Lindsay Buroker on Pen Names, Podcasting, and Rapid Release (Reair)

Episode 128 / We’re headed back to the archives for a fun interview with Lindsay Buroker. Lindsay talks about the benefits and drawbacks of pen names, the advantages of podcasting for writers, and how she writes and releases books into Kindle Unlimited using the rapid release model, then goes wide later. 

Intro links: 

Timeshifter app

Claire’s Kickstaster

Inkers Con digital ticket (affiliate code for discount: ALBRIGHT22)

Show notes:

• The importance of embracing the entrepreneurial mindset when you’re an indie author
• Advantages of using Patreon before a launch to let wide readers get a book before it goes into KU
• Why Lindsay is glad she did a writing workshop before she published
• The benefit of giving your cover artist freedom to be creative
• Why first-in-series-free book still works
• Lindsay’s lessons-learned about writing in multiple genres and pen names
• Advice for writers who want to start a podcast
• Rapid release and how Lindsay writes the books back-to-back before launching Book One
• The power of using “open loops” in a series and how it boosts readthrough of a series
• Focusing on what you’re good at and leaning into that whether it’s writing fast or marketing

Come over and say hi to Jami and Sara in the WIKT Facebook group! You can find show notes and links at wishidknownforwriters.com.

Lindsay Buroker

Six Figure Authors Podcast

The Big List of Craft and marketing books mentioned on WIKT podcast episodes 

Jami’s Launch Plan

Sara’s Book Release Timeline Checklist

Jami’s books

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Welcome to the Wish I'd Known Men podcast, where we focus on how authors found success, looking at strategies that have taken them to the top of the bestseller charts, as well as what they've learned from their mistakes. Because being an indie author is more than knowing the latest marketing trend. It's about being innovative and creative and learning from your mistakes. Welcome to the Wish I'd Know Then podcast.

Jami 0:28

I'm Sarah Rosette. And I'm Jamie Albright.

Sara 0:30

And this week on the show we have We are rerunning an episode with Lindsay Broker.

Jami 0:36

Yes, we are. We know how much you guys miss Lindsay and her podcast. And so we decided we would rerun this episode for y'all.

Sara 0:44

Yeah. So yeah, she uh did the Six Figure Author podcast until very recently. And um, I know that was a must listen for a lot of people, so we thought we would rerun this one. And she talks about um using pen names and um podcasting for authors, in fact, and also about um how she releases, which is a little bit different. She um releases NDKU and leaves her books in there for a while and then releases them wide later. So anyway, good interview, and we decided to share it again.

Jami 1:16

Yeah, we are, we are. So I have no news um other than I've been a little sick. Um but Sarah has news. So Sarah?

Sara 1:27

Well, I'm back from London. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm back from London. I went to um SPS for the second day, and that was great to see some writers that I knew online but not in person. Got to meet them and connect with them, and then I got to meet so many people who listened to the podcast, and that was just so much fun, and um really enjoyed that. And then I spent um several days in London on my own after that, and I just I went to the British Library and I found some research stuff there, and then I went to visit some stately homes and went to see a play, did all kinds of stuff. I went to go see the mouse trap, it's like the longest running play, and um it was really good. It was uh one of those that I kind of wished I had um closed captions because like now I listen to everything when I watch anything on TV, I listen to turn on the to help me catch all the little details, and they speak so quickly, but but it was good. I really it was good. I especially if you like mysteries for Agatha Christie, definitely go see it. So that was cool, and I definitely did. Yeah, so so I'm really glad I went. Um, came back, tested positive for COVID, and I it had been so long since it'd been long enough that I think everybody who was at the conference was in the clear. So nobody, I don't think I gave it or got it from anyone there, but um yeah, I've done like nothing since I got back. I'm feeling better now, but basically I've laid around for several days and right done nothing. So hopefully I'll get back into the groove next week. Oh, but I did have one thing I wanted to share that might be helpful if you're traveling. I tried this app called Time Shifter, and basically you put in your where you are, where you're going, your flight information, and it creates this little schedule to help you transition so that you have a better experience when you arrive. You're not so jet lagged, and it really worked. I was shocked that um like I I got up the day after I arrived and went to the conference all day, and I didn't feel you know tired or sleepy or anything. So anyway, so that might be helpful if you travel a lot.

Jami 3:39

So that's awesome. That's awesome. Well, um, I said I didn't have any uh news, and I don't have any personal news, but I wanted to say that um Claire Taylor's um we re-aired her episode two weeks ago, and um, you know, she has the Kickstarter on Reclaim Your Author Career, and it has funded, I mean, like over and above 20 minutes or something crazy like that, or like under an hour or something. Yeah, she's at 160 backers. So if you guys want to check that out, uh, we can put that link in the podcast, I mean in the show notes. Uh if you missed that, you can go back and listen to the her episode. And um, we get we're gonna have her back on to talk about kind of new stuff too. But um, I just was so happy for her, and uh people are so excited about this Kickstarter, so I just wanted to share it again. Um, Sneakers Con, you can feel oh go ahead, go ahead. We don't have our video on y'all because our internet's horrible and uh we just talk over each other all the time. So sorry.

Sara 4:54

Yeah, I was just gonna say the the the Kickstarter thing, that's it's just amazing, but it obviously it works. And if you you know are at all interested, just go back and listen to uh Russell and Monica's interview about Kickstarter, and because they have great tips. So I'm sorry, go ahead about it.

Jami 5:14

No, it's fine, and their book is awesome too. Yeah, we we it's just been amazing to watch people just really kill it with Kickstarter. Uh Brian Cohen just had a really successful one too. Um no, what I was gonna say about Inchers, still there's still a chance to get the $50 off if you use the code uh from us, Jamie22, and it's J-A-M-I 22 all caps. And uh we can have that link in the show notes as well. Um yeah, I think that's all. I'm I'm recording tomorrow for Becca Symes' conference, uh her strengths conference, um, about launching. So she's we're gonna do like a little interview style thing, and um that'll be fun. I'm looking forward to that. And uh but that's about all I've got going on.

Sara 6:06

So okay. Well, we will get on with the interview then, and we'll have all those links in the notes. So if anyone's interested.

Jami 6:15

Yeah. Enjoy Lindsay. All right, here we go.

Sara 6:19

Lindsay Baroker is a full-time independent fantasy author who loves travel, hiking, tennis, and vish laws. She grew up in the Seattle area but has itchy feet and moves every couple of years. So today we have Lindsay Baroker with us. Hello, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Hey, I'm doing great, and it's good to be here. Thanks. I'm glad you're here.

Sara 6:38

We're excited to talk to you. We've talked to a lot of romance and mystery authors, and now we want to kind of add in some sci-fi and fantasy.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Sounds good. I'll be your token geek.

Sara 6:53

Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

That's great.

Sara 6:56

So um, can you start us out and tell us um what genres you write in? I know you have a lot going on.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Right. Um, I almost almost everything is under sci-fi and fantasy. I I I've strayed occasionally and written stuff that didn't sell because I wasn't committed to it. But I write mostly, you would call it maybe steampunk slash epic fantasy, somewhere in that area. And then I also do space opera, kind of like Firefly and Star Wars. And I have a pen name. I haven't published anything for a couple years on, but she does sci-fi romance. So the naughtier bits, so I can hang with your romance people a little bit. And um, I'm doing an urban fantasy series right now, so I've been jumping around a bit under the umbrella of sci-fi and fantasy.

Jami 7:39

Have you published the urban fantasy or are you alright?

SPEAKER_00 7:43

I have. There's three of them out. I decided to launch it right into uh COVID-19, you know. I mean, I didn't. I had plans and then this virus came along, so it's a perfect time to launch a series, why not?

Jami 7:55

Exactly, exactly. Well, that makes it that does make me feel better because I have a series that I want to launch, but I was sort of wondering, should I wait or just go ahead and do it?

SPEAKER_00 8:04

So I feel like people have been very appreciative for new things to read. So there's that. You know, it's just I'm not sure, you know, sales have been okay so far. I don't know what the future will bring, but I'm a little bit glass half empty, so I'm always prepared to be properly pessimistic and then I'm pleasantly surprised if uh if it's not that.

Jami 8:23

If it turns out that way, that's great. Well, tell us how you got into Ronnie.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

I was an only child and read tons as a kid. Uh definitely an introvert too, and we did like little car trips to uh swim meets. I was on swim team, and uh I just read so many books in the back of the car going around. That's how you traveled back then, and maybe it will be again too. You just car trips, like nobody went on airplanes or cruise chips or anything like that. Um but so I grew up reading, loved it, loved making up stories for like my stuffed animals, would all become characters, and um, but I was not very good at finishing things. I tended to start stories and write the fun parts and then wander off. Yes. And that that continued like throughout finally, you know, um probably about 15 years ago now, I joined an online writing workshop and uh you'd ch you'd post a chapter each week or whatever, and uh I'd see other people finishing their books and getting agents and uh selling short stories, and that for me was motivating. I like I see other people be successful, and I think, well, I'm I'm okay, I'm as good as they are, maybe I could uh finish something too. And so I I got a little more serious and uh spent a couple years with that workshop and really learned a lot too from having my stuff critiqued and also from critiquing other people's work. It was, I don't know, I I seem to learn best that way, kind of a kinetic approach rather than just reading a book or something. And um, I was kind of ready to seek out an agent right about the time I got my first Kindle. This was like fall of 2010, and that we started seeing some success stories there from like J.A. Conrath and Amanda Hawking back in those days. And I pretty quickly went from like, hey, I I didn't think I was really gonna get an agent anyway because I wasn't writing the kind of stuff they were asking for. I was like, I'm just gonna go all in and do this self-publishing thing, and it's been almost 10 years now, and I've I haven't counted how many books I have out. It's probably 60 or 70 novels and then a bunch of shorter stuff. But um been full time since 2012, I'd say, early 2012. I I was self-employed before, so it was kind of a gradual transition rather than just putting the day job. But I'd sort of checked out of the other work well before.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

So um I think that's very common.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Yeah, you're just brain's like, ooh, look, I I'm I was excited to make like a hundred dollars. I was like, if I can make a hundred dollars from my books, I can make more, so we can do this. Right, right.

Jami 10:48

I think you um I I tell this, in fact, I said it when we interviewed Jay Thorne that um he was telling the story about when he decided to go full time and y'all were in uh New Orleans, you and Joanna and Jay and Zach. And I something was said to the effect of, well, what if I don't have enough money? And you were like, you just make more money. And I was like, that is genius. And I had held on to that for it, may not even have been the right quote, but for me, I'm just like, yeah, I'll just make more money. That's what you do, you just make more money. So if you make a hundred dollars, you make a thousand dollars.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Right. And I had come from being self-employed for like since 2001 or so. Yeah, so I had already sort of embraced that entrepreneur entrepreneurial mindset, even though as an introvert, I find some of that stuff very hard. I can't like sell anything to hard sell anything to anyone. But you know, I'd seen like, well, if you just you could start another series or you know, try some nonfiction, like those guys do the uh nonfiction, also, I think, or at least the uh the courses and the the get togethers that we will not be getting together for, but um virtually I think we're still getting together. That'll be good, yeah. Career author summit. So there's there's always opportunities, always more things you can do if uh something's slowing down, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Just have that mindset of like, okay, I I can do this. I've done it once, I can do it again.

Sara 12:11

There's so much potential, yeah. That's the one thing about being indie is that you have so much freedom in a way it's overwhelming, but it is great because you're like, well, if that didn't work, I can change it, I can start a new series, I can do whatever. So that's really one of our big advantages. Um, so what would you say was your first big success?

SPEAKER_00 12:33

I think the first thing I did that took me past like $100 a day, or not $100 a day, $100 a month, was just um, you know, I figured out that you can make things free, which was not an obvious thing back in like this was early 2011. Uh I didn't know never did know how to do it on Amazon until like a year later, but I I, you know, I put out a short story that I had originally written for an anthology that was rejected, but it tied into like my main series, my main series that had one book out with a second one coming. And um, it was because I had struggled, you know, just getting traction selling the novels at $2.99. This was there was Kindle Nation Daily was the one and only sponsorship site out at that time. There was nobody doing Facebook ads, there were no Amazon ads. So it was actually it's funny because we talk about it as the Gold Rush days, but it was actually pretty hard to gain visibility if I and then I didn't have awesome covers or you know, I didn't know what I was doing. And back then you had to like go find somebody on DV and art. There were no uh there wasn't this whole industry of cover design. So um, but anyway, I I made that story free, and it really highlighted the main characters and showed their banter and that they were fun, and I was like, oh, and by the way, if you want to see how these characters met, here's a preview to book one in the back of the short story. And um so making that free out there on Barnes Noble and and I think it was probably Apple and the other shorts, I was with Smashwords then, was sort of the first thing I did that started bringing in sales of the first novel in that series, and then I published more in the series. Eventually I learned how to do the price matching and get Amazon to make uh book one free. And uh things have been going, you know, I I wasn't like a huge thing. It wasn't like I was suddenly making a million dollars, but it was sort of the first thing that helped. And I'm still today a very big uh proponent of giving stuff away for free. Sort of the free samples at Costco, you know, like here's this yummy cheese, and you know you want to buy the rest of the yummy cheese over in this block for $29 because it's luxury yummy cheese. So yeah.

Jami 14:32

So you're are you all wide or are you some wide and some cake you?

SPEAKER_00 14:38

I am most all my backlist is wide, and then it's usually sort of the last, like the current series and the last series are in Kindle Unlimited. I I'm not a big fan of the exclusivity, like most authors, I think, will admit that.

unknown 14:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

But I I definitely have seen that it was very hard to launch new series and compete with books that were in Kindle Unlimited, since I'm sure you've talked about how it borrows count as sales as far as um ranking and visibility goes on Amazon. So I kind of caved and gave in, at least for now. I'm uh uh launching things. So uh indicate you for new stuff. I I do do a Patreon also so that readers can get the I'll pre-launch there a couple weeks before I launch the series. And that does give you know some of the Barnes and Noble and Cobo readers and Apple a chance to get them early so they're not like punished and have to wait two years, which I it's something I struggle with. You know, like I want to make as much money as I can from my series and get it in the hands of as many people, but I because I started wide, I do have all these readers on the other platforms still that get grumpy if uh understandably the books aren't available for them. So it's and yeah.

Jami 15:47

And that pre-order that pre-order thing works well. You you that's been working well for you as far as um it does fine.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

I've got I think maybe like 200 or 250 people that do that. Um some people won't because they just it's too many steps, you know. It's it's book funnel and it's not automatically landing on their device. And I I understand, but I did at least I have the option for them. Um so you know, and hey, it's it's another place I get money besides Amazon. So I always figure if anything happened over here, I could ramp this up over here. You know, right now, as we're recording, audiobooks are really delayed with ACX, and so I'm I'm kind of looking around like, how could I just you know release the audiobooks? I I'm waiting for BookFunnel to hopefully uh make a delivery system for that for uh as a way to sell direct as another option for those.

Sara 16:38

Yeah, and you're in touch with the Patreon people. You have you have connection with them where you wouldn't have it through Amazon or Kobo, so that's good too. It's like you can keep up with it.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

And those are some of the best, like these are people that will pay five, ten dollars every time you publish something. I think I even have a people couple that pay $25, even though I specifically say, like, don't do this. And this should you know, I have it so they can do it if they want to once in a while, but there's a couple people on there. And they tend to be the least, you know, like the lowest maintenance customers. So I'm like really, I always know that they're they're just chill. I don't know. There's something nice about people who are willing to pay a little more for your stuff. They seem to, for whatever reason, they seem to be easier to uh deal within some of the customer service stuff you get from uh, you know, why isn't your whole why aren't all your books in Kinla Unlimited? And I've written a blog post at this point that explains it, that I can send it to them about the exclusivity and that being a problem and stuff. And I'm like, well, what you need to email Amazon and ask them why they did the exclusivity. Exactly. Exactly.

Jami 17:45

That's not us, yeah, exactly. Well, tell us what you wish you'd known about writing in craft when you first started.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

I think um, you know, I I'm glad I did the workshop actually. I'm not sure. I feel like by the time I actually published a couple books, I'd sort of gone through. I'd uh you know, I'd sold some short stories to anthologies and some of the lower rung magazines. I never could get those like fancy pro magazines to want my stuff. But um I I actually think that that's something that I'm I'm glad that happened, that uh I had that couple years of learning because now it's so easy for new writers just to go do, do, do, oh, I can self-publish, get it right on Amazon and start rolling along. And I think if I my first stuff had gone up before um I'd gotten feedback from other writers, like I always say if you can please other writers, that's like the hardest group of people is like writers and editors, you know, they'll they're always harder on you than just you know, fans that don't necessarily care as much about if you're doing dangling modifiers or you know, or if you're info dumping on page three. Yeah, exactly. So I'm not saying I was just so smart and patient to do that stuff first, but just because I was a little earlier in the uh e-reader movement, I I had to do those things because I thought the only route at that time was going to be traditional publishing. So I'm glad for that. So I I don't know that I guess I I guess what I wish I had known back then, I don't know. I I I I feel like because I had to go that way, I I was pretty solid when I first launched. Like my first book isn't perfect, nobody's is. But I'm glad it wasn't like my first book I'd ever written.

Jami 19:26

Right. Yeah. Yeah, same thing happened to me, but and it was that was only in like 2000, let's see, 16, 14 or so that I started, you know, I started kind of going to uh RWA and get involved with critique group and stuff, but I still thought that traditional publishing was the only route. And so I was going to critique groups and getting my stuff just ripped apart and you know, in a good way, not a bad way, but um but it taught me so much that when it came time and I realized I could self-publish, all I I mean, what I really had to learn was the business, not writing in the business. And so that I I agree. I think that there's some benefit to that. Because I would have been crucified if I had put up my first stuff for sure. There were there were bodifylers dangling everywhere in that uh first thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

You don't know what you don't know until you don't know. I thought my stuff was delightful, you know. I didn't know, you know, I was like, I was a reader since like age three. Of course, my stuff will be fantastic. I will say one of the early craft things I learned from the workshop and from critiquing other people is that you don't necessarily have to fill all the time. Like I learned about scene breaks, you know, like stop when the important stuff happens. You don't have to show the, you know, I read all those books, uh Early America, like we'll, you know, taking the covered wagon across the country. Like the entire trip across the country and fill all the time.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

Describing every tumble weed that goes by.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Yeah, so like travel scenes. I learned to cut almost all travel scenes unless like an attack is imminent or something. Exactly. Exactly. We're just gonna in depth here.

Jami 21:11

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, pacing is tough.

Sara 21:14

Yeah.

Jami 21:15

It is.

Sara 21:15

Yeah, so um switching to the other thing we all have to worry about is like marketing. So, what what do you wish you had known about uh marketing and publicity and things like that?

SPEAKER_00 21:27

I think the thing early on that I might have had a little more success more quickly would have been if I'd had the covers really nailed down. And part of it was like I said, there wasn't really an industry back then of cover designers, so you were kind of figuring it out on your own. Like the first guy I did did some cool artwork, but he didn't couldn't do the typography. And I didn't know how to do like typography, so I had this weird, like painted red. I don't know what you would call it, if it was even a font or what. But so I think it because I have no graphic design background and no skills in that department. Whatsoever. So that was a little bit of a weakness for me. I think it was probably a few years before I started finding uh, you know, there were more cover designers to pick from and finding some people to, you know, I I still have some that I'm like, why was the art so much better for that other book you did? And then for my book. I'm like, hmm, is it me? It's probably me. I probably did not explain well or tried to overexplain or something. So I would say the cover art has been one of the things where um I wish I had got that dialed in earlier on. Uh, you know, because it's people will try a free book with a doofy cover, but but way more people will try a free book with an amazing cover. Yes, exactly.

Sara 22:42

Yeah, covers as hard.

Jami 22:44

Yeah.

Sara 22:44

Yeah. I think that's so hard because like I don't know how to talk to an artist because I'm not an artist, but my daughter is, and so I'll go talk to her and I'll say, This is what I got. How do I speak to my cover artist? And she'll tell me, Say, you want to say this, which I you know, I just don't know how to do that. So I think that's really challenging.

Jami 23:05

Yeah, I knew nothing about cover design when I started, and it was hard. It was hard. I didn't I didn't know what a cover designer could do, and they can do just about anything, but I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

So yeah, and coming out of the reading community too, you've probably had a lot of people say, like, the characters didn't look right on that cover, they're horrible, and you probably felt that too. And so you want them to be just right when it's your turn to do it. I've since realized that I I get a lot better covers when I'm just like, hey, make something cool. It's space opera, put a space starship on it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

And like I think that I hopefully the artists get excited too when you're just like, Yeah, make something cool. And it sort of ties in with the story, but not worrying about like, did you get the eye color right? You know.

Jami 23:50

My cover designer, we worked for on the first one, it was a couple of months, and because I didn't I didn't know she could change hair color. I didn't know she could, I just didn't know she could do those things, and so I kept going, no, do it this way, do it this way. And finally, we took a break over the holidays, and when we came back, I sent her an email and I said, Listen, you're the professional, so I'm just gonna let you handle it. And she texted, she messaged back, oh thank God. She was trying to be, you know, accommodating, but she was like, just let me let me put some things together and we'll see how that goes. And I was and it was perfect, it was absolutely perfect. But yeah, as soon as I let go of the reins and let the professional do what they do, then I got a great cover, but yeah, it's hard. So, what assumptions did you make at the beginning of your career and then looking back were they right or wrong?

SPEAKER_00 24:45

I think one assumption I made was that I could write, like I always knew like I'm not the greatest plotter, you know, I'm I'm only mediocre at setting scene and world building, but I I loved writing banter and creating characters that um I enjoyed spending time with. So I had the assumption, you know, having had a few short stories and things published at that point, I was like, I think the writing itself is good enough. You know, maybe it's not the greatest thing out there, but I I really think that if I get these characters out there and get enough people to try my stories, even if they don't fall neatly into like one category on Amazon, which I didn't really know was a problem yet then. You know, I thought people would be uh loyal to the characters and the series and want to keep reading, and that assumption actually turned out to be true. I think I've I've learned uh more, like I said, I I've learned I'm not the greatest plotter, I'm not the person who's gonna have like surprise twists that delight and amaze people because I apparently can't do that. So I've learned more of the things I'm not that great at, but I have learned that I was right about that initial thing that um I like to do banter, I like to do characters, and people really get attached to the characters, and that you know they've told me like I wish I could hang out with these guys, I wish we could have them over for the family barbecue. So I've leaned into that and I I've tried to improve a little bit at the other things too, but I've kind of accepted that, like, all right, if I have five pages of dialogue in a row, it's probably okay, because uh as long as it's moving the plot forward, I think my readers will enjoy it.

Sara 26:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's really true. Um, like the I'm I write mystery, so plot is so important, and I've learned over the years that the characters are even more important than the plot. I mean, you have to have a good plot, but readers will come back for the characters from book to book. So I think that's really really key.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Yeah.

Sara 26:34

So have you ever made a mistake that turned out to be a good thing? One of the tougher questions.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Yeah, I think I think um I would say, I'm not sure I would call my whole career early on a mistake, but before I started paying attention to like marketing and what was, you know, learning that, oh, you actually want to write books that are like all the other books in a category on Amazon, and maybe with your unique twist. Uh, because I was coming out of like agents were saying, like, we're tired of that, we don't want to see any more Tolkien kind of fantasy, we don't want to see anything like Dungeons and Dragons. I was like, oh man, I like that stuff. So I intentionally wrote stuff that wasn't really to those tropes and had those types of characters in the beginning. And, you know, I I think that first series I wrote, The Emperor's Edge, which also I learned that you should not title the series after the name of the first book. You should actually have a series title later on. But I I think that I because I I came out of that with that mindset, let's try to write something different versus like everything else. I ended up with a story that's it's not, you know, now I've written other things that have sold more because they have some more of those popular elements, like in fantasy, Epic Fantasy Dragons are popular. I have a series now with dragons that did really well. But I the fans really connected with the characters in that first series, and even though it didn't have a lot of the you know popular tropey stuff from Epic Fantasy, uh it's it's been a fan favorite, and I've had like a lot of fan art and fan fiction for that series. So I didn't really know what I was doing other than I want to write something I enjoy with characters I like, and um so I don't know if I'd call it a mistake, but it was definitely I was less educated on anything marketing, anything what sells, you know. I was just doing what I wanted to write, and I'm glad I did that for my first series. And maybe, you know, it sold fine. I eventually it was what led to me becoming a full-time author eventually, but it wasn't like I didn't sell a million copies and become the next man in a hawking. And I don't know if I would have, even if I had known more about marketing than but um it was good. I think the first couple series I was just trying to write what I enjoy, and that ended up getting me some really loyal fans that I still have today.

Jami 28:48

I think that's an important point though, because I, you know, people people always say, you know, be careful about writing what you love because you want to write to market too. But if you're a reader and you read what you read in the genre you write in, or you read in the genre you now write in, that you can write the book you love. I mean, you can write that book of your heart because it's what you would have wanted to read as a reader, and um so yeah, I think that does work out for some people, but it it irritates me when people don't read in the genre they try to write in because it's a popular genre, and I don't think they always hit the mark because they're not lovers of the genre, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

I don't know how people can do that. Like I I was never a big urban fantasy fan, so before I started this series, I was like, crud, I gotta like read a bunch of them to make sure. I didn't I just wanted to write a story about a character set in modern times. I wasn't really thinking like, oh, I gotta like nail urban fantasy because that's what this is gonna be uh categorized as, but I still went out and read a whole bunch of book ones because I was hoping I could find that there's some stuff vaguely selling that was somewhere in line with what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

And uh so I don't know if I would have adjusted my story much. I am a little bit stubborn about writing what I it has to be what I'm excited about, and I I tend not to be somebody that likes the real popular stuff.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Not not because I'm a snob, I mean I'm a snob, of course, but not because there's like no value in that stuff. It just for some reason I never have connected with like the popular stuff. I was the the little girl watching Star Trek reruns with my mom, you know, not playing house or watching Full House or whatever was on back then. So that's awesome. Quirky.

SPEAKER_04 30:31

Yeah, that's what I like to think of it as. I'm quirky. I'm not in the mainstream, I'm kind of a little off, but I'm okay. It's quirky.

Jami 30:38

So have you ever had anything that you thought, oh, this is a home run. This is gonna be it, and then it turned out not to be.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Yes, it never is. It's like I let's see, I thought uh Chains of Honor was my series that I I had like a really cool cover artist, Gene Molikka, and the covers are amazing. And I thought it was very much like kind of a sort of, I guess he was kind of orphaned. Uh, you know, he had a like the hero's young, like an 18-year-old character, which uh in Epic Fantasy there's like this trope where like the orphan boy saves the world and is a prophecy one, and it was as close as I'd come to following the tropes of Epic Fantasy. I was like, this is gonna be awesome, this is gonna sell like crazy, and it it did okay, you know. I mean, I I'm fortunate that I do have fans that will read anything, which is awesome. Yes, but it it definitely didn't like kill it. And um with this urban fantasy too, I was like, well, I'm bringing dragons in to urban fantasy, they're awesome in Epic Fantasy, so maybe they'll be awesome in urban fantasy, and it's done okay, but I've spent more money on it than I did like the launch any of the last three series I've had, and it hasn't made more. So I'm like, well, so I try I should learn not to just have any expectation expectations. Expectations, yeah. I think even after you've written a lot of series, you're always kind of hoping maybe this will be the one. This will be so awesome, and they'll want to make movies out of it, and somebody will want to pay me lots of money, and I'll be be tired at that point and write whatever. But um I I should just not have expectations. That's hard. Yeah, it is, it's very hard. You always have hopes. Yeah, you do, even if they're just secret little hopes, you know. You tell everybody, nah, it probably won't be that great. Yeah, that's exactly what I did with Urban Fanny. So, like, well, I'm jumping into this new subgenre that I haven't written in, so it probably won't do that well. But secretly, I'm like, well, maybe. Maybe the time for dragons has come.

SPEAKER_04 32:33

Okay, that's so funny.

Sara 32:35

So is there anything you've stopped doing, um, tasks or goals or things that you've taken off your plate over the years that you've decided that's just not really worth my time?

SPEAKER_00 32:46

I think a lot of the marketing stuff that comes and goes, um, you know, I've tried like Facebook events and um I've joined other people's parties, and like like this ends up being kind of a a time commitment. And since I write fairly quickly, you know, uh it doesn't really take me that many hours total to write a book. So if I take two hours out here, two hours out there, I'm you know, before long I'm that's a book I could have written. And uh, you know, some of those I've not really seen the needle move. So I've just I've sort of just started saying I'm trying to look better about saying no to things, which uh can be hard because you guys know that you have a podcast, you'll be more likely to be approached for things, which can be good, especially if you're not the kind of person that wants to go out and approach people and network and stuff. But um, you know, I I've just tried to do fewer of the things that I've done. I've tried I'll try anything once, and if it doesn't really kill it, you know, then I'm like, nah, I don't I don't think I need to do that again. I I'd rather because I love the writing, that's my favorite thing. The marketing is the things I have to do in order to sell the writing, but it's not like oh, I'm so excited to make some new Amazon ads this week. It's more like oh, Amazon ads time. Yeah, yeah, I know.

Jami 34:02

Those are uh yeah, they are a time second, but I I actually like the marketing because it's like because I'm not risk averse, and so I like it's like putting money in a slot machine and pulling the handle because a lot of times they work, they don't work a lot of times too, but you just never know. And for me, I love that part, but yeah, for a lot of people that it's not that fun, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

I've become a big fan of things that you can do once and that continue to uh sell books for you. That's why I'm still a fan of a permafree book one in a series, because I'll to completely ignore something for a year and then I'll go in and it's like, oh, there's still like a hundred downloads a day of that book, you know, and then there's the series is still selling, even though I haven't you know got a book bug forever or you know, or anything big. I I do try to cycle through and you know get some promos and stuff for my book ones every now and then, but uh that's one of the things that's just been easy. All I had to do is drop the price, and that continues to help these sort of the backlist stuff continue to do.

Jami 35:05

Do you rotate the pre-books or is it usually just the first book in the series?

SPEAKER_00 35:10

I've got a couple series where it's just book ones always free. It's been free so long that they're like on scribed and places I've forgotten, so it would be really difficult to go and find all the spots where that book is free. So I've got a couple like that, and then I do rotate with a couple of the other series. Um I have like a book, a three-book box set, this three, my Dragon Blood series right now. That's one that always has been popular. So I I leave that one free until I'm like, ah, I want to try to get a book bub. And they just so I'll put it up to $4.99 for a few months. Yeah. And then they seem to always take that one. And even though it's a little bit diminishing returns on books that have been featured year after year on there, you know. Um, if I can get one, I'll still take it. It's still a nice boost. But uh yeah, I'll I'll I'll kind of rotate sometimes. Some things I've made, like I just did a complete series free for uh my newsletter, just because I'm like, hey guys, if you lost your job or something right now or money's tight, and you don't want to buy my new book at five dollars, here's also I've made this box set of this complete series free just for you guys. Oh, that's nice, yeah.

Jami 36:14

That's really great. So um what do you wish you'd known about writing in multiple genres and uh like using pin names? And do you recommend using pin names?

SPEAKER_00 36:27

I think I I'm not sure I wish I'd known it because then I wouldn't have done it. I probably did not realize early on that the best way to make a real you know, have a really good, devoted fan base and sell really well with every new series you do is to always write in the same genre and always kind of give your readers what they want more of. Right. Jumping to different genres, even within the realm of sci-fi and fantasy, you know, you'll def I've definitely found like there's people that do epic fantasy that don't want to touch the space opera stuff. Even within fantasy, they may do epic fantasy but not be interested in the contemporary urban fantasy. So I I would probably tell other people, you know, if you want to make money, just focus for a while on one genre and write a couple series and really know it and get established in it, and then maybe you can try something else. So that's one thing I've learned is that that I've kind of picked a harder road than necessary. And then with pen names, um, I chose it, I felt I had to because I this the sex on the page was a big departure for me. Like I the first series I wrote where I had like a little teeny love scene. I got some flack from readers that you know, my first series was more PG, and they were kind of like, What? What is going on? They're having sex in a cave, they just met like in this book. Romance, fantasy and romance. So at that point, I just decided all the naughty stuff for the most part would go off under the pen name. But I've I've definitely learned that it's a big a lot of work to maintain two names, you know, to do, and I don't anymore. Like I've kind of dropped the website and the social media pages and stuff for the pen name. So that's something for people to consider if they're doing planning to do a pen name and their regular name. You know, are you gonna keep publishing in both names? Even if you're quite prolific, it's hard to really keep two going. I found, you know, I like to focus on one series at a time, so that would mean leaving my regular name with nothing new out for whatever almost a year while I go over and publish a new series under the pen name. So it's a little harder to keep things selling. And then when you're releasing new books as a pen name, um that will help your backlist, but only your backlist for your pen name, you know, and vice versa. Whereas if everything's under one name and you have a series that's selling well, a new series, you'll get people trickling back and trying your older stuff. But it unless you eventually go the route, and I've thought of this of putting both names on the cover and claiming both authors and just maybe making a disclaimer like, hey, naughty bits in the Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Don't read it if that's not for you. So that's something I may do someday, and just because I I'm very, you know, I enjoyed the stories that I wrote under the pen name. I didn't use it as a way to like some people I've heard just like, well, I'm just gonna knock these out and put out okay mediocre stories, you know, and hope they sell because it's in a hot genre. I was very much just they're still my stories, they're just with sex. Yeah, exactly.

Jami 39:25

I read a book the other day, and it's it said she dedicated it to her dad and you know how great he was, and then she said, But dad, don't read chapters 5, 12, 14, and 30, you know, 30 or something like that. I thought it was hilarious. She's got she went, she went for it. But I think this is important though for our listeners because Lindsay is crazy prolific. Like she just said, I mean, she can write a book really fast, but even you find it hard to write under two names and be and get books out as fast as your readers want them to be now.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

And then doing all the marketing for book names too. It's like that's if I was just, you know, uh if I had a full-time publisher or something and I was just doing the writing, maybe it'd be okay. But uh I found too, as I've written in more and more series, that it's really hard if I start jumping around. I my brain works much better if I write books one through eight back to back. I don't always obey my brain, but for the most part, I've learned to mostly do that. Uh, because otherwise I end up where I have to go reread like the first six books if it's been a while since I did an installment in that series, and that takes a lot of time. I'm not a fast reader. For some reason, I can write quickly, but uh I don't I'm not like one of those. I read two books a day. Even when I was a kid, I might have read one a day, but you know, what are you doing as a kid? You're in the back of the station wagon on a road trip. What else do you have to do? Yeah, there were no there was no other entertainment back then. You know, it was like the one station that came in on the radio that your dad claimed. So yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Sara 41:05

What makes me tired just thinking about it, and I haven't ever tried a pin name. So so not only do you write a whole bunch of series, you also do podcasting. So we wanted to talk to you about podcasting and um any advice you have, anything that you wish you had known about podcasting, in particular if there's writers out there that are thinking of starting a podcast, and like ours is more directed to writers and yours is too, but just whether it's which is the six-figure author podcast.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Yes, yes. So the thing I've learned about podcasting from doing this one, and then for about four years, we also did the sci-fi and fantasy marketing podcast, which was super niche, and in the end I felt like we were being a little repetitive, so that's why I was like, uh, we can retire this one. And I almost retired completely from podcasting. But um, Andrea Pearson, who is one of our new co-hosts, co-hosts on the new show, wrote a long email with like ideas. This is what you should do when you bring the show back. I was like, Well, why don't you come on board and we'll do those with the new show? But um, what I've learned is it doesn't really sell books. It might more so if you're selling writing, you know, if we were selling books about writing, right? Uh that'd be more of a match. But even so, I find that people are listening to their podcast where they're walking their dogs or they're commuting. So they're not like, oh, I can click and buy a book really easily right here. So I've there's there should that probably shouldn't be the main reason you start one if you're gonna start one. Um what I have found though is that as somebody who's not at all into networking, and I'm always like, no, I can do it all by myself. I do not need any help from anyone, I'm just gonna do it all by myself. And to some extent, you you can get pretty far that way. But it's especially if you're a newer author, it's easier if you can get invited to like, you know, be on some joint promotions, you know, do a like eight-author multi-book box set or multi-yeah, multi-novel box set in one book thing, and everybody's promoting to their lists and that kind of thing. And it can be hard to get invited to that stuff if you're just a new author, not really known in your genre yet. When you do the podcast, you have the opportunity to interview lots of people, and just you also have listeners who uh maybe write some of them might write in the same genres as you do. So I found that it, you know, it's a lot easier. I I don't usually do the newsletter swaps, but I I did when I jumped into sci-fi because that was a new genre for me. And I was really hoping to like, you know, I don't know how much you've talked about also bots and all that stuff, but I think we'll assume our people know that if you're writing in multiple genres, it can get a little screwy with the also bots. And I was hoping to get sci-fi people to promote my book and I would promote theirs. And so um, that was one time where I did newsletter swaps, and I found that because of the podcast, lots of people, even though I hadn't written in that genre, knew my name and were like, Yes, yes, we'd be happy to do that and uh happy to do a newsletter swap with you. And I've seen other people that are less that you know are newer, less well known, it's kind of crickets when they're like, Hey, does anybody want to do a newsletter swap? So it I think for networking. in an introvert acceptable way where you're you're not like smoozing people at a conference or anything. Right, right. That it's it's an effective way, especially if you can, you know, over time you do it and you get more listeners and more people. So it's been good for making connections, I think.

Jami 44:16

Yeah, I agree. And I'm just like um I'm on the Enneagram I'm a two which is a helper. So I really I mean that this just like feels that well for me. I just love like giving information to people, you know, for really smart people like you.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

So um I do too. And then it if you recorded it, you don't have to say it again. You can exactly we did a podcast on that why don't you check it out? Because you do if you're out there you start getting emails and questions from a lot of people so it's nice to be able to go like oh yeah go check out episode 36 where we had Jamie on and she writes a book a year and you're writing a book a year so you should check out our show.

Jami 44:54

Yeah yeah exactly exactly so speaking of that though you pretty much live by the rapid release model is that correct or you try to well I've gradually over time become a quicker writer.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Uh-huh you know the first series was more like a one every six months right those were also longer books too so there was that. And now I found that between you know it kind of suits me to write the first three novels because I'm a bit of a like I outline individual stories but I'm with the world building I'm a bit of a discover to make stuff up as I go along. And so if I'm working on book three and I'm like oh I need this to make up a new religion and I need to plant that in book one it allows me to I actually if I had my brothers I'd probably write an entire series before I published any of them and then then you can just focus completely over to marketing instead of trying to do both writing and marketing at one time. But because I do do this full time and it's my income also I I start to like income dropping this month I published something new. So um what was the question?

Jami 46:00

Rapid release.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Yeah just rapid release and and and the benefits you see in rapid release I mean we start a lot of them but how do you yeah um from the story perspective it lets me really iron things out a little more before I launch anything and then I'm kind of committed and it's harder to go back and change things at that point. And then for marketing it seems to be helpful to um you know you just if you have three for them to buy all at once or like one right after the other you seem to you're kind of striking while they're still excited about the first book. I just I find that I get a lot better sell through earlier on. Sometimes when you put out book four and it's been a long time since the last one, you feel like you're starting from ground zero. Like you've got your mailing list and those people are always good but there's you know I I know I have a lot of people who buy my books who aren't on my mailing list. They're just they're never going to sign up for a mailing list. You know they're never going to follow a Facebook page but so if the book's already there on pre-order at least you know they can go out and get it while they're still excited about the series. And I think with the voracious readers I always tell people don't assume that they read one book by you and you're now imprinted in your brain and they think they're awesome. It's like no you'll probably they'll probably forget about you because they're reading a book every day. But once they read maybe three, you know there's a little more in the memory at that point, you know and hopefully I I've certainly found the conversion when I do a book one through three box set is much better going on to book four than like a book one onto a book two. They're just they've read three they're like well I'm in it now. Yeah. So I I love to have like the first three come out kind of back to back. Uh you you get some really great income months then too it's just naturally obviously you're releasing several at once as opposed to spread out over time and it seems to be it adds up to more than like the individual pieces with that and I I think it's a bit momentum a bit maybe if you're on the new release list you know for a solid two months or whatever on Amazon that that that can help too. And so I like it but it suits me. I I do get concerned when people like do write a book a year and they're like oh my gosh now I have to have three books and rapid release.

Jami 48:07

I don't know you don't yeah I'm just living vicariously through you. I'm just listening that would be so nice.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Well when you do release them do you release them do you actually release them all at once or is it like one a week or one every few weeks or usually one every two two to three weeks for the first three and then it'll be about a one a month for the next couple and usually at that point they've gotten longer because the series is getting longer so I slow down a little bit and um now with my space opera series I'm releasing book seven coming up this month and um I took a break to do the first four books in the Urban Fantasy which is not what I recommend but it was just the uh that particular series they they're all over like 150,000 words now with like seven point of view characters. So I was like okay I just need to write something simple for a little bit and take a break before I go back to that. So yeah.

Jami 49:02

Well and another thing to point out too and and I think rapid release is great even if you if this isn't the case but in like Urban Fantasy and Epic Fantasy and Space Opera, you're usually working with the same characters in each book. Like it's you've got one or two main characters and they carry through through all the books where like in romance we write a lot of standalones in a series so you won't have the same characters but you'll have relating characters. So I think that's one of the reasons I can get away with writing more slowly because it's not like somebody's waiting to see what's going to happen to John and Mary. You know I didn't leave it going to get together or not yeah or you know that even if it's not a cliffhanger I mean it's still that overarching you know sci-fi and urban fantasy and stuff you've got that over overarching bad guy or whatever it that hasn't been resolved until you finish the series. So um but still I still think it's a great thing.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

If I could do it I would do it but there is pressure from your readers when you've got a cliffhanger in my sci-fi series of mad cliffhangers pretty much all the way through because it's sort of a I envision it like episodic TV.

Jami 50:13

Yeah I was like next week find out well it's all that it's all that Star Trek you watch so it's true.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

But it's a good point with romance and um actually the most successful romance series I did under my pen name it was just like a five book series but I had all five female characters get kidnapped at the same time and it it was like an overarching story. There was a romance in each one but they the goal was to get back to Earth and they did finally get to the end of book five so I was like if you can do something like that with romance I know not every romance genre is going to have kidnappings dragged off to another planet but it's gonna say space aliens yeah yeah that's exactly true very powerful to have a story and a not a cliffhanger but like because I did switch couples each one was that open loop you just need that open loop something to be resolved is very powerful in keeping the reader going especially when it is I know when I read romances I'm kind of like even if I like one and really like the characters and I like the author but the next one sounds like those characters are less my cup of tea it's there's a little more of a question mark. Whereas you know if you have to see what's going on with you know and you're gonna get an update with the original characters too.

Jami 51:26

Yeah yeah that's exactly right yeah that's very good thank you that was a great answer for rapid release I I mean again I I'm a fan I just it's not something I've perfected yet.

Sara 51:38

Yeah well I was gonna say that I I'm not as fast a writer as Lindsay but I did take like almost a whole year and wrote the beginning of the series it took six months and wrote two books and then waited until they were done and while they were being edited I wrote the third book in a new series and so and then I launched them 90 days apart because that was the longest you could do pre-order at that time and that worked really well too even though it was slower but the books were wide but that was a way it it gave me that advantage of like this one's done but the next one's on pre-order and readers could see that. So I think I maybe traded a little um maybe newsletter signups for pre-orders. But the same principle worked so even if you can't release you know even if you can't write super fast you can still sort of do the same thing but maybe modify it a little bit. Yeah so that worked well for me. So that might be something people could try.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

Yeah pre-order is good too and I I've had the same experience with that just what you were saying like the first three books I had out the you know the pre-orders were there and I just kind of directed people to get the next one and oh sign up for my newsletter too. And now because things are a little weird in the world right now I didn't put four up for pre-order I want to make sure I have the cover art before I I do that so I said well just sign up for my newsletter and I'll let you know when it's out and it's like lo and behold a whole bunch more newsletter signups than I was getting when they could just go to pre-order so it's maybe a choice but I I do think it's good if you can have that out there. Yeah that's that is that's interesting.

Jami 53:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:08

And like I was saying never like you never have to feel like you have to do that. That's why I love you Jamie because you're like an example of someone who is successful on a novel a year. And it's it's just that if that is your special thing, like you can write fast. That's one of your talents then go ahead and embrace it. You know it's I I feel like it helps a lot with the marketing it's sort of almost in lieu of marketing in some places.

Jami 53:30

It is it is I would spend a lot less on marketing if I could release a book faster if I could release book faster I think because my launches and and every launch for me and it's kind of like one of those things about oh no it's it doesn't matter if it's okay if it launches great but in my heart I'm like this has to hit it's the only thing I've got coming out like and so for me it puts a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

So it would be better but well then there's other people who are like mad spreadsheet experts that really get the ads and so it's like we all have our own little things just whatever it is that is your thing and appeals to you you can kind of focus on that and then use it to your advantage.

Sara 54:13

Exactly and and try to like Becca Stein says embrace your strengths and you know not look awareness things you're not as good at yeah exactly yeah exactly so looking back what changes have you seen in your genres genres as you've been writing what changes have you seen like in publishing or specifically what you you're writing in well of course there's a lot more authors doing this now.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

So there's a lot more books in the Kindle store there's it's a lot it's gonna take more usually than a cool cover to uh get your foot in the door and you know I I've seen the change just the right to market movement wasn't really a thing when I got started nobody was really thinking about that they were just writing what they wanted to write and the people who sold really well happened to be writing to market without knowing it. So that's become a thing as a as a result of more competition I think more you know it's always been hard to sell off quirky offbeat stories unless there's uh enough quirky offbeat people of that particular thing and then that's a valid place to be and uh you tend to get really hardcore fans if you are publishing something that's not widely available but it it's probably a little easier road to go to a and a bigger audience potentially to you know do the little more writing to a hungry market a bigger market so I I've seen that trend come along and of course when I started there was no KDB select no Kindle Unlimited no exclusivity with Amazon so I've seen that and you know I've chosen to kind of I resisted it for a couple years and now I've you know I'm partially committed like I said with the newer releases I'll put them in there so just having to adapt and it you were saying as indie authors we can we have that option uh you know things are always changing and we can adapt and and either try to take advantage or at least try not to get steamrolled over so because all the you know categories are more crowded although if you watch Amazon they do add new things like I started the pen name the sci-fi romance category is quite new when I started and at the time it was probably late 2014 when I launched the series the covers were really quite awful you know I mean as you can imagine sci-fi and aliens and things is hard anyway because they're not in stock art photos you know you gotta take this guy and put some horns on him and make him blue you know yeah exactly but so it was a little easier because it was a newer category and less competitive then so if you kind of just watch when Amazon puts new categories up uh or subcategories in your genre that can be something you can take advantage of so I just you know just try to pay attention it's definitely changing I still feel that people can get started today and do okay I do think there's a lot of pressure right now with so many podcasts talking about you know or or people posting their book report you know I made fifty thousand dollars this month yeah I've I'll probably make fifty thousand dollars when I launch my series as a new author and you know and um I had low expectations when I got started I was just like I'm hoping I can get to the point where I make paper route money you know I was really excited when I got to more than I was making when I was 12 from my paper route from my books.

Jami 57:26

Right. I had two bills I wanted to pay like there were two bills that were really stretching us and I was like if I could pay those two bills then that would just like take the pressure off and I'd have my job and it that happened and but it was not like that wasn't a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 57:44

I mean it was two bills that I was just trying to take care of the car payment and I can't remember what the other one was but because I had gotten a new car but yeah so so if you have low expectations yeah there's nowhere to go but up you're pleasantly surprised if you do better and then if you just hit your expectations that's okay too you can just gradually over time you write more books you write more series you get more readers. Exactly exactly so what's the best thing you did you've done to set yourself up for success do you think I think that I've always tried to well honestly accidentally writing the type of characters that um I love that other people have loved I think that's probably more key for me than like marketing brilliance I I I think I would think that's great because that's not going to change marketing stuff will change over time you know um so I guess accidentally having done the workshop and learned the basics and proven I could sell stuff even if it wasn't like to hugely popular magazines or anything um I learned the basics and I wasn't trying to like it's really hard to market a book that's a clunker and it's hard to tell somebody like your baby's a clunker. You know like I looked at the sample that's all I need to see you're gonna have a hard time because even if they can sell the first book people finish it and go on. Yeah yeah so accidentally having to be patient because of the time it wasn't as easy then to get started. So just that was I'm glad that I had at least because I'm not a super confident person. I like you if there's people whispering as I walk by I'm like oh they're talking about me they are just trash oh absolutely at football games I was convinced when they huddled up they were talking about me that's also vanity that's also vanity you don't have to I have but I I was just uh glad that I had a little confidence knew by having sold some stuff to those jaded editors out there that the writing was at least okay. So I I'm glad I had to go through that and couldn't just go throw that thing up there that I wrote in sixth grade you know yeah that's great.

SPEAKER_04 59:51

Yeah well thank you for coming on today.

Sara 59:54

You've been so helpful and I think that people really enjoy getting to know you a little bit better. And so uh tell everybody where they can find you and your books.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

All right well thank you very much for having me on the show and um lindsaybaroker.com or I'm on Amazon and the other stores. If you sell my name if you spell my name anywhere close usually Google will help you out. There aren't too many others out there so great.

Sara 1:00:18

Well thanks for listening everybody you can find uh show notes at wish I've known for writers dot com.

Jami 1:00:23

Thanks by have all Lindsay stuff in our show notes.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:27

All right thanks guys thanks for listening to the Wish I'd known men podcast. We hope this episode inspired you empowered you and made you laugh a little bit too if you loved it tell your friends about it. And if you feel so inclined leave us a review. We look forward to being with you again next week