Jami and Sara on State of the Industry

In this supporter-exclusive chat, we talk about marketing and the state of the author community. Using Written Word Media’s yearly author survey as a jumping off point, we discuss:

• What’s working for marketing
• Marketing spend as a proportion of income
• Common sentiments about the industry
• Where authors are finding support and community

Links mentioned:

📌 Celebrate 300 episodes with us! Send us a voicemail with your favorite moments, most inspiring guests, and best tips: https://www.speakpipe.com/WishIdKnownThen

Written Word Media Author Survey 2025:

https://www.writtenwordmedia.com/2025-indie-author-survey-results-insights-into-self-publishing-for-authors/

Written Word Media Podcast: 

https://pod.link/1828995043

💙 Thanks to all our supporters who made this episode possible! If you’d like to become a supporter go to https://wishidknownforwriters.com/support. You’ll get access to the backlist of exclusive supporter episodes, the private slack group, and a shoutout on a future episode. 

🚀 Jami’s Consulting and Workshops: https://www.jamialbright.com/authorworkshops

❤️ Jami’s books https://amzn.to/3wSraA5

🔎 Sara’s books https://www.sararosett.com/bibliography/

📚 Sara’s How to Write a Series book and audiobook: https://www.sararosett.com/how-to-write-a-series/

The Big List of Craft and marketing books mentioned on WIKT podcast episodes https://bookshop.org/lists/recommenced-resources-for-writers-from-the-wish-i-d-known-then-podcast

Transcript

Sara 0:00

Well, welcome to our December supporter chat, everybody. Hi. We are here. We're doing this the last, this is December 19th. So we're trying to squeeze in one more supporter chat before the end of the year for 2025. And this time we're doing, we're going to look at written word media's. They do a survey of authors every year. Yeah. And so we're going to look at a small portion of it. I'll link to the whole article if you want to go look at it. And they also have a podcast.

unknown 0:27

Yeah.

Sara 0:27

And I talk about it in a podcast episode. So I'll link to both of those. But we're going to focus on marketing. And then the very last section of the episode or the report was about just the sentiment and how people are feeling. And we love our feels.

Jami 0:42

So we talk about the feelings. Exactly. Exactly. And we love written word media. I think both of us have had really good success with it. So they're not supporters, but I mean they're not sponsors, but we like they do a great job. And they're good people. So yeah.

Sara 1:00

Oh, and before we get started, I meant to mention that we are doing, we would love to hear from y'all for our 300th episode. So that's coming up. Probably it will come out in January. We're trying to juggle around the holidays. But we have a link for a voicemail, and it's only like 90 seconds. So if you guys, we would love to hear from especially supporters in this episode. So if we would love to hear about your favorite moments of the podcast, things you've enjoyed, things you've learned, what's inspired you, maybe the authors that you've enjoyed hearing from. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll just dive in. So we're looking at marketing.

Jami 1:37

Yeah.

Sara 1:38

And so what they did in their survey was they broke everyone out. It it they they looked at income levels, and a lot of these are sorted out by income level. But in this section, they asked authors to rate the tactics that were listed on a scale of you know least effective to most effective. Right. So we the the most effective thing that authors were seeing was the email list. Yeah. And I think that's no surprise, right?

Jami 2:06

No surprise to anybody. I it shouldn't be anyway, yeah.

Sara 2:09

Yeah. So basically, if you haven't started an email newsletter list collection cookie, something to give away to dump people in, definitely do that. Second was free or promo sites like free booksy. And I broke out promo sites like free booksy, and then the next effective one was bookbub deals. So book bub has its own special category, which I think makes sense. Yeah, it does.

Jami 2:37

But you know, I mean, it's still so expensive for the fact that it's not really getting working like it was. It's not working like it was. And I saw yesterday that for a 99 cent contemporary romance deal, it's eight hundred dollars.

unknown 2:54

Yeah.

Jami 2:54

I mean, that's a lot at the same.

Sara 2:56

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A free deal. I think I think I did a free deal the last one I did. It was around, you know, eight to nine hundred dollars, I think. Maybe a little bit less. But yeah, it's expensive. Depending on what category you go, because it's huge, you know, because they do it on how how much it's gonna go, how many people it's gonna go out to. Yeah. Yeah, I would say you probably might get more bang for your buck by doing like the smaller promo sets, yeah. Robin Reed's ebook soda, you know, there's a lot that are small and worth your time.

Jami 3:30

Yeah. And in fact, we'll come up with we'll put we'll come up with a list promo sets because there are a couple of others that I've heard are really good, but I want to get some information on them. Let me make myself a note about that. But we'll we'll get that list and we'll get it out to you guys because I think that is I do think they're really effective and they're cost effective as well. Yeah.

Sara 3:54

Yeah. And if you have something that you've worked that's that's worked for you that maybe is not, you know, top of mind, let us know and we can add it to the list. Yeah. And then, you know, because people will share about their deals and that will help that site grow. Right. And then, you know, it's always better to have more people sharing about things. So another one is um fussy librarian. Sometimes I forget about them. And T. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, lots of them. Then next down the list, so we had author email list was most effective, promo sites, then book bug deals, then lead magnets, which you know that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 4:38

Yeah.

Sara 4:38

And then Facebook ads, Amazon ads, then newsletter swaps is second from the bottom. So that kind of surprises.

Jami 4:46

They're not working as much as well anymore.

Sara 4:48

Yeah, yeah. We're kind of running that dry, I guess. Readers may have, I feel like readers have a lot of books now. Yeah. And even if something it has to look really appealing for them to pick it up, I think. Yeah.

Jami 5:01

Yeah. And the last one is book bubs. But yeah, I think the thing is that I mean, I do think the economy is affecting people and they're having to get rid of a lot of their subscriptions. And Kindle Unlimited is one of them. So they are finding those free books places, you know. Uh Zoe, the Zoe Bub is going out, I think today. I can't remember if it's today or tomorrow. But they, you know, I mean, those that's there's a ton of free books on that. And so readers are just kind of loading up on those, I think, right now.

Sara 5:37

Yeah, well, it makes sense. And it it it is a good way though to get people to try your book, you know, if to get the word out about your books. Yeah, that's a good choice if you can do that. And it's cost-free except for sharing on social media. And you can stack promos with it, so that helps too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then so then they had a little summary there, their commentary. You know, they said, you know, your own email list was the one that was number one. And I've seen that in my own experience. Like when I did the letters, the thing that sold the letters was my newsletter list. I did some ads, I did get some sales from that, right? Mostly it was my list. Right. You know, they're just the people that are most engaged. Right. What was funny was the they listed most polarizing was Kickstarter. So either for some it was a huge success, for many, it was a lot of work, but little return. And it was a very all or nothing platform. I think that's probably true.

Jami 6:28

Yeah, I think it is true. I think you have to work the platform, you know. That's that's what people don't really understand. You have to work the platform and the the kind of collabbing with other authors who are doing I mean, not collabing, but you know, like promoting them, them promoting you. Yeah, all of that has to happen.

Sara 6:48

Promotion collaboration, yeah. Yeah, and it you really do have to know something about it. There are plenty of good resources now to find out what to do. Don't just go in there cold and just I was about to say there's really no excuse to go in there cold. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then turned it down ineffectiveness, those newsletter swaps, they're still used, but it says rates rated less effective in previous years possibly due to overuse and less engaged list. And I mean, that's true. If you're hitting your list every month, probably, or every week or two weeks with something new, then people may be like, oh, I'm good right now. I don't need anything else.

Jami 7:24

Right. And I think it might go to or you know, not is your list stagnant because I don't think that's the right word, but how are lists being built as fast as they were back in the day when bonus episode a bonus epilogue or extra material or a novella was would really get engagement and draw people in. And I just don't know if that's happening as much anymore.

Sara 7:53

You know, readers may not be as hungry for that as they used to be.

Jami 7:56

Right, right.

Sara 7:57

Yeah, yeah. And then they had some tips. So one of their categories for earning was high earners. So if you wanted to be a higher earner, you could go look at this list and go down the list and you know, figure out what people were doing. So the high earners, the common patterns among authors earning 5,000 to 20K a month were they had a strong email list, they regularly did use promotion sites, they strategically used Facebook ads, they had pricing and series strategy. And for some, they used direct sales on top of all that.

Jami 8:29

Right.

Sara 8:30

And this it's very rare to see a high earner who's doing no email or spending nothing on marketing.

Jami 8:35

Yeah. So you know, I wonder how many of those were using direct sales, though. Because I mean that's gonna skew things. Not all of them, not all of them, but it is gonna skew things, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Sara 8:48

And you can make a like a direct sale, you're hopefully taking home 90%, 95%, unless you're doing ads, then you gotta calculate that in there. So yeah, but if you're just marketing to your list and doing direct sales, then you could be doing pretty well.

Jami 9:05

Yeah.

Sara 9:06

Yeah. Average spend. All right, so oh they broke it down according to income bracket.

Jami 9:12

Yeah, so this is how much outers are spending on marketing.

Sara 9:15

Yes, yes, and this is important because this is something that doesn't get talked about hardly at all. It's a very quiet, it is a very quiet statistic. Only mentioned in the survey when you can be anonymous, I guess. But um, if they're making over $10,000 a month in income, the average spend was $4,500 a month.

Jami 9:36

Yeah.

Sara 9:36

So, you know, but then so take that $10,000 and subtract about $5,000 from it, and that's what you're getting, really.

Jami 9:45

And I will tell you, when I was making that, I was spending about $4,500 a month. I mean, you know, and I got some pushback from people, but you know what? It got it kept things moving and kept my name out there and kept my books sticky in Amazon. And that's you know, so you have to kind of weigh it against that. And people that say, Oh, I spend 20 to 30 percent on that on marketing. I'm so impressed with you, but that is not how it worked for me and a lot of my friends. A lot. I was not the only one spending that. Yeah, I don't think that's I think that's probably the case today, too.

Sara 10:26

I don't think that's changed that much. Nope. Yeah, I don't either. Yeah, so I won't hit all these other ones, but let's drop down to like $1,000 to $5,000. Authors who are making that per month, they're spending about $500 on marketing, which is a better ROI.

Jami 10:43

You know, you're getting a better ROI for that, but more take-home pay there. Yeah, yeah.

Sara 10:48

So it's under $100. If you're making under $100, people are still spending an average of $81 a month. So that's not which is interesting. Yeah, that's so interesting. It may be a I'm I'm investing for the future, you know, it may be that. Yeah, that's a that's a pretty high spend if you're making under $100. Yeah. I mean, if you're making $100 or under. Yeah. And then the $100, if you're making five $100 to $500, there people those people are investing on an average of $150 a month, rounding, because I'm bad with math, especially verbal.

Jami 11:32

And those people are spending $275 a month. So it's very really interesting.

Sara 11:37

Yeah, yeah. And it's almost like, do you want, I mean, and they did talk about this on their podcast. They said a a large portion of the people who responded are doing this. They said it was like a third, like a third of people were just doing it because they love it. A third of the people wanted to do it as, you know, their job. And I can't remember the other third. But it was like a breakout of not everybody wants to make, you know, ten thousand dollars a month. No, no, and so if you're you know happy making $500 a month or $100 a month, then that's fine. And you know, you don't have to, you may be doing marketing to try and reach people that you think will enjoy your book, but maybe that's the only reason you're doing marketing, right? Not to, you know, climb the ladder of success financially.

Jami 12:22

Right, exactly.

Sara 12:23

Exactly. Yeah, okay. So let's see, we're gonna hop down. Anything else you want to look at there? No. Okay. Let's go down, let's go to our favorite section, sentiment and community.

Jami 12:39

Yeah.

Sara 12:39

The emotional snapshot of the industry.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

Yeah.

Sara 12:42

It says after reading hundreds, this is a quote, after reading hundreds of responses, here's the vibe. Hopefully but tired, motivated but overwhelmed, committed but facing a lot of uncertainty. Yeah. So I think that fits pretty well with what we're hearing, right?

Jami 12:58

On the podcast. What do you think? Yeah, no, for sure. And not just in the podcast, but like in the groups I'm in. And I mean, I'm in I'm in a couple of high-level groups, you know, with some really high-earning authors. I'm connected. I know people, y'all. I know people. And I'm hearing this exact thing like it's looking scary, but we're gonna be hopeful. We're just gonna keep pushing, we're just gonna keep writing, and we're gonna hope that things turn around. I mean, that's and that's really all we can do. I mean, yeah.

Sara 13:31

There's I mean, unless you're just gonna say, okay, I'm done, and I'm gonna go work at another nine to five or whatever, which is totally legitimate.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

Yeah.

Sara 13:40

But I think most of us are in this because we love it. Yeah, but people who've been in it for a long time are in it because we love it, you know, and so we're gonna keep doing it. It's not like we're gonna stop.

Jami 13:50

Right. And we won't just love the writing because we do, but we love all of it. Like we love the marketing, we love the sort of the game of it, you know. Like, what can we accomplish?

Sara 14:01

You know, love the creativity of it, yeah. Exactly. Can you do? Yeah, creative marketing too. I feel like if you can come up with a really cool, you know, lead magnet, yeah, that's fun and interesting, you know, not just that's not a slog. Some other portions of it can be like yeah, figuring out where your autoresponders go. Yeah, like like what what's hooked up where behind the scenes.

Jami 14:25

And it's interesting because I've I've kind of was doing this thing with Chat GBT recently and about 2026. Like, you know, I mean, I'm gonna put a book out, but I want my backlist books to sell more. I mean, I make money every month, and what I make is profit because I'm not running any ads, but it's a piddly amount compared to you know what I think I used to be making. Well, it used to be, but more than that, what what I think I should be with seven bucks or yeah, seven books. And excuse me, but one of the things that Chat GPT said was that you know, a lot of us, me in particular, that have been doing this a while, we are applying, we are trying to make 2026 money using 2019, well, 2017 to 2019 tactics, and that is not working anymore. And one of the reasons is ads because of the way that you know Facebook, yeah, things are changing with AI and things like that. And I think that there was a dis AI is a disruption, huge disruption, and there hasn't been a chance because it continues to evolve, there hasn't been a chance for things to level out. Like just when we think we understand something or we're we're getting a groove, it changes again because they update or they whatever. And that is making it really difficult for everybody, you know.

Sara 15:53

Yeah, and that's like one of the common theme themes is marketing fatigue, is the first one listed. It's hard, it's expensive, I'm not sure what works.

Jami 16:02

Yep.

Sara 16:02

And I mean, that's the deal. We don't know, like you said, we're trying to do the things that we did in the past, but we're not getting the same results.

Jami 16:11

Nope, because they just don't work anymore.

Sara 16:12

Yeah, and so we're figuring out, and the market is very fractured now. In the past, you really only had wide and KU. And if you were in wide, you did these things and knew you could, you know, achieve a certain status, you know, yeah, income level, and you know, you could get your books visible if you did these things. Wide was kind of the same way, and now everything's so different. Like if you want to be wide, you can be wide and not do anything except be wide. You can be wide and do a Kickstarter, you can be wide and do direct sales, right? You know, there's just so many different variables, and each one of those has its own little tweaks to it that you can do. So yeah, there's no easy recipe for success right now. Then let's see, common another common thing with was the algorithm, like you mentioned in platform fatigue, everything's changing. Yeah, loneliness. It feels like it's just me and my keyboard was another common theme.

Jami 17:07

Yeah.

Sara 17:07

So I mean, I feel that more than I do. I mean, I I don't mind being alone. Right, right with my keyboard.

Jami 17:15

Yeah, I don't mind being alone, but I think it's more like to this would be my interpretation of it. That people are alone in their in their fear, in their, you know, things are not working the same. A lot of people don't want to admit that. They don't wanna they don't want to share that. And so that I don't understand because, like, you know, y'all know I way over share. But but I don't understand it because like don't stay stuck in that place. It is so scary, it is such a scary place. So anyway, that's me.

Sara 17:55

Yeah, I can see that, and that makes sense because I do want connection. I don't mind being alone when I do my writing and stuff, but I do want to talk about it. I do want friends in the industry to talk about you know what's happening and the changes we see. And right, and I guess I have that enough of that for me that I don't feel lonely about being in the industry. Yeah, I do feel that connection. So I would say if that's how you're feeling, you know, reach out to you know, online, try and find some people who are in your area in person. It's so much better to do that in person or go to a conference because that's where you can really meet some people in person. And even if you're not in the same state or country, you can still stay in touch. Correct. Yeah. And then their last one for common themes was but also optimism. Authors are proud of their books, many are seeing results, and there's a strong desire to keep going. So I feel like we kind of hit those things as well, even though things are not, you know, they're not what they were, but like coming at this from like my first book came out in 2006. So like I saw the traditional industry fall apart in 2008, and a bunch of authors just, you know, lost their contracts. And then around 2012, things changed with ebooks began to be more mainstream, and so like everything I knew from 2006, I had to totally throw that out the window. Right. And basically start over. Right. And so then we were I rode this indie wave for a little bit, and now I feel like it's changing again. Yeah. So it's it's all cyclical, you know, and I don't feel like I'm not like, oh, I can't figure this out, I'm gonna give up. Right. You just gotta keep going.

Jami 19:45

I think for me. Well, you know, Joanna Penn said something one time uh when she was on the podcast, I think it was it might have been right after my sister died. I can't remember, but because I was like, you know, I mean, I I can't I'm not gonna I'm not gonna give up, or you only you only fail if you quit. And she was like, Yeah, but maybe you need to quit. You know what I mean? Like for some people, it depending on your motivation and what you're in this for, maybe maybe quitting is what you need to do, you know what I'm saying? But if you don't want to quit, then don't. And and figure out to make a way to make it work and a way to make it enjoyable. And I have I've sort of found that place for myself. I I do get lonely just sitting here. So I go somewhere every day. I go to Starbucks every day, same Starbucks, they know me. There is some familiarity there, and so that is enough for me not to feel like I am riding in a hole by myself. And so, you know, find the ways that that make it work for you and make it feel not so isolating or whatever.

Sara 20:59

Yeah, and we've talked to several people this last year that that you know the world might look at them or the publishing community might look at them and think, oh, they gave up. But actually, they just found what was perfect for them. Like Katie Cocking, who's doing the mystery books book box, yeah. She said she's using all of her strengths now and she's loving her life. And it's she gets to do all these things with the book boxes that she couldn't do with publishing. And like Alyssa has gone into sort of almost I would call it like book coaching. Like she's and she's written the book about the birthing book. Yeah, you know, and so things like that is it may be perceived by other people as giving up or you know, not continuing on, but maybe it's you know, people find maybe you find where you feel the best and you're the happiest. Right. And that that's better, you know, a change like that is way better.

Jami 21:56

Right, right. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Okay, so let's see. Is there anything else we wanted to hit on? Well, it's not you. Let's just put it that way. Like this is one of the things. It's not you. It's not just you. You are not alone. And that is the problem with keeping it all to yourself and being worried about your ego and being worried about your pride. And it is not just you. It is, it is everyone is struggling. And I listen, y'all, I know some really, really successful authors. And they're still doing well because they are at the top. I mean, they're the top one in one percent, but they're not doing as well as they were. They're still doing better than the rest of us, but they're not doing as well as they were.

Sara 22:39

And we have these expectations that it's going to continually be an upward path. And sometimes it's not. No. And just because the and a lot of that is not us, it's the industry changes and things change. So, but that's one of their points as well. It's not just you, it is in the article. And then, oh, I'd also highlighted they have a section on burnout and community fatigue. It says, alongside some of the positives, some authors are stepping back from groups due to drama, information overload, and time suck. And I've seen that in my personal life, I've seen that in my groups. We I was in a group, a kind of a mastermind, and not that we were tired of each other, but we were like, I think we're kind of done.

Jami 23:24

We've mastered the mind.

Sara 23:25

Yeah. We're kind of all branching out and doing our own thing. And then we're it's at a good point to say goodbye to this group, you know, not to each other. Yeah. But I think that's pretty common.

Jami 23:35

Yeah, I agree.

Sara 23:37

And then it says others have found a healthier balance by choosing one or two core communities, which I think that's really smart.

Jami 23:44

Yep.

Sara 23:44

Muting the rest, really smart, and protecting their writing time. I mean, you got to do that, which I have not done that as well this last year. I think I didn't work on that in 2026, but I've done other stuff, but I haven't done book writing stuff. I've done letters and yeah, marketing stuff. So yeah, you know, phases and seasons, things come and go. So I'm not disappointed with what I did.

Jami 24:08

No, no. And I think that the whole muting the rest, you know, that's I I got out of a lot of groups. Um, I won't name them, but I mean, like I have I have one group of authors that I've known since 2016 that I'm in a signal group with us and Pete Hex. How trendy are you? Pete Hex. We didn't get the touch, we didn't get the message. We were real disappointed. But anyway, and then a Facebook Lake Messenger group. Those are my two groups, those are my two author groups, and then my clubhouse room in the morning. But the rest of it, I'm not it really in any author groups on Facebook. If I if I am, I don't ever go in there and stuff because I don't want to get caught up in other people's stuff. You know, I know these, I trust these people, I know these people, and I they know me, and I know they have my best interested heart, and I know I have their best interested heart. And we can't have the entire world's best interested heart. You know, I mean, you have to kind of and for somebody like me, that is a big lesson. You know, I mean, you have to pair back and and decide who who you're gonna invest your time in. Yeah.

Sara 25:31

Me too. And I don't have a huge, I mean, I do know a lot of people in the industry now, especially from doing the podcast. Yeah, but I feel like my close friends, I've never had a huge circle of super close friends. But yeah, for the groups, I was in a lot of groups and I'm really I'm still have them. Like if I had a question, I could go in there and ask the question. But you know, I'm high input, high learner. And so I've learned that if I go in there and somebody's talking about something, I and I and I'm into it, I'm like, oh my goodness, tell me all the details. And I start, and I spend way too long, and there's just way too much information that you can absorb that really doesn't matter in the long run. Or drama, drama, or other people's woe is me, you know.

Jami 26:17

And yeah, and we don't need that. Like we already have enough. Yeah, we have our own thing. Yeah, and it will, it will bring you down, it'll make you start looking. I mean, that is the big thing right now, I think, that more than how much can you write, how fast can you write, I think it's how how mentally strong are you? Yeah, how mentally strong are you, and how what resources do you have to weather this? Because it's not gonna, it's gonna change, it's not gonna be all horrible. Like back 20 years ago, I've said this when the ebook came out and and Amazon started their thing. That was like the darkest time in publishing. Y'all, that revolutionized everything, you know. I mean, so it's the same way, and it worked out for us. Like it revolutionized everything, and it worked out for us. I believe we're we're gonna see something similar. We just have to ride it out.

Sara 27:16

Yeah. And on that note, I remember when I was querying, everybody would be like, oh, it's the market's just really tight right now. It's just really a hard sell. Things are just not going well. And I was like, I learned after, you know, a couple of years, I was like, okay, the market is always tight, things are always difficult. And so it's just a different, we're in a different phase now where we had, you know, a phase where in many ways it was easier. It was easier to find readers, but there were a lot of difficulties that we tend to forget. Like we get like we there were so many things that like we did we couldn't do print books as easily as we can now. We couldn't do all these special editions.

Jami 27:58

You couldn't do exactly you couldn't reach drugs. Yeah, you couldn't reach readers generally, like with drug sales. I mean, you know, there's a lot, and and I think that the the that is, you know, the challenge right now, just trying not to take it personally also, because I have y'all know, y'all have heard me. I've taken it personally that nobody wants to read my good books. Come on, y'all.

Sara 28:24

I mean there are books from our heart, you know. Yes, they're not something we're exactly wanting people to connect with them and enjoy them. And when they don't or they don't find them, it's very hard not to take it personally.

Jami 28:35

Yes, but it's not, it's not personal, it is the market. We are in a business. I mean, it that's the weird thing about what we do. We write books that are so we use this creative side of our brain and we love the creative process, and yet we're in a business that is really volatile. So and there are a lot of people I'm hearing right now that are wanting to go track go back to Trad because it seems safe.

Sara 29:04

And I can tell you that okay, so just because this is a supporter chat, yeah, I'll just be honest, don't do it.

Jami 29:13

Yeah, unless unless they come for you, unless they come for you. And you like meaning that yeah, unless they meet, unless they you are so successful that they come looking for you, don't do it. Right.

Sara 29:27

If you can write your contract, that's totally different. Yep. Yeah, because and some people may love it, and that's fine. But as somebody who's done both things, for me, I know that this is the better choice, or like a hybrid model where I give them a portion or a license stuff to them.

Jami 29:45

Right. Or you have a book that is only good for trad publishing, you know. I mean, I've thought about it because of the book I'm writing, but but my comp my thing with that is the time, you know, like even if I sold this book tomorrow, it would be at least a year before it came out, maybe 18 months. And I don't want to wait that long. So that's it's not for me.

Sara 30:11

It may be for some people, it's not for me. Yeah, and the other thing is you are pretty much giving up the rights to your book. Yep. For I got on with Quad, I think, and I had it review my contracts. And because they brought out the audiobooks, those are considered a digital edition. Right. And so as long as there's a digital edition, they will never be considered out of print. And so the earliest I can get them back is there's I forgot what the law is, but they passed a law that after 30 years, you can get your stuff back. So Claude was so funny. It was like, here's how to begin to prepare in 2034, 2033, prepare this letter. You know, because it'll give you action steps. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jami 30:57

So anyway, that's kind of off the subject, but but the whole point being when things are unstable and things are not the way we think they should be, our tendency is to, or some of us, our tendency is to do something because we want to fix it. But I think right now what we're in is a waiting period and a holding period. And let's just see what happens when the dust settles. Like keep doing what you're doing, keep moving forward. If this is what you want to do, keep writing your books, keep finding, you know, I mean, writing the books for that audience that you know will love these books, and they will find it. When the dust settles, there may be better ways for us to find them. But right now, we're just in a holding pattern.

Sara 31:49

Yeah. And I did real quick want to go back to like finding your core communities, yeah. The one or two communities. And I feel like where you go to find out what's going on and to connect with people, in my mind, I feel like it's better if it's not a Facebook group or if it's something like a podcast, a Patreon group, a private Slack group where you go, you you talk to people, and then you can leave. It's not a constant feed of information, although I guess Patreon groups and Discords and stuff can have that. But I feel like if you're I'm trying to be more intentional with where I find information and where I connect, where it's not just the random algorithms.

Jami 32:36

And where you can curate, you can curate the people that you are listening to and that are in your ear. And that's so important, y'all. So important. And that's why we're so appreciative that you listen to us, that you find us to be those people that give good information and that have a good attitude and don't bring you down. So yeah, we yeah, and we're appreciative that you share that with us and let us know.

Sara 33:03

And thank you for supporting. We really appreciate it.

Jami 33:05

We really do. Thank you so so much. It it means, I mean, we say it all the time, but it really does mean a lot to us. Just I can't even tell you how much. So it helps us keep going.

Sara 33:17

Yep. But I guess that is about it. Um to the article, and don't forget to send, don't forget to send us a voicemail. We'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear from you. All right.

Jami 33:27

Take care, y'all have a great day.