all this stuff of like them choosing and impacting the story. And I think what Cameron's getting at is like, it's like Jake's kind of calling him a loser, but I'm like, you don't have to be a loser man. Like, you're like, this is, this is stupid. Like you're fighting for the wrong team and you don't even know it. And. That scene, you're so right when they're like, all right, we gotta fight now. And it's like, dude, like it's time for bed like this. It's basically what

Preston 20:05

We're really gonna fight right now.

Carson 20:07

so off guard. And so like, when Naati comes back and sees them, it's like he has no choice but to run.'cause he's, he's not only scared of obviously being captured there, but like, I think he's scared of experiencing more with them.

Preston 20:23

Yeah.

Carson 20:24

Especially with Spider because like the deeper you go with that relationship, the more obstructed you become with being, you know, military macho guy who's gonna hunt down Jake Soly. And even when you do hunt down Jake Soly, we're gonna criticize how you did it and, well, we didn't want you to do it this way. Like, take, take the win General. But like

Preston 20:49

Yeah.

Carson 20:50

you're disposable. You're entirely disposable and your biggest enemy. It is like giving you an all a branch multiple times, and I think that is completely fascinating, this whole movie and then the ang of it all, throwing a wrench and everything

Preston 21:04

Right He's got feelings essentially for,

Carson 21:08

yeah.

Preston 21:09

a Navi woman here now he's like attracted to. And they actually show that, I mean, there were some like theories obviously beforehand. Like, is this what they're getting into with Ang? Is this what, like, is it gonna be a qua and ang relationship in any sort of a romantic or sexual way? And you don't really know and you can't quite tell, and then there's just straight up a shot of them laying in bed and you're like, okay, it's,

Carson 21:33

Yep. Here we are.

Preston 21:35

Which adds another level of depth. And that's something that I think a lot of blockbusters in this day and age might not even have the balls to do, is to have them have that sort of relationship, you know?

Carson 21:48

Yeah. And the fact that we've spent like 20 minutes talking about just the OG villain of this series, and not even the hero stuff. Like is it just a testament to I think the strength of the characterization and the ultimately, I think, best decision that it was to bring him back, because he's good in the first movie, right? But he's also, very,

Preston 22:10

it's pretty one dimensional. Yeah. He's, he is an archetype.

Carson 22:14

he's this guy and, you know, or aren't in Kansas

Preston 22:16

Yeah. Yeah.

Carson 22:17

you know what you're getting into, but then like gets to movie two and three. You're like, oh,

Preston 22:23

Especially in this one.

Carson 22:24

feel bad for this guy, but like, man. This is a season, a bit of a conundrum and

Preston 22:32

Yeah. You're like, what would you do? What would I do in that scenario? Like, I don't know what I like, it's just, it's a very, it's a very interesting arc that they kind of put him on, and I just loved it in this film, especially. Uh, I thought that

Sully Family Arcs & Big Moments

Carson 22:47

Spider about the mom too, to bring back that point of like, from his perspective, the mom, you know, went out fighting and died and it's Jake's fault that the mom died. And then to use that against spider is also fascinating.'cause then it's like in your head too, it's like, okay, my mom is dead and it's my family's fault. And now also my adopted family just said that they wanna merk me in the woods.

Preston 23:17

yeah.

Carson 23:20

probably one of the strongest scenes of the movie

Preston 23:22

That scene we had to talk about that. We had to talk about that because that is a fascinating thing. I couldn't believe it, frankly. I knew going into that scene specifically. Not necessarily the movie, but I knew going into that scene, that it wasn't gonna happen because I'd seen trailer shots of spider in that final battle or what. I didn't know it was a final battle, but you'd seen trailer shots of spider in that final battle, which had not happened yet. So I knew there was more spider to come. I knew he wasn't gonna die in that scene. But wow. The character choice to have Jake make the decision and say, I'm to go with Natis original plan, it totally makes sense that Naii who hates sky, people who has kind of originally low key, but over time, high key resented spider, for even being around at all. Like it makes total sense for her to be the one to say, we need to kill this kid. He's a threat. His existence is a threat. But then for Jake to be the one to turn around after getting captured and say. We need to do it, they're gonna reverse engineer it. They could totally take over the planet. And then for Spider to understand this needs to happen. He even says, I know it's time for me to go see a one now, but do you still love me? And that was, I mean, that's a really powerful moment regardless of, of what you think of their performances, regardless of, I mean, it's just a very, very powerful moment, I thought.

Carson 24:54

And Ty's arc with all this is also,

Preston 24:57

yes,

Carson 24:58

to the forefront of this movie too,

Preston 25:00

yes, she's given a lot to do compared to way of water.

Carson 25:05

and it's like, it's not only like, you know. One, the disagreements with Jake in the beginning of the movie. She's like, I'm just trying to grieve. Like I, you know, Jake's like diving for weapons on the bottom of the ocean interior's, just trying to like chill out and figure things out. And then I thought the whole symbolism with the arrows, with the tipped explosives and like, I know you won't ever give up your bow, but she sort of has to keep accepting the new levels of this conflict.

Preston 25:34

Yeah.

Carson 25:34

two, alright, this is my home, Jake. Like I'm not leaving my home. And then, you know, we get the whole motif of this family is our fortress, you know, she accepts that, but she loses her son. Next movie she's grieving. This battle seems hopeless. Like, I had to keep fighting. also there potentially is this shortcut where we could kill this kid. And that could buy us some time and we need time to figure out what to do. but the fact that like, she comes around and like they both agree, like there has to be another way. Like it if we, if we stoop to this low, who are we to judge Like,

Preston 26:16

And they both get to make that choice separately too. I like that as well. And I also like the imagery. Mm-hmm.

Carson 26:22

He's with him and she's by the river and Yeah.

Preston 26:25

Yeah,

Carson 26:25

good

Preston 26:25

I like the imagery of her kind of washing off the monk Kwan, makeup. She's washing. I mean, you get that shot that you, the same kind of the blood on your hands, imagery as they used it in way of water as well. Whenever NAA died and his blood was on Lo Ox hands, literally in, so Looch feels responsible for that, which is how we literally opened this movie is Nataya asking Loock, how did I die? And Loock trying to, to come to terms with the fact that it wasn't his fault that he didn't, that it, you know, it's not something he should bear the burden of. And his ARC's fantastic as well. But while we're talking about Natti, a lot of thematic great character stuff going on there. And also just some badass shit that she gets to do that she didn't get to do as much of in the way of water. She literally does the trench run. I mean, she's saving Jake and it's awesome. Like her infiltration in Bridgehead City is incredible. I loved that. That's maybe the best sequence of the movie for me, which is really saying something.'cause I loved all of it, but God, when she puts on the makeup and she's flying in and just the whole thing, you know, from the second she gets beyond their sensors, and she's in unfamiliar territory. We have not seen naii in this scenario. We've seen Jake with the humans. We've seen Jake get captured. We've seen him using machine guns, but Naii.

Carson 27:52

home field advantage.

Preston 27:53

Yeah. For the first time. And she's, you get this kind of, again, the first time that you've got a Navi writing an econ and going on a mission surrounded by a lot of, human made stuff, industrial, you know, environment all around her. And, man, it's fascinating and it's incredibly well done. I absolutely loved it. And I also thought it was interesting the way that, they even have the moment of the, the human soldiers kind of hitting on her when they think she's just a monk, Kwan,

Carson 28:25

yeah.

Preston 28:26

walking by and,

Carson 28:28

her to

Preston 28:29

yeah. Well, and it reinforces a lot of the, the themes of racism, obviously, and how racism and. Sexism kind of coincide in the real world in so many ways. And I thought that was, you know, obviously it's a moment that's kind of played for laughs in some ways. But I also just, I liked it from a thematic standpoint and it reinforces what they've been saying about, a lot of these themes and nati then obviously, holding ang hostage while Koic is also like having some drinking buddies, like that's cool too, that he's like qua and he is like, you get to see him sort of like, he kind of feels like he's one of them now and he is kind of enjoying being one of them. That's interesting. That whole sequence and then the action is unbelievable.

Carson 29:11

the, the bomb arrows too.

Preston 29:13

Uhhuh, she's using the explosives. Right.

Carson 29:16

fighting fire with fire, I dare say.

Preston 29:18

Awesome. It was really cool.

Carson 29:21

Did they bring up in this movie that metal corrupts the heart or something, yada, yada,

Preston 29:25

Yeah. They say the navi like when you touch it, it's corrupting.

Carson 29:31

so a again, that you have the fascinating dichotomy here of Ang and the whole scene of gore showing up with all the guns to their village. And like that whole thing of like, basically just like, screw it. We're going straight in nihilism. Let's watch the world burn. I don't really care what just we'll ride with you and use the weapons and we don't really care the consequences. I mean they literally have a suicide bomber

Preston 29:58

So cool.

Carson 29:59

blob guy

Preston 30:00

cool. And what a, this is just awesome, man. That's just such a cool way to introduce the Ash clan.

Carson 30:07

Without saying anything,

Preston 30:08

No. Yeah,

Carson 30:10

Oh, that's who they are.

Preston 30:11

Ong screams, I Am the Fire. And then she sends that arrow and lights the dude on fire. Man, what a moment. I mean, immediately, she steals every scene she's in. Cameron's talked about this, but it's bold to do, a 10, 11, 12 minute scene of just two people talking. And this is something that. I know Cameron's mentioned it, and I know that James Gunn mentioned something similar in Superman, because in Superman there's the interview scene with Clark and Lois and it's just them talking for a little over 10 minutes, I believe. No action. No, no spandex. You know, nothing crazy. This is a super hero movie, but you just get them talking and doing this kind of character dissection of the two of them in Superman. And it's similar in Fire and Ash because you, you've got Koic and Ong and this is kind of ONGs introduction and her backstory as well. And if Una Chaplin is not an incredible performer, that scene

Carson 31:19

that whole

Preston 31:20

might not work. Certainly doesn't work the way that it did. But she is so magnetic on the screen, she's so incredible. She's just, you want as much wrong as you can get. In this film, and she's fascinating. We've never seen an avi like this. The motion capture, performance capture technology is just unbelievable. With her specifically, she's so expressive and she's obviously talked about how she based a lot of what she did off of Zoe Sal's performances as nai, which she's incredible in this movie too, as we mentioned. But yeah, that scene is really, really special, special stuff. And I loved it.

Carson 31:59

Yeah. It's so fascinating watching, like so used to this whole family dynamic and then boom, like much she's like one of the only females of the entire clan. I'm, if not the only one. I, I had to rewatch the movie.

Preston 32:14

Maybe May, I don't know if she's the only one, but there's not many no kids. Yeah.

Carson 32:19

in their village. I mean, it's all just like, you know, middle aged goons, basically just ready to go on these war parties. And that whole thing too, the whole, where she shocks them with her, what's it called? I'm a bad

Preston 32:33

Guru.

Carson 32:34

forgetting what?

Preston 32:35

Her guru.

Carson 32:36

Like using that as, like sort of you could say using AWA as connection against, against their own

Preston 32:43

And then, you see how important that is to them because Loock has a sniper pointed at her and he is crying because he sees this dude's curu get chopped off. And then you've got

Carson 32:55

it's.

Preston 32:55

Koge saying that's worse than death to these people. Or Lyle says that I think,

Carson 33:00

Yeah, dude. And apparently, so I was telling you about that behind the scenes book

Preston 33:05

yeah.

Carson 33:06

Apparently she has, a dress like a ceremonial, like, a regal, dress that she'd wear on a throne or something that is made from the cutoff

Preston 33:21

I think I've seen that.

Carson 33:21

Supposedly it's supposed to be introduced in avatar four.

Preston 33:24

love to see that. Mm-hmm.

Carson 33:26

so like even more menacing that of what we've seen so far, like is gonna keep coming up. Fascinating characterization and like, man, like you really didn't ex like, like you said, that scene in the hut, you're like, oh, like I didn't expect your backstory story to be that. Like, not that your actions make sense, but like devastating. just see them go down this path and to see how it affects everybody. Especially like kiri too.'cause like you have basically awa haters on this side, and then you have Awas number one fan the other side. Awa and her are kind of beefing in this movie, like, I can't see through the forest. great mother. Like, come on, like, what do you want me to do? And I thought, I thought Keri's arc was beautiful in this movie, like

Preston 34:18

Mm-hmm.

Carson 34:18

last movie. It was like, oh, she's kind of a weirdo and like she's struggling to fit in and struggling to be confident in herself in this movie. It's like, I'm struggling to see my place in this and like, if I can't use this power, like what am I here for? Like, I don't understand. And I, you know, when go back and, the shahe of Terri's mom, right.

Preston 34:47

Yep.

Carson 34:48

to

Preston 34:48

Yep.

Carson 34:49

whole scene was fantastic

Preston 34:50

Yeah.

Carson 34:51

like kind of, um,

Preston 34:54

Telling her

Carson 34:54

like,

Preston 34:55

where she's from,

Carson 34:57

you're Anakin Skywalker.

Preston 34:59

which, yeah. She is, she is the Midians. Yeah. No, she's born of awa and that was something that, almost feel like we should have known. I mean, a lot of people knew, but as far as being like an exact biological clone of Grace's avatar, I feel like I should have known that because you look at Kiri now, like literally just looking at her physical design, she looks exact, her hair is different, but she looks exactly like Grace's avatar. She's got the same, what stuck out to me was she's got the nose, like the human nose that most

Carson 35:34

Yes.

Preston 35:35

of the other avatars even don't have. Yeah. And so, I was surprised but not surprised. I mean, I knew you knew that she kind of awa was, had something to do with her conception, and that she is this Anakin Skywalker figure and a lot of people don't. I do want to like go on a slow small. Make a, make a small point about Kiri because there are a lot of people that don't like Sigourney Weaver's performance or are not even really down for Sigourney Weaver playing a 14-year-old and while number one, I think you can tell, like, yeah, that's Sigourney Weaver. But on the other hand, I think like Carrie just kind of is an old soul and that is important I think, to her character. She's not necessarily, yeah, she's like one of the other kids, but she's not necess,

Carson 36:25

seeker.

Preston 36:26

no. Yeah.

Carson 36:28

She wants to go chill and

Preston 36:29

Mm-hmm.

Carson 36:30

contemplate philosophy, like, come on guys. Like she's

Preston 36:32

Yeah, she's not immature. She's not. And there are plenty of kids in the real world who are like that, who are not immature. Meanwhile, you do have a lot of reminders in these movies that they are kids. And this is another thing that Cameron has talked about, is that these are kids. That's why you've got spider dancing like a hooligan, you know, multiple times in the background of scenes and goofing off. Cameron makes it a point to not necessarily have these kids acting as adult characters despite the fact that they are 14, 15 years old. They're 14 and 15 years old, and they make it a point to establish that and show it with all of these characters. And I really appreciate that because, you know, when you do think about the movies that you've seen, with action movies, with characters of that age, a lot of times they are just kind of playing grownups, you know, and it's refreshing to have, kids that are kids

Carson 37:30

adult writing kid. And that also plays into Loock in this movie too, of like, I would say even more than last movie, he had to like grow up his dad has to like see him as an equal. I need my partner by my side. I can't remember what the specific line is

Preston 37:49

wing man.

Carson 37:50

Wingman, I need my wingman. Like basically acknowledging like we go from the scene where he takes, he doesn't have his comms on and the win trader flying around like an idiot could have died, could have lost his sisters. of things could have happened there, but to then his confidence of going into battle with his dad at the end, like was a really, it was like sad.'cause it's like, I don't want this kid to be a trained soldier, but like the way that he connects with his dad. Like we had the moment, obviously the, like one of the most beautiful moments of the last movie or the whole saga is when like, I see you

Preston 38:30

Yeah.

Carson 38:30

picon coming up from escaping the ship. But then, I seen some people that are like frustrated that like their dynamic wasn't immediately like perfect.

Preston 38:42

Right.

Carson 38:42

Like, it wasn't immediately like, oh,

Preston 38:44

it's a good reflection that healing is not linear, number one and number two, a lot of the reason I think that Jake kind of has this animosity toward Looc is that. Lo Hawk is Jake, and Jake has a lot of self, hate built up, it feels like over the course of the three films. And I think he sees,

Carson 39:10

his older brother.

Preston 39:12

Yeah.

Carson 39:12

inadequate

Preston 39:13

Mm-hmm.

Carson 39:13

so is Loock.

Preston 39:15

And he's,

Carson 39:15

Naum was like the groomed perfect, older Jake Soly brother. Like, this is the golden child.

Preston 39:21

yeah,

Carson 39:21

you know, he's gonna be the guy.

Preston 39:24

they mirror each other in a lot of ways. Loock and Jake. And I think Jake, I think he resents these parts of himself that he then sees in Loock and a lot of loach's, kind of foolhardy quick to jump into action. You know, not really thinking things out. Like these are elements of Jake that he doesn't like about himself, that he didn't like about himself, that he feels maybe he's grown out of in a lot, in some ways. And so when he sees this stuff in Loock, he, he doesn't like it. He's trying to train it out of him, but. He doesn't really know how to empathetically be a father in a lot of ways. And that's another thing that he's sort of still learning and, and especially when it comes to loock reflecting a lot of these traits. And I really, I, I love their dynamic. I thought it was great throughout both films. I think it's the core of way of water, but yeah, the payoff is, is great.

Carson 40:19

'cause you have the koon and he finally acknowledges that like, hey, you did this. I didn't do this you know, basically he went against, everybody's like, dude, this guy's an outcast. Don't do this, don't do this. He gets the kids on board and they make a stand in the Koon council to be like, we have to fight.

Preston 40:37

Like a TikTok trend. He goes, I am outcast.

Carson 40:41

so, um,

Preston 40:45

They all have to say it individually.

Carson 40:47

Yeah.

Preston 40:48

I think it's funny because like one of'em is like, he speaks for, uh, UNG, I think is the name of the little one. He's like, then I and my brother are outcast, or I and UNG are Outcast and then ung the younger one, or Roso is the Rock. I don't know how to say his name'cause they've never actually pronounced it in the film, but then he does it too, and it's like, well we, he just, he just did that, but Okay. Yeah. Cast. That's great.

Carson 41:16

but so the payoff of that, of like, Jake witnessing that and seeing like. His own son, like basically impacts everything, I think makes him like empathize with him and see what he's trying to do and like understands all of his emotions by that point, which is really sweet.

Preston 41:34

Mm-hmm.

Lo'ak's Breaking Point

Carson 41:35

and then you have Loock who you know, is in his little emo emo arc, this movie, which I did not see that scene coming.'Cause I was in the theater and there was kids in there and I was like, oh shit,

Preston 41:51

This is a mature movie. This is not your Marvel, PG 13. This is some real stuff going on. This has a, I mean, it's a, he's a 14-year-old, give or take,

Carson 42:01

yes.

Preston 42:02

with a gun to his head.

Carson 42:04

Yep.

Preston 42:04

it's that that scene was really, really moving to me. I think Brit, Dalton is like an unsung hero of these two films. I really do.

Carson 42:12

a

Preston 42:12

I don't see him talked about near enough, and I really wish that there was more, I mean, I think that all of the kids do a really good job, but I think he's clearly the standout,

Carson 42:21

Yeah.

Preston 42:21

Loock.

Carson 42:22

and obviously what Sigourney is doing with

Preston 42:25

Right, right.

Carson 42:25

favorite two of the kids.

Preston 42:27

Yeah, but I meant as the child actor who is a child,

Carson 42:31

a hundred

Preston 42:32

I don't even know what else Britton Dalton's done, to be quite honest, what he is been in. And I just think he, he really should get more due. And I thought he was so good in that scene. Man. I was just moved. Because I think, and I think that scene resonates with maybe more people, than would be willing to, to speak about. I think, a lot of us, myself included, I will say, have been like a depressed, confused 14-year-old who probably had it pretty good, but like didn't know it at the time because there's so many hormones going on and you don't know what's going on. And in Loach's position, he is got this strife with his father that's built up. And then his father, essentially after Loock, has begun to move past n Nat Tam's death. Right. When he, you feel like he's begun to kind of move past it. Or at the very least, you know, has a distraction in this whole Ayaan saga. Going through then his own dad implicitly says that Loock is at fault for his brother's death. And his immediate reaction is. Just to run away and he ends up with a gun to his head. And man, I mean, talk about a scene that, is moving in a lot of ways it's moving to see a kid go through that, and, and feel those emotions,

Carson 43:46

up for

Preston 43:47

right?

Carson 43:47

the other kids showing up for him was really impactful for me of like, stay in this

Preston 43:51

Mm-hmm.

Carson 43:51

Like,

Preston 43:52

And I really like.

Carson 43:53

got me like.

Avatar’s Future and Earthbound Stakes

Preston 43:54

Bailey Bass as Reya. His, his little girlfriend. I really like her too. I think she's another unsung hero of these two films. I really like her and I hope we get to see more of their relationship in the future. But talk about a scene that doesn't work, without performance captured technology being truly spectacular, you wouldn't feel that or you wouldn't and, and again, or with, without Great child acting by Brit Dalton because he doesn't really, he has his narration, I think, but he doesn't really say anything and he is just like, got this heavy breathing and then he is just throws the gun aside. And he is, he is like whimpering and crying and ooh, it just, it pulls you in and it's not a scene that, I don't even know if that scene would've worked in 2009 with the first avatar, with the technology as good as it was and as as good as it holds up. I don't know. I mean that, that really. That was a fantastic scene. And it doesn't work if every single facial movement is not being detected. And if, the actor isn't, isn't really, really, really solid. And I thought he was more than solid. And yeah, I just loved that and I'm excited to see he was the narrator for this one. I'm gonna use this maybe as a little segue. He was the narrator for this one. Sigourney Weaver has said in an interview, I don't know if she was supposed to or not, that she is the narrator for Avatar four. I am of the opinion that Avatar four and five are going to happen no matter what. I hope James Cameron is who directs them. I think it will be. But I think the way that Marvel and Star Wars are currently performing, I guess we'll see how Doomsday fares later this year or in one year actually. Well, it's this year. I think Disney needs a billion where it can get a billion and avatar, it can get a billion, especially if we wait a little bit longer. I hope it's James Cameron. It would be crazy to think of a, an avatar directed by not James Cameron, but I think that Disney is not gonna be able to say no knowing that those two scripts are written and that

Carson 45:56

I've

Preston 45:57

they're

Carson 45:58

I

Preston 45:58

Yeah, yeah.

Carson 45:59

polishing them and rewriting them and this a whole project kicked off with the scripts and so

Preston 46:06

Right. And in theory, on their original writing, they originally wrote Fire and Ash in way of water as one script, which would make these next two, avatar three and four

Carson 46:18

way of water and fire and ash were one script, and then they pivoted what was avatar three to be avatar four,

Preston 46:27

Right, and then Four to be five, but meaning the next two would not be, in a sense, a duology maybe. I mean, I'm sure obviously they

Carson 46:38

Oh, oh, yes,

Preston 46:39

maybe not like a part one and part two feel the way you get with these two.

Carson 46:42

yes, I do think they will. Because there's gonna be a four year gap now in terms of when the next release date is. If all things keep moving forward, which I think they will. I think Cameron's a bit addicted to this in a good way. I think he loves it too much to let it go. As much as like wants to do other projects,

Preston 47:03

It does tease a lot in the media. He's like, I don't know. We'll see. This may be the last one. There's a lot of that.

Carson 47:09

No, but then you watch every interview with him, he is like, I'd love the Avatar family. Like, I keep doing this because we employ like half a village to like so many people work on these movies.

Preston 47:19

Yeah.

Carson 47:19

And I think he likes that about it and likes the community aspect of it Yeah, like obviously I think this wasn't as successful as way of water, but like. It's still

Preston 47:32

Still kicking.

Carson 47:33

successful. Like, like let's, let's be clear. Gatherer movie already almost at 1.4 billion. I think it is

Preston 47:40

Yeah,

Carson 47:41

is insanity

Preston 47:42

right.

Carson 47:43

and the fact that the last three movies have gross, like over$5 billion or something.

Preston 47:50

Oh, I think they've hit six as a trilogy. All three

Carson 47:55

and

Preston 47:55

combined.

Carson 47:55

not to mention like Disney will do this if not for the amazing grosses that these movies have done alone. The theme park, long-term potential there. Like they can't pass that up.

Preston 48:09

And frontiers of Pandora. The video game, frontiers of Pandora. I'll go on a quick nerd about that because I just finished the main story of that. That's getting like a resurgence of popularity right now. I don't know if you're aware of that, but with the, which I haven't even played.

Carson 48:24

started playing it. Did I tell you?

Preston 48:26

No, you didn't. How do you like it?

Carson 48:28

I, so I started playing and I changed it to the third person view,

Preston 48:31

Yep.

Carson 48:32

released

Preston 48:32

a big reason that everybody has, that it's resurged in popularity two years after the launch date is because they. Made third person and then they've got this fire and ash, tie in DLC, which I have not played that yet. I just finished the main story. But the game's great and it's currently really, really po I think it hit a record on Steam for the amount of players that it had, playing, which was, that's kind of incredible. Two years after release to break that record that you hit. So this is a popular franchise. They're going to make more of them. What do you want to see, or what do you expect to see? I guess we've kind of touched on a little bit, but I think going to Earth is something that is a given that's gonna happen

Carson 49:13

Yes.

Preston 49:14

now. There's a six year cryo journey to get to Earth. So narratively, there's some interesting stuff that can happen if we do send one or multiple characters to Earth, because there's a six year in universe, time span that's gonna be taken up by just the, the travel of going. So what does that do for the other characters? There's a lot of interesting stuff there.

Carson 49:36

And we also, I believe, reading the Behind the Scenes book, from this movie, originally an avatar won, there was a lot more about the head of the RDA, like the actual

Preston 49:49

The chairman gets a mention in this one.

Carson 49:52

And so he was booted. Avatar four, I believe. So I think we're gonna get a lot more of the earth perspective of what they are trying to accomplish. Sort of the e more villains of the overall structural system, I'm assuming of what, you know, the overall deal that they're trying to get all these people. I think we're gonna see, I think we're gonna see next movie people start to move to Pandora. I think that's gonna be a thing. Like I think there's gonna be like apartments in like little cities and stuff. Like people moving to Pandora and

Preston 50:25

just colonization. Yeah.

Carson 50:27

cont. Yeah, just continuing and like taking over more land. I think we're gonna see, we're gonna have to see like what the plan is going to be there's no backing down now. Like you have to really defeat the RDA in a way. And obviously I think there's gonna be an interesting thing of like when they go to earth, All these civilians and stuff it's gonna be fascinating. Like dealing with like, always been on our planet and our people have been dying, but if we go there and start shooting things up, other people are gonna be dying. And what are we gonna do? It's just like the devastation of war.

Preston 51:09

Yeah.

Carson 51:09

I think Avatar four is gonna be, I don't know what's gonna happen. I think there's gonna be a space battle. It could be a space battle

Preston 51:15

would be cool.

Carson 51:16

There

Preston 51:17

They could do a lot. There's it's infinite possibilities, and that's what I love about this franchise and also because it was built for the big screen. So many franchises nowadays are adaptations or are sequels of something that was made a long time ago. And, avatar is built for the big screen and it's built for the big screen now, you know, the, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, DC Game of Thrones. I'm talking like the biggest franchises that we have are by and large, have source material of their own. Even Star Wars is a sequel or just trying to build out a universe that was originally built for the big screen in the late seventies and early eighties. Avatar is built for the big screen. It's built for the big screen now, and it's built for the big screen in the modern era. And that's what I love about it so much. And it brings infinite possibilities because of that, in terms of what they can do. And so Avatar four of note is the one that, that, Cameron has said. There were no notes on this script from, from the upper, from the heads at Disney. Basically, he turned in the script and they said, I, what is it? I don't want to like misquote.

Carson 52:28

They just said, holy shit

Preston 52:29

yeah, that's what I thought. And, I mean that certainly makes you think they're gonna make it. Hopefully it's Cameron that makes it, but it's like, who, how would they not make it if that was their one note?

Carson 52:40

Yeah. No, and think, I do think the whole theme of this overall thing is going to be just the coexistence and peaceful lifestyle of interacting with nature and like kind of finding your true purpose within your tribe. And I do think there's going to be whether people have speculated that Kiri is going to, you know, kind of like spread a watts earth or the earth is gonna be sort of. Re bloomed because Earth is, like Earth is dying. Like

Preston 53:10

Right?

Carson 53:11

to be fascinating. Like, I think the atmosphere of Earth is going to be literally breaking down. Like by Avatar five, I wouldn't be surprised if they're literally caravaning humans too. like

Preston 53:22

Mm.

Carson 53:23

I think that is an end game in terms of the RDA trying to like, I mean they even say it as much as like, avatar. This is going to be our new home. Like Earth is dying.

Preston 53:31

Yeah.

Carson 53:31

so I

Preston 53:32

Yeah.

Carson 53:32

going to accelerate a lot more. And I ultimately think this ends with some sort of like resolution kind of solar punk future where Earth gets rejuvenated somehow. And on both Pandora Earth, the Navi and humans coexist as I think where this is going.

Preston 53:52

That would be interesting. I would be surprised to see Navi coexisting with humans on earth. I could see humans coexisting with Navi on Pandora. I mean, obviously we've seen that to an extent that could happen.

Carson 54:05

They could, they could also set it up. That earth becomes the ultimate battle zone we take the fight to them, but there's no one left on earth, but the RDA stronghold or something, and fight could be there and Earth gets destroyed. And then here we

Preston 54:23

I am interested to see the RDA chairman. I wanna see that KO is a fantastic villain. I think it's also one of those things of like when they reveal that Vader is working for Palpatine the whole time, you know, things of that nature. I would love to see the RDA chairman and get more of him and less of General Ardmore or, you know, yeah.

Carson 54:48

the

Preston 54:48

don't hate her, but like,

Carson 54:49

Right.

Preston 54:50

yeah, he comes back in this one too, which was interesting.

Carson 54:53

he's the son of the chairman. Do you remember that being officially name dropped or

Preston 54:56

I don't remember,

Carson 54:57

somebody important?

Preston 54:59

I don't remember if he is the son, but I know that he's the one who kind of name drops him in fire. And Ash, he's the one that's like,

Carson 55:05

Yes.

Preston 55:05

oh, you want me to call the chairman? Want me to do that? Like, you know, as, as a threat to Ardmore. Yeah, I do wanna see that because I wanna flesh out and I think we will if we, especially if we go to Earth and we kind of bring more of that in.

Carson 55:18

The chairman laying out the entire plan to Jake.

Preston 55:21

Yeah.

Carson 55:22

have this confrontation with the chairman. It's classic, like, you're gonna be in the chairman's office and you're gonna

Preston 55:26

Yeah.

Carson 55:26

All of his stuff on the wall or whatever he is got, maybe he

Preston 55:29

And in that case, and in that case kind of maybe mirroring the original Star Wars trilogy, perhaps there is room for a quat, redemption arc where, he does team up with Jake in the end, maybe, whether it's for spider or, and how do the quan fit into all of this, and are they gonna bring. The snow Pandora into this. I would love to see that. I would love to see, I was looking at some fan art, like more purple, because originally the navi were gonna be purple. And so I think it would be interesting to bring in the snow because you've got, obviously the forest people are blue, and then you've got the Met Caina, the ocean people kind of have a more greenish tint.

Carson 56:08

Mm-hmm.

Preston 56:08

the ash people are like almost gray. Obviously they have paint over it, but even then they're not very blue. If the snow people are like a little more purple, a little more indigo tinted. And, if they're, I saw some art that they were like big and bulky and like, because they're like, need natural insulation and they weren't like fat, but they were really large. And just muscular. I think that would be interesting too.

Carson 56:32

mammoth.

Preston 56:32

Yeah. Yeah. Let's,

Carson 56:33

wooly mammoth immediately.

Preston 56:35

need the snow. I, I would be interested in seeing the desert. I don't, I lot of these movies. Is simple. And there's some simplistic aspects of these movies that I really like in terms of like, yeah, what did the snow Navi look like? I would like to see that. I would be interested to see what does,

Carson 56:51

it.

Preston 56:51

what does it look like that that's cool. You know, there's some simplistic aspects of these movies that I like and also I think you can get really deep with them as well. And flesh'em out plenty. But I think part of the reason they've been so successful is, some of those simplistic aspects that they don't stray away from. They know, you know, Cameron understands romance, Cameron understands action, and he just goes balls to the wall with both of those two things. And those are two things that can really pull in, any audience member. And I think that's why they've been so successful that coupled with groundbreaking technology.

Carson 57:24

I need an econ going through a fancy restaurant on earth. The last fancy restaurant left, and all these people are just dosing fricking the whale brainstem

Preston 57:37

Yeah, the golden,

Carson 57:38

and na Teri flies in and all their stupid faces get blown up by,

Preston 57:45

that would be great. That would be great. There's just so much more that they can do with this universe and

Carson 57:50

Yes.

Preston 57:51

It's one of those things where, as much as I love the three films we've gotten, I also really want to see more because I loved everything they introduced and I loved when they introduced it. I loved when they introduced the Met Caina and the Sea People. I loved when they introduced the Ash people. I love when they introduce even more of the RDA and the background of it I just love when they introduce new things and it makes you really want to see more. It makes you wanna see, okay, well what does it look like when they do this? What about when they do go back to earth? What about,

Carson 58:21

that they have an end point. They know where they want this story to end, which I think precious and should be defended and like, that's awesome. That like they've had this goal to end the saga a certain way,

Preston 58:33

yeah.

Final Predictions and Wrap Up

Carson 58:33

Whatever it is, and they're just working towards this goal now of ending it, it feels, like instead of a thing that just has endless movies, it feels like breaking bad, going to the end of its run with intention and could be some of the best stuff as yet to come.

Preston 58:48

Yeah,

Carson 58:50

as crazy It is to say like, especially the second movie for me is probably still my favorite.

Preston 58:57

I would agree.

Carson 58:59

we've had some really high highs and most of these movies have been high highs for me. Talk about the potential of what's coming in four and five is really exciting. One last thing I wanted to mention is with Spider being such a big deal for this franchise now, I seen some people speculating that he could ultimately betray the Soly family. this movie makes me think that that will not happen anymore. What do you think spider's arc is gonna continue to be and do you think they continue to emphasize the whole, the air breather thing or where do you think he's going?

Preston 59:36

I think, the kiss with him and Keri was pretty significant as far as building towards the future films, because I don't spider. Spider will not betray the soles. I do not think that will happen. I think if that was gonna happen, it would've by now.

Carson 59:53

I mean, he connected with, he's one

Preston 59:55

he's one of the people, it's the big ending. Yeah. He is Navi again now for all intents and purposes. And so yeah, I don't think any of that, and I don't see him betraying the soles, but I don't know. And I still think there may be room, depending on how they handle other villains, depending on how they handle other, antagonists of the saga. Whether it is bringing in the RDA chairman or, maybe making Ong a little bit more at the forefront. I think there may be room for a quart redemption. I don't know if they'll do it. If I do, I think it may be kind of like. Vader's redemption, at the end of Return of the Jedi, yeah. Where it is just like his final act and it kills him to do it, or he dies in the process. I don't think Quartz gets a happy ending in any case, but I think there may be room for a quart redemption because Spider will not betray. The solely spider is not gonna switch sides like that.

Carson 1:00:54

Yep.

Preston 1:00:54

I could see it, I could see it with Koic. I don't know if it will. I do think that is kind of the core of these movies is Kotch versus Jake. But again, if we do expand things out in a lot of ways, whether that's going to Earth bringing in other villains, in whatever way, I don't know. But if we expand things out a little bit more, I think there becomes more room for quart to switch sides because someone will fill that quart shaped hole, in the narrative. So, and be all of that because spider's not switching.

Carson 1:01:31

Yes. hate to even bring this up. Does Jake or Nati die in four and five?

Preston 1:01:39

I think, yes, I kind of thought they were gonna die in this one.

Carson 1:01:42

I did too. I.

Preston 1:01:43

I was a little surprised that neither of them did. I thought Jake would, especially the first time around, I was waiting for it and they survived and I loved their ending where they got to be happy together. You see Na, Teri smile. She didn't get to do that much. I don't know.

Carson 1:01:57

Jake is executed, man, what if this whole thing is

Preston 1:02:00

that would be.

Carson 1:02:00

preview of like, he almost was executed like,

Preston 1:02:03

Yeah,

Carson 1:02:04

death squad. Like what if he's executed on Earth in front of his family and like, that has to rally everybody

Preston 1:02:12

I would be really, he becomes like a martyr symbol.

Carson 1:02:16

Bet you there's,

Preston 1:02:17

something.

Carson 1:02:17

that like, are protesting it. I bet there's gonna be like, some humans are like, like investigating the RDA,

Preston 1:02:24

Well, that's, that's sort of the thing with these movies is they're not afraid to kill off characters. You know? I mean, grace dies in the first one. Natam dies in the second one, and then in this one, maybe not as large of a character as Grace or Natam, but again, Ronald dies as does.

Carson 1:02:44

The other sibling,

Preston 1:02:45

of the kids, I know how to say ung. I don't know how to say

Carson 1:02:47

the,

Preston 1:02:48

it's R-O-T-X-O.

Carson 1:02:51

Just kind of gets shot then he falls

Preston 1:02:53

I know,

Carson 1:02:54

I'm just like,

Preston 1:02:55

yeah. There he goes. I know, I would, that's another thing I would've liked a little bit. It would've been nice to see maybe some of their family reacting to that, but yeah, I don't know. I, I am outcast and he is in the end. But these movies aren't afraid to kill people off, you know, and I think that's,

Carson 1:03:13

scared.

Preston 1:03:15

could happen. And I like that about these movies. You know, I like that we get some stakes. We get to actually get some, we get to feel something in the same year in which we're getting Steve Rogers, captain America coming back and, and Robert Downey Jr. Playing Dr. Doom. I mean, it's nice to know that some things can be final, in this world. And so I think, yeah, I like that about these movies, but it also, it makes you scared for the future. I do think that either Jake or Nate Teri or both, will die. And whether it's in four or five, I don't know. I would say five. And then maybe you get like an epilogue with Loock and Reya, older Kiri and Spider older.

Carson 1:03:56

It would be beautiful if it ended in the four. Hypothetically, interior stays live, Jake dies and it nati finally, like there's like a new home tree that they find the

Preston 1:04:05

Hmm.

Carson 1:04:06

gets to, like return home to or

Preston 1:04:07

That would be cool. Yeah.

Carson 1:04:09

humans like a, an overall home tree for the new Pandora

Preston 1:04:13

Yeah, I would, spider might not live. I mean, they've teased his death multiple times, so who knows? Anything could happen.

Carson 1:04:22

happens? And KO changes because spider dies.

Preston 1:04:27

I could see that. I could totally see that. I could see that more than any other, you know, possibility spider dies and it kind of.

Carson 1:04:34

two, if two dies, we riot at

Preston 1:04:37

Give tuk a gun, give tuk a gun. Give tka rocket launcher. Give tuk a bazooka. I don't want her to die. I want her to be armed. I want her to be like, like

Carson 1:04:46

going to be,

Preston 1:04:47

she's gonna be,

Carson 1:04:48

gonna be, the

Preston 1:04:49

She's fierce. She needs to be, she needs, she's got that nati, she's got that nati fierce fierceness in her. And I, I wanna see it. I wanna see two grown badass warrior, because like, I don't know, she's just this cute little good in these two, but I'm like,

Carson 1:05:07

gonna be at least a four to five year time. What do you think?

Preston 1:05:10

they have to at this point. These actors are old. I mean, the actress who plays t she's 18 now, I believe. So you're getting to a point where these are gonna have to be. Teenagers, or at the very least young adults. I mean, obviously they can move the age around, but there's a reason they cast them at the age that they did. And you have Sigourney playing Kiri and that's a whole other, whole other thing. But, so they can move the age around where they want it. But yeah, I mean, I think unless the script demands it, which we know that they're written and good and been worked on for a long time, but unless the script demands that they be a certain age, if they take longer to make these films, maybe they are in their twenties by the time they're, they're out. And maybe that's just where they put their characters. Who knows? Especially again, also if you've got some characters going on a six year cryo trip to Earth and some characters not going on a six year cryo trip to Earth, you know, do Jake and Nati get sent to Earth or adults get sent to Earth and the kids stay, or some of the kids who knows the, the. That's where all the, the possi, the possibilities are so exciting to me.

Carson 1:06:21

The kids are gonna sneak on the ship and then they're gonna wake up and like

Preston 1:06:25

This kid nee. But how are the kids gonna sneak on the ship and then put themselves in a cryo chamber?

Carson 1:06:30

Yeah, there's,

Preston 1:06:33

I don't know, man. That's another thing that's interesting to me though. That's kind of one of my theories,

Carson 1:06:38

they're gonna go, uncle Norm, I need you to, I on the down low, I need you to put us in

Preston 1:06:43

Uncle Norm.

Carson 1:06:44

and not tell my dad

Preston 1:06:45

Uncle Norm, who has Navi, children with a Navi wife, not shown in the movies, but is in the books. Look in your book. I saw a photo. I don't own the book, but you should look in that book. Look at Norm's page. In that book, you'll see he has Navi kids. Which is like, hell yeah. Norm. Good for you. I think one of my theories though, going into Fire and Ash. Was the possibility of, Jake and or Nati getting sent to Earth while the kids grow up. And then I don't know how that, but that's just, I, that would be a really interesting, I think, narrative thing that you can do with the six year cryo jump to get there. 12 there and back.

Carson 1:07:35

The

Preston 1:07:35

Um,

Carson 1:07:36

a, a two front war it very much could be that the kids are on fighting for Pandora and Jake and a Teri go and fight for Earth.

Preston 1:07:45

yeah.

Carson 1:07:45

But I do think there's got, they got a rally, like all we've seen so far is like, yes, they've rallied like clans nearby, but like there's gotta be like, we gotta put out a global message here. Like

Preston 1:07:55

The snow, the snow people. I want the frost navi or the snow, whatever they call'em, they'll come up with something. The polar na.

Carson 1:08:03

Because these battles have been big, but we, I want to see, like, I wanna see like a big battle with thousands of Navi troops.

Preston 1:08:13

Yeah. Well, and you've got it. It's something that I think Cameron could do, obviously, and I he would probably like to do. And you've also got, it kind of reminds me of some battles in Star Wars that are happening on multiple fronts at the same time, multiple planets at the same time. And you get this feeling of scale, of galaxy wide scale,

Carson 1:08:32

cutting between the

Preston 1:08:33

right. And I think you could do something like that in Avatar really easily. You gotta have a lot of characters to do that. But they've fleshed out so many at this point that if you split'em up the right way could totally be done, including earth. So who knows? Last thoughts, about this movie, about this trilogy, where we're going? Is there anything we've talked about that we wanna mention? Before we hop off Carson?

Carson 1:09:00

No, I am just jazzed for the future of Pandora. I do think they're gonna complete the saga. I think it'd be dumb not to. And he's even said as much that if they don't, but they will. But if they don't, they'll have a press conference and say

Preston 1:09:15

That's the most James Cameron thing to say too. Just like, ah, we'll have a press cover. No, you won't. You're making the movies. That's something you say if you know you're making the movies,

Carson 1:09:23

overall, I think this was another strong chapter of the saga. It wasn't as polished or perfect as I felt number two was, but I do think they had. More time to kind of revolve and reshape that movie into what it was. I feel like Fire and Ash, being that they had to film these back to back and sprint to meet the aging of the kids, especially Spider, it's kind of in the awkward stage of production it feels like, for

Preston 1:09:49

Especially being born as the same script and sold as not the same script.

Carson 1:09:56

I think it said in the book, 2017 through 2019 was the filming of both these movies, but then they had to do more stuff with Spider, during the pandemic and other things.

Preston 1:10:06

Yeah.

Carson 1:10:06

complicated different aspects. You know, but again, a lot of the scenes that we brought up, like really strong characterization, Jake Naii almost sacrificing Spider KO's whole arc, ang being introduced. The kids all have pretty, really good distinct arcs. The overall expansion of like the relationship with Pandora and Awa is, is deepened, I would say in this movie, Koons Fighting, which we didn't even get to mention in front of a super fiery

Preston 1:10:38

out Ayaan is kind of small.

Carson 1:10:42

Yeah. When the

Preston 1:10:44

didn't know that.

Carson 1:10:45

goes down, like, oh, it's like, wow, you're, you're kind of like, you could be that thing's calf man. Like, you're like tiny

Preston 1:10:53

Yes, matriarch.

Carson 1:10:54

which is hilarious. wearing a nose ring, You know, they got fashion

Preston 1:11:00

They do. They're adorned tar uch coming back.

Carson 1:11:06

Uh, we didn't even

Preston 1:11:07

Didn't mention that. Really cool callback though, to the first film.

Carson 1:11:11

Yeah. And good kind of arc with Jake, kind of like reluctantly having to do it, but

Preston 1:11:17

Mm-hmm.

Carson 1:11:17

I think the characterization of it worked really well in this movie and yeah, the music was phenomenal

Preston 1:11:25

Yeah. Simon Franklin really did a great job picking up

Carson 1:11:28

yeah.

Preston 1:11:29

James Horner, who passed away aft in between the first and the second film.

Carson 1:11:34

the reins, and created some really beautiful

Preston 1:11:37

beat when, when Nati or when Ong, like I think it's when she takes over Koi. When she attaches her Kru to Koi in the woods. And there's a piano beat of just like. It's so haunting. It's like, it's like a horror score. It's so cool though. I love that. I just had to mention that.'cause I've been thinking about, I think about it every single time that I've seen the movie, which is four times now is in the middle and it's, oh, it's awesome. It's awesome. It's just, it's so cool.

Carson 1:12:08

Yeah,

Preston 1:12:08

yeah,

Carson 1:12:08

percent.

Preston 1:12:09

love what he did, Franklin.

Carson 1:12:11

this movie is gorgeous, obviously. 10 outta 10 for me. I am, you'll see me seated at the next one, I cannot wait to own this movie and own the trilogy and rewatch it a million different times.

Preston 1:12:24

Yeah,

Carson 1:12:26

but yeah, this has been a, again, like I said, like it's probably not like all of these are like 9.5 to 10 outta tens from me. So like

Preston 1:12:34

I agree.

Carson 1:12:34

say it's like my lowest of the trilogy, it's still as you've heard over the last hour, we still have so much to talk about with it'cause it's so good.

Preston 1:12:42

Yeah.

Carson 1:12:42

Would you agree? What are your final thoughts on this and moving forward with the whole saga.

Preston 1:12:47

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I loved it. I really, really loved it, and I am fascinated in all the directions that this saga could go in the future. And I'm, I'm ready. I'm ready for, ready for whatever's to come. Especially again, as I've played this video game, I am just even more hooked than I was, and I was already known to be the avatar guy amongst many of my friends. And so I love, I just, I love this franchise. I love everything, about it, to be quite honest. And, yeah, it was really special to get to see this in theaters, you know, to see it in multiple different formats in IMEX 3D. I'll treasure those memories and I'll treasure the film itself for a long time because I've looked forward to this film. Uh, for, for a while. And I'm excited that it is here. And I'm, like you said, I'm excited to own it. And, yeah, just, really loved it. And I'm excited for the future of the franchise because there are so many ways now we wait, hopefully just until 2029. I don't know though. I don't have much faith in them being on schedule for that.

Carson 1:13:54

Oh no.

Preston 1:13:55

I guess we'll see. That's the one thing that he said,

Carson 1:13:58

because 2030 is not a real year. It doesn't exist. Sorry.

Preston 1:14:02

At this, I'm gonna be showing my own kids avatar four and five in the theaters at this rate. I don't even have kids for the record, for any listeners. That's the joke here. Nor am I married, but yeah, no, great movie. Loved it. Excited. I will at some point be seeing it for a fifth time in theaters. I'm planning on that and excited for it. Also before we wrap up, we do have to give a shout out to our dear friend Edgar Ortega. The reason this episode is coming out, so many weeks after the film came out is because originally due to some scheduling conflicts and the way that life was. Carson, you were unable to originally host a review with me. And so our friend Edgar came in and we had a long episode recorded. It was about 45, 50 minutes. His wifi gave out. He had bad wifi, but shout out to Edgar, regardless of his wifi, even if Big wifi tries to silence us, because this is now the second time, that we've, that the first time on Solly pod. But the second time that amongst our friend group, wifi issues have plagued an avatar related podcast. When Way of Water came out, I was invited to go on a friend's podcast and my wifi was, not doing too hot and I couldn't join, and they ended up having to record without me. So we lost Edgar's tapes as well. This time around. So big wifi is out there trying to, trying to take us down. Big wifi, probably not listening to this episode, to be quite honest. Let's be honest.

Carson 1:15:32

someday. We will release the Edgar cut at some point in time.

Preston 1:15:36

We will try,

Carson 1:15:37

our Patreon. And if you can unencrypt the the corrupted file,

Preston 1:15:42

Yeah. If you can figure out how to, how to do all that. But, um, yeah, shout out to Edgar. Appreciate him at the very least. I really enjoyed just talking Avatar, for 45 minutes with him, and I hadn't talked to him in a while, so it was good to catch up with him, in any case. But yeah, sad that episode did not come out, but we got to do a longer one and kind of a retrospective on the whole franchise. As it is now, it's not just two films. It's a whole franchise now, and it's a whole trilogy with more to come. So, yeah. Excited for everything in the future for this franchise. That wraps it up. So if you're listening to this episode, make sure that you like and subscribe to our show. We are available wherever you're listening to podcasts. We are available. Check us out on social media at Z Pod. We have videos on there that we share of every episode, and we would love for you to join us on there and join in some of the discussions that we've had. You can check out our prior episodes and I'm excited for the future. And it's crazy because Carson, at the end of every episode since we've revamped this podcast, we've kind of been like avatar's coming. We're gonna do an avatar episode soon. And now we can't say that

Carson 1:16:47

Nothing to look forward to

Preston 1:16:49

there's nothing to look for. Everything is terrible. Zoll Pod will not be any good for the foreseeable future because avatar's over and we're sad about it. Now we'll be back with more episodes. We've got more coming in. We have, we have multiple ideas honestly, that we didn't even get around to doing. So we've got stuff in the can that we're ready to do. Maybe Edgar can join us for one of those. It's only right if he, if his WiFi's better, use Google Chrome next time, Edgar. Anyways, on that note, we gonna call it, I've, I, Preston Moore signing off for Preston and Carson. Terrell. Follow us on social media like we said, and we will see you next time. And we will see you at the movies. See Ko.