Mita Mallick
Sirisha:
[00:00:00] Meet Mita Mallick
Sirisha: hello everyone and welcome to the Women Carrier and Life podcast.
I am so excited to have Meta Malik with me today. She is a transformational leader. If you are on LinkedIn, you cannot miss seeing on the space. She's a change driver, and really highlights and advocates for the black and brown communities. She does it through her own podcast, brown Table Talks, but she's just written a book called Reimagine Inclusions, debunking the 13 Myths to Transform Your Corporation and Your Workspace as well.
Mita is a LinkedIn top voice. She writes Articles in the New York Times, the Washington Post, Harvard Business Review, and has worked in various organizations, including Unilever, Johnson and Johnson, and she's the Chief Diversity Officer. Now Vida, thank you for being on the podcast.
Mita: Thank you so much for having me.
Sirisha: It's wonderful to have you I've been watching your journey on LinkedIn and listening to your podcast as well.
So how did you get here?
Mita: I'll start at the beginning. My journey is that I'm the proud daughter of Indian immigrant parents. My younger brother and I were raised here in the US right outside of Boston, and I was the funny looking, dark-skinned girl with a long, funny looking braid whose parents spoke funny English until it wasn't funny anymore.
And in my community, for most of my upbringing, my peers made it very clear to me that I did not belong. I was. Physically and verbally bullied and those experiences stayed with me. I also didn't grow up in an era where I saw myself reflected in a lot of products and services, and so I wondered whose voice matters and why, who gets to choose these stories?
And that always really stuck with me. And because I was so painfully shy growing up. Which was exacerbated by the bullying. I just loved writing. I wrote a lot and that really actually drove my passion into going into marketing and being a storyteller, and then me transitioning into being a chief diversity officer, really thinking about, how you create end-to-end inclusion ecosystems, which I talk about in reimagine inclusion, but really that it's more than just about marketing.
It's about everything that we do at work.
Sirisha: it sounds quite painful and traumatic, what you went through as a child, It's driven your advocacy, it's driven what you're doing today, and you're talking about end-to-end because there's a lot of products now.
even if you look at like cosmetics.
you worked in a lot of beauty products. Yes, I do. Yes. a lot of discussion around even the Crown Act. There's, yes, there's spaces that are being verbalize now. It's even 20 years ago when I started the workspace, we didn't talk about most of it.
We didn't strike us how it looks and different, I came from graduate school here and I'm originally from India, so my experiences are somewhat similar but also quite different because of where I grew up
[00:02:42] How can organizations transform and we as individuals drive that change
Sirisha: So how do you look at the whole ecosystem? how can organizations look at the whole ecosystem when they're transforming?
Sure. One of the things I talk about in reimagine inclusion, debunking 13 myths to Transform Your Workplace. Is really about debunking the myth that this work starts in our conference rooms. This work actually starts in our kitchen tables in our communities.
Mita: When you think about inclusive leadership and how you show up, so there's this piece of, I was just having this conversation with someone earlier. Oh, but it's the company. It's the organization, it's the corporate structures. We all are the company. Those two things are not separate, so imagine, if each of us tomorrow decided to show up in one different way, what sort of tipping point and what sort of impact that could have
and so for each of us to really think about how can I be showing up differently and what should I be doing?
I think that's really important. The other piece that I really talk about is, you talked about my passion point. I'm a beauty obsessive now being in a world where there's so many products and services, offered for my skin tone and my hair.
You don't get that without ensuring that you have diversity of representation at the table and that all voices matter and heard, so you can be scrambling to serve communities. Right now in the US we know there's over 3.2 trillion of spending power with the multicultural consumer. The question is, how are you diversifying your workforce to reach those communities?
And then as I talk about in reimagine inclusion, This idea of, workforce, but also products and services and how racism and sexism show up in content and how we're holding ourselves accountable and responsible. And then also this idea of values. You can say that you are ready to speak about values, but are you ready to stand up for them?
You can say Black Lives Matter, you could put it on an Instagram square, but what is a company are you really doing to show your support and advocacy of the black community?
Sirisha: So two things that kind of resonated with me really was how the conversation starts at every juncture, you said at home and everywhere else.
Yes. And we're talking about this because even in a little space, like at my workplace where I used to work, For Diwali, we would all dress up. So it became a conversation piece. Like people were expecting it at work, they would actually even dress up with us and look at it. So the conversations can be little tipping points that you bring your culture in.
So I totally agree with you that you cannot rest it on the organization because the organization is us. Yes. Plus we are the ones who can change it from different levels. Absolutely.
[00:05:17] Being Quietly promoted..are you getting the Title & the Raise for your new role...Being allies to others
Sirisha: you talk about speaking up in the workplace very often. Yes. And looking at promotions and raises And oftentimes we are asked to do roles that are way beyond our scope, but not being compensated for it. So how do we bring that conversation to the table?
Mita: It's called being quietly promoted, right?
Being quietly promoted without the title or the money. I would say to you that I am tired of speaking up. I continue to do it because it's important. I want allies to speak up on my behalf, speak up on your behalf. Speak up on all of our behalfs. We are all an ally for someone. Just remember that you, everybody is an ally for somebody, and so if you see Mita is all of a sudden being quietly promoted, her team size is doubled.
Now she has two more scopes of work under her, and yet she doesn't have the title money or promotion. And if you are in a position of influence or power, or even if you're just a peer who has some sort of privilege, start asking those questions. Why are we asking me to do all this work without the title and the money?
What's the path to recognize value and retainer? Because I promise you, as you've seen me talk about public and LinkedIn, I'm not staying for that. I won't. No one will. And so I really want others to speak up on our behalf, and I want anyone listening today whether you're in an individual contributor role, whether you are leading teams, particularly, let's say if you're leading teams, you don't have to wait for Women's Pay Equity Day or whatever these days that we have, that we've all been focusing on, check the pay today.
Don't wait for hr. Go and see if the women on your team are being paid fairly and equitably. And if they're not, do something about it. Don't wait for HR to come to you. And if you're in ic, there are other ways you can support making sure that I'm getting credit for my work, that I'm being included in meetings where I'm actually, it's my project, right?
Making sure that my work's not being stolen or that someone else isn't being taken credit for it. There's so many ways also as an individual contributor, particularly let's say, if you're early in your career, you can still be helping. And then I will say, because I had this conversation with someone earlier today, I'm not naive in thinking that organizations aren't political.
There's a cost to speak up, right? There's a cost to speak up. You could worry about making a mistake, damaging your pride, your reputation. Does it cost you social capital? Does it co cost you political capital? But imagine if each of us were speaking up, cuz if we're all speaking up, then it doesn't matter.
If it's just one person speaking up, because then it becomes really a movement where people are really just advocating for each other in their organizations.
Sirisha: The allyship shows up even if you look at it in meetings, You are speaking up if someone has spoken over. Yes. How do you highlight them?
How do you give them credit for the idea? And that's where all the allyship comes in. To your point when you're getting quietly promoted, so many spaces watching for it and. I think it's important to note, to your point, it doesn't have to be within your circle of influence. Yes. It can be outside your circle of influence where you see something else in another group or an opportunity for growth for someone else to go highlight it to that leader saying, I think they need to be promoted.
Absolutely. Are you having these conversations or even stepping in? I know, and sometimes I've gone and said, can I have that conversation with them and talk about getting promoted because I think they're ready for the next level, and really highlighting that fact because then if their manager or their boss is not looking at them through that lens, someone else can highlight and say, Hey, they have the potential to do this.
Yes, we need to be talking about this individual. Absolutely.
[00:08:51] Equal Pay for Women...Who can be advocating for you
Sirisha: we wanna feel like acknowledged. We wanna feel valued, we wanna feel heard for what we are doing.
Yes. And in some ways I think you those with the power and I think we are talking about power in our own individual hands and power that lies within the organization and how it can go back and forth. Yes. And in some ways you can go and ask your manager, and I've done it in the past, if I was being paid if I was paying paid equally.
And it's something that you can ask to your point, you have to I think the caution for us is we are always wondering, what the blow back. We will see from this, how we will be perceived, the political capital, everything that we lose. So it is a bit hard, but you have to think whether it's something that you wanna do.
[00:09:30] What is your pay? Asking for a Raise..
Sirisha: Interestingly I quit my corporate job a few months ago and one of the first calls I got after that was somebody who I worked with who was asking me, who wanted to talk about their salary and if they were paying paid equitably and what they thought I was. You know what their compensation looked like.
And it was an interesting conversation because obviously I didn't talk about this when I was working with them. Sure. But they felt comfortable when I had stepped out to have this conversation saying, Hey, this was my raise. Does it make sense? Yes. And so it was a good opening to discussion to have, and I think it's also a generational difference versus the culture.
We don't talk about money. Sure. Where most of us, where we come from. But I think it's also generational difference because all the people who are entering the workforce now are very open about how much they get paid. Yeah. They talk about it to each other, but we are not conditioned to talk about how much we get paid.
We a taboo. Yeah. With each other.
Mita: Yeah. One of the myths in reimagine inclusion, it. Is the following. Why are you asking for a raise? Your husband makes more than enough money. And in that story, what I'm trying to tackle is the two sides of what you were talking about. Oftentimes we are still learning ourselves how to negotiate, how to talk about money, how to ask for more.
But there's also this myth out there that. Individuals from historically marginalized communities, let's say particularly women of color, don't negotiate, and that's not true. Oftentimes, we do negotiate and we're gas lit, we're minimized, we're dismissed. In that example, I share with the former boss who when I went and did all the work to ask to get paid more, the analysis, my accomplishments, what the market was offering for that job, that was his response.
Why are you asking for a raise? Your husband makes more than enough money. He had somehow found out what my husband did for work. And so I wish I had the courage to say, what does my husband's job have anything to do with this? But in those moments, sometimes you're stunned and you're silenced. And so that's also my question for leaders is what kind of bias comes up for you when someone approaches you to ask for a raise?
And are we paying people fairly inequitably or are there biases at play that we don't even recognize? So how can
Sirisha: leaders get trained or think about this intentionally? How do they come to this conclusion? Because we don't see the biases we have. And rarely do people come back and ask these conversations.
We're talking about allyships speaking up, talking about pay raise. These are uncomfortable topics. Yeah. Topics for people to approach and ask, and topics that leaders don't often see someone approaching them and asking. So how do they. I guess prepare themselves to respond properly
Mita: to this conversation?
[00:12:12] Unconscious Bias
Mita: I think it depends on the situation. What I will say to you though is that we all have bias. If you're living, breathing, you're a human. You have bias. And so even in a conversation with you, you might ask a question, I might have a first thought in response, and I encourage people to hold that thought and interrogate it, and then think about how your response might be different.
So when we go back to pay, for example, If you know my husband makes more than enough money or that he makes quite a bit, or whatever you've decided the story is in your head, stop before you think and ask yourself, why is that relevant to this conversation? And if Mita was a man, would I be asking that?
Because statistically we know the motherhood penalty for me, the price I've paid in my career for being a mother. Is very different than my husband, where there's a fatherhood premium. He's seen as more capable, more dependable, more ambitious. I'm seen as less ambitious, less capable, less reliable, all of those things.
So one of the things I do is ask leaders to really do self-reflective exercises and from the lens of gender as one example. If you are asking all these questions about women and candidates and women talent, would you interrogate men in the same way? Stop and ask yourself, would you interrogate men in the same way?
Mk. Overly ambitious. John, determined John. Thoughtful meda, overly detailed in the weeds. John.
John really rallies his team Magnetic personality. And guess what even cries when he gets emotional? Mita, overly emotional. Can't rely on her team. People can't rely on her. And oh, by the way, as I've heard, and I'm sure you've heard, oh, it must be her time of the month, right? Those microaggressions. Oh, that's why she's emotional.
So stop to think about like when you use those labels, how they might flip depending on who the person is and how they identify.
Sirisha: Yeah it's a lens. We, it's a double edge sword. I think we, we struggle with you. You cannot win either side of it because yes. You're either too aggressive or too assertive.
So there's this cartoon someone sent me, which I thought was very representative. It showed two women looking away from each other, typing on their computer, and one asked the other one, what's the difference between assertive and aggressive? And the other one says, gender. And I thought, oh my gosh, this is so there.
It's such a perfect way of captioning it because. I always, and I say this often in the podcast, damned if you do and damned if you don't. You cannot, if you're not aggressive enough, they don't, you're not valued. It's like a tight rope watch.
Mita: Yeah, a tight rope. We walk.
[00:15:02] How do you show up at work..Authentic self..what does that mean
Sirisha: Exactly.
You cannot express your feelings a certain way. Yes. So we all come very often. I struggled with it in the beginning. I came a certain persona to work because I thought that was what I had to do to be taken seriously. Yeah. But realize that's not exactly what helped. And then slowly over time, figuring it out.
And I exactly had that same conversation with someone this week about how we show up at work is very dependent on thinking how we wanna be perceived. Absolutely. And it's very hard to do that.
Mita: What you just mentioned about. How you thought people wanted you to show up at work, the emotional tax and the burden of constantly thinking about how you think you should show up for people.
Imagine the loss of productivity for companies. If I can just show up and bring the best version of me and be comfortable. I'm not worried about everything else. I'm worried about the work. I'm worried about making impact. I'm worried about my contributions, making sure I'm valued and recognized. I'm not worried about.
Did I say the wrong thing? I'm not worried about my tone. Did I take up too much space? Did I say this the wrong way? I don't have to worry about any of that.
Sirisha: Yes. And for me it was also the cultural being immigrant, the experience, because I wasn't quite sure how to fit in, how to occupy that space, how to show up.
So that was, compounded by this fact of trying to understand cultural differences. Because Asian culture is also about being incredibly humble, not being very loud. And then you realize that does not work in the workplace, does not. So how do. Yeah, how to use your voice is a whole different discussion.
Yes. So it's very very hard to transcend that line and it takes a lot of work to think about it and practice it and go about it. So Yeah. I'm sure a lot of people when they're doing that are struggling with that same space as well.
Mita: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
Sirisha: So some of the other myths you talk about are
when people think they're supporting women. You talk about maternity leave, we talk about other policies. What can they do and the way they show up to support. And it's not just men, it's even women supporting other women. Of course. How do we show up as doing the right things?
Mita: I think too often we look for company policies and programs to guide us, which is true.
We should. We need policies and structures in place. You should be looking at paid leave. You should be looking at policies where you're helping parents. Ramp up, ramp back into work, meaning three days, four days, five days as you're coming back from a leave of absence. And how you should define culture is are individuals doing the right thing by their teams when no one is looking, when no one is looking, when there's no playbook?
Or how are you showing up and treating your teams? When I had, I have two children, seven and 10. For each of those leaves when I came back who's watching your children? You're having a nanny raise them. How was the vacation? You already came back. Why are you asking about a promotion? You shouldn't be worried.
Focus on raising your kids. They're really young right now. I remember being up for a really big promotion, and all these leaders in the organization came to me and said, this is your time, this is your role. Go talk to your manager. And in many large organizations, there's politics.
Your manager has to sign off before you move off the team. And I was ready. His response was, Mita, that role requires so much travel. Your kids are so young, you're not gonna be able to do that job. And so the assumptions we make about. The ecosystem I have to support my family. If it was my husband, there never would've been a question again.
And so I think you have to look at policies and structures in place, but you also have to look up how you're showing up as a leader and fellow leaders. I think the other thing that we don't talk enough about, which I bring up in reimagined inclusion, is gendered ageism. So there's a lot of focus as there should be from the pandemic.
Women have dropped out of the workforce at an alarming rate, and I've almost lost my voice, as you can tell, like screaming about it. Like, why are we not talking about how many women have left the workforce? They had no choice but to care for their families. The other thing we're not talking about is how many women are out of the workforce because they're considered too old.
[00:19:08] Unconscious Bias, Ageism, Microagressions & Assumptions... how do we address it
Mita: And the bias that women face, particularly studies will show after 40 versus men. And it goes both ways, right? It might be that today, I seem young. I'm dressed young, I sound young. I'm professionally immature. I can't be put up in front of clients or I didn't wear enough makeup. I look old. My resume shows that I've worked at a company for 20 years.
Oh, Mita could never work at the startup. She couldn't keep up with the pace. Here. I'm concerned she doesn't have the energy. And I, so I think so much of this comes down to how the day-to-day interactions of. The biases and labels we put on people, and I think gendered ageism is one that we're not talking enough about in, in our workplaces, both from that she's too young and she's too old perspective, and I've rarely heard that in my career.
I could be wrong men's spoken about that way.
Sirisha: if that is the conversation going on, definitely It needs to be highlighted. Because you, it's we hear that conversation usually with respect to the movie industry and, those kind of entertainment spaces because it's very obvious.
Sure. When you look at movies and things, if you ever watch regional language movies, you can see that differential very clearly. But at the workplace, yes, because I, do I take them seriously or do I not take them seriously? Yes. I've had conversations where In various workplaces, in different organizations, different companies where I've gone to the workspace and it's, this is not organization, right?
This is individual where, sure. People asked me if I reported into someone when they might have reported into me, and the assumption was because of. Probably how I looked or I don't know, the way I spoke. And then sometimes they've come back to me after 10 minutes and realizing, oh, I didn't realize this was your role.
I'm like, yes I introduced myself as that, but I guess they didn't register. So they come back and slightly apologetic, trying to correct that space and. In some ways I find it, it's not funny, but I find it amusing that you even thought that when it wouldn't have even entered your mind to ask the gentleman the question.
Yes, of course. And I have to walk back on this conversation every single time and have this, reset. Yeah. And it's a hard thing to do
Mita: hard thing to do. To do. It is a very hard thing to do, one of the things our listeners might ask is, okay, great, you're bringing these things up, so what do you do about it?
And I think in those moments, sometimes it's hard in a public space because it could cost you your, again, political capital, social capital, you could always, it's never too late right to interrupt. You can always pull someone aside afterwards and say, you made this comment about. Mita being a new mom and not being able to take a travel role.
But have we asked her or do we make an assumption if somebody says, I don't think Mita can keep up with the pace here. I spent time interviewing. I don't think she kept up with the pace here. So you might say, okay tell me more. Tell me more about that. What in the interview indicated that she can't keep up with the pace here.
And so oftentimes all it takes is open-ended questions because no one wants to feel like they're attacking someone else. That can be very comfortable. But if you can ask open-ended questions. And let the person actually start to go through the thought process as Dia and I say on our podcast, brown Table Talk, focus on the facts and not the feelings.
So the feeling of professional maturity, energy, not dependable, not committed. Oh, I don't know if Mita would be capable of taking on that lead role. It's gonna require a lot of hours. Okay, so tell me more. Is there something that she indicated to you that said she wouldn't be up for that assignment? And so that's the way in which I, you know, anyone listening to think about in those moments.
How can you ask open-ended questions and coach people, and depending on where you are in your journey, this is my role as a Chief Diversity officer. I will ask the question. Okay. Do you think if Mita was a man, we'd be holding her the same standard? Let's think about that. And this is the job that we have to do is we try to think about building more inclusive cultures and organizations.
We're all gonna make mistakes. I've been called on things. I've said, I'm human, I'm learning. And so also just to sit with the feedback and say, huh, I think that was valid feedback and thank you for bringing that up, and I'm going to digest and process it and come back to you on what I'm gonna do next.
And differently.
Sirisha: I think if you continue the conversation, like you said, thinking about it, continuing it. And revisiting it, I think helps us have a discussion because oftentimes these are high stress situations, high spotlight situations, so you can't always do them in that ecosystem.
To your point, you step out and have the discussion and talk about it. There's this Harvard review study, we've all probably heard about it and seen it where they talk about the resume. The name has changed. Yes. But exactly the credentials are exactly the same.
Yes. And there's already an inbuilt bias on how we look at the application. It is. It's sad to say it's so ingrained. I won't say natural reaction, but there's a sort of ingrained reaction. But you have to stop and think. Think, why did you say it? Or even if you made a mistake and said it, you can always step back and say, Hey, that's probably what I said about Mita.
I thought she might not be ready. Let me ask her if she's ready. What is she thinking of? Sure. What support can we give her to accommodate her travel arrangements as she has a new family? That's a way to transform the conversation. Maybe you made a misstep. Maybe you wanna. Recorrect the conversation.
So you open the door and say, Nita, I know we, we asked you these questions, but we also wanted to be supportive of your, change in life situation. So we wanted to see how we can support you with this travel accommodations. If that was the case or. How else can we change the organization? That may be one way to tackle it, but to your point, asking them when they're reviewing the job descriptions is to see which one, because that's that leaky faucet, that leaky pipeline that happens.
People start with 40% women. Then you keep losing them along the way because when you're making hiring decisions and stuff, sure. Kind of tapers off as well. So it's hard to deal with that.
Mita: Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that advice. I love that advice.
[00:25:14] Speaking Up, Advocating for others..Being an Ally..how to do it iwith grace and without confrontation
Sirisha: we are talking about diversity and inclusion in the workforce and enabling more women into leadership roles.
We talked about pay raise and highlighting and making sure that everyone gets credit, gets the value, gets the spotlight for everything that they do. we talk about organizations ,So what can I, as a person do to make sure I'm having the conversation without giving up my space?
Still creating some safety net around me because I, I wanna talk about it from both aspects where I'm not worried about my social capital or political capital, and I'm willing to go all out. Some people might be willing to do that, and some people who are a bit more, they're newer to the space, they're still thinking about how do you establish, their footprint, how do they approach a lot of these conversations with their managers and things.
Mita: So I think it, when we talk about speaking up and being an ally, I think we said depends. In my role, it's important to me to do it publicly with kindness and grace when I can, and I see it happening in action. Oftentimes though, it might be one-on-one conversations. I am this person who always rewinds things in her head.
So I might be in a meeting and something was said or something happened and I didn't say anything. And I've done that too many times in my career. And now what I say to my younger self is go back and have that conversation. It's not too late, right? To say, you know this, I wanted to talk to you about Friday's meeting last week.
It was a great meeting and I did observe this one thing that happened and wanted to get your feedback and reactions, right? And so I recently happened, that happened recently where I went to a leader and I said, I'd love your advice on this situation. Here's what happened, and it was actually something that happened in her organization and she took accountability very quickly.
But I didn't go in saying, I know you did this and this is what happened. I actually said here's what I heard. And help me understand, right? Help me understand what the situation was. And so I think those are the ways in which you can do it. The other thing is, if you are not in a position to speak up yourself about something, find someone else who you trust who can help you do that.
Find someone who is in a position, like you said, who's more comfortable, who's more senior, who has more political or social capital, who will do that?
[00:27:24] How to be an Ally
Mita: And I always say we're everyone's an ally for somebody. And so depending on your organization, It depends on who holds the power cards.
The power chips in the organization. In many of our organization and in boardroom, it's still white men who are leading our organizations. And so to the white men in my career, in my life who have helped me, like there's so many of them who have been great allies who have spoken up. And so I would, I hope, and I know that more men will do that on behalf of all of us.
Sirisha: they are the one, we need allies from everywhere, Yes. Otherwise, we won't be able to move ahead. And how can you continue to support someone else and make sure that others are supporting you as well? And sometimes going and asking for the help, people may not realize that a situation occurred.
Maybe you frame it and say, this is what I thought I heard, or This is what I experienced. I wanted your perspective on it. Or What can I do to change it? What can we do to change it? Because people may not be privy to all conversations. It's the he said, she said the, it's like passing the parcel this game, but by the time the message is conveyed to the last person, it's been transformed.
So if you are the one experiencing it, it helps to go and have this conversation with someone. I'll give you a real
Mita: practical, yeah. I'll give you a real practical example. I talk about it on the Brown Table Talk podcast. Early in my career in one division, it was my friend and myself, we were the two Indian women.
And I always was, I'm gonna just make the name up. I was always mistaken for shepa. We looked nothing alike. And so after a while, how almost dehumanizing, dismissive, almost erasing you. Like you don't even respect me enough to know my name correctly. And we also would be included in the wrong invites. And it became this department joke, but it wasn't funny.
And I remember one day sitting down in a meeting. And one of my peers said to me, oh, you look upset. What's wrong? He was a white man and I said, oh, this happened again. And so the next time we were together in a meeting and it happened, he actually said, Hey, can we, this is enough. This isn't funny anymore, guys.
This is, it's Mita. Her name is Mita. And so that's an example of I was upset in the moment and I was junior in my career. This is easy for me to say. Now some of you might be thinking still not easy, but I have more power and privilege than I did back then. And so I expressed it to someone who felt really comfortable standing up for me, and those are the moments that are tipping points that add up.
If each of us could do that every day for someone else, we would work in drastically different organizations,
Sirisha: and it's all of us, Who hold that power and who hold that voice. Absolutely. Anyone at any point can do it. You could be the junior person in your organization who sees it from a senior person, but you could do it in a such a way that it does not call someone else.
Yes. Because you obviously that's the fear you have, but you could do it in a sort of gracious way and sometimes maybe to your point, you said you rewind the conversations. Yeah. Maybe even practice some of these conversations ahead. Absolutely. Like we do it for asking for a raise, so practice them.
Yeah. I think oftentimes we are caught in these situations and this happens to all of us. We wish, oh my God, I wish I had said this then yes. And then yes. You're thinking about it three days later. Six months later, yeah. Or many years later. I'm like, certain conversations are stuck in my head.
I'm like, I wish I had said this then, but I did not. Yeah. Too late to revisit it. They don't remember it anymore.
Mita: And to your point in that situation that I just shared with you all, that was a white man who was a peer. He was just as junior as I was. We were only very early in our career. And so you don't have to be the ceo , right?
And too much of us are waiting for the corporation, the c e o, to make change. This is all of our companies, right? Like we, we spent too much time at work and we work too hard at work not to protect the cultures that we're trying to build.
Sirisha: Exactly and all, you work with your colleagues and they understand it.
They probably see it and they're not sure how you feel about it. So express your feelings to someone you trust and then they can step into the right spot for you. Absolutely. Because now that they know you, it, it does make you feel uncomfortable or unheard, then that's the right place to do it. Yes.
[00:31:23] We need Sponsors..not just Mentors...how can you get Sponsors
Sirisha: So one of the other things is when we talk about mentorship, there is a lot of mentoring programs or a need for mentoring programs, but not a lot of sponsorship.
What do, how can how do we tackle this? Because I know that sponsors are often not known because it happens behind closed doors, and I've had amazing sponsors. Obviously you've ha we have people who help us grow. Sometimes we may know who they are, sometimes we may not know who they are.
But also getting access, I always feel like access is the hardest part. Yes. Because you dunno who is talking about it. So how do you get access? Like how do you, what can you do? I mean there's organization, but I think what we are trying to always circle back is organizations. Have a space, but we also own our space.
So how do we continue to pick up more of it? So what can we do to make sure we're getting sponsored and heard? I
Mita: love this question. One of the myths I debunk and reimagine inclusion is, We need more people of color in leadership. Let's launch a mentorship program. And I think all of us can relate to no matter what's happening in the organization, sometimes launch a mentorship program, that's the solution.
And here's what I will say. I have been over mentored and unsponsored in my career, and I'll say it again over mentored and unsponsored, and some people take offense to that. But what I will say is I would not be here. I wouldn't have been invited to be on your podcast if I didn't have so many amazing mentors to support me.
But here's the difference. A sponsor is someone who actually has the power to advocate and play an active role in influence in your career. Mentors come in all different shapes and sizes. They're inside your organization, they're outside your organization. A sponsor is typically someone who's two levels above.
They have pretty large p and l. Budget. They're sitting in the room when talent decisions are happen, and there's someone who has political capital in social capital and is willing to use it for you. One of the most game changing pieces of advice I was ever given by my career sponsor, Gil Gail Tifford, she said to me, Mita, do you know who's talking about you when the doors are closed?
I said, people are talking about me when the doors are closed, right? And so I actually never thought, when you have annual talent planning or reviews, do you actually know when this gets uncomfortable? Cuz people are talking about me. Who's sitting at that table other than your boss? Especially if you don't have a good relationship with your boss, who else is gonna be vouching for your career?
Because ideally your boss should be sponsoring your career. We know that's not always gonna happen. So what I would say is I started to think about my career. In this way, because a lot of companies, and I talk about this in reimagined inclusion, you can actually form sponsorship programs, right? You can do that and diversity, equity and inclusion.
HR is involved in that. But what if, to your point, you're looking for a sponsor, really think about what key initiatives you're working on and who else might be interested in. So let me give you an example. Let's say you're a senior marketing manager and you have been tasked with looking at. The spend you've had on media investments over the last year and what the ROI has been.
Okay? So you're gonna go and do that. Now here's really interesting. What if you went and met with the Division C F O and shared with them? That you're working on this and asked for feedback, so you start to attract attention to initiatives you're working on, and you start to gain interest. I might have a meeting with you the first time and you'll say, oh, this is really interesting.
You gimme some feedback and then you say, I say, do you mind if I incorporate this feedback and come back to you? You'll probably say, yes, do it again and again. Then when you're in a meeting and someone brings up my project, you'll be like, I've been meeting with Mita. Because here's the thing, and particularly when I talk about for white men, Who feel like their voice doesn't count in diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts.
It absolutely does because you are going to be looked at as a more inclusive, cutting edge, innovative leader. If you were developing leaders, I. And bring them along with you, particularly women of color, right? I always say with teams, you shine. I shine, right? So you wanna find projects that are mutually beneficial because you, as a sponsor, you're only gonna invest in me if you are gonna get a benefit out of it.
And so I could give you example after example of where you can look at someone's project and you could think about who else in the organization might be interested other than the boss and the immediate team. And so I started thinking about how could I draw these people in? Now, you don't need 10 sponsors, right?
You only need two or three because you want people who are gonna be vocal and active. You want people who are going to be invested in your work. They're gonna say your name when you're not in the room. They're gonna open the door for you to meet with the C-Suite executive. They're gonna put your name on a list for a job you didn't even know was open.
So that's what sponsorship looks like, and that's the difference between sponsorship and mentorship.
Sirisha: Yeah. Because mentorship is not opening the doors. It's opening doors in your mind for what you can achieve. Yes. But you're opening the doors in the workplace for what to get done. Yes. And when I think of sponsorship it's a conversation I have with a lot of people when I at work and when I was even outsiders.
You need to be having skip level conversations. Yes. You need to be talking to your boss's peers. You need to be talking to their boss's peers because. Think about it this way, if you are getting promoted, you're gonna be your boss's peer. He cannot actually give you the job. Yes. The person above has to give you the job and two levels
Mita: above
Sirisha: skip level.
Exactly. Exactly. And then when you're in the room and they're doing your talent review, you want others people speak because your boss is gonna advocate. Everybody's gonna advocate often for their team. Yes. So you need other voices to support you. And then you go and like you said, have these conversations or work on a project and they have, may have nothing directly related, seeking their feedback or taking your project idea to them, maybe they can implement some of it.
Those little sparks of ideas really resonates. Because then people, I, even from your own experience in mine, like people, that's when they speak up and say, oh, I've heard that. And I always find it interesting that when I've gotten roles and found out, through conversations who's advocated.
Sure. It's always surprising to see who's advocated because sometimes, often it's not the people you expect to be advocating for you. Yes. And sometimes I've had other colleagues tell me, oh, I didn't necessarily have a great relationship with them, but that has nothing to do with your work. You might not have got along because you.
You had strong opinions that differed, but sometimes a diversity of thought is probably what they appreciated about you and were willing to vouch for you cuz you were willing to stand up for yourself. So you never know who the advocates or sponsors are in a room. And oftentimes it's interesting to find out, but it's just good to have a conversation and sometimes even ask what is that conversation going on?
Yeah. These can be like I said, uncomfortable, if you feel comfortable with your boss or someone else. Start having this little discussion saying, how do I show up? What is that feedback? Because I think the feedback helps us to know how we show up at work, because oftentimes our perception of how we show up is quite different definitely from how they perceive us.
And having that discussion.
Mita: One of the things I would add to what you're saying is I haven't always had the best relationships with bosses. I've had some really great bosses and some bosses that, they haven't looked out for me or advocated for me, and I've gotten pretty good at managing politics over the years.
So in that case, if you're listening and you're trying to find a sponsor, but you don't think your boss would be supportive, you can always, in my example of the media investment, say, oh, by the way, I bumped into Mark in the kitchen and he was asking me how things were going, and I mentioned this product project, and he wanted to see it.
So you can diffuse the situation because the other thing I've had happen is bosses who get threatened or intimidated. Why are you meeting with the Division C F O and you just lightly be like, oh, because you know what? When they go to Mark, mark isn't gonna say, Mita approached me.
Mark's gonna be like, yeah, I'm really excited about Mita's project. He's gonna wanna be in on the win, right? And so he's not gonna say, oh, she came to me with da. He'll be like, oh, I love this project she's working on and I'm gonna be helping and coach her. And so then if your boss is threatened by you, that's how I've worked to try to minimize it.
Sirisha: Yeah. Tell them that you're working on it together and you're bringing the division together. It's a spotlight on the organization and the teamwork as well. So that they don't feel left behind. Absolutely. Such, that's such a great point to think about because it's hard to navigate this, and I think it's good for you, for those of you listening, if you're thinking about how to navigate these conversations, practice.
Think of some of the stories that we've been sharing that Meta's been talking about, and find some people in your space, in your workspace that, in your work environment that you feel like are trust and safe spaces to have these conversations in little bits and see how to work it out or even outside of it, because that's the only way we are gonna figure out how to do it.
It's hard enough. To do it on your own. So this has been really good. So just I wanted to quickly sum up before I ask Miha these final two questions that I ask every guest. So Mila's been talking about, advocacy, about being allies. We are all allies of each other. Very important to remember, we all use political and social capital when we show up at work for ourselves or for others.
Think about how you wanna use it and how to leverage it in a safe space. We understand there is a potential fallout that you can face from it. So think about how you wanna do it, and you can do it in various ways. So I think that practice of the conversation helps, and we will make mistakes. We will rewind conversations, hoping we could replay it and do it again.
And sometimes you can revisit them, go back and revisit them with the people so that the next time that. Incident happens because obviously if it's not fixed the first time it is gonna happen again. Now you can diffuse it and tackle it at that point. So there are so many ways, and I think reimagining inclusion is very much a start to finish.
Don't leave it to the organization to make the change. You are the organization. So remember, you have the power as well. Yes. And hold that
Mita: space. Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.
Sirisha: Thanks, Mita. So this is a question I ask every guest. What advice would you give your 21 year old self?
Mita: Do it afraid.
Take more risks. I really was raised to be risk averse. I'm trying to raise my children differently, but I wish I had taken more risks early on and not be so afraid of what other people would think of me. Or my decisions.
Sirisha: Yeah. I think that almost always holds us back. Some of it is our upbringing. Yes.
Some of it is what we are told, and it is a transformation to go at it. So I have I just wanted to say this because you brought up your children. So I have teenage boys and this is a struggle and it's a challenge, but I actually appreciate it because giving them space to express their opinion is something.
They're teenagers, let's be clear. So it's a challenging space sometimes, but I feel like if they don't have it at home, how are they going to show up tomorrow at work and suddenly transform themselves and speak up? I'm like it's a fine line. I walk there that tightrope and walking at home sometimes.
But they need to have that express space to do that. Yes, as well. And What is the one word you'd use to describe yourself?
Mita: My word of the year is unstoppable. Wonderful. Unstoppable. That's the word. I'm gonna, I'm sticking with it. Unstoppable.
Sirisha: And I think that's exactly how you're showing up, so that's amazing.
Mita: Oh, thank you very
Sirisha: much. Thank you. I see you on LinkedIn, so I know you've written the book. How has that journey been? It must be a lot of heavy lifting. I
Mita: bet. So my journey to write this book was, I wrote the book four years ago and I received so many rejections and nos. People said her writing's really great, but she doesn't have enough followers.
There are too many people like her writing books like this. Someone said, come back when she's written a book, more like Cheryl Sandberg. And so I received every rejection possible and at my lowest point, my good friend, land fan who runs Community of Seven, also go check her out on LinkedIn. She said to me, Just keep doing what you're doing, create content, create community, create conversation, and the book deal will happen.
And I talked about this in a recent episode of Brown Table Talk. My good friend DC Marshall has a book deal with Wiley. And after we launched Brown Table Talk, A few seasons in Wiley asked her about me, and there's an email that says, meet Malik in the subject. And it says, your co-host sounds amazing.
Does she have a book deal? And so I didn't let the dream die. Don't let your dreams die. I've been writing ever since I could and I've always wanted to publish a book and my first book, hopefully many to come. And so rejection, my friends is redirection. So you will end up there, just maybe not in the way you expected.
Sirisha: Yeah, be unstoppable like Mita said, and congratulations. Thank you. I'm sure it's one of many books and it'll transform not only people and organizations and I wish you the best.
Mita: Thank you so much for having me, and thanks for the impact you're having with this podcast. I appreciate you.
Sirisha: Thank you.
And so how can people reach you? How can they order your book? Where can they find it? Yes.
Mita: Please go to Amazon. There is a pre-order link now, please place a pre-order. Pre-orders mean a lot to the author and indicates to the publishing house how much they should be printing. And also because this book is for anybody who is committed to creating a more resilient, inclusive organization.
And I know as you said, it's going to help a lot of people on their journey to be more inclusive leaders. And you can also follow me on LinkedIn.
Sirisha: Yes. So definitely follow the conversation because you will learn a lot and from Milita and all the ecosystem around her and the conversation that goes on, even in her feed.
So thank you Milita for being here. This was wonderful. I'm so glad we got a chat as well. Thank you.