E018 Jack of All Trades vs Master of One

Passionately Wrong Podcast Episode E018

Jack of All Trades vs. Master of One

Key takeaway: You may think what you trained to do in school is what makes you successful in your career. But the longer you work, the more important becomes your ability to handle variability and add value beyond your core job. Your attitude can make a big difference in whether you are seen as someone who can do just one thing or many things. Be curious, be open to collecting skills, and be a team player.

Topics covered in this video: 

• What gets you hired is what you’re primarily qualified to do
• Now the question turns to what makes you successful going forward
• Deepening your expertise in one area is one approach
• Learning a bunch of additional skills is another
• Defining what a jack of all trades is and how it differs from a master of one 
• Even experts in one topic have many ways to learn to become more effective
• Exploring the example of a Green Beret A-Team (cross-training, one-trick ponies)
• Qualifications (going back to school) vs. attitude (volunteering, showing initiative)
• Lawyers who “stay in their lane” or apply their skills broadly
• You can stand out with just a little effort
• Awareness of the environment you work in, embassy & military example
• Have a broader perspective of what your organization is trying to do
• You never know when some skill you have will be useful later
• Summary of key takeaways

Transcript

James: 0:00

it was a real learning to see that, expertise in one domain does not necessarily translate to another domain. Greetings, friends. I'm James.

Randy: 0:10

And I'm Randy. You're listening to The Passionately Wrong podcast where we challenge your assumptions, offer some different perspectives, and hopefully help you make better decisions. Welcome everyone. Uh, thanks for coming back to the podcast. So today, James and I wanna discuss whether it's better to be a jack of all trades or a master of one. And, uh, I think from my opinion, it depends on where you are in your career, I guess. And if we're talking about, you know, your career and business only a lot of times, Coming outta college or if you didn't go to college, uh, you may be really skilled at one thing and that would, that's what gets you in the door. But is. One skill you're gonna have gonna pull you through promotions and management, supervisee, supervisor positions, or is expanding your knowledge to encompass a lot of other pieces of, of your work and your business, uh, gonna be, uh, more beneficial to you. So, uh, what do you think?

James: 1:22

Yeah, that's right Randy, and you're probably correct to start with, what is it that gets you hired by a company, whether you're early in your career or at any stage in your career, the company is hiring you or you enter into an organization because of something that they're looking for and something on your resume. You're an accountant, you're a project manager, you're a marketer, you're a lawyer, whatever. And. Those are specific skills that they're looking for, and you have to have basic competence in what they're looking for, or you're not gonna get hired. So there is probably at least one area and maybe a couple of areas in your education and your experience where you could say, okay, I'm pretty good here. I'm strong in this area because I've had training. I've gone to school, I've had some work experience. What we're. So it's, it's absolutely critical to have something like that that makes you, you know, that's what makes you attractive at all and gets your foot in the door. I think the question that we wanna explore is what keeps you in the company? What makes you successful in the company? Can you continue deepening your experience and your expertise in that one area? Obviously, yes. If I think of tax lawyers or IP lawyers, or accountants or marketers, or actually people in a lot of. Uh, parts of the company, many of them stayed in their department or their division and got better. Because they got more experience. They learned how the company worked. Uh, they practiced their skills in that area and whatever their level of expertise was when they started, they deepened their level of expertise and they became really valuable in those roles. You know, an accountant or a finance person who totally understands, um, their area of the business and they can answer questions quickly, do research quickly, they can add value related to their core competency, and it's quite valuable. So, to start with. I guess I would say it is useful to remember what got you hired and it's useful to. Keep up to date in that area, and it's useful to think of how you can expand in adjacent areas close to and related to this guild that got you in the door. It's probably not enough, but I also see the opposite happening, which is that people don't stay up to date on their field. They don't, you know, they rely on what they learned 30 years ago in school and they don't go get continuing education. And they're just running the same old program that's been running. Um, that's, that's not a way to stand out either. So if you do have a skill and you were hired for that skill, it pays to expand upon and deepen that skill.

Randy: 4:01

I think that's also a part of being jack of all trades. I mean, you are the master when you come in of law or accounting or, or, or whatever. But things are always evolving. There's al, they're always teaching new things in college and they're always putting out new things in journals that, that, uh, other. People in your profession have discovered and you being a part of that and being on the cusp of, you know, the next generation of techniques and tools in your profession is part of being a jack of all trades. On the other hand, I, I like what you said about expanding your knowledge of the business because yes, I'm a lawyer if I use the military's experie. I went to law school, the, the military paid for my education. Now I have to serve three years. I'm gonna apply that le that legal stuff in the military. But the military is a different animal than even probably normal government lawyers and other, other types of lawyers because they, they have rules of law, rules of war. When you go to war, what are we allowed to do? What, how's that interpreted? You know, what if we do this? Oh, you're trying to get around the law, or are we just trying to work through the law? Uh, there's different, um, I think we talked about this before in a previous episode, where it's like, uh, officers or commanders would say, I want to do this. So like, that's against the law. Okay. That's really final. How do we mitigate it? How do we put parameters in place where we can do this because I need this to win the war, and it's not against the law. What about, what specifically makes it against the law and, and can we put mitigations in place where it's no longer against the law? Is that going around the law or is that working within the loss? Making it possible? Because we've, we've taken all the, we've taken all the precaution.

James: 5:55

I guess I need to explore terminology with you a little bit, Randy, because what you're describing. No, no. Just to make sure we have the same understanding. When you say jack of all trades, I think of that as different than what you're describing of a person who gets really effective in one role. So the lawyer or the accountant, whatever they. Learned a business. They learned how to apply what they learned in school in a pragmatic way to help get things done. I consider that a person who is just getting better in their core competence. So that's a, a master of one in my terminology. When I think of jack of all trades, I'm thinking of the person who says, huh, I wanna learn project management skills. I wanna learn presentation skills. I actually wanna learn marketing skills. And uh, is there a way for me to branch out outside of my core expertise? In my particular case, I'll give you an example. I, I was a lawyer, right? That's why they hired me. But then I said, when I had opportunities, I'd like to do additional things. I wanted to run the company internet project or introduce a wiki to the company, which has nothing to do with legal skills, but it was a chance to see if I could do project management, change management. Which I sucked at, by the way. Not, and it was a real, it was a real learning to see that, expertise in one domain does not necessarily translate to another domain. So for me, the master. The jack of all trades is more someone who gets good at other areas, not necessarily relating to their court area or, or, um, you know what I'm getting at?

Randy: 7:25

No, I know what you're getting at and, and I'm, maybe I'm not as articulate as you, but I see what you are doing as kind of what I was saying, which is so. There's all kinds of different facets of the military, and the last one I was involved in in Italy was uh, um, basically military officers that went to other countries, worked for the ambassador, basically at the embassy to. in influence the country to buy specific equipment from America to make their militaries and police and security forces better. All right. Now there's so mu there's just a book of laws about how to do that and where that money comes from and, and, and, and, and, and how, how to do it. And you know, a lot of lawyers, straight outta law school was like, Hey, you're assigned to this unit, and like, what are we doing? And now they have to. Learn a new kind of law that was never probably ever discussed in law school. Uh, and, and not only learn that law, but learn, kind of go out into the field and say, what are we trying to do? And why are we trying to do it? And are we trying to do it for the right reasons? And, and, and how do the laws work for it against that? And I, I feel like that's a part of Jack of all trades because. You could be the great, you could have been number one law student at Harvard, and then you come here and you're just really bad at it because you have no interest in it and you, you, you don't want to go in the field and things like that. Does that make sense? Is that still not what you're talking about? Or is that still a phase of it? Because look what, let's, let me one more thing. So what you just said is, Hey, I wanted to get into project management and things like that. And even though you're a bad at it now, you are a lawyer that works for this company that knows about. So when they have a question about that, they're gonna go, who's got some experience in project management? It's like, well, I suck at it, but I did take some courses or something like that. You're the go-to guy. Exactly.

James: 9:17

It's like, it's like you raising your hand when it is the question, does anybody speak French? And you spoke, I'm French, and maybe, you know. So yes, it's exactly that phenomenon that I think we're exploring here. You're making a good point, and I understand your point now. So that was a helpful explanation, which is even though you might be. Quote unquote expert. When you graduate and finish school, you've got a degree. You are not expert when it comes to the value you can offer to your organization because there's a lot that you may not have seen. It's not a criticism, it's just you learn as you are doing it in context, and that requires you to gain additional skills and you should have an open mindset. That says, Hey, I, I am, at the moment, I graduate, the most knowledgeable person in the world about my field. But when it comes to applying your knowledge in a practical way in your company, you are not the most knowledgeable person and you need to have a learning mindset. So yes, from that perspective, I think your, I, I understand your comment now. I, I was actually raising the bar one step further, which is to say, okay, you new graduate coming into an organization, yes, you need to work like crazy to make sure that you. Listen to others. Learn about how the organization works, learn how to get stuff done practically, by the way, a big part of being effective in your role as an expert is just knowing how stuff gets done in your company. That's not a legal question. It's which boss do I go to, who's gonna be open to an argument about doing it this way versus this way? Who's gonna shut me down because they don't wanna take any risk. There's human factors, there's practical factors, there's timing factors that go into. How you leverage your subject matter expertise. So all of that is correct and accurate. A hundred percent supported. And maybe it was premature, but I was, uh, proposing that we go beyond that and say, now you're a total kick ass lawyer, accountant, project manager, whatever. Should you, and is it beneficial to you to try. Take on the additional French or you know, internet or cybersecurity or whatever the other topic is. Or are you just fooling yourself that because you don't have deep expertise, you're never gonna be as valuable as somebody who does spend all of their day job over in that area. Maybe let's explore that. You've already given an example that the French actually did open up doors for you that it wouldn't have. Yeah. Otherwise,

Randy: 11:44

no, I, um, So I have a, a couple different views of this. I, I'll use my military experience on a Green Beret. A team. There's 12 guys there. There's two. Two weapon specialists, two engineer demolition specialists, two medics, two com sergeants. So they're, so they're replaceable. Like if one gets shot, then someone, we can still make commo or we can still heal somebody, or the guy can heal the guy that got shot, you know, and then there's two officers that are supposed to, you know, I'll know what's going on. And then there's an intelligence NCO o and then, and an actual, uh, senior nco, a team sergeant. And the, ideally the intelligence NCO was like the senior enlisted guy below the team sergeant. So if the team sergeant. Got hurt, then that guy could immediately take charge or you could go to two six band teams. That was always the idea that you could, you could split it into six band teams and they'd all work together cuz they had worked together. Now, even though you're, you got. Two of each profession, so to speak. Um, many times the teams weren't complete because we didn't have enough people passing the Q course. Uh, so we just, we didn't, we went, we sometimes went to war with nine people, or 10 people, or 11 people. Um, and also just because those two guys are communication guys and can set up satellites and, you know, antennas to talk across the world doesn't mean. Uh, those are the only two guys that are gonna do it because there's a lot of equipment to lug around. And if you go split team and that combo guy on your, on your six-man team goes down, then who's gonna set up the radio? So there's all of this cross-training and there was some people that just, I mean, and everyone made jokes that the weapon sergeant was the least intelligent guy on the team. Um, just because it was not, there was not a lot of, uh, high school. College. Education knowledge involved in taking apart, fixing and putting together and shooting weapons. So the idea was, you know, those guys are the least intelligent on the team. Now, I'll say the first job I did was a weapon Sergeant And uh, and, and, uh, and then I went and became a medic. And the medic is supposedly the smartest guy on the team because, Basically you go to medical school in a year and a half and, and then you come out and you're doing amputations and you're diagnosing people with rare jungle diseases and you're, you know, bringing people back to back to life with, uh, you know, doing C P R and, you know, shocking them and, and, and a variety of other things. And you've learned all these skills that most people go to medical school for. You know, they go to college for four years in medical school, then they specialize and, and you come out the other end. the thing on the team was everyone learns everyone's job and there were some people there throw up their hands. He's like, this isn't my job. I'll never learn how to do it. I'm not smart enough. I'm not gonna do it. That guy became what we called a one trick pony, and the true, the, the reality was eventually you're like, No one's awake if you can't help everybody else do their job because you're, you're saying you're not smart enough. Maybe I don't want you on my team and I want someone else. that's kind of an extreme example because we had a limited amount of people and a small amount of people to choose from. But if you, like, I, when I was a, when I was a weapons guy, I also dug, I, I hung out with the engineer. I'm like, Hey, teach me how to blow things up. How do I use a time fuse? How do I not blow myself up? You know, how do I not blow the team up? And I learned all that. And then I hung, and then I helped the, the guy set the antennas up and, and, Hey, what are you doing now? Oh, this thing gets loaded this way. Okay, all right. I gotta figure it out. And then I would even say, let me do it today. And I would figure all this stuff out. people would say, Hey, you know, Randy, that guy, he's pretty smart. He's, uh, not a one trick pony. He can do a little bit of everything. And some people looked at that though. The not being a one trick pony was, I gotta go to a bunch of schools, I gotta go to sniper school and I gotta go to scuba school and I gotta go to Ninja School, or whatever. Right? And so they would get all these qualifications. It's like, I'm not a one trick pony. Look, I have all these abilities, but that's not what me, when I was a supervisor, when I became a team sergeant, that's not what I looked at. I looked at as, Hey, are you able to kind. Help everyone out and make everyone stronger because of your presence? Or are you still a one trick pony? Like, I only do engineering stuff and if you need me to shoot a sniper rifle, I'll do it. But all this other stuff, I don't get it. I'm not gonna help out. That's, I'm not the expert, they're the expert. Why should I help out? And so it was once again, going back to what we talked about in some of our first episodes, which was, Volunteering showing initiative, being a team player and that all, and that all involves I think, becoming a jack of all trades. So, you know, hey, I'm the. I think it's a little bit, maybe you can tell me you're not, but like, if you're a lawyer and you're hired to be a lawyer, then you really need to stay on your lawyer's stuff, right? It's, it's really hard to kind of go right or left outside your, your kind of lawyer, right? And left limits because this is what you were hired to do. And if you don't do it well then why are we have you here? We need another lawyer. Uh, and then, but if you have the time and the mental. Access to go into a different way and delve into something else. Learning French for instance, or program managing or something like that. Or if they have some downtime and say, Hey, I the best idea talking about volunteering and showing initiative. If you noticed on the calendar, on the business calendar, hey, we have some downtime where I'm not so busy. I could probably use an extra two hours a day to study French or dig into program managing, or I could take this week off and just get into a program, managing program, for lack of a better word, and learn about what's going on over here. Then I think that goes back to just like we said, volunteering, showing initiative, being a team player and using your time wisely, and being that jack of all trades always helps a little bit. If not, if not more.

James: 17:57

that's a helpful description of how you personally experienced it and how you think the military deals with it. And I think if I can, let me highlight a few things that I took away from that summary. Randy, first, maybe with something you said near the end about if I've hired you for a lawyer, I, it's harder for you to step out of your lane. I'll, I'll give you an easy example of where that comes up actually for company lawyers all the time, which is, yeah, we are hired for our legal skills, but. Mm. Three quarters of CEOs ask their general counsels to weigh in on business strategy questions because they know we've got good judgment, we are good at analysis. We can look at things objectively. We come with a different mindset, so they want us to use our skills. In other areas, and some lawyers are comfortable doing that, and some lawyers are not comfortable doing that. They say, Hey, I'm here to provide answers on legal questions. I don't wanna get into business strategy. Well, okay, that's a missed opportunity if you aren't willing to add that one trade to your, to your tool belt. And that gets to an important thing that's gonna affect how people, uh, approach this question, which is what's the type of organization in the type of team they're in the size of the organization. If you're in a giant. Company or organization that has 15 specialists for every role. You're probably not gonna wear many different hats. You're not gonna have to wear many different hats. They have the accountant to answer the finance questions. They have the lawyer to answer the legal questions. They have the product manager to answer the product questions. So what you were describing with the Green Beret, a team six interchangeable people. You know, it's extremely helpful to have someone who can do more than just one thing, because you never know if you're gonna be stuck with not nine people, but five people, and then one you do. So, yes, I accept that there's gonna be a different answer here, potentially depending upon the type of uh, organization you're in.

Randy: 19:42

But

James: 19:44

as your story demonstrated, there's something important I think we need to highlight here, which is how much expertise is necessary for you to gain a benefit from showing yourself curious and interested and open to trying new things. It's incremental. You just need to be a little bit more curious, a little bit better than the person over here who says, I don't know anything about that and I don't wanna learn a couple hours. Right. Of paying attention and learning something makes you. Both interesting and potentially valuable to a team that has a choice of either nothing or, well, we got Randy, so don't think that you have to go off and get a degree or become a super expert. I agree with you on that one. That's not what makes you a jack of all trades. It's more the attitude and the openness to saying, well, that's not my job, but I'm interested in, so the relative expertise that's necessary is just more than the other guy that's. Which is why, again, I think you're gonna be affected by the size of the organization. If the company always has on hand 15 experts at PowerPoint, well they're not gonna care that you took a class and know a little bit about it.

Randy: 20:45

I mean, I think also the, the, the kind of an extension of that is who does a company want as a supervisor? Do they want someone. Who, you know, you're still, uh, we'll, we'll go, we'll step away from lawyers, but let's, like, hey, you're a programmer and you programmed your whole life, but you never dipped your toes in marketing or talking to clients or, or things like that. And do you want someone who's really good at one thing? Or pretty good, but not the best at one thing. But he knows a lot about it and he kind of expanded his horizons, so he knows a little bit about how the whole business works and he's talked to different specialties. And so when he is a supervisor, in his mind, it's easy for him or her to kind of bring all these things to the table. And I found that that was really my strength when I had, when I got experience in all these different. I got experience in the EM working in an embassy environment. Well, whenever military team goes to another country, the ambassador is the representative of the president for the United States, anybody who works for the United States government, which includes the military. Now there is a general somewhere, and in the case of South America, that general is sitting in Miami and he is in charge of all military forces in South America. However, The ambassador can kick anybody that's an American in the government, working for the government, outta the country for doing something stupid anytime he wants to. If you just like insult him in the hallway, he could do that. I'm sure that doesn't happen very often, but you know, if you're, if you're just not aware of what's going on, he can say, you're not an asset here. Get the hell outta my country. and then the general's gotta explain why they send an idiot to work for the ambassador. Um, so the, the fact that I worked at an embassy and I understood that, hey, there's a general that I have to report to, but if the ambassador's not happy with me, I'm not gonna work here. So I can't just say, and the ambassador has his own people that work for him. And so you have to kind of have a, an awareness of the environment you work in to say, Yes, sir. Uh, I'm not authorized to do that. I'm gonna have to talk to my general as Oppos as opposed to, hell no, I'm not gonna do that. And just shut down the ambassador's staff. And then the next thing, the ambassador's like, Hey, the military said they're not gonna do that. It's like, well then why are they even running that country? Kick'em out. You know that, that, I'm sure that has happened in the past for, but, I also think. The ambassador. Most ambassadors, and maybe not the staff so much, but the ambassadors understand that new military people come into their, come into the country all the time and they don't understand the chains of command that are, you know, crosswise and up and down. And so they'll call the general cause they have a relationship with that person who's in charge of all the military in their country. And he is like, Hey, you're stupid captain. Uh, said this, this, and this, and he is like, uh, hold on. I'll talk to him. And then, you know, you get a, you get a good talking to, and then you're a better person for it. So my experience was, hey, I knew how the embassy worked. I knew how all the change of commands worked, which a lot of people in the military don't understand. They show up and they're like, Hey, I'm here to. And they do whatever they want. Not realizing that really the, the, the embassies in control of this as the, the senior person in the country and my experience with this was also put me in different positions and jobs later on where they're like, Hey, we're looking for a guy who knows about Green Berets, knows how embassies work, speaks languages, you know, and just kind of this jack of all trades things that we're talking about. I, I wouldn't say I. Excellent at everything, but I had such a, a, a, a broad. Bunch of experience and skills that Jack of all trades piece that when they look at me and, and they look at another guy, he's like, this guy is, if you send him a war, he's gonna win. But guess what, we're not at war in AF Africa. So do we need, you know, Joe Hero or do you need a guy that understands that, the ambassadors that got to say so, and he still got a report to the general and then also report to this guy. And so that's, that's a very kind of narrow way to look at it, but it also shows how the jack of all trades, especially as you progress in your profession, can play out for you.

James: 25:13

Yeah, I don't think it's a narrow way to look at it. I think it's similar to what I was trying to say before myself in terms of how do you, even if you're there as a subject matter expert, Really become effective in your role? It is by really understanding how the organization works exactly as you're describing. This part is connected to this part, this way, and this person has an influence and I need to understand that that person is worried about this. Understanding how your organization works at a high level is super important. If you never intend to get out of your specialist role, even then, it's super important and I think you've added an element to it though, which. Allows for having that broad perspective allows for a kind of mobility. You could do other jobs and you might be tapped for other positions just exactly because of that facility in understanding how the organization works and thinks. I used to tell my team, and I think it applies to anybody in any position, uh, the way I would get them to think about this question was, where do you see yourself and what you are doing in the company? How does your activity right now fit with some overall company objective? What are you helping the company achieve that the company cares about? And if they're like, uh, I'm just doing what you told me, well, okay, they're, they're not thinking for themselves and they're not looking at that big picture question. Whether you work in the cafeteria, whether you work in the motor pool, whether you work in the finance department, whether you're in the boardroom, you need to be able to answer that question. What's the overall organizational purpose and how's what I'm doing? Connect with that purpose. Is a super helpful perspective. I would agree with you. I think it's enough to say that is something that will make you very effective in your role, and I like that you added the perspective, Randy, that, and oh, by the way, it also means that you might be capable of moving into an adjacent role, uh, just by virtue of that, that openness in that perspective.

Randy: 27:04

Yeah, there's an element of making your own. in being a jack of all trades because you never know when a skill or an experience that you initiate to learn is gonna come into play about, you know, choosing you in inside the company for a specific job that may help you, you know, get promoted faster or, uh, be in, you know, a more manager, manager position or something like that. And I, I, that's happened to me so many times. I, I can't even tell you, James. I. I, I, I applied for the job to, to work in Columbia and, you know, I, I'd been to the Columbian commando school. So the, the guy, the guy in charge of all military, in the, in, in the embassy, there's a colonel and he's like, I have to visit all these colonels and generals in Columbia all the time. And the, every single one of those officers in the Columbian army has been to. Columbian Landro school. I haven't, but if I got this guy with me and he comes in with the badge, then that, that gets me in the door to talk to these guys even easier. And so when I, when they, when they have four guys that possible guys they can choose from, who are they gonna choose? The guy that's gonna, you know, even if we're all. We're all, you know, we all did so many times on the teens. We went to Afghanistan so many times. We spent so much time in Columbia. But who speaks fluent Spanish and who can, who can help me my, through my mission by getting to talk to these people that, that's part of my job.

James: 28:40

Yeah. And so, you know, if I wanna try and summarize a few points, uh, About what people can take away and concretely try to apply themselves from what we've been talking about. I think there are some concrete takeaways. Um, I'll take a stab at it and you tell me if they make sense or any. I would say we would recommend that people be curious. Uh, keep an eye on the big picture for their organization. How do the different parts interact and how do things get done? Be open to opportunities and don't worry if it's not clear to you how a particular thing that you might be asked to do or have an opportunity to do is going to help you. It very often has no relevance whatsoever until later. So those are some of the things I think we could say. Would help a person develop in their career if they are interesting in becoming more of aj, Jack of all trades. What else would you add to the list?

Randy: 29:31

I mean, I, I think everything you just said can be encompassed and be a team player. And, and also, you know, I never went around saying to, to people in the different departments and going, what can you do for me? I went in, I went in saying, Hey, what can I do for you from my position? What, what do you need from my department? And then I learned what they do there. And kind of learn also what they could do for me just by default. But, uh, but it was always more of a giving than a taking, you know, be a team player and, you know, try to help other people in the department with your specialty if you, if you, if they need you. And then by, by, by that end also kind of learning what all the different players around you and departments, uh, are, are doing so that you can better integrate yourself and, and help everyone out. So a team, be a team player I think is super important.

James: 30:25

I like that Randy, I observed that particularly when people get busy and they're under pressure, they get very selfish. Uh, in a way. They say, listen, I got so much going on. I have to focus on number one. And they become much less of a team player, much less willing to help out their colleagues. Especially though, I would say in those environments, you can stand out like crazy if you remain helpful. If you say, Hey, look. I'm, I'm willing to help you out. You still gotta get your own work done. So this does put more responsibility and work on one's shoulders, but it's so helpful to how people perceive you and think of you. Uh, that I would say that's a trade off that's worth making. Uh, I've observed over many years watching people in, in, in the work environment you can tell who's turned off and is not willing to help their colleagues anymore and who is still willing to be a team player. And the team players do stand out. So that is a nice.

Randy: 31:17

Okay. Well, uh, I hope you, uh, that our listeners got something out of today and, and then they'll tune in, subscribe and comment and, uh, join us next time. Thanks everybody. We'd love to hear what you think, so please comment on the show with your thoughts. We read all of your comments.

James: 31:35

Thanks for joining us, and thanks for subscribing. See you next time.