Supporter Episode: Jami and Sara on Symbolism ❤️ 🗝️ 🔮 ⚔️ 🪐

In this supporter-exclusive chat, we talk about symbolism. From Pride and Prejudice to Monk, we've got tons of insights and examples that show how symbols can deepen your stories.  

• Different types
• How we use it in our books
• Favorite examples from television and movies. 

Links mentioned:

Writers Helping Writers - Guest post from K.M. Weiland

https://writershelpingwriters.net/2014/07/5-important-ways-use-symbolism-story/

💙 Thanks to all our supporters who made this episode possible! If you’d like to become a supporter go to https://wishidknownforwriters.com/support. You’ll get access to the backlist of exclusive supporter episodes, the private slack group, and a shoutout on a future episode. 

🚀 Jami’s Consulting and Workshops: https://www.jamialbright.com/authorworkshops

❤️ Jami’s books https://amzn.to/3wSraA5

🔎 Sara’s books https://www.sararosett.com/bibliography/

📚 Sara’s How to Write a Series book and audiobook: https://www.sararosett.com/how-to-write-a-series/

The Big List of Craft and marketing books mentioned on WIKT podcast episodes https://bookshop.org/lists/recommenced-resources-for-writers-from-the-wish-i-d-known-then-podcast

Transcript

Sara 0:00

Welcome to a supporter-only episode. Jamie and I are going to talk about symbolism and we're going to do our best, but we're both a little tentative on this one. But I think it's an interesting topic. And we're hoping that as we go, we'll have more thoughts and ideas. We'll like feed off of each other and come up with more stuff.

Jami 0:18

Sarah read this article and it was like, oh, that's so interesting. Yeah, let's do it. And then we I got to thinking about was like, I don't know if I understand symbolism.

Sara 0:27

So I think we'll you do it instinctively, I bet.

Jami 0:31

I don't know. Maybe. I mean, I do think I have some things from you know my books that I can that we can talk about. But yeah, me too.

Sara 0:40

So we'll see how this goes. We'll see if this actually goes out as an episode.

Jami 0:44

And this idea came from this article that Sarah and I read about symbolism. It's on the writers helping writers.

Sara 0:52

She's she did a guest, yeah.

Jami 0:53

KM sayland. Yeah.

Sara 0:56

Yeah. She did a guest post on the Writing Help Helping Writers website, and it was an article five called Five Important Ways to Use Symbolism in Your Story. The first one was small details that you can use to reveal things about your character. You can use to symbolize things about your character or the story situation. And so I jotted down like clothing, cars, colors, hobbies. One of the things that came to mind when I was thinking about this is have you seen the Madame Blanc Mysteries? The main character, she's interested in art and antiques and things like that. And the guy that's in the story, that's her friend, her love interest, I think in the future, he's interested in astrology and science. And I was like, oh, she's art, he's science. And so it shows the contrast between them. Right. So I thought of that as like they both have hobbies and interests, they're very different.

Jami 1:54

Right.

Sara 1:54

And that symbolizes part of the differences between them.

Jami 1:57

I think for me, in one of the things that stuck out for me in Homecoming King, so Tiger, she's my female main character. She is a she was a beauty queen, she was homecoming queen, she was Miss Texas, all this. But when we first meet her in the story, she's putting on overalls and a tool belt because she is she this is a symbol of her changing her life. Like she no longer wants to be known, like she hated that person, but felt pushed into that. And she, but what she more hated was she didn't stand up for herself. So the clothing, the tool belt, the she grabs the sledgehammer, all of those things are because she is changing her life. Like that is the symbol that she is now wanting to become someone new.

Sara 2:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jami 2:49

And I what do you think? What do you think?

Sara 2:51

No, I think that's true. I think that's very true. Yeah. And I think that a lot of this is very it's if you think about it, you see it, but you don't notice it at first. I did that too with Olive's Pearls in the first book of the series. She's getting ready to go to a fancy place and she puts on her mom's pearls. You're able to see that her mother is no longer around. And that's like the symbol of her missing her and her association with her mother. And it's an affluent symbol.

Jami 3:20

And one of the things that the article talks about is how like she uses Jane Ear as an example, and she talks about how in Janear the birds are used a lot, and how all throughout the book birds are used. So it's not just like one scene where that's the thing, it's all throughout the book. And I think that's important when you're using symbolism, that it it's something that carries through.

Sara 3:43

Yeah. And we probably are doing it unconsciously at some points. But then, like in those revision passes, we can go back and maybe highlight it a little bit more. Yeah.

Jami 3:54

Yeah. The next is motifs. And for me, it's the small town. Small town just is a symbol of for me personally a simpler time, a more controlled environment, even though it's kind of out of control. I feel like that my small towns have a very nostalgic feel to them. And that's probably because I'm old. It's, I think for me, that's a big theme in all my books. Just that symbolism of things can be just going back to this a simpler, easier time place.

Sara 4:34

I think so. A motif is something that's repeated. It could be like a design or a color or a place. And I feel like I do the same thing in the 1920s books, except my motif is the English country house. It's the kind of opulent, yeah, exclusive world that you're getting a view into. The other thing that I thought of when I read the definition is like something that's repeated. Do you remember in Sherlock, the TV show, where he would look at people and then on the screen you would see all the words pop up and that would happen again. And so that was a visual way to show like how his thought patterns were going. And I can't think of anything that I'd do like that in my books because that's so visual. Yeah. But if you have something that like for me, if you say English country house, that brings to mind certain things. If you say small town, that brings to mind certain things. It's almost, and that kind of goes into some of the like universal symbols and things we'll talk about, or another category.

Jami 5:40

Yeah, yeah. But also, like in Sweet Talker, running from Sweet Talk Running with a Sweet Talker, Jack is he's very rich, he has his expensive suits, he has his very fancy cars, he has all of these things that the trapping that project to the world that he is a success. But what it hides is that he grew up incredibly poor, like homeless at one point, by only wearing secondhand clothes that his mom got at the Goodwill, but it's not goodwill in the book. And so we I continually put him in those situations where he's one by one losing everything, kind of strip all those symbols of power away. Success. Yeah, success and power away. And so I was thinking about that this morning. Like, I guess that could be that could be symbolism too.

Sara 6:39

Oh, yeah, I think so. All right, and then next up, metaphor, which I feel is very similar to motif. And quoting from the article, it says motifs can also be metaphors. Indeed, some of the best symbols in literature are visual metaphors for thematic elements. You may choose to use fire to represent a character with a hot temper. This one is a little more a little harder. Yes, elusive, yes. But I did think of Monk. Remember his OCD always washing his hands. And so I think that's a metaphor for trying to control things and to bring order to chaos.

Jami 7:18

And with Scarlet, like her home in running from a rock star, she's a kind of a control freak. Like she wants, she is battling her inner wild child. So she's constantly wanting to be the good girl that does the right thing all the time. Everything has to be perfect. And Gavin at one point talks about how he rummaged through some of her drawers, and her underwear drawer was like the woman. It was a it was all her sensible underwear in the front, but then there were a few items of a few thongs and stuff in the back, and it's it was kind of like a mullet uh business in the front part in the back. But that is Scarlet, it's this hidden thing, this kind of inner wild child is this hidden thing throughout the book. There's we see her battling that and losing the battle to this inner wild child all through the book. Yeah.

Sara 8:16

And I just thought of a motif that I've used, but in the new book, The Murder on the SS Cleopatra, letters come up in that so many times because there's letters are part of the mystery. And to solve the mystery, letters are involved. And then there's a subplot with a character who her job involves letters. And there's letters like letters and notes, there's blackmail notes throughout the book, and so it's like now that I think about it, I'm like, okay, that was a motif that was repeated throughout the story. And even I'm trying to remember when I did the special edition, if I put a letter at like at the you can do an image at the chapter head, and I think maybe I used a letter or an envelope, or I thought about it trying to work, trying to figure out how to work that in. Right. So yeah. So sometimes maybe those are the symbols that we use.

unknown 9:09

Yeah.

Jami 9:09

In in running from the law, I stole this. I gave them credit, but I stole this from Nathan Coops. He had told the story.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Oh, that's right.

Jami 9:19

Yeah, when he and his wife, when he was pursuing his wife, and they had been together broken up, and then he wanted he was the one that screwed up. And then he was trying to make it up to her and trying to get back with her. He kept sending her these keys, like all these antique keys, like key to my heart, kind of thing. Like basically saying, I think in the beginning it was that maybe he had held parts of himself back, but this was his way of saying, No, I am I'm all in on this kind of thing. So I used that in the book, and uh Hank uh sends uh Charlie these keys, and she rejects him because she just thinks he's doing it because that's what he's supposed to do, because he's a do the right thing kind of guy. But she decides that she's been wrong this whole time, gives him a piece of pie with a key underneath it, and he won't he says he's not hungry and she's beat the pie because you have to eat the pie. But the key is in the so the keys were all through the book, right?

Sara 10:25

Yeah, so yeah, yeah. I just went and looked, and I did not use the envelope as the chapter header because it wasn't colorful enough. I was using color, so I used a blue lotus, which was the name of the steamer line in the book. Oh, yeah. I love that worked, yeah, exactly.

Jami 10:40

But you could do that like if in a mystery for sure, using things like an oleander flower, because that's definitely poison and dark or spiders, if spiders are in there in running with Sweet Talker when Luann realizes because they're lost, they have no money, no phones, no money, and they're gonna have to sleep outside. And when she realizes she's gonna have to enter the amateur strip contest to try to win the prize money, a thunderclap, yeah. A thunderclap happens that's like signaling doom, like the downfall of her feminism. Because, but then on the other hand, not really because she's taking control fully, she doesn't have to, but yeah, that's a funny part of that book.

Sara 11:26

But that leads right into universal symbols, yeah, which are next, which are symbols that are like ingrained in our psyche in like the weather is one of them. The it gets dark and stormy, it was a dark and stormy night, that's when the murder happens.

Jami 11:40

Exactly. Yeah, or sunshine when you have. I read something one time, and it was she they referred to her as Sunshine Girl. Like, remember what it was? She was like this really happy character and stuff and brought happiness to other people.

Sara 11:56

The seasons, too. That's a often symbolizes transitions, and I just watched K-drama called Our Movie, and it uses the seasons, it opens in its summertime, it looks like, and then it goes through the fall and winter, and it symbolizes a person's journey through life and death, and that's super common, but it it works.

Jami 12:20

Yeah, it does, and I really like it. And in the Hira Nightly Pride and Prejudice, there's the part where after her friend says she's gonna marry Mr. Collins and Elizabeth is on the swing and she twirls it around and then she untwirls it like she's and as she twirls by, it's a different season, and it's that time has passed, and then they move on to the next scene, which is her friend asking to come visit she and Mrs. Costa Poland. But I love that, and then anytime there's a scene like that, I always yeah, makes me think of Notting Hill.

Sara 12:55

I remember when he's walking through the market and it's it's totally changes. And yes, I just watched oh, it was a Japanese drama, and it it was a rom-com, and this guy he leaves work, and as he's going home, he's walking down the street, and as he he walks through all these different events that are going on around him, there's these kids playing, yeah, and then there's school kids, older school kids, and then there's a man kneeling down and proposing, and then there's he walks through an outdoor wedding. So it's interesting because that story is all about him falling, he wants to fall in love and he wants to meet someone, and so he's moving through all these things, but he's not participating in them. And that perfectly symbolizes his life. He's going through the motions, but not doing any of these things. But then, of course, the whole story takes place, it's his journey to doing those things.

Jami 13:43

In the Notting Hills scene, there's the girl where like the first part you see her. I think she has a sonogram picture, and then she's pregnant, and then she has the baby as the seasons change. And there's all there is all this activity going on around things are changing in the background, but he is not. He's stuck in staying. But I also thought of Stephanie Myers in New Moon. In New Moon, for those of you spoiler alert, it's time. Jump ahead. But she in the beginning, Edward leaves, he decides he's bad for Bella and he leaves. And Bella is devastated. And so the way Stephanie Myers symbolized that it's three chapters, might have even been four. Like you flip the page and it's chapter four, and that's all there's nothing else on the page, and then you flip the next page and it's chapter five. And then and when I'm reading it, I'm like, chapter four. I was just balling like a baby. What is wrong with me? But yeah, I mean, it was very effective because you see nothing like he was everything, and he's gone now, and there's nothing, there's just nothing, yeah, nothing for her, yeah, which isn't healthy, and there are a lot. I have there are issues with that, but we're not talking about a lot of people, we're talking about not everything has to be perfectly representative of real life, and right, but I think that's a very great, I think I thought it was a great literary tool because it really conveyed the the desolation of her feeling.

Sara 15:16

Yeah, and a lot of these things they're easier to convey visually than in text. So if you can figure out some way to do it, yeah, and that's a great way that you're it's visual, yeah, but you're still in the text. So I love that too. Yeah. And then the other thing I thought about with this is we use this on covers all the time. If I see a cover and it has an old vintage airplane in the sky in the top, you're like, oh, it's a World War II historical novel, historical romance, historical mystery. If you see a key, that's probably a mystery. If you see crime scene tape, if it's dark, it's like a darker toned story, usually. Yeah, I think we use that on covers a lot.

Jami 15:58

And then the last one is hidden symbolism. I think I probably do this because I don't even know I'm doing it.

Sara 16:03

Because you're you're an instinctive person anyway.

Jami 16:06

Here's the deal with hidden symbolism, it's hard, like most people aren't gonna get it.

Sara 16:09

So I know, but it means a lot to us.

Jami 16:12

Yeah, I don't think I don't think anybody else notices it, but yeah. So for the readers who do get it, it's very significant, powerful, and they're like, Yes, I'm for this.

Sara 16:23

I thought exactly the same thing. I think because it mentioned character names. If you have a character name, it means a lot to me, but people maybe not even notice it. And I worked on duplicity, one of my books, and I was I was layering in all these different things about like Janice, like the two-sided coin, and all this and the names, and oh, it's all and I can't even remember all that now, but I do remember, oh, I'm gonna put this in, I'm gonna put this in because this is a double meaning, and the title was duplicity, and it and I've done that with characters where I had one guy that he was a bad guy, and I was like, Oh, let's make his name, his last name, like bent or dent or something like that. And I thought most people are probably not even gonna pick up on that, but it's fun for me.

Jami 17:09

Exactly. It is fun for the author, it is fun for the reader who gets it, but a lot of most readers won't get it. I did just think of something for in duking it out. He come reluctantly comes back to this small town, his small town or hometown, and he only comes because he's trying to convince the female character, main character, that she says she wants to run away from her famous life. And he's I'll give you if you want normal, I'll give you normal. I'll also give you weird and crazy. So let's go to Ryder, Texas. And so he takes her there. But they're staying at his parents' house, who he has a very fractured relationship with. They have a pig, a pet pig. And the pig is not like a little potbellied pig, it's a full-size pig. But the stepfather got it for the mother because he thought it was a potbellied pig, but but it was not. Throughout this whole, throughout the whole, but the pig is causing and the pig gets him in trouble. And the pig is the pig is the symbol of just chaos that he has tried to run away from the entire time. Now he's he has to go find the pig, and then he gets arrested as the pig ran into someplace, and he all of the stuff, and it makes his life out of control too. It's what he's run away from his whole life.

Sara 18:36

Yeah, yeah. As you were talking, I was thinking of some other ones that came to mind. There's a I don't know if you've seen the show Death Valley. It's it's pretty new. It's on Lipbox, I think. Yeah, but it's got this woman that she is a detective sergeant, and she pairs up with this older man who's a retired actor, and they work together to solve crimes. But for the hidden symbolism, I thought of the because she has an old car that in the beginning she just mentions it once or or twice. You know, oh, the car's in the shop, it broke down. But then later on, you find out that there's a meaning to that car, yeah, and it's very important to her, and there's a reason she won't sell it. Yeah. So in case people haven't seen it, I won't spoil it. But yeah, things like that that are dropped in and you may not realize it. But then later on you go, Oh, that's what that meant, or that's why that was so important. Yeah. And then let's see, there was something else I was thinking of. Oh, in the mentalist, Patrick Jane, he's always eating. Did you notice that when he would go to people's houses and he would open the refrigerator and he'd make a sandwich? Or there was one that he pulls an orange off a tree and starts eating it. And I think that one that's to show like he's just doesn't abide by normal social things. He's like a rogue and just does whatever he wants. But then it's also, I think, that he wants to be connected back into life and normal things. Yeah, but he can't quite, he's not quite there yet. Anything else on hidden symbolism?

Jami 20:13

I'm sure there is. Maybe it's me. Maybe I just don't get it when I see it.

Sara 20:19

I think you do it though all the time in your books, right? I think we do it. I think it's harder in our own books, it's harder to see it, probably.

Jami 20:29

That's the whole point. If you struggle, if you do it instinctively, great. If you don't do it instinctively, it it's worth taking the time to kind of layer it in because it it just can make the story so much richer.

Sara 20:44

Yeah. And one thing we didn't talk about at all was color. And I feel like color is such a rich, and I always notice color, and especially in TV shows, it's easy to see some certain characters will always wear a certain color. Yeah, and that's one way maybe they just have a signature color, or they just always are shown in that kind of light that's easier to do on a TV show.

Jami 21:08

Yeah, like Mayor of Eastwick, is it Eastwick?

Sara 21:11

Eastwick, I think.

Jami 21:12

Yeah, great show. She's very she is a depressive person, she is not a happy person, and she I mean all everything, every color in that show is muted. Everything is muted. Oh yeah, she's muted, but every it's bleak, it's gray. I don't know if there's ever a sunny day when they filmed. It's just everything is bleak, and I think that's that's certainly.

Sara 21:42

Yeah, I think the best, the most interesting thing I've seen color lately is atypical family. And the main character, you don't really, you can't really get a handle on her in the beginning. She has some things that she's doing that you find out later are big character reveal. But in the beginning, she's always in like yellow, very pale yellow, and she's very quiet and she's very willing to do whatever people want. And yeah, she just seems very malleable. And then later on, she wears white, a lot of white. But then when things change, she comes out and she's wearing this blood red sweater, and that's when you really see some of her true personality. And I just thought it was very interesting. And then, of course, the way the clothes are tailored in the beginning is very demure, you know.

Jami 22:32

Yes, exactly.

Sara 22:33

Very demure, very mindful.

Jami 22:35

Yes, very mindful, very demure. But yeah, that's symbolism, y'all. I hope we I hope it got you thinking. We are not experts.

Sara 22:44

I'll put a link to the article in the show notes, and y'all can go check that out yourself. And hopefully this sparks some ideas or gives you some places to start, or maybe go back to your manuscript and give it a little more symbolism, a little more depth, and zhuzh it up. Yes, and then send us a message and tell us what you did because we're curious.

Jami 23:05

And listen, we so appreciate you guys supporting us. We yeah, we really do. Tell you how I don't know, just grateful and appreciated we feel. So thank you.

Sara 23:14

Yeah, it means a lot to us.

Jami 23:16

Yeah, it does. All right, I guess that's it. We'll see y'all next time. Bye.