Midlife Mastery - with Daniel Wagner
Midlife - the main words associated are 'crisis' and 'spread'. But what if we challenge the societal narrative and make midlife the opportunity of our lifetime? What if it was our invitation to become more intentional, live more purposeful, and use our accumulated wisdom to contribute to the world around us? In Midlife Mastery we'll explore ways to do that. So that the best is yet to come.
Midlife Mastery - with Daniel Wagner
Raymond Doerfel on Revolutionizing Personal Growth: my Conversation with a Midlife Coach
Ever thought about why you may be suppressing your emotions, rather than embracing them, and how this could be impacting your life? Join us for a thought-provoking conversation with midlife mastery specialist, Raymond Doerfel, who shares his revolutionary approach to coaching without relying on rigid frameworks or fixed meetings. I, Daniel Wagner, have had the pleasure of being coached by Raymond and his guidance has helped me foster qualities of presence, authenticity, and courage. His influence guided me into a new realm of personal truth, challenging societal norms and expectations.
Our discussion took us through the significance of creating a safe space for personal growth in our relationships, and the importance of recognizing our authenticity. We share personal experiences on how facing our emotions has led to more fulfilling experiences in life, and also reflect on how societal programming impacts our behaviors, emotions, and physical symptoms. I reveal my journey of self-acceptance and the liberation of being myself without concern about how it will appear to others.
Raymond draws on his personal experiences, especially his journey of dealing with anger and finding peace. We stress on the importance of feeling your emotions, instead treating them as adversaries. We also explore the implications of societal pressure, conscious programming, and childhood influences on emotional management. This episode promises to inspire you to challenge societal norms, seek personal authenticity, and embrace your emotions. Join us on this journey of self-discovery and personal growth.
There you go, the red flashing button. Welcome to Midlife Mastery. My name is Daniel Wagner. Today I am with a very special person, a very dear friend of mine, a beautiful man which I'm really proud to have here, and his name is Raymond . Welcome, Raymond.
Raymond Dörfel:Thank you, Daniel. Thank you for inviting me.
Daniel Wagner:It was a surprise because we have a relationship, don't we? You are literally my coach and I pay you generously, I believe, but very, very well rewarded for your time showing me some of the things that have dawned on me I really need in my life and this is part of my Midlife Mastery podcast, where, at age 57, I was 56 when I started working with you I realized that there were some qualities in me as a man that I feel I'm missing, and when I met you, I saw that you have them and I wanted them, and you, literally, you knew what I was talking about. You talked about presence, authenticity, courage some of these qualities that I really wanted to bring into my life, and I have to say we're working together now six months. It's been absolutely life changing.
Daniel Wagner:There's not a call goes by where we don't have something to celebrate or cry about tears of joy, tears of pain, laughter, everything. So I'm just really, really happy for you to be here, and I also know you work with tons of other men and women as well, and many times you just help them with breakthroughs. So we have no concept for the call. I don't want it to be an interview. I wanted to be just a chat, a call together. So how did that introduction land for you? I mean what?
Raymond Dörfel:Well, I thought you were missing one point of me. This is Rengar Derfoy. He's a coach and in his free time he likes to beat up puppies with his dick. Because that's his hobby? Yeah, because you have to be compassionate on one side and on the other side you can't be an ass or a dick or whatever you want to be.
Raymond Dörfel:But no, what I truly enjoy about what I do is not just what I do is who I am. And people ask me how do you make your money? Simple, I make my money by being me, and it's not about tricks or strategies or tactics. Or do these five steps and then you'll be enlightened or you'll be completely centered or your problems will be gone. No, it's not the thing of getting rid of your problems or getting rid of feelings, because that's what most of my clients or people are struggling with. I don't want to feel angry, I don't want to feel depressed, I don't want to feel guilty. I don't want to feel because those are the feelings we have. Those feelings don't define you, they're just feelings you experience in certain moments. But the moment we identify with those feelings, then we think we become them. And when we become those feelings, you're already all over the place and the thing you think the world is going to explode.
Raymond Dörfel:But the quarter thing is what I teach my clients or what I've experienced in my own life is there is always a point of origin, a point of origin within you or in me and in me, where you start from and where you come back to. So, for example, this place of origin is a place of calmness and relaxation, groundness, where you have this place of safety within yourself and when you experience things, because we relate right, we relate to everything. We have a relationship with money, we have a relationship without partner, without kids, even with the weather. But being in relationship with all these things, to relate, is to feel, and not to feel is not to live. And the problem with what my clients and I believe, a lot of people have is they don't allow themselves to feel certain kinds of feelings or emotions. But they're there to help us, they're there to lift us up, to build us up from the ground up, and they might be difficult. They might be difficult emotions unless we surrender to them, unless we relax into them. And relaxing into them is not just a matter of sitting down and meditating or doing breath work. Those are ways to discover that, but you can be present with them even without any technique or any kind of thing that we learn online or from a coach, and so being present means just that you are with what's going on.
Raymond Dörfel:And you said, oh well, I feel frustrated. Okay, well then, you feel frustrated. And then what? Yeah, but I don't want to be frustrated, okay. So how does it feel to not want to be frustrated? Yeah, fucking frustrating.
Daniel Wagner:More frustrating.
Raymond Dörfel:Yeah, more frustrating.
Daniel Wagner:There's a few things in here which I love to unpack. So, first up, I need to demonstrate that we are speaking English, but you actually in Holland, you're Dutch and I'm Austrian in Germany. So we found a common language in words, but we also found a different common language when we are hanging out together. And the first thing I wanted to unpick from what you said you get paid for who you are and you don't have a process right Most coaches or consultants would come up with.
Daniel Wagner:Here's my framework, and that's supposed to give people a sense of certainty or assurance that what they do is replicable. I can do it again and again to system, and you told me immediately that you don't have that and we don't even meet regularly and we don't even have a fixed amount we meet. So this is the most unusual connection. But yet something in me, which is not a mental process, told me that I should follow that, and that's my invitation to everyone listening as we in life start to close down, we're not open to be curious or explore things like this, and you were very encouraging in me exploring it, but I came the moment when it was like okay, so are we going to do this now?
Daniel Wagner:And I was like, oh, here comes the what are you feeling now? Oh, that would be fear, uncertainty, not wanting to make a mistake, great, feel that. And what now? And so many times in our coaching sessions, within a few minutes I notice and this is the effect you have Not only a me, I guess I haven't spoken to many other clients. The effect is that you asked me after a few minutes how you're feeling now and I'm like, yeah, I am more grounded, I am more present, I'm more clear. So I come with willingness or my issue or something just happened and I wanted to ask you because I don't know, what do you think it is in you that facilitates that change in me and other clients?
Raymond Dörfel:Okay, that's a very good question and I think the most important thing is how I show up. If I'm all over the place, if I'm the stranger, if I'm not present, then chances are you will not get present, you will not ground yourself. So people say, oh well, coaching and you get paid so much and what the hell you? People realize a lot of people don't realize what it takes to be relaxed, to be grounded. That doesn't mean I don't have issues, it's just the differences. I deal with my issues differently.
Raymond Dörfel:I used to beat myself up whenever I made a mistake. I, the inner critic right and being the harsh almost. I was extremely hard on myself and never gave myself any kind of slack until I realized, listen, I'm being my own slave driver here and when I ask clients, you listen when they have kids. Would you treat your kids the same way you would treat yourself? I said no. They said no, okay, never so, never so. But there's a child living in us as well and they need as much compassion, understanding and patience as you're the children you put on this world.
Raymond Dörfel:So if I give myself that, logical consequence will be that this is what I bring into the conversation, into the session, and energy. Even though we are all doing things online, energy is energy and when someone is calm and relaxed, let's just work with children. If you are a parent and the child becomes angry or sad or a little bit panicky and child comes to you. If you are calm, relaxed, assertive, if you are grounded, the child will ease down and all those things that the child worried about will be trivial, because you feel safe and in the in the energy is. It's about being feeling safe, holding space. So I hold space and well, if I might add it into it, I believe I create safety. You know you could correct me if I'm wrong. I create safety because I feel safe within myself and that energy brings everything down sooner or later.
Daniel Wagner:Yeah, I noticed sooner or later in our later sessions it becomes sooner and I guess there's a familiarity that my nervous system recognizes the space with Raymond and I can tune into it quicker, even without it's effortless. I think this is one of the biggest things I've found with your approach, and I've been in many other coaching, mentor, mastermind relationships. Yours seems effortless and it could be a certain sense of you've achieved certain mastery or you work very hard at it. But for me on the receiving end it feels, as you said at the beginning, that you're just who you are and that does the thing. So it's a state of awareness or consciousness that you develop. That's who you are.
Raymond Dörfel:I have actually a great example for this. When you go into nature, what does nature do to you?
Daniel Wagner:Yeah, it generally does a little bit what you do. It's kind of Exactly. Without any effort, right yeah.
Raymond Dörfel:There's no tree. There's no tree telling you listen, you need to calm down or you'll fight push-ups and then you'll feel better.
Daniel Wagner:No, yeah, yeah.
Raymond Dörfel:We're not a group of nature because in our nature we are calm and relaxed. We are, but we've become detached, we've become distracted from that because of a disappointment. I call it disappointment and love. Disappointment and love means the pain has become so great we've created all these kind of coping mechanisms where we don't want to feel that what's inside of us. Once you allow yourself to truly feel that disappointment you had whether it was you being abused, bullied, you were abandoned, it doesn't matter. When you truly allow yourself to feel that part of yourself, to accept that part of yourself, naturally you'll calm down. And that's what nature does. And I believe that, especially nowadays, because I think it used to. I think years ago, when you had like a 150 kilogram dietitian and telling you listen, I'm going to help you lose some weight, people could get away with it. But that's not the case anymore. You have to either walk to talk. You have to walk to talk.
Daniel Wagner:So you've got to embody your message really for authenticity, for integrity, for believability, and even to sleep at night, right, you can't? I mean you can for sure. Maybe it was Bob Marley who said you can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.
Raymond Dörfel:Including yourself.
Daniel Wagner:Actually, that's a good point, very good point and pointer. We do know, right, we know ourselves when we're bullshitting ourselves or not, Unless you totally switched off your own inner guidance system, which is very rare, but of course we cover it up through life. We do know when we're feeling authentic and free and real and we do know when we're masked up and zipped up and armored up. And we know that what is a more alive experience? If that's what we're looking for feeling alive we know that openness and feeling it is the way to go. Would you say that once you felt those disintegrated parts or these parts of you that you have avoided feeling because you're now in a safe space, once it's felt, it's gone, Does it? No, no.
Raymond Dörfel:I don't believe something needs to go, because I want to say I can't decide that. So I can decide. And I can't decide that why? Because feelings will always be there. There will always be times where you feel afraid or angry or disappointed, or you feel sad. So we need emotions, we need our thoughts, but the question is, when those thoughts and emotions and feelings come, how do you treat yourself? How do you treat yourself? And I was the king of bullshit. I was bullshitting myself like crazy.
Daniel Wagner:Wait, wait, wait. You must have been the prince of bullshit, because I were Virginia.
Raymond Dörfel:Okay, Emperor, I bow down good.
Daniel Wagner:Yeah, yeah, man. Okay, sorry interrupted, you were the king of bullshit.
Raymond Dörfel:No, no, no, it was a fair point. It was a fair point. So, and because of that bullshit, I was doing free things, which are an occurrence when you are in a state of survival that is fleeing, fighting and freezing. I ran for my responsibilities. I was a warrior, a fighter. I was fighting, fighting, fighting. I have to be better and do a workshop here and I read tons of books. I don't know how many ayahuasca I did, combo mushrooms, coaching, therapy, goddamn.
Raymond Dörfel:And I was always dancing around the fire and I could say to everyone listen, look how hard I'm working on myself and all. I've had these epiparities again. But having an epiphany, having an experience, is great, having an experience as love is great. But then comes the time when you go home and it's time to integrate and anchor those experiences in your life. But integrating them means that you're going to be reminded, not constantly, but regularly, about the things that you've experienced in either a ceremony or a coaching. So it's not a second, it's not that, because if you go to a coach, it's once every two weeks, once every week for an hour or two hours, but what do you do the rest of the week? You just throw everything out of the window. Oh, then the real work starts. The integration is the most difficult and most important thing. It's not just about doing a course or a workshop and then say oh.
Raymond Dörfel:I'm totally enlightened, kumbayamalor. Then no, it doesn't work like that.
Daniel Wagner:I think you're pointing to something really, really key here. In about 20 years ago I did my first Tony Robbins event and you know you're spending three or four days, 16 hour day, bouncing up and down, really expanding your energy. But then there is the natural calm down. At one point you go home and it's like, where is it? And then you go back toesh водicycle, compact presentation or sort of like the events.
Daniel Wagner:I did not integrate it. It was suddenly a memory of something and it wasn't with me. It became sound bites, repeating what I heard or saying what I believe, but it wasn't real anymore. And then it became almost Like a religious book, right, where the essence is gone but the words are still, the hollow words are still there and you beat people up with the hollow words and beat yourself up. You try to get back to the state and, oh, it gets all very, very tense.
Daniel Wagner:But I remember used to me after sessions you know, hey, we had a great couple of sessions, just watch out for the integration time right, and it's because you mentioned it I was, I guess, willing to not be disappointed and Be willing to open more into that range I just call it range of emotions, of feelings of lying are Interesting. This, the integration time, so just the awareness, and I think that's a general Tip. I'm not here to give tips, but a general thing I picked up the awareness of of something allows you to Relax into it. Right, that's what I wanted with midlife mastery. I want to say to people midlife crisis, be aware that there's a face in your life where things will want to change for you and you can resist it and fight it. Or you're like, oh, that's the time when my soul or part of me wants to Tell me something. Right, you can listen or you can say blah, blah, blah, la, la, la, right it, that has it that has its limits.
Raymond Dörfel:Because if you look at physical complaints, mental issues you work, for example, you have, you injure your knee and then you go to a doctor. Of course you break your leg, you shouldn't sit down and oh, what processes behind this. No, you should go to a hospital and get it fixed first. Then the question is if this, these things, are recurring. You have constant knee pain or back pain or headaches or migraine. You constantly feel tired or some injury keep popping up. Those are signs and if you're willing to not just do a like a Pill or a treatment you know symptoms, treat symptoms but you're also willing to look deeper into what is my body telling me, what am I not seeing? What I'm enough feeling, because your body is here to help you and not destroy. And that might take some time.
Raymond Dörfel:Because awareness is just the first part. Awareness is the most important part, because if you're not aware, you can't change anything. But once you're aware you can be oh, I'm aware smoking is bad, but I? Is that a knowing in your head or is that something you truly deeply feel and embody? Because once you truly embody it, that you feel that what smoking does to you Physically, emotionally, mentally you have a choice, because awareness gives you choices, can you?
Raymond Dörfel:I will continue with this, with this program or this pattern, or I can do it in a new way and even though I don't know how yet, but I will find ways, either with someone or do it yourself, I will find ways to gradually See what's behind the pattern, is good, behind an unsupported pattern, there's always pain. So you can stop stop smoking. But if you don't feel the pattern behind it, if you don't feel the pain behind it, smoking will become doing exercise five, six days a week, two times a day, or working really hard. You can substitute. It become the same problem with a different coat, I'm sure. And that's that's what you see a lot. Oh, I've stopped smoking.
Daniel Wagner:But now, what are you doing now?
Raymond Dörfel:now, you're eating like sweets the whole day Interesting.
Daniel Wagner:Yeah, you're replacing You're right different coat. You're replacing the addiction, right, but what's the core of the behavior? Yeah, hey, um, obviously I only know you for a short while, but Was there a time in your life where it was very different? You earlier said you were the king of bullshit. Could you point to an event or an experience, or a recognition, realization that that was pivotal, where you like? Now life starts to really be different. When we met, you were told in telling me there's a big something, big changing, a big transition was happening. But could you point to one and unpack it a little bit for me?
Raymond Dörfel:Yes, I could. I think I started my process, or how you ever want to call it, since I was 90. I was eager to learn, but I learned with my head and not with my heart. So I had a lot of knowledge and I said I read tons of books, did a lot of things, but I couldn't feel. I couldn't truly feel in the body because I was. I was scared and I remember that I've had, I think I in the past 12 years I've been like broke three times. You know trades stolen, you know a fraudulent things happen in the lab, that that that I think I could buy a house with all the money I lost it. But it was. Those were expensive lessons, expensive lessons for me, because the pivotal moment was where I realized.
Raymond Dörfel:I think I was in Chicago, where I realized I didn't truly say yes to myself and my life. I was just prancing around and and acting like, oh look, I'm enjoying life and we go, how happy I am, and oh, there's nothing wrong with me and oh, I'll be fine, I can do it myself. But I had to realize that that I was afraid to live and I think that realization was I Four years ago, three, four years ago, that deep realization? It doesn't. That didn't mean I didn't do any work prior, but that was a moment where we last fuck. I, I'm afraid, to live, to truly enjoy my life. My life was all about working, learning. That was it. No breaks thing. Continue what your shoulders are behind it now don't be a pussy. And it created a lot of great things in my life, but I couldn't truly enjoy it. Enjoy it.
Raymond Dörfel:Yeah, it just works.
Daniel Wagner:I so Can relate different version of the same story. How old were you at this point when it happened? For years was a a pivotal moment.
Raymond Dörfel:I've had multiple people the moments, but this was like four years ago or I think how old were you?
Daniel Wagner:I'm always curious about age these days because I I want to kind of Get an idea when, when men and women get to this moment of clarity or direction or purpose or fulfillment or Whatever may be no, don't ask me there.
Raymond Dörfel:I'm gonna feel all I'll dare you.
Daniel Wagner:I'll find out, I Was you wouldn't ask me this question.
Raymond Dörfel:That's true, no.
Daniel Wagner:I will also. Yeah, I think in the future I want you to wear a name badge. You remember young, you're like I am 16, people like no, no, no, my name is Ramona.
Raymond Dörfel:My name is Ramona. You shouldn't be asking. You shouldn't be asking a lady this question.
Daniel Wagner:If it was Friday night, I pretend yellow, you'll be Ramona. That's a different. That's a different. Oh, yes we um hey, do you have a question for me?
Daniel Wagner:But well, first you know you asked me the question how long I'm for us? Yes, 46. Yes, 46. Cool and Interesting because there is this time between, I think, 30s, 40s, 50s it's. You can't really tell where people are. You know that because it's so different. You could be in your late 30s and very um Aware awake. I don't have good language for the state I'm describing, but I know when I see it and you could be in your 40s, 50s, 60s, the same you know. So it's not really an age thing. I.
Raymond Dörfel:Well, yes and no, because when you are born you go through phases. Right, these are all phases and time is just time, and in time you have phases where you go through certain kind of developments or not. It could be that you resist the development. Then it becomes drama and misery and suffering and there's pain is necessary.
Raymond Dörfel:I think, the Dalai Lama said it. Pain is necessary in life. Suffering is not Because if you cling on to that pain it becomes suffering. And to truly let go. To truly let go because people think letting go is like a spoon here. This is my spoon for my youth. It has ducks on it. I still have it. So letting go. People think letting go is this. They drop it and it's gone. Letting go is just loosening your grip and that whatever is in this hand, can go anywhere it can go away, but it can come back.
Raymond Dörfel:It doesn't matter, because you've relaxed.
Daniel Wagner:I do. I notice myself that I want to understand right Generally in life. I want to figure it out so that I know and then I'm good, then I'm safe. But I do see in what you say these phases in life that we naturally go through, and if we didn't resist, we would still, the change would still happen. The pain must still be there, but it would just be an accepting of what is much more than trying to cling or push away right, just imagine the tree right Tree grows and at some point a branch comes out.
Raymond Dörfel:But the tree resists the branch. Oh fuck, what's happening now? I'm going to keep this branch here. I don't want this. That doesn't happen in nature. Nature doesn't resist, it just goes, and what we do is whenever things get rough, and I believe that many people haven't learned how to deal with growth, pain or the trauma you've got. Most people have trauma nowadays and it's difficult to get into that part. If you constantly resist everything, it's like you're expecting all kinds of pain.
Daniel Wagner:Why do we resist? Is it societal? Is it expectation? Is it overlays? Is it just that we want to appear a certain way? Is it fear? I mean, what do you think is underneath Every?
Raymond Dörfel:resistance is fear driven, but it has also a lot of. I think that's a different discussion, because we talk about societal pressure, for example, how men are raised, how women are raised, from 100 years ago until now. We have in families, we have communities, then we have social media nowadays. So we have all this programming telling us what we should do, what we should say, what we should wear, how you should be, how you should act and, for example, there's this idea that if you want to have a relationship with a woman, nowadays you have to be six feet six, you have to have a six, you have to have a six pack, six figures on the bank and have a six inch dick. Well, that's great. Lucky for me, I have all these things Picture, or it didn't real. So we have all this programming and well, everything is almost a program. The question is, is this programming supporting us, serving us, or is it putting us down?
Raymond Dörfel:And sooner or later, every programming that we've had from our childhood be it good or bad, it's just a judgment will either conflict with you or continue with you, because when you become an adolescent, we want to reject parts of our upbringing, but there's also some conscious programming that's in your later life, for example, the idea that you have to please everybody and that works.
Raymond Dörfel:For some time it doesn't work. For some time Maybe you've got great results from that, but sooner or later, because if it's not in line with who you truly are, it'll start giving friction. And if you resist that because something inside you's telling you listen, this is not healthy, and if you download it but you still continue on because that's the programming you know, and it might be that you're more afraid of what's going to happen when you handle this programming or you confront yourself with the pain that's behind it. So it's far more comfortable to stay where you are in the pain that you have. And then the question is yeah, but it ends up during the years, so might start off with some itches somewhere and at some point you'll be, you'll have back problems and you can't walk anymore, because your back has been excruciating painful the past years and you've done nothing about it except doing symptoms.
Daniel Wagner:What are?
Raymond Dörfel:your symptoms. Yes, I'm curious, daniel, because you asked me the question about this pivotal moment and and I would love for you to share what because we've experienced like this pivotal moment in our sessions. What changed for you during our sessions? What has truly changed? Hmm?
Daniel Wagner:I think the biggest breakthrough no, I don't start as a I think my biggest breakthrough it's just acknowledging that I'm okay. It doesn't sound like a big, pivotal thing, but I'm building up for it. That was the main experience I came with conceptual how I think I have to be and some I got stripped away until I'm realizing just being who I am, how I show up with what is here, whatever it may be, is good, not just enough, it's good, it's right. And then incredible lightness happened as a result of that Silly laughter Like we even had today a few times.
Daniel Wagner:Right, I feel, I feel uninhibited with you because I don't feel I have to hide anymore and luckily, yeah, I can I sound so platitudinal, I can be myself, I can be who I am. But this is really what I experienced and I'm having more uncomfortable conversations in the world. I'm standing up more for my truth. I'm more doing what I actually want to do and not worry or think about how it might appear for everybody else. These are all aspects of what I feel is a growing up that I haven't done at a time it was supposed to have in my youth. I'm feeling now I'm growing up and I'm 57 and I'm feeling I'm slowly growing up.
Raymond Dörfel:I'm feeling I'm growing up and I'm feeling I'm slowly growing up and I'm feeling I'm.
Daniel Wagner:Yeah, it is, it actually is. It is actually moving me to tears sometimes because the aspect of trying to please everybody, be the good boy waiting for the little treat, right, it is not great. It is not a sovereign being building his kingdom right, which, for me, is such a new archetypal image which comes back and back again. This idea of my world, my life, my rules, my relationships. How do I want this to look my life right, with all the infringement of the surrounding areas of society and whatever it is. But there is also this self sovereign part that says, yeah, but it is how I want it for me. I am making my rules where I can, I have a right, of my own laws within my kingdom right. And this sounds I don't know how it sounds, I don't care. That is what it goes like to me. This is it and I like it. I like the feel of it.
Daniel Wagner:I think I might have grown at least half an inch, you know, just in and I mean that physically, from the fact that I'm not so, you know, hunched over and protective. I mean, you remember I had this thing with my throat, I had all this itches on my throat and you're like you know, what are you not saying? What are you not saying? That needs to be spoken. And, weirdly, physical symptoms cleared up when certain behaviors changed. Maybe not weirdly at all, it's linked right, but it's so easy to say that, oh, you got something wrong with your spine. Yeah, you need to stand up for what you believe. Yeah, okay, thanks for the tip, you know.
Daniel Wagner:But he created the insight and the allowance of making that change instead of saying here's another thing I can beat myself up for. That changed. I don't know, man, but I think it's magical for me. It's magical because the mental attempts to hundreds of books and seminars I read and maybe it was just the apple was ripe to be plucked, I don't know. Maybe the caterpillar finally did his transformation and it was time anyway, but surprisingly, it's surprisingly coincidental with you showing up and the work we've been doing. It's not the only thing, but it's for me. I point to this as an ingredient, clearly.
Raymond Dörfel:Yeah.
Daniel Wagner:Yeah.
Raymond Dörfel:So you know what I, what I really love about your story is in actuality, it comes down to not having to worry what other people think about you, and so you're not busy with the outside. So the moment you focus more on your inside what do I want, what do I need, what do I feel, what do I desire and the moment you step into that, that's on, then it comes from the inside out, not from the outside.
Daniel Wagner:I like you do that time and time again. You know, I convolutedly, eloquently describe something and you like, oh, and then you do the short version.
Raymond Dörfel:Yeah, that's all the oil.
Daniel Wagner:No, it is true, because I was so concerned about what people might think or might not think and how do I appear? And it becomes very constrained because spontaneous self expression can't happen. If you are double, triple, quadruple, checking, how will it land? Possibly with that and that and that person? And I have a wonderful man, which I hope I'll be bringing on this podcast soon, as my official therapist. You know. He's got actually therapy therapist accreditation and he said to me you're like a wolf who swallowed chalk. Right, there is this fairy tale of the wolf who swallowed chalk and I was really offended. I was like you know what do you mean? And I know what he means. Is that? Where's the wild man? Where is everything? So gentle and moderated and, you know, beautifully put?
Raymond Dörfel:Exactly.
Daniel Wagner:Yeah, exactly, gumbaya Namaste beloveds, you know it has a place, but and actually this is what I felt with you as well, and I don't want it to be all about you, but you were the first one to reflect it to me that much of that is spiritual bypassing, is actually not facing what needs to be faced and putting it into this cloak of holiness. And and oh, I'm a spiritual person. I don't judge you know, I love everyone. I'm not angry.
Raymond Dörfel:I'm not angry. I feel your anger Well welcome.
Daniel Wagner:And I think I think for men that's not an easy one to own your masculinity without being judged for being insert or stereotypical judgments of men pre the Romantic soft man era. It's not an easy, easy way to find right. On the other hand, you know when you're there. I definitely know when I'm, when I'm feeling myself now Interesting. You said earlier you couldn't feel yourself, you were just mentally prepared but not embodied, right. That that's for me another aspect of our work just feeling more embodied, feeling more grounded, feeling more here, you know.
Raymond Dörfel:And those are exactly right words. Embodiment means everything that lives inside you is not in your head, that lives here. Because your head is cold, your head can't feel, your head can only think.
Daniel Wagner:So when you live in your head, you live without.
Raymond Dörfel:You are functioning but not truly living. Interesting. The moment you start embodying everything, everything comes down and you allow yourself to feel even the most slight discomforts, and even how you treat them. For example, I had to come to terms with my murderous rage. I always said I'm not angry.
Raymond Dörfel:I can remember when I did a course it was a four year course, cycle motion warfare, I don't know what it's called the first year was a process year and then the last weekend we had we called it the pig. It was a cushion with two handles, one on the first leg side, and you had a record in your hand and you could smash the pig right. And the whole weekend everybody was like screaming and crying and I sat there with sweat in my hands. I'm not gonna do this. No, I'm not angry.
Raymond Dörfel:No, but I was the last one and my ego couldn't cope with the fact that I wasn't going to hit that pig right. So I said give me that record. And I was just playing around and making jokes like I always did. But I can remember that the woman who guided she made some kind of remark about my father and I can remember there was this electricity coming from my spine from my butt until my neck and I gripped the racket and I could feel this rage coming up and I hit it so hard I had to turn the racket around three times because it was bending that much and all my fellow students. They moved away one or two meters.
Daniel Wagner:I was like whoa, it was the first time, the first time.
Raymond Dörfel:I experienced rage and what happened then?
Daniel Wagner:Yeah, what happened then? How did it feel once it passed through you? You must have been alive, electrified.
Raymond Dörfel:Well, yeah, I think I don't know how long it took, and at some point I fell down and I was curling up and I just was in the infirm that was laid behind me and I was crying the next day.
Raymond Dörfel:The next day, my sister and me were almost told to come to my father's place because we were both working in his gym I was a general manager there because there was a letter coming from members that my sister and me had this foul language behind a bar and they wanted to be just my father and my stepmother at the time and, by the time, so ingenuine. And I was sitting on the head of the table. My father was on the left, my sister was on the right and my stepmother was next to my sister. And I can remember these were chairs where you could put your armrests on and put armrests, and it had wheels. And my father was, yeah, and you blah, blah, blah and this is bad and we can't tolerate this. And the longer he spoke, the angrier I got.
Raymond Dörfel:And it was just one day after that weekend, right with this racket, and I remember I was gripping the size of the armrest, like I could feel like this with this boiling, and normally I would just shut up and take it and take the blame for everything. I didn't want to express any anger and that was a moment where he wanted to say something more. I stood up, I smacked the table and I said you shut the fuck up. And I kicked the chair away and he was trying to get up and I said if you stand up, I'll cut your fucking head off. And I sat down and I did a rant a rant for all this shit. For a half an hour I went off and then I told my stepmother I know you fucking wrote that letter to get us out. If I hear one thing, one thing ever, I'm going to come back and I won't be able to explain myself. Do you fucking understand? And it was quiet. It was quiet for a half an hour and I sat in the car like this. And that was the first time I experienced anger and I wasn't ready then. But, like I said, integration right, because once it comes out it doesn't mean that it's healed, because this was rage, real murderous rage. And then, years later, I wanted to drive to my father and I'm going to drive to his home and I'm going to fucking kill him.
Raymond Dörfel:And then I realized how angry I still was and then being with that anger to allowing myself to feel that without the need to do it right, I don't want to be a murderer, but I can experience murderous rage and that gave me so much relaxation and calmness to be able to allow myself to feel these feelings. It's like who wants to feel murderous rage? There's not a judgment. You can't be angry like that, oh no. No, that's not spiritual. You're in your ego. Oh, you should keep everything in. No, you'd allow yourself to feel it, but hold space for yourself as well and become your own parent. So it gave me so much peace to realize I can experience murderous rage. I can feel so sad that I have been depressed for four years and I have had a burn-out for a year. So I know all the things I've experienced in the depth. I wasn't allowing myself to truly feel what was inside of me. The more I allowed myself to feel it, the more I came alive.
Daniel Wagner:So I feel I need to almost put a disclaimer into this podcast now. So explicit adult language. You know wild man talking. Yeah, I have all my life avoided feeling the deep emotions and what I realized as the depression came and pent up. Grief for decades was suddenly allowed to come. It opened the doors to other things that I've been hiding and tucking away and it took a lot of energy to suppress it all. Right, this is also clear. So I think one of the benefits of being a bit older, like my age now I'm 57 as of this recording.
Daniel Wagner:Luckily I care less about it, right, but it was surely a huge stumbling block and I think I had it more than many other people this willingness to please and try to be good and be acknowledged and seen for being spiritual or holy or just really kind and generous. Right, and it is aspects, the clearly aspects of who I am, but not just right. This is like painting with three crayons out of the whole set. It lives more colorful. Yeah, the man's work has been huge for me. There's this man's retreats and some of this discovering those aspects Cool, oh my God, I'm just looking at. Oh my God, look at the time.
Raymond Dörfel:Forty-four minutes.
Daniel Wagner:I thought we just chat for 20 minutes and then we have nothing to say. We're going to sit in silence and wonder what else we could speak.
Raymond Dörfel:Right, yeah, right, something I was worried about.
Daniel Wagner:So to kind of move into the home straight, kind of wrapping it up. I hope that people listening to this will be getting something out of it Men, women who are in their midlife, understanding that some of what we both spoke about today, what you shared, is something they have not yet experienced, or about your experience or going through right now, and that it's okay. What final chapter of this podcast? What would you deliver as a message and you might not want to, but a message of hope. You know for the suffering. What would you say as an ending to this?
Raymond Dörfel:There's so much to say that's a good question. Just give me a second to check what I truly want to say.
Daniel Wagner:Hmm, yeah.
Raymond Dörfel:You have to do it yourself, but you don't have to do it alone. And if you can't hold space for yourself right now because you're afraid we will come out, there will always be someone. There can be someone. That are people that can hold space for you, that can teach you how to guide all these emotions, all these feelings, all these traumas, into something constructive and productive. There are people who have done the work or living, or living it with walk to talk. They are there, but you have to be willing, because if you're not willing, I'm not your daddy, because I am not your solution, but I can help. You definitely bring, or someone else roughly bring, you to that part which is needed to get you to that where there is a solution and not something that you created in your head, but the solutions are always found in your heart.
Daniel Wagner:I love it. You have to do it yourself, but you don't have to do it alone. With that, I want to thank my beautiful friend, raymond Dervol, for being here today, and I loved it. So I told myself that's the main point of this whole exercise. I need to enjoy it, and I hope that if anyone listens or watches this, they enjoy it too. Till next time, thank you.
Raymond Dörfel:Thanks for watching, bye, bye.
Daniel Wagner:See you soon, bye, bye.