How I Learned to Love Shrimp
How I Learned To Love Shrimp is a podcast showcasing innovative and impactful ways to help animals and build the animal advocacy movement.
We talk to experts about a variety of topics: animal rights, animal welfare, alternative proteins, the future of food, and much more. Whether it's political change, protest, technological innovation or grassroots campaigns, we aim to cover it all with deep dives we release every two weeks.
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How I Learned to Love Shrimp
Aarti Bhavana on mental health and keeping companies accountable to their commitments
This episode discusses the intersection of mental health and animal advocacy, highlighting the critical need for self-care among advocates. Aarti Bhavana shares her experiences with emotional tolls from animal suffering, corporate accountability, and practical strategies for sustaining passion in the long term.
• Exploring the toxic mindset of 100% dedication in animal advocacy
• Importance of addressing mental health in nonprofit sectors
• Underlying emotions of advocates witnessing animal suffering
• The role and growth of corporate accountability in animal welfare
• Practical self-care strategies and boundaries for advocates
• Insights into shifting perspectives on animal welfare legislation
Resources;
- Bharat Initiative for Accountability
- Marconi Union - Weightless
- Cupa Larrc Instagram
- Our world in data – amount of suffering for cage-free based on welfare footprint
- Jayasimha Podcast Episode - Cage-free credits
- Heads Up - Creative campaigns newsletter
If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - we would really appreciate it! Likewise, feel free to share it with anyone who you think might enjoy it. You can send us feedback and guest recommendations via Twitter or email us at hello@howilearnedtoloveshrimp.com. Enjoy!
The slightly toxic attitude that may come in the nonprofit space, which is that if you're not devoting yourself 100% to the cause 100% of the time and you're taking even a moment to do something else, then you are not really motivated, you really don't care about the space. I think those kinds of attitudes are incredibly harmful and stigma, both externally as well as the internalized kind, that until you're able to be able to talk about it, learn read more, go to therapy, understand yourself better, until you're able to, I think, cross those barriers, I think it's going to be a little bit of a challenge.
Amy:Hi, my name is Amy.
James:And my name is James.
Amy:And this is how I Learned to Love Schwimm, a podcast about promising ways to help animals and build the animal advocacy movement.
James:This week we spoke with Arati Bhavana, who runs Bharat Initiative for Accountability, a coalition of 16 animal welfare organizations working to ensure Indian companies meet their cage-free commitments on time. We had a wide range of discussion on whether animal advocacy organizations are getting the balance right on mental health issues, the importance of keeping companies accountable for their animal welfare policies and also why you should tie up your bright blue hair if you go to meet politicians. Hope you enjoy. Hey everyone. Aarti Bhavana is the Director of Corporate Engagement at Bharat Initiative for Accountability. For the past two years she's been working on corporate cage-free accountability in India, which before she worked on public policy for animal welfare. Welcome, aarti.
Aarti:Thanks so much for having me here.
James:Thanks for joining, as we like to start all podcasts. What is something you changed your mind on recently and why?
Aarti:When I began working in animal welfare, I could not quite understand why anyone would want to dedicate their time to cage-free. Why on earth would you try to advocate for and try to grow a sector which doesn't already exist? I mean, shouldn't we be asking for hens to just not be exploited at all and for the egg industry to be shut down and many other very utopian ideals?
Aarti:I suppose it's while speaking to a lot of people a few years into it, visiting poultry facilities and kind of just understanding the scale at which things operate and the vastness of the problem, that we do need to be practical and realistic in terms of what we can achieve while at the same time working towards the long-term goal of a future where animals aren't exploited at all. But I think if we just start off with that being the only thing, the only thing that's, you know in our minds, then there's going to be I think that's a really really long process and that's not something that we're probably going to see in our lifetime at all. So that was very interesting and how. Now I find it very amusing when I'm on the receiving end of the same question about but why cage free? Why not just ending the egg industry?
James:right well, can you say a bit more about that? What was it a visit to a farm that helped you change your mind? Or what was it that you saw or learned that really influenced you on this?
Aarti:I think just slowly recognizing it wasn't just for poultry, but it was through, I could say, maybe during the fellowship that I was doing.
Aarti:So this is called the Ahimsa Fellowship, which is kind of my proper introduction into the space as a full-time activist, and during that it was a great 10-month fellowship where we were taken through all aspects of animal exploitation in the country, understanding it from a theoretical point of view as well as going out into the field and seeing the practical issues. So part of it was visiting horrible dairies, meat shops, pet shops, breeding centers. You know just a whole lot of things and I guess, kind of seeing through there, that when you understand the vastness of just how many animals are involved, it's quite cynical to a lot of times. Think of it as the animals that you're seeing, the ones that you are documenting abuse, who are being abused, are the ones that are what we refer to as the sacrificial lot. We're not going to be able to help them, but we're just hoping that what we can do will help the next lot that comes in or the one after that.
Aarti:So I think that required a little bit of toughening up to accept completely because I think people who enter into the space usually do because of how much they care about the issue, whether it's just from how much they love animals or just from an ethical lens, it's usually one or the other. But when you then have to accept that, okay, I'm going to be viewing immense amounts of cruelty, I'm just going to be documenting it for now, but I'm not going to be rescuing them. I'm not going to be helping them, but I'm not going to be rescuing them. I'm not going to be helping them. But also, you know, kind of it helped me understand that you need to take a more long-term lens as far as this is concerned. You cannot just shut everything down right now. You cannot, you know, end factory farming in our lifetime, but that does not mean that you can't help improve things even a little bit. I think, just seeing how awful the suffering truly is, because there's one thing to see it in some pictures, maybe it's one thing to know of it.
Aarti:It's another thing to be there to witness it, to hear it and, most importantly, I think, to smell it, because those are things that can't quite prepare you until you're right there, but once you're there then you kind of understand that, ok, any little bit that you can do to help their everyday lives will really, you know, make a massive improvement.
Aarti:And something that really helped me after I started working, you know, even in BIA, was that our world and data statistic that just talks about how the housing of a hen vastly changes the amount of suffering that they undergo on a daily basis. So you know, in terms of that they undergo on a daily basis. So you know, in terms of disabling pain, horrific pain, so the three different levels and the percentage reduction in pain is massive. So that's kind of something that I think even my team also keeps looking back on. If we ever feel like you know, if we ever just need a little boost in terms of inspiration also, because this work can be so slow and you're not going to see a change, you know, on a day-to-day, week-to-week, even month-to-month basis. So this kind of helps yeah, for sure.
Amy:I think from that practical lens, like you say, of knowing that it is the long game, and I guess as well from your policy background, that's quite normal right that you're not seeing, especially working in policy, you're not seeing instant change. You may be working on policy change that is going to be implemented in years and years time and then maybe even the impacts from that policy change being implemented aren't going to be seen for the next decade. So yeah, maybe there's some sort of practical alignment there with your background in policy as well.
Aarti:Absolutely, and with law also, I think, because of the way the court systems work, the way even policy works, public policy it just takes so long for even you know the court mechanisms to work, so you kind of you start realizing that this is there everywhere when you talk, whether you talk about private policy in the corporate space, whether you're talking about public policy in a non-animal space, in an animal space, no matter what. I think you do need to adjust your lens in that sense, because if you're just looking for that instant win, you're going to be incredibly demotivated.
Amy:Well, we'll get onto your policy work and the Baha'at Initiative for Accountability later, but the topic we want to talk to you about first and you've alluded to some of it, I guess already is something you're really passionate about, and that's the mental health of advocates. So I guess you've talked about visiting some really horrific production, I guess, places and how maybe that's had an impact on you. So can you start by just giving us an overview of why you think it's important to talk about this when working in our movement?
Aarti:I think that we cannot discount the emotional toll it can take, especially when you are witnessing animal suffering on a daily basis, particularly since you're more sensitive to the suffering that the animal undergoes. We can understand their body language a lot more. You probably can communicate with them a lot more than maybe just someone who's not working in the space or who hasn't had as much exposure to these animals. So you're sensitive to every little bit. If you're talking for a short-term period, you want someone to just work on something for one tiny project, sure, ignore your mental health, work-life balance, just keep your eye on the ball and like that's, that's it. But I think, if you're looking to grow the movement, if you want people to stay in it for the long term, it's the cup theory, which is just that you can't pour from an empty cup.
James:So you have to make sure that you do take care of yourself so that you can, you know, devote your best efforts towards the cause how have you done this in practice, like through the I guess intensity of the work or through the kind of challenging situations that you've seen, like? Is there anything you've applied that has been quite useful for you?
Aarti:Yes, I try to make sure that I do have some time where I am like very consciously not thinking about work. When I had first started out, I was finding it incredibly difficult because, no matter where you go, because of how pervasive animal exploitation is, no matter where you go, you just see something If you're out on the streets maybe we have these, you know straight meat shops or you see the dogs on the street.
Aarti:You are trying to think about those issues, about the mass culling issues, about the animal birth control. You go out to eat, you look at a menu, you think about all of those things and I mean you go out to shop. It's you know, in every aspect of that and I realized it was starting to get incredibly overwhelming and there's that feeling of guilt also of really not being able to do anything towards the vastness of the exploitation that you see. So I think it had to be a very, very conscious decision of creating a barrier that, yes, you acknowledge all of this, but you're also like you see all of it, but you're being a little bit more careful in terms of how much you let that affect you. I also realized that you know it's so easy to just get caught up and make your work your entire personality that if anyone wants to talk about anything, you can only talk about animals and the welfare space, and it really depends on who you are and how you work. But I do feel like that is incredibly limiting in terms of your growth as well as a person, as an advocate in the movement. So it's important to have hobbies that you do or other activities that you do that have nothing to do with this or that just recharge you in some way.
Aarti:Something that I love to do and what I did even before I started the movement, was just volunteering at shelters.
Aarti:And, of course, when I first you know when I started uh, when I entered the movement through the fellowship and then through my full-time work it was difficult while even being around those animals because you know they're all the rescues.
Aarti:But after a while it was, it was incredibly enriching to see that, hey, here are happy animals like helped to recharge me in, if nothing else, that if all you're seeing is just suffering animals, it's great that if once a week, you can be around animals that are at peace and that are happy and you can, you know, just spend time with them in that sense. So I found that very helpful and also just making sure that in communications, when talking to people, your friends, your family, you're not just, you don't just have tunnel vision, and it's not just about this issue. You don't need to talk about other things. Read other things, watch films, tv, read books that have nothing to do with this at least that's how I work where, if this were all I was thinking about all day long, if I had no work-life balance or anything, I mean I could do that for a short period, but I would burn out and I know that's not going to help anyone. I mean, if you don't do it.
Aarti:After a while, you'll start resenting the work, and that's the last thing that any of us would want yeah, of, of course, and you talk about burnout there.
Amy:We speak a lot about that in this space. I think many advocates getting burnt out, as you say, from just kind of fatigue, of witnessing all of this suffering. What do you think are some main kind of contributors to this and do you have any advice on how to avoid it?
Aarti:Sure, I think this is something that my supervisor had told me when I just started out in the movement, which was when I was starting to feel a little overwhelmed, and she just took me aside once and just said look, I'm going to tell you this as a colleague and as just someone who cares that you need to learn to say no. You need to understand your own limitations. Figure out how much you can do and learn to say no. You need to understand your own limitations, figure out how much you can do and learn to say no. And just to have a superior say that to you is incredible. I mean, that's something I realized I think about so often in terms of I'd much rather, you know, be able to do every things that are on my plate to the best of my ability than to just, you know, give a little bit to a ton of things and not do them well. That kind of connects to, I think, the people who you work with, particularly your superiors. They really need to.
Aarti:You know just the organizational culture that is created. It's so easy in these social spaces, social justice spaces, to downplay the human aspect of it, of the people who are working in it, and almost guilt them sometimes to just be like, but you know so many animals are suffering. Is whatever you're going through right now that much more important? And I mean there is no way you can actually answer that, to say yes, because if you're saying you know animals are being tortured and killed, do you really need to take a day off, for instance? And it'll be very difficult to be able to answer that, but I think that's very, very short-sighted and harmful in the long run. Yeah, I think that the workspace that is cultivated, how you interact with your team, like we are very particular. That you know, even if there are messages, say, for example, because we care about the space, we get random ideas at random points of time, at night or the weekends we might drop a message, but there's the understanding that, okay, unless specifically stated, you don't have to respond to anything outside of work hours or you don't need to. You know we're not expecting any of that.
Aarti:Yeah, so I think that's a huge thing, because I have seen people who are able to devote their entire lives to the cause and they wonder, you know, like they'll say, but what do I do over the weekend if I can't come to office? And that works for maybe a few months, maybe a year, but I have seen those people start to like you can almost see them shrinking, and that's awful, and at some point of time, you need to realize that again. Given how long it takes to effect change, you want to make sure that you can stick around to do that. Yeah, absolutely. It's very important to do that, and also understanding how you work, like what exactly is it that makes you tick? What are your needs? To make sure that you can give your best to a particular task and, once you do, then make sure that you are prioritizing that so that, yeah, no two people are the same, so you really need to make sure that you give yourself exactly what you need.
Amy:I think from a practical perspective, there's a couple of things I want to touch on there. So you were saying initially about saying no and turning things down. What does that mean to you in a practical sense of us being at work so obviously it is our job, we're like compensated to do these specific tasks. I can't turn up to work and say, no, I'm, I'm good today, I'm not gonna work on this, this topic. And then kind of the second point there that you were just making about finding what makes you tick.
Amy:I think where's that balance between what actually needs to be done and the thing that you find like most effective in your work? Like it doesn't necessarily make me tick to like email corporates to ask them to adopt a catering policy, but actually, if that's what needs to be done in my work, how do you manage those things? So, initially, kind of the no element. And then secondly, like picking and choosing the parts of your job that you want to do, when actually there's, you know, some really important tasks that just need to be completed in order for us to progress.
Aarti:I guess what I find useful is revisiting priorities at the start of every day, because the number of times things have changed. You can make your week plan and then things come up and it can really throw you off, because you know I planned on doing this on Tuesday, this on Wednesday, but suddenly this new thing has come up and now I really don't know what to focus on. So just prioritizing that regularly, being flexible enough and being able to adapt to those changes, because things do come up. You may suddenly have someone you know, like a company you've been trying to reach for months, suddenly wakes up and says that they want to talk to you and you now need to prep for that. So everything that, everything else you had an email campaign that you were working on that might need to pause. So that's what I kind of mean by also understanding to say no, which is you realize, and you kind of prioritize things accordingly. How can I figure out these deadlines in terms of priorities? And you keep revisiting that? Because it really threw me for a loop also initially, when the new things that kept coming up, and not just in this space, particularly, I think, in the public policy space, when you're trying to meet an official, for instance. You planned on meeting them today. The next day you planned on doing something else, a third day, something else, but you've gone there. You've spent the entire day in the office. They were not available. They were stuck in meetings. You weren't able to meet them, and now your entire week is thrown for a toss. Then, the next day, a particular government official has reached out saying they're willing to talk to you about something else or they need your help on something.
Aarti:If you're very rigid in terms of how you're structuring your day and your week, it can be quite difficult. So, yeah, learning to say no is also just understanding that. Okay, I know this is important, but is this more important than X, y, z? If not, then can someone else, can this be assigned to another person on the team? Or can this be pushed for just another few days until one task is off my plate so I can take on another? Yeah, I would say that would be the most important.
Aarti:And, yeah, and knowing how you tick is I guess that's more in terms of what you do in your non-workers as well, as well as your workers Like, are you someone who needs to break down a task into all the little components and have that written down and tick things off as you go. Are you someone who works more intuitively, that you just like to kind of, you know, jump into the task and, just you know, go with the flow, just figuring out what it is that you need and working accordingly? So I think, even having an organization that, or you know people who don't micromanage you, who are also just content with as long as you do the work by this particular deadline, however you do, it is up to you. Whether you do it all on the last day, whether you do it, you know, for a certain number of hours every day, that's up to you.
James:We're all adults, so you figure out whatever method works best for you I remember when we spoke to aaron ross and I guess he was talking about, actually, you know he finds himself somewhat obsessed, uh, you know, with this work because you know if for him actually the kind of this is whatizes him. I'm kind of speaking for him, but also this is kind of how I feel. Sometimes this can actually be the work that energizes you and it's very exciting. It's almost great to talk to people and like make progress on it. So in a way, I guess, like his view was, you know, for at least some set of people you know bad to be working like really intensely because you actually you know it's what drives you, it's what makes you really happy. And then I guess, do you feel that's true for like a very small subset of the population? Like, how does that kind of balance with your kind of views on you know having outside hobbies and not spending all your time on this and all that kind of stuff?
Aarti:There's been very, very few people who, at least in my experience, have come across, who truly don't feel like they need a break. They feel like you know and they're like, but yeah, you need a break or you burn out when you are doing something you don't care about. But if you care so much for this cause, then you don't feel that way and hey, that works for you, fantastic. I mean, I couldn't think of a better advocate for the animals because it makes you know someone who can give your absolute, 100%, 100% of their time. And if that, if that's what that's how you take, then fantastic and I almost envy you a little bit. But if it's not, then I think that trying to measure yourself to that standard is just a recipe for failure and you're going to constantly feel like an imposter, you're going to feel guilt and shame for not measuring up to that. So I think that kind of ties into understanding yourselves and knowing what your work style is and what you I think, just generally what your needs are as a person, and that's how we all structure our lives in terms of what we consider most important to ourselves. So I do think that having that certain amount of not just interest. I think passion in the work is incredibly important because, beyond anything, that's what drives you. That's something that you can keep tapping into if you ever are starting to feel a bit demotivated. And so to that extent, I absolutely get Aaron's point that you don't want people who I think you've never mentioned this briefly, that you don't want people who I think you never mentioned this briefly. You don't want people who just look at this as a career, necessarily with zero interest in or very, very little interest in the cause itself.
Aarti:For me personally, I can get like obsessed.
Aarti:It doesn't mean that over weekends I don't necessarily think about anything, but I realized that when I'm not thinking about the individual tasks in terms of, you know, work that needs to be done X, y, z tasks it gives you a little space to think about this, the issue and the problem on a broader level.
Aarti:And sometimes just by Sunday already, like you know, I find myself maybe noting down a couple of things or, you know, like certain ideas that strike you. Because I've been able to take a step back, I have been able to give myself some space, because otherwise you get, you know, you get drawn into the nitty gritties of the individual tasks and you kind of forget to look at it as a larger picture. Reading more about it is something that I am trying to incorporate as well, so to make sure that there's just so many resources. There's just so much incredible stuff to come across, and I think my to-read folders become like three full folders of bookmarks that I really am trying to get through. But yeah, it all boils down to the kind of person you are and what makes you tick.
Amy:I wonder if there's some correlation there, james, between how close to the issues you are as well like. Maybe that's set kind of far enough back that actually what Aaron's obsessed with is negotiation and communication and really focusing on those things. You know, say you were like an investigator or you're a campaigner and you're like very much in the action all the time. Maybe that's the differentiation here that there's like likely to be more burnout when you're dealing really face to face with the animals all the time.
James:Maybe that's the differentiation here that there's like likely to be more burnout when you're dealing really face to face with the animals all the time yeah, I mean, I definitely agree that if you're more investigation like investigator or visiting farms, I think that is a different ballgame and you should kind of treat yourself differently to everyone else. But yeah, I agree, I think, if you're, I think most people in the world uh have you know, office jobs, laptop jobs, whatever you want to call it where most of the time we're not directly exposed to this kind of stuff. And anyway, we spoke with Aaron about like is it actually good to like almost like cultivate some of this obsession? Yeah, maybe not with like the suffering of animals, but like with like your particular niche.
James:So, for Aaron. It's like corporate relations and maybe you, Amy, could be like you know, campaigns and like the digital marketing. It's like I guess maybe there you can actually be a bit more I don't know forceful yeah, it's less taxing yes, yeah, yeah so we spoke last week with Haven about you going to the farms in um in India.
Amy:How did you find actually being on the farm and witnessing that, when your day-to-day is like laptop job, as you were saying, dealing with funding applications, kind of very far removed from the animals themselves? Was that like a different experience for you?
James:yeah, I mean I actually wanted to go because I thought it'd be useful. I mean it was. We also visited in Vietnam like a cage tent facility. Yeah, I went explicitly because I was like it's been so long since I actually kind of exposed and exposed like the reality of of animal farming and suffering. So I think maybe for some of us, maybe none of us, is not true for everyone. I don't want to recommend everyone do this if you don't think it's good for you, but I think people like at least like for myself I found as a useful reminder of actually kind of what you were saying, artie, at the beginning is you know actually how bad is the life of hens in a caged environment? Actually it's awful. And you know, before you might have some doubts, you know how much time should we be spending on this, how much money should we be spending on this. And you see it, you're like, ah, yes, this is awful. I feel vindicated.
Amy:So I found it very useful. Do you think you would go back, Aarti? Do you feel like you would revisit the farms to kind of reignite yourself?
Aarti:Maybe after a while. I'm particularly interested in seeing more cage-free farms right now.
James:That's still growing.
Aarti:Yeah, the result and to see, I think, happy hens, that would be great. But yeah, I think, even coming from a law background, there was no field work there. I think the extent of what you do outside of, uh, desk work, paperwork, laptop work would be if you go to court, if you're involved in litigation, but otherwise it everything is behind a screen. So, going from that, then working a little bit in policy, to the first, I think three days into our fellowship we were having these classes and they sent us out to dairies in Delhi. So the Delhi city has these dairy clusters, these different dairy colonies. So it had started out with, when the city was obviously smaller, these dairies were more on the outskirts, but as the city has expanded they're very much in the middle of the city.
Aarti:My first week in the animal welfare space, while contemplating it as a career, was being sent out to this dairy colony. It's called Ghazipur. Since then, over the years, I may have seen, at least I've visited maybe at least 150-200 dairies, and that remains the worst of the lot. It's this cluster where you've got buffaloes, and it's mostly buffaloes that are tied in place with tiny metal chains that you can see digging into their necks. They're tied in place, they sit, sleep, eat poop in the same spot their entire lives, eat poop in the same spot their entire lives. And we were taking pictures, right, because all of this was with the point of view of, okay, you've learned what the law says, what court orders have prescribed what dairies are supposed to do or what they're not allowed to do. Now go out, document the violations, come back, write a report and then a representation and take it to the necessary authorities and ask them to now implement the law against you know, for these violations. So I mean, I had to very, very quickly, you know, like to be more clinical and just be like, okay, I will deal with the emotions later. I'm going to right now, document, document, document. We will deal with this later. You go back home and you can unpack all of this.
Aarti:Yeah, so it was, was honestly, it was shocking and I think through the next couple of years also, when I have done other field work, other made visits to other all kinds of facilities, this is not something that I like, it's not something that energizes me, it's not something that I find the best use of my time and skills, but I do have people who absolutely love it like that. They consider all other work they call, they consider that paperwork and they find that incredibly dull and demotivating. So I think it is great where you know the right people were put in the right places. But it was incredibly important to be there to to see for yourself firsthand exactly what the amount of suffering was, what each aspect of this entailed.
Aarti:Because until you go to say, for example, like a poultry I mean from a distance you can see that maybe in pictures you can see the feathers that are missing, they can have injuries. But until you go, then you see that there are dead hens just lying in the middle of the cages. There are maybe a pile of hens just kept on the just outside the cages and you know they're infested with flies, they are. You know the injured ones, how they are treated and you see each individual one and you kind of you make eye contact with them and it's really a different thing and, like I have to repeat the smell it really gets to you. It's something that stays with you and you kind of just think about that. Okay, and this is their lives. That this is it. This is their lives. This is the one spot that they're stuck in for their entire lives, as much as I didn't like it. I'm also deeply appreciative of the time that I spent doing that.
Amy:Yeah, and witnessing it. So I guess it's about boundaries and knowing what we're each capable of and comfortable with witnessing, but also keeping enough in there as a kind of motivator to the more sort of desk job work that we're doing. Do you think there's any particular barriers to practicing this sense of like self-care, so that we can have longevity in the movement and be sustainable as an advocate? What are some of the kind of barriers that maybe you face, or you recognize the people in your organization face, when it comes to practicing this sense of self-care?
Aarti:I think, the stigma that's associated with it, which is the idea that if you talk about mental health, that oh, there's something wrong with you, not that it is something that you know you need to take care of, no matter what.
Aarti:You don't necessarily have to have any sort of diagnosed disorder in order to you know, even consider this. I think that's most important. And again, coming back to the point of you know, like the slightly toxic attitude that may come in the nonprofit space, which is that if you're not devoting yourself 100% to the cause, 100% of the time, and you're taking even a moment to do something else, then you are not really motivated, you really don't care about the space. I think those kinds of attitudes are incredibly harmful of attitudes are incredibly harmful. So, and stigma, both externally as well as the internalized kind, that until you're able to be able to talk about it, learn, read more, go to therapy, understand yourself better, until you're able to, I think, cross those barriers. I think it's going to be a little bit of a challenge. And like mental health, I mean, I know that's the issue. There's stigmas with it all around the world, but particularly in India as well. And like mental health, I mean, I know that's the issue. There's stigmas with it all around the world, but particularly in India as well, and it's quite an epidemic where I think one in four people in the country have some sort of anxiety or depression or some kind of mental health issue.
Aarti:And I think everyone has those at some point of time. Either you've gone through it yourself or you know someone very close to you who has, and I think, just reminding yourself that you really do need to take care of yourself and you have to take care of the people who are on your team, people who are around you. I try to prioritize it as much as I can. Have conversations with my team also to the extent of okay, if you're not going through a great time, let me know, so that you know we can see if maybe we can take a little off your plate right now.
Aarti:It's not necessarily that you know I need to take, I don't know I'm going through a low phase, I need to take the month off or something, but it would just be that, okay, just a little less pressure can help. It all balances out because at some point they're going to do the same for you. You know you just you pass that on. I think, just that kind of understanding also, that it's not about the person, it's not something that you are, you're not lacking in some way because you have to deal with this. I think it's incredibly human and it's something that we all need to do, coming all back to knowing yourself, knowing what you need, being able to be honest in terms of what you require, and going out and getting that, because if you don't, it's just, you know, brush things under a carpet long enough and you're going to trip over the the lump and break your neck on that you were kind of saying, at least in india.
James:You feel like it's a bit stigmatized, talk about your mental health in india. But I guess my, my sense is from non-profits in the uk and potentially us. It's, it's almost it's not like that anymore or actually that there's like much more openness, that actually you know you should take, should take time off and like it's very good to set boundaries and you know it's a bit it's a bit of a trope, but everyone has these like email footers saying you know I work at these hours, don't feel like you have to reply, but don't work at these hours. You know. Obviously this is one small thing, but I guess my sense is actually that the pendulum has I think it isn't so severely in like the overwork side of the of the non-profit uh world. But what? Maybe just a sense like that. Amy, do you feel like that's reasonable, based on like your uk and maybe us experience as well, or do you think this is my bubble?
Amy:no, I, I think so. I feel like probably more like culturally, in those countries it's still probably stigmatized. I think in our specific movement we're doing pretty well acknowledging it. I guess that's as a result of just seeing so many advocates leave the space and have burnout and thinking, okay, if we want to have people in this space long term, the benefit we get from people staying here long term, as Aaron alluded to, we need to take this on board more. So I think our space, and probably social justice space generally, are probably some of the most forgiving. But yeah, probably in the wider community it's maybe talked about a bit less For sure, and even within the space, there's a generational thing also, I guess.
Aarti:Because the younger generations are, these things are talked about more openly, and actually you do have the absolute opposite problem also of what you call therapy speak, which is where you try to stand up for yourself using these terms but really not understanding the terms of the point completely.
Aarti:You cannot do x, y, z and because you are, you know, completely ignoring my boundaries or just I don't know, just like completely not getting the point. So I think that's definitely an issue. But with anything that's going to be there, there's going to be that overcorrection and I think then it kind of it'll find its balance. But there are starting to be conversations about it, but I still feel like it's on a much smaller scale. Like maybe, hey, okay, I trust these couple of people I'm working with or I'm feeling a little more comfortable so I can talk about it.
Aarti:But would you talk about it in a larger setting? Is that something you feel you know the space or the people around you would understand without judging you, or that they would truly understand? What does it mean to love for these things? Because a lot of people it's very easy to say that, absolutely, we make accommodations for you, know your needs, whatever they may. But when it comes down to it, if it happens that, oh, there's a tight deadline and someone is going through a tough time, oh, to what extent are you really going to understand that Without?
Aarti:you know, judging them or retaliating in some way. So, yeah, I think it'll just take some time, and it is great that it's starting to happen Even here, like so many of my friends also. It's just anecdotally in terms of talking about mental health, seeking therapy whether it's for a specific issue or just to know yourself better or to learn tips and tricks that will help you cope. It's definitely increasing. It's definitely there, but I think the need is so much larger than what's being addressed right now.
Amy:Yeah, and do you think it's possible for the pendulum to swing too far in the other direction of you were saying, like deadlines are approaching but you know, maybe people are having some challenges and so where, as you said, james, like with us being in this space and empathetic, compassionate people, when that also applies to the people that work in the organizations, is there a risk that we kind of push that pendulum too far?
Amy:Because, actually, empathetic, compassionate people, when that also applies to the people that work in the organizations, is there a risk that we kind of push that pendulum too far? Because actually we need to get the work done right, we need to support the animals, we need to help um, and I remember sharon nunez from animal equality talking about this at ava. It was very much a case of park your own feelings to one side, like nothing can compare to what the animals are facing, and it was a very strong kind of impassioned speech to open the conference about that sense, as you were talking, artie, about maybe it feeling like a selfish decision. Do you think that there is a risk of pushing the pendulum too far?
Aarti:the other way Without understanding completely. Yes, there needs to be good faith on all sides that there are certain accommodations being made but they're not going to be misused, and for the other person also to realize that. Okay, maybe I need to push myself a little bit at certain points of time. You neither want them to feel selfish, for you know needing some time or some accommodations, nor do you want them to feel selfish, for you know needing some time or some accommodations, nor do you want them to take advantage of that. So I think it is a difficult thing, but it's you need the moderation kind of. So I think good faith is the most important thing in all of this in in understanding and trusting the people that you work with that they will not take advantage of this and that they know that there will be understanding that is extended towards them should they need something.
Amy:And I think that goes back to you saying about the people that you hire having mission alignment right, and so that's maybe really integral in the hiring process that if you are mission aligned you're likely to always be acting in a sense of good faith.
Aarti:Absolutely, because it comes down to, you know, always making sure that, okay, I want to come back to the space, I want to do this. Yeah, maybe I need to be convinced to take a step back sometimes, and I think you can only do this at a small scale and then slowly expand it. You know, maybe you just do it with your team and then eventually they do it with others and it'll sort of set the ball rolling. But, yeah, there needs to be a proper understanding and good faith and everything in moderation.
James:And I guess to wrap up our section on kind of mental health and burnout and how people can sustain themselves, is there anything else you found that has been quite beneficial to your journey in knowing yourself but also being able to be energized and ready to go for the long term?
Aarti:Grounding. I find that incredibly important because it's so easy to get lost in what you're doing and to just either in what you are doing and kind of forget to just touch base with yourself every now and then, but, like even before going into a meeting, just taking a minute to focus on your breathing, grounding yourself in the moment that's something that has really helped me or, you know, if you're starting to feel overwhelmed, then just stepping away. There's this audio clip that I really enjoy listening to. That really helps you calm down if you're feeling overwhelmed or anxious. It's been. It's called Weightless. It was actually composed with neuroscientists and musicians, together with the idea of slowing down your heartbeat and to kind of calm you down, so that I find it a great background track to work towards, sometimes Just on loop, just constant.
Amy:So good In fact.
Aarti:I mean, the original version is like a six or seven minute thing. They have made a 10 hour version on YouTube. Oh no, and it goes on in the background. But you know, you really realize that your heartbeat starts meeting the beat of the song after a while. It's pretty cool, nice. Those are the two things that I found that I come back to often enough that if you ever just need a moment just stepping back and taking and you don't need a lot of time for this it could just be five, be five minutes, ten minutes we'll definitely link that song below because I'm really interested to listen to it and see how that affects how I work.
Aarti:So do use it on with earphones though, because that makes a big difference. Use it with the headphones. You'll kind of you'll be able to feel that uh beat a lot, a lot better nice, interesting, very good to know.
Amy:Let's talk about your work at the Bajoran Initiative for Accountability, then. So one of the first organizations really dedicated to the accountability issue and not necessarily garnering new commitments. So this is looking at the companies who have previously made cage-free policies and really focusing on that accountability piece and making sure they follow through on that commitment. What inspired that approach, as opposed to organizations who work across both accountability and starting to get new commitments or potentially only getting new commitments? Was there something in particular that really inspired you to just pick that accountability piece?
Aarti:I think when we started out, we thought we'd look at both. The first six months were spent on prep, on talking to a lot of people who have already been in the space for a while. Amy, we spoke a couple of times. We spoke to a lot of people just to understand, because it's very difficult to get a sense of the space if you're not already working on it or if you don't have some familiarity with it, right? So I guess initially it was like, yeah, great, we had a list of I think about 100 plus brands and companies where we're like, yes, we need them to get a commitment. Oh, which other brand can you think of? Which other cafe or can you think of? And we just got this long list. Then we had to start thinking that, okay, what is our lowest hanging fruit at this point of if we want to see in terms of if corporate relations has not been widely successful in the country before and we're restarting that or we're reprioritizing that what the lowest hanging fruit for us would be one when commitments already exist. So you don't need to convince a company on the merits of the issue.
Aarti:We already understood from the public policy space and because I said right, implementation of laws in this country is. It's another issue altogether. For a lot of countries, getting the law passed is the victory. For us, that's the starting point, because I mean, I've had law enforcement officials, I've had the police. I've been in a police station where you're trying to, you know, report a crime and they just say, yeah, but that's just the law. And you kind of, maybe the first time you're a bit dumbfounded. But your law enforcement, I mean, they kind of a lot of times it's like, yeah, we'll see if we want to do this. So implementation is another thing, which is why, even in the public policy space, the understanding was what is the point of?
Aarti:going after new laws all the time If the laws that are already existing are not implemented. Similarly, at this space also and we started understanding that, first of all, there's very little reporting, so it's very difficult to understand what exactly is the reality of it in the country. But when we're talking about coming back to the lowest hanging fruit so where you already have an existing commitment, where then you just have to push towards implementation, and that's something since we've already done the only difference is you did that with the government earlier. Now you're doing this with companies. Maybe the tools that you have are different. The tone and the attitude with which you approach this is different.
Aarti:Then we had a bunch of these companies that you know. We spent a couple of days on chicken watch. We got a whole list of companies. We saw which of them exist in India. Then we realized that, okay, if we're still talking lowest hanging fruits, we have to look at the ones that have the 2025 commitment, and so that I think from November of 2023, we decided to focus solely on that.
Aarti:We realized that if 25 passes and we're not able to show much for it, then what leverage do you have to talk to companies about the deadlines that are you know longer, yeah, so the idea was, we just go after this. Maybe you've got about 20, 30 companies and that is your list. Now that you make sure that you, you know, you obviously you adapt to the cultural and local context, but you make sure that you keep up the pressure on those companies. And so we realized that, okay, we also, you know, like the, as the name was, it's about accountability, so we'll only focus on that. I mean, eventually it'd be great to be able to expand to broilers and to dairy and to pigs and maybe even plant-based fishes. There's just so many aspects, insect welfare, there's just so much that we can get from it. But to know how well that will work, we need to see how things go with the lowest hanging fruit right now yeah, for some idea of like how big this accountability gap is.
James:So, like you know, can you have any numbers on hand? Or, for example, in India, for the biggest 100 companies that have committed, you know how many of them are on track to meet 2025 commitments and how many are not?
Aarti:Too few for our liking at the time. At this moment, well, for one, we're still trying to get the numbers which companies are incredibly hesitant to share with us. I mean, we've had, like you know, spoken to Global HQ of a company where they said that it's the internal policy not to share country data, and that's that's. You know, even if it makes zero logical sense, you try to convince them. There's very little you can do. So I think, to some degree we are operating in the dark because we don't know the reality of it. But even if you had to just see from the regional numbers, so some companies look like they would be on track. But I think we need to be realistic in terms of our expectations as well. So, right now, thinking that 100% of the companies are going to meet 100% would be, yeah, that's not going to be realistic, that's not something that we're going to be able to do. But I think if you're able to get I don't know half the companies to meet 50%, at least that would be significant. Right now, we're not limiting ourselves to that, of course, though that may be how we evaluate success at the end of the year, but right now we're still pushing for 100% to be at 100%, or maybe even 60 or 80% to be at 100%, because maybe we're prioritizing certain companies over others, that you also want to see which would have a higher impact versus lower impact. But I do want to say that the difference that I myself have noted since November 23, which is when we started reaching out to now, is the number of conversations I had first where I had to explain what the issue was like.
Aarti:What do you mean? You know? They're like oh wait, so do you supply eggs? They're like no, you're not talking about that. What do you mean by cage trade? Where did this come from? One person and I think she was like the head of media and communications, and she's like what is this commitment? I said it's your commitment, they're our company. Where did you find it? On your website? I'm like oh no, that's just an international thing, that's for HQ. I'm like no, it's global, it's across all your operations. So here I am having to explain their own policies to them, but they kind of also told me that okay if they don't know it.
Aarti:But I noticed that from there to just a few months later, the difference, which was just that. Okay, I was used to already having to explain the issue, and it happened that once or twice I was told that, no, no, we know what this is and that was absolutely delightful, that I'm so glad. So now I don't need to explain this to you again, I don't need to. You know, go after what my word had pretty much become a rehearsed speech, after what had pretty much become a rehearsed speech. So I think that that change has been very, very visible over the last two years a year and a half, maybe. So I am hopeful. I think there is growth. Right now is a fantastic time because we are seeing different aspects, okay, so, for instance, what I mean is the producers are there, they are willing to grow. Given enough of an advance order, given enough of a safety net, they are very happy to grow. We've got the government that has started being invested in this. There are model farms that are being set up in different parts of the country where they will then have training. They also have these online training webinars and videos that are available on their website that have been translated into a couple of different local languages to make it more accessible. At the same time, we had the Global Food Partners entered India just last year. So that's another avenue and another, you know, avenue of solutions for companies to focus on. So I think it's all coming together now we're able to see that.
Aarti:Okay, is this your problem? Hey, great, go here. Okay, so is it that I want to stick to the same suppliers that I have? I don't want to go through the hassle of changing my egg supplier. Great, why don't you help them transition? Go to the government workshops, go get trained. Let them transition from there. Okay, no, I find it too expensive. They're logistic issues Great, go talk to Global Food Partners.
Aarti:I don't know who the producers are. Great, you know you can go talk to the producers association, the poultry producers association. So it's really good that you know there are solutions that are available, and so many times when you talk to HQ, they love to give the answer that is just that. Yeah, but local context, you know, prevents us from doing this because we just don't have. This is just not available right now. The market isn't developed, price is an issue, and then you just have to be absolutely no. That is not true. Like we have ourselves provided these solutions, and even though we are an accountability group, we are happy to, you know, make introductions. That is the extent of what help that we lend to companies. But once those solutions have been provided, then you really don't have an excuse to continue saying that, oh, local context precludes us from doing this.
Amy:It all seems like it's moving in the right direction. As you're saying, there's like lots of different options that companies can use. You've got global food partners, which is great, doing the cage-free credits, although I guess the challenge here is that we are in 2025 and a lot of these companies are supposed to have fulfilled this 100% cage free commitment by the end of this year. Do you think that mistakes have been made in the movement not focusing on accountability sooner? And there was a real focus on getting regional reporting, so wanting global companies, their regional offices, to also have a commitment on their website or at least be aware of the commitments that they start making this progress. What do you think was the kind of the challenges? I know you've only been here since 2023, but I'm assuming as you came in you were thinking, wow, there's not a lot of time here to actually make progress on these commitments.
Aarti:It would have been great if it started just you know exactly what is going on right now could have started even just two years before, because where we stand right now, the only realistic way for companies to meet their deadline for most of them to meet their the goal of 100% by the deadline is credits. I would assume that is what finally motivated global food partners to also enter here with the idea that, okay, if these companies in these countries need to meet their commitments, then the only realistic way is credit. So now credits are available. So I think it would have been great if this ecosystem could have been developed earlier.
Aarti:I don't want to say that if we just us, just you know if we had started earlier or just the animal welfare activists had started earlier, because in the absence of that ecosystem, you're not going to have any success, because there's only so many times you can just tell a company no, go do it. I don't care how you do this, but you just have to. You made a commitment, go fulfill it. But if there are no local solutions that are in place, if there's just no one they can buy those eggs from, then I mean, you can keep screaming that, but nothing is going to happen.
Aarti:I think that is the reason why everything is also coming together now and why I am hopeful for these companies. And if we're able to just convince them on the credits front, then I think they can at least be able to report 100% progress and honestly, the money also will not matter to them, given their huge budgets and how little of it actually will involve eggs. Maybe it's just visual thinking at this point of time that if we could just take everything that we've managed to achieve right now and, you know, rewind it by two years, it would have been. Maybe it would be at a point where companies could meet their commitment by physical sourcing alone. The farmers would have had the time and the investment and the security to upscale their production facilities.
James:Yeah, what are the reasons? Do you think, why people didn't start doing accountability work sooner, I guess. Why do you think it took so long? Or why do you think still, maybe it's kind of like under-prioritized relative to other advocacy?
Aarti:First off, because farmed animal welfare itself isn't as prioritized Within that. When people even start talking about farmed animal welfare, it is very natural to, just you know, be drawn towards public policy. We did not start earlier because public policy was in our favor. We had this fantastic court order that had put a ban on new battery cages. So the idea was that, okay, let's just work on implementing this, make sure that no new facilities are established after the order. This was an order that came out towards the end of 2018. So at that point of time, it was yeah, that the Delhi High Court had come out with this order that says that after this particular date, no new battery cages should be established. So that was a temporary injunction that was placed while the case continued. So I think at that point of time, it sounded like the law itself would be enough, to you know, to make the change to the goal being getting rid of battery cages in the country. But we kind of lost that when this injunction was lifted, because new law came out specifically for egg-laying hens and that, unfortunately, under different terminology, has basically allowed cages, because they call them conventional colony enclosure. They say it's like six to eight birds. They've increased the space requirement, stocking density, but it's still nowhere near the minimum that we would accept. But now fighting that, that is under challenge in court, but that's going to take its own sweet time. Uh, you've got, you know, the benches change. You've got so many adjournments that keep happening.
Aarti:So I think it was around that time when we realized that this is not in our favor right now, and while we will challenge this, of course animal groups are challenging all the laws that are not, you know, in our favor. But while that is going on, maybe we should look at things from a slightly different perspective. I think a big thing is also that you've seen that this works in other countries for sure. I mean, we've all seen those viral demonstrations and protests that have gone out, maybe something that PETA has done, for instance, where you know you could have people dripping blood or animals, you know, protesting on the street. So they could be, I don't know, protesting with the logos of and names of companies which and you know they deliberately calling them out for cruelty, their logos may be dripping blood and it's so easy to, you know, just think that, okay, but that's not something that we can do here either, because the legal context may not be in our favor, or just culturally and socially it may not be as acceptable, so it is very easy to just dismiss it.
Aarti:I guess, when it came to a point where it was necessity, we kind of realized that, okay, maybe we can try to modify that to what can be done in the country, what is suitable to the local context, and maybe it's not going to be those kind of wide scale protests, maybe it's going to be something else. Maybe we'll focus a little bit more on the digital aspect, maybe we will focus on consistent pressure as opposed to one large demonstration. They'll focus on consistent pressure as opposed to one large demonstration. And, you know, maybe we'll just look at different things. So I think, yeah, it's necessity. That was the main driver.
Amy:And what are some high level, high sort of leverage tactics you can use? So you're saying that maybe protests aren't suitable. Like what specifically can you focus your efforts in to make sure that these companies follow through on their accountability?
Aarti:It all boils down to. All of these companies are incredibly sensitive about their reputation. While, say, you wanted to do a large-scale protest, they would probably first come at you because the law may be on their side, or even if not, they could. You know, maybe that's a great way to shut you up, but maybe, okay, let's look at, don't give them that chance. Maybe if you don't have 100 people on the street, maybe you just have two. You have two people on the street, you take a picture of that, you upload that on social media and you get that to garner more attention.
Amy:And you had specific success with this right. This is not like hypothetical. You've actually physically sent a couple of people that got the conversation talking. It wasn't this huge protest, it was two people outside the headquarters, so that's a really interesting tactic.
Aarti:Yeah, absolutely so. It's just, you know, trial and error, being open to that as well and understanding that not everything you do is going to work. Maybe you just you'll have to, you know, drop eight things out of 10. I think that is one thing. Just understanding how to leverage social media, for instance, and that's something that we're still figuring out. I think, yeah, that is one thing, just understanding how to leverage social media, for instance, and that's something that we're still figuring out. I think that's what a lot of people are still figuring out. But if that is what is needed to call out companies, okay. If you cannot take out an advertisement in a newspaper with a particular company's brand name, if you cannot get the media to you know, they may also be journalists may not want to. Or a newspaper publication may not want to publish an article that specifically names certain companies because they are also concerned about liability issues, that okay, maybe.
Aarti:Social media is the thing that we do. Emails have been quite successful for us as well, particularly escalation strategies. So I think that is something that people can look at also, that you may that even if you just reach out to a company and you don't get a response, you may try that multiple times, but sometimes just an escalation, copying the people you've already tried to reach out to, but you know, escalating it to their boss has been effective. I've got panic calls from you know people who think but why do you do that? That wasn't nice. I think at every level we've seen that. Okay, we've had to maybe drop the number of targets that we had, so we don't have specific strategies yet. We're still playing around with different ideas and we just. I think this year will be very interesting because it gives us a lot more opportunity for creativity and to see what will work.
James:Before you said that. I guess there's a few interesting things that stick out to me. One is your kind of willingness to iterate and learn and almost fail, and then you know, drop things that don't work. And the other one is also try things that you know almost you don't expect to work seem unconventional, and you know your point of the two-person protest stands out to me because mine protests work because they're large, they signal public opinion and commitment to an issue. But in this case it wasn't quite that work. So can you say more about why this two-person protest seemed to actually be effective with this company?
Aarti:With a large-scale protest. I think it would be the best-case scenario. If you're able to get a lot of people immobilized on ground, you can get media coverage, organic coverage, you can spread awareness. The company gets scared. But there's just we'd need police permission, we'd need to get enough people who are interested in this. But we realized that there's just too many complications over there. So we just thought that, okay, what if we sent two people outside this place, where we knew one of our target companies was having an external meeting? We just sent them this one placard that just said you know a picture of a hen in a cage saying keep your promise, and we told them to make sure that they were good photos. Now, that did not do anything. We, I think, on like a few days later we put that on social media and then we tried to get. We asked all our followers to tag the company in the comments. We were also fortunate that we were able to get even I think even just like 50, 60 comments in an hour, because it all came together and that was the first time that that company, or a company in India particularly, would be facing something like that. So I, the company, did reach out asking for, you know, wanting to talk.
Aarti:It all comes down to the same thing, right? It's about reputation. So the company is sensitive about that and you cannot leverage traditional media to your advantage. You can't get them to. Maybe, you know, publish an article that names the company. Maybe you try something else.
Aarti:And I think that's the thing that my team and I are most excited about in this space, which is that your traditional rules are kind of thrown out of the window and you know you kind of have to unlearn a lot of things very, very intentionally. You can think outside the box. It's more effective. If you do that, you can try different tactics. I mean, something that I was really excited about that we did recently was just changing the structure of an email. You don't go in the usual order.
Aarti:I started putting you know, trying things with OK, do I put like one emoji in the subject line? Maybe that will stand out in the inbox. Would that help? It did. Maybe you just put the ask front and center and you can just have like a tiny five sentence email front and center and you can just have like a tiny five sentence email. I think that we've got more responses to that than we've got to, you know, to a longer, more professionally drafted emails. So you know, just questioning the very basic things that you may take for granted that this is what an email looks like, this is what communication looks like, these are what pressure tactics look like. It's very interesting to be able to challenge that and to kind of try whatever works. That's one of the most exciting things over here is just okay, you got a new idea, let's see how that works.
Amy:I think this is what I love most about your work, and I'm a huge advocate for creative tactics and really thinking about how to make it as simple as possible for yourself as a leader and also as an organization. Being open to that and trying new things and testing these out, I think, is just so integral to the success that you've had so far. Your overall like openness to try new things, I think is something that really excites me about the work that you're doing.
Aarti:Your newsletter is actually something that really is a great way for us to, you know, kind of think out of the box and think creatively. That the user friendly is creativity newsletter. I'm forgetting exactly what the name is. I think the subject line is something that kind of grabs your eye because it's sometimes it's just so out there. I think most times it has nothing to do with animal welfare. It's just that these strategies have worked with these different groups. So, yeah, that's quite exciting.
Amy:Thanks Arti. Yeah, welfare, it's just that these strategies have worked with these different groups. So, yeah, that's quite exciting. Thanks, artie. Yeah, I'll link that in the show notes. It's a sub stack called heads up and we just summarize a campaign that's worked or a marketing campaign that's worked really well outside of the movement, to try and get us to shift some of our thinking to new ideas well nice.
James:This has been, yeah, super interesting and, yeah, similar to what amy was saying, I feel very inspired and, yeah, I always think it's amazing when people kind of take this very kind of startup-y approach just you know, a kind of relatively like low ego try out some things, see what works and kind of build from there. I think it's always a very promising way to kind of build a group or campaign.
Amy:So let's move on to your policy background then. So you were a law graduate and then public policy professional. How did working in policy lead you to working in the animal advocacy space?
Aarti:So I think it was towards very horribly in the middle of law school it was a five-year program Right in the third year I suddenly realized that, hey, I don't quite like this very much, but halfway through I can't really leave because very much. But you know, halfway through I can't really leave because this is a program that you kind of. You do this right after you are out of high school, so right after grade 12. So it's a five year integrated program. There's the understanding that, hey, if I drop out right now, I'm going to be stuck with just my, you know, grade 12 certificate, which is not going to help. So you push through, kind of try to figure out what it is that you like. Maybe it's not the standard things of a corporate job. You know where you're stuck in a corporate law firm or where you're going to work like 18 hour days on the regular. It's not going to be litigation where you are, you know, stuck running around in courts and then kind of trying to explore other things.
Aarti:One thing that was incredibly helpful in our law school was you had these research centers and it was the beginning of this, where then you started to intern. You'll be a research assistant and you realize that, okay, there are these various policy spaces that you don't really think about very much when you are studying law. Maybe you just look at the outcome. You'll focus more on the judicial aspect of things, but we're starting to work on this. So I got involved in tech policy, so looking at it from the lens of how tech policies can affect human rights as well, in terms of your privacy, for instance. But at the same time, I think after a while, I realized I really enjoyed the bits which were the regular conferences that used to happen, where we used to be able to meet people from just so many different spaces. It was another thing was, which was great was dealing with different stakeholders, and it had this organizational structure where you had these different working groups that, for that, was composed of these different stakeholder groups. So you had, like, the commercial stakeholders, the non-commercial stakeholders, the government sector, and you have all of these and you start to realize that maybe it's because it's so clearly demarcated that you kind of start to understand what the different stakeholders really, what their requirements are, what is it that they are advocating, what's most important to them.
Aarti:I think, kind of taking that and understanding how you need to be open to different stakeholders. You need to be able to speak in a way that you know various groups are able to take in. It's so easy to you know, get pulled into, I think, particularly when you're from a legal background into legal jargon and using more complicated words, sentences, you know, trying to sound fancy, but ultimately, the point is to be able to explain things to people, and to communicate is not just about how fancy you sound when you talk. It is about truly getting the point across. So you know, and how do you deal with these different stakeholder groups? And that's something that I think you'll see in any space.
Aarti:After a while, I started to realize that, okay, I don't really care about the subject matter, but why can't I just find a subject matter I care about, with everything else being just like it is? And it took a little while, but I think I've kind of stumbled into that space now where there's so many different stakeholder groups that you deal with. I learned how to communicate with the government, for instance. How do you communicate with the government officials here? What's the kind of language that you need to use? You know just simple things like how do you show respect to them Like, because that is something that you need to do over here.
Aarti:At the same time, if you're talking to another stakeholder group, what is? What would you do? What changes in that sense? So I think that is something that I do carry over into the space as well. So now, for instance, if you ever want to understand the producer's perspective when you're talking to corporate you know, to companies also, understanding that, okay, their motivations are going to be completely different. If you're talking to the government, understanding that, okay, which are the points that you need to lead with? That is something that they are going to be more open to and they're going to be able to understand a lot better. So I think that was the most important part.
James:It seems like what you were saying in that you kind of had to, you know, do some new things or things that feel a bit you know, stranger, first to kind of get some wins in the policy space You're talking about, you know, talking in a certain way, maybe addressing in a certain way, explaining concepts differently. So it seems like one thing you've carried over from that part of your career is this idea of you know being very focused on results and getting wins, almost like no matter what the tools. I guess is there anything else you're taking from your policy background and applying it to your work today, or what else have you learned that's been quite useful yeah, that would be most important.
Aarti:And you see that in the animal space also, because so often our main argument or our main, the main point with which you approach an issue, may not be welfare. So much of my time in animal public policy also animal welfare, public policy was spent on understanding environmental laws, because that was the stronger, it had a stronger mechanism that could be followed. Or maybe you think of food safety, you think of criminal law and you think of, maybe, aspects of public nuisance, for instance. Is that the hook that you need to drive home the point? Because ultimately it doesn't matter what the means are, as long as you're able to get the end, which is say you want a particular farm shutdown. Understanding, it's not about you, you are the conduit for the main point. So, for instance, I think at that point this bit where I was working in the tech policy space and was working quite a bit with the government, at that point of time I had colored hair, so like the tips of my hair were like a nice bright blue.
Aarti:But I also understood that now when you're working over there, so you know, you tie it up and you put it in a bun or something so it's not as visible, and to a lot of people it might just be that, no, but why can't I express myself? Why can't I be genuinely who I am? Why do I have to hold that back? Because that doesn't stop me from being a, you know, effective activist, not effective advocate for the cause, and I completely get that. But again, if you know that the people you're speaking to are from maybe a more conservative background, maybe they will look at you differently because of, I mean, whether it's tattoos, it's colored hair, no matter what it is, it really doesn't matter. If you need to, you know, wear that mask for, you know, to get to a particular point, then that's perfectly fine, as long as you do that mindfully as well, like you're doing that very consciously.
Aarti:It's not that I am losing or giving up my identity to this space. It is that okay for a short period of time, for this particular thing, I'm going to do this. I mean, you may also have to be, like you know, incredibly differential when you're speaking to certain groups. You know, with your yes, sir, absolutely, please, thank you. But maybe when you're speaking to another group, you want to make sure that that is not something that you do. So, for instance, if we're ever talking to you know companies, to corp execs, we want to make sure that is never you know the kind of tone with which you approach them, because that automatically puts you on different footing and it changes the power dynamics.
Aarti:So I guess being aware of how these small things can have quite a bit of an impact is pretty important, and a lot of it may just come, you know instinctively, but then you know taking a moment to just think about it. And how do you prep for this particular thing?
Amy:I read an interesting I think it's an article about when I was founding animal ask about a weirdness point. I think the team at Charitable Entrepreneurship were like interested in this and I definitely agree and I actually wish more people assessed kind of like your sort of tally of weirdness points. You can only have so many before. As you say, people maybe take your work less seriously or, you know, treat you in a different way, and this was definitely something I was conscious of in corporate relations. Like I have a lot of tattoos and I would always wear like long sleeves. It just kind of wasn't worth it on that day for someone's opinion to be instantly changed of me by dressing in a certain way, like I wanted to present myself in a way that was just as simple as possible to understand, and I think those sacrifices are actually really important. I'll try and pick that out because I do think it's interesting, even from like a behavioral science thing. It's so simple for us to do, but I do think it makes a big difference to the conversation.
Aarti:Absolutely. You don't want to be the subject of the conversation, right? You know you try to minimize that as much as possible.
James:Yeah, I like to say I think it's like this. I had a very similar experience. I was in court last week not finding anything animal related, but it's okay, it finished well. But yeah, I mean I don't like wearing a suit, but I was like I should put on a suit and look respectable and I should shave and look respectable and this will probably help me in the eyes of the judge. Even though there's all kind of reasons why people, you know, try not to be biased, it's often subconscious and you can't help it. So, like these little things that people can do to almost like put their ego and their preferences aside to do something yeah, not in my case, but, like you know, that's hopefully going to help animals.
Aarti:I think it is definitely worth it and that weirdness point is so true because we're already talking about, you know, treating and not allowing, something that is so normalized in society. So we're already really weird.
James:Like you know, we're talking about how you need to challenge.
Aarti:you need to question the things that you've taken for granted, and you know, yes, I care about the hen, though I care about insects or fish. You're already incredibly weird.
Amy:Yeah, sex or fish. You're already incredibly weird. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And is there something that you feel as though the movement as a whole is there, like specific policy wins, that you feel like, from your experience, we're on the cusp of that we should be pushing towards putting resource towards? Maybe it's in India specifically? Is there something you feel as though we could be putting more resource in?
Aarti:I don't think at this particular moment which kind of also takes me to, you know, our work at Bharat Initiative for Accountability, which was also that you know, public policy has its cycles, so there may be times when things are incredibly they're going in your favor because I don't know politically, socially different factors that play into it. We had some incredible wins that we could rely on. A lot of our laws on paper are, I think, some of the strongest in the world If you just look at the amount of protection that's given to animals and the punishment may not be as much. Let's not even go into the implementation aspect of it. But if you're just looking at that aspect of you know, like what does the law say? Some of it is like surprisingly comprehensive. But I think it's also like kind of understanding at this particular point of time maybe it does not make sense to put too much, too many resources into the space and wait it out, I guess, until the cycle starts turning more in our favor and at the same time maybe work on the market side, work on demand and work on, maybe with the producers and trying to build that sector so that it's ready for when this change comes. Because I mean I do.
Aarti:I am optimistic that cages will be banned at some point of time, that it will be seen as cruel Because, like one of the best things that we have in our cruelty law, the primary cruelty law, which is the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act, is the way animals are defined, which is basically any living being that's non-human, which is incredibly vast. I mean, by that logic, every single insect also falls under this Implementation different beast. Entirely Because of this, we don't have that what a lot of other countries see, which is an exception for farmed animals. So I think that, with those laws and given the way cages are, the way that a lot of industrial practices are, I do feel like in some time these practices will definitely be seen as violative of the law, but at what point that happens is yet to be seen and it definitely feels like that's a strategy that's played out before, where organizations feel as though going straight into policy is just kind of like a waste of time.
Amy:We need to get industry on side. We need to get those commitments and change industry there so that there's less opposition when you go into the policy space and then parallel working on the public opinion so that once those kind of further progress, then it feels like the right time to go into policy, because you're just dealing with less opposition and more awareness generally. And yeah, that feels like the same for India. Is that right?
Aarti:Absolutely, and also understanding what's the cost of losing, like how much harm can be done by losing a particular case or getting an order that's not in your favor. So maybe it's time to know that. Okay, strategically, you can step back While you still. You know you may pursue certain things, but maybe don't put all your metaphorical eggs in that basket.
James:Yeah, I think there's an interesting point there on people only ever consider the upsides of the case, but actually there are downsides, like especially in laws, like setting a precedent or you know, almost even if you don't literally set a precedent, future kind of campaigners and organizations will kind of look upon that case where you lost and be like oh, it's not worth challenging this, or like this is kind of set in stone. So I think there are serious risks to going for something big and losing as well.
Aarti:Yeah, and I think part of this is also like, if you think about how you approach these issues, like I said, through different lengths, whether it's environmentally, whether it's consumer based, whether it is food safety based, similarly, you can also, you know, I think, diversification of strategy is incredibly important. So whatever sticks will be great, through whatever means, even if it's not public policy, if it's private policy, if it is producer engagement, if it is trying to uplift that sector, if it's you know something else, it doesn't matter as long as it's helping the animals. And I think right now we are starting to see the beginning of that in India also, where there is, I think, corporate engagement. Corporate accountability is still fairly new, but it is slowly growing, so I am hopeful for how that will continue developing.
James:And now, moving on to the kind of last questions we asked everyone, what's one bit of news you're grateful to hear recently?
Aarti:Recently, the government of India had come out with a document about an economic survey and in there the document actually quoted the UNFCCC in terms of the benefits of veganism, about how lowering your dairy consumption is actually integral for sustainability and how maybe it's time now to talk to your friends and family about lowering their intake, for this from a sustainability lens. But still, it's true, we'll take it. We'll take it Especially since the government tends to place so much emphasis on subsidizing these industries. And I know this is not a law, this is not a policy, but just to see that in a government document was really exciting.
Amy:And do you have any media recommendations? You've actually provided us with a great list here, which we will link in the show notes, but is there something particular from there that stands out that you'd like to speak on now, just if you're?
Aarti:interested in this space, just subscribing to the many, many, many newsletters that are there. It's actually quite, quite surreal when you take a step back and look at the number of resources that are available, even if you just want to talk about farmed animal welfare. I mean, you've got the hive thing, you've got the fast, you've got. If you want to look at it from a slightly broader lens, you've got the 80,000 hours newsletter. There's just so many of it. In fact, it could be a little bit of a challenge going through everything.
Aarti:Like I said, my two reads bookmark is really, really large, so I love that. But aside from that, there's this one book because of my interest in mental health that I did link over there, which is Maybe you Should Talk to Someone, which is about a therapist who finds herself needing to go to therapy and all the many things that she learns through that, and I found that it's a really great book, and I also just find it incredibly important to escape and to get your break from the space and maybe even get inspired to think in a different direction by just escaping into fiction every now and then. So that's something that I definitely love to recommend.
James:And how can people get more involved with your work or learn more about what you do?
Aarti:You can visit our website, accountabilitymattersin. You can go to the action page and we put up our latest campaigns. You can follow us on social media. The links are on our action page. So, yeah, it'd be really exciting to see. If you want to learn more about the issue, we've got that as well. So, yeah, we recently had just updated it, so we're excited about the website too, so please go check that out. Aside from that, yeah, I think keep an eye on our social media. You can join our newsletter. You can join our newsletter. You can join our action team on the take action page of the website and then you'll get regular updates as well as quick actions that you can take that can help hens in the country.
Amy:Well, thanks so much, Arti. It's been so interesting. I think, yeah, so intrinsically linked to the work that you're doing, to be focusing on mental health. I'm really pleased you're an advocate for that, for your team and now for the movement as a whole through this episode. So thanks so much for bringing that to the conversation and for all your important work in India.
Aarti:Thank you so much. This was very exciting, very fun.