Kristie Middleton on why engineering breakthroughs are essential for low-cost plant-based alternatives

Kristie Middleton is  vice president of business development for Rebellyous Foods where she and her team help institutions add more plant-based options to their menus. Kristie’s also the author of MeatLess: Transform the Way You Eat and Live—One Meal at a Time and a long-time animal advocate. 

Rebellyous Foods has created novel manufacturing technology in order to make plant-based chicken more affordable to the masses. Mainly targeting food service providers such as universities and school districts, Kristie, who is Vice president of business development at the venture capital funded company, uses her experience from her days at The Humane Society to ensure that this product is a clean and price comparable product in those markets.

A great episode for those interested in all things plant-based meats and how to scale a company providing this type of product to the masses. 

Relevant links to things mentioned throughout the show:

• Kristie Middleton: MeatLess: Transform the Way You Eat and Live—One Meal at a Time
• In a recent interview with The Food Institute with Christie Lagally 
• 50% of all meals served in Sodexo university settings will be plant-based by 2025
• Request For Proposals for something called Mock2
• Josh Balk episode on our podcast
• AG funder interview re continuous process vs batching
• Podcast: Business for Good (start-ups)
• Food BizWiz by Aly Ball about getting food start-up products into retail
• Rebellyous Foods Hiring

(00:00) START
(04:23) ABOUT REBELLYOUS FOODS
(09:31) PATENTED EQUIPMENT
(16:47) EDUCATING THE CONSUMER
(22:12) A GOOD APPROACH MAKES A DIFFERENCE
(28:24) THE MOCK 2
(34:53) ADVANTAGES TO COMPANIES FOCUSED ON PROFIT
(45:46) OTHER AREAS THAT NEED INNOVATION
(51:38) MOMENTS THAT INSPIRED CAREER CHANGE
(01:02:31) FOCUS ON THE MISSION
(01:06:05) CLOSING QUESTIONS

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Transcript

Kristie: We're estimating, based on the number of districts that we're working with, that our products are available to over 3 million students. Doesn't mean that 3 million students are eating it, but they have access to them on their menus. And so, we're on menus at over 200 school districts right now, which is just a dream come true. And, you know, if you think about it, in just a few short years, we've been able to generate that many customers and the product is selling great. We get fabulous feedback, as I'm sharing with you. But for me, as somebody who has devoted my life to this, even when we got the first customers, like, oh my God, I can't believe that our products are actually on school menus. This is what we hoped would happen, and now it's actually happening. So, it's a dream come true. 

Amy: Hi, my name is Amy. 

James: And my name is James. 

Amy: And this is How I Learned to Love Shrimp, a podcast about promising ways to help animals and build the animal advocacy movement. Rebellyous Foods has created novel manufacturing technology in order to make plant-based chicken more affordable to the masses, mainly targeting food service providers such as universities and school districts across the US. Kristie, who is vice president of business development at the venture capital funded company, uses her experience from her days at the Humane Society to ensure that this product is clean and price comparable in those markets. Featuring many, many cameos from her cat, this episode is a real insight into the inner workings of a mission-driven business in this field. 

We talk through the challenges of the plant-based alternative industry, distribution issues, and hear some amazing case studies of students donning disguises to re-join the queue to get another Kickin’ Nugget, proving that their product must taste great, as well as helping animals. 

Another exciting news: we're now releasing the video versions of our episodes on YouTube. More information and a link to the YouTube episodes can be found on our website where you can also find the transcripts for each episode. Here's another great episode for you today. 

James: We are joined by Kristie Middleton, who is the vice president of the business development for Rebellyous Foods, where she and her team help institutions add more plant-based options to their menus. Kristie is also the author of ‘MeatLess: Transform the Way You Eat and Live One Meal at a Time’, and a long-time animal advocate. So welcome, Kristy. Thanks for joining us!

Kristie: Thanks so much for having me here. I'm excited for this conversation!

James: Yeah, us too. I think, yeah, we're excited to talk to someone who's had a few different experiences, both working in the non-profit animal space, as well as the kind of for-profit, plant-based food space. I think we're quite keen to kind of pick your brain on everything related to those two worlds. 

Who's someone in the animal advocacy movement or the alternative protein industry that you find particularly inspiring? And why is that? 

Kristie: The person who really inspires me is Josh Balk, who I know you all had on as a subject for our previous interview. Josh and I are good friends and worked together previously at the Humane Society of the United States, where he was vice president of Farmed Animal Protection. He's also, for your listeners who have not heard the interview yet, the co-founder of Eat Just, which is a company that does plant-based eggs. And he also is the founder of the Accountability Board, where they're using shareholder advocacy to help corporations make better policies regarding animal welfare and sustainability. But he's somebody who just works relentlessly every single day to make the world a better place, is an outside-of-the-box thinker, and just one of the nicest people you will ever meet. So he's definitely the person who I look to for inspiration and a sounding board and just think, is somebody who is making a tremendous difference in the world. 

James: Yeah, I think basically everyone who Amy and I speak to say that Josh is probably one of the nicest people that they've ever met. And, yeah, I think we'll also link the previous episode. So, I think, like you said, Josh has done quite a wide range of things. And, yeah, I think the Accountability Board is doing some amazing kind of innovative work. So, we'll definitely link that for people who want to check it out as well. 

Amy: So, let's just talk about the top line for Rebellyous Foods, then. What is it that you do there, and how is it unique in the now quite saturated plant-based meat space? 

Kristie: Yeah, so I am vice president of business development for Rebellyous Foods, where we make delicious, affordable, plant-based meat. We do plant-based chicken, specifically nuggets, patties, and tenders. So, the industry calls that further processed chicken. And what we're doing that's really unique is we're addressing the manufacturing technology. So, a lot of plant-based meat is made using mix and form production, which is essentially a dough making process. But what we're doing is developing technology that will allow for a continuous process, and we can dive a little bit more into that throughout the conversation, but it would allow for us to make plant-based meat more affordably scalable and hopefully widely available while also taking out some of the backbreaking work for the people who are involved in the production. And scale and affordability are some of the biggest challenges in the plant-based meat industry. So, I'm really excited to work for our company that hopefully will allow for us to make plant-based meat that's affordable for everyone. 

Of course, as you all know, so many of the global health organisations, climate organisations, are saying we need to eat less meat as a society so we can improve public health or so that we don't kill ourselves as a species. But there's really no way that we can do that unless we do it affordably for everyone. And so that's something that we're addressing at Rebellyous. 

Amy: Yeah, really interesting. And so that's predominantly just in the US right now?

Kristie: It is, yeah. So hopefully, at some point, we will be selling internationally, but right now, our key customers are actually institutional food service providers. So mostly school districts. And we do have a line for retail, but it represents a very small percentage of our business. 

James: I think there's lots of unique things that you guys are doing, which we wanted to chat about. And, yeah, in some ways, like you said, such an important part of a role to play in the plant-based meat industry, given recent challenges. 

But I guess specifically, I wanted to start with the CEO of Rebellyous Foods, Christie Lagally. And she said in an interview that Rebellyous is the only company that she knows of that’s addressing the logistical, biological, and production aspects of alternative protein production from the ground up. So, getting at this manufacturing component. But do you mind also unpacking a bit, like what Christie Lagally meant by that and why that's important? 

Kristie: Yeah, it's a really great question. I guess I'll start with a little bit of history of Rebellyous and kind of how the company came to be. Pre me joining Rebellyous, I was with the Humane Society of the United States, where I was working with a team of food service providers. So, people who had come from the food service industry, dietitians, chefs, former food service directors. So, what we were doing was helping large-scale feeding operators with getting more plant-based options on their menus. So, schools, hospitals, the military, colleges, universities, et cetera. Christie Lagally, our founder and CEO of Rebellyous, was a volunteer who at the time was a mechanical engineer for Boeing. And she and I had worked together to get Boeing to do meatless Monday. And so that's how she and I started working together in some capacity at the same time. 
So, my team at the Humane Society was helping these institutions. One of the things that we kept running into was they loved the idea of having more plant-based options on their menus. They were seeing a lot more requests from their customers for those, or just hearing about the industry’s move toward that. But they didn't have the time. They didn't have the kitchen equipment; they didn't have the staff to do a lot of scratch cooking. They needed really easy heat and serve solutions to some of their most popular menu items. And those tend to be chicken nuggets, chicken patties, chicken tenders. So, of course, the chicken industry makes up the lion's share of the meat industry, at least in the US. 

And then beyond that, if you look at the chicken products that are being sold, the further processed represent more than 50% of what chicken is purchased. And so, we decided is that we really needed somebody to solve the problem of making plant-based chicken that was delicious, that was available through mainstream distribution channels, and most important, that was affordable. So, it had to be at price parity or even less expensive than chicken for these users to be able to add it to their menus. And I talked to lots of prospective entrepreneurs over the years, but nobody could really come up with a solution to the cost-effectiveness. Everybody kind of assumes that as you buy more ingredients, the price will come down, and that's true, but only to a certain extent. 

If we want to get to price parity with a product that is subsidised by the government, we had to really think about how it's manufactured. Now, I didn't know this at the time, but Kristie, with her engineering background, really looked at ‘Why is chicken so cheap?’ Of course, there's the subsidies, but also it is the processing. So most further processed chicken is done on equipment that was designed for every piece of that process. It's customised for it. Whereas in plant-based meat, we've been using what we call off the shelf or like, this kind of template equipment to produce the product, which means that it's not necessarily uniquely suited for each part of the process of plant-based meat preparation. 
And so Kristie has developed, with the rest of our team, patented equipment that addresses some of the current bottlenecks to making plant based meat affordably. And we're currently building that equipment out to start producing our plant-based chicken using it. So, I guess to circle back to what she meant by that, we don't know of any other companies that are addressing the equipment side of plant-based meat production by creating novel production equipment that will allow for us to scale and make this product more affordable for everyone. 

Amy: I think that's really interesting. I know from when I was working with ProVeg on the school plates program, and that was about getting more plant-based options into schools distribution, having the quantities available for schools at a price that was appropriate comparatively to the meat alternatives was just such a huge barrier. Sometimes we were asking them to put a plant-based meat on the menu, and actually they were having to just go and buy it from a supermarket for those specific children that requested it, rather than being able to order it through their regular distribution channels that would normally provide all the rest of their food. And actually, when you're looking at sort of 75 pence, or a pound, or just over a dollar per child for school menus, they're having to look at every single penny and what that's spent on. 
So, yeah, I'm really interested in your approach there. So rather than kind of thinking initially about the product straight away, and also just really incorporating that whole process and making sure that it's suitable for the industry that you really want to target, which I think is absolutely key because we know as consumers that so many of the products are still so expensive, right? James, you were speaking recently about being in South America and going for a beyond burger or something, and it being – what was it in terms of cost? 

James: It was like eight plus US dollars per pack of two. Like ten. So, I think, yeah, pretty significant given important stuff. 

Kristie: Yeah, absolutely. And don't get me wrong, I think that there are a lot of companies out there that are coming up with very unique solutions and I think we need a variety of approaches. Yet, we also feel really strongly that we need to bring down the price because most consumers are not going to be able to pay two to five times the price that they would pay for a chicken nugget just to have a plant-based version. If it's delicious, if it's available in their regular channels, and also if it's affordable, then they'll make it a more regular part of their diets. And there's really nobody else that we know of looking at manufacturing technology that will solve for that. And we've certainly heard inklings from other companies that they would like to bring their prices down, and hopefully they'll find other ways to do that. But as we know right now, nobody's working on the manufacturing technology side of things. 

James: I'm curious to hear why you think that is. Because I would think that most companies, not all of them, want to get a price down, want to reach more people. And obviously venture capital funding really wants this to happen as well. So, I'm curious, why do you think that other companies aren't working on the manufacturing and the equipment side of things? Is it a lack of the expertise that Christie has from a Boeing experience, or do you think it's something else? And, yeah, why do you think that gap exists? 

Kristie: Yeah, I would love to know the answer to that. I mean, certainly there's loads of talent out there, founders who are coming at this from a variety of different backgrounds. There’re different solutions that we're seeing to animal agriculture, whether it's cellular ag. or fermentation. I think that there's just a variety of people who have a different idea for how they're going to address this issue. And perhaps there's nobody else who's coming as a founder from that mechanical engineering side who's really looked at this as being the solution. I think that there's a recognition that somebody needs to do it. And we've been talking with some of the other plant-based meat companies about perhaps at some point serving as a contract manufacturer for them. So, we'd be able to use this novel equipment to run, say, another plant-based meat company's product on our line, and then we would be able to extend the lower price to them. So, they would also hopefully be able to bring down their prices. 

So, of course, this might sound counterintuitive, because we want to be a brand that's sustainable and stands on our own, so why would we want to make others’, our competitors’ products more affordable? But at the end of the day, it's because we're a mission-oriented company. We actually care about trying to make a better world, save animals, protect people's health, and also, of course, improve the climate. And we'll find a way to ensure that we're also bringing profitability to the table if were to go down that route. 

Amy: Speaking of the industry as a whole then, what do you think are two or three critical challenges that face the plant-based industry right now? 

Kristie: Well, funding right now is a big one. So, for start-ups, unfortunately, we've seen a lot of our contemporaries fail because they're running out of funding, and we're just not as flush with cash as we were before the economy tanked. So, I think we'll start to see a lot more companies fail, or we'll continue to see companies fail if they're not really being very smart with their funding, and also if they can't come up with additional resources to generate funding, whether it's government grants or getting further capital investments. So that's definitely a big concern right now. 

I think also still seeing consumer confusion, because, of course, the meat industry continues to come out with radical claims against what's in the ingredients that are in plant-based food or using a health halo of meats. So, I think it does continue to confuse consumers. You know when I run into people with whom I share I work for a plant-based meat company and they're like: ‘Well, what about soy?’ And you continue to hear those kinds of questions. 

So, I think that will continue to be a challenge for the industry as well as a crowded market. So, I think with, as I mentioned, a lot of companies that are failing, unfortunately, it does mean fewer companies that are crowding the market. But that also does tend to be an issue when you have a lot of products sometimes that have been raced to completion, that I think are not as good as they can be. So, if somebody tries a competitive product and they didn't like it, then they just kind of assume all plant-based chicken is disgusting. And so we want to make sure that anything that's coming out in that crowded market is a standout product. And hopefully we'll see those that are actually really good continuing to thrive. 

James: I'm curious to hear more from you on the second point you mentioned about consumer confusion around whether it's the ingredients in the products or everyone's now heard of this ultra-processed thing that's also being pushed by the meat industry. What is Rebellyous Foods doing about this, if anything? And I'm kind of curious: what do you think the plant-based food markets more broadly has been doing? And do you think it's kind of been enough to, I guess, combat this issue? 

Kristie: We're not really involved in policy, and we are not funded to do a lot of consumer education or marketing. I feel like what we're doing more is just we have a really good product with a clean label. If you look at it, there's only one ingredient that most people wouldn't recognize, and that's methylcellulose, which is in virtually every plant-based meat. And it's fibre; it's just a fancy name for fibre. It's very clean, primarily soy-based, with some wheat protein in one of our lines. And if people ask us questions – we're typically working with school food service providers or food providers at other large-scale institutions – then we just educate them on what the ingredients are that they're concerned about. 
But at the end of the day, it's really just making a delicious product that when people try it they think this tastes just like chicken or better than chicken. In fact, that's a statement that we've heard a number of both the food service providers and their customers say. We did a school food show back in June last year, maybe July, and it was a national show. So, school food service providers from all across the country came, but they also had a group of student ambassadors who they sent to a few of the different booths to try out products and give feedback. And we didn't know that later those students were going to be on stage, giving feedback publicly to the thousands of attendees, which is pretty cool because, yeah,  they came on stage and they actually said – they didn't name us by brand but they said: ‘We tried this vegan chicken, and it's way better than what they serve at our school, including the chicken nuggets.’ So, we got phenomenal feedback from that. So really relying on taste and a pretty clean product. 

We are selling some into retail, and I feel like that's where you get a little more scrutiny with customers looking for non-GMO verification organic products if you're selling in some of the natural channels. But retail is a very small percentage of what we do. 

James: You have a much smaller number of customers, mainly like food service providers, rather than trying to go direct to consumers where there's like a whole big base. But I guess, do you think there's been sufficient mobilisation or coordination amongst the companies? Because I guess from the outside it doesn’t seem that there's been much. But obviously, like you said, it's very difficult when you're both tight on funding and then you're thinking, should I be spending money on educating consumers about this stuff versus surviving? So, I guess, is that one of the key challenges in why we haven't seen more of this kind of like consumer education? 

Kristie: I think so. Honestly, there are great advocacy organisations, whether it's the Good Food Institute or the Plant Based Foods Association, that are working on both policy, but also consumer education. I think it's just a hard thing to address with consumers when they're just getting messages from so many different sources. In terms of the industry itself and not the trade organisations that are supporting it, we definitely have a lot of work to do in that area. So, I certainly would welcome additional thoughts or ideas for things that we can do differently. But again, it's just a matter of being super transparent about what our products are, what our ingredients are, and debunking myths as we get questions from consumers. 

Amy: Who drives that demand in that school space? Is it the service providers? I think you touched on this at the beginning that perhaps the providers are hearing that they maybe want from the students, I guess, that they want to have those products in. Is it definitely kind of a student voice that leads that or is it a kind of institutional voice where they're wanting to transition to something more healthy? What are those kind of main drivers that see an institution who you have even maybe not worked with before, coming to Rebellyous Foods and asking for that product? 

Kristie: Yeah. In terms of the push for these institutions to have more plant-based options, I feel like it's more coming from within the industry because they're following trends. School food represents the biggest section of our sales, and it does tend to be a little behind other areas of both retail and food service, let's say with college and university or higher education really driving in terms of trends. But we have a lot of districts that are buying our products and that are putting them on the menus for all of their students and not just the vegetarian and vegan students, because that would be a very tiny group of customers that we are selling to. 

So, there's a district like Santa Ana Unified School District, which is doing a vegan Wednesday. So every Wednesday, everything on their menu is totally vegan at all of their schools, whether they're high schools or elementary schools, and they're routinely menuing our products for that. And it's really driven by the administration's desire to have more sustainable and healthy products on their menus. 

So, it really is coming from within the industry. And there are certainly some instances where students are asking for it or they're trying to serve that small percentage of students. But we really are trying to be and have found that we are a solution for school districts who are just looking for more sustainable and healthy products for their guests. And it could be from the food service director who's really passionate about it, or from the administration. 

Amy: Yeah, it's so great. And I feel like just the fact that they taste good and actually the students are liking them and requesting them, it makes such a difference. I think I definitely learned from the School Plates Program that it's a really tricky position because were asking them to provide plant-based. But then if the chefs don't know how to cook great plant-based food, then the students would try it and no one would have it. And then the schools were saying: ‘Oh, there just isn't the demand. Nobody wants it. We're putting it on the menu, but then the students don't eat it.’ And so then it's a waste. Or like you say, they're just catering for those two or three vegan kids in the school. So, the fact that they're looking at this at scale, it's about health. It's cost comparable. 

Yeah, I love that kind of multi-faceted approach of really making sure that it's a success from all of those different angles, including taste. 

Kristie: Absolutely, yeah. And what's really, I think, missing is sometimes the staff in school food understanding how to really talk about the product. So, we tend to work with the directors of Child Nutrition. So that's the person whose job is to administer the entire program, or a dietitian or a menu planner or somebody like that. But then if you're talking about a school district and we work at the district level, you tend to have dozens of people who are working in the kitchens, and those are the people who are actually interfacing with the students. And it's really hard for us to reach them, and we don't even try because there's just too many of them to talk to. 

But that was something that we would do at the Humane Society. We would do these trainings where we're teaching them how and why to have more plant-based options, because they're the ones who are interfacing with the students. And if students are like: ‘What is that?’ and the staff are like: ‘Oh, it's a veggie nugget.” and they don't make it sound good, then that's going to impact the perception. So that's a really big challenge for us. 

And something one of my colleagues was doing last week is that she was at a school district in Colorado where they got in front of the students, and this is something we do, but we obviously can't do it at every single school where we're operating. But they were doing student facing taste tests, and they have little voting boxes where it's like ‘yummy’ or ‘yucky’ or whatever. And she had so many students coming back and even wearing disguises so they could get another sample because they liked them so much, like going and putting on a sweatshirt or something like that. And this school district already has the product on its menus, but the kids just didn't even know. So, she's like: ‘What are you doing? You can get this tomorrow on your lunch menu. You don't have to come and sneak a sample.’

So that's another obstacle, too; just how do you both educate the staff who are serving the products and the students like: ‘Hey, you can eat this on your menu every single day, and it's really good.’ So those are things that we're trying to find solutions for ourselves. 

Amy: That's great. 

Kristie: Yeah, those kids are fun. I've done those tastings, too, where they just keep coming back and I'm like: ‘All right, you've had ten nuggets. That's like twice the typical serving size. So, I guess you like it.’ [Laughing]

Amy: [Laughing]

James: How many schools or school districts are you in? And I don't know how big a school district normally is so maybe kind of paint that picture of how many schools you're serving. 

Kristie: So we are in over 200 school districts now. Some of them could have 2000 students. And one of the largest school districts in the country that we're working with right now is Los Angeles Unified School District. It's the second biggest in the nation. And I know at one point they were doing 600,000 meals a day, but it's definitely dropped off because of the pandemic. Probably closer to like 200,000-300,000 lunches a day. They don't have our product on the menu every single day. They've got a cycle. They definitely serve a ton of students every single day. And I believe they have about 600 individual schools alone. 

So, when you talk about going out and doing that kind of education, even if I had an entire team, there's no way that we could get out in front of every single one of their schools.

We're estimating, based on the number of districts that we're working with, that our products are available to over 3 million students. Doesn't mean that 3 million students are eating it, but they have access to them on their menus. And so, we're on menus at over 200 school districts right now, which is just a dream come true. And, you know, if you think about it, in just a few short years, we've been able to generate that many customers and the product is selling great. We get fabulous feedback, as I'm sharing with you. But for me, as somebody who has devoted my life to this, even when we got the first customers, like, oh my God, I can't believe that our products are actually on school menus. This is what we hoped would happen, and now it's actually happening. So, it's a dream come true.

James: That's so amazing! Yeah, I think even being accessible to 3 million students seems like a huge. I mean, that's like 1% of the US population, I think, overall, and I don't know how many of the kids – I don't know how many kids are, but that sounds like an easy chunk, so that's an amazing achievement. 

Kristie: Thank you. And we're just getting started!

James: I'm actually quite curious on the cost angle, because we spoke about cost a little bit already. I worked on, like, a school food program in the UK, and I think they said, like, half of their decision criteria was cost of the product. So, I'm curious, are you kind of selling it under what it costs you, so they actually buy it, or is it cheap enough yet, or how is that process happening? Are you subsidising it through investor money, or – yeah, how does it all work? 

Kristie: Right. I mean, we are a venture funded company right now, so our money does come from investors, but we are selling it at a price that would allow us to be profitable if we weren't funding our technology development. So, we do look at the cost of goods sold and set the pricing such that we would make a small margin on the product. Obviously, investors, I think, would be excited for us to make a much larger margin. But our investors also know that we will, once our technology is deployed, be making a bigger margin. And at the end of the day, they also believe in our mission, which is to make plant-based meat affordable. So, to be able to sell our products to customers that may not be able to afford it otherwise is definitely something that they are on board with. 
We are going to be profitable once we're able to deploy our technology, or at least we have a pathway to profitability, maybe. 

James: Since we're on the technology question, I'm kind of curious to hear more about, I guess, Mock Two, I think, is what you're calling it, and the recent request proposal. So, I'm curious if you can tell us more about what Mock Two is and the plans for that. 

Kristie: Yeah. So, Mock Two is the name that we have given to our novel production equipment. So, for those of you who don't know that, we'll have this in the show notes, but it's spelled Mock Two. And this is the continuous production equipment that we've been working on. So, products like ours, or, say, Morningstar, others that have been in the market for a long time, can either be made through mix-in-form, which is typically a batch process, or extrusion. Extrusion makes good product, but it's also incredibly expensive; it's very energy intensive. 

Ours is made as a traditional dough-making process. So, what you would do with ingredients is you've got your dry ingredients and your wet ingredients, and you add your spices to the dry ingredients, you hydrate your protein, you emulsify it, and you mix it. 
So, typically in plant-based meat production, this is done in a batch process. So, you have large bats of dough where you're making this stuff, you're mixing it and then have to scrape it out. And there are humans who are doing this scraping it out, putting it through the next part of the process to shape it into a nugget, a patty, or a tender that goes through the rest of the process. So, each of these individual steps, the hydration, the emulsification, has to be done in a batch. So, the Mock Two is a fully continuous piece of equipment. And that means that we put the ingredients in one end, and then the dough comes out of the next end, and then it goes through the rest of the steps. 
In addition to it being so much better for the workers who aren't doing this backbreaking work of having to scrape down the pieces of equipment in which they're doing the production, they also don't have to be in a chilled environment because it's a completely contained piece of equipment. So typically, products like ours would have to be manufactured in an environment where it's cold. And so workers have to wear winter coats when they are in there making the products. As somebody who's cold all the time, I would think that would be a very unpleasant thing to do for eight hours a day while you're working. 

Also, it's got smaller footprints, like physical footprints. So, we could install multiple of these in a smaller facility so it takes up less room, and it's also more energy-efficient. 
So lots of benefits in terms of the price, even not having to spend as much money on energy to chill an entire factory. So, all around: cost savings and it’s better for the workers. 

And then, of course, being able to produce our product in a consistent manner. And that's another issue with plant-based meat production: often you'll find inconsistencies or little hunks of something here or there. But because it's going through this piece of equipment that was designed specifically for every part of the process, it allows for higher consistency and a better-quality product. 

And then in terms of what we're planning on doing with this technology, we are installing it in a manufacturing facility right now. We are in the testing phase of it. We'll be deploying it and then hopefully a little later this year, we'll be actually producing our product using the Mock Two. 

Amy: So, we're talking there then about some changes in the technology and making it as efficient as possible in that process. 

Do you anticipate any other changes coming into place, such as regulation in the future? I know were talking about the industry being on the defence of keeping their products really thriving. Also, competition: is there anyone kind of coming in with the same approach and also maybe buyer behaviour? 

Do you think there's key things you're thinking about at Rebellyous in those categories in terms of changes over the next few years. 

Kristie: In terms of regulatory, I think we will continue seeing things pop up that we have to address as an industry. There was recent legislation that was imposed in the state of Texas, no surprise there, requiring that plant-based meat be labelled for it so that it now calls out that it's plant-based or is made from plants. That doesn't affect us because we already had to label our products as plant-based. Everything that we make is plant-based. But our products for schools, we call Kickin’ Nuggets, Kickin’ Patties, Kickin’ Tenders. But because of regulatory issues at the federal level, it already says plant-based on it. So really, no big impact on us. 

I think there are companies that are trying to be a little more stealthy about it, but I don't think that it really deters anybody. It's just making clear what the product is actually made from or what it is that we're trying to do. 

Amy: That’s coming from Texas because that's a big agricultural state?

Kristie: It is a big agricultural state. They have a very big beef lobby and I think they tend to be kind of bullies on all of these issues. But really interestingly, of course, over the last decade or so, we've seen so many meat companies get involved in plant-based meat where Tyson or Cargill or other large meat companies see that there is a market opportunity here. So, it is really interesting to see both sides of this where instead of really trying to lean into it and generate more business through that, they're kind of still fighting, or at least trying to fight. And I expect that we'll see more of that popping up as well. 

While we're talking about plant based, of course, in terms of like cellular ag., we're definitely seeing movements even within school food. There's legislation that was introduced that would make it illegal to sell lab-grown meat or meat grown from cells into schools. So, I think that we will continue to see that kind of legislation that is fear-based instead of based in ‘How are we going to feed this exploding global population in the most sustainable way.’ So, I anticipate that we'll still see those kinds of challenges within our industries. 

Amy: I'm interested: when you talk about Tyson and Cargill, do you think there's any advantages to them as a huge business with a really household name bringing out these plant-based products without that kind of mission-led approach that you have? Do you think that, because they're just going to be focusing on bottom line bringing out a product that tastes good, there's actually a disadvantage then to being a more kind of mission-led organisation who's thinking about that full package and the end of factory farming? Whereas maybe that's not on the radar for Tyson; they're just looking at it from a purely profitable perspective. 

Kristie: I think that there are both advantages and disadvantages. So, I applaud it; I love to see any of these companies getting involved in the space. And if it is a way to demonstrate that they can be profitable and create products that are delicious and that are selling to their mainstream customers, then hopefully they will do more of that. At the same time, I feel like some of the products are not as good as others. They just kind of rush things out into the market and that does lead consumers to have a bad taste in their mouth, both literally and figuratively. 
And also, I think that if they do that and it fails and they pull out very quickly, then that indicates to the market or to investors that: ‘Oh, well, maybe this was just a phase or a fad and there really isn't a sustainable case to be made after all.’ 

So, I think if they can do it and they can do it really well, then it's a good thing for the industry. At the same time, most of these established companies already have what we don't have as start-ups, and that is distribution. That's one of the biggest hurdles that we face; having customers who like the product and who want to buy it, but they are either too small or for whatever reason, can't get it through their mainstream distribution channels. So, a Tyson or Cargill or any other large established companies have that advantage because they're already working in probably virtually every distributor, like large food service distributor in the country. 

James: I just kind of just googled ADM, which is another one of these big meat companies and it's crazy: the second thing that pops up actually is ‘ADM plant-based meat’. So, it's quite interesting that they are seemingly kind of investing in it, but kind of not. And I think, like you said, there's definitely advantages and disadvantages. And in a weird way, it's like even if they bring these bad markets to the marketplace and things fail, they kind of still do okay. Because if it fails and people go back to meat options, they feel okay; people buy their plant-based products, they're still doing okay. So, it's like this weird quagmire or – yeah, it's hard to know how to react with them. 

Amy: I reckon that's targeted for you there, James. [Laughing]

James: I wonder – well, to be fair, meat was still first. Meat was still first. 

What do you see as the key opportunities in the plant-based meat industry coming over the next few years? 

Kristie: One of the things that I do see is slowing down, and hopefully we'll see more organic, but sustainable adoption is just the buyer behaviour. I think it went crazy for a little bit there, and I still see plant-based meat as becoming ubiquitous on menus, whether it is restaurants or institutional. But I think that there was the big spike, and I think that we will see a slowdown to that. So, I think an opportunity really is to try, both as advocates and as a company, to help make this a more routine part of people's diets and an advocacy front. And I think that we did see a shift within animal advocacy to applaud people for progress and not perfection and go meat-free a few days a week, or do a vegan Wednesday or whatever it is, and just try these products when it makes sense for your diet. 

I think there's lots of opportunities within the food service space that Rebellyous is tackling, like in school food service. So, some of the reasons that we are addressing that market is because in the United States, there are about 30 million meals that are served to students every single day. There are usually one or two decision makers that are deciding what to put on those menus. So, it makes it a lower barrier to entry. 
If you're talking about working in the retail space, if I have an amazing product and it's in a small eight ounce package, I still have to persuade dozens of people to go out and buy that one tiny little package before I can even make near the same dent that I can make by getting one school district to buy a single case of our product. 

And then, of course, when you're working within that space, you're also helping introduce kids to plant-based food that's actually really good from the time that they're young. 

And so, I feel like that is a very big opportunity. There are definitely some other players in it, but it's not nearly as competitive as the retail space or in other food service channels. 

And then, of course, there's also the manufacturing technology side. So while we have this patented process and the patented equipment that we're working with, I do feel like there's opportunity for other players to come and see if they might be able to find similar or different solutions to price parity, because we definitely need to find ways to make these products more affordable for everyone. 

James: Why do you think it is that most companies focus on a direct-to-consumer approach rather than institutional food service if you think you actually might get much more leverage by convincing relatively few people?

Kristie: I think retail is sexy. You know, most investors are interested in being able to see their products at their local Whole Foods or their local Safeway. Of course, they're also interested in getting return on their investments, but most people just don't know anything about food service. It doesn't sound that interesting. 

And also, when you think about school food or institutional food, people tend to think that the quality must be pretty low. But what we found in working in the retail space is that marketing expenses are requirements. So, you have to have a budget to spend on either the placement of your product – at least in the United States, for a lot of retailers, you're required to pay for an expense to just get your product on the shelf in the first place. So, it's called a slotting fee. Some of them can be 50-100 dollars per skew per store. So, if you're going to be in 100 stores and you're spending $100 and you've got three product lines, like just think of how much money that's going to cost just to get on the shelf. And then your products on the shelf, you have to get customers to actually put it in their cart and buy it and then hopefully become repeat customers. And why would they pick up your product if they've never heard of it before when there's another product that they have heard of that's sitting right on the shelf beside it? So, it's prohibitive for a company that doesn't have a very large marketing budget to be able to really succeed there. I think that most companies see retail as being the way that you get it in front of consumers. We feel like getting your product in front of consumers, even if it's white-labelled and nobody knows what the brand is behind it. And having a really good product that at least the end-users are routinely purchasing and are proud of and excited to work with, is more important than that. 

And there may be a day when we decide we're going to really dive back into retail, but we want to just have the proof of concept of the Mock Two behind us, get our product to price parity, and then we may be able to have something that is affordable to those individuals who are buying products in the grocery store. 

James: Being able to reach many more people with relatively small effort and not marketing, I think it seems like a really key point. And I think something that I know your former team at HSUS are responsible for, and others, are these kind of the slurry of university catering commitments in terms of having high portions of plant-based foods served university campuses. So, it seems like there's lots of demand from the institutional food service side, and this is almost like guaranteed. But these people have made commitments. Like you said, the industry kind of wants to move in this direction. So that seems like really positive. So, yeah, I'm also surprised that more people aren't going in this direction. And do you reckon you'll ever work with the university food campus providers or are you already doing that? 

Kristie: Yeah, we're doing some of that. It's been less lucrative for us or less successful because that area is a lot more crowded. I think that people see universities – obviously, college students tend to be more experimental and looking to eat more plant-based foods. And so, you know, all of our competition is diving into that space. We're doing some of it. We're on menus at a handful of higher-ed institutions. You see Berkeley, you see Riverside, Southern Oregon University, a handful of others, and we anticipate doing more of that business as well. But it is just a little more of a crowded space for us, and it's exciting to see universities continue to innovate in this space. And obviously the demand is there with their customers. 
But similar to any other space, they need to have affordable product in order to be able to make it on their everyday menus. So, in university dining, there's either what they call the retail setting or the all-you-care-to-eat or residential-dining programs. All-you-care-to-eat dining is typically for people who live on campus and are required to purchase a meal plan. You can also purchase a meal plan and not be required to if you just love what's served in the dining hall or it's just more convenient. But typically, freshmen on campuses are required to buy a meal plan and they go to the cafeteria, and they can pile their plate with 14 pounds of plant-based chicken tenders and salad or whatever else. And they're paying one price for one meal, whereas in the retail setting they go and they're like, I want the Rebellyous tenders and some fries, and that's $8,99 or whatever it is. 

So, we would love to be in the all-you-care-to-eat part because that's where you're going to get the most business. But most of the plant-based meats are so expensive that they can't afford to have students taking 14 pounds of plant-based tenders because it would drive their cost way up. And so, it tends to be a lot more on the retail side, where there's a little less volume there, but it's still an important and exciting place to be and hopefully our prices will be able to come down and we'll have that all-you-care-to-eat setting soon. 

Amy: I really love this kind of cross section for you. Having worked with the institutions and from HSUS for so long and then now moving into the product space, you obviously have this wealth of experience and clearly that's what's driven you to go on this journey through the institutional side. Do you think from your perspective that there are other areas that nobody else is tackling? Maybe from your experience in HSUS you found this particular gap that Rebellyous Foods can fill. Are there other areas that you think are just missing – that really innovative product or approach right now? 

Kristie: Oh boy. Yeah, there's so many things. First of all, I mean, I am so thrilled to be where I am now and to have had the experience and the connections that I made at the Humane Society. I feel like this transition was really born of necessity. I loved the work that I was doing there. I loved my team, but I also felt like somebody needed to build a company like Rebellyous, and that somebody ended up being Christie Lagally and me and now the amazing team that we have.

In terms of what other gaps, you know, in start-ups I see so many opportunities. Distribution is a huge hurdle for start-ups. We get out and sample our product at a million places. People love it, but if you don't have a distributor that's willing to pick you up. And often it's kind of a chicken and egg situation where the customer likes it, the distributor likes it, but they want somebody to make the commitment in order to get that agreement going. And we've done well in that space, but there's still a lot of places where we don't have the distribution. So, I would love to see somebody coming up with novel approaches to distribution. 

Also brokerage: so, as a small company, we can only afford to have so many employees working for us in different parts of the country. So, a lot of companies tend to rely on brokers. And I would love to see people who are brokers or brokerages that specialise in plant-based meat that really dominate the market. There are a bunch of them out there. We have wonderful regional brokers in a handful of markets, but a lot of the large national ones are people who I'm sure are good at what they do and are connected but are not necessarily like heart-led or doing it because they really believe in the product. And I think if you don't believe in what you're doing, you're going to have a harder time selling it than if you actually go out there and every day you're thrilled and excited about what you're selling. And what's their job? The broker, they are essentially an extension of your sales team, so they get out and represent your products to customers. So, for our school food brokers, they go out, talk to customers at school districts with our products. But they also have all kinds of other products in their portfolio. So, they're not just representing us. They wouldn't represent a competitive brand. So, for example, they wouldn't represent another company that has a plant-based chicken, but they would represent a company that does a plant-based crumble or animal-based bacon or something like that. So, they're not necessarily allegiant right now to plant-based products. You're just one of multiple items in their portfolio. And we've had great experiences with ours, but it would be great if we had larger, more national partners and especially those who are super excited about the plant-based space or work exclusively in the plant based space. 

James: There's some good top tips for potential start-up founders. So, to anyone listening, this is the gold mine, probably. Is there anything else that comes to mind? 

Kristie: I mean, continuing to see innovation of really good products in the space, obviously. Maybe not obviously, but at Rebellyous we focus on chicken because that is the largest number of animals who are affected, or land animals who are affected in animal agriculture. And we've seen a number of plant-based or cellular seafood companies popping up, and I think we need to see additional innovation there. I've never been a real big fish or seafood person, but there are so many animals who are affected both deliberately or just caught up in the system. And I would love to see additional innovation happening in that space that come out with really good products to displace some of the animal agriculture and the seafood industry in general. 

Amy: Yeah, I'm sure many of our listeners will be pleased with that interjection as well. Obviously, as you say, so many individual lives affected when it comes to those particular markets of seafood. So, any products that you know of that are close to having that kind of level of distribution for the school network, the institution network? 

Kristie: For schools, I don't know of a single plant-based seafood company that is either targeting that market or feel like ready for it. In US schools, we have to meet certain nutritional requirements as well. And I think that's something that would be important for anybody who is interested in getting involved in the space or is already in the space and looking to sell into that market. You have to meet certain nutrition requirements in order to allow for schools to get credit from the USDA for serving those meals. And one of the biggest issues is finding the right protein that would allow for the product to qualify for meat alternative. 

So, yeah, I don't know of any plant-based seafood companies that would really be ready to get into that space. Maybe there are some out there working in the South or some that I just don't know of.

And I would also, you know – caution; making sure that the products are likable by kids too, because they have very different palates sometimes than we do. 

James: Fish fingers at least. I don't know if you call them fish fingers in the US, but that kind of like breaded product, probably not too different to what Rebellyous is making. So, it's like, it seems possible. 

Kristie: Yeah, slightly different flavour profile, mostly the same process. Been a long time since I've eaten fish, but I think you'd need kind of a flakier type of protein than what we currently have. But I imagine it's pretty doable. 

Amy: So, we've spoken a little about your work at the Humane Society US and being managing director of the Farmed Animal Protection Program there. Huge programme, working with a big team and then transitioning across into Rebellyous. You spoke a little bit about that transition and really wanting to fill that gap in the market for a product like what Rebellyous Roods provides. Was there any other kind of defining moments that inspired that career change? And would you ever move back into the non-profit space in the future, do you think? 

Kristie: I love what I'm doing at Rebellyous, and hopefully we'll continue to see success here. At the same time, I know that the environment for start-ups changes all the time. Maybe we go public, or maybe we're bought by somebody, and I anticipate sticking around until I don't have to or until I can't. And hopefully that won't happen.

But yeah, I would certainly be open to other careers in animal protection as well as finding a good fit in the for-profit or commercial space. I think it would just be a matter of where I can contribute the most. And I think that's what uniquely suited me for this role because the target market was going to be institutional food service provision, and that's what I had spent the last ten years working on. 
I think that if there's an opportunity for me to bring my knowledge, my experience, and my connections to another plant-based or other alternative meat company, then I would be open to that in the future. But if not, then I've been an activist since I was in college and would certainly look to return to the non-profit space if it made more sense to do that. And if I felt like I could contribute more there than I could in working in alternative meat, absolutely. 

Amy: I can't imagine anyone trying to infiltrate this market without that prior knowledge that you've had, like you're saying, ten years at Humane Society, understanding even the supply chains, and how that all actually goes from creating the product to being distributed to the schools, actually providing the product and the importance of the taste. And I think a product like Rebellyous Foods could have quite easily dived; just not having all of that prior knowledge and understanding of how that system even works. 

It's kind of similar to working in the welfare space, right? Asking for cage-free commitments, but not understanding the supply chain, not understanding who are the decision makers; who are the ones who can actually implement; is it even possible; is it important that it tastes good; or do the schools just kind of throw it out there and leave it up to the students? 

So, I think that knowledge that you gained from that work must have just been so integral to the success of Rebellyous so far. 

Kristie: I feel incredibly fortunate to have been able to work in the space and did have to learn a lot after moving from non-profits into a start-up. And I have a lot I can still learn, I'm sure. But I would also say the connections that I made and meeting people who advise or mentor me or who can just answer questions has been tremendous. And that's one of the things that I absolutely love about working with school food; the people who are in that industry are incredibly passionate primarily about feeding kids, but they also are non-competitive; they help each other; they help their manufacturing partners, like me. In fact, just last week, we're thinking about our next product for that market. And so, we reached out to a handful of people like: ‘Hey, here's some things that we have questions about. Can you get back to me and let me know what you think?’ And would you do this version or this version? And within minutes, just get flooded with responses, and people are like, oh, my God, thank you. I can't wait to try this product. So, it's just such a wonderful, helpful environment. People who I now consider my friends, not just customers, think that having built those relationships even prior to joining this company has been incredibly helpful to our success. 

Amy: You alluded to some big kind of learnings from that non-profit into the profit sector. Can you comment on any of those that particularly stand out? 

Kristie: Yeah, I mean, I would honestly say, I feel like I keep coming back to this distribution. I think in some ways it's been a challenge, but at the same time it's been a great learning opportunity for us to see what the requirements are and also just how to tackle things one market at a time. So, of course you want to spread or cast a wide net and at the same time just realise that's not a very animal friendly term, but also you have to be able to just drill down one particular market. So just trying to get a lot of customers who you can then go to your distributor and say: ‘Oh, actually now we have 20 customers who represent this much volume that we would bring to you if you would just bring our product in.’ So that's been one of the things. 
Also, I'm not doing a lot of this myself, but even working with investors and trying to learn and uncover what are the most important key performance indicators that show them that we're on a pathway to success. There's something to learn every single day and I'm very fortunate to be able to be doing that. 

James: Previously you mentioned these potential kind of more novel and innovative distribution methods that could be interesting. I guess, what are those that come to your mind if there are any. Because, I guess for me, all I think of is like retailers in supermarkets, this food service, we talk about a few different kinds of food service, whether that's school foods, universities, so on and so forth. Is there other stuff you have in mind in terms of distribution? 

Kristie: I don't have any of the ideas for how to make it better, but what I can tell you is that for start-ups it is incredibly challenging because they are pretty established. And I will share one example. We have some pretty large potential customers that want our product. Product is frozen, so that makes storage and freight a little bit prohibitive. If the distributor is already stocking a competitive product, then they tend to look at it as well. We already have a plant-based chicken nugget. Why would we bring in your product even if we have a big customer that's saying we like this product and not that one? So, it is up to us to then aggregate even more customers who want our product in order for them to make space in their warehouse. 
So that, I think, is a potential opportunity for solving a problem. And maybe that is less of a storage and more of a direct-to-consumer or direct-to-B-2B type of consumer conveyance issue. But most end users or operators don't want to be working with a whole bunch of different customers. So, while we do, and we can sell direct, they would rather not have to send invoice or pay invoices from a whole bunch of different people. So, they would prefer to go through distribution.
So I don't really have the answer to it, but what I can tell you is it can be a big obstacle or there may be places that operate with smaller volume, like a hospital, or even a small school district where they don't have a ton of storage space, they don't have a lot of freezer space, so they can only bring in a few cases at a time. And your distributor is like: ‘Well, they're only going to be moving through a certain number of cases, so we can't justify clearing out a specific slot in our warehouse to cater to somebody that's only going to be going through a handful of cases a week or something like that.’ 

So, it does present issues in us being able to build business in certain areas where it might be a little slower to actually burn through those cases. I feel like there's an opportunity there to solve a problem. I just don't know how to do it myself, but definitely open to any thoughts, and if you have listeners who are interested in diving into that, I could definitely share a lot of some of the obstacles that we've encountered. 

James: I guess the start-up world, from what I've heard, is unblocking problems all the time. So, yeah, I can imagine that's just like very normal for you now. 

Kristie: Oh, yeah. I mean, new challenges that arise all the time that you would never have expected if you hadn't just been in the trenches.

Amy
You describe yourself as a product company, and we've heard a lot about that and how you're really laser-focused on that product as being that key unique selling point of your product versus a company that focuses more on their brand and invests a lot into marketing and really targeting that consumer. Do you think that's had an impact on the success of Rebellyous to this point, where you just really have had that real key focus on the product itself and less about the kind of busyness and the noise of pushing that out to market for general consumers? 

Kristie: One of our key mottos is success requires focus. And we do hear a lot of requests from customers who are like: ‘Oh, do you make a vegan chicken or a vegan sausage or vegan burger or something like that?’ And we feel like there is so much other competition out there in the space that are doing that and that are doing that well that we don't really need to get involved in that. And to your point, that if we just focus on the things that we do really well, then maybe we can grow and produce additional skews later. But at the moment, we wanted to really focus on having a great product. And personally, I would not represent it if I didn't think that it was fantastic, because I want to make sure that we're putting our best foot forward. 
So, throughout the product development process, I was given my honest, gentle feedback if I thought that it had some opportunity for improvement. One of the key challenges, and I think opportunities for improvement in plant-based chicken is breading adhesion, which may sound like super in the weeds there. 

Amy: In the weeds. [laughing]

Kristie: Yeah. But the breading – if you've eaten plant-based chicken over the years, you may have just become accustomed to this – but sometimes it just falls right off. So, you'll have your protein and then the breading take a bite off of it, and you'll see, like, little air pockets or the breading just kind of pulls right off of it, or even when you're baking it. And obviously, that's not good for the cooking or enjoyment experience. And so that was something that we really dialled down on so that the breading, like, you cannot pull it off. And we're not doing anything fancy there, it's just like how we develop the product so that it adheres really well, and that makes it such that if somebody wants to do something more than just serve it with some dipping sauce, they can actually cook with it and make like, a teriyaki chicken orange chicken or something like that, and the breading stays intact. And I feel like if we had just rushed some product out into the market, then we wouldn't have been able to do that deep dive. And we get really good feedback from people on that. 

And then in addition to focusing on the product in terms of the overall mission of the company, if we were really focusing on brand and just spending a ton of money on marketing, we wouldn't have had the funds to build out the Mock Two and that's really what we feel like is the important part of what we're doing. Not that selling our product to schools isn't important, but to be able to actually deploy that technology and make plant-based meat affordable, we wouldn't have been able to do that if we had spent our money on marketing instead. 

Amy: Yeah, I really admire that approach. I feel like, especially when you're mission led – we're all here because we want to see the end of factory farming – it could be so tempting to just try and do everything. You know, we want to provide all the products and I feel like we would even be suggesting, you know, like: ‘Oh, well, it's not so different from a fish finger. Why don't you branch into that and you could just provide that, Kristie, get going.’ 

So, yeah, I feel like I really admire that sense of, like: ‘No, we need to get this right and get this really right in the right market, in the hands of the right people, and then sure, in the future, potentially expand, but really laser-focus on not failing at this point.’ Like, really making a success of those three products that you have on offer and making sure that lasts and is sustainable in that long term. 

Kristie: Right. And I think it's important for so many reasons. And I have to say, Kristie, our CEO and founder has done a tremendous job of just ensuring that we're being really financially savvy. It's important not just for the success of our company, but really for the industry as a whole, because as investors see companies fail, it really does impact the entire industry and the opportunities for fundraising moving forward, right? So, I think it just demonstrates that we can be sustainable, but we have to be really smart about how we're spending our money. 

James: Do you see any pressure from investors to get products out to the market and be on the road to being profitable versus actually developing a really good product, which is often more capital-intensive and takes time? I guess, do you notice that kind of pressure from investors, or do you really kind of pick investors that believe in your mission, are willing to invest or, yeah…How does that kind of work for Rebellyous? 

Kristie: Yeah, I mean, it's been really important for us to find investors who believe in the bigger picture of what we're doing. We certainly have talked to a lot of folks over the years who say they get us, but then are really focused on: ‘Why don't I see your product at my local Whole Foods?’ And we have to go back and be like: ‘That's not what we're trying to do.’ When you're talking to investors, it's much like dating. We want to make sure that we're a good fit for them just as much as they're a good fit for us, and that they don't have wrong expectations, or we won't end up working together and then being led down a path that really isn't in line with what we intend to do. 
And so I think we've been really careful over the years to ensure that we do have that alignment, especially with our larger lead investors; that they really believe in the technology and they realize it may take some time to get there, but we will show benchmarks along the way to demonstrate our progress while at the same time bringing in revenue. That may not be like the crazy peaks that they're looking for, but that is sustainable, and we can continue to grow organically and sustainably. 

James: Thank you so much, Kristie. This has been an amazing kind of deep dive, both into Rebellyous Foods and, I guess, the challenges and opportunities for the plant-based meat industry more broadly. Yeah, I think I've definitely learned a lot. So, thank you for that!

Kristie: Thanks. It's been a lot of fun!

James: We have some closing questions we like to kind of leave every episode with. And the first one is, what's a bit of news that you're grateful to hear or excited about recently? 

Kristie
Well, I was really excited, having come from the Humane Society and working in animal advocacy, to hear that McDonald's just announced that it's now 100% cage-free in the United States. And that was a hard-fought victory that I had worked with my colleagues on. I definitely was not nearly as involved in that as some of my other colleagues. But it marks one of the biggest food companies in the world now meeting its goal of 100% cage-free eggs. And they actually did it two years ahead of its original timeline. 

And I would expect that most of your listeners probably are aware of why that's important. Just to provide a little bit of context. Most egg-laying hens, at least in the United States, had previously been confined in cages that were so small that they can't even fully extend their wings and are deprived of virtually anything that's natural and important to them, like the ability to perch or lay eggs in a private nesting spot. So, moving toward cage-free is not perfection, but it is good progress in ensuring that these animals, in the very least, will be able to flap their wings and live a semblance of a life where they get to choose where to spend their time and lay their eggs in a private nesting box. Super excited to hear that McDonald's is actually doing it; that they're now sourcing the eggs from those cage-free providers. And hopefully we'll see more in the industry moving in that direction ahead of their timelines. 

Amy: Yeah, definitely. I saw that update. It's great! So good to be such a major player as well, right? Just leading that by example. 

Kristie: Right, I mean because as McDonald's goes, the rest of the industry is going to go. They have such a command on the supply chain, so it only makes sense for their suppliers to move in that direction. 

Amy: And do you have any recommendations? Any books or blog posts, podcasts, anything that's really led your thinking in your prior non-profit work or also that transition into the business space. 

Kristie: A couple of podcasts that I appreciate on the food industry is Business for Good (well, that's not just about food, but it is start-ups, people doing interesting things for betterment of society); it's podcasts from my friend Paul Shapiro - always has lots of interesting guests on. 

Also, when I started working in the food industry and in particular retail (but I think it's helpful for people who are both in retail or food service) is Food Biz Wiz. So, if you have folks who are either already entrepreneurs or aspiring entrepreneurs and are looking for ways to gain distribution or just simply learn more about working with wholesale customers: Food Biz Wiz, which is founded by Alli Ball and she's a former grocery buyer so she knows a lot about what it takes to get in front of people who are buying food. And she also has a course called Retail Ready, which I found really helpful because I knew absolutely nothing about retail when we made the pivot into retail. So, it was really helpful just to even understand some basic terms and expectations for retail buyers. 

James: How can people learn more about your work or follow your work, and where can they find you? Obviously, we know it's not in whole foods, so most listeners probably can't find you that easily. But, yeah, how can people follow Rebellyous Foods going forward? 

Kristie: Our website, Rebellyous.com, and our hashtag, or everywhere is at Rebellyous. And that's r e b e l l y o u s. So, we got the little belly in the middle for the comfort food. [Laughing]

James: I didn't realise that. It's good. 

Kristie: Thank you. And we do have a couple of positions open right now. We're hiring for a food scientist, and we also have a couple of engineering positions open. So, if anybody would be interested in those, then please just go to our website, and you can find the job postings there. 

And lastly, I guess if you want to enjoy our products, we do have a number of retail locations in the Pacific Northwest still, in Southern California, and you could go have lunch with your kiddo if you're on school menus. And if we're not, then if you live in the States and are interested in getting our products on menus at local hospital college, your kids school, reach out and we would be glad to work with you on that. 

Amy: How many do you reckon you've consumed over the short time you've been with Rebellyous Foods? 

Kristie: Not enough. I tend to stand there, and I don't want any to go to waste. So, we put out our best product. And as they start cooling off, I'm like: ‘I'm just going to go over here and eat a few.’ [Laughing] So it depends. When I'm home, not as many. But it shows – it tends to be ten or so servings. I go through enough, but they're delicious and definitely highly recommend and it's not a hardship for me to enjoy them. 

Amy: Yeah, nice!

James: I think that sounds like a pretty lucky job. I'm quite jealous. Sounds better than what I do. [Laughing]

Anyway, Kristie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and I appreciate you chatting to us. And yeah, thanks again for sharing so much!

Amy: It was a lot of fun!

Kristie: Yeah, thank you so much and thanks for the important work that you both are doing.