Episode 118 - Kill the Nice Guy w/ Traver Boehm

“When good men get their wants and needs met, the whole world benefits.”

Meg’s off holding it down at her feminine leadership retreat, so I’ve got the mic today with one of the most solid brothers in men’s work, Traver Boehm from Man Uncivilized. 

We went straight in. 

No tiptoeing, no ‘be nice so everyone’s comfortable’ shit. 

We’re talking about how men lose themselves trying to please women, how to stop living as a servant to the queen, and what it actually takes to reclaim your mission. 

We got into the initiations that strip you back to your bones, the kind you don’t buy a ticket for, and why they’re the making of you if you’ve got the balls to stay in them. 

This is about remembering who the fuck you are and leading your life like it matters.

🔥Here’s What We Dive Into:

• The epidemic of men living as “servants to the queen” instead of sovereign leaders
• Why your ego’s dream life might burn you to the ground, and how to find what your soul actually wants
• The terrifying leap from control to purpose, and why it’s magnetic as hell
• How to step into your full power without destroying the people around you
• Dark nights of the soul as sacred gateways, not tragedies
• What real initiation looks like (hint: it’s not a weekend workshop)
• Why the medicine of an initiation has to be integrated back home
• The role of elders and how to rebuild real community around them
• Finding joy even in the middle of your deepest tests
• The dangerous gift: being willing to risk your identity for something bigger

🔥 Love this episode? 

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🔥 Let's stay connected:

Follow Meg: @the.meg.o

Follow Jacob: @thejacoboneill

Follow the podcast: @sexloveandeverythinginbetween

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Transcript

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It's personal development. It's not relational development. So like there's a whole other piece of the puzzle which is like, okay, I've done the work on myself, but as soon as I step into a relationship, guess what? You're back to square one. You now have to go through that while being witnessed and have the vulnerability of someone else seeing those parts of you, because the person in the room that you did in the way that you did it for ten minutes. Yeah, that was a good reference point. But now it's time to go back into the real world and actually live it. And I'm a big advocate for personal development, and I'm a big advocate for plant medicine. I'm big advocate to men's work, women's work, and I'm working on ourselves. However, none of that matters if you can't bring it home. Yo yo yo, lovers. Welcome, welcome, welcome to sex, love and everything in between. Where the O'Neals. You're here with Meg and Jacob. And this is the place we have really uncensored conversations about sex, intimacy, and relationships. We're super excited you're here. Enjoy this. Episode. Hey, lovers. Hi. Hey, lover. Hi. How are you? I'm so great. Yeah. How were you? Well, we tried to record before. And we had one of those classic moments where. But I don't wanna say. I don't wanna say it. Why don't you want to say it? What do you. Mean? Cause I was like you. I don't really like you. You didn't like me? No. I had no. Resentment. But. But what? That we moved through it. We moved through what? We used an age old technique of love. Fucking the frustration away. Well, now we realized that we would. Recording podcast. We got ten minutes in, and then we were just like this. Well, I the headphones are annoying me. And then you got annoyed at me because the headphones are annoying me. And then we just actually realized underneath all of that, we missed each other and we were feeling disconnected. And then you took my hand, and without words, you pulled me into the bedroom, and it was glorious. And now. And I have really missed you. Yeah. It's been. Never about the. Headphones, guys. It's never about the dishwasher. It's never. About. It's probably because you haven't fucked for a while. It's just. Really. Well, that's what it is for us. What the fuck? Now that you shouldn't use sex is like, I don't. We don't use sex when we're fighting as a way to, like, come back together. But when there's moments of tension, I think underneath that, like, right then the truth of the moment was, oh, well, for me, it was like, I really miss you. And I just feel like our bodies have been near each other for weeks. But we have an actually. Like two ships in the night. It's actually like, whatever that is. It's felt that way because we've both been really sick. And then, oh, she's been sick. And it's literally just been like this tag teaming, you know, of of parenting and I feel like one of us in bed really sick of rundown all the things. And yeah, I think today just being and we often we used to say this a lot when we first started the podcast that, podcasting is like sex, like we can't have we can't truly have sex without a hot being fully there. And a podcast is the same if we start to like podcast and we're just, like, not fully there and our hearts aren't there and there's just connection, something's going to end up happening and we'll stop the podcast and we need to reconnect in order to just, you know, meet each other in that space. And it's the same with sex. We can start to try and have sex and then realize, oh, our heart isn't here. Or like something's in the way. Something's clogging the channel. As we say. Let's just say we got the plunger out and unclog this channel. We unclogged the channel. I would say there's a blockage rather than something clogging clogged I like. I know you hate that way. And so yeah, we I'm excited to have this conversation now. Perfect. Let's have it. The last thing I'll say is intimacy is hard when everything else is like when you've got nothing left. Like, if. That's. Yeah. Like, there's a genuine like, devotion to the family's nervous system, but that, that comes at a cost. And our intimacy was the thing that is really felt like it just we haven't, it hasn't been a priority. Yeah. And then like you make this feels like the first time we've actually been alone without totally. The nanny has our son right now. So yeah. Without your work being a priority, my work being a priority or some other thing requiring us to focus on it, it's like, oh, this kind of felt like the first time we actually sat down and like, looked at each other like, where. I miss you. But we're lovers. Yeah. Forgot that for a moment. Yeah. And I think that's something that, you know, we've been in a season in the last few weeks where we've been sick and, like, it's been really challenging. And it's not what life is usually like for us, but, I think this, you know, the clarity or what's been illuminated for me in the last hour is like, oh, this is really our intimacy is so fucking important, not just for us as individuals or us as a couple, but for our family. And just like the. The. The aliveness of our family. And it's something that we need to be prioritizing. And I don't know if scheduling, but, yeah, it's like it's just there's not as now as parents running two businesses, our life is very full. It's something that there's not as much space for it to just unfold naturally. And I also think being physically sick, like, totally. I think that because before being sick, I felt like we were. There was a lot of sponges. There was a, like, a lot, a lot of like for me, it was, you know, like the intimacy of, like not necessarily having to be penetrative sex, but like there was a weaving of our hearts. There was a there was a really. Hey, I'm. We're lovers. Yeah. And I feel like when a sickness happens, it's like the love is no longer about how connected we are to that. Let's just get through the next minute. Suffice. Yeah. Let's survive this week. Yeah. Intimacy is hard when you're in survival. Yes, totally. And you know me when I'm in something, I just feel like that's what it's going to be like forever. So when when we have been in survival for the last few weeks and then I felt disconnected and that we haven't had time together and our intimacy is hasn't really been there. Part of me goes. To see forever now is a loss is like. And clearly no. No, this too shall pass. Yes, this too shall pass. I like when. You remind me of it that. You should actually get that on your wall. I think. I'm going to say a. Tattoo, like across my. In the inside of your eyelids. I think that'll be good for you. Yeah, yeah, I was just thinking huge across my forearm. Yeah. This on. Your back? Yeah, I see it. Yeah. Why? What are you doing behind me? Just. We had normal missionary sex, by the way, I wasn't none of this. Me with my back to Meg. It was normal missionary. Channel pegging you. What would be the I got? Not. Oh, maybe. I don't know what you're doing behind me. That's why I'm like. Guys, I didn't we. Parents now, we, I did just do a post last night about how anal sex. Yeah, I worried if anyone read that because I collaborated. He invited me as a collaborator. I was like, no one's reading this as if I wrote it. You know? It was how. Anal sex helped me give birth. Yeah, I know. I think people know how to. Well, I just let's just say I hope no one. Missed what you thought your mom would have read it. And I was going to edit the post and say, this was written by Meg. Everyone, not Jacob, obviously. She, So we don't even need to podcast. This is fun. We can. Yeah, banter back and forth. Let's talk about generosity. Yeah, let's talk about generosity. You part. We've come a long way in the last 15. I feel so much better. And it's so true. Sometimes you just need. I think that was like, in my head, I like I had to leave the room because I was frustrated. And I went in and I lay down in my office, and I was like, why the fuck is this happening? Why the fuck is this hard? I just wanna get this done. So I, I was like, I want this to be over. Intimacy. I'm like, I don't want to have to rebuild the connection. So we had to do the podcast and I was like, yeah, but you're gonna have to rebuild it eventually. So why? Why can't you do it now? What's stopping you? Like, why is it. And I was like, I, I just need to go in and be honest and share where I'm at. And I feel like when I do that and I like, let my self be seen in the frustration, I can then be like, oh, I know what we need. Yeah, I know what we need. And like, we don't need to sit down, do a podcast. We need to rebuild the connection, rebuild the intimacy, and then the podcast will just happen. And I think that's like, really? Again, we use this a lot, but like, what's the truth of the moment? Like, we could have tried to push through because right now we're paying our nanny to be with our son, and we haven't done a podcast in a while. And it's like we we in quotation marks needed to be doing this, but it's like, okay, that that's not the truth. And we can continue to try and like, but our heads up against that and do that. And we probably could have sat down and just had a very, you know. Dry conversation. Yeah. And like been quite disconnected. Yeah. So it does take a, a lot of surrender to be able to honor the truth of the moment. And what, you know, the relationship actually needs in that moment. 100%. Yeah. And I know we're going to talk about being generous with each other and generous in partnership. But I just want to speak into like you. Yeah. You left the room and you didn't really give much context, but you were frustrated. And I just think in those kind of moments too, like you came back and I had the option to. I could have shamed you. I could have, you know, made you feel really wrong for storming out. I just think there's a generosity in choosing to open, even in those moments. And me also trusting that that wasn't you trying to fuck with me or that wasn't you trying to be mean to me. That was just you doing what you needed to be able to, you know, be in your body in those moments. And I think so often that, our reaction to our partners reaction then just creates this, like just amplifies everything. And a moment like that, you know, you could have come back in and I could have shamed you, and then we wouldn't have been able to have that opening, and you would have closed back up. Yeah. I just think that that devotion to opening, even when your partner's closed or even when your partner's reacted, that devotion to opening is just everything. I think there is like a really important piece here of like, you've got to be willing to break free from the reactivity. Yeah. And for me, it's like, cool, I need to step away from here because I'm really frustrated and I'm like, I need to break my like I need to come back to my own sensitivity and feel what's here for me. Yeah. Otherwise I'm going to vomit it all over you. And this is the piece that a lot of men don't fully, I think, understand is like, if you're going to remove yourself for a time from the interaction or the space with your partner, like what you do when you step away is very important. Like if you just go out there and just. Reaffirm the story that the other person is in the wrong, instead of coming back into like, why am I feeling this way? What's here for me? And I was like, oh, I'm frustrated because I have a thousand things that I need to be doing. And on some of those, I don't even want to talk and do this. Why don't you want to do the podcast? Because everything's inconvenient right now. Okay, well, what's it like to be the victim of your reality, Jacob was pretty fucking. I actually quite like it because then I get to blame everyone else. It's like, okay, cool. Like, let's come back to Santa and then come back and like, don't be afraid to voice what's annoying. You're like, you having that thing with the headphones? I was like that. That annoyed the shit out of me. It's like, why can't you just get on with it? Why can't you just be more like me? Like, well, that would be bad, because then there'd be two of us, storming out. They wouldn't work. It's like, I had to just like it. I just had to be heard in my frustration. Yeah, and then you get to do with it whatever you want you get to, then. Well, either react or open. And I think that that was the piece where it's like, cool. Like I then asked you what what you're feeling, and you were feeling disappointed and a little disconnected. And I was like, this actually isn't about anything other than the fact that we don't feel we're not on the same team right now. We're two ships in the night. That I said that night. Two ships in the night. And I was like, oh, what do what have we done in a while? That love is normally do? Oh, we haven't, like, literally laid down in bed together. And just. Lie. And just like, being able to touch each other without the fear of, like, a little baby, like waking up or a baby like rolling. I've been looking at a single. It's just like, oh, wow. Like I look, like the roll of lovers has been parked for a month. Okay, cool. Let's that. That's the answer. That's what's beneath all of this. If we don't reconnect as lovers then this podcast is going to suck dick. Right. And like not even knowing if you pulled me into the room like not even knowing if we would, it was almost like willing to sacrifice the podcast for what was true in the moment. And now we're back here feeling liberated and connected and we're podcasting. But it was like we needed to be able to put the podcast on the altar and sacrifice that to be able to say yes to, to what the truth of. The moment was. Yeah. And that's where like depth has to be a priority. I mean, we could have pushed through like the realities. We could have pushed through and done a podcast. Yeah, we could have just stayed on the surface. Spoken about generosity. Given a few examples. Got through it. All right. Done. Let's see. I'm going back to what I was doing. You're like, yeah, but I'm bi. And it would have just been another way for us to another way for us to stay on schedule, but missed the whole fucking point of being in relationship. Missed the whole fucking point of what it means. Like why we're here as humans, which is to experience these beautiful, hot, cracked, open, liberating moments which enhance. And I'm like, why, why, why do we have to like, why did why didn't I just know that that was this? Oh, because we've been sick. We've got a child, we've got businesses. Yeah, there's an inundation of noise in the modern world. Like these are this it feels of I feel victorious. I'm like, Even in the face of all the shit, we still chose that. Chose that. Yeah. Yeah. I feel good. I, yeah I think now as parents like before becoming a parent, I think we had a lot more space to be able to meet what was going on. Yeah. Yeah. But or if there was like disconnection. You know, we had four hours to fuck around. Yeah. And we, there wasn't any other thing asking for our attention so we could be like, oh, there's something here, and let's talk about it and let's spend the morning and I need this from you and other. And not saying that's impossible now, but there is. And not that there's a sweeping under the rug, but there's something that asks for our attention and our devotion, sometimes a lot more than always. A lot more. Yeah. Oh, oh, it's a lot more. Than, you know, what's there between our heart. And I think this is where some parents can spend their entire partnerships like that, you know, never actually addressing the disconnection because it's always, always, always, you know, the children, the children's children, all the other life stuff. And, you know, I'm really glad that we're devoted to even amongst the noise of parenthood, all the fullness of parenthood still being attuned to that and still finding the time to, you know, meet that and be with that. Because like I said before, I think that is it's so important for our family, like our intimacy and our connection is the absolute foundation of our family. And I do believe it maybe that it's not more important than our son, but it is, a huge part of his thriving. Oh, totally. And our family's thriving. Yeah. If we're not connected, then it's like he he's little nervous system will feel that. Yeah. And he'll be like, what is the what's this feeling that doesn't make sense. We're meant to be all together and. I just want to acknowledge, like for so many men, I don't know if this is the same feeling that for men, it would be so easy to look outside of your relationship to get your relief to, like, completely bypass intimacy in your relationship. Because there's, there's there's something gritty there that needs to be addressed. And it might be that you need to bring your truth. You it's something that's frustrating you. Or maybe you need to hear, the hurt in your partner's heart. And she needs to be able to feel safe to bring that. And maybe there's something there that neither of you want to acknowledge. But once you do, that's the thing that's going to liberate you and provide you that deeper connection that you're looking for that takes conscious effort, that takes a conscious choice to do that. And it's so much easier to go and watch porn. It's so much easier to check out and go and say, you need to go to work or say you need to do this, or say you need to go to and do this or whatever your your regulation tool is, whether it's skillful or unskillful. It's like in those moments, yeah, I took like five minutes to go and be with myself with every intention of coming back in. That's that's the like that's the piece that I believe men need to understand. Is that, like, you have a responsibility to the role of love in your relationship, regardless of all of the other things that take, take up your time, energy and resource. And if you don't nurture that, if you don't water that garden and you don't tend to it, you will find ways to get your needs met outside your relationship, which will be dishonorable, which will be distorted, and will most likely lead to you losing the thing that you you've been building this life for. Yeah. There's something like being devoted to intimacy again, especially now. As parents. It's inconvenient at times. Massively. Like it asks. To. You know, sacrifice things or, you know, ask for energy that we feel like we don't even have to give. But it's like. And again, I think it is moving in relationship with a consciousness that like how important that connection is and what becomes possible and, and the space that's freed up in our own bodies, but the space that's freed up in our home, in the field of our family, when, when our hearts are really connected and how much that is worth the effort. And it's worth the inconvenience. And it shifts a lot of the. I have to do this to, I'm excited to do this. This. I know what's on the other side of that. When I lean into that conversation, when I, when I, when I choose to open my heart, when this part of me that's like, just fucking keep it closed and just get on with it. Yeah. Yeah. It becomes very much a, transactional experience being in the house. It's like, oh, you do this, I do this, you did this, other this. You didn't say it. Okay, cool. Let's. I'm going to bed. And there's no there's no warmth. There's no, richness in the relationship. It becomes, bland and, mechanical. Which is what a relationship was never meant to be. A. Okay. Should we talk about generosity? Let's do it. What are we going to begin with? This? I think when I speak about. Oh, yeah, when I talk about generosity and partnership with practicing this, it's really moving from, existing in relationship with this scoreboard and keeping track of. I've done this, so he does this or I've, loved him. Really? Well, why isn't he doing these things? To love me? And just like this comparison, this, this scoreboard keeping score, this everything needs to be equal and fair. Which again? Now, as parents, I can see there's so many more opportunities to keep score. So many, dude, so many more opportunities and responsibilities to, try and keep it equal or be comparing, and how this holds us back from. What am I trying to say? This holds us back from a deeper level, I believe, of intimacy and connection and, yeah, a deeper level of intimacy, which is can only ever be born from being. Devoted to. Generously offering ourselves into the partnership and attuning not to what would be fair right now, in this moment. But the better question is, what's the truth of this moment? What is this moment asking of me? And so just. A very just, just very normal example of this is maybe, it's your, like, turn to wash up. Yeah. Or it's your partner's turn to cook and wash up, but you can feel as you come in the door from work that she's had a really big day. She's feeling disconnected, she's a bit overwhelmed. And what is going to be best for, you know, you can keep things fair. You could just pretend you can't feel that in the space. You can could pretend you can't feel that in her body. And you can let her cook and clean up, or you can attuned to that and be like, generosity would look like, even though it's not my turn, I'm going to say, hey, babe, go run a bath I've got tonight. You know, I'm going to cook, I'm going to clean. You go, you go nourish yourself. I'm going. To order sticky rice. You know. My gosh. Yeah. My favorite right now. And how much like I can even feel that in my body. And you're like, so fucking great at this. But how much, how much that can offer the partnership in moments like that, when we're able to, instead of holding on to what's fair or, what was schedule we actually attuned to what's true in the moment. And that does mean sometimes putting down our preferences or, yeah, letting go of what would be equal. But being devoted to what's true and how much that can feed our relationship. I really would like to just like you're redefine gender. Like, really, like, really anchor the definition of generosity that I feel we're talking about here, which is this idea of giving without expectation based on what the truth of the moment is asking. Oh, I love that. So that's I really want because generosity and will I'll do all of this because I'm the generous one in the relationship. So this is where you don't want to fall into the fact that one of you is the generous one on one of you is the one that never does fucking anything. Because there's still a scoreboard under the generosity. On the generous one. That's just what I do like. This is you can how much I give you. And I don't even care if anything in return. That creates, like this self perpetual. Like I need to suffer in my relationship to be validated. I need to be the one that's giving, giving, giving. And it's actually an inability to receive. My hand up there, like, that's something that I, I've fallen victim to, or I think that I have to be the savior of you and that the relationship. And it's like no generosity is a is a it's a relationship. It's a trait that the relationship gets to cultivate. You cultivate that in the relationship. Generosity is not just one way. It has to go both ways for it to actually work. But it's not. It has to be a two way street, but it's not, a two way street that you need to go that that's that's about I have to go this way as much as I go this way. In those moments, everything. Eventually I rather than saying everything bounces out. I think everything harmonizes. Yeah, I love that. And I think that that's more what we're looking for here with generosity. But just to reiterate, the definition is like generosity is the, you know, your ability to give without expectation based on what the truth of the moment is asking you. And that's back to, things not always being convenient. Like, that's not always convenient. And I think we've we have been devoted to practicing this for a long time in our partnership. But the last say like month has been really, really challenging, you know, family with sickness and fullness and all the things. And I know in my own practice, in our partnership, I've had moments where I've had to really consciously practice being generous, even when it was inconvenient, even when there was part of me that didn't really want to. My practice was, how can I be generous to you in this moment? And an example of this is, I think it was a few weeks ago. You had been sick. And then we were kind of. Oh, and you'd been away for like five days. So I was with our son just by myself for five days and so couldn't really get a lot of work done. And then I was excited for you to come home. So I and we were sick the week before, so it basically had two weeks where I couldn't really work. Then you returned home and I was excited to get back into work. And then there was a day where I was scheduled to work in the afternoon, and I could just feel that you were really depleted. Like I could feel that I could just feel you needed nourishment and I could feel in my own body that the truth of the moment wasn't for me to hand my our son to you and go, okay, I'm going to go work. The truth of the moment was, this man needs nourishment, and I'm going to sacrifice my afternoon of work because that's the truth of the moment, and I'm going to generously offer him this time. And I think I said to you, I don't I don't need you to be with me this afternoon. But you do have to. It's a non-negotiable that you go and get a massage. You need to go and nourish yourself, and you need to go and be looked after. And, that felt there actually wasn't a part of me that didn't want to do that. But in my head, like, logically, it was like, I should be taking this time to work because I've got lots of responsibilities and I haven't had a moment to work in weeks. And, yeah, but I couldn't deny the truth of the moment and what was being asked of me, which was to offer you that, yeah. And I think that that feed. I love those moments. That moment felt so delicious to me because I get to I'd get to gift you with something. I can feel that you really need, and you don't really get to appreciate and not. Yeah, that felt better than working. I also think that there's like a long term focus there. It's like, if I do what the schedule says, is that actually going to be what's good for longer term for the family? Like where, where am I? Where is sticking to the script actually like just going to create problems down the track? Yeah, I think this is where like consciousness is such an important piece of related like relating. I think there's like so much, rallying and there's so many people that advocate for emotional expression. And like, I just need to be more emotionally, I need to, expressive. I need to bring more of my expression. Expression? It's like. Yes. And in that, as you develop more emotional expression, you also want to develop your consciousness, your awareness. So like in that moment you can be like, okay, cool. This is what the schedule says. And beneath that, here's what the truth of the moment is asking me. So rather than being fair, can I be generous? Yes. And that yeah, that consciousness is so important. No, I think we talk about consciousness is like a masculine, quality. But this isn't just like men having that be. It's like, this is so important if we want to be a generous partner and if we want to love our partner really well and that means being able to attune to their body and have consciousness about what's unfolding in their emotional body, in their life in that moment, so that we can actually feel and hear said for the truth of of the moment. I think a question that is really beautiful that with I think we've been like, not even consciously asking, it's just been natural to us. But just like bringing words to it in the last few weeks has been like, what's, what's best for the nervous system out of our family right now? And so even in that moment of like, oh, what's best for the nervous system of our family isn't for me to go and work and hand you our son like you're depleted. You need nourishment right now, that that's what's best for the nervous system of our family. And, you know, your generosity of when I was sick last week, like, you know, you just took us on without question. And for four days, we're just deeply with him. And you had to sacrifice a lot of work and a lot of things that, you know. You could have, should have. Been doing lots of responsibilities that you had. But, just the generosity of this is the truth of the moment. It takes a lot to be a conscious parent, like in those moments, like it's like, oh, that's parent like being being a good parent is not. It's like there's there's a consciousness that comes with a little bit like consciousness can almost be like a, almost a burden. Sometimes it's like, oh, Meg sick, I know that. Oh, she needs presents. Like I'm going to be. I'm going to be that I'm going to fall. I'm going to forgo my my work, and I'm going to prioritize him and making sure that you have space in like we went away for a and like this is where like I think this I want to talk about like another form of generosity. We went away for a friends weekend. And I think thinking that that weekend I was like, oh, I could have been probably a little more generous with where I, how much how, how should I actually felt? I think I could have been more generous with like how I was feeling and let and sort of fill you in a little more. And I would have liked that. Yeah. And we went away on this and I and I, I've wrestled with this and I'm like, I really in hindsight, upon reflection, I was like, I could have actually been more clear on like, hey, I actually can't I can't do this. I can't do this. I didn't. If we're really wanting to honor the nervous system of the family, like I'm, I'm not in a position where I can go and do this weekend as much as I want to. And as much as it's like it's something that we've been looking forward to, I know that for me, in the in that the truth of the moment was, hey, I actually just need to stay at home this weekend. And, and I think that's like the generosity piece is like we really we're really looking for as much, as much a connection to the truth as we are a, a connection to, giving whatever it is that we're being, it's being asked like, you can't give generously if you're not connected to what is deeper than the the scoreboard of what's deeper than the plan and what's deeper than the schedule. And I think that's such an important piece of it. And there's a vulnerability to that as well as like letting go and surrendering and submitting and all these things that if you're anyone like anything like me who wants to be in control and keep thing keep the show on the road, make sure we get to where we're meant to be going. I think there's a real vulnerability in in generosity. There's a real I actually need to let go and be okay with whatever is here right now, rather than what I want to be here right now. We're talking earlier about this around like, preferences, like, we can either operate in relationship, always trying to get our preferences met, like what we want met. We can operate like that. Or we can operate from what's the truth of the moment, which isn't always going to be our preference. Yeah. I was talking with a friend recently, about how initiatory it is to honor a man's. No. And how, in our experience, like, you never used to say no to me. And it was just like the make show. And you would always just, you know, make it work even if you didn't want to, and then there came a time in our relationship where you really started to, to express your know, so maybe it was you didn't want to go to a particular event, or you didn't want to do something with me or, you know, whatever it might have been. And that was such an initiation to be the kind of woman that didn't try and manipulate you into changing your no to a yes or manipulate you, or control you into me getting my way. And I think this is like the the inner princess of a woman that wants to tantrum and like, manipulate and is very good at tantrums and in manipulating and, controlling her way to get what she wants. But. That's actually, I think the deeper I'll speak for myself, I think the deeper part of me doesn't actually want my preference to be met in that moment. I want to be the kind of woman that can deeply respect your desire and your no, or what's true for you, and what's true for the field of our relationship. And so I think I don't know where I was going with that, but yeah, I think this is being able to I think sacrifice is a really beautiful word, in this context, because I love the etymology of the word sacrifice, meaning to make sacred. And sometimes when you're in devotional partnership, you're going to be asked to sacrifice your preference, like what you want for to make sacred the relationship, to make sacred the truth of the moment, to make sacred the union, and whether that be it's late at night and your partner wants to go deep into a conversation. And that's actually the truth of the moment that you're really tired and you don't have much to give, but you're going to sacrifice, you know, you just sleep in that moment. Your preference of getting eight hours to actually be with what's present, which is she needs you. Yeah. She needs your presence and awareness and depth in that moment. Yeah. Or for many women, it might be okay. My, my partner's saying no, he doesn't like, you know, that would have been really challenging for me if you would have said, hey, I'm I'm not I'm not going to the friends weekend. And I don't know how I would have been by the with that. But I know deep down if you would have, if I would have really felt that that was your truth, I would have had to respect that. And, you know, sacrificed my preference which was to have you there even over that weekend because you were really sick and you had to be in the bed the whole, the whole time. That was, I had to sacrifice the whole time and be with the heartbreak of like the weekend that I'd expected and the weekend that I was like, you know, looking forward to for weeks and weeks and just be with the be with the pain of that and the heartbreak of that. And yeah, I just think this is this is devotional, this there's a maturity to to navigating partnership like this from this place of like it's not just selfish and from the eye. And it's not just all about getting your preferences and needs, not needs, but preferences and wants met. It's really about can I honor what's here right now, in this moment? Yeah. It sounds as though it's like it's shifting from like I'm at the sit on, on on the center of the universe in this relationship. I'm on the priority. May me, me to how can we create a container where both of us are in service to the relationship? Yeah. And in service to the connection that we share. Yeah. And sometimes that's going to look like, hey, I need to I need to show the fuck up this way. Go. Hey, I, I know that this is what we need. I'm just getting him what I'm keep doing and and. With this, with this approach where it shifts from. It's all about me to what is it that the relationship is asking of, of us. There's a whole new. Place that becomes available. One where you have someone that is not looking out for you, but is looking like into the deeper parts of of you and the relationship where you have someone like and there's something about it, like it's when your partner consciously knows what you need more than you do and they're able to like, then honor that. There's it's a kind of, healing love. It's very healing. When your partner knows you better than you know yourself. Are your partners aware of what what the relationship needs? And they can guide both themselves and you to that? And that's a that's a really loving experience, even though you might be like, no, no, no, no, it's not a part. And then when you finally actually receive it like, oh fuck, I didn't know, I didn't know we and I needed that so much. Can you give an example of like the way you've done that for me or where I've done that for you? I think even before when like I came back in, I was like, oh, I could easily just like say, no, I'm fine. Let's get on with the podcast. Do you tell me? You tell me. Yeah. I'm wrong for leaving. Yep. I shouldn't have been angry at you. Yep. No. That's fair. You're nervous system. Yep. That little buzzing. Yep. No, you're right, I shouldn't have. I shouldn't take that. I could have easily pretended like my feelings don't matter. And swept up swept and like rip and put you back at the center and said, hey, actually, you're right. You were the one that was like, you have every right to be upset. I shouldn't have reacted the way that I did. I could have easily put you back at the center and you have it. Okay, cool. Yep. He. And yeah, he's he sees it. I'm right. Yep. He's acknowledged that he shouldn't have done that. Yeah. Okay. Cool. You're back in the the priority seat. And then it's like cool. Like that. And then I could have sat here and I could have forced myself through the podcast and kept my, my trefoil down. But instead I was like, no, I need to speak. And then I was like, oh. And as soon as I was like, oh, we and this is not this is not the answer to our problems all the time is like, oh, we need to fuck. Oh we have an opportunity to go and have sex right now. We don't get opportunities like that like we used to. Oh let's this is what, this is what. This is what's being asked to me. I'm like and then in that moment I was like oh but then I'm going to have to get in there. Hopefully she doesn't fucking need 45 minutes warming up. She going to fucking I got to like kiss her just a little too close to her pussy. No no no no no not yet, not yet I do. I don't want you to go too fast. And like I had, all of this is like, fuck it. Who cares? Let's just see what happens. Like, all of the stories of, like, is, is this going to be harder than it needs to be? Yeah. And it's like. If you have to don't, then just do it. Don't tell her that we're going into fuck. Just take her in there, throw on the bed and move with the confidence that you know exactly what the relationship needs, and you're willing to be so fucking generous with your energy and your leadership that there is no denying that you know where both of you need to go for the connection to be reestablished at a depth that allows this podcast to happen with the utmost ease. And I think, you know, there's times where you've done that, and I wanted to stay in control, or I didn't fully surrender and offer myself into your leadership. Yeah. And in that moment, as soon as you took my hand, I was like, this is, you know, this is happening. I'm. I'm offering myself to you. Like I'm surrendering and trusting that you can see where we need to go. But I think there's been many times, as I've healed the part of me that loves to stay in control and doesn't want to let go many times where that there's part of me that wants to fight and, like, resist and close up and make you work for it'll make it almost like, sabotage the experience. So I think it takes such a, as you know, in majority of the women that come into my world, a women that want to deeply be able to receive a moment like that from their man, but their bodies aren't familiar with that, their bodies aren't familiar with letting go. And so I think it takes such a conscious effort to to receive a moment like that. Yeah. I think it's like it's attunement to like, I could have come in and like, push the micro phone out of your waist, grabbed you and like, tried to drag you in there. Yeah. And I think that would have felt too aggressive or too, like forced where the I came in, I was like, I held my hand out and you got to like, you almost got to give yourself like I was like, here I not I'm giving you permission. I'm willing to be led. Yes. Where if I had have come in and grabbing that we're going to fuck because that's what you need inside. Know I'm the leader. I'm the leader and I know what we need. It's like, shut the fuck up ticket. I think there's a difference between. And I think this is really important for both men and women to realize. But there's a difference between a man. Trying to lead a woman from a place of, self service. Is that a word? What? What am I looking for? Like, serving himself? Yes. Like we're going to do this. So this is the quickest way to get it done? Yes. Versus a man leading from a place of will in deep service to the woman that he's leading in that moment and to her body and her relationship. Yeah. And the relationship. And so I think sometimes. Yeah. I'm never saying to a woman, override your instincts when you can feel like a selfishness in his leadership. No. Like, sometimes the truth is, are I'm not able to surrender and open because he's actually just being a dictator in this moment and say, I'm leading because I'm the masculine. But actually, he's not using any consciousness or attunement to what your body needs or what the moment is asking for. And so, yes, sometimes your inability to surrender is great fucking information. It's not that you're not being feminine enough. It's not your body doesn't feel safe in that moment, and you can feel that it's not the right texture for your body to open to. And they're not the right, you know, texture of late is not true leadership. Yeah. I want to, You okay? If I take the conversation back to a place we spoke about before? Yeah. I just want to take it back to generosity and how, when we spoke, what was the definition you gave of generosity before? Generosity is to give without expectation. Based on what? The truth of the moment is asking of you. And I think that without expectation is so important because oftentimes, like in those examples that we used, me saying, okay, no, the truth of the moment isn't for me to work today. It's for you to go get a massage and for me to be with us on, you know, the days in which you looked after our son while I was sick. It's one thing to do that and show up as that. But then it means nothing. Then it totally overrides that whole experience of generosity. If the next week you come to your partner and say, hey, you haven't done anything for me this week, and I, I did that thing for you last week. You know, I, I looked after our son for four days while you were in bed, or I sacrificed my work so you could have a massage like that's generosity with the intention of scorekeeping. That's generosity, not unconditional. That's conditional generosity. I'm going to do this, but I'm going to remember it. And I'm going to be watching and hyper vigilantly watching to check if you repay me and that's such an energetic thing. And it can look the same on the outside. It can look, you know, the same generous act. But if you're holding that scoreboard energetically in your body and in the field of the relationship, it's it's not the it's not the same at all. And it's not going to ripple out and have the same, you know, impact on your intimacy and connection at all. At all. How do you I think this is. I think this is a challenge for a lot of couples here to put down the scoreboard. What would you say to couples that are really challenged by that? And do you find themselves keeping score and wanting to keep things equal and and watching their partner to see if they're as generous as they are and just caught up in that whole paradigm of relating. I think that and by that I mean, the first thing is like at some level, you're going to keep a scoreboard. Yeah. Some point, like you, no one's immune to it. So like, you know, can all of a sudden never have this internal scoreboard ever again. I think. Well, I know the this the pace that I like to develop within myself is becoming aware that the scoreboard is, is there. So when I start to feel like I'm extending myself beyond what? I'm beyond generosity. So like, I've been generous I mean, generous. Yep, yep. Yeah. And then I get to a point where I'm like, I don't have anything left to give. Yeah, I'm still trying to be generous. And that's when the scoreboard starts to get the notches on it. And I'm like hang on. Why am I overextending myself. Because I think I have to be the generous one. Where am I not allowing myself to receive in this relationship. Well where am I not honoring myself as much as I'm honored. Like what. Where, where, where have I like made me being generous. The truth of the moment, no matter what. Where is that now? The story, the actual the moment is for me to say, hey, I need I need help. Yeah, yeah, I think any time, like, my invitation would be any time you notice. And yeah, I love that you said that. That no one's immune to not having a scoreboard. And I've noticed that in parenthood, it's like, oh, how often even when you go away, how the part of me comes alive that's like, this is unfair. Like, this is I do more than you. And just noticing that part of me noticing that that's there is like the first step. And then, choosing not to lead with that pot, almost like going, what's underneath this are there's a desire maybe I'm desiring to be seen in a certain way or a lot of the time. For me, it's appreciation. Like underneath, I just want I just want you to really go. I thank you so much for for staying home and being with I saw and then you do this. You sent me a beautiful message. Being like I couldn't do the work that I do without you and like your choices to, you know, be with us on. And, so underneath the school body's like a desire. Like what's underneath that? A desire for appreciation. Or maybe it's a desire for some time alone, or, you know, when you feel the school board kind of taking over, it's like, what's the truth underneath that? Is that is there something that you're really needing a desire that's not being met or something that you haven't spoken into? Yeah. I think there's a truth. Rather than being like, this is unfair and I do way more than you, it's like, I'm feeling the desire to be looked after. I would really love a day where you really look after me. Like the different. The different. Yeah. The just the difference in in offering that in a partnership. Yeah. Oh even like on on Monday just gone when you had that email that you wanted to finish. You're in a flow. Yeah. And you're like, I just need another half a half hour, 20 minutes and I'm like, well, technically the afternoon was mine for work and that's what. But I'm also like, you're going to be so much more present with our son if that email's done. Yeah, you're going to be so much more open and, and there's going to be a sense of like, once that loops closed, you're going to be able to really drop in. So I was like, what? Where what what? Where can I let go and sacrifice this 30 minutes in service to the nervous system of our family? Like, how can I know that? And okay, cool. Awesome. So that just means that that 30 minutes that I've sacrificed, either I get to just be a little more efficient with my work. Yeah, yeah. And that it's like it's it's about like, calibrating with, with, with, with the, with what's being asked of us. The one thing that I'm really where I was like, my preference would be to work every single day. My preference would be to, like, not have to do anything that like, I don't want to have to look after the I want to be working all the time like I that's my if I really was honest, which feels like I just want to work. I just want to crush it, build a business and then like look after you guys, like that's what I want. However, there's also a part of me that's doing that because I think I have to, not what the truth of the moment is asking me is like, is that how you actually want to live your life, Jacob, or is that just what you believe? A man should do? I'm like, well, I do want to make sure that we're looked after. I do want to have the I do want to be reliable and dependable and responsible as a man. And I also do want to be present. So what am I where am I forcing? Where are my preferences kind of forcing me into a box or forcing me to be something all the time or be something no matter what, rather than actually being present? And that's been a and that's I think I'll wrestle with that for a long while. Yeah. I don't think that's something that's just going to go away. I think I'm going to have to continually develop my ability to be with that, to be with like okay cool. There's always going to be more to do. There's always going to be another task or another thing on the to do list that doesn't get done today. But guess what? This tomorrow. So can I trust that I will get Will. I will get to the things that need to be done when without. Overriding what the moment is asking. Yeah I don't know where I was going with that but yeah I think that's just what I, I just think it's important to like know your preferences. Can be almost like not necessarily authentic. All that can be like borrowed like preferences are not necessarily the deepest desires. And yeah. And I think that's where, you know, I use that example of like the princess of a woman early sometimes it's like that's not actually what the depth of us wants or what life is asking of us. I think that's the truer expression. It's like we can have, you know, even in parenthood is a beautiful example, like my preference isn't to wake up every two hours. Yeah. So last month my preference would be to get, you know, eight hours of sleep. But the truth of the moment is my son wakes up every two hours. And of course, I'm not going to ignore that. Right? That's what life is asking of me in those moments. So I will say yes to it. And so I think, yeah, I think there is just such a that the word like maturation comes to me and, you know, especially because we're in a season of parenthood. But I think this kind of relating like devotional relating where it's not just I, I'm going to get what I want. It's. Yeah, sometimes I'm, I'm devoted to this union, I'm devoted to this partnership. And sometimes it's going to ask me to sacrifice what I want for what is true. And that's not always going to be comfortable. That's not always going to be convenient, but is it's what is being asked of me. And I feel like there's a part of us that gets fed in a way that we will never get fed if we're just constantly getting our preferences met. It's like when we stop trying to, like, manifest the perfect life and we actually just become a vessel for being initiated by life and letting life move us in and and surrendering and opening and saying yes to whatever life offers us. Like there's such a deep that's such a deep spiritual practice, this part of us that gets so fed when we offer ourselves to life in that way, versus relating to life in a way of like, I must get everything that I want and all I must manifest the perfect life. It's like for me, I the way I relate to life now is I will offer myself to you. And I know that's not always going to be me getting what I want. And there might be me tantrum being a little. Or I might find that really challenging and gritty. But I know I'm here to be in the spiritual practice that is life and offer myself in that way. And I think this is where union and partnership and marriage is a spiritual practice, and we get to widen and deepen our experience of ourselves. And, and just become more of who we're here to be because we're not always getting out, because we're not always getting our preferences met. Yeah. But we're still choosing to, you know, be in that moment and offer ourself to that moment. Okay. That feels good. There was one other thing we spoke about before pressing record around, do you want to speak into that or leave out a lot of us, around, sometimes that, like hierarchy of. Another conversation? No, I think we can touch on it and maybe we can do a longer podcast. But yeah, I think there is almost like the I know better, in these moments, like, they can be like, almost like this, guru complex at one part. And it takes as well as, like, I can see that you're triggered, you're in your stuff. Go and deal with that. Okay? That's not mine. Okay? I'm not actually going to take responsibility for you on what you're feeling, and I'm going to step away and you can go and figure that shit out. I'm sorry. I hate that so much. I'm sorry. I'm so passionate about it. I hate it so much when people like it. It's people in the self-development industry and the self-help kind of world where it's suddenly like, that's yours. And don't bring that into this space. Like, that's your wound and you're bringing that wound. And, I can't help you with that. Like I can't give you, I can't. That's yours to go in. Give that to yourself. And I understand that, like, I understand that, we're here to offer ourselves what we really need and all that shit. But I also. And this is how we practice in our partnership. Like, you have never turned me away. You have never said, like, this is, you know, that's like, no, don't bring that here. That's gotta go get coached on that. Or like, yes, there's moments where you've gone, hey, what am I trying to say here? Yes. Those moments where you can see that, I could be really deeply supported by someone outside of our partnership, but not in a way of, like, that's inconvenient going. There's a difference. I. This is where achievement is important. There's a difference. So there's times where you come to me and you want to be saved, and there's other times where you want to be seen. Yeah. And when you come to me and you want to be saved, I can't save you. That's not my responsibility. I can't save you from the, the initiation that life is offering you. Yeah. But if you bring something to me and you and you bring it to me in confidence that I am your safe space for you to fall apart, for you to be frustrated, for you to be free, for you to feel whatever it is that you're feeling. It's that's that's that's so much, that's so much more, that that's a completely different experience. So there's a difference between, like, I'm outsourcing my, my, my own shit to you and want you to, like, fix me versus, hey, I'm bringing this to you because I feel safe with you and I, and I trust that you'll be able to hold me in this. Yes, I hear that. And but I also think we're talking about when, when someone is outsourcing. To then not make it a coaching moment. Oh God no. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Like the I think so often because of course this is going to happen. I think especially for women, women can come in they want to share and they there is sometimes a part of a woman that wants to be saved and wants to be really deeply reassured to wants to be told for the thousandth time that day that you love her. And I think I don't love when some people go like, you know, that's you trying to outsource right now, and that's you wanting my love. But you need your you need to love yourself. Like. Yes. And just tell that fucking woman you love her. Just tell that woman for the 100,000 times a day. Hey, babe, I love you. Do you, do you feel what I'm saying? And that. Yeah. I also think that it's like, ensuring that, like, you know what? Once again, what's the truth of the moment? What's the truth of the moment? Because it's like, yeah, if she comes to you and, needs to hear that. Yes. But then there's been times that you've come to me and you actually like, hey, my love, you're acting like a, like an absolute brat right now. Like, there's times where it's like, okay, cool. What do I actually need to. But rather than push you away, where can I, like, pull you in, like, hey, come here. You're being a little fucking brat, you know that? You're good at this. You know what you're capable of. Don't fucking do it. That. See, I think I'm just trying to speak into when. Like, I will. I get pissed off at. Yeah. The the the self-help personal development ness of, like, coaching someone in the moment. Like, I. Think what you're talking about is like, where can we be the reassurance that our partner needs as they develop a stronger sense of self. Yeah. There's like that and I don't bullshit. Sorry to interrupt you, but I, I, I believe things heal relationally. Like, yes, it's really powerful to be doing our own work and we can't always be relying on our partner to be, you know, the sturdy source of our our power and our reassurance and all these different things. And some like, not like sometimes it's really beautiful to see that your partner is trying to outsource and then just go, hey, babe, I love you. Like, hey, I like, you're a bad bitch. Like, you got this like to not make it, I'm just not about people turning away their partner in terms of like, hey, that's that's yours. You're outsourcing to me right now, and you need to go into your room, and you just need to love yourself more closely associated. You're my savior. You're my love, my place. Yeah. There's a once again, there's a sacrifice that if you want to be in relationship, you will have to sacrifice something. Yeah, it's going to cost you. Like. That's just what? That's. That's life. People think. Oh, I know, like two sovereign beings. It's like, yeah, but. No, I. Don't like that. I think that's, I think there's just like so much and. I'm not here. Yeah. If I don't want to talk about coda all the way codependence like, not like we're consciously choosing to need each other. We're consciously to want each other. We're consciously choosing to create a container where we're both standing alongside each other and looking into the the fire being like, what is what needs to go on this today? Yeah. And I feel like I don't know if I've done the conversation, I want to have justice in this moment with this last bit, and I feel like I need to formulate my thoughts and feelings around this more. But I just think there's something. So yeah, I, there's something the devotional partnership and union goes beyond you're a sovereign being and I'm a sovereign being and I'm independent and I've got myself and, I'm, I'm whole and healed. And this is two whole beings together I like. I don't like that. It's almost like a spiritual will 5050 relationship is. It's like it's like a it's a it's a spiritualized second stage for lighting. It is. And I, I think it's yeah, I think it actually then in a moment where the moment is asking you to be really fucking generous, be someone's fucking spine or unwavering like, you know, unwavering, pillar of love in that moment, you know, there could be a moment where you can really fucking show up for your lover and heal them in a way that they've never been healed before and love them in, in a way that they've, like the inner child has never been loved. Yeah, but you bypass that moment by going, oh, like this. This is actually not my job. This is yours to be with. That's. Yeah, that's avoiding depth. And the fact of the matter is, is that your partner is going to bring things to you because you are their safe space, and then you then get the opportunity to provide a healing experience or a reaffirming that they are too much or not enough experience. Because you did a fucking NLP course or you did a coaching certification, you now know how to coach, which is like just a glorified avoidant attachment fucking badge. That's all it is, entrepreneurship. And like all of this stuff is like it's it's glorified avoidant attachment starts like, I know better than you, therefore you need to go and sort you shit out so you can come up and spend time with me when when you're healed, then come back. Once you've sort of that out, then come back to me and then we will connect. When you're ease, when you're when it's easier for me. And this is bullshit. It's like, that's the very same thing. Yeah. This. You've really landed on the piece that didn't. That pisses me off. Because there is something there like our role, as if we want to be a devotional partner and really, truly practice like like spiritual intimacy. A devotion is to love and accept all the parts of our partner that they bring us. It's not to go, like that pot isn't healed. Can you go? Can you go do an embodiment practice? Can you go, say some affirmation so that you can come back and actually be in your power with me, because you need to get in your power first before we have this conversation, before we do this, like, sometimes this is partnership. It's holding your partner when they're when they're falling apart and they're super fucking insecure and you wrapping them up in your arms and saying, baby, I've got you, baby I can, I can, I can be, I can be your power right now. But fall into my arms like that. That is love. And being able to offer. Yeah. Being able to love you like there's something, so deeply healing and beautiful about loving your partner in that moment without judgment and without this, this, undercurrent of. That's not welcome here. Yeah, yeah. And I just, I sorry, I'm getting fired off, but I also feel like my thoughts aren't fully like, formulated around this, but, for those listening, I really invite you to become so ruthlessly devoted to seeing where you're where you have an undercurrent, where you're meeting your partner from this place of that part of you as and welcome here, like just judging parts of your partner. And I remember I used to do this a lot whenever like your little boy energy came out and maybe it was like really playful and exuberant, or maybe it was, like when you weren't the solid just showing up as, like the solid, unwavering man that I wanted you to be. I would shame you. You'd, like crushed my joy. I would I would shame you and I would make you feel wrong. So having fun. And it was almost this part of me that's like you need. Don't you know that only your solid, unwavering man is welcome here? And when I realized there was such a moment, I know exactly where we were. We were in our village, white House, and you're in the room. And I was like, walking towards you in the room. And I didn't even know what it what. What led to this? But there was a moment where I realized, what if you were doing the exact thing I'm doing to you back to me? Like, what if I was not in my power in that moment? And you were basically being like to me, like, like, that's not welcome here. Like I one of the things I appreciate, I appreciate and have always appreciated in our partnership is like, you have never made me feel like any part of me is not welcome. You have always made me feel, you've never made me feel too much and it was such a moment where I got to be like, oh, I'm not being not for him. I'm not reciprocating that at all. I'm not ever saying this out loud, but this is what I'm doing with my behavior and and the, you know, the message I'm holding underneath is, I'll love this part of you. And that part of you is welcome, but not that part. Don't bring me that pot. And that was just such a moment for me to be like. I do not want to love you like that. I want you to truly feel like you can bring every fucking part of you. And I am loving and accepting every single, every single pot. And that shifted so much for me in the way that I loved you. It was generous. Yeah, it was generous. Yeah. Generosity is is a cornerstone of relating. Yeah. And for us, definitely. And for anyone that wants to move beyond that 5050 or this, like, hierarchical style of relating. Yeah. It's not codependency. What we're what we're spruiking here. It's not our I die without you. It's like, no, I actually want I could live without you, but I'd rather not. Yeah. Rather actually. And I and I don't want to live with half. If you want to live with all of you. So I will take the good with the bad, and I'll take the frustrating with the fun. And I will, like, be with myself as much as I need to be so I can be with you. And I'll trust that you can hold me as well. When I full of hot. It's generosity of vulnerable act and vulnerability is such a courageous thing to be in this modern world where it's easy to, bring something and be told that that's not okay. It. I think that's the whole point of a relationship is to remember that it is okay to remember that, like, that part of you is okay, and it's welcome, and it has. And there's a time and space for it to be here. And, we'll make, we'll make, we'll make arrangements for it to be, welcome. And ironically, once you allow it to be seen quite often, it doesn't need that much after anyway. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's quite often just needs to be acknowledged and the feelings that are moving through you need to be acknowledged and allowed and normally like, ironically, the thing that you think it's going to take forever. But normally that only takes ten minutes. Doesn't take that long. So be generous. Be generous. And be a dickhead. Stop trying to coach your partner. Yeah that if you take one thing for. Instance start trying to. Push them away with your coaching jargon. I feel like so many people do without realizing they're doing it. Yeah, it's, it's a lot of people get into personal development. They think that they're now, good at relationships. It's it's actually I've, I've seen more people in personal development fuck relationships up than, than than people that haven't been in it. Yeah, yeah. And there's a difference between you can yeah. You can have, you could do all the fucking plant medicine and it bring, you know, closer to. Some of the. Good people that, that relationship. People who've done a lot of plant medicine that you guys. Yeah. Relationships are your forte. Love you guys. But yeah. And same thing like personal development. It's personal development. It's not relational development. So like there's a whole other piece of the puzzle which is like okay, I've done the work on myself, but as soon as I step into a relationship, guess what? You're back to square one. You now have to go through that while being witnessed and have the vulnerability of someone else. Seeing those parts of you, because the person in the room that you partnered up with, that you did it for ten minutes. Yeah, that was a good reference point. But now it's time to go back into the real world and actually live it. Yeah, because once again, it's, it's good to practice and it's good to do these things. And I'm a big advocate for personal development, and I'm a big advocate for plant medicine. I'm big advocate, tremendous work, women's work. And, working on ourselves. However, none of that matters if you can't bring it home. Oh my gosh, none of that counts. It's always, always all just, a fun weekend. That doesn't actually. Solidify anything if you don't bring it home and bring it into your life. Yeah. I'm in. Awesome. Okay. Thanks for being here. We'll see you soon. Bless. Up. Place up big. Love people. We'll see you when we see you. Could be next week. Could be next year. Who knows? Yeah. True to the moment. Will reveal. By. Post. Yo yo yo, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of sex, love and everything in between. Now, if you'd like to stay connected with Megan, you can head on over to Instagram and follow me at the Jacob O'Neal. And where can people Find you love here. At the Dot. Megan. Oh, Amazing. And yeah, guys, check out the show notes for all other information in regards to what we've got coming up. And yeah, we're super, super grateful that you guys have taking the time to listen in to this podcast. If you do have any topics or any questions, like I said, hit us up on Instagram and we'll see what we can do. Apart from that, have a beautiful, beautiful rest of your day. Thanks for being here. Big, big love.