E019 An Interview with the Amazing Elsa P.

Passionately Wrong Podcast Episode E019

Elsa P. Interview

Bio: Since the beginning of her career, Elsa has worked at the intersection of Social Science and Humanities (SSH) and Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics (STEM) fields. A jurist by education and former member of the Athen’s bar, with a Master’s degree in Strategic Studies, she acquired extensive professional experience as legal, strategic and public affairs advisor, policy officer and project manager throughout the posts she held in the private sector and within the EU institutions. Elsa has worked on various research and innovation projects with subjects ranging from alternative fuels, CO2 emission reduction, health data, Artificial Intelligence, SMEs and startups funding. An AI aficionado following a part-time PhD on AI and ethics-by-design in healthcare with the Department of Informatics of the Ionian University in Greece, Elsa enjoys learning about the fascinating world of AI and building bridges between the world of tech with that of law and ethics. Elsa likes to talk about international politics, war, peace, if democracy is the antidote to war, if Clausewitz was right about human nature and its violent facets, and if Sun Tzu's writing 'I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion.' is pertinent to our times. She grew up by the sea and loved the movie 'Big Blue'. With four certifications in scuba diving and a sea 'animal' by nature, she wants to become a scuba diving instructor, dive with whale sharks and teach AI ethics traveling around the world. Elsa likes doing sports such as Crossfit, basketball and martial arts (Muay Thai, BJJ, Escrima/Kali) 

Her motto: 'I know one thing, that I know nothing'

Key takeaway: A wide-ranging discussion about Elsa’s life, how she thinks about living well, raising children to be fully functioning adults, and how to avoid being passionately wrong.

Topics covered in this video: 
- Elsa’s introduction - Greek origins, Scotland, Luxembourg, Brussels; family
- On being mobile and living in several places, and on slowing down
- Creating nice memories
- Elsa’s thoughts about time, experiencing things at a slower pace to remember them
- Keep the good parts of bad moments, forgiveness
- Randy and Elsa talk about scuba training and dealing with tough times
- Useful vs. useless pain
- Flying dreams, law school, desire to understand how things work
- Energy transport (hydrogen projects)
- AI, PhD on AI genetics by design in health and care
- Why Elsa went to Scotland 
- We need to live in a way that does not make us sick mentally or physically
- Living according to the Golden Ratio - be less selfish and more giving
- Lessons for her daughters: when we fall, we get up, learn from mistakes; perfection may be right in front of your eyes; judge people by their courage
- Important decisions: choosing who you’ll share your life with
- Inspire your kids: lead by example, have them talk to others, 
- Leave behind a legacy and not a reputation
- Mistakes others make: living for others rather than with others, broken situations can be tied back to poor communication
- Your gut microbiome knows, listen to it

Transcript

Elsa: 0:00

Wait, you didn't hear the best part of it. You didn't ask me yet why I went to Scotland.

Randy: 0:05

Oh yeah, we, I forgot we had to go back. Wait. Why did you go to Scotland el, is it Lochte? Monster oriented?

James: 0:18

Greetings, friends. I'm James.

Randy: 0:20

And I'm Randy. You're listening to The Passionately Wrong podcast where we challenge your assumptions, offer some different perspectives, and hopefully help you make better decisions.

James: 0:31

Hi everyone. Welcome to today's episode. Today is a special episode for two reasons. Randy and I have our first guest on the show, and she's gonna introduce herself in a moment. And the guest is, of course, probably going to be a highlight for all time, and you'll hear about why as soon as she's start talking. So Elsa, thanks very much for joining us to the Passionately Wrong podcast. You are someone whom I know as, certainly passionate. And, the second part, maybe not so much. I don't know you as being wrong very often. So today we're gonna explore a little bit, who you are, what you're doing, and what you can add to this discussion about how to be wrong less often. So maybe, first of all, welcome. Could you say a few words for our listeners about your background? Who do we have on the show today?

Elsa: 1:17

Okay. Thank you very much, James and Randy. It's, awesome for me to be here with you today and, be your first guest. and maybe your first guest. You never know, so I may be guessing wrong too. I like wordplay, so it's gonna be like this a little bit throughout the, the podcast. So I'm Greek. I'm actually baptized, uh, ATLA, which means Greece in Greek. And I was born on the 17th of November, 1973, which is, one of the national, celebrations in Greece the day that the Juta went down. So I do not know if this is a coincidence or the stars were very wrong, so I may be passionately wrong as well. And, I left Greece when I was 25. I'm gonna be closing the half century of my life on this earth in November. And, uh, looking forward to the next half of the century. So, you see, I'm ambitious and, uh, and I left Greece when I was 25 and I went first. to Scotland, uh, let you know after that why. And then I went to Luxembourg and then in Brussels where I started working for a company where I met James. So actually James was indirectly also my employer. I was as I was working for the association of, uh, corporate councils. I have, two amazing children, 13 and 10 years old girls. They are, doing great things. I'm, happy with my life and I really enjoy talks like this, so I'm looking forward to our discussion.

James: 3:01

That's great, and I like that you have divided your life conveniently into quarters over the course of a century, 25 years in Greece, 25 years out of it, perhaps coming up on the halfway mark. Um, I also just totally informally in my head, divided my life up into quarters. Mine was 25 years of, uh, youth and education, 25 years of work. Now I want 25 years of active intellectual pursuits. And then the last 25, I'm keeping open for something else. But, nice. I also detect a. Dichotomy, between people. Some find it. That they start moving around at a certain age, doesn't matter what age, and then they usually don't tend to stop. You live in one place, you move to another place, and then all of a sudden your mind is opened up to the possibility that you could live in lots of different places. And that certainly seems to be the case for you. And the other half are people who grow up and live in one place and don't ever feel the need to move. And that's so interesting to me. Randy and I probably fall in the same camp as you in the sense that because of our families, we were itinerant from an early age on, but now the idea of moving around and living in different places doesn't seem strange. Do you think you'll ever want to slow down and stay in one place? And if so, what are some places that would be on your list of possible second half of your life? I could stay here for a few years.

Elsa: 4:31

Hmm. That's a very interesting question. I'm gonna put it in a different context. Moving around doesn't mean that you don't slow down basically. So as the years go by, I do slow down. I do slow down in the sense that I'm not apprehensive in a more, in the sense whether I'm doing enough, whether I'm good enough, whether I, what's that, that I could do next. I've learned to take things a little bit as they come and be a little bit like water that I know it's a very cliche phrase, but I think it really fits a certain level of, um, wisdom and experience. So in Greek, we sayin, which means you hurry up, but by slowing down, So I will keep on moving, but in a more grounded motion, really. Um, living not the moment because I don't really believe that time exists, but that's another discussion, but really enjoying the experience that is given. To us at that specific, uh, circumstance so that I can create an intense memory. So I'm in the process of creating nice memories with nice people. So from that sense, I do slow down, but I'd like to move and live in other places when, for example, my kids would have left home for university. I must admit that, um, I have always wanted to move, to the States for some time. I do not know why, but I feel a special connection to Chicago. That sounds really weird. I know I've been there a couple of times for work. I fell home. I would like to go to Miami for a certain reason as well, and somehow I would like to go and live for a while in Vancouver. Again, don't ask me why. I just have like this feeling. I've been up to Seattle and I was one more from Vancouver, but I was too tired due to work, uh, obligations. So I dropped it and I said, I'm not gonna go there. So these are the three places that I would like to, to to live for a while. And the rest is simply traveling around with scuba diving equipment and washing whale sharks and. Whales and whatever have you in the undersea world.

Randy: 7:20

I wonder if, the speed up through slowing down and, and being like water kind of, uh, thought process, is that, do you think that's Greek? Do you think that's Europe? I don't find it. Common everywhere in Europe. Do you think it, you attribute that to maybe all your martial arts, training, which I noticed you have more than I do. I'm, I'm ex-military. I didn't know if you knew that. Yes, I was reading your bio and I got to the end. I was like, whoa. She's a ninja. But, but, but what do you, uh, what do you, what do you attribute that kind of attitude or just, you know, Mo getting to your, to, to where you are in life right now, having gone through all your experiences? That's just, that's just the way you look at life.

Elsa: 8:04

I think it's, um, more related to a kind of a thought process that I have been. Experimenting with ever since I was, a kid actually. And I, I like reading. I like reading a lot, and I was always triggered by the notion of time and whether time exists and whether time defines us or we have defined time. I'm not a scientist and I do not pretend to know quantum, physics or whatever is being proven in a. Uh, scientific manner about the existence of time. I read a book recently in, uh, the Order of Time by Karl Veli, where very knowledgeably, proves that time somehow does not exist. I started becoming, a little bit stressed by the fact that I am not. having the memories that I would like to have. So through reading and experience, unfortunately I have lost, beloved ones and at a younger age that triggered even more the need to, to slow down while remaining active. So I think it's the fact that I was trying to develop a methodology of. Keeping the memory of situations and of people, especially the beloved ones, that has led me to this mentality of doing things, but in a kind of slow motion. It's as if you know you're watching a film and you just somehow need to fast forward it, but at the same time you just put it on a slow motion button. So that you can understand what's happening in the plot. I dunno if this makes sense. And I think martial arts also has helped a lot. I'm not a pro or anything. I just like the structure that they give you and the sense of, let's say maintaining your calm and thinking before acting. I know it's. Cliche, but my, my professors, they were teaching me, you do not engage unless it's absolutely necessary, basically, and you do not escalate. So all this have led me to develop this need of doing things, experience things, but at a slower pace so that I can really experience them and remember them. When I want to explain when I, what I did when I was in the states or share with my kids mostly the experience and transmit the feeling that I had at that moment, because I think in terms of communication, a narrative is nice, words is nice, but when you encompass this narrative with feelings, And these are real, the person understands to whom you're communicating, understands better, and the retention of the information. I think, the retention rate of the information, I think it is higher than if it just words.

James: 11:31

So would, say. It sounds to me, Elsa, like you have made it a personal choice to live your life at the speed you're living it with the strong building of memories and emotions as it's happening because of things that have happened to you in your life and because you now see the value I. Of living purposefully, or that's probably the wrong word, but living in a way that, emphasizes you having the experiences and the emotions that you want. I also will say you've given me a great excuse for what I will say to Randy now if I'm behind on getting a podcast reviewed or transcribed, which is, Hey, time doesn't exist. This is all just an illusion. Quantum physics drives anyone crazy who, gets into it in any way. And the problem of time is one of many that is facing physics right now, right? The equation's working both directions, whether time's going one way or the other way, and this creates issues. but anyway, thanks for that and also for your explanation. I might add one little thing with respect to the formation of memories from the perspective of psychology, which is that. Yes. Slowing down and paying attention can help us form vivid memories at the time, the thing is happening. You can also, however, reinforce and shape memories after the fact by virtue of storytelling, repetition, and you can also, how do I say this? Change your memories in a way or shape them in a direction of your choosing. So let's say you had an event that turned out, started out being. Not entirely positive. It had its traumatic moments. Your scuba diving and the waves were high, and a shark came too close to you. You can, that was all vivid at the time it was happening, but you don't wanna have bad feelings about it later. So you remember the highlights, which is how great the sunrise was on the boat that morning, or whatever you do. And by virtue of repeating the parts that you really want to remember, you can make your memories, your memories are malleable, and so you can shape them. At least that's been my experience. So I, I like both approaches vividly paying attention to what's happening at the moment. But then I would also say, and maybe I would ask you that question, do you try to highlight those things and tell stories to your kids about the stuff that you want them to remember? Or is it really just for you, a matter of paying careful attention in the moment that you are recording the memory?

Elsa: 13:54

No, I do. Keep the good parts. Mm-hmm. From bad moments and all, no matter how painful these moments are, I always try to, and I do see what have I learned from this, and I don't very much concur with the notion that we learned through pain. I don't agree with this. At all that no pain, no gain, it's not for me. It's effort and gain. It doesn't have to be painful. We don't have to suffer to learn. Sometimes suffering blocks memory, it does not allow you to enjoy. And you turn and you are constantly to some kind of a survival mode. And at a certain point, you need to start telling your brain when you're in a safe space, Hey, I'm safe now. I don't need to fight anymore for anything. And it takes time. So it takes the joy out of, A nice experience away, but I do, stay with the highlights. For example, I still, I keep in my memory, The images of me and the beloved cousin that I lost when she was very young. And I was very young when we were, walking down the street, holding each other. And, the other day I was working with my older daughter and we were holding each other like that. My, my hand over her shoulders and vice versa. And I told her, you know what? I was working with my cousin like this and I had a flashback of this memory. And she was like, really? Mom said, yeah, it was very nice. And I feel very nice that we walk like this together. So I do keep the nice moments and, we move on. Life moves on and. you remember? The good stuff. I think this is related also to the fact of forgiveness. Unless something horrible has happened to you, or something has done something extremely horrible to you, but I think maybe forgiveness is linked to that, is you forgive yourself actually from the bad memories and you keep the good ones. And I think that's the only way that, you can move on. You may not forgive or forget. What the other person did. But you may forgive yourself from keeping from ho, from bearing the garage and holding onto the bad, memories. So that,

James: 16:31

I love that idea that when you are trying to get past bed memories, it's actually yourself that you're allowing some forgiveness to, to just let it go. be kind to yourself. that's a really nice way to think about it. Randy, I'm gonna let you, perhaps respond to the, undermining of your 30 years of military training with the suggestion that no pain, no gain. I'm sure you had some thoughts about that, although it could also be just by misconception of how the military works. We've talked about that in previous episodes. What's your take on that?

Randy: 17:01

Uh, no, I'm, I'm, I'm more on the side of her. You don't have to ha be, go through pain to do that. Unfortunately, there's a lot of, assessments and gates in the military where you, I have gone through some pain to get where I needed to go, but I, I do, uh, not to, not to, uh, dwell on this too much, but also do you use scuba dive, James?

James: 17:24

I do not.

Randy: 17:25

So, uh, in the scuba school, in the military that I, that I attended, by the way, in order to get in, you have to like run a lot and, do a lot of other physical stuff just to stay in. So it's a little bit different than maybe getting civilian certified. But one of the things they teach you is to stay calm when something goes wrong, because. You have time. If you, if you do everything correct, you have some, some automatic things that you do to track your lines and make sure you're not tangled and find your regulator and stuff like that. And you can keep yourself alive if you maintain calmness and get what you need, get the air you need to do and then figure out the problems and that all that, when you know, when you go through those rhythms, it kind of affects the rest of your life about like, hey, If it's, it's not all as bad as you think you're gonna get through it, you know, slow down and think your way out of problems.

Elsa: 18:24

Yeah, absolutely. I get the question because I, I have. I have deep dive also on, uh, certification and did the stress and rescue and first aid. So it's really daunting when you are like 40 meters, I mean, underwater with all this bulk of water around you. I mean, the first time it's really, it's really impressive. But then if you like water, you're feeling in a, in a safe space and you keep your calm. So basically, Your system, your emotional and your brain system suffers to an extent, but this is constructive training, I would say. So I put the training and the pain that it's caused. For example, when you are. You, you have to pass the exams. You talked about I do CrossFits sometimes I, I walk in the, in the box and I look at the ward and I'm telling myself, do I really want to do this now? Do I freaking really walk to do this? And okay, I'm up. Like since five 30 or six, having the, having worked, having done groceries, having cooked, et cetera. But then, okay, I do it. I'm not at my best performance and I'm not there to perform. I'm just there to move. But still, it's hard training. So to an extent you are painting so that you are gaining after that. And what I gain after this pain is a certain sense of, How can I say detox? If it's a detox session? Actually for me it's as if I go to the playground, to the box. People ask me, why do you do this? It's as if I go to the playground at the end of my school day, actually, and it's not every day, but, um, yeah, with, uh, maybe I should correct and this is where I was wrong. Maybe it's not so much the pa I should frame the pain. It's the effort that you do do it sometimes can be very strenuous in order to achieve a goal. And when, uh, which is a, a useful effort and pain. What I do not concur with is useless pain.

James: 20:46

Actually suffering without, a purpose, doesn't really make you stronger. yes. From studies of people at work, we know that. What brings people the greatest satisfaction and the greatest meaning is actually challenging work, but it has to be challenges that the person feels like they have a reasonable prospect of overcoming and accomplishing. If you think the challenge is too light, you aren't motivated and it doesn't bring any meaning, and if the challenge is too hard and you think there's no way I can achieve it, then that's also, quite demotivating to people. So the trick is finding that. Happy area in the middle. And it's quite a big area where you say, this is really hard, but I feel great because I'm doing it. And all right, so that's a good explanation of some of what you do. We haven't gotten into, and I'd like to spend a few minutes on it cuz it's quite interesting, some of your intellectual activities and thoughts, the way that you have organized your education. to start this, let me ask you about something that struck me, which was a. Bit of disparate threads, and maybe I'm reading this wrong, but if you focused first on social sciences and humanities and then on stem, what brings those two together? Because usually people don't combine both fields. You're either hard sciences or your social sciences, and yet you seem to have managed to study both and remain interested in both. Is that correct? First of all? Yeah. Why? what's going on in that head?

Elsa: 22:15

Okay. Uh, so I know you're gonna laugh, but That's okay. when I was about 13, I wanted to become, uh, pleased on love an Air Force pilot. I hadn't seen Top Gun so Nice. I was reading top tv. Yeah, so I was reading Flight and Space. There was a magazine in Greece. I was learning technical stuff about f sixteens, about stealth, about b2, s everything. So, but then in Greece, they wouldn't take women as, uh, in the Air Force Pilot School, not even as mechanics, not even to helicopters. So the dream was abandoned and I didn't think much of it. So I joined, the law school. But now thinking back, I should have become a doctor. Ah-huh. So

James: 23:09

that does not make the explanation any clearer, um, other than to say you're ambitious and have broad interests. Okay.

Elsa: 23:18

So, yeah, I mean, I would still would, I would still love to become an Air Force pilot. You know, when I see, um, a fighter jet, I'm like, wow. Yeah. Talk to me dirty. Something like that. You know,

Randy: 23:32

you can still, you do you fly? Have, have you learned how to

Elsa: 23:35

No, no, no. That's a project. That's a project that's, um, a project which is on the to-do list. Um, it's just a question of finance. The rest is the wheel and the time. I'll find it. And then, uh, uh, the law school, I was not very much interested in becoming an attorney. I didn't like practicing law in that sense. And somehow in the back of my head, I always like everything that was related to technology and science, understanding how things work actually, and most of all, most of all, understanding how our body works, which is an amazing machine basically. And I think this curiosity and this um, um, let's say desire to understand how things work, Has led me to work on projects that initially, uh, dealt, uh, with subjects on energy transport, et cetera. So, I was working on a project that, um, introduced hydrogen that, uh, that studied the introduction of hydrogen in the road transport sector and the creation of large scale demo projects. That was back in 2006 when I arrived in Brussels. It was super interesting. I traveled to the US visiting the National Hydrogen Association twice. I went to British Columbia where I visited. Um, Uh, um, I, sorry. I went to California where I visited the California Fuel Cell Partnership. They were, I really liked, um, the, the project and I'm a big fan of hydrogen. So in case, uh, I would, um, Replace my car. I would like it to be a hydrogen car. That's not a promotion. I just, and um, and then I got, uh, into health research and I discovered my vocation. And then you're gonna laugh again. Uh, everyone left yet? Yeah. I haven't, I have, I have seen what you left a bit. I had watched the terminator. Ah, and then I, I was like, wow, I like ai. So this lingered on for a while until I managed to start working on ai, uh, having the files on data and AI and one of my previous posts, and combining it with health, understanding how the body works and. This is where I am now and this is why I am doing also this, uh, PhD on AI genetics by design in health and care, which is more of a hobby actually. And, uh, Yeah, I'm a nerd. What can I say?

Randy: 26:37

But there's nothing to laugh about. My, my, I mean, my first son is, is, is named after Reese from the Terminator. So I, there's, I don't see anything to laugh about there. And then, uh, and then of course I joined the Army because I watched a Rambo movie and I wanted to be tough. So you're, you're actually a couple levels above me for sure.

Elsa: 26:58

Wait, you didn't hear the best part of it. You didn't ask me yet why I went to Scotland.

Randy: 27:03

Oh yeah, we, I forgot we had to go back. Wait. Why did you go to Scotland el, is it Lochte? Monster oriented?

Elsa: 27:14

Not exactly, but I would watch the movie Highlander.

Randy: 27:19

I love that movie. That's one of our favorites. James and I saw that when we were right. We watched that, that that's a bonding experience for James and I. We saw it in Paris, uh, when he kicked him out.

Elsa: 27:35

Oh my gosh. You know, I saw that movie was like, I'm gonna spotlight. And then I went to Scotland because I want to become an Air Force pilot and I was into military stuff. I chose this master in strategic studies

James: 27:52

I am detecting at least a unifying theme that helps me make sense of the world, which is what you said about wanting to know how things work and your interests are broad, whether it's about science, about the human body. I think it's also gonna get into the human mind and what it means to, uh, you've already touched on this a little bit, you know, have meaningful experiences, but I wanna expand that to what it means to live a good life. Before we get to that though, I just wanna say that's, What I think makes you stand out, Elsa, besides that intense curiosity about how things work, is your willingness to actually pursue your interests in a very intense way. Most people don't get a PhD for fun just because they're interested in a topic or do any number of the things that you already described doing. So it, um, it's admirable that you've allowed your curiosity. To let you make choices that actually had an impact on your life and it's led you in all sorts of different directions, hasn't it? So yeah, let's talk about, I don't know what the best way to get into this is, whether it's on the national or international arena, in terms of politics and what people are getting themselves up to, whether it's on the personal level about how to live a good life. But I wanna get into the question of the. Maybe what you would say about what you've learned about how people's minds work, how the human condition is as such, and what consequences that has for us on an individual level and also on a societal level. I think you have some thoughts about the societal level topic, uh, but pick whichever entry you want and maybe you could tell us a little bit about what your curiosity has revealed in terms of, or the questions you're still looking at in terms of how people think and how we approach life.

Elsa: 29:31

we often hear, the fact that we need to live zen, that we need to live a mindful life, that we need to be constantly positive, et cetera, et cetera. I just say that we need. To live and, uh, we need to live in a way that does not get us sick, mentally or physically. I've been trying to figure out what I could do in order to keep my machine, the brain machine or the body machine, uh, in an equilibrium basically. For me, following the principle of a golden ratio and, um, has been one of the biggest challenges knowing, for example, when to do a step, uh, ahead or go a step backwards, step on the side, a right, left, or no step at all. And whatever other combinations you're gonna have with

James: 30:40

What do you mean by the golden ratio? Just to explain it. So to make sure we have the same understanding,

Elsa: 30:43

the golden ratio is trying to figure out what works best for you by benefiting also your surroundings. You cannot, I believe, be in a good state if those that surround you do not prosper. I believe in this phrase that we can do well by doing good. Meaning that we can do pro, we can be prosperous ourselves by Helping others to be prosperous as well. The question is, okay, who are you going to help? Because there are people that do not want to be helped, and no matter how much you try to help them, they are not, progressing. I really like the fact that through the debate on ai, the aspect of ethics, Has come, uh, has come to the surface quite a lot and I get the question often who's ethics and what ethics. That's a question. And with everything that's surrounding us, uh, it is difficult to not crack under peer pressure. And stay under the golden ratio equilibrium. So personally, I live in a way where I can offer a sense of serenity of creativity to myself and to those who are close to me and would like to walk the same way when I can progress as. A human being in the sense, I just wish that, more people would realize how lucky we are to be at a stage where we have a technology that can help us live better, but instead of doing that, we somehow regress. That's the impression that I have. We are too much preoccupied by. The looks. I know it sounds cliche and it's a different thing, looking good and healthy. And another thing being absolutely preoccupied by your looks. And I know that I sound very controversial now compared to what is out there, but I just. I'll just leave it to that.

Randy: 33:22

I think you're really on the theme with what we are trying to do with this podcast, Elsa, and really basically help having people in general like open their mind, be more forgiving, try to understand other people's points of view. And overall, and maybe this is too simplified, a way to say it is to be less selfish. And more giving, I think is what you're trying to say as well.

Elsa: 33:49

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, uh, there is, uh, a trap, uh, into this narrative that we have nowadays, okay, that we need to be mindful. But in several locations I don't see much of mindfulness taking place. So being authentically giving, it's a virtue that is not sufficiently, cultivated. Also at younger ages, and I do not know if this is a recipe of implosion, but it's a pity with the technology that we have available. We cannot nurture this authentically giving spirit, uh, in a reciprocal manner or more.

Randy: 34:45

We need a, we need an app called Tick Give.

Elsa: 34:50

Can you imagine? We're gonna create a startup and make money. Imagine how much you've been giving today.

James: 35:02

This gets to a fundamental problem with technology, which is that we can invent all the tools we want and all the great gizmos we want, but if we don't focus on human nature, the use of those is going to be potentially misbegotten in the sense that you, you haven't changed how you are in your head. No amount of any tool, ai, TikTok, or otherwise is going to make you put it to good use. So, That's a totally separate question in terms of how we as a society give people signals about what's important, how we as individuals raise our families and send a signal to our kids. For example, if you were to think about a couple of things that you've learned over your lifetime that you want to be sure you. In part to your daughters, what would be one or two lessons that you would say, look, this is what I've learned that I really hope you take over into your life. I mean, first of all, well yeah, just leave the question that way first.

Elsa: 36:04

When we fall, we get up and we continue walking. For me, this is because we will fall. Okay. And that's for sure. And I've heard people say that the second thing is built to fail. I don't like this phrase. It's one thing trying out things and make mistakes and learn from them and move on. And another thing, thinking that e even this, the phrase itself built to fail somehow may create a negative predisposition. In your system

James: 36:47

could just be something people say to venture capitalists.

Elsa: 36:51

Pardon? Yes.

James: 36:54

Don't worry. Your, your money hasn't been wasted. This was just a build to fail experiment. The second time will work better.

Elsa: 37:00

No, no, no, no, no. I mean, I'm not, you, you shouldn't be obsessed in doing thing with doing things properly. I'm not a perfectionist. Have you seen drawn? The movie Throne.

Randy: 37:12

Of course, we're all nerds here. You're in good company.

Elsa: 37:15

Cool. At a certain point it says, the thing about perfection is that, um, it is unknowable. Unknowable. It's impossible, but it's also right in front of us all the time. That's Kevin who said that? He said that. So that's the second thing that I'm trying to tell to my daughters that. You don't have to be perfect. And at the end of the day, perfection can be right in front of your eyes, but because you're so obsessed by something that you have in your brain, you may miss the perfection that's standing right in front of your eyes. So that's the second thing. And um, the third thing which, um, comes from the military actually, Where do I have this? Because I need to remember this. Okay. There has been a video on YouTube with Admiral McRaven, so this is something that during a very, very difficult period of my life, I was listening to and watching every single morning before getting out of bed. He said among others, you judge a person by the size of their hearts and not their flippers. Flippers being the slippers that the, special forces. people were wearing during the training. So he was comparing two groups, the, taller guys and the munching munchkin group that he called them. And they were making fun of them, but they outpaced and they outrun the group of bigger fellows. So when you see somebody, I'm telling my kids, you need to judge them by the size of their hearts, their courage. Basically, that's the third thing that I tell to my children to have courage, basically. Not to be fearless because we cannot be fearless constantly, but have the courage to walk through your fear basically, and handle it, and then he continues. Admiral McRaven, you need to take some risks. Never give up. Step up when the times are the toughest face down the bullies. And make your bed every morning,

Randy: 39:38

That's the name of the book, isn't it? Yes.

Elsa: 39:40

Because if you can't do the small things right, you won't be able to do the big things. Right. And as women, mostly, this is something that I, I, I may be biased. I don't know that I am maybe very, very wrong on that. But as women, I still feel that we need to try really hard to stand our ground. And this is something that I'm trying also to teach my girls. So all these things I'm trying to teach them and, um, they do make their bed, um, every morning, and if they don't, I tell them to do it.

James: 40:20

I do that my wife too. Those are inspiring messages. Uh, really very good. And it almost makes me wanna say we should stop there because I don't think we can top that in terms of, what good advice a person can get about how to, to live a good life.

Elsa: 40:35

If I may add, if I, if I may add one last thing, James. Because at the moment we, you had shared with me a question, what would be one or two decisions you have made, you've made that had the biggest impact on your life? I think what is really, really important is choosing the person that you're going to share the li your life with. This is extremely important and you need. To have the experiences ever since you are a young person. Good experiences to know that will enable you to know how to choose And you need to be able to choose wisely because this is going to affect how you're gonna walk in life through life. And how you're going to raise your children, especially if you're gonna have children with that person, share your household and whether you're going to progress or not. I think this is extremely important and I'm trying to figure out how am I going to help my kids choose the right person?

James: 41:43

It's interesting, right? Because when you're very young, the influences that are strongest on you are your immediate family, and you don't have any choice over that, right? Your parents are either gonna provide a certain environment or they're not. And then as you rightly point out after a certain age, and your girls are there, They're also heavily influenced by the people that they spend a significant amount of time with their friends, that their classmates at school. And as a parent or as an outside observer, you can clearly see the impact it has on them if they have certain type of friends versus other type of friends. You're suggesting or hoping that it's possible to shape that and to choose your friends. I wonder, do you think it is a matter of. Luck. Is it a matter of you attract somehow intuitively or emotionally, the people that you're suited for at that moment? Or can you indeed steer it, in a way that maybe as an adult you could look back on and say, oh yeah, I chose wisely. Uh, which of the three is it? I know you hope it's the last one because otherwise there's nothing we can do about it. But how do you influence the people who are then close to you at this formative stage in your life?

Elsa: 42:50

I don't know. The best, uh, is lead by example. You cannot be low infallible. So when you're doing an error, you admit to it and it's a heavy burden trying to be infallible and, um, and then is having them talking to other people. who can share a word of wisdom and also, um, trying to place them in environments that inspire them to be better as a person and also serve. As a role model they can look up to. For example, my older one would like to play, uh, wants to play basketball. She recently joined, um, her school team and she spent, um, a few evenings watching the documentary on Michael Jordan. So basically you asked me before what I would like to leave behind is a legacy. And not a reputation, a legacy of being a good person and having raised, two, humans into becoming a good contribution to, to society being healthy, at least emotionally and physically. So that they can share their, um, wisdom with others too.

James: 44:28

That's an admirable thing to set as a goal for life, and I think there are two aspects of today's show that are gonna appeal to our listeners, Elsa. The one is for everyone who's of our age and perhaps a parent themselves. The reminder that. You can live a very meaningful life at every stage of your life, and you are serving as a role model and take that responsibility seriously. And two, for everyone who has kids, some very inspiring words about how to help them, uh, uh, take the lesson from your role model, but also, you know, learn their own lessons. So I, I like that we're, uh, hopefully appealing to a pretty broad demographic. Maybe one last question. I know we keep saying that, but the one that Randy and I would like to ask, you're so interesting, Elsa, is, so we need to hear it. do you notice any mistakes that other people make that you would yourself try to avoid or hope that your children avoid as they go through life? Where have you seen people be passionately wrong

Elsa: 45:28

living for others and even though they pretend of not doing it? They do it and it's a different thing living with others than living for the others. are you

James: 45:40

thinking of this in the sense of a parent sacrificing too?

Elsa: 45:43

No, in general in the society within, with our friends, with our families. With our work, et cetera. It's another, it's one thing coexisting because you do have to coexist. Okay? And another thing, living only for the others or thinking only what the others may think, which all of us too. But this should stay at a level of coexisting. Doing things with the others, being with the others, not for the others. I think that's the first, I wouldn't call it mistake, I would call it rather, a misconception. Misconception of how life, of how life, should be. And I think the other thing that is also a misconception, conception, it's related to what we understand as broken, a broken person, a broken relationship, a broken connection at work, everything. There is nothing that breaks in terms of interaction. Without, having been preceded by bad communication, I think this is something that people really need to do an effort in doing, communicating even their feelings, even their anger. What I hate is that we seem to live, and here I express my emotions. We live in times. Where we are supposed to be among others, anger less? No. I mean, anger is a sentiment as long as it does not escalate. And if we have a good level of communication, we can get angry with each other and then let the team out. Off or out. What's the expression? Let the steam out or off out.

Randy: 47:53

Let this steam out. I think that's the expression. Yeah. Low steam off or let's steam out. Both are okay.

Elsa: 47:59

Yeah, exactly. And then just hug each other and no matter how irrational this may look to an external that would see maybe me and James fighting and then, you know, would say, okay, you know what the heck, come here and give each other like a hug or something like that. It's, it's not bad. And this is something that, uh, I really, it saddens me that we are going through times where we are supposed to feel less, less love, less romanticism, feel less in general. I think that's a great beauty. That's what I'm doing. I feel, I feel more. The less they tell me to feel, the more I feel.

Randy: 48:48

I also, I also think my money's on you, a fight between you and James before you guys hug,

James: 48:55

whether it's emotional or physical. Right. So, yeah, that's, uh, that's risky. that's, that's really great. Thanks for those two additions. living with others and, making sure that you look to the root causes of any apparently broken situation, which you could tie back to communication. So in that spirit, I'm gonna say, in the aid of good communication, you prepared a lot for this and we appreciate that. Elsa, is there anything else that we haven't discussed that you'd like to mention before we wrap up today?

Elsa: 49:25

you asked me what decision making tools do you think are most useful when making important decisions? There are, um, many gurus of decision making tools out there, and I will definitely not add to the list of corals. But what has helped me a lot and now I'm serious, is listening and reading what you write. James and I went through also what you, um, write, um, around him. And I find a lot of useful, information in there. And being a stoic has helped me a lot. Uh, you being historic me. Um, I'm an apprentice, stoic, I would say that's how I would call myself. So I compare to James. Yeah, so I think the best decision making tool is your gut microbiome, not even your gut, your gut microbiome. So you need to make sure that it's in a very good state. And I know it sounds very cliche, but you have to have a good relationship with your dad. Your gut knows, and, um, how can you keep it healthy? It's through trial and error basically. And in the episode four of your podcast, you were talking about certainty, where you talked about certainty and, um, you talked about the quest for perfection and acceptance of mistakes. And, um, this is where the inspiration also for Okay. Teaching my children that you don't have to be perfect, constantly came as well. when I'm processing information, my brain works in a cubes state. I have many Rubik cubes that I try to, Let's say put them together and then like 10 Rubik cubes, and then the 10, they become eight. And the eight six until I have one Rubik cube. That is perfect. so maybe this is synthetic analytic and synthetic kind of approach helps when you have to address a very complex decision and especially a decision that. Can have repercussions not only on your life, but on other people's life lives as well, when you have the responsibility for the wellbeing of other people. I'm a little bit lazy, even if doesn't look like I'm lazy, so I try to do things. Cor not correctly, but properly, so that I don't have to go back. I wouldn't do them allover. Again,

Randy: 52:14

I call that efficiency. I, I find it, I find it very hard looking at your bio biography that you're very lazy.

Elsa: 52:22

No, I, I, I am. I mean, seriously, I am. You know, there are moments that I'm like, okay, o gee, you know, I wouldn't very much enjoy Laz around for the moment.

James: 52:35

So that just makes you human, not lazy.

Randy: 52:40

Yeah, we had our doubts. You were human before, but now we know you're just human.

Elsa: 52:43

Oh, come on. Yeah. You never know. I mean, I like Terminator. I like Highlander. There you go.

James: 52:52

Mortal. All right. So those are some good decision making tools, Elsa. Pay attention to your gut microbiome. I don't know how many people are gonna give us that same advice, but it's actually quite good. I love the analogy of the Rubik's cubes in your heads and working them down to one that solves the problem. but of all your advice, of course, the one about reading my writing and Mandy's writing is clearly the best. So thanks for that and thanks for your time today. It was a lot of fun to share your thoughts and your emotions, and I think this, episode is going to prove popular with people for all sorts of reasons. So appreciate you coming on the show with us. Thanks very much.

Elsa: 53:32

Thank you. It's a true honor and I really enjoyed it.

Randy: 53:35

We'd love to hear what you think, so please comment on the show with your thoughts. We read all of your comments.

James: 53:40

Thanks for joining us, and thanks for subscribing. See you next time.