How I Learned to Love Shrimp
How I Learned To Love Shrimp is a podcast showcasing innovative and impactful ways to help animals and build the animal advocacy movement.
We talk to experts about a variety of topics: animal rights, animal welfare, alternative proteins, the future of food, and much more. Whether it's political change, protest, technological innovation or grassroots campaigns, we aim to cover it all with deep dives we release every two weeks.
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How I Learned to Love Shrimp
Julia Reinelt on why supporting parents is integral to the success and sustainability of our work
A critical look at the entwined relationship between parenthood and the animal advocacy movement. Julia Reinelt shares her insights on how organisations can become more supportive to parents in the advocacy space.
• Julia introduces herself and discusses her journey in the animal advocacy movement
• The challenges of balancing advocacy work and parenting
• Understanding the family-unfriendly aspects of the animal advocacy movement
• Suggestions on creating more inclusive environments for parents within organisations
• The impact of geographical location on parental support in advocacy
• Insights on the necessity of normalising parenting conversations across the movement
• How advocating for family-friendly policies can foster sustainability
• The role of the AVA summits in promoting family-friendly initiatives
• Calls for listeners to engage with these conversations and advocate for change
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We do work in a relatively family unfriendly movement like, especially compared to other parts of the nonprofit sector, right Like which is crazy when you think about it. Like all the social movement nonprofits they're like super family friendly, like it's really just an interesting subset of people. I guess that gather in the animal world and, you know, being confronted with like kind of anti-natalist arguments is definitely emotionally challenging. While I find them ethically really interesting and like I think it's an interesting conversation to have philosophically, I still feel like you know, it's challenging to be confronted in your very personal life. Like it's one thing if I talk about something like on a theoretical level, but then you know someone like basically attacking you as a person is different.
James:Hi, my name is Amy.
Amy:And my name is James.
James:And this is how I Learned to Love Schwimm a podcast about promising ways to help animals and build the animal advocacy movement. We're kicking off this episode with an awesome limited time opportunity for one lucky advocate to win a free ticket to any Ava Summit event by engaging with Ava's post about this podcast. You can find it on Ava's LinkedIn and Instagram. It's super easy and it'll only take a minute or two. You just need to like the post, leave a comment with your thoughts on the episode and tag a friend who you'd recommend this podcast to, and you could be in with a chance of winning that one free ticket to any Ava Summit up and coming event.
James:This week, Julia Reinelt talks us through her experience of being a parent in the movement and how unfriendly the movement can be to parents in a similar position. Julia talks us through the importance of making a space that parents can thrive within and why this contributes to the sustainability of our work An episode we would encourage all listeners to spend time with, not just parents, but leaders, employees, aspiring leaders. I think everyone could learn a lot from Julia's insight and how you could help parents working in this space. Aside from the parenting chat, we, of course, talk through the ins and outs of the AVA summit that Julia leads, the regional events, the top complaints that the AVA team receive, the surprising cost-effectiveness of the conference and how they're creating more family-friendly conferences step by step.
James:Hi everyone. We're joined today by Julia Reinelt. She is leading AVA International, a non-profit creating a variety of in-person platforms for animal and vegan advocates worldwide. Before joining Ava, she was a campaigner in the retail sector, built up the first incubator for alternative protein startups and worked on strategic planning, impact evaluation and organisational development for ProVeg International. Welcome, ilya.
Julia:Hi, thank you so much for having me so excited to be here.
James:You're so welcome. We've both benefited from AVA summits in the past hugely, so very excited that you were in the founding team to start that up, but also continuing to lead on that project. I'd love to know, initially, what's something you've changed your mind on recently.
Julia:I feel like since the first AVA events, I've really changed my mind about how divided the animal advocacy movement is.
Julia:Meaning I used to think that it was very divided and very almost like hostile, and that there was all this infighting going on and you know. But I don't really think that anymore. I think we've really come a long way and like it could be, it just isn't that hostile anymore and, you know, that's why I've also updated and hopefully Ava obviously is contributing to that development. Yeah, yeah, or maybe I just used to talk to especially to like an especially hostile subset of advocates and now I've adjusted my bubble. Maybe that's what happened, I don't know. I think we're actually moving in a really good, promising direction, having lots of healthy discourse and, you know, also thanks to platforms like yours.
James:Yeah, interesting. I definitely feel a shift. I think coalitions are more plausible and more likely to happen than they were in the past. I still feel like, yeah, the age old debates rise every now and then, naturally. But yeah, I think it's a nudge in the right direction. Do you think so, james?
Amy:It's funny. Yeah, julia, I thought you were going to say the complete opposite. So you know, this is like a pleasant surprise, but maybe I think on the whole, things are feeling good. But I mean, still on my mind is, you know, the conversation with Ben Newman from Animal Rising, or like PETA targeting certifiers in the US, animal Rising targeting RSPCA in the UK. So there's definitely, in some ways, I think, that infighting has now become full-on campaigning against each other, which is not ideal. So, yes, some glimmers of sadness, some glimmers of hope professionalize infighting.
Amy:I know it's not good, so today we're talking about a topic that I know nothing about, so I'll probably be quite quiet, I think for this for real.
James:I'll probably be quite quiet, I think, for this. Oh, for once, For real.
Amy:I know Everyone will be very happy to hear that we're going to be talking about parenting within the movement. So, like I said, something I know nothing about, but something that affects. I actually have no idea how many people in the movement who, like working, are parents, so maybe that's an interesting place to start. But, yeah, I guess talking about to what extent our movements, whether it's in the organizations or in the events we host, is actually welcoming to people with children. So I guess, maybe, julia, to kick this off, I guess, why do you think this is an important thing? And, yeah, how has it affected you personally?
Julia:I think that's actually a great question. How many people are parents that are working in our space? I would guess from my personal experience and network and like connections, I think it's actually few. I don't think we have a lot of parents, mainly due to the fact that it's a fairly young movement. That's my guess. I'm guessing that will change over the next few years. We'll see more and more people deciding to have kids and, yeah, I'm excited to explore with you guys, like what the challenges are and what the hope is that I'm trying to cover that.
James:Can you maybe help us to understand your personal setup and how this relates to you and your experience?
Julia:So I am in my mid-30s. I've worked in the animal protection slash sustainable food space, I would say for about a decade, so I started basically right out of college. I'm married to an economist, who is certainly an ally, but also in many ways outside of this movement, which, by the way, I found really grounding from the start, and I still do. We have two sons one is four years old and the other one is half a year old and we just recently decided to move across the globe, from Germany to San Francisco.
James:Yeah, wow, what inspired that move initially.
Julia:Initially it was my husband's job. He is now working for the Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco, the Fed. It's turned out to be just a really good move for both of us professionally, which I'm happy to get into, like in terms of how location matters, when you like, navigate both. You know private and professional challenges. So very happy to have done this move, Although it was, you know, challenging bureaucratically, but that's a different story.
Amy:US visas can be challenging. I know if anyone who's been to the, to the to the us for work. It's so stressful going through customs, even when you're there for like very legitimate reasons, but the questioning is so intense and I can't imagine what moving is like. 10 times that.
Amy:Do you just want to give us like a overview in your mind of, like, why is this important to you? Like in what way have you kind of been like negatively impacted by how the movement like doesn't cater enough for people with children? Yeah, kind of curious in your words how this is a lot to you.
Julia:Yeah. So I never actually considered the impact on my career when, when I decided to have children, like I was really passionate about my work and I also equally always knew I was going to have children at some point where I wanted to have children. So those things like they were always both true and when I watched other parents struggle, even in like my close circle, I never thought for some reason that was going to be me. Like maybe you can tell I'm I can be pretty stubborn or I have like stubborn character traits, but I would say I was very optimistic about my own capabilities and of course like of course exclamation mark I struggle now but like you know, I I just never considered this from the, from the get-go.
Julia:And then, you know, at some point in my, in my career, there were like several situations when I was told, oh, you know it's, it's not possible to be as impactful and as efficient when you have kids because, obviously, like everybody, everybody's day has 24 hours. So, like you know, there's only so much you can do and your priorities are going to change. You won't give as much, you know, to the movement as you were able to get before, essentially telling me it's an either or right. And I hate like being put in a situation where I have to pick between things that are like both just really close to my heart and that, like I, I really became like serious inside, like I felt trapped, I felt like I had my back against the wall, you know. And and those situations really made me want to prove, like obviously to those people, but also to myself, like hell, yeah, I can have both, I, I will do that. Like there's no way I'm I'm gonna pick, you know.
Julia:And then, of course, there's this aspect of, like you know, men are never confronted with those questions and like my feminist side was like rebelling, but it's funny I I'm noticing more and more that, like the true modern new feminists, they're actually rather saying like aren't we putting even more burden on women if we tell them you can have it all? You can breastfeed in meetings, you can lead workshops eight months pregnant? So I guess, like either my kind of feminism is like pretty old school now or, you know, maybe I should, I should update. But that's essentially like where this, this topic, came from and I'm still feeling pretty passionate about it.
James:No, I'm really glad you brought it to us. I think it does affect, you know, a subset of our movement role. You know making hopefully robust policies to support parents, to be able to be sustainable advocates in the space. So you know, I can definitely relate to some of what you're saying. I think it's still definitely a part of the like rhetoric. Even here in the UK there was a recent election of the Conservative Party leaders and the last remaining two one male, one female, both had children. But you know the press story was from a lot of Conservative politicians to suggest that she would be too distracted because she has young kids. He also had young kids but seemingly like wasn't equally sort of treated with the same rhetoric. So it's definitely still alive and kicking and you know, our movement is absolutely no exception. Even though we are empathetic, we're obviously incredibly focused on a really important cause, but I think that human element is also unfortunately sometimes really left behind. So yeah, it's a really important topic.
Amy:I think our movement is kind of predominantly, you know, like women. I don't know what the exact numbers are, but I think, in terms of people working in NGOs on like animal advocacy, I think the numbers are like definitely like around the 60 plus percent. So, and then you think and most people generally do tend to have children, so it's like a quite substantial chunk of, you know, our human power, so to speak. You know it is going to want this, to go through this at some point. So it's like, how do we do it? In ways that means, you know, we don't actually almost like push people to leave and, you know, go somewhere else where there's better setups. And, julie, then, how have you found it in terms of the organizations you've worked in or the spaces you've been to Like? Is there like specific things that stick out as like oh, I've seen this really great example in another organizational movement like we should have this or you actually these things really don't work well, like what sticks out as things we could improve on?
Julia:I think the main like buzzword is normalizing. Like if I feel like if we want to see women in leadership, some of those women will be pregnant at certain times in their lives and some will be sick. I threw up multiple times a day for months during both of my pregnancies. It can be hard. Some will be super exhausted. Some will need help from us super exhausted, some will need help from us.
Julia:Talking about things like miscarriages, what does that do to a couple, to a family?
Julia:Premature birth, depression, that is life happening.
Julia:We're all human beings and those of us who decide not to have kids, they might have a parent they need to take care of they companion animals, they might have health conditions, they might struggle in their relationships or with like things we don't even know about, because everybody has, you know, a backpack that they like bring with them to to their jobs and they're just like a human being. You know it's not enough to, you know, read or post, like one LinkedIn post about these topics. Like we really have to acknowledge that we are human beings with complex life stories, no matter if we have kids or not, and that life can be hard sometimes, you know, and I think normalizing these human topics by talking about them. That's like the first step. And then you know, we talk about like certain policies or like how to how to help people in their, in their workplace, but I feel like, overall, we don't see enough examples and we don't talk about these topics enough to to like fully acknowledge them and be prepared to, you know, have those conversations in the nitty-gritty of the like individual organizations.
James:Yeah, yeah, I think it's a really interesting observation because I think I've always really separated my work and advocacy from being a parent and actually, you know, even if there was like meetups, for example, where it's specifically for parents, I never really thought like to attend because, yes, I'm a parent, but I think it was like in a work setting. So it felt as though actually I don't know that I would like be able to contribute or gain something from that. But I do agree with you actually that just bringing another set of experiences to that conversation, yeah, I'm starting to feel as though actually those two do and should be a part of the conversation of how this movement functions and should be able to support parents in a similar situation.
Julia:Yeah, totally, and there are just so many different ways to do it. You would be surprised what people might learn from you, from your specific example, and how you might inspire someone who is there and heard you talk for like two minutes. I've had that happen. People come back months after and say like oh, you said this one thing at that one meetup and that really changed the way way I look at things.
James:then you never know who you might be inspiring yeah, yeah, absolutely, and actually, when you were saying about a LinkedIn post, I feel as though that is an amazing step and something that you obviously did. I remember you commenting and talking a lot about parenting and working from home and there's a very specific image I can see of you sitting with your son at your desk and, yeah, that was incredibly inspiring. So I do actually think you absolutely need to take some credit for bringing that conversation to the movement, and even this conversation today, so that we can try and learn a bit more and hopefully make the space more sustainable.
Julia:I feel like we do. You know, coming back to your point, james, we do work in a relatively family unfriendly movement like, especially compared to other parts of the nonprofit sector, right Like which is crazy when you think about it. Like all the social movement nonprofits they're like super family friendly, like it's really a just an interesting subset of people. I guess that gather in the animal world and, you know, being confronted with like kind of anti-natalist arguments is definitely emotionally challenging. While I find them ethically really interesting and like I think it's an interesting conversation to have, philosophically, I still feel like, you know, it's challenging to be confronted in your very personal life, like it's one thing if I talk about something like on a theoretical level, but then you know someone like basically attacking you as a person is different.
James:Just a clarifying question. So you said about the other movements being much more family friendly. Can you just try and help us to understand what you mean by that? Is there specifics you can pinpoint so I know?
Julia:a lot of people who work in the nonprofit world but focusing on social justice aspects, like working with families, working with, you know, health related cause areas, working with lawyers, and like human rights issues and all of those areas within the nonprofit world are much more like used to working with employees that have families and that you know have kids and the challenges around that, compared to people working with within the animal movement. On the one hand seems natural, because seems natural because obviously we're not dealing with humans in our work, we're mostly dealing with animal issues. But you would think that people the wish to work for a better world, a more just world, would share those values as well. But that's not necessarily true, I guess.
James:It was always the human bit, wasn't it? Even in all of the infighting that you alluded to at the beginning? It's like, oh, we do all this for animals and then we forget about the human bit, that we should be kind to each other as well. So you're talking specifically there about exposure, then. So the fact that their cause is more exposed to these topics. You feel as though that helps when creating policies, when trying to understand people and employees in this situation, because that's the topic that they're working on, whereas for us, all of our energy and focus is put into, obviously, animals. And so then, with that lack of exposure, perhaps we're just not as confident in creating suitable policies or understanding how we can better support parents.
Julia:Yeah, I think that's a good summary. Yeah, I would agree with that I think what you said before is right.
Amy:I guess the confluence of the two factors of like, I think people in the movement generally a bit younger than than other issues, and there is definitely like an anti-natalist, like a streak amongst some activists which I don't think it's like you know, it's like clearly feeding into organizations or work.
Amy:But you know there is some element of there is some like hostility or, like you know, uncertainty which well, even if it's, like you know, held internally and weekly, it just means there's less people having children because you know they don't feel like that's the best thing for them, which again kind of drives down how often it happens in organizations and, like you said, it stops things being normalized too much. It is very cool when there's people like yourself too much. It is very cool when there's people like yourself and also I think leah garters is very much like this, you know bringing her, at least one of her children, to the mercy for animals, gala, and I guess it's very cool to me and kind of like normalizing this thing of like. You can be a very successful leader and you know, have several children and you know that's totally normal yeah, I think there's a third stream there as well.
James:That comes from the certainly from my experience, from the effect ultra space of this like efficiency sense of every single second being spent on the course that you're passionate about and, I think, founding a charity, for example, people expecting you to do 50, 60 hours a week, and it's like as a parent.
James:I think actually it was in the Aaron Ross episode and he was saying that working your day around the work and then just heading to the gym and you know it's six and I'm like I am like stressed out from the school run at that point. So I think there's just this sense that, like you know and we spoke about it, um, a couple of weeks ago on the episode with Haven as well I sort of questioned this sense of like high agency and how privileged is that? Because you know I would love to get more done but I have responsibilities as a parent. So I think there's maybe a little thread coming through there as well, from this sense of efficiency and perhaps children like getting in the way of doing more good is an impression I certainly get.
Julia:I think it's a really important observation that, while, yes, there are certain times in our life where we feel like we can spend 50, 60 plus hours passionately working and then like heading to the gym, those are like for for the vast majority of people limited, a limited amount of years that you know we're, like, physically capable to do that, we're willing to do it, we don't have any other responsibilities.
Julia:For most people, those times change and again, this is not just you know, I'm not just talking about people having kids. Like people have all sorts of responsibilities outside of their jobs. You know, like I mentioned before, people might have health issues, people might have parents they need to take care of, people might have legal stuff going on and complicated life situations outside of what you do you know as your profession. So, yes, I agree with you. Like it is a kind of a privileged, you know, situation to be in and I would argue, many, many of those people who are now, you know, giving 50, 60 hours. That will change in a few years and you know there will be other times when, maybe when we're 50 and 60 and 70, like maybe that you know those times will come back and we'll be able to give more again. Like it's always a balance, you know, and it's always it comes in waves, like just like anything in life.
Amy:Oh, so on the effect of ultrasound. Well, for people who are interested, I guess more of this. Rob Wiblin, who also recently had a kid, had a whole episode on parenting on the 80,000 Hours podcast. I haven't actually listened to it because I thought it was not super relevant for me, but for people who are interested they should check it out. And well, it was fun. I hosted like a backgammon night and Rob came over with his child. It was very cute. Slightly tough with backgammon because he kept swiping at the pieces, but anyway it was very fun.
James:I feel like it's an interesting point though, james, because I hope that that doesn't happen with this episode that people go, oh, it's about parenting, I don't have kids, I don't need to listen. That's like worst case scenario for this episode that actually we think, oh, it doesn't affect me, so I don't need to listen. I feel as though, actually, this episode is for people that are not parents, who could make life easier in the movement for those that do, to understand their position. So I think it's such a great point and actually I hope and maybe we can put in the you know, almost like hide it as a topic.
James:So that people don't think it's not relevant to them yeah, definitely adjust the title, yeah yes, yes, good point. Yeah, julia, on the most controversial views ever and then just straight into half an hour of parenting discussion.
Amy:But yeah, I want to ask you a question on location. I think you obviously you've only recently moved to the us, but I know there's both like laws that are very different. For example, in the uk you need to assume the person is going to take, you know, basically a standard of one year off from maternity leave and you can't ask them to come back sooner unless they themselves propose. I think that's very different. In the? U I had a friend, claire, who recently had a child. She was back at work within, I think, like three months, so very quickly. So I'm curious, like how does the geographic and legal landscape affect this and what can organizations do to, I guess, be a bit more fair?
Julia:Yeah, absolutely, location matters in many different ways. Certainly, you know, we've experienced this when we moved to the US, the you know the type of childcare and you know the minimum standards are very different from Germany. It's not necessarily only in one way. Our older son, who's four years old, he goes to preschool from eight to five, which is completely unheard of in Germany, like I was, you know, when I picked him up in Germany. I picked him up at like around four and I was like always the last person to come, always, like you know, getting the views from, like the caretakers.
Julia:Oh, here she comes, you know, headphones in, like still in a meeting, rushing to the school, and they're like looking at me all, all judgmental um judgmental and here it's like completely normal that people show up at 4 55, which now it sounds like, oh, that's an hour, but like an hour can mean a lot when you think about the logistics. And then then they start at eight and it's just like completely normal here and they're playing all afternoon, that they love it. And my son wants to be there first and picked up last, so he's like, yeah, completely happy. So it's a different type of environment. For sure, when you think about toddlers, for the baby situation, I would say it's the opposite.
Julia:Germany is much more generous, I guess, as a, you know, as a state, for people who have very, very young kids. I would encourage, you know, organizations to really lean into flexible work arrangements. Obviously a lot of us do work remotely, flexible hours, etc. Learn about paid parental leave policies and promote a like no guilt for family needs policy in you know, whether it be children or or other family needs in your organization. And, yeah, try to adopt like the the best practices, even if you're the country that you might be located in, kind of goes with the minimum standards and like really try to aim for advanced goals within your organizations.
James:it's interesting that you said there about having like family, no guilt, family friendly sort of policies, because actually I imagine most orgs have companion animal similar sort of policies.
James:Right, like if some mom was saying I need to quickly take my dog, I feel like that would get less judgment than, oh, I need to go and pick my kid up from school early or something. So yeah, it's kind of interesting. Like maybe if you don't have experience of being a parent, think about if it was their companion animal, would you feel like less, yeah, confronted by them wanting to go and help the animal. Perhaps that's uh more common than than being a bit more family friendly. Yeah, totally. Yeah, it is difficult, especially when people are working internationally. I know, I know av, you have people working uh in in lots of different jurisdictions and so I think just going on the sort of more generous side to hopefully get those people back into the movement and you know, we would absolutely lose so much more if they then took time off and couldn't afford to return or couldn't afford their maternity and we lost that expertise in the space so it seems like a good rule of thumb.
Julia:Yeah, definitely, and there's, you know, a lot of parent resource groups on the Hive Slack channel. Shout out to the Hive colleagues. There is parent calls that I'm a part of, that I know others are part of. Feel free to reach out and join us. Another great resource I would like to recommend to everyone is Emily Oster. She's an economist having a very evidence-based approach and like a non-judgmental tone. Her books and newsletters are amazing and they have very like actionable insights for busy parents that they can apply to their real lives.
James:So, yeah, we link those in the resources, as always.
James:And you talk about the policies there and being a bit more family friendly, and I think often this occurs when you know I definitely remember situations being involved in organizations where the first time they're even considering a maternity policy is when someone's asked if there is one because they need to go off on maternity leave, and so I wonder how you feel policy is when someone's asked if there is one because they need to go off on maternity leave, and so I wonder how you feel making these types of decisions and policies and you know, just assuming that you're a big advocate for having them in place. But is there any way that you feel differently about these topics as a parent yourself and a mother, but also as an employer and someone who is like leading a very early stage organization with a few members of staff? Is there anything that differs between those two things that you find difficult, that you would be more lenient, perhaps in policies as a parent yourself that you you know you can't implement as much as as an employer, anything that comes up there?
Julia:Well, I think there are always certain limits within which we need to operate as employers or as just reasonable human beings, right, like you know, some people might love that idea, but it's not going to be possible to like implement a two to three year full paid parental leave, um, but I don't really think that that is what people are asking for. I think people, especially in our movement, are being very reasonable and very willing to find win-win solutions, to find a good, healthy policy that works for everyone, and that is what we should all strive for. Like this is not to implement like crazy asks that are not even being asked, like I don't think that's, it's basically a non-issue in my experience.
Amy:So, obviously, julie, you lead ava international, which hosts the ava summits, these large conferences I'm sure many listeners have attended, or, if not, I would encourage you to attend. So what's something that you guys personally at Ava have done to make your events, I guess, more inclusive to children and families, or like what's some things you'd like to do in the future or in an aspirational world?
Julia:We're trying to become more family friendly. Step bystep. Every year We've included a much more friendly child ticket tier. This year we are thinking about implementing babysitting or child care services at the venues themselves. Obviously, people are very happy to bring their kids, encouraged to bring their kids.
Julia:There is little to no graphic imagery in the presentations at AVA. We definitely consider that an important factor. If there are very young people in the room. There is again a set of limits that we need to take. We need to take into consideration, like, especially the child care services on site. There there are a lot of liability and insurance type um limits that we need to, you know, consider from a from a practical standpoint. Like I know my toddler certainly would not just stay with a random new person in this random new room, right, like, play for two hours, like that's just, like you know, with young kids it's certainly not gonna work out. So we're always very, very happy to get feedback on our policies and on ideas people might have to implement. We um do surveys frequently. We get a lot of emails. We, like are in close conversations with you know people, people in the movement and, yeah, happy to get, happy to hear what you know what would help people else.
James:Yeah, it's interesting. I saw the child tier and there's a couple of things for me, because I think again, I don't know if this is on like Ava's side or on the employer side, but most people's tickets are covered by their employer, I would imagine. So the charities you know pay for you to attend.
Julia:But then it's likely and, I think, remind me how much the child ticket is kids from from zero to six are free, and and then from seven to 12, it's $180 for the US event.
James:Yeah, yeah, okay. So yeah, I was thinking, oh, like maybe we could take. You know we have a nine-year-old, but then obviously that's like an expense on us, right? So again, I don't know if that's like an employer thing, but it feels different for me in my head financially to then think about taking her. And then, second of all, I feel as though I wonder what your thoughts are on whether your kids might attend in the future, because James and I my partner and I both work in this space.
James:We both attend ABA. We're very fortunate to have child care help over here. She stays with my family for the week that we're away in the US. Has the thought of maybe some kind of like pressure that once kids start attending Ava and there feels like there's more kids there, I'm sort of like, oh, I now feel like terrible for leaving her at home because technically she could come, she's allowed to be there. Actually that's super sacred time for us and we actually just get to go and be at a conference and be adults and for the whole week we have no parenting responsibilities. So I'm kind of torn because on the one hand, you know, it's amazing that she could go, but there's maybe some additional pressure there where it feels like, yeah, well, like negligent for leaving her behind.
Julia:I completely hear you, but I feel like within the next, say, decade at least you know those things will like level out or how do you say like they will find a healthy balance and you know sometimes people will bring their kids. It's going to be more normal to see younger people. You know we talk about next generation a lot Like how to motivate the next generation of advocates. Generation, yeah, like how to motivate the next generation of advocates. How to you know? I know there's this new podcast now, uh, you know, raising gen v by uh, naomi and um. It starts with us right. So, like we are the advocates now and and I believe you know this will be a big issue in uh in the next few years and how to deal with that as a movement. To you personally, please don't feel bad for not bringing your kids. Also, if you want to bring your kids, please don't feel bad to bring them. Whatever works for you.
James:Yeah, it's good to have that flexibility. Thanks.
Julia:Yeah, maybe about the, because you were asking about the ticket tiers and I could tell like, oh well, you know, still, like you know, significant amount. Thinking about pricing for our conferences is obviously a very essential question. It all starts with the amount of money that we need to spend on food and beverage per person so for the us event. I'm going to stick with that example because that's what we talked about earlier.
James:The.
Julia:F&B. So the food and beverage per person is roughly $550 for one of those summits. So that's the amount of money that we need to pay to the hotel in order to have our attendees fed and taken care of. So there's always service fees and this is how the hotel makes money, right? We don't pay as much for the rooms. It's really just about food and beverage. So we're essentially losing money with each ticket that we sell. That is below those $550, which is a lot of our tiers those 550 dollars which is a lot of our tears, like it's the the whole, the whole.
Julia:Like early bird, all the discounted tickets, all the kids, all the like students and and so on. This might be interesting for people who are not in the event space. The way hotels calculate how many people ate is per couplery set so like. They count the amount of forks and knives that are used at the buffets and therefore a child that uses their own fork and knife will cost us $550, no matter like how much food they had. So that is a consideration that we have when we set our ticket tiers. Obviously, we know that some advocates struggle and some groups struggle to cover ticket costs for their attendees. That is why we do go below the $550. But for us on the back end, we need to bring in that money otherwise and raise more funds and cover that.
Amy:The thing I'm taking away from that is, everyone should bring their own knife and fork, and then we will cost you nothing.
James:I did not say that like don't put that in my mouth very suspicious.
Amy:Everyone has their own type of wear, their own bamboo knife and fork yeah, thanks for your transparency there.
James:It's definitely part of the conversation of most conferences and I think so often I know you put out the like how much does an ava summit cost? Because it is just such a contentious topic. Right, we're thinking about how the money can be best spent and I guess you have very little control over how much the hotel they're going to charge for food and beverages. So, yeah, I know it's definitely a topic that's spoken about a lot, so it's useful to get your transparency on that before we speak about Ava more broadly, I'm curious to get your transparency on that.
Amy:Before we speak about Ava more broadly, I'm curious to get your views on something you mentioned at the very beginning, which is you know how where you live can have, you know, major impacts on maybe your, maybe your personal life is an obvious one, but I think you're kind of introducing also your professional life. And, yeah, I'm kind of curious to hear how your move to, I guess, from Germany to the Bay Area in the US has kind of affected, I guess from Germany to the Bay Area in the US has it kind of affected, I guess, your views on this and kind of what you've learned in this process.
Julia:Yeah, I mean 100%. It definitely has a huge impact and, you know, living on the US West Coast has really shown me how relevant location can be in the professional context. Now I can have lunch with funders, with some of our major sponsors, at the conferences, with like other movement leaders, with activists, with like.
Julia:When I lived in frankfurt, germany, which is not berlin, um, I was the only person working in animal advocacy with like a radius of I don't know, like at least 100 miles. There's no way I would ever meet anyone for lunch. Can you imagine what it's like to work in a country where you might be the only one working in this field professionally in your whole country or like in your whole region, like it is so essential that we bring people together physically and in person frequently to like make those differences smaller for people working in this field I've lived in london for the last 10 years and I definitely agree there's like huge kind of like network effects from being in a hub with lots of other advocates, and not even necessarily like from your own issue but from other issues, and you know, just like this interesting cross pollination that happens.
Amy:And I think this is one of the real downsides of almost all groups have, which is, you know, remote working. I think you know it's all well and good. You know, mean I spent like eight months traveling latin america, which is great, but also, yeah, you really do miss out on some like human connection and like interesting discussions and pollination of ideas. You just don't get online. And I think I just want to think it is a bit of a shame that basically no animal group has like nhq or a hub that they work in and everyone's in, because, yeah, I think there is some sadness, like something we're missing out on there, but obviously it's a trade-off between that and you know flexibility and how that affects parenting and everything else I totally agree and like can you imagine how powerful it would be to have a vegan hub quote-unquote in you know?
Julia:and there are obviously like hubs like that in the world, like the bay area being one, london being one, berlin there's, singapore there is, you know, certain regions in the Middle East, like Tel Aviv, you know, or Nairobi in Kenya, sao Paulo in Brazil. There's like definitely a lot of hubs for the movement. But like, how great would it be to frequently bring together and work together all of the people living in that hub and like, finally, ideally, like reaching, reaching like a tipping point in in those very concrete local areas, like that would be, that could be really powerful to have, like you know, campaigns or or events going on in in those regions and, yeah, and aim for that tipping point. That's. That's something that only can be done in person.
James:It it will only happen when people get creative and are together physically and and like work together in person I totally agree, like the feeling we get when we come back from an ABA summit or any conference that we attend. It's always equal parts exhaustion and invigoration. Right, we just spoke with so many people who were working on incredible topics that we didn't even know existed and yeah, there's nothing like it. I completely agree, especially for that networking, I think, speaking with funders actually using it as an opportunity to meet your own team. You know there's times where, like, actually like it.
James:I completely agree, especially for that networking, I think, speaking with funders actually using it as an opportunity to meet your own team. You know there's times where, like, actually convening at a conference has been the first time I've met members of my own team, yeah, so, yeah, I think it just it helps you let your guard down. I think this remote working it's not super conducive of wholesome relationships. I think we need to see people in person and build those, and then it makes the remote work so much easier when we felt like we know the person more.
Amy:So with that, should we segue into? I guess already, julie, you're getting impassioned by these regional hubs in different parts of the world and, yeah, I guess you know how powerful that could be. So I'm kind of curious, yeah, what's your vision for? I guess you know just the US event, now it's going to different continents. What's your vision for these regional events and what do you kind of hope to achieve with that?
Julia:so from the very early ava days, we made a really clear decision and a choice that this event, this conference, will not only be a us centric conference, like, yes, we will have a conference in the us every year and there are very good reasons to do so. But what we wanted to achieve essentially from the very beginning was global participation. So this is a global movement. We're facing global problems. If anything, regions like Southeast Asia or Latin America are arguably more relevant than the US. Southeast Asia or Latin America are arguably more relevant than the US.
Julia:So we fundraised for a regranting program or regranting system that we call travel awards. From the very beginning and soon, you know, after the first summit in the US, like we realized okay, there is absolutely no way we can bring all of those intrabable advocates to the US. There are hundreds of organizations working in Asia and Africa and Latin America and there's no way, like we meet events and conferences with local partners on the ground everywhere in the world, not just in the US. And obviously another reason like that's kind of the other side of this argument is we also need the funders, who are mostly based in the US, to go to those regional events and to see themselves and to talk to people and to meet people on the ground in person. So those two sides, I guess, are the most important arguments for us?
James:Yeah, for sure. I guess that would be my concern, that those people then have less access to the funders if they're more likely to attend their regional one. Has that been successful? Have you had a good amount of funders attending the regional events? So far it's been really interesting to watch them.
Julia:watch us for, like the first year and the first time that there's a regional conference or a regional event, and then the first time that you know there's a regional conference or regional event.
James:And then the second time they're like oh yeah, we're definitely go Right Like it's always oh yeah, we'll go this year.
Julia:So yeah, it's a slow start and it's been a slow start, but I do think the interest is there and people really appreciate the opportunity once they are there. Of course, there's always opportunity costs to travel and there's the whole time zone issue and it's a long trip. But the funders that we talk to who do go to regional events, they always really appreciate the setup there and I think once you've seen that and you you understand why it's it's so crucial and it is different from just meeting people in in the us, meeting a very small subset of people in the us yeah, and you have regional coordinators who run those events.
James:I guess making a program that is relevant in those countries where these regional events are based must be tricky when you're based in this hub of San Fran. How does that work in terms of devising the program for the regional events.
Julia:Obviously, as you know, the public is welcome to submit proposals and we receive hundreds of submissions for a very limited amount of speaking slots. So there need to be decisions made and, like, our main sounding board is an advisory committee for each region. So obviously we work with different people for different events and they help us make decisions around the program and the speakers, you know, focusing on very specific strategies and interventions and learnings to keep the takeaways as useful as possible, like and keep self promotion of groups as little as possible. You know there's always a balance of that bringing a diversity of experiences and perspectives. So we have a certain scoring system in place for each of those events and work with a specific committee.
Amy:Can I ask more about that, like how you choose what to prioritize at each event and also like you know which formats you find work best. So I'm going to give my personal bug there with Ava events.
James:I hope that's okay, here we go.
Amy:Hot take. I know, I know I'm sure you've heard it before. I was going to say you don't exactly hold back when you have opinions about stuff. I know, I know, but I think it's useful. People say the podcast is more interesting when people are a bit more uh forthcoming with their opinions.
Amy:So I'm trying to role model, uh totally yeah like I'm sure there's like two things probably ava gets so much criticism for right, one's probably pricing, one's probably the program. So I don't envy your position at all. For me it's with these. Sometimes there's panels where it feels like there's like somewhat disparate topics that have been like kind of thrown together. I think what I've heard anecdotally behind the scenes is like people apply for individual talks and, like you said, there's way too many applications. So then they're kind of like put together into these small 15 minute well whatever panels, but like we're not always a super coherent thread or you know the unifying panel, rather it's just a series of short talks. I guess. Am I wrong in this?
Julia:tell me more about this that is exactly how we do it we call it joint session. This is the most common format. People have a presentation that is, you know, roughly 15 to 20 minutes, and then they're paired with other people who talk on similar topics in the same session, do a joint Q&A.
Julia:At the end it's not really a panel, because people don't interact Like you said you know it's kind of like small short presentations followed by you know more of like kind of in the same in the same topic. That is how we've been doing it so far.
Amy:I'm happy to hear ideas about how to do it differently with that many applications I mean, the only thing I would suggest is like you, just almost like double down or like I don't sometimes prefer just like one person like gets it, so to speak, and like we kind of hear like they're they're full views and it's like a q a with them, because because then you get to explore the idea in a bit more depth.
Amy:And yeah, because I find the panel when it's like you know there's no, you're just asking Q&As, it just seems a little bit awkward for everyone else and you know, and I'd almost like rather give someone the space to expand and then just go for that.
Julia:Yeah, absolutely. And I mean I was, you know, joking a bit, I was saying like yeah, this is how we do it. But, yeah, no, I totally hear you and we've been experimenting with, like you know, larger form discussion panels and standalone keynotes and like you know, kind of a mix in between, and there's always like the obvious pros and cons.
Julia:Like you get to hear more voices and you have like shorter slots or in larger panels, versus you get to go more in depth with one person giving a specific workshop or doing a keynote, go more in depth with one person giving a specific workshop or doing a keynote. So you're going to see us experimenting more this year, because obviously we do get criticized in either way. So just trying out different things in different formats, yeah, nice, we're definitely interested in getting more interactive programming on stage. Like we've been getting a lot of good feedback about very interactive workshops, um, where, like people can participate more. It's funny because you you've asked like what are you most criticized for? Like I really think the overall, the food is what people I think the food is great for what it's worth.
Amy:Yeah, it's like always some of the best food I have. You know it's delicious. So, like, what are they complaining about? Yeah, well, I great for what it's worth. It's always some of the best food I have. It's delicious. What are they complaining about?
Julia:Yeah, well, I mean, it's always both ways, right? Oh, it's such fancy food. You're spending so much money on the food. Just give us beans and rice. That's fine. And other people are like what was that? We need high-quality vegan food, and why don't you implement?
Amy:I don't know dr gregor's daily dozen. Why is it not all perfect, whatever? Why is it not?
Julia:why is it not all all perfect, so, and?
Julia:And that is followed by um venue criticisms, you know. On a more serious note, of course, there are a lot of people saying like why do you go to the as expensive hotels? And like, why is it and we just published a survey on this like hotel versus not hotel and it's like roughly 50-50 of what you know people prefer, because there are a lot of people say like it's amazing that you could just go upstairs and, you know, go to bed whenever you want and you like have all this networking and that you stay in one location. Everybody is kind of like the whole hotel is like buzzing with you know advocates and you meet people everywhere and there's all this synergy versus the people that say like, okay, you know, can we spend this money elsewhere? Regarding the program, in a similar way, there's like roughly a 50-50 ratio of like criticism with regards to rights versus welfare topics. We get criticized on both ends, like, which we believe means that we're striking the right balance. Right, because, like, apparently people feel like equally aggrieved.
Amy:No, I think generally same same as food. Right, if you're both getting told roughly half half, it's not good enough and it's like too good, and I think you're probably about right yeah, and you know about the venues.
Julia:It's also hard to um like surprisingly hard to find venues who can hold a conference that size for that many days. We need like certain size ballrooms, exhibit spaces, um workshop rooms. You know the breakouts, the the whole registration area. There's like not a lot of hotels that can hold conferences this size and there's usually the ones that are a bit on the nicer side.
James:Do you think, based on the feedback, you would try a year in more like a conference venue? So maybe it's not a hotel and you don't stay there. Like I know, the care conference has never been held at a hotel and still super popular. I think there is a great sense of connection. There's like social events on the evenings. Do you think it's something you would look to in the future? Yeah, definitely.
Julia:So we've done. The last conference in Latin America in Sao Paulo was held at a convention center, so like a very different setting, different environment, and we collaborated with the local VegFest, which was amazing. Obviously, similarly like, people were happy or unhappy about that, but we were definitely experimenting and, you know, might consider a university setting for one of our upcoming events. But again, there is like a lot of synergies that can be created in a venue where people can stay if they want to, like they don't have to, you can always like stay outside, but that's it's a big trade-off for sure.
Amy:Yeah, I mean, I personally, quite like you know you've had, you know, eight meetings in a row. You just want to go lie down for a bit in a quiet room, and it's so nice having a room, a few floors as well. So, yeah, I personally, for one, totally uh value uh that closeness. So we've talked about things we're criticized for. So food, big one food venue, um and program what about what do people like the most, or what are you most proud of?
Julia:I think it's the fact that we turned what could have become a very us centric conference into a truly international platform for the movement. I think that's what people appreciate most and that that is also what we're most proud of, for sure.
James:Do you have anything? I guess James has had his opportunity to give his hot take. I wonder if you have any kind of.
James:I wonder if you have any sense of something you wish you could communicate to attendees. I know there's like challenges with people not attending the sessions and having the meetings I know you're very passionate about, like if it's a group session that's being organized, that they're outside of the programming. Is there something that you feel as though attendees are missing out on? Perhaps like a bugbear that you have with attendees where they missing out on, perhaps like a book bear that you have with attendees where they could actually get more out of the conference?
Julia:there is a subset of attendees that I'm thinking of when hearing this question, which is the funders. Yes, james, the funders usually are and it's not it's like not all of their fault, obviously they're usually like completely booked up with one-on-ones. Yeah. So, like I know very, very few funders who actually go sit in sessions here and there and like are in touch with, like what's actually going on at the at the end. Yeah, the vast majority of them is like either in the lobby or in like a meeting room constantly and like just completely booked out, and that is something that I think is hurting both.
Julia:You know us as a music, speaking from a from a movement perspective like we don't get to share as much of our content, of our work, of our ideas and get in touch with funders throughout this unique in-person time that we have together throughout the year, and also for them it's a shame because they don't get to participate.
Julia:Because they don't get to participate, yeah. So we are actually considering recommending you know we're doing grantee day at the US conference for one day pre-summit. Like you know, the whole Thursday is like efficient matchmaking between groups and funders who have not had the chance to meet before, and then we're considering to recommend that on Friday, the day after, people actually keep their calendar clear and not do one-on-ones, and I know that a lot of funders also feel bad to say no to people when they get approached they get all of those messages on the event app, hova, and on eBay email email and that they feel bad to reject meeting invites. But I think it would be really crucial to get more of this shared experience and discussions that happen throughout the sessions and after the sessions and in the hallways, shared with this subset of attendees that is, the funders.
Amy:This is a good. Now, when someone asked me for a meeting, I will say no. Julia told me to not take meetings.
Amy:So I will sadly reject everyone, which is great, it's great for me. No, yeah, I think it is tough because it's kind of like rational for groups. Right, you know the groups like we in our case Mobius, we already know it and we fund you know they want to have a chance to kind of like speak to us, update us and, like you know, get some sense, check on. You know how we're feeling about our funding relationship, et cetera, et cetera. And you know people prefer doing that in person and it's like if we say no, you're kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. People like oh, they don't want to meet with me, apparently they're too busy, oh, that's so annoying. So it's like it is a tough place to be in. So it's not clear what the solution is. I think the grantee day is definitely useful. Maybe now that we have some license from you, julia, maybe I will do some more rejections and go to some more talks.
James:So we'll see it's on the attendees as well. Right, like say, there was a day where funders are just free. I imagine them just being like as accosted as they are on a non-free day, you know for like pulling to one side. Oh hey, can we have a chat? I feel like once you know the faces of the funders, it's kind of hard to hide at the conference and actually get chance to just enjoy it for what it is and attend some of the talks. I think you get a lot of friends very quickly.
Julia:Yeah. So I'd be curious to hear you know from your audience, the listeners, like let us know what you think and if there are any like good ideas to solve this problem, because I think again, like people, the movement would benefit from funders being more engaged. And also, james, I totally understand, like, obviously people want to have meetings with their funders in person at those occasions.
Amy:Yeah, yeah, I mean trade-offs, you know, like we've spoken about for most things, you know.
Julia:That could be the title of the session. Julia on trade-offs.
Amy:I mean that'd be interesting.
James:So we've spoken. You know a lot about the conference. Different things, criticisms, praise, maybe. The last topic, then, as you alluded to, is just about how much an Ava Summit costs. I think listeners would be interested in the overall expense, what that goes towards.
Julia:If you can just summarize that, for us that's actually something I should have mentioned in the what are you proud of section, because we are actually very proud of how cost effective AVA is run. So the event production only the event itself for the US event is like roughly $380,000. For the other events in Southeast Asia and Latin America and in Africa we're looking at roughly between $100,000 and $200,000. That is excluding travel awards. Obviously. Like this is for us, you know, as event organizers, this is like money in, money out, right, that's like re-granting. We're giving out roughly between 130 and 150 000 on travel awards per event. So that is, yeah, that definitely just goes, you know, right back into the movement. Um, that's also the event production cost is also excluding like operations and like no, I mean food is in there, food included.
Julia:Okay, cool, cool, cool yeah absolutely that's the biggest part of the event cost. Yeah, I really encourage everyone who thinks that this is expensive. I really encourage you to talk to other event organizers. We have many wonderful conferences in our sector and you can do some comparisons, can do some research, talk to them and let me know after that if you still think is it expensive?
Amy:one benchmark I know is that the effect of altruism global conferences, the ags, mainly big hubs like london and bay area. I think they cost over a million dollars per conference with probably a relatively similar number of attendees, like maybe one to one and a half thousand. So yeah, that's like it's correct. Yeah, almost 3X the cost of Ava, so a pretty big difference.
Julia:Not taking place in a nice hotel Well?
Amy:I mean to be fair to EAG. They are also trying to slim down costs as well. In London a couple of years ago it was an incredibly beautiful location in central London.
Julia:Absolutely. Now it's moving a couple years ago is an incredibly beautiful location in like central London. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, no for sure. Yeah, and the EAGs are amazing.
Amy:So like no, no harsh feelings yeah, yeah, the snack selection is uh unmatched, I would say little throwback to, uh, to the parenting conversation.
James:I had a message one time because you can put on your application if you think you might bring kids and I got contacted just before the ag a couple of years ago in london to say that there's a kid's room. So you know, feel free to go there. There's like a room dedicated to kids. So we were like, awesome, took her she was maybe six at the time, seven and we were like, oh, there's this dedicated room, let's go in there. It's an empty room with one table and a pack of nappies and a pack of uh wipes. No, that was the room.
James:So we were like, okay, maybe they need some support to understand. Like, what does that mean? Like, also, there's bathrooms. Like there's changing facilities. We don't need, like this extra space with some random person who's gone. What do kids need nappies? Okay, cool, let's just like there's changing facilities. We don't need, like this extra space with some random person who's gone. What do kids need Nappies? Okay, cool, let's just get like one size fits all. So, yeah, you know things to improve there as well. Maybe less money spent on snacks, more money spent on being more parent friendly. If that's how you're going to advertise yourself, you know, quite the story.
Amy:That's so sad. Yeah, you know, quite the story. That's so sad. Yeah, thank you so much. This has been super interesting on a range of different topics, so appreciate you talking with us about this. And before we let everyone go, there's a few final questions we'd like to ask everyone, and one of which is what's one bit of news you're grateful about recently?
Julia:So something I'm very excited about with you know wearing my Ava hat is that we're launching a totally new program this year which is AVA Academy. So we're doing essentially professional development trainings and workshops aside of, like, the broad big conference setting with the summits, and we're going to start in may with our first pilot at the us summit and then doing a full academy in india this year at the um ava asia conference so I'm very excited about that.
James:Yeah, awesome, very cool, love that. And you say more about what, what, what you hope to achieve, like what kind of people would attend. Is it part of the normal running of the program?
Julia:yeah, so it's, um, it's not part of the normal running of the program. Yeah, so it's. It's not part of the normal program, so people will have to apply separately. It's a small set of groups like we want to create like really optimal, you know, learning environments for people. So we're doing three tracks in LA. We're doing fundraising, management, slash leadership and law and policymaking. All of those three people can apply for. We're going to have like roughly 20 to 25 slots per track. And then we're doing deep dives into like intensive professional development within the specific track workshops and trainings for one full day in LA and then the full academy happening in India will be three days.
James:So much more intense experience. I think this is so perfect, like you say, when the people are already together, already there, just really maximizing on that time spent. And, as you say, we would probably have those sessions. Say, there was offices and hubs everywhere. We would be having those sessions regularly, as normal businesses would. So aligning those with Ava is awesome. And do you have any media recommendations for listeners? Any books, blog posts, podcasts, anything that's inspired your journey so far?
Julia:I would definitely love to recommend the Boreal Ambition book by Rutger Bregman that just came out a few weeks ago. Book by Rutger Bregman that just came out a few weeks ago. I've been reading it and been very inspired and motivated and fascinated by it. There's also Change how to Make Big Things Happen by Damon Santola. I don't know if you heard about that one Highly recommend it. And then, really, like I said before, anything by emily oster her newsletter, her books, her instagram, anything oh nice, yeah, I'm gonna look into this.
James:I hadn't heard of her, so this is a good reference for me nice, and we'll link all those books and resources below.
Amy:And final question how can people get more involved with your work? So how can they either attend one of these events? Is any job openings? Yeah, how can people get more involved with your work? So how can they either attend one of these events? Is there any job openings? Yeah, how can people get more involved with AVA International?
Julia:Yeah, so we're hiring for a program coordinator at the moment. Please do apply. I'm happy to put the link in the resources You'll find our website, socials newsletter, our conferences. Obviously, there is still the chance to attend the us summit speakers. Submissions are closed by now. But, yeah, more opportunities for the for the rest of the year in india, in nairobi, kenya, and later on in the winter in buenos aires, argentina. That's the newest one.
James:amazing, very nice well, thanks so much, julia I think it's been such an insightful episode.
James:It's certainly, um, the irony does not escape me that we've asked you to come on early, where we can hear your beautiful boys next door. Um, I'm sure you've had to manage the how that's worked to come on the episode. So, thank you so much for spending time on this topic. I think it's been really interesting and much needed. Yeah, I love that you're continuing that conversation on LinkedIn and with those communities that you have on the various slacks, et cetera, now at the conference, which is super exciting. Thanks so much for your time and we look forward to seeing you in person at AVA Absolutely.
Julia:Thank you so much for having me both. Thank you for your work. See you soon.