Safe, Efficient, Profitable: A Worker Safety Podcast

PSM & Refrigeration Trends Reshaping The Industry

• Episode 82

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 15:19

In this episode of Safe, Efficient, Profitable, we break down the top three Process Safety Management (PSM) trends we’re seeing across industrial ammonia refrigeration facilities — and why they matter. Episode details below!

Allen Safety Amazon Store: https://www.amazon.com/stores/AllenSafety/page/65264DB0-B81B-4A23-BCB2-03D3DFFD28D0?lp_asin=B0FLWVCK1L&ref_=ast_bln

Allen-Safety.com for more merch and for current safety and PSM services offered

🔹 Trend #1: Vetting PHA Facilitators

As PSM requirements evolve and standards change, many facilities are outsourcing PHAs.  We discuss:

How misunderstanding the intent of PHA questions undermines risk reduction

Why hands-on experience matters 

What to ask before hiring a PHA facilitator

Key takeaway: Vet the person, not just the company.

🔹 Trend #2: Undefined PSM Coordinators.  We discuss:

Many plants are hiring PSM coordinators quickly to keep up with compliance demands — but without clearly defining what decisions they’re qualified to make.

The difference between managing documents and validating safety content

Approval of technical procedures 

When co-signing and oversight are necessary

Key takeaway: Clear role definition protects both the coordinator and the facility.

🔹 Trend #3: The Changing Definition of “Operator” We discuss: 

High turnover has changed what it means to be a trained operator 

Why traditional multi-year training timelines are difficult 

How partial experience from other facilities can create hidden gaps

Key takeaway: Operator capability must be defined, verified, and  reassessed.

🔹 Bonus Discussion: Third-Party Contractors & Hidden Risk:  we discuss:

With more plants relying on contractors for refrigeration operation and PSM tasks, we talk about:

Third-party doesn’t automatically mean qualified

Common red flags 

How contractor labor shortages mirror in-house challenges

Key takeaway: Contractors must be vetted with the same rigor as employees.

Why This Matters

Across all of these trends, one issue keeps surfacing:

PSM is drifting toward paperwork compliance instead of true risk reduction.

Remember to:

Vet people as individuals, not just vendors and contractors

Define competency

Adapt training models to modern workforce realities

How You Can Support the Podcast
👍 Like the video
📌 Subscribe to the channel
🔁 Share with someone responsible for PSM or safety

Your support helps us continue providing real-world, experience-based insights the industry doesn’t always talk about.

Need PSM Support?

We offer:
PHA facilitation and support
Hazmat training (along with other safety training & audits)
Mini compliance audits
PSM coaching and advisory services

👉 Visit Allen-Safety.com  to learn more.

SEO Tags / Keywords

Process Safety Management, PSM trends, PHA best practices, IIAR 9, ammonia refrigeration safety, PSM coordinator responsibilities, operator training challenges, industrial safety compliance, contractor safety risks, ammonia PSM, refrigeration safety training, ammonia, NH3, OSHA, PSM, r717

SPEAKER_00:

Hey, uh let's talk about some PSM top three weird trends.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. PSM weird trends. Got it. Got it. Here we go. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00:

All right. Welcome back to the channel. Today is we try to do these based on is it something we've seen a lot or a new trend? This is a trend. Okay. These are top three trends we've seen at PSM in the last few months.

SPEAKER_01:

I like how I'm just like, okay, like I don't know. I'm no part of the topic selection at all. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

So I'll give you an example. Everyone knows that there's rules been changing and suggestions of how you do things for PSM.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep. IAR9 has been released and we've got to move into compliance without so a PHA, for example. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

You decide that you're gonna hire somebody to conduct a PHA.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Right now, there's a lot of random versions of a PHA.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's the first thing. So it's not PHA like you thought five years ago when you did it.

SPEAKER_01:

Which, like some of us did it internal, some of us did it external when I was at the plants, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean so that there was a choice, and we're not doing a very good job of vetting the third party because we're thinking, oh, they do PHAs, this is how we did it five years ago, and we're kind of redoing the process or thinking this is what we're going to hire, but we're not asking all the right questions now, and it's changed.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think the situation, in my opinion, my opinion only, that's going on is we are hiring company A that we're familiar with, whatever company that is for your region or whatever that we we use them for other stuff theoretically. And that entity now does PHAs, now does PHAs, and they are recognizing hey, people are asking us for this. This is something that we can make money on. It's in our lane, it's refrigeration, we can make money on it or whatever. And so they are now adding that service. The interesting thing that we're seeing is the qualifications for the person doing the PHA are all over the map because they all they're really doing is reading off a spreadsheet. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

So the you you apply the computer program, yeah, read the question, and and I've said in a bunch of them the last few months.

SPEAKER_01:

Which is something that I never thought was gonna be part of what we're doing is just sitting through someone else's PHA, but not conducting it ourselves, just being there for support. Almost to be like, no, that's not what that question means. Why did you ask you? That's not what that question means. That's not the intent of the question. That is the trend that we're seeing. Yeah, we're seeing things get misconstrued, misinterpreted.

SPEAKER_00:

Maybe seven words, but the way they're saying the seven words and the way defending the seven words does not meet the end goal. And the end goal is reduce risk.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, like the the intent, the the true intention of why that question is in there is getting missed. Yes. And I think it's because we don't understand as the person providing it, uh is the only thing I can come up with that they don't understand why the question's there or what it's getting at.

SPEAKER_00:

I give you one example, and this this is not every PHA, but it's an example. Usually PHA has a line item, and the ideas, there's multiple line items that say, what if this happened as in a league?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And what would be the things we do it? But I've sat on these and I'm like, well, none of these people have ever fought a league. None of these people even go to current hazmat training of any kind. So what recommendation are they really giving to a plant if they've never done the part that the PHA is supposed to prevent?

SPEAKER_01:

So, I mean, let's let's keep in mind process hazard analysis, right? Why are we concerned with the hazard? Oh, because we don't want to hurt a bunch of people and have a leak. Like that's the entire point of what we're doing it for. Sitting in there just grinding out these questions for three days or two or three days or a week or however long it takes to get through it based on the program. So that's that you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess that's really the question is the recommendation from my side would be let's ask what the qualifications are for the actual person that's going to be. Not the company, not the PHA. Yes, not the company. The person that's going to be standing next to the computer, sitting next to the computer, asking the questions, how well do they know your system? Because there can be some contamination and cross stuff with that too, of Foxwatch in the hen house. If you get somebody who installed your system and that's the person doing it, there's good and bad there. So just be aware of that. But also, yeah, just making sure you know what qualifies you to sit here. Are you a trained operator? Do you have a certification of any kind? What kind of continued education are you doing? And how long you've been doing this?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That's so that's that one.

SPEAKER_01:

That's the first one. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Now the next one is totally agree with that. Yeah. The next one is that you take something like I need somebody to manage PSM. Plant A.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. That like at the plant level, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That variable is so random right now. What plant what plant in person is.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, that's that's it's random through a lot of our positions at right now, honestly.

SPEAKER_00:

It used to be, you know, you you you were maybe an operator, your administrator, and you did all these steps, and now just because of that right or wrong, it's just reality.

SPEAKER_01:

We're trying to find someone to manage the PSM processes, and so it's like we need somebody.

SPEAKER_00:

But do they have the knowledge to make the decisions that they're required to decide? That's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think the question really needs to be is what decisions, if we have a concern about background and training from the education piece, what what are we gonna allow them to make decisions on until we get that caught up? Correct. Maybe we need to kind of tailor what decision processes they have abilities to make independently, or we get other people involved to say, well, you you know, uh you can have some more autonomy maybe later, but we need to, until we get you caught up, here's the qualifications we have for where what kind of education we'd like for this role. And until we get you there, let's have somebody kind of helping you and signing off on stuff, co-signing on your decisions also, not just you independently.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, I understand that a PSM coordinator is really an administrative process, they're managing paperwork, and I will tell you right now, this part I'm I'm terrible at managing computer work, typing, that kind of stuff. So a PSM is a good idea.

SPEAKER_01:

No, no kidding.

SPEAKER_00:

But they need to know what they can't do, and that's where the gap is. Well, they're the coordinators, so let's mix it, or they validate, or they review this procedure, but they can't review that procedure if they don't have the trainer background you're talking about. They can they can manage the document, they can file the document, they can track what's getting done, but they can't be validating the document if they don't have the background.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and that's exactly where I told you. Whatever, whatever document that's where it goes into what are we going to allow them to sign off on independently. So they can manage, hey, we need to get 10 SOPs reviewed this week. Absolutely. And they can make sure that process happens. They just may not be the person doing it until they get that the education to allow them to know what they're looking at. No, is it right or is it wrong? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. So that's two of the PSMs.

SPEAKER_01:

By the way, I'm wearing red hats. They are we matching.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think so. That's great.

SPEAKER_01:

It's kind of cheesy, but the third. It's also the Allen Safety coffee mug. All right, here we go.

SPEAKER_00:

We don't have a sponsor.

SPEAKER_01:

No, that's all right. No sponsors.

SPEAKER_00:

Go to Amazon.

SPEAKER_01:

Allen safety.com if you want some merch. We got really and truly what I mean this something for everyone, including a holiday collection. So yes. Check that out as well.

SPEAKER_00:

All right. So now we have the first one, which is PHA.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

And then we have the second one, which is a coordinator, which are two very big control points.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think it is managing the the what they're going to be responsible for exclusively and and setting some parameters in place based on education level and experience. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And the third one is what is an operator anymore? Right. Because that is so all over the map. Because it used to be you got hired, you did so many months job shadowing, and then you maybe went to some kind of school. Yep. And then you came back and did these steps. Now at 14 months, I mean it was so programmed out over a two or three year period of what you were going to do. And now you work there four months and they're gone. You're like, okay, but but they were running the system that four months. Yeah. You got you got to change the way your model is on what really is an operator. Because from our side, you say a trained operator must do XYZ.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. In my mind, like I can see because I had training matrices based on timelines. That's right. Here's what we're going to be doing. Yeah, here's what we're going to be doing month one, month two, month three, like first six months of hire annually, every two years, every three years.

SPEAKER_00:

Must go to all these training classes.

SPEAKER_01:

Had the whole thing outlined because we didn't want to miss anything. However, because of the turnover factor, we are having to adjust who can do what because we also don't always know who's showing up today. I mean, that's reality. Are they coming today? We don't know, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

And part of the operator gap is you hire somebody to fill that position. Because in really before, you didn't see a lot of operators turnover. Now I go to locations and every operator turn over a bunch. Well, they're coming from somewhere else. So you say, Oh, they have the, but we're not vetting that knowledge. And also, you know, you take an operator who came from plant one and they only did six skill sets because they were only there a few months. You hire them as operator. You can't expect them to do 12, but they can still only do six, and they haven't even learned your system yet. So really all they can do is three. So what you have to do is now almost like the coordinator or anything else, you gotta go back to reset what are we actually hiring and what are the expectations? And then real realistically, what are they can they really do in the next few months?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and in addition to that, it's even going back to who are they job shadowing? Because it may not be somebody at your plant. Maybe it's somebody at the plant, the sister plant that you guys have down the road. Maybe that's what it looks like because there is nobody that's been there long enough to be able to cover some of these things, up to and including some job tasks we're having to contract out to a third party because we don't have anybody that's been there long enough for us to train on that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

We have entire plans. The contractors doing all the PSM when it comes to operator tasks.

SPEAKER_01:

The refrigeration management. Yeah. Yeah. So they're doing the rounds, they're doing all the stuff.

SPEAKER_00:

I've never thought of that 27 years ago when I started in the industry. Never thought that it would all be third party.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And and honestly, so that would probably be the fourth one is evaluating when do you want to send people out? Do you want to send people out or do you want to bring someone on site to do some of this training? Is that person going to be third party? Is that person who's doing the training gonna be internal from a sister plane? Who is gonna be doing the training? Because we've got to also evaluate we know, we know, uh we have a feeling like, are they gonna stay? Or they like are they committed or are they like just getting by till the next thing comes along, or they're not really settled?

SPEAKER_00:

Here we go. Is that remember that if you do hire the third party contractor, they may be having the same labor pool you have. That's true. And just because they send Joe over there doesn't mean he's qualified.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And with so that's my bonus. You have to watch that operator for the third party because it's amazing how many people don't bring a mask or don't bring a meter or are the experts as a subject, and they don't know how to do it. And I'm there for a lot of these projects, and I'm like, well, that's weird. And for them to know, we've been through all this training, not that we do all of it every day, but to know if it makes sense what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah, we we are trained, we have been trained in refrigeration, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

So we're trying to figure out is this increasing.

SPEAKER_01:

Because I just want to know, yeah, I just want to know, is it right? So maybe that's the other thing. Maybe that's one of the other solutions is if you've got a manager, you're confident they're gonna say, uh, maybe send them out to get some refrigeration training or bring that that third party contractor, somebody in so that it's it's not I'm sending two people out, we've got the cost of the hotels or whatever. Maybe you bring somebody on site to train on your systems, your location, and you get other people in the process to be trained at the same time. You can bring more folks in. So if you do have some turnover, well, there's other people that have been trained at the same time with that same knowledge that are still at the location. So you don't have that gap until you hire the next person.

SPEAKER_00:

So that's ours.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, I've got more, but that's fine. We'll save them for another day. Trying to keep these two about 10 minutes, 15 minutes, a drive to work, a drive from work, because we know time is short. Absolutely. Yeah, so there you go. Um, if you want to support this, we really, really appreciate it. So, what that could look like if you want to help us out is liking, subscribing, sharing with people. This is kind of community service for us because we didn't have a lot of some of this kind of insight or knowledge of like what does it really mean? What is what is it really, what is really wrong? And so we wanted to provide that. So we want to make sure it gets into the hands of the people who need it because it took us some of these things a long time to learn. And so we want to get it into the hands of those who need it. So sharing that with those who need it, help them find it, all that good stuff really does help. And then again, if you want to support us further beyond that, uh, we do have the merch store. It's available on Allen Safety's Amazon page, or you can go to Allen Safety.com, find our merch there. We've got a lot more selection on that side of things just because of Amazon's rules and time frames and things. And then also, um, if you want to hire us for some PSM support help, that is also something that we do. We don't do the mechanical integrities, we don't do a lot of that stuff. Yeah, but we do the hazmat training, we do mini compliance audits, and we do the PHA stuff. So you can give us a call if that's something, including if you want us to just sit in and see if what's going on makes sense. We are more than happy to do that too. So until next time, thank you for listening. We appreciate it. Thank you for listening to Safe, Efficient, Profitable, a worker safety podcast. If you're looking for more in-depth discussions or step-by-step solutions on all of the different safety and regulatory topics, please visit us at www.alensafetycoaching.com for web-based virtual coaching and training, or at www.allen-safety.com to book our team for almost services, training sessions, to order virtual guides, to learn more about our team and what services we provide in the field, or just simply topic for the state for other nice. Today's gonna be helpful.

Head Shot

Joe Allen

Host
Head Shot

Jen Allen

Co-host